29/04/2013 Newsnight


29/04/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. Is Britain truly alert to the threat posed by cyber attacks? With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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We have been warned and warned again, but why isn't the Government

:00:13.:00:17.

faking the actions it says are necessary to protect us from cyber

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attack. We discover that much of the money supposedly earmarked for

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cyberdefence has actually been used for cyber attack, and the rest?

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is this underspend? Some people have come back and said we are

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saving money for rainy day. To which my response is but we already

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have a rainy day. The former Home Secretary John Reid fears we are

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not fully in control of the threat. Also tonight, they are fitting bees

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with rural broadband, can these tiny radio aerials tell us whether

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pesticides are really responsible for decimating bee numbers.

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Here in Oxfordshire people don't doubt that bees are under attack,

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they are not all convinced that ban on pesticides will help.

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The geeks shall inherit the earth, we will talk to the man who led

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Barack Obama's mammoth internet campaign to get elected, how did he

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do it? The French Government listed its

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priorities for national defence today, like the Government here it

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is wrestling with how to get a cork out of a pintpot. It is similar too

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in its belief that a threat that simply didn't exist a generation

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ago is now right near the top. Cybersecurity protecting the

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communications systems and computers that make modern life

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liveable was identified three years ago in this country as a key worry.

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An enemy power or bunch of terrorist bombs could achieve more

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with a key strokestroke than an air strike. However -- keystroke than

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an air strike. However we have learned that our Government is slow

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to protect the network. The information society has grown

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so fast it is full of vunerabilities, cyber-crime is

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estimated to have cost �27 billion last year for Britain. The number

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of attacks on computer networks, over 50 billion a year, is growing

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so fast that security experts are losing count. The one thing that is

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absolutely sure that the threat is becoming bigger and stronger.

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threat landscape has changed. We are in state of compromise. The

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adversaries are here in our networks. The coalition Government

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identified this threat as an urgent national priority and has tasked

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spy agencies like GCHQ to respond. The In 2010 the Government promised

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to put cyber-security at the centre of national defence, and to spend

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�650 million doing that. Yet we have heard persistent reports that

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very little has actually been achieved yet.

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So is Britain any safer from cyber attack today than it was three

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years ago? Some aspects of the economy and Government, critical

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national infrastructure, are so important that the computers that

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run them can be intensely vulnerable. Estonian cash machines,

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Saudi oil terminals and a Syrian radar network have all been

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disrupted by cyber attack. This is the London data centre at Telstra

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Global, we house some of the world's critical logistic

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infrastructure. We have infrastructure, financial services

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and broad kags. One of our customers conducts about $ 7

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trillion from this facility every day. For years hackers have been

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stealing secrets, now there are deeper concerns. Two months ago the

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Department of Homeland Security said it had tracked 23 takes on the

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American gas pipeline grid. The intruders had been targeting the

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type of information that would have allowed them to blow up pumping

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stations and cause power cuts. threat landscape in three years has

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changed a lot, now what we see is advanced threat. It is a completely

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different ball game. These attacks are highly targeted, they are

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highly funded, they know what they want. So they will specifically

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target an organisation to do it. So typically they will be after

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intellectual property, it could be to gain competitive advantage,

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national security, it would be defence information or a whole

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bunch of different things. So what happened to the pledge of �650

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million for cyber-security. For months the answer seems to have

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been very little according to one of the architects of Government

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policy. You have this initial explosion of

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interest, and a very high-profile for cyber, then nothing. It slowly

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picked up since. But I think if I were being critical of Government

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it is the leadership issue which is so important. Being clear about

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what your absolute priorities are with that new money. How to spend

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it. I think we are still lacking in those two areas. The Cabinet Office

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in Whitehall is meant to be exercising that leadership. But

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some argue they have failed to act effectively and that much of the

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money pledged by the Government has A number of us have asked why is

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this underspend here. Some have come back and said we are saving

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money for rainy day, to which my response is we already have a rainy

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day every day with cyber. Ask where leed real leadership lies

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and many exports -- where real leadership lies, many say it is

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here at the headquarters here at Cheltenham. The wider security

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business feels the intelligence people make poor information

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sharers. I'm going to talk you through a real example of an take

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we saw. You can see here that I have got a high number of failed

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log ins, coming from Belarus, to me that is suspicious activity.

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Because we don't have locations in Belarus. At RSA they have developed

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numerous computer security product. They have also come under attack

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from hackers, and have chosen to share the details with others.

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looks like they are trying to steal some information, perhaps that is

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on a finance department server. And you can see that a lot of data is

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already being moved out. It is actually going to Uzbekistan. Which

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is not unusual. Typically a lot of these type of activities we see is

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hosted from a third party country. Their view is that openness can

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trump commercial advantage. But the sector is plaged by Government

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agencies and companies that want to conceal their weaknesses.

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threats that I face as a business are different to the threats that

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you face as a business. Until we start collaborating and sharing

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that information I won't be able to learn your perspective and neither

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will you be able to learn mine. That is a critical edge that

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actually doesn't cost a lot of money. We don't really need to

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increase budgets a lot more to collaberate a lot more in those

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specific areas. I think education around the benefits to sharing this

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information and how to share it collaberatively without sharing

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your competitive edge is something to focus on.

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Whilst America has passed legislation saying companies must

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reveal when they have been hacked, Britain hasn't followed suit.

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GCHQ's central role doesn't help in the information-sharing issue

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either. They are not used to GCHQ has many areas of expertise

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and it is a thought leader. How it will look in five or ten years time,

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I don't know, but you will see GCHQ ever more central in the process.

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Perhaps beginning to own some of the policy making and some of the

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strategy making. That will be a challenge for the organisation.

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There is another thing about GCHQ, they, MI6 and MI5 have so far been

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allocated 59% of the planned Government spending, and the

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:09:03.:09:16.

agency's primary business is $:/STARTFEED.. Many people have

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told us much of the new money is being spent targeting other

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country's secrets, you can argue knowledge gained doing that will

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improve Britain's defences. Inevitably GCHQ will approach

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cybersecurity through a certain prism, given it is an intelligence

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agency. The rationale is to collect intelligence, and to be involved in

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operations. So you are probably finding that quite a chunk of the

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new money they were given has gone on sustaining existing capablities

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for computer network exploitation or attack. They are not really

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investing as much in the computer network defence element.

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agencies and particularly GCHQ were developing programmes to enhance

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their abilities and to get a really strong grip on global situational

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awareness, and those programmes benefited very significantly from

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the new funding that was made available. That's offensive?

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that is not offensive that is on- going programmes. But if you are

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goinging to defend effectively you have to understand the attacks that

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will come in against you. So if the cybersecurity spend has

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given a useful boost to the intelligence agencies, how far have

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defences been improved at all? The MoD has made progress in securing

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its systems, but many experts think critical infrastructure is still

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wide open. There are certain industries within that critical

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infrastructure who have started to grab the bull by both horns, so to

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speak, and try to tackle the problem head on. Unfortunately we

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are seeing other critical infrastructure organisations still

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burying their heads in the sand. Maybe they see that the problem is

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too big, they are never going to fix it. If you don't start

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somewhere we are never going to progress. Even today, much of the

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Government's cybersecurity spendinging remains uncommitted. A

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good proportion of what they have spent has gone on offensive

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capablities. While they stress to us that one survey put Britain top

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of the G20 in cybersecurity, many feel not enough has been done yet

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to defend Britain's networks. all our coverage is not as

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extensive as I would hope it should be. Given the push they made on

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cyber, I think the relative lack of offensive in defences is cause for

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concern. Francis Maude, the cyberSecurity Minister told us

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tonight: As for leaving a significant

:12:13.:12:23.
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proportion of the �650 million unat Three years ago the Government

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declared cyberdefence to be a vital national priority. Yet you would

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hardly think so from the scale of investment so far in protecting

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this country's computer networks. With us now is the former Labour

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Defence Secretary and Home Secretary Lord Reid who now chairs

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the Institute for Security and resilience studies, which is a

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filliated with the University College London. And also --

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affiliated with the University College London, and also the author

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of Cyber War Will Not Take Place. How real is the threat? It is very

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real. Let's accept that the digital world, cyber, offers us

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unparalleled opportunities. Everyone benefits. It is the

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biggest step for mankind in terms of learning and exchange. But

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because there is an interdependence, because we are all networked

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together now we are all very, very vulnerable. That starts withen

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vaigss of privacy, -- invasions of prif vi, then on-line fraud,

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massive crime, industrial espionage, and now the possibility that people

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could really undermine the operating system that is run our

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critical infrastructure. national security level who is the

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enemy? The enemy in a sense is our own complacency. It is potentially

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anyone who wishes to either steal industrial secrets or undermine.

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Are we talking about China? state-sponsored terrorism, in

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state-sponsored cyberespionage there is evidence that China is

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involved. Russia. Also because the cyber-world empowers three billion

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people now, it is possible for individuals to do a great deal of

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damage as well. Not just state- sponsored. They can get through

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some of our vulnerable but critical operating systems. Do you think the

:14:26.:14:36.
:14:36.:14:40.

threat is real? Let's make a difference between espionage and

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steal be and political activism on- line and sabotage. Sabotage we know

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five or six cases on a public record, globally speaking. Great

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Britain has never experienced that, espionage is different, in many

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cases it is happening on a daily basis, that is where the main

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threat S all of that doesn't take into account crime which is an all

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together different kettle of fish. You are advocating an international

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approach to this problem? I think you need a national and

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international. Look, this isn't like any other problem because the

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cyber-space, the Internet and digital communications are

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transnational, they cover 192 countries, each with their own

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types of juris prudence, some of them four or five types, all the

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treaties are more or less redundant. I have been suggesting the first

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thing to do is to develop what we call "doctrine", that is a series

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of principle that is we set out publicly, not secretly, with other

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countries in the world. Don't necessarily negotiate a treaty, but

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let people know where we stand on various issues. That is starting

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point. We also need to do things nationally the problem nationally

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is that cyberspace is fragmented in Government. It is not just Francis

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Maude, it is defence, it is Vince Cable at business and so on

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involved in it. It needs an overall approach, you need a Cyber Minister

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responsible to the Security Council. That is a controversial suggestion

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because it is a decentralisinged problem the Government is facing.

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That raises the question whether putting one person in charge of the

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entire problem is actually making it more difficult to have a proper

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overview because it is so decentralised, rather than

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different responsibilities across the board. Let's talk about

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defensive issues, we we heard the argument that GCHQ is spending a

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lont the defensive side. That is speculation, we don't know how much

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they are spending it. I think it is well sourced? I'm close to the

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sourced and it is not on the public domain information. To be precise

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there is political pressure towards GCHQ to do more on the offensive.

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That is what parliament essentially said in its last committee report.

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That is an interesting development. Because GCHQ, I think we have to

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understand the nature of cyber- weapons, if I may. Cyber-weapons

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are different from conventional weapons, if you develop a weapon

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like a virus it is a one-shot weapon against a specific target.

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You fire it once and you can't repeat it. GCHQ understands that.

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Does this idea of resilience in an international organisation doesn't

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a imply some sort of defensive capacity? Be careful with the word

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"defensive" the way it was used in the report there meant that GCHQ

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were trying to enhance their active intelligence, which is a different

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thing. It doesn't imply that they were about to launch a cyber-attack

:17:49.:17:52.

on anyone, it did mean they were trying to use some of the money

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given to them for cyber-defence to do what they have traditionally

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done which is to pick up intelligence, patterns of terrorist

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contact and so on. That is one of the problems I think in getting a

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comprehensive report from Government. I still think that

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because it is so comprehensive, unless you get a lead minister and

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I accept this is arguable, unless you get a lead minister it won't

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work. Thirdly you have to put in enough money. �650 million for our

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country over three years. Over three years, it is not peran number,

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isn't a lot of money when split between GCHQ, Home Office and

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defence. There is a big, big problem here. The Government have

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done some things on it, I think we ought to be fair to GCHQ that is

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trying to both do what it traditionally has done, and to

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develop new methods of defending on cyber. Is there a skills shortage

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here? Yes. Absolutely. In all countries, not just this country.

:18:49.:18:54.

Sow what do you do, do you hire hackers or what? Yeah. You need a

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new culture. You need a new structure. For instance the way you

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recruit to the Civil Service. We have looked at people who play

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within the box, who like Tom and I wear a collar and tie, wear short

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hair, are good soldiers and don't question, exactly the wrong thing

:19:13.:19:16.

for cyber. Let's look for the people who question and rebel. The

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people prepared to question authority all the time. And to turn

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a lot of young people who are very good at this away from the

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possibility of them becoming what is called "black hat" cyber-thak

:19:31.:19:35.

hackers. Would you let people out of prison to do it? You don't need

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to do that. You need to make sure your culture and process selection

:19:42.:19:45.

is as such that you don't demand the requirements for the past

:19:45.:19:49.

several hundred years, but those that will equip people for the

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cyber-world. Let's talk about an issue talked about in the report,

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openness. After Boston and the terrorist attacks, the police and

:19:56.:20:01.

the FBI informed the public. In the military confrontation like in

:20:01.:20:05.

Afghanistan the British Army is informing the public. In a cyber-

:20:05.:20:07.

security context there is no established expectation how the

:20:07.:20:10.

Government should inform the public about what's going on. The result

:20:10.:20:15.

of that is, that we as the public are relying on companies to report

:20:15.:20:19.

the facts. Companies to report the statistics, these companies have an

:20:19.:20:24.

interest in a particular version of the story. So one of the very

:20:24.:20:28.

important things to understand is that openness, meaning the

:20:28.:20:35.

Government, which is afterall and GCHQ which is tax-pair-funded has a

:20:35.:20:39.

responsibility towards -- taxpayer funded has a responsibility towards

:20:39.:20:44.

us the citizens. They have a way to go on that but more opening up to

:20:44.:20:49.

come. The critical thing for the national infrastructure is the

:20:49.:20:52.

private sector who have to understand how critical they are,

:20:52.:20:56.

and share information despite competitive urges.

:20:56.:21:01.

In a moment, they may look plentiful but bee numbers are

:21:01.:21:05.

tumbling. Are pesticides to blame. Whose job is it to work that out.

:21:05.:21:08.

The onus should be on those who manufacture the chemicals to show

:21:08.:21:12.

they are safe, rather than the beekeepers trying to improve they

:21:12.:21:17.

are unsafe. Now, it is the least favourite time

:21:17.:21:20.

of year in most of the departments of Government. The time when nasty

:21:20.:21:24.

People in the Treasury expect a letter setting out your plans to

:21:24.:21:28.

make George Osborne's day by not spending so much money. There are a

:21:28.:21:32.

few public services which have been promised protection, but every

:21:32.:21:36.

bunch of people spending public money, even the Government catering

:21:36.:21:39.

officials thinks their work is vital. Unfortunate low we are broke.

:21:39.:21:45.

Who is to get what in two years time, the start of the next

:21:45.:21:48.

administration, has set off some serious scrappinging in Whitehall.

:21:48.:21:51.

Our political editor is here. This isn't supposed to be decided for

:21:51.:21:56.

weeks yet, is it? I know, they have to find �11.5 billion. This has

:21:56.:22:02.

been shadow boxing for six months or more. The last seven weeks does

:22:02.:22:11.

feel like the deadline is approaching. In 2015 there is the

:22:11.:22:14.

election, these cuts will loom over the election. They are intensely

:22:14.:22:20.

political and won't be decided in a Jiffy. For that reason they are the

:22:20.:22:25.

subject of fierce negotiations. Remind us who is ring-fenced here?

:22:25.:22:28.

The NHS, aid and schools, not the Department for Education, but

:22:28.:22:33.

schools as a bit within it are protected. NHS and aid it is for

:22:33.:22:36.

both the Liberal Democrats and Conservatives it is important to

:22:36.:22:40.

them. Particularly for the Tories it is about rebranding themselves.

:22:40.:22:43.

Schools is about a time they are cutting elsewhere they are

:22:43.:22:46.

reinvesting in young people. The problem is, in my opinion, watching

:22:47.:22:51.

this closely over the last six months what we have had emerge are

:22:51.:22:54.

these inprompt tu ring-fences around welfare. The Lib Dems are

:22:54.:23:01.

saying you can't touch that, not on your Nelly. The Tories saying you

:23:01.:23:07.

can't touch defence. When you have these two massive monoliths emerge,

:23:07.:23:12.

people start to reevaluate and say what do we go back, to schools

:23:12.:23:17.

which is what I'm told is on the table. The FT is saying there is a

:23:17.:23:20.

massive, four cabinet ministers saying to the Treasury you can

:23:20.:23:29.

touch the NHS afterall. There is a respectful case to be made for

:23:29.:23:33.

cutting schools. I have talked to lots of Labour sources, not lots

:23:33.:23:38.

but serious ones who say that they would do that going into Government.

:23:38.:23:45.

It is not actually as baermy as it sounds. But today the -- barmy as

:23:45.:23:51.

it sounds, today the Prime Minister said he won't touch the NHS or

:23:51.:23:53.

pensioner benefits but I didn't mention schools.

:23:54.:23:58.

We are joined to discuss this by Matthew tailor chief executive of

:23:58.:24:08.
:24:08.:24:10.

the RSA, he was chief policy adviser during the Government. And

:24:10.:24:16.

Rick From the polling company. think this is an example of good

:24:16.:24:20.

politics made bad policy. I can see why politicians felt the need to

:24:20.:24:23.

make these policies. But in a situation like this you need to

:24:23.:24:26.

make choices based on the merits of the case rather than the basis of a

:24:26.:24:34.

commitment you made two or three years ago. The consequence of too

:24:34.:24:38.

much ring-fencing is certain small items are cut to the point where

:24:38.:24:41.

they will stop existing, Legal Aid and youth services are examples of

:24:41.:24:45.

that. The other consequence is in the end people blai games. Little

:24:45.:24:49.

bits of social care spending are funded out of health. What happens

:24:49.:24:57.

is valuable time in Whitehall ought to be used spending policies and

:24:57.:24:59.

supporting stupid promises politicians have made. The promises

:24:59.:25:04.

are made when politicians are asking for our votes f politicians

:25:04.:25:09.

start breaking an agreement or an undertaking, not to take money from

:25:09.:25:11.

schools, or from international development or whatever it was, you

:25:11.:25:14.

can understand that? They also tend to be made by politicians in

:25:14.:25:22.

opposition. The two headlines for the stories were ring-fencing the

:25:22.:25:25.

NHS budget, ring-fencing international development as part

:25:25.:25:30.

of a reassurance exer size in the run up to the 2010 general election.

:25:30.:25:32.

Nobody would find now if international development was cut

:25:32.:25:36.

now? International development on the one hand is very, very popular

:25:36.:25:39.

as a candidate for cutting, if you have to cut anything with the

:25:39.:25:42.

public. About four out of five people are in favour of ring-

:25:42.:25:47.

fencing the health service, only four in 100 are in favour ring-

:25:47.:25:51.

fencing the aid budget. If the stories got rid of it, everyone

:25:52.:26:01.

would scream that it was the death of compassionate Conservatism and

:26:01.:26:05.

David Cameron modernising the Conservative Party. If you look at

:26:05.:26:08.

the other pledges being made it might get us away from the idea

:26:08.:26:13.

that the way politicians rebuild trust is tie their hands in the

:26:13.:26:18.

future. If you saw someone with a padlock on their wallet you

:26:18.:26:21.

wouldn't say they were wise with money but they had a problem. This

:26:21.:26:25.

is going on for years, Labour's golden rules and the Office of

:26:25.:26:27.

Budget Responsibility is another people. All a way for the

:26:27.:26:32.

politicians saying to the public you don't trust us so we will tie

:26:32.:26:35.

ourselves up, I don't think it works. It gives you little room for

:26:35.:26:39.

manoeuvre, if you come into Government and most of the budget

:26:39.:26:43.

is already supposedly ring-fenced? This is not a new problem. Margaret

:26:43.:26:47.

Thatcher, one the first thing she did during the 197 9jx campaign was

:26:47.:26:54.

to say she would impli -- 1979 campaign was to implement the

:26:54.:26:59.

policies just before the recession. There is difference between policy

:26:59.:27:02.

and swathes of Government. Blair or Brown said they wouldn't

:27:02.:27:07.

increase the top rate of income tax, a pledge they stuck to for more

:27:07.:27:11.

than a decade. And introduced lots of other taxes because of that.

:27:11.:27:15.

point is, I think, if you have a political problem the temptation is

:27:15.:27:18.

to come up with a headline policy you think will cut through and

:27:18.:27:22.

communicate with the public and say you can trust us with the health

:27:22.:27:26.

service, or other a different kind of heart. When the rubber hits the

:27:26.:27:30.

road your options are -- party of. When the rubber hits the road your

:27:30.:27:35.

options are there. How can you be as convincing as possible with the

:27:35.:27:38.

voters, while at the same time tying your hands to the minimum

:27:38.:27:43.

agreement. What we did have was economic policy and fiscal policy

:27:43.:27:47.

is policy made on current circumstances. We are talking about

:27:47.:27:50.

decisions to be implemented after the next election. That means that

:27:50.:27:54.

the ground in that election, because more commitments have been

:27:54.:27:58.

made between now and then, the ground to be fought over in that

:27:58.:28:02.

election will be very, very narrow, won't it? It will, and the danger

:28:02.:28:07.

is, we had it at the last election but it is even more pressure on the

:28:07.:28:10.

politicians in their debate to rule almost everything out. You get to

:28:10.:28:13.

the point when you say what is the point to choose which party to

:28:13.:28:17.

elect. They have ruled out any possibility of action. I wonder

:28:17.:28:20.

whether the electorate is get to go the stage where if a politician

:28:20.:28:24.

would say the outcomes you want is a well-run and better public

:28:24.:28:27.

services, these are my immediate policies, but I'm not going to say

:28:27.:28:31.

where we will be in two or three years time, nobody knows. I think

:28:31.:28:35.

you would be a very, very brave political leader to do that. If you

:28:35.:28:38.

were the Conservative Party you would want Ed Balls and Ed Miliband

:28:39.:28:42.

to say, just trust us, we are not binding ourselves to anything going

:28:42.:28:49.

into the next election. Thank you very much. Saint Alan

:28:49.:28:54.

Titchmarsh came among his disciples this evening, wailing loudly that

:28:54.:28:57.

gardening might not have a future. He seems to think it is because

:28:57.:29:00.

young people are more interested in computers than composting. The

:29:00.:29:04.

European Union believes there may be a bigger menace, not just

:29:04.:29:09.

gardening and agriculture but all of you us. They are introducing a

:29:09.:29:14.

moratorium on the use of some pesticides because of a

:29:14.:29:21.

catastrophic drop in the bee population, which without these

:29:21.:29:29.

nothing pollenates. After a long, cold winter, out in our countryside

:29:29.:29:39.
:29:39.:29:42.

the bees are finally waking up. For beekeepers, it is their first

:29:42.:29:46.

opportunity to stock up with newbies. And they came from across

:29:46.:29:49.

England to this supplier in Oxfordshire today ego Tory chat

:29:49.:29:54.

about the future of our bees and to make sure they got the pick of this

:29:54.:30:00.

year's specimens. She is a lifrpb colour and longer. Bees and other

:30:00.:30:03.

insects are global to food protection, they pollenate about

:30:03.:30:07.

three-quarters of our crops. Falling numbers have been blamed on

:30:08.:30:15.

disease and loss of habitat. As well as a group of insecticides

:30:15.:30:20.

called neonicotinoid. This man is Ukrainian by birth, beekeeping is

:30:20.:30:28.

in his blood. He has been selling bees in Banbury for four years, he

:30:28.:30:32.

has managed to keep livestock losses to 10%. There is an

:30:32.:30:37.

indication of some syndrome somewhere. Maybe not pesticides,

:30:37.:30:41.

maybe husbandry, maybe not proper management, maybe something else. I

:30:41.:30:48.

believe we need to do more research into it, to actually find what is

:30:48.:30:52.

causing the big losses. Those who support a ban on neonicotinoids,

:30:52.:30:56.

point to a growing evidence that they can affect bee behaviour.

:30:56.:30:59.

Evidence has shown that the colonies are growing more slowly

:30:59.:31:05.

and have trouble bringing food back. This impacts the numbers of Queens

:31:05.:31:11.

produced and colony survival. The individual brain, bee and colony

:31:11.:31:15.

level there is clear evidence of the impact on the neonicotinoids,

:31:15.:31:20.

this doesn't prove they are the cause bee decline or pollination

:31:20.:31:23.

decline generally, but it is a clear negative impact and one we

:31:24.:31:30.

should try to live out. In Britain today they voted against a ban, but

:31:30.:31:36.

E United States were split. They imposed a temporary restriction on

:31:36.:31:39.

insecticides for two years beginning September. The ban covers

:31:39.:31:43.

two types of neonicotinoids, covering two chemical companies.

:31:43.:31:49.

is a sad day for UK agriculture, we will see farmers being more and

:31:49.:31:53.

more restrict today what they can use to grow the safe, high-quality

:31:53.:31:57.

affordable food we expect in the UK. We are seeing more and more this

:31:57.:32:01.

shift towards what I consider to be a museum agriculture approach in

:32:01.:32:06.

Europe. And all, unfortunately, without any discernable improvement

:32:06.:32:12.

to bee health. For zombie keepers this puts the burp in the right

:32:12.:32:17.

place, -- burden of proof in the right place? They are looking

:32:17.:32:20.

through the wrong end of the telescope, it should be up to those

:32:20.:32:24.

who manufacture the chemicals to prove they are safe, rather than

:32:25.:32:28.

the beekeepers proving they aren't safe. People here don't doubt our

:32:28.:32:31.

bees are under attack, they are not convince add ban on pesticides will

:32:31.:32:37.

help. It comes down to how big a risk we are prepared to take this

:32:38.:32:44.

she is vaital crop pollenators. Every year the beekeepers

:32:44.:32:48.

association collects information about the percentage of losses in

:32:48.:32:55.

bee colonies. Following a huge loss over the winter of 2007-08 of 31%.

:32:55.:33:02.

Subsequent years saw improvements, in 2008/09 it was 19%, and 18% over

:33:02.:33:08.

the winter of 2009-10, then another improvement with colony losses of

:33:08.:33:16.

close to 14% in 2010-11, a slight increase in losses to just over 16%

:33:16.:33:22.

in 2011-12. Figures for our latest protracted winter are not yesterday

:33:22.:33:26.

available. There seems a -- yesterday veilable. Kept bees are

:33:26.:33:32.

only part of the picture, wild bee numbers are less clear. Here at the

:33:32.:33:36.

agricultural research centre skiens plan to tag bees with tiny --

:33:36.:33:40.

scientists plan to tag bees with tiny radio aerials to track their

:33:40.:33:46.

movements by radar. There are many problems and factors with the bow

:33:46.:33:53.

problem, there is the mites, and the insects they carry, there are

:33:53.:33:56.

climate conditions and all sorts of other factors. I worry that people

:33:56.:34:00.

will now think we have solved it because we have taken out one

:34:00.:34:05.

factor from what is a very complicated equation. Passionate

:34:05.:34:09.

protests in London on Friday were trying to shift the Government's

:34:09.:34:14.

anti-ban stance. They didn't do that. The protestors will be he is

:34:14.:34:22.

celebrating the decision by Europe as victory if only tempry It is not

:34:22.:34:26.

what it is best for the bees, and the bees are most important. With

:34:26.:34:30.

us now is George Freeman who advises the Government on life

:34:30.:34:36.

sciences, and Heidi Hermann of the natural beekeepinging trust. Why do

:34:36.:34:41.

we care so much about bees? Because we know in our hearts how wonderful

:34:41.:34:45.

they are. How important they are, and how we can ill-afford to lose

:34:45.:34:50.

them. Most people know that. there is a problem, isn't there?

:34:50.:34:54.

There is a problem, as your film made very clear it is a complex

:34:54.:34:58.

problem. There are hundreds of species of bees, some doing well

:34:58.:35:05.

and some struggling. Nobody wants to use more chemicals, the farming

:35:05.:35:13.

industry keen to get off chemical agriculture. We need field trials,

:35:13.:35:17.

the need for study is how it works out in the feel. We and ten other

:35:17.:35:21.

countries in Europe today were calling for field trials across the

:35:21.:35:24.

country. There were 15 other countries who thought there should

:35:24.:35:29.

be a an immediate ban? Jo it was a split vote, it wasn't Britain

:35:29.:35:33.

against the rest of the countries? I didn't suggest it is, I was

:35:33.:35:37.

trying to figure out the Government's position on the issue?

:35:37.:35:41.

The Government's position is clear, it should be based on science. The

:35:41.:35:45.

two scientist here and research that has been done has not shown

:35:45.:35:49.

that the neonicotinoids are the cause of the collapse in bee

:35:49.:35:53.

numbers which the film showed is getting less bad. There is a number

:35:53.:35:56.

of factors, habitats, development and climate change. They are not

:35:56.:36:00.

good for bees? Nobody wants agriculture dependant on chemicals,

:36:00.:36:05.

we want to move away from that to a more biological system. Owen

:36:05.:36:09.

Paterson, the Secretary of State, is very keen on garotteing

:36:09.:36:15.

squirrels on a precautionary principle. On a precautionary

:36:15.:36:18.

principle shouldn't he ban this poison? We need policy to be driven

:36:18.:36:24.

by science. The problem is the commission has bottled it, in the

:36:24.:36:29.

face of substantial lobbying from the green NGOs it has been banned a

:36:29.:36:32.

class of chemicals. There is no impact on the environment bucks we

:36:32.:36:42.

know food prices will go up. It sends a message that Europe is

:36:42.:36:45.

against agriculture. I admire your attempts to defend Government

:36:45.:36:51.

policy. It is clear that the policy of the British Government on this

:36:51.:36:59.

neonicotinoid issue is crass. 1.2 million hectares in this country

:36:59.:37:04.

under cultivation with neonicotinoids, all of them killing

:37:04.:37:11.

insect life in all its forms. And to say for definite that we deeply

:37:11.:37:15.

care about the health of the honey bee, and we will follow science, we

:37:15.:37:18.

are waiting for the right science, is just not good enough. I think

:37:18.:37:27.

the population is now catching up with that disparity of that

:37:27.:37:32.

position. It is a very dangerous precedent today, if you don't base

:37:32.:37:35.

it on science, you send a message out that anyone who lobbies hard

:37:35.:37:40.

gets their way. The danger is we base it not on science. You are

:37:40.:37:44.

claiming the evidence isn't there and we have to wait for the science.

:37:44.:37:50.

Your own Government had an Environmental Audit Committee and

:37:50.:37:54.

it made clear recommendations in relation to the precautionary

:37:54.:37:57.

principle needing to be introduced urgently in order to save the

:37:57.:38:01.

wildlife of the country. The chief scientist, new in post, has come

:38:01.:38:04.

out and said he thinks it is a mistake. Are you going to suggest

:38:04.:38:08.

that because he's new he is better. The scientist who led the research

:38:08.:38:12.

has pointed out field study is what we need. We need to look at the

:38:12.:38:16.

effect of the chemicals out in real agriculture in field studies across

:38:17.:38:21.

Europe. There are scientist who is think it should be banned? This

:38:21.:38:25.

isn't against scientific advice, the Government is acting on the

:38:25.:38:30.

basis of the advice available. totally disagree with that.

:38:30.:38:36.

Wouldn't you like to ban all insecticides? Yes, but that doesn't

:38:36.:38:39.

mean we don't applaud today's decision. It is a step in the right

:38:39.:38:42.

direction, it is not the whole solution. You say three cheers for

:38:42.:38:49.

the undemocratic part of the EU? Absolutely. Takes us back to the

:38:49.:38:52.

dark ages, food prices rising, Europe in the slow lane. Why are

:38:52.:38:56.

you saying that? The world needs to double food production in the next

:38:56.:39:01.

30 years, we need to increase the amount of money we grow without

:39:01.:39:05.

chopping down rainforests and less inputs. We need science. That will

:39:05.:39:11.

get us out of it. The anti-science approach will take us back to the

:39:11.:39:16.

dark ages. Scientific beekeeping has been practised in the last 300

:39:16.:39:20.

years and appears to have brought the honey bee to its knees.

:39:21.:39:23.

Traditional beekeeping before science had flourishing bee colony.

:39:23.:39:26.

When you look at the state of the environment today and say we have

:39:26.:39:29.

brought the environment to the planet to the brink of collapse,

:39:29.:39:32.

maybe there is something wrong with that science. Maybe there are other

:39:32.:39:36.

forms of science and other ways of looking at things. No accept we

:39:36.:39:41.

have brought the planet to the brink of collapse. Mankind is an

:39:41.:39:43.

extraordinary journey of development, we have risen

:39:43.:39:46.

standards of living across the world. We have a huge challenge.

:39:46.:39:50.

The force of science and human innovation and optimisim and

:39:50.:39:54.

progress will see us through. That we need policy based on science.

:39:54.:39:59.

Thank you very much. Time now for the facial hair of the day spot.

:39:59.:40:04.

He's called Harper Reed and he calls himself with characteristic

:40:04.:40:09.

underestimate probably one of the coolest guys ever. Actually he has

:40:09.:40:12.

done something rather interesting, Harper Reed was the head of

:40:12.:40:20.

technology for President Obama's re-election team. It became famous

:40:20.:40:24.

for building the most sophisticated voter tracking database ever seen

:40:24.:40:31.

in a US presidential election. By using information from social

:40:31.:40:35.

networks, television viewing habits and personal donation histories it

:40:35.:40:42.

was able to microtarget individual voters, sending them millions of

:40:42.:40:46.

personalised e-mails and Twitter messages each day. It worked,

:40:46.:40:51.

obviously. He's with us now. You are not a politician by background?

:40:51.:40:57.

No, not at all. You certainly don't look like a politician? I in theed

:40:57.:41:01.

that! What attracted you to it then? There is this aspect of

:41:01.:41:05.

problem. I think engineers are often looking for the most

:41:05.:41:11.

important or interesting problem set. When I first was recruited the

:41:11.:41:15.

problems that were described were very attractive. You don't often as

:41:15.:41:19.

an engineer get this opportunity to do something that is so big.

:41:19.:41:23.

you just summarise the problem in words we can understand? I will

:41:23.:41:29.

make an effort. So the problem that we set out to do we set tout figure

:41:29.:41:34.

out a way to contact -- out a way to contact all the correct voters

:41:34.:41:39.

who make sure they voted for the President. That is to simplify it.

:41:39.:41:44.

How do we take all the data people are giving us through our e-mail

:41:44.:41:46.

list and fundraising and make sure we are reaching out in the correct

:41:47.:41:53.

way. You were also playing into that what you could find out from

:41:53.:41:55.

social media, what television programmes they watched and all the

:41:55.:42:00.

rest of it? None of the television stuff. We did a bit where we built

:42:00.:42:05.

technology that looked at what all people were looking at, the

:42:05.:42:08.

aggregate data. It wasn't so specific, we didn't know what you

:42:08.:42:12.

Jeremy were watching it. The point being you could precisely target

:42:12.:42:18.

messages to everybody? That is the idea. It obviously worked? There is

:42:18.:42:22.

the pd. But the bigger idea is we wanted to make sure we were

:42:22.:42:25.

efficient in our movements. I'm not familiar with campaigns in the UK,

:42:25.:42:31.

but in the US it is all about the resores. Its about who has the most

:42:31.:42:35.

money, volunteers and boots on the ground. We wanted to make sure

:42:35.:42:39.

these very valuable people doing the hardest work were able to do it

:42:39.:42:44.

very efficiently. This is a big sea change in the way politics are

:42:44.:42:48.

conducted. I think that it is not so much a change as much as I would

:42:48.:42:56.

say, we like to call it as a "force multiplier". What do you mean?

:42:56.:43:02.

Politics hasn't changed ts knocking on doors, sending mail and

:43:02.:43:06.

telephone calls. Those are the same organising techniques used for

:43:06.:43:11.

years in the US. What we did was make all of those things, twice,

:43:11.:43:16.

three-times, four-times as efficient. The idea was if we had a

:43:16.:43:20.

volunteer knocking on doors, that volunteer could do the same time

:43:20.:43:23.

but twice as much work. But making sure the contacts and the people

:43:23.:43:28.

they are talking to are the right people. Did you find anything at

:43:28.:43:32.

all creepy or sinister about the fact that you were learning so much

:43:32.:43:37.

about people? Well, you know the good thing was all of the data,

:43:37.:43:40.

predominantly all of the data was really given to us by the same

:43:40.:43:44.

people that we were looking at. So the volunteer, knocking on a door,

:43:44.:43:48.

having that conversation, and using that conversation to make sure we

:43:48.:43:52.

weren't wasting people's time. I don't think it was creepy. I think

:43:52.:43:59.

it was just helping us do our job and making sure we were re-electing

:43:59.:44:04.

the President. There is a thin line between targeting the message very

:44:04.:44:08.

precisely and changing the message, formulating policy? There is a

:44:08.:44:12.

nuance here I would like to insert. That is the goal here was to listen.

:44:12.:44:16.

The goal here was to use that targeting, reach out there and make

:44:16.:44:18.

sure we could have that conversation with the person. It

:44:18.:44:22.

was also, of course, used in some cases, not the targeting but the an

:44:22.:44:26.

litics and data to make sure we were doing the right work. For the

:44:26.:44:31.

most part people saying this stuff is creepy, it is very much what

:44:31.:44:34.

businesses are doing. Doesn't mean it is not creepy? That is why I

:44:34.:44:38.

wanted to throw that over. There it is more so the idea was how do we

:44:38.:44:43.

get the conversation closer to the user. Or closer to the voter or

:44:43.:44:48.

that constituent? Do you get a feeling that guys like you, I don't

:44:48.:44:52.

mean with your facial hair, but guys with your set of skills and

:44:52.:44:56.

interests are going to take over politics? I don't know about take

:44:56.:45:01.

over. I'm a little concerned that the focus on just getting tech for

:45:01.:45:06.

tech's sake. I do think there is not a business out there, politics,

:45:06.:45:11.

marketing, commerce, that doesn't require in this day and age a lot

:45:11.:45:15.

of technology. So I think in the US it just turned out that politics

:45:15.:45:21.

was no different. Thank you very much Tomorrow morning's front pages

:45:21.:45:27.

as was mentioned the story of the public sector spending round is on

:45:27.:45:37.
:45:37.:46:05.

the front page of the Financial We have been putting up the wrong

:46:05.:46:10.

pictures, sorry. At least it is today's or tomorrow's. We will

:46:10.:46:15.

leave you with comfort for all of us who have had to put up with that

:46:15.:46:19.

perpetual childhood moan, it is not fair. It is evidently hard wired,

:46:19.:46:23.

as the primatologist, Frans De Waal, showed to a recent conference. And

:46:23.:46:28.

he has cucumber and grapes to prove it T his monkeys had to hand over a

:46:28.:46:33.

rock to get a reLuiz Eduardo. gives a rock to us, that is the

:46:33.:46:37.

task and we give her a piece of cucumber, the other one needs to

:46:37.:46:45.

give a rock to us, and that's what she does, she gets a grape. She

:46:45.:46:50.

eats it, the other one sees it and gives the rock to us and gets again

:46:50.:47:00.
:47:00.:47:13.

Over the next couple of days a split in the weather further south,

:47:13.:47:16.

sunshine to the north a bit more cloud. We will see cloud increasing

:47:16.:47:19.

through on Tuesday. Still one or two showers around, not as many as

:47:19.:47:24.

we had on Monday, not as intense. One or two scattered around across

:47:24.:47:27.

parts of Northern Ireland. Temperatures at 12. Still perhaps a

:47:27.:47:30.

few showers for parts of Scotland where temperatures just getting

:47:30.:47:33.

into double figures through the central lowlands. Inbetween the

:47:33.:47:38.

showers many places will be dry, fine and bright. We have got

:47:38.:47:42.

sunshine in Manchester. 12 the top temperature. One or two showers

:47:43.:47:45.

scattered across the Midland and into East Anglia. With the sunshine

:47:45.:47:49.

to the south we are looking at temperatures up to around 14

:47:49.:47:53.

degrees. Many southern counties of England will stay dry all day long.

:47:53.:47:56.

With lighter winds across south- west England, it will feel warmer

:47:56.:48:02.

than it did on Monday. Maybe one or two showers for parts of Wales.

:48:02.:48:07.

Sunny spells and temperatures in Cardiff at 12 degrees. While a lot

:48:07.:48:17.
:48:17.:48:23.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the headlines. Is Britain truly alert to the threat posed by cyber attacks? With Jeremy Paxman.


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