07/05/2013 Newsnight


07/05/2013

Analysis of the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. As three women are rescued after ten years captivity in a house in Ohio, Newsnight speaks to the family of one of the victims.


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$:/STARTFEED. Tonight extraordinary scenes in ordinary America.

:00:12.:00:18.

Jubilation as three women and a girl are released after years held

:00:18.:00:21.

captive in suburban Ohio. Rescued by a neighbour who thought he was

:00:21.:00:24.

hearing the screams of a domestic row. I saw this girl she's going

:00:24.:00:28.

nuts on the door, I'm like what's your problem, are you stuck, just

:00:28.:00:33.

open the door. She said she couldn't, he has it looked.

:00:33.:00:35.

speak to the family of one of the victims.

:00:35.:00:39.

In the last couple of hours Russia and America have called for an

:00:39.:00:42.

International Conference on Syria, could it be too late to stop a

:00:42.:00:45.

regional war. If Israel is now resorting to air

:00:45.:00:48.

strikes to stop Lebanon's Hezbollah getting advanced weapons, this

:00:48.:00:52.

won't be the last attack, and a wider conflict may already be under

:00:52.:00:56.

way. Former Chancellor, Lord Lawson

:00:56.:00:58.

mocks the Prime Minister's Europe strategy and says that Britain

:00:58.:01:07.

should leave the EU. The renegotiation is just a fibleaf

:01:07.:01:11.

I'm afraid. Will Number Ten be forced to come up with a new policy

:01:11.:01:14.

all over again. We speak to two Conservative MPs.

:01:14.:01:19.

Is high-speed rail the answer to the north-south divide, in

:01:19.:01:22.

Andalucia they have had it for years, but the money has stayed in

:01:22.:01:26.

Madrid. I want to find out if after 20 years of high-speed rail has any

:01:26.:01:36.
:01:36.:01:37.

of this actually worked? Help me get out, I have been in

:01:38.:01:42.

here a long time, the dozen words that signalled the end of a decade-

:01:42.:01:48.

long ordeal, three women held hostage in an Ohio basement. Amanda

:01:48.:01:51.

Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michele Knight disappeared from the same

:01:51.:01:53.

Cleveland neighbourhood some ten years ago. They were found all

:01:53.:01:57.

together just a couple of miles from where they had gone missing.

:01:57.:02:01.

Two had been at the centre of a major police search, the third had

:02:01.:02:05.

virtually fallen off the radar. Tonight praise for the women's

:02:05.:02:08.

bravery as authorities admit they didn't have a clue. Questions into

:02:08.:02:12.

how police failed to misthe alarms that neighbours had -- miss the

:02:13.:02:18.

alarms that neighbours had raised up to two years earlier. We will

:02:18.:02:22.

hear from a relative of Amanda Berry who is critical of the police

:02:22.:02:26.

search for her family member. It was a prison for a decade,

:02:26.:02:30.

nobody knew. Neighbours barbecued with the owner, there were no

:02:30.:02:35.

complaints to police. But inside this house three women were kept

:02:35.:02:38.

captive since disappearing from Cleveland streets around ten years

:02:38.:02:42.

ago. Amanda Berry was 16 when she went missing on her way back from

:02:42.:02:47.

work in April 2003. Her ordeal ended yesterday when she seized a

:02:47.:02:51.

chance to escape. In hospital she was reunited with her family. With

:02:51.:02:57.

her a six-year-old girl found at the house. Amanda Berry's daughter.

:02:57.:03:01.

The real hero here is Amanda. I mean she is the real hero. She's

:03:01.:03:06.

the one that got this rolling. We're just following her lead,

:03:06.:03:10.

without her none of us would be here today. After a neighbour heard

:03:10.:03:15.

her cry for help, Amanda Berry made a frantic phone call to police.

:03:15.:03:19.

Hello police, help me, I'm Amanda Berry. You need police, fire or

:03:19.:03:24.

ambulance. I need police. What's going on there? I have been

:03:24.:03:27.

kidnapped and I have been missing for ten years and I'm here, I'm

:03:27.:03:33.

free now. OK stay there with those neighbours. Can you help me, please.

:03:33.:03:38.

You need to come now. We will get there as soon as you get a car open.

:03:38.:03:44.

I need them now before he gets back. I heard her screaming, I'm eating a

:03:44.:03:47.

McDonalds, I come outside and I see this girl going nuts trying to get

:03:47.:03:53.

out of a house. I go on the porch. I go on the porch and she says

:03:53.:03:58.

"help me get out, I have been here a long time". So I figured it was

:03:58.:04:01.

domestic violence dispute, I open the door and we can't get in that

:04:01.:04:06.

way because how the door is, it is so much that a body can't fit

:04:06.:04:09.

through it only a hand, so we kicked the bottom, and she comes

:04:10.:04:15.

out with the little girl and she says call 911, my name is Amanda

:04:15.:04:19.

Berry. Also discovered in the house was Gina DeJesus, she was 14 when

:04:20.:04:23.

she disappeared on her way home from school. Another woman, Michele

:04:23.:04:30.

Knight, was also found. All three were last seen on Lorain Avenue in

:04:30.:04:34.

Cleveland between 2003 and 12004. The house where they were held is

:04:34.:04:42.

across the city on Seymour avenue. It belongs to this man, Ariel

:04:42.:04:46.

Castro, a former school bus driver, police have arrested him and his

:04:46.:04:49.

two brothers. In this stunned neighbourhood everyone is asking

:04:49.:04:53.

the same question, how could they not know. The captive women were

:04:53.:04:57.

never seen. There was no noise, there were no clues. Although one

:04:57.:05:00.

neighbour had her concerns about the house. When I found out there

:05:00.:05:05.

was a little girl up there that I saw her, I questioned them, he

:05:05.:05:08.

shouldn't have a little girl because he doesn't have any women

:05:08.:05:11.

in there, how could there be a four or five-year-old in the house.

:05:12.:05:15.

There are serious questions for the police to, why didn't they join the

:05:15.:05:19.

dots between these disappearances. They actually visited the address

:05:19.:05:24.

twice. Once in 2000 because of a fight in the street, and again in

:05:24.:05:29.

204 after Ariel Castro left a child una-- 204 after Ariel Castro left a

:05:29.:05:32.

child unattended on a bus he was driving. Police knocked on the door

:05:32.:05:37.

but nobody answered. For now there are no ce cim nations, only relief

:05:37.:05:41.

-- recriminations, only relief. These three young ladies have

:05:41.:05:44.

provided us with the ultimate definition of survival and

:05:44.:05:50.

perseverance. The healing can now begin. The three women have now

:05:50.:05:53.

been released from hospital. Reunited with families who doubted

:05:53.:06:00.

they would ever see them again. I spoke a little earlier to Tina

:06:00.:06:03.

Miller, the cousin of Amanda Berry, one of the three women rescued

:06:03.:06:07.

yesterday. I asked her how the family learned Amanda had been

:06:07.:06:13.

freed? I was actually at my son's yesterday. My sister called me on

:06:13.:06:19.

the phone and someone actually had called her and told her that Amanda

:06:19.:06:24.

of alive. This is what news my sister passed on to me. Of course

:06:24.:06:28.

can you imagine, you don't think that you are going to hear these

:06:28.:06:35.

words after ten years of not seeing her. So it was very surreal for me.

:06:35.:06:39.

I mean you can imagine all the emotions, is it real, can it be

:06:39.:06:44.

true, all the things that we have gone through. You know, what we

:06:44.:06:50.

have heard. People saying they know her where abouts. Digginging for

:06:50.:06:57.

her, so as you can -- digging for her, as you can imagine it was

:06:57.:07:00.

quite overwhelming. Your hopes had been face raised before? Absolutely,

:07:00.:07:04.

she was my cousin, her mother and my mother are sisters. You know I

:07:04.:07:10.

have seen what it did to my aunt. It just destroyed her. To think

:07:10.:07:16.

that she was in our own home town and in Cleveland, that is just

:07:16.:07:22.

something that I can't even grasp still to this day. Amanda

:07:22.:07:29.

disappeared ten years ago or me, did you think she was still alive?

:07:29.:07:34.

As the years went on it was ...it was a little difficult because you

:07:34.:07:40.

know, you kind of start to lose hope. You hear all these stories

:07:40.:07:45.

with these girls being taken and human trafficking and you know,

:07:45.:07:49.

will you ever see her again, you know. You just run through your

:07:49.:07:55.

mind that you know the things I still hear her voice and you know,

:07:55.:08:02.

I remember how she you know brushed her hair and how she looked and you

:08:02.:08:07.

know. It is just, no, it was very hard for me at the end. When we had

:08:08.:08:12.

her ten-year vigil it was very hard. How does that feel to know she was

:08:12.:08:16.

only a few miles from the places the searches must have been going

:08:16.:08:21.

on? It is incredible. How do you think that would feel? You have

:08:21.:08:27.

them digging for her, you know, just a block or two from where she

:08:27.:08:31.

actually was in captivity. That is incredible. You need to get to know

:08:31.:08:35.

your where abouts, because somebody can sit with you, as I'm here right

:08:35.:08:40.

now and you don't know what I have going on inside my house. It does

:08:40.:08:44.

seem incredible, as you say, that the guy who discovered her, or who

:08:44.:08:48.

she made contact with talked about the neighbour, and sharing ribs and

:08:48.:08:53.

barbecues without ever suspecting him, right? You don't know who your

:08:53.:08:58.

neighbours are. You need to find out what is going on. There is

:08:58.:09:01.

being nosey and there is being cautious. You just want to know

:09:01.:09:05.

where you are at. Has it taught you anything more about the police

:09:05.:09:08.

search, because we know that the police went to the house, they were

:09:08.:09:13.

called there a couple of years ago, and they went away when nobody

:09:13.:09:16.

answered the door? For myself I think that the police could have

:09:16.:09:24.

done a little bit more when she first came up missing. She was

:09:24.:09:28.

classified as a runaway, that is not in her character. I don't care

:09:28.:09:32.

how old you are, if you are 25, if you are missing you are missing.

:09:32.:09:37.

What do you want to come out of this? You and your family have been

:09:37.:09:46.

through something that is almost inconceivable for most people?

:09:46.:09:51.

want for human trafficking to stop. These are girls, they are not money.

:09:51.:09:56.

You don't make money off of people. We are not slaves, no-one should

:09:56.:10:01.

own us, we are free, that is why good gives us that. We are not

:10:01.:10:06.

meant to be sold into slavery. Held against our will into captivity. We

:10:06.:10:15.

just need to get more laws passed. Thank you very much. Matt Zone is a

:10:15.:10:19.

Cleveland City Councillor who has known a family of the other rescued

:10:19.:10:24.

women, Gina DeJesus, since she went missing in 2004. He spent time with

:10:24.:10:29.

the family this evening. Thank you very much, tell us how the family

:10:29.:10:33.

are? The family is in a little shock right now. I was not able to

:10:33.:10:37.

talk to Gina's mother and father, Nancy and Felix, they are with Gina

:10:37.:10:41.

right now. But I did speak with her aunt who saw Gina and was able to

:10:41.:10:46.

be with her as well as some cousins. They are a little overwhelmed.

:10:46.:10:50.

There is a whole range of emotions that are going on as you can just

:10:50.:10:57.

imagine. Gina is out of hospital, is she physically well? She is out

:10:57.:11:02.

of the hospital, physically she's well. But there is ten years that

:11:02.:11:06.

have gone by and you know we just, there is concern from the family as

:11:06.:11:12.

well as people in the community how Gina's going to do, not only in the

:11:12.:11:15.

next 30-days, but how is she going to be a year from now, two years

:11:15.:11:20.

from now, five years from now. know Gina's family, but you also

:11:20.:11:23.

know the suspect's family as well, they are pretty known around the

:11:23.:11:29.

neighbourhood, right? I do. The Castro family is a prominent family

:11:29.:11:34.

in the Hispanic community. The City of Cleveland's about a population

:11:34.:11:40.

of 400,000 and roughly 10% are Hispanic. The patriarch of the

:11:41.:11:47.

family, Cese Castro is well known and respected businessman in our

:11:47.:11:52.

community. His brother Holio owns a hardware store around the corner

:11:52.:11:57.

from where they found the suspects. It is shocking to think that this

:11:57.:12:02.

could happen. I know there is embarrassment right now for the

:12:02.:12:09.

Castro family with the thought that the suspect is actually a relative.

:12:09.:12:13.

The question is how did nobody know, I mean as you say, a well known

:12:13.:12:17.

family and a street where it looked as if everyone talked to each other,

:12:17.:12:22.

sat out on their porches, passed each other by, how do you think

:12:22.:12:28.

this was missed? In this part of our city, I mean Seymour Avenue

:12:28.:12:33.

where they found the girls, it is more of a transient street. There

:12:33.:12:39.

is not a whole lot of owner- occupiers, mostly rentals. There is

:12:39.:12:42.

foreclosed unit as well as several condemned and boarded up houses on

:12:42.:12:46.

the street. I think what is happening over time is when you

:12:46.:12:49.

have more stable streets people start to know who their neighbours

:12:49.:12:53.

are and look out for them. That might be why that kind of flew

:12:53.:12:58.

underneath the radar screen. Tina, as you may have heard, was quite

:12:58.:13:02.

critical of the police search when she talked to me earlier, they said

:13:02.:13:06.

they had treated her as a missing person who had just gone off rather

:13:06.:13:09.

than someone who had disappeared. Do you think the police have

:13:09.:13:12.

serious questions to ask themselves about how this investigation was

:13:12.:13:18.

conducted? I think the community in general has serious questions to

:13:18.:13:22.

answer. Not only do the police, but the greater community. As well as

:13:22.:13:27.

the families of these individuals, and the family of the suspect. We

:13:27.:13:31.

all have to be accountable at the end of the day. It is easy right

:13:31.:13:35.

now to point fingers, but we have to let the investigation unfold,

:13:35.:13:41.

see how this thing plays out. At the end of the day we will get the

:13:42.:13:45.

facts and we will get to the bottom of this. Where does the police

:13:45.:13:48.

investigation go, they were called to the house a couple of years ago,

:13:48.:13:52.

but walked away when nobody answered the door, right? I will

:13:52.:13:58.

tell you in defence of our police department they really have

:13:58.:14:02.

exhausted all efforts to find these young women. Every time a lead came

:14:02.:14:06.

in they followed up on it. I have discussed this with our safety

:14:06.:14:13.

director as well as our police chief. Just recently as last year

:14:13.:14:17.

the City of Cleveland spent to close to several hundred thousand

:14:17.:14:20.

dollars based on a tip they received from somebody that the

:14:20.:14:23.

girls might have been buried in a field just several blocks from

:14:23.:14:28.

where they found them. And they spent all night, 48 continuous

:14:28.:14:34.

hours combing that area. It was based on a tip. So I'm not ready to

:14:34.:14:38.

say that the police didn't do all that they should. Sure, and just

:14:38.:14:42.

take us through what their strategy is now, what are they currently

:14:42.:14:50.

working at? Sure, we are working very closely with multiple law

:14:50.:14:53.

enforcement agencies. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI,

:14:53.:14:56.

is kind of handling the lead for the investigations right now. All

:14:56.:15:01.

of the interviewing process is being done through the FBI. The US

:15:01.:15:04.

marshall service is involved, as well as our police department, and

:15:04.:15:09.

our county Sheriff's department, all working in Unison with one

:15:09.:15:14.

another to try to -- unison with one another to try to build a

:15:14.:15:17.

timeline from the time the ladies went missing until he had why.

:15:17.:15:21.

Piecing together all the interviews and creating a timeline for how

:15:21.:15:31.
:15:31.:15:32.

things sequentialally have happened. Later this evening Russia and the

:15:32.:15:37.

United States have pledged to try to push both sides of the Syrian

:15:37.:15:41.

conflict to forge political transition. They want to build on

:15:41.:15:44.

plan set out last year. Senator John Kerry says it shouldn't be a

:15:44.:15:48.

piece of paper, but it comes as tension in the regions run high.

:15:48.:15:53.

Two attacks by Israel on Syrian targets raise the prospect of its

:15:53.:15:57.

deep involvement. Syria's President said his country could confront

:15:57.:16:01.

Israeli aggression. What to make of it? Well this

:16:01.:16:06.

process that has been announced tonight in Moscow, talks between

:16:06.:16:10.

the Russian Foreign Minister and John Kerry the US Secretary of

:16:10.:16:15.

State does appear to offer some thin sliver of hope. It could be

:16:15.:16:18.

that it is due to the worsening of the situation that they have been

:16:18.:16:21.

spurred into trying to do something. The White House has said, following

:16:21.:16:24.

on from the announcement that its consideration of arming the Syrian

:16:24.:16:30.

opposition is now being put on hold. Until they see whether this can get

:16:30.:16:34.

somewhere. This was John Kerry earlier this evening. We have

:16:34.:16:39.

agreed to use our good offices, both of us, to bring both sides to

:16:39.:16:46.

the table working with our other core coalition partners and other

:16:46.:16:51.

allies and interested party to bring both sides to the table in

:16:51.:16:57.

partnership with the concern of foreign countries, that a committed

:16:57.:17:02.

themselves to helping the Syrians to find a prompt and political

:17:02.:17:04.

solution within the Geneva framework. John Kerry said he

:17:05.:17:09.

doesn't want it to be a piece of paper, but can the two sides

:17:09.:17:11.

realistically come around the table together at this point? This has

:17:11.:17:15.

been the critical question when talks were held last year in Geneva.

:17:15.:17:19.

It became pretty clear that the two sides of the Al-Assad Government

:17:19.:17:23.

and the opposition just didn't have the will to do this. There were

:17:23.:17:27.

preconditions talked about on both sides and they weren't prepared to

:17:27.:17:31.

close the gap. The Russian Foreign Minister, I many you may say

:17:31.:17:35.

putting a Russian spin on this evening, he claimed he had spoken

:17:35.:17:38.

to the Syrian Government, they were prepared to come. They were

:17:38.:17:40.

prepared to talk without conditions. And he implied that they were

:17:40.:17:44.

willing to do it, but there was a question about whether the

:17:44.:17:49.

opposition would. They have often said the ouster of the Al-Assad

:17:49.:17:53.

Government is a precondition for talks. It is a difficult situation.

:17:53.:17:58.

They are unlikely to bridge the gap, all the other indicators in the

:17:58.:18:02.

region of increasing ethnic violence for example in one of the

:18:02.:18:05.

Alawite areas close to the coast, in attacks over the weekend,

:18:05.:18:08.

indicate a further rising of tension regionally. President Assad

:18:08.:18:12.

himself has been on television this evening, responding to the Israeli

:18:12.:18:15.

air strikes saying it is part of this broad conspiracy by regional

:18:15.:18:19.

powers, the west and Israel, he said it was just another face of

:18:19.:18:29.
:18:29.:18:34.

the terrorism the country is up against today. Allah hu Akbar.

:18:34.:18:44.

Allah hu Akbar. So now Israel is being drawn into Syria's strive in

:18:44.:18:48.

a highly visible fashion. A series of air strikes starting on Friday

:18:48.:18:52.

has brought the two countries to the brink of war and spread alarm

:18:52.:19:02.
:19:02.:19:06.

in the region. TRANSLATION: Israeli air strike on Damascus is

:19:06.:19:09.

completely unacceptable, there is no excuse or pretext that can

:19:09.:19:13.

justify this operation. These raids are nothing but opportunities,

:19:13.:19:20.

trump cards present today Al-Assad on a golden plate. Israel gambled

:19:20.:19:24.

that its bombing, which it still hasn't officially owned up to

:19:24.:19:28.

wouldn't trigger an all-out war. But it took precautions against one

:19:28.:19:33.

happening, calling up a reserve armoured division to reinforce the

:19:33.:19:37.

border and stationing batteries of its Iron Dome missile defence

:19:37.:19:41.

system near northern cities. The fear was that retaliation might

:19:41.:19:46.

come in the form of hundreds rockets from Hezbollah, the

:19:46.:19:50.

Lebanese militant Shi'ite movement, closely allied to Syria and Iran.

:19:50.:19:56.

Israel's strategy is now focused on thwarting that alliance. In Israel

:19:56.:20:01.

the set of priorities, Iran, Syria and what happened in Egypt in the

:20:01.:20:06.

Sinai are the top three priorities right now in the region. The

:20:06.:20:11.

combination of these weapons handing into the hands of Iranian

:20:11.:20:15.

allies is up there with their priority, there is a real fear in

:20:15.:20:20.

Israel that these weapons will be used. Either immediately or in the

:20:20.:20:26.

very near future either from the Golan Heights or Lebanon. Or in

:20:26.:20:30.

future conflicts between Israel and Hezbollah. They take it very

:20:30.:20:35.

seriously. Israel's targets reportedly over a weapons convoy

:20:35.:20:38.

with sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles in January. And again near

:20:38.:20:43.

the Lebanese border four days ago, seemed to confirm an agenda of

:20:43.:20:48.

trying to prevent transfers of advanced weapons to Hezbollah. The

:20:48.:20:54.

recent strikes were apparently aimed at missiles called Fateh 110s,

:20:54.:20:57.

being transfered from Iran to the Lebanese militant movement via

:20:58.:21:03.

Syria. These would put much of northern Israel in range. The

:21:03.:21:07.

Israelis have also struck the Jamraya research facility twice,

:21:07.:21:13.

both in January and the last few days. It is claimed to be a

:21:13.:21:19.

chemical weapons storage point. Syria has promised unspecified

:21:19.:21:22.

retaliation if Israel attacks again. But Palestinian groups there say

:21:23.:21:27.

they have been given the OK to attack Israel across the Golan

:21:27.:21:31.

Heights frontier. Meanwhile Iran has been trying to beef up

:21:31.:21:38.

Hezbollah's Arsenal as a means of deterring an Israeli attack on its

:21:38.:21:43.

nuclear facilities. Putting Fateh missiles in southern Lebanon gives

:21:43.:21:47.

Iran potentially a powerful retaliatory option against Israel.

:21:47.:21:51.

The question now is whether Israel's action will cause Iran or

:21:51.:21:57.

Syria, far from stopping, to accelerate their weapons deliveries

:21:57.:22:01.

to Hezbollah, leading all sides into further escalation. If there

:22:01.:22:05.

is a broader confrontation with Iran that country has responded to

:22:05.:22:11.

the weekend's air strikes defiantly. TRANSLATION: Israel would not dare

:22:11.:22:17.

to attack Iran, you can be sure of that. However, we are ready for any

:22:18.:22:21.

course case scenarios, but at the same time we are sure that Israel

:22:21.:22:26.

would not undertake such an operation. After these raids, the

:22:26.:22:31.

stakes in Syria have been raised once again. But if Israel is

:22:31.:22:35.

serious about stopping future transfer of weapons to Hezbollah,

:22:35.:22:42.

they may have to strike again soon, with all the risks that entails.

:22:42.:22:46.

Those fighting against President Assad's forces have now received

:22:46.:22:51.

unwanted backing from Israel. The Syrian conflict has changed again

:22:51.:22:55.

if for no other reason than the powerlessness of the military there

:22:55.:22:58.

to protect their most sensitive installations from Israeli attack

:22:58.:23:08.
:23:08.:23:09.

has been exposed. I'm joined by an Iranian writer and journalist, and

:23:09.:23:14.

Dore Gold, a former Israeli UN ambassador, who also advised

:23:14.:23:17.

Benjamin Netanyahu on foreign policy. Thank you very much for

:23:17.:23:20.

joining me. Dore Gold, do you think this conference we have heard about

:23:20.:23:24.

late this evening will happen and will it achieve what they want it

:23:24.:23:34.
:23:34.:23:34.

to? From the Israeli perfective -- perspective it is essential that

:23:34.:23:38.

the constant supply of weaponry to Hezbollah is stopped. Especially

:23:38.:23:45.

the heavy weaponry, the rockets, like The Fat Duck 1-10, and the

:23:45.:23:50.

counter aircraft weaponry that has been flowing in. People forget this

:23:50.:23:55.

fundamental fact, but after the 2006 second Lebanon war, the United

:23:55.:24:00.

Nations Security Council adopted a resolution 1701 that stated flatly

:24:01.:24:05.

that all countries are prohibited from supplying weaponry to Lebanese

:24:05.:24:12.

militias. So just even the supply of a simple sub-machine-gun would

:24:12.:24:16.

be prohibited, but the supply of heavy dangerous weaponry that

:24:16.:24:20.

changes the strategic balance, that is something Israel cannot tolerate

:24:20.:24:23.

and will not allow its cities to be put at risk. It sounds from the way

:24:23.:24:28.

you are talking as if it is too late for diplomacy, is that bluntly

:24:28.:24:34.

how you feel? Well diplomacy started in 2006 with a clear UN

:24:34.:24:39.

security resolution, supported by the United States, UK, Britain,

:24:39.:24:44.

France, Russia, saying that there would be no supply of weaponry to

:24:44.:24:48.

Lebanese militias like Hezbollah. That obviously has been violated

:24:48.:24:51.

massively by Iran, with the assistance of Syria, and that has

:24:51.:24:58.

to come to a halt. Otherwise what Israel will simply not tolerate is

:24:58.:25:06.

a situation whereby let's say new supersonic anti-ship missiles are

:25:06.:25:09.

given to Hezbollah which can be used to threaten the freedom of

:25:09.:25:14.

navigation of Israeli shipping and even put our new gas fields at risk.

:25:14.:25:19.

Interesting that when I raised this issue of the conference you know

:25:19.:25:24.

you hear from Israel who are not even at the table in terms of the

:25:24.:25:28.

Syrian talks, it is all about weaponry. Is it totally unrealistic

:25:28.:25:34.

to think that anything will come out of talks now? Well from the

:25:34.:25:38.

Iranian perspective and looking at the role Iran has played in it, the

:25:38.:25:42.

advice Iran has been giving to Bashar al-Assad all along is

:25:42.:25:47.

compromising projects an image of weak he is in. Iran has envoked the

:25:47.:25:53.

experiences of dictators like Ben Ali in Tunisia and Mubarak in Egypt,

:25:53.:25:56.

they compromised and invited their own demise. That advice they have

:25:56.:26:02.

been giving all along is to stand firm. I think for leaders like in

:26:02.:26:05.

Iran and Bashar al-Assad in Syria, victory looks very different than

:26:06.:26:12.

what we may conceive of in the west. For them they have the long-term in

:26:12.:26:16.

mind, to suffer great costs but to stay in power, despite all of that.

:26:16.:26:20.

So Iran loves showing its people Syria in chaos then? It is very

:26:20.:26:24.

expedient for Iran. Because it holds up a model that a model of

:26:24.:26:30.

what will happen if you seek change. A bloody conflict in which 70,000

:26:30.:26:37.

people have already died. This invites caution inevitably amongst

:26:37.:26:40.

the Irani people who have had a war and revolution in the recent

:26:40.:26:45.

memories of most families. That is the convenient by-product of this

:26:45.:26:50.

for the Iranian regime. Of the calculation that Assad would not

:26:50.:26:59.

respond to the Israeli strikes then? I think President Assad

:26:59.:27:04.

understands that Israel's complaint and constant protest about Syrian

:27:04.:27:10.

behaviour relates to the supply of weaponry to Hezbollah. Israel is

:27:10.:27:14.

not involving itself in the questions of the internal questions

:27:14.:27:22.

of the Syrian Civil War. You heard the response as was portrayed as

:27:22.:27:27.

the Iranian one, that the dictator has been seen to be standing strong.

:27:27.:27:31.

Assad himself this evening said we have the capability of fighting

:27:31.:27:36.

back? Well, but also Syria and the Arab states in general always say

:27:37.:27:41.

they respect the terms of international legitimacy. Here you

:27:41.:27:45.

have UN Security Council resolutions that have said in the

:27:45.:27:51.

clearest of language that Lebanese militias cannot be rearmed, let

:27:51.:27:55.

alone rearmed by these extremely destablising weapons, like the

:27:55.:27:59.

heavy rockets that can hit and do enormous damage to Israeli cities.

:27:59.:28:03.

We are not talking about the cartouches that have been used by

:28:03.:28:08.

ham nas in the Gaza strip, we are talk -- Hamas in the Gaza strip, we

:28:08.:28:13.

are talking about rockets 30-times more powerful. The motivation could

:28:13.:28:17.

be to get these long range missiles into Hezbollah's hands very close

:28:17.:28:25.

to the board we are Israel. Does that sound likely? I think it is

:28:26.:28:29.

plausible at contingency planning Iran might try to move that kind of

:28:29.:28:36.

weaponry to southern Lebanon. attack or defend? To have in place

:28:36.:28:40.

as a deterrent against any potential Israeli strike on Iran's

:28:40.:28:44.

facilities. Despite all the talk about weaponry, I think the reality

:28:44.:28:49.

is all sides of this conflict have a lot to gain by things not

:28:49.:28:53.

escalating further. Could Syria be the proxy war ground, if you like,

:28:53.:28:56.

for conflict between Israel and Iran? I think that's exactly what's

:28:56.:29:00.

happening. We are seeing the Afghanisation of Syria, in which it

:29:00.:29:04.

has become a theatre for proxy strategic warfare between Iran and

:29:04.:29:10.

Israel, on the one hand, Russia is involved. Saudi Arabia and Qatar

:29:10.:29:15.

are arming Sunni militants affiliated with Al-Qaeda. Iran is

:29:15.:29:18.

backing Hezbollah and the Alawites, we are seeing that kind of staging

:29:18.:29:23.

ground. Thank you very much indeed. Nigel Lawson said it, many in his

:29:23.:29:30.

party already think it, the UK would be better off outside the EU

:29:30.:29:33.

Tomorrow is David Cameron's first chance to show if and how Ukip's

:29:33.:29:36.

success in the local elections last week will affect the tone of his

:29:36.:29:41.

policy making going forward. Has the Queen's Speech been hastily

:29:41.:29:44.

rewritten this bank holiday weekend, or is the coalition confident

:29:44.:29:48.

enough to hang on to what it has trailed before. Take us through,

:29:48.:29:53.

first of all, Lord Lawson's comments, why are they so

:29:53.:29:57.

potentially damaging? What Lord Lawson has done is taken David

:29:57.:30:03.

Cameron's sensitively scheduled Europe strategy, because it had a

:30:03.:30:08.

series, a sequence of events, and has fast-forwarded it to the most

:30:08.:30:10.

difficult and troublesome bit. David Cameron said he wanted to

:30:10.:30:13.

renegotiate and he will come back and be triumphant, and say these

:30:13.:30:17.

are the bits I have renegotiated for you, now you can have a vote.

:30:17.:30:21.

What Lord Lawson has said is that most difficult bit will be

:30:21.:30:26.

meaningless. Here he can talking to my colleague Nick Robinson earlier.

:30:26.:30:34.

Also they are afraid too, and I have a lot of friend in the

:30:34.:30:38.

eurocracy, they all have this view too. They don't believe there is

:30:38.:30:42.

anything, because they are frightened if they give anything to

:30:42.:30:45.

us other countries will say they want this and that and the whole

:30:45.:30:52.

thing will begin to unravel. The renegotiation is just a figleaf,

:30:52.:30:55.

I'm afraid. The choice now whether David Cameron responds to that sort

:30:55.:31:01.

of language and indeed the results for Ukip last year? I mean figleaf

:31:01.:31:06.

is pretty painful, and "inconsequential", painful words

:31:06.:31:10.

when it took so long for the Prime Minister to figure out exactly what

:31:10.:31:14.

he wanted to say. The problem for Conservatives, looking at Lord

:31:14.:31:18.

Lawson, he's incredibly respected, in and out of Ten Downing Street,

:31:18.:31:23.

this isn't a person from eras past. The problem is they have to take

:31:23.:31:27.

him seriously, but also he's speaking to the group out there

:31:27.:31:30.

that thinks because the Prime Minister won't say what he wants to

:31:30.:31:32.

renegotiate. He won't say that because he doesn't want that

:31:32.:31:36.

shopping list for you and I to say you didn't get X therefore you have

:31:36.:31:40.

failed. He won't do that. He is in a weaker position. But he has to

:31:40.:31:43.

set out that kind of thing, they think, ahead of the next election,

:31:43.:31:48.

otherwise the fear is that we end up with the same sort of stories,

:31:48.:31:51.

Lord Lawson today and other people in the future, who pop out of the

:31:51.:31:56.

wood work, say these things and the agenda is dominated by it. The

:31:56.:32:00.

problem with the Thursday by- election, but also the elections,

:32:00.:32:03.

is this sense of trust. People voted Ukip because of Europe,

:32:03.:32:06.

immigration and a lot of things, but also possibly because at the

:32:06.:32:10.

heart of it they felt that a lot of politicians don't actually honour

:32:10.:32:14.

their words. That is what a lot of people I have spoken to today said.

:32:15.:32:17.

The question of the referendum feeds into that. That if you

:32:18.:32:22.

haven't done something that you said you would do ages ago and you

:32:22.:32:25.

have this policy that is for tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow

:32:25.:32:34.

then you are on weak ground. With me is Conservative MP Margot

:32:34.:32:39.

James, and her colleague, Douglas Carswell, who has called for a Tory

:32:39.:32:45.

counter-insurgency against Ukip. Margot James, Lord Lawson has

:32:45.:32:47.

totally undermined the Prime Minister's Europe strategy with

:32:47.:32:51.

that? Certainly it was a bit of a bombshell, I would agree. But I

:32:51.:32:56.

read the article, and I found it wanting in several major respects.

:32:56.:33:03.

I thought the way he dismissed the Prime Minister's strategy of

:33:03.:33:08.

negotiating reformed Europe was really flawed. I mean he likened it

:33:08.:33:12.

to 1975 and Harold Wilson's renegotiation. It was more than

:33:12.:33:16.

that, he said he has spoken to people within the eurozone who have

:33:16.:33:19.

made it utterly clear that they won't shift any ground. That is a

:33:19.:33:23.

big full stop isn't it? That's possibly a negotiating strategy. I

:33:23.:33:26.

don't suppose he has spoken to everyone who is going to be

:33:26.:33:29.

involved in making these decisions. I think he's overlooking the fact

:33:29.:33:32.

that we are already making progress. This isn't going to be one set of

:33:32.:33:36.

negotiations on a specific date at some point in the future. It is on

:33:36.:33:40.

going business, and we are making progress. Douglas Carswell, there

:33:40.:33:43.

will be some saying it is your fault, those on the right who

:33:43.:33:50.

pushed him to promise this referendum which now has not gone

:33:50.:33:55.

far enough? I think Nigel Lawson's intervention sin credibly

:33:55.:33:58.

significant, he understands economics, one of the most

:33:59.:34:01.

successful Chancellors we have produced, and someone who advocated

:34:01.:34:08.

to joining the ERM, the precursor to the euro now saying we should

:34:08.:34:11.

get out. I think this strengthening the argument for what David Cameron

:34:11.:34:16.

announced in January, which is to make sure that we have an in-out

:34:16.:34:20.

referendum. Of course if Lord Lawson hadn't said it now, three

:34:20.:34:25.

years too early? People say that the problem is that he's undermined

:34:25.:34:29.

the idea that we can renegotiate. The beauty of an in-out referendum

:34:29.:34:34.

is that Brussels is not just going to have to negotiate with the

:34:34.:34:36.

Whitehall mandarins or David Cameron, they are negotiating with

:34:36.:34:40.

the whole British people. And any deal that comes back is going to

:34:40.:34:43.

have to persuade the constituents that elected me, that it is

:34:43.:34:47.

worthwhile remaining insight. want that now, of course?

:34:47.:34:50.

Personally speaking I would love us to bring forward the legislation

:34:50.:34:54.

now for an in-out referendum. Before 2015? Absolutely. But part

:34:54.:34:58.

of me actually thinks, no, we need a couple of years actually to make

:34:58.:35:03.

the case for withdrawal. Is there any chance that could happen now?

:35:03.:35:06.

think it is very unlikely. It would be unlikely any way to get a bill

:35:06.:35:10.

through parliament. The numbers are stacked again that. I think that

:35:10.:35:15.

the Prime Minister has committed to the very earliest point that he can

:35:15.:35:17.

commit to knowing that parliamentary arithmetic. Which is

:35:18.:35:22.

if a Conservative Government is elected we will have an in-out

:35:22.:35:25.

referendum. He has become the Prime Minister who pushes things with a

:35:25.:35:27.

vague promise of something happening finally and the

:35:27.:35:32.

electorate is no longer trusting that? I don't think it was a vague

:35:32.:35:37.

promise, I think it was a cast iron commitment to a referendum if the

:35:37.:35:41.

Conservatives get elected at the 2015 election. Two years and too

:35:41.:35:45.

many ifs, and they remember Lisbon? There won't be any point in

:35:45.:35:49.

producing a referendum bill only set to failure. I wouldn't be

:35:49.:35:53.

totally surprised that in the Queen's Speech we see proposals for

:35:53.:35:57.

an in-out bill. What do you mean, do you know this is coming up?

:35:57.:36:02.

at all, but if I was in Number Ten and I wanted to address the issue

:36:02.:36:06.

of plausibilty I would be prepared to bring it through. Now if MPs

:36:06.:36:08.

then voted to prevent that bill going through, we could see the

:36:08.:36:13.

names of those MPs and the voters could make up their minds? What you

:36:13.:36:17.

are saying is Ukip calls the tune now? We are in a democracy and the

:36:17.:36:20.

voters want change. And the strategy then is for David Cameron

:36:20.:36:24.

to look at Ukip's success and say we need to do what they are telling

:36:24.:36:28.

us to do? Generally speaking in a democracy, when mainstream parties

:36:28.:36:32.

are losing touch with the voters, the idea is you should recognise it

:36:32.:36:35.

is not the fault of the voter, perhaps it is something that the

:36:35.:36:38.

two-and-a-half party system is failing to ifrdl. Our fundamental

:36:38.:36:43.

problem is...Is That right, you must start listeninging and follow

:36:43.:36:48.

the Ukip lead? We never stopped listening. To Ukip, what they are

:36:48.:36:51.

saying on Bulgaria and Romania at the end of the year? I don't think

:36:51.:36:55.

it is Ukip we are listening to, it is the license rate, the people in

:36:55.:36:59.

our constituencies, the people who contact us week in week out. Those

:36:59.:37:04.

are the people we are listening to. It is clearly not otherwise they

:37:04.:37:07.

wouldn't have left the Tories? commitment that the Prime Minister

:37:07.:37:10.

made to an in-out referendum was made long before these local

:37:10.:37:18.

election results. It was it was made more in response to the

:37:18.:37:21.

Conservative Party and the public than it was in response it a

:37:21.:37:28.

political party There was an important Maiduguri, as someone who

:37:28.:37:33.

wants the UK out of Europe and wants an in-out referendum, I don't

:37:33.:37:38.

think the key problem is policy s even if we delivered the policy

:37:38.:37:42.

want would solve the problem, I don't think so. The reason so many

:37:42.:37:46.

people vote Ukip is they don't like the two-and-a-half party system,

:37:46.:37:50.

there is a lack of authenticity, there is a feeling that all

:37:50.:37:54.

politicians are in it together. That we are perhaps a little bit

:37:54.:37:58.

smug, out-of-touch. Think we know that Ukip are the insurgents, we

:37:58.:38:05.

need a counter insurgency strategy. Does that mean risking losing the

:38:05.:38:09.

centre ground? What it means first and foremost is we stop doing

:38:09.:38:14.

politics as a Westminster party with a few local franchises. We

:38:14.:38:20.

actually open up the party strategy so people own it a grassroots

:38:20.:38:23.

strategy again. The Queen's Speech will also pave

:38:23.:38:28.

the way for part two of HS2, releasing funding for the early

:38:28.:38:32.

stages of the design of the high- speed rail link. Much has been made

:38:32.:38:34.

of its potential for allowing economic developments to reach

:38:34.:38:39.

parts of the country it doesn't normally reach. How much truth is

:38:39.:38:45.

there to. That we have been off to find out.

:38:45.:38:50.

There are many arguments made for high-speed rail, but the one the

:38:50.:38:54.

politicians routinely reach for is this one? We do need to rebalance

:38:54.:38:58.

the economy. It has been too dominated by the south and by

:38:58.:39:02.

certain industries and I think high-speed rail will really help to

:39:02.:39:09.

create a better balanced economy. It is their go-to argument whenever

:39:09.:39:15.

the �34 billion price tag for HS2 is questioned. I think it will help

:39:15.:39:19.

heal the north-south divide, which for so long as blighted the British

:39:19.:39:24.

economy. You can see why the politics of high-speed rail is

:39:24.:39:27.

attractive to the Government. And the economic case also seems to

:39:27.:39:31.

have a certain plausibilty about it. If you half the journey times to

:39:31.:39:34.

northern cities, well companies will be queuing up to relocate

:39:34.:39:39.

their business away from the south. But is there any actual evidence

:39:39.:39:42.

that this could or will happen? Is there any actual evidence that if

:39:43.:39:46.

there is an economic dividend to be had from high-speed rail, it will

:39:46.:39:54.

go to the north and not to the south. If we look at the evidence

:39:54.:39:58.

from economic analysis and expowerence elsewhere around the

:39:58.:40:03.

world, it is difficult to prove a link between building high-speed

:40:03.:40:08.

rail lines and closing regional inequalities or disparities. Very

:40:08.:40:12.

difficult indeed. In terms of there is evidence it seems to suggest

:40:12.:40:15.

that capital cities gain the most from the building of these new

:40:15.:40:22.

high-speed rail lines. There is no point me hanging around here

:40:22.:40:26.

waiting for the first high-speed train to Manchester or Leeds. They

:40:26.:40:32.

won't be departing until 20.33 at the very earliest. However high-

:40:32.:40:36.

speed rail is not a new idea. There are plenty of cities in the world

:40:36.:40:39.

that already have it, where the economic impacts are well

:40:39.:40:48.

documented. This can probably claim to be the world's first high-speed

:40:48.:40:55.

railway, the propeller-driven Zeppelin train that hit 145 miles

:40:55.:41:05.

an hour in Germany. Perhaps we need a more modern example? Here in

:41:05.:41:08.

Spain they have the future for 20 years lr. Back in 1992 the

:41:08.:41:12.

Government built a high-speed rail line between Madrid and Seville,

:41:12.:41:15.

the objective was clear, they wanted to spread the wealth, jobs

:41:15.:41:20.

and opportunity away from the rich capital in the north to the

:41:20.:41:23.

impoverished south. Reverse the geography and you have a very

:41:23.:41:27.

familiar argument. What I want to find out is after 20 years of

:41:27.:41:34.

having high-speed rail has any of this actually worked? I certainly

:41:34.:41:37.

didn't meet anyone in Spain who wanted to go back to the days

:41:37.:41:41.

before high-speed rail. Least of all the President of the Company

:41:41.:41:48.

that runs the trains. Most of the people were quite critical with

:41:48.:41:52.

first doping the line between Madrid and Seville rather than

:41:52.:41:56.

between Madrid and Barcelona or other more popular places. But it

:41:56.:42:01.

was really successful. Most of the people will come again by train

:42:02.:42:05.

transportation. There has been a lot of development in Seville and

:42:05.:42:12.

also in the surroundings of Madrid. So the balance of these first high-

:42:12.:42:16.

speed trains in 1992 was really successful. The Spanish experience

:42:16.:42:21.

is that the territory is very suitable for high-speed train. I

:42:21.:42:29.

think that this is a case for the United Kingdom too.

:42:29.:42:34.

The journey to Seville now takes two at a quarter hours, as opposed

:42:35.:42:39.

to seven hours by train and ten by car before advent of high-speed

:42:39.:42:42.

rail. That is undoubtedly a huge benefit to the people who already

:42:43.:42:48.

had to make the trip. But, say economist, the Andalucia region

:42:48.:42:53.

itself hasn't benefited nearly as much as you might expect.

:42:53.:42:59.

problem with Seville and the south of Spain is that there is a lack of

:42:59.:43:04.

other conditions like for example skills in people, attitudes,

:43:04.:43:09.

diversification of the economy. So the high-speed train contributes

:43:09.:43:14.

but a little. Nowadays to promote a region you need innovation, you

:43:14.:43:18.

need education, you need good attitudes from people. Those things

:43:18.:43:23.

in Seville and the south of Spain they are not promoted or developed.

:43:23.:43:28.

Have many companies relocated their operation from Madrid to Seville?

:43:28.:43:35.

don't think so. No. In Seville I have come to see a company that has

:43:35.:43:45.
:43:45.:43:45.

relocated and loves high-speed rail. Altmann sources and tests the

:43:45.:43:49.

components that go into -- this company sources and tests the

:43:49.:43:55.

component that is go into sat right. They relocated in 1992 from Madrid

:43:55.:44:01.

to Seville. It has been a tremendous achievement in the sense

:44:01.:44:06.

of time. It takes between two and a quarter and two-and-a-half hours to

:44:07.:44:11.

get there are centre to centre. right next door to this high-tech

:44:11.:44:16.

lab there is another story to tell. This was the site of the 1992

:44:16.:44:20.

Seville expo. The high-speed rail line was part of the futuristic

:44:20.:44:26.

package. When the expo closed the local Government offered very

:44:26.:44:29.

generous incentives to companies like this to move in. It was this

:44:29.:44:33.

and the other supsidies that tempted them to relocate, not just

:44:33.:44:38.

the line. We moved mainly because for three reasons, the first one of

:44:38.:44:43.

the support of the local Government and the City Council. They were

:44:43.:44:49.

providing at that time to companies move. The second one of the

:44:49.:44:53.

existence of a very good technical university in Seville. It is a good

:44:53.:44:58.

source for a highly qualified and motivated professionals. Then the

:44:58.:45:02.

last one that would have been excluded was the existence of good

:45:02.:45:07.

connections with Madrid. Would you have moved without the availability

:45:07.:45:17.
:45:17.:45:18.

of this building at a very good rate? Possibly not. This is not

:45:18.:45:23.

that far off what they had in Spain before high-speed rail. So the

:45:23.:45:28.

savings in journey times were huge, far higher than promised for the UK,

:45:28.:45:32.

which is already pretty well connected. That's why a Labour

:45:32.:45:36.

Government review concluded that such a scheme wasn't worth the cost.

:45:36.:45:40.

And if there are any benefits from reduced journey times for the UK,

:45:40.:45:44.

economyists say they are likely to go to firms in London.

:45:44.:45:48.

More productive firms in cities like London will be able to serve

:45:48.:45:53.

distant markets in northern cities, much more efficiently from the

:45:53.:45:58.

existing base rather than from bases located in the northern

:45:58.:46:04.

cities. So if the time to market is reduced between London and the

:46:04.:46:09.

northern cities, that is going to mainly benefit firms already based

:46:09.:46:13.

in London. That seems to be what happens in most of the case around

:46:13.:46:18.

the world where the railway lines are introduced. If you had a London

:46:18.:46:21.

and Manchester office, and high- speed rail comes along, you might

:46:21.:46:24.

be tempted to close the office because you can serve the

:46:24.:46:32.

Manchester market from London? run the office down over time.

:46:32.:46:38.

"their lawns our jobs" that was the slogan of those opposing the scheme,

:46:38.:46:45.

nim bees standing in the way of regeneration in the north.

:46:45.:46:48.

finding any clear evidence that is what would happen has been

:46:48.:46:53.

difficult. Of course it would be amazing if building something like

:46:53.:47:03.
:47:03.:47:05.

this, spending �34 billion on a new rail line didn't some -- create

:47:05.:47:15.
:47:15.:47:50.

some jobs. But could the money be The * telegraph suggests that Sir

:47:50.:47:55.

Alex Fergsuoned my be about to to call time on his career at

:47:55.:47:59.

Manchester United. There will be more on that tomorrow. We learned

:47:59.:48:06.

today that the animator Ray Harrison has died aged 92. We leave

:48:06.:48:16.
:48:16.:48:43.

Hello, after the UK's warmest day of the year so far, the weather is

:48:43.:48:47.

now in a mood to change. And Wednesday brings a band of rain

:48:47.:48:50.

spreading north, not going to northern Scotland until the evening

:48:50.:48:53.

and behind it will brighten up in Northern Ireland and England and

:48:53.:48:56.

Wales as we go through the afternoon. Bright spells but a much

:48:56.:48:59.

fresher feel in Northern Ireland with the stronger breeze. Some rain

:48:59.:49:03.

through the central belt at 4.00. The far north of Scotland with

:49:03.:49:07.

warmth but with a strengthening wind, the rain getting in during

:49:07.:49:10.

the evening. Across northern England behind the rain it will

:49:10.:49:13.

brighten up, we also see heavy showers breaking out, particularly

:49:13.:49:18.

through central and eastern parts of England through the mid-to-laid

:49:18.:49:23.

afternoon maybe with a rumble of thunder. Bright spells to breezy

:49:23.:49:27.

conditions, still warm high teens but not the 20s we saw today. The

:49:27.:49:31.

fresher feel into south England and Wales. Plenty of dry weather to end

:49:31.:49:35.

the day, maybe the odd passing shower in the brisk south-westerly

:49:35.:49:39.

wind. It stays fairly unsettled as we go through the re- of the week.

:49:39.:49:44.

For Wednesday most of us will see a -- the rest of the week, most of us

:49:44.:49:48.

will see rain coming through during Thursday and the difference on

:49:48.:49:52.

Thursday will be an even stronger wind. It looks as if southern

:49:52.:49:56.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. As three women are rescued after ten years captivity in a house in Ohio, Newsnight speaks to the family of one of the victims.


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