07/05/2013 Newsnight


Analysis of the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. As three women are rescued after ten years captivity in a house in Ohio, Newsnight speaks to the family of one of the victims.

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$:/STARTFEED. Tonight extraordinary scenes in ordinary America.


Jubilation as three women and a girl are released after years held


captive in suburban Ohio. Rescued by a neighbour who thought he was


hearing the screams of a domestic row. I saw this girl she's going


nuts on the door, I'm like what's your problem, are you stuck, just


open the door. She said she couldn't, he has it looked.


speak to the family of one of the victims.


In the last couple of hours Russia and America have called for an


International Conference on Syria, could it be too late to stop a


regional war. If Israel is now resorting to air


strikes to stop Lebanon's Hezbollah getting advanced weapons, this


won't be the last attack, and a wider conflict may already be under


way. Former Chancellor, Lord Lawson


mocks the Prime Minister's Europe strategy and says that Britain


should leave the EU. The renegotiation is just a fibleaf


I'm afraid. Will Number Ten be forced to come up with a new policy


all over again. We speak to two Conservative MPs.


Is high-speed rail the answer to the north-south divide, in


Andalucia they have had it for years, but the money has stayed in


Madrid. I want to find out if after 20 years of high-speed rail has any


of this actually worked? Help me get out, I have been in


here a long time, the dozen words that signalled the end of a decade-


long ordeal, three women held hostage in an Ohio basement. Amanda


Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michele Knight disappeared from the same


Cleveland neighbourhood some ten years ago. They were found all


together just a couple of miles from where they had gone missing.


Two had been at the centre of a major police search, the third had


virtually fallen off the radar. Tonight praise for the women's


bravery as authorities admit they didn't have a clue. Questions into


how police failed to misthe alarms that neighbours had -- miss the


alarms that neighbours had raised up to two years earlier. We will


hear from a relative of Amanda Berry who is critical of the police


search for her family member. It was a prison for a decade,


nobody knew. Neighbours barbecued with the owner, there were no


complaints to police. But inside this house three women were kept


captive since disappearing from Cleveland streets around ten years


ago. Amanda Berry was 16 when she went missing on her way back from


work in April 2003. Her ordeal ended yesterday when she seized a


chance to escape. In hospital she was reunited with her family. With


her a six-year-old girl found at the house. Amanda Berry's daughter.


The real hero here is Amanda. I mean she is the real hero. She's


the one that got this rolling. We're just following her lead,


without her none of us would be here today. After a neighbour heard


her cry for help, Amanda Berry made a frantic phone call to police.


Hello police, help me, I'm Amanda Berry. You need police, fire or


ambulance. I need police. What's going on there? I have been


kidnapped and I have been missing for ten years and I'm here, I'm


free now. OK stay there with those neighbours. Can you help me, please.


You need to come now. We will get there as soon as you get a car open.


I need them now before he gets back. I heard her screaming, I'm eating a


McDonalds, I come outside and I see this girl going nuts trying to get


out of a house. I go on the porch. I go on the porch and she says


"help me get out, I have been here a long time". So I figured it was


domestic violence dispute, I open the door and we can't get in that


way because how the door is, it is so much that a body can't fit


through it only a hand, so we kicked the bottom, and she comes


out with the little girl and she says call 911, my name is Amanda


Berry. Also discovered in the house was Gina DeJesus, she was 14 when


she disappeared on her way home from school. Another woman, Michele


Knight, was also found. All three were last seen on Lorain Avenue in


Cleveland between 2003 and 12004. The house where they were held is


across the city on Seymour avenue. It belongs to this man, Ariel


Castro, a former school bus driver, police have arrested him and his


two brothers. In this stunned neighbourhood everyone is asking


the same question, how could they not know. The captive women were


never seen. There was no noise, there were no clues. Although one


neighbour had her concerns about the house. When I found out there


was a little girl up there that I saw her, I questioned them, he


shouldn't have a little girl because he doesn't have any women


in there, how could there be a four or five-year-old in the house.


There are serious questions for the police to, why didn't they join the


dots between these disappearances. They actually visited the address


twice. Once in 2000 because of a fight in the street, and again in


204 after Ariel Castro left a child una-- 204 after Ariel Castro left a


child unattended on a bus he was driving. Police knocked on the door


but nobody answered. For now there are no ce cim nations, only relief


-- recriminations, only relief. These three young ladies have


provided us with the ultimate definition of survival and


perseverance. The healing can now begin. The three women have now


been released from hospital. Reunited with families who doubted


they would ever see them again. I spoke a little earlier to Tina


Miller, the cousin of Amanda Berry, one of the three women rescued


yesterday. I asked her how the family learned Amanda had been


freed? I was actually at my son's yesterday. My sister called me on


the phone and someone actually had called her and told her that Amanda


of alive. This is what news my sister passed on to me. Of course


can you imagine, you don't think that you are going to hear these


words after ten years of not seeing her. So it was very surreal for me.


I mean you can imagine all the emotions, is it real, can it be


true, all the things that we have gone through. You know, what we


have heard. People saying they know her where abouts. Digginging for


her, so as you can -- digging for her, as you can imagine it was


quite overwhelming. Your hopes had been face raised before? Absolutely,


she was my cousin, her mother and my mother are sisters. You know I


have seen what it did to my aunt. It just destroyed her. To think


that she was in our own home town and in Cleveland, that is just


something that I can't even grasp still to this day. Amanda


disappeared ten years ago or me, did you think she was still alive?


As the years went on it was ...it was a little difficult because you


know, you kind of start to lose hope. You hear all these stories


with these girls being taken and human trafficking and you know,


will you ever see her again, you know. You just run through your


mind that you know the things I still hear her voice and you know,


I remember how she you know brushed her hair and how she looked and you


know. It is just, no, it was very hard for me at the end. When we had


her ten-year vigil it was very hard. How does that feel to know she was


only a few miles from the places the searches must have been going


on? It is incredible. How do you think that would feel? You have


them digging for her, you know, just a block or two from where she


actually was in captivity. That is incredible. You need to get to know


your where abouts, because somebody can sit with you, as I'm here right


now and you don't know what I have going on inside my house. It does


seem incredible, as you say, that the guy who discovered her, or who


she made contact with talked about the neighbour, and sharing ribs and


barbecues without ever suspecting him, right? You don't know who your


neighbours are. You need to find out what is going on. There is


being nosey and there is being cautious. You just want to know


where you are at. Has it taught you anything more about the police


search, because we know that the police went to the house, they were


called there a couple of years ago, and they went away when nobody


answered the door? For myself I think that the police could have


done a little bit more when she first came up missing. She was


classified as a runaway, that is not in her character. I don't care


how old you are, if you are 25, if you are missing you are missing.


What do you want to come out of this? You and your family have been


through something that is almost inconceivable for most people?


want for human trafficking to stop. These are girls, they are not money.


You don't make money off of people. We are not slaves, no-one should


own us, we are free, that is why good gives us that. We are not


meant to be sold into slavery. Held against our will into captivity. We


just need to get more laws passed. Thank you very much. Matt Zone is a


Cleveland City Councillor who has known a family of the other rescued


women, Gina DeJesus, since she went missing in 2004. He spent time with


the family this evening. Thank you very much, tell us how the family


are? The family is in a little shock right now. I was not able to


talk to Gina's mother and father, Nancy and Felix, they are with Gina


right now. But I did speak with her aunt who saw Gina and was able to


be with her as well as some cousins. They are a little overwhelmed.


There is a whole range of emotions that are going on as you can just


imagine. Gina is out of hospital, is she physically well? She is out


of the hospital, physically she's well. But there is ten years that


have gone by and you know we just, there is concern from the family as


well as people in the community how Gina's going to do, not only in the


next 30-days, but how is she going to be a year from now, two years


from now, five years from now. know Gina's family, but you also


know the suspect's family as well, they are pretty known around the


neighbourhood, right? I do. The Castro family is a prominent family


in the Hispanic community. The City of Cleveland's about a population


of 400,000 and roughly 10% are Hispanic. The patriarch of the


family, Cese Castro is well known and respected businessman in our


community. His brother Holio owns a hardware store around the corner


from where they found the suspects. It is shocking to think that this


could happen. I know there is embarrassment right now for the


Castro family with the thought that the suspect is actually a relative.


The question is how did nobody know, I mean as you say, a well known


family and a street where it looked as if everyone talked to each other,


sat out on their porches, passed each other by, how do you think


this was missed? In this part of our city, I mean Seymour Avenue


where they found the girls, it is more of a transient street. There


is not a whole lot of owner- occupiers, mostly rentals. There is


foreclosed unit as well as several condemned and boarded up houses on


the street. I think what is happening over time is when you


have more stable streets people start to know who their neighbours


are and look out for them. That might be why that kind of flew


underneath the radar screen. Tina, as you may have heard, was quite


critical of the police search when she talked to me earlier, they said


they had treated her as a missing person who had just gone off rather


than someone who had disappeared. Do you think the police have


serious questions to ask themselves about how this investigation was


conducted? I think the community in general has serious questions to


answer. Not only do the police, but the greater community. As well as


the families of these individuals, and the family of the suspect. We


all have to be accountable at the end of the day. It is easy right


now to point fingers, but we have to let the investigation unfold,


see how this thing plays out. At the end of the day we will get the


facts and we will get to the bottom of this. Where does the police


investigation go, they were called to the house a couple of years ago,


but walked away when nobody answered the door, right? I will


tell you in defence of our police department they really have


exhausted all efforts to find these young women. Every time a lead came


in they followed up on it. I have discussed this with our safety


director as well as our police chief. Just recently as last year


the City of Cleveland spent to close to several hundred thousand


dollars based on a tip they received from somebody that the


girls might have been buried in a field just several blocks from


where they found them. And they spent all night, 48 continuous


hours combing that area. It was based on a tip. So I'm not ready to


say that the police didn't do all that they should. Sure, and just


take us through what their strategy is now, what are they currently


working at? Sure, we are working very closely with multiple law


enforcement agencies. The Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI,


is kind of handling the lead for the investigations right now. All


of the interviewing process is being done through the FBI. The US


marshall service is involved, as well as our police department, and


our county Sheriff's department, all working in Unison with one


another to try to -- unison with one another to try to build a


timeline from the time the ladies went missing until he had why.


Piecing together all the interviews and creating a timeline for how


things sequentialally have happened. Later this evening Russia and the


United States have pledged to try to push both sides of the Syrian


conflict to forge political transition. They want to build on


plan set out last year. Senator John Kerry says it shouldn't be a


piece of paper, but it comes as tension in the regions run high.


Two attacks by Israel on Syrian targets raise the prospect of its


deep involvement. Syria's President said his country could confront


Israeli aggression. What to make of it? Well this


process that has been announced tonight in Moscow, talks between


the Russian Foreign Minister and John Kerry the US Secretary of


State does appear to offer some thin sliver of hope. It could be


that it is due to the worsening of the situation that they have been


spurred into trying to do something. The White House has said, following


on from the announcement that its consideration of arming the Syrian


opposition is now being put on hold. Until they see whether this can get


somewhere. This was John Kerry earlier this evening. We have


agreed to use our good offices, both of us, to bring both sides to


the table working with our other core coalition partners and other


allies and interested party to bring both sides to the table in


partnership with the concern of foreign countries, that a committed


themselves to helping the Syrians to find a prompt and political


solution within the Geneva framework. John Kerry said he


doesn't want it to be a piece of paper, but can the two sides


realistically come around the table together at this point? This has


been the critical question when talks were held last year in Geneva.


It became pretty clear that the two sides of the Al-Assad Government


and the opposition just didn't have the will to do this. There were


preconditions talked about on both sides and they weren't prepared to


close the gap. The Russian Foreign Minister, I many you may say


putting a Russian spin on this evening, he claimed he had spoken


to the Syrian Government, they were prepared to come. They were


prepared to talk without conditions. And he implied that they were


willing to do it, but there was a question about whether the


opposition would. They have often said the ouster of the Al-Assad


Government is a precondition for talks. It is a difficult situation.


They are unlikely to bridge the gap, all the other indicators in the


region of increasing ethnic violence for example in one of the


Alawite areas close to the coast, in attacks over the weekend,


indicate a further rising of tension regionally. President Assad


himself has been on television this evening, responding to the Israeli


air strikes saying it is part of this broad conspiracy by regional


powers, the west and Israel, he said it was just another face of


the terrorism the country is up against today. Allah hu Akbar.


Allah hu Akbar. So now Israel is being drawn into Syria's strive in


a highly visible fashion. A series of air strikes starting on Friday


has brought the two countries to the brink of war and spread alarm


in the region. TRANSLATION: Israeli air strike on Damascus is


completely unacceptable, there is no excuse or pretext that can


justify this operation. These raids are nothing but opportunities,


trump cards present today Al-Assad on a golden plate. Israel gambled


that its bombing, which it still hasn't officially owned up to


wouldn't trigger an all-out war. But it took precautions against one


happening, calling up a reserve armoured division to reinforce the


border and stationing batteries of its Iron Dome missile defence


system near northern cities. The fear was that retaliation might


come in the form of hundreds rockets from Hezbollah, the


Lebanese militant Shi'ite movement, closely allied to Syria and Iran.


Israel's strategy is now focused on thwarting that alliance. In Israel


the set of priorities, Iran, Syria and what happened in Egypt in the


Sinai are the top three priorities right now in the region. The


combination of these weapons handing into the hands of Iranian


allies is up there with their priority, there is a real fear in


Israel that these weapons will be used. Either immediately or in the


very near future either from the Golan Heights or Lebanon. Or in


future conflicts between Israel and Hezbollah. They take it very


seriously. Israel's targets reportedly over a weapons convoy


with sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles in January. And again near


the Lebanese border four days ago, seemed to confirm an agenda of


trying to prevent transfers of advanced weapons to Hezbollah. The


recent strikes were apparently aimed at missiles called Fateh 110s,


being transfered from Iran to the Lebanese militant movement via


Syria. These would put much of northern Israel in range. The


Israelis have also struck the Jamraya research facility twice,


both in January and the last few days. It is claimed to be a


chemical weapons storage point. Syria has promised unspecified


retaliation if Israel attacks again. But Palestinian groups there say


they have been given the OK to attack Israel across the Golan


Heights frontier. Meanwhile Iran has been trying to beef up


Hezbollah's Arsenal as a means of deterring an Israeli attack on its


nuclear facilities. Putting Fateh missiles in southern Lebanon gives


Iran potentially a powerful retaliatory option against Israel.


The question now is whether Israel's action will cause Iran or


Syria, far from stopping, to accelerate their weapons deliveries


to Hezbollah, leading all sides into further escalation. If there


is a broader confrontation with Iran that country has responded to


the weekend's air strikes defiantly. TRANSLATION: Israel would not dare


to attack Iran, you can be sure of that. However, we are ready for any


course case scenarios, but at the same time we are sure that Israel


would not undertake such an operation. After these raids, the


stakes in Syria have been raised once again. But if Israel is


serious about stopping future transfer of weapons to Hezbollah,


they may have to strike again soon, with all the risks that entails.


Those fighting against President Assad's forces have now received


unwanted backing from Israel. The Syrian conflict has changed again


if for no other reason than the powerlessness of the military there


to protect their most sensitive installations from Israeli attack


has been exposed. I'm joined by an Iranian writer and journalist, and


Dore Gold, a former Israeli UN ambassador, who also advised


Benjamin Netanyahu on foreign policy. Thank you very much for


joining me. Dore Gold, do you think this conference we have heard about


late this evening will happen and will it achieve what they want it


to? From the Israeli perfective -- perspective it is essential that


the constant supply of weaponry to Hezbollah is stopped. Especially


the heavy weaponry, the rockets, like The Fat Duck 1-10, and the


counter aircraft weaponry that has been flowing in. People forget this


fundamental fact, but after the 2006 second Lebanon war, the United


Nations Security Council adopted a resolution 1701 that stated flatly


that all countries are prohibited from supplying weaponry to Lebanese


militias. So just even the supply of a simple sub-machine-gun would


be prohibited, but the supply of heavy dangerous weaponry that


changes the strategic balance, that is something Israel cannot tolerate


and will not allow its cities to be put at risk. It sounds from the way


you are talking as if it is too late for diplomacy, is that bluntly


how you feel? Well diplomacy started in 2006 with a clear UN


security resolution, supported by the United States, UK, Britain,


France, Russia, saying that there would be no supply of weaponry to


Lebanese militias like Hezbollah. That obviously has been violated


massively by Iran, with the assistance of Syria, and that has


to come to a halt. Otherwise what Israel will simply not tolerate is


a situation whereby let's say new supersonic anti-ship missiles are


given to Hezbollah which can be used to threaten the freedom of


navigation of Israeli shipping and even put our new gas fields at risk.


Interesting that when I raised this issue of the conference you know


you hear from Israel who are not even at the table in terms of the


Syrian talks, it is all about weaponry. Is it totally unrealistic


to think that anything will come out of talks now? Well from the


Iranian perspective and looking at the role Iran has played in it, the


advice Iran has been giving to Bashar al-Assad all along is


compromising projects an image of weak he is in. Iran has envoked the


experiences of dictators like Ben Ali in Tunisia and Mubarak in Egypt,


they compromised and invited their own demise. That advice they have


been giving all along is to stand firm. I think for leaders like in


Iran and Bashar al-Assad in Syria, victory looks very different than


what we may conceive of in the west. For them they have the long-term in


mind, to suffer great costs but to stay in power, despite all of that.


So Iran loves showing its people Syria in chaos then? It is very


expedient for Iran. Because it holds up a model that a model of


what will happen if you seek change. A bloody conflict in which 70,000


people have already died. This invites caution inevitably amongst


the Irani people who have had a war and revolution in the recent


memories of most families. That is the convenient by-product of this


for the Iranian regime. Of the calculation that Assad would not


respond to the Israeli strikes then? I think President Assad


understands that Israel's complaint and constant protest about Syrian


behaviour relates to the supply of weaponry to Hezbollah. Israel is


not involving itself in the questions of the internal questions


of the Syrian Civil War. You heard the response as was portrayed as


the Iranian one, that the dictator has been seen to be standing strong.


Assad himself this evening said we have the capability of fighting


back? Well, but also Syria and the Arab states in general always say


they respect the terms of international legitimacy. Here you


have UN Security Council resolutions that have said in the


clearest of language that Lebanese militias cannot be rearmed, let


alone rearmed by these extremely destablising weapons, like the


heavy rockets that can hit and do enormous damage to Israeli cities.


We are not talking about the cartouches that have been used by


ham nas in the Gaza strip, we are talk -- Hamas in the Gaza strip, we


are talking about rockets 30-times more powerful. The motivation could


be to get these long range missiles into Hezbollah's hands very close


to the board we are Israel. Does that sound likely? I think it is


plausible at contingency planning Iran might try to move that kind of


weaponry to southern Lebanon. attack or defend? To have in place


as a deterrent against any potential Israeli strike on Iran's


facilities. Despite all the talk about weaponry, I think the reality


is all sides of this conflict have a lot to gain by things not


escalating further. Could Syria be the proxy war ground, if you like,


for conflict between Israel and Iran? I think that's exactly what's


happening. We are seeing the Afghanisation of Syria, in which it


has become a theatre for proxy strategic warfare between Iran and


Israel, on the one hand, Russia is involved. Saudi Arabia and Qatar


are arming Sunni militants affiliated with Al-Qaeda. Iran is


backing Hezbollah and the Alawites, we are seeing that kind of staging


ground. Thank you very much indeed. Nigel Lawson said it, many in his


party already think it, the UK would be better off outside the EU


Tomorrow is David Cameron's first chance to show if and how Ukip's


success in the local elections last week will affect the tone of his


policy making going forward. Has the Queen's Speech been hastily


rewritten this bank holiday weekend, or is the coalition confident


enough to hang on to what it has trailed before. Take us through,


first of all, Lord Lawson's comments, why are they so


potentially damaging? What Lord Lawson has done is taken David


Cameron's sensitively scheduled Europe strategy, because it had a


series, a sequence of events, and has fast-forwarded it to the most


difficult and troublesome bit. David Cameron said he wanted to


renegotiate and he will come back and be triumphant, and say these


are the bits I have renegotiated for you, now you can have a vote.


What Lord Lawson has said is that most difficult bit will be


meaningless. Here he can talking to my colleague Nick Robinson earlier.


Also they are afraid too, and I have a lot of friend in the


eurocracy, they all have this view too. They don't believe there is


anything, because they are frightened if they give anything to


us other countries will say they want this and that and the whole


thing will begin to unravel. The renegotiation is just a figleaf,


I'm afraid. The choice now whether David Cameron responds to that sort


of language and indeed the results for Ukip last year? I mean figleaf


is pretty painful, and "inconsequential", painful words


when it took so long for the Prime Minister to figure out exactly what


he wanted to say. The problem for Conservatives, looking at Lord


Lawson, he's incredibly respected, in and out of Ten Downing Street,


this isn't a person from eras past. The problem is they have to take


him seriously, but also he's speaking to the group out there


that thinks because the Prime Minister won't say what he wants to


renegotiate. He won't say that because he doesn't want that


shopping list for you and I to say you didn't get X therefore you have


failed. He won't do that. He is in a weaker position. But he has to


set out that kind of thing, they think, ahead of the next election,


otherwise the fear is that we end up with the same sort of stories,


Lord Lawson today and other people in the future, who pop out of the


wood work, say these things and the agenda is dominated by it. The


problem with the Thursday by- election, but also the elections,


is this sense of trust. People voted Ukip because of Europe,


immigration and a lot of things, but also possibly because at the


heart of it they felt that a lot of politicians don't actually honour


their words. That is what a lot of people I have spoken to today said.


The question of the referendum feeds into that. That if you


haven't done something that you said you would do ages ago and you


have this policy that is for tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow


then you are on weak ground. With me is Conservative MP Margot


James, and her colleague, Douglas Carswell, who has called for a Tory


counter-insurgency against Ukip. Margot James, Lord Lawson has


totally undermined the Prime Minister's Europe strategy with


that? Certainly it was a bit of a bombshell, I would agree. But I


read the article, and I found it wanting in several major respects.


I thought the way he dismissed the Prime Minister's strategy of


negotiating reformed Europe was really flawed. I mean he likened it


to 1975 and Harold Wilson's renegotiation. It was more than


that, he said he has spoken to people within the eurozone who have


made it utterly clear that they won't shift any ground. That is a


big full stop isn't it? That's possibly a negotiating strategy. I


don't suppose he has spoken to everyone who is going to be


involved in making these decisions. I think he's overlooking the fact


that we are already making progress. This isn't going to be one set of


negotiations on a specific date at some point in the future. It is on


going business, and we are making progress. Douglas Carswell, there


will be some saying it is your fault, those on the right who


pushed him to promise this referendum which now has not gone


far enough? I think Nigel Lawson's intervention sin credibly


significant, he understands economics, one of the most


successful Chancellors we have produced, and someone who advocated


to joining the ERM, the precursor to the euro now saying we should


get out. I think this strengthening the argument for what David Cameron


announced in January, which is to make sure that we have an in-out


referendum. Of course if Lord Lawson hadn't said it now, three


years too early? People say that the problem is that he's undermined


the idea that we can renegotiate. The beauty of an in-out referendum


is that Brussels is not just going to have to negotiate with the


Whitehall mandarins or David Cameron, they are negotiating with


the whole British people. And any deal that comes back is going to


have to persuade the constituents that elected me, that it is


worthwhile remaining insight. want that now, of course?


Personally speaking I would love us to bring forward the legislation


now for an in-out referendum. Before 2015? Absolutely. But part


of me actually thinks, no, we need a couple of years actually to make


the case for withdrawal. Is there any chance that could happen now?


think it is very unlikely. It would be unlikely any way to get a bill


through parliament. The numbers are stacked again that. I think that


the Prime Minister has committed to the very earliest point that he can


commit to knowing that parliamentary arithmetic. Which is


if a Conservative Government is elected we will have an in-out


referendum. He has become the Prime Minister who pushes things with a


vague promise of something happening finally and the


electorate is no longer trusting that? I don't think it was a vague


promise, I think it was a cast iron commitment to a referendum if the


Conservatives get elected at the 2015 election. Two years and too


many ifs, and they remember Lisbon? There won't be any point in


producing a referendum bill only set to failure. I wouldn't be


totally surprised that in the Queen's Speech we see proposals for


an in-out bill. What do you mean, do you know this is coming up?


at all, but if I was in Number Ten and I wanted to address the issue


of plausibilty I would be prepared to bring it through. Now if MPs


then voted to prevent that bill going through, we could see the


names of those MPs and the voters could make up their minds? What you


are saying is Ukip calls the tune now? We are in a democracy and the


voters want change. And the strategy then is for David Cameron


to look at Ukip's success and say we need to do what they are telling


us to do? Generally speaking in a democracy, when mainstream parties


are losing touch with the voters, the idea is you should recognise it


is not the fault of the voter, perhaps it is something that the


two-and-a-half party system is failing to ifrdl. Our fundamental


problem is...Is That right, you must start listeninging and follow


the Ukip lead? We never stopped listening. To Ukip, what they are


saying on Bulgaria and Romania at the end of the year? I don't think


it is Ukip we are listening to, it is the license rate, the people in


our constituencies, the people who contact us week in week out. Those


are the people we are listening to. It is clearly not otherwise they


wouldn't have left the Tories? commitment that the Prime Minister


made to an in-out referendum was made long before these local


election results. It was it was made more in response to the


Conservative Party and the public than it was in response it a


political party There was an important Maiduguri, as someone who


wants the UK out of Europe and wants an in-out referendum, I don't


think the key problem is policy s even if we delivered the policy


want would solve the problem, I don't think so. The reason so many


people vote Ukip is they don't like the two-and-a-half party system,


there is a lack of authenticity, there is a feeling that all


politicians are in it together. That we are perhaps a little bit


smug, out-of-touch. Think we know that Ukip are the insurgents, we


need a counter insurgency strategy. Does that mean risking losing the


centre ground? What it means first and foremost is we stop doing


politics as a Westminster party with a few local franchises. We


actually open up the party strategy so people own it a grassroots


strategy again. The Queen's Speech will also pave


the way for part two of HS2, releasing funding for the early


stages of the design of the high- speed rail link. Much has been made


of its potential for allowing economic developments to reach


parts of the country it doesn't normally reach. How much truth is


there to. That we have been off to find out.


There are many arguments made for high-speed rail, but the one the


politicians routinely reach for is this one? We do need to rebalance


the economy. It has been too dominated by the south and by


certain industries and I think high-speed rail will really help to


create a better balanced economy. It is their go-to argument whenever


the �34 billion price tag for HS2 is questioned. I think it will help


heal the north-south divide, which for so long as blighted the British


economy. You can see why the politics of high-speed rail is


attractive to the Government. And the economic case also seems to


have a certain plausibilty about it. If you half the journey times to


northern cities, well companies will be queuing up to relocate


their business away from the south. But is there any actual evidence


that this could or will happen? Is there any actual evidence that if


there is an economic dividend to be had from high-speed rail, it will


go to the north and not to the south. If we look at the evidence


from economic analysis and expowerence elsewhere around the


world, it is difficult to prove a link between building high-speed


rail lines and closing regional inequalities or disparities. Very


difficult indeed. In terms of there is evidence it seems to suggest


that capital cities gain the most from the building of these new


high-speed rail lines. There is no point me hanging around here


waiting for the first high-speed train to Manchester or Leeds. They


won't be departing until 20.33 at the very earliest. However high-


speed rail is not a new idea. There are plenty of cities in the world


that already have it, where the economic impacts are well


documented. This can probably claim to be the world's first high-speed


railway, the propeller-driven Zeppelin train that hit 145 miles


an hour in Germany. Perhaps we need a more modern example? Here in


Spain they have the future for 20 years lr. Back in 1992 the


Government built a high-speed rail line between Madrid and Seville,


the objective was clear, they wanted to spread the wealth, jobs


and opportunity away from the rich capital in the north to the


impoverished south. Reverse the geography and you have a very


familiar argument. What I want to find out is after 20 years of


having high-speed rail has any of this actually worked? I certainly


didn't meet anyone in Spain who wanted to go back to the days


before high-speed rail. Least of all the President of the Company


that runs the trains. Most of the people were quite critical with


first doping the line between Madrid and Seville rather than


between Madrid and Barcelona or other more popular places. But it


was really successful. Most of the people will come again by train


transportation. There has been a lot of development in Seville and


also in the surroundings of Madrid. So the balance of these first high-


speed trains in 1992 was really successful. The Spanish experience


is that the territory is very suitable for high-speed train. I


think that this is a case for the United Kingdom too.


The journey to Seville now takes two at a quarter hours, as opposed


to seven hours by train and ten by car before advent of high-speed


rail. That is undoubtedly a huge benefit to the people who already


had to make the trip. But, say economist, the Andalucia region


itself hasn't benefited nearly as much as you might expect.


problem with Seville and the south of Spain is that there is a lack of


other conditions like for example skills in people, attitudes,


diversification of the economy. So the high-speed train contributes


but a little. Nowadays to promote a region you need innovation, you


need education, you need good attitudes from people. Those things


in Seville and the south of Spain they are not promoted or developed.


Have many companies relocated their operation from Madrid to Seville?


don't think so. No. In Seville I have come to see a company that has


relocated and loves high-speed rail. Altmann sources and tests the


components that go into -- this company sources and tests the


component that is go into sat right. They relocated in 1992 from Madrid


to Seville. It has been a tremendous achievement in the sense


of time. It takes between two and a quarter and two-and-a-half hours to


get there are centre to centre. right next door to this high-tech


lab there is another story to tell. This was the site of the 1992


Seville expo. The high-speed rail line was part of the futuristic


package. When the expo closed the local Government offered very


generous incentives to companies like this to move in. It was this


and the other supsidies that tempted them to relocate, not just


the line. We moved mainly because for three reasons, the first one of


the support of the local Government and the City Council. They were


providing at that time to companies move. The second one of the


existence of a very good technical university in Seville. It is a good


source for a highly qualified and motivated professionals. Then the


last one that would have been excluded was the existence of good


connections with Madrid. Would you have moved without the availability


of this building at a very good rate? Possibly not. This is not


that far off what they had in Spain before high-speed rail. So the


savings in journey times were huge, far higher than promised for the UK,


which is already pretty well connected. That's why a Labour


Government review concluded that such a scheme wasn't worth the cost.


And if there are any benefits from reduced journey times for the UK,


economyists say they are likely to go to firms in London.


More productive firms in cities like London will be able to serve


distant markets in northern cities, much more efficiently from the


existing base rather than from bases located in the northern


cities. So if the time to market is reduced between London and the


northern cities, that is going to mainly benefit firms already based


in London. That seems to be what happens in most of the case around


the world where the railway lines are introduced. If you had a London


and Manchester office, and high- speed rail comes along, you might


be tempted to close the office because you can serve the


Manchester market from London? run the office down over time.


"their lawns our jobs" that was the slogan of those opposing the scheme,


nim bees standing in the way of regeneration in the north.


finding any clear evidence that is what would happen has been


difficult. Of course it would be amazing if building something like


this, spending �34 billion on a new rail line didn't some -- create


some jobs. But could the money be The * telegraph suggests that Sir


Alex Fergsuoned my be about to to call time on his career at


Manchester United. There will be more on that tomorrow. We learned


today that the animator Ray Harrison has died aged 92. We leave


Hello, after the UK's warmest day of the year so far, the weather is


now in a mood to change. And Wednesday brings a band of rain


spreading north, not going to northern Scotland until the evening


and behind it will brighten up in Northern Ireland and England and


Wales as we go through the afternoon. Bright spells but a much


fresher feel in Northern Ireland with the stronger breeze. Some rain


through the central belt at 4.00. The far north of Scotland with


warmth but with a strengthening wind, the rain getting in during


the evening. Across northern England behind the rain it will


brighten up, we also see heavy showers breaking out, particularly


through central and eastern parts of England through the mid-to-laid


afternoon maybe with a rumble of thunder. Bright spells to breezy


conditions, still warm high teens but not the 20s we saw today. The


fresher feel into south England and Wales. Plenty of dry weather to end


the day, maybe the odd passing shower in the brisk south-westerly


wind. It stays fairly unsettled as we go through the re- of the week.


For Wednesday most of us will see a -- the rest of the week, most of us


will see rain coming through during Thursday and the difference on


Thursday will be an even stronger wind. It looks as if southern


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. As three women are rescued after ten years captivity in a house in Ohio, Newsnight speaks to the family of one of the victims.

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