08/05/2013 Newsnight


08/05/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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pagentry aplenty, but are the couple at the heart of the

:00:18.:00:21.

coalition Government arguing over the kids?

:00:21.:00:23.

This programme has learned that This programme has learned that

:00:23.:00:27.

Nick Clegg may block reforms to childcare ratio, one of the

:00:27.:00:29.

flagship policies of the Queen's Speech.

:00:29.:00:32.

It was meant to be a done deal, but in the last hour the Deputy Prime

:00:32.:00:36.

Minister's office has confirmed to this programme that he may not sign

:00:36.:00:38.

it off. Also tonight as Manchester United

:00:38.:00:44.

says goodbye to the very best, we asks what makes a manager great.

:00:44.:00:48.

Most people at the top of business and sport are not the easiest

:00:48.:00:53.

people to get on with, because they are like that and used to battering

:00:53.:00:58.

doors out. We speak to Mark Hughes, his friends and the think-tank.

:00:59.:01:03.

We are on Pakistan's campaign trail. What you are seeing is a revolution.

:01:03.:01:07.

I am this is beyond, if you see the fashion, this is not normal

:01:08.:01:17.
:01:18.:01:18.

politics. This is an uprising from the grassroots.

:01:18.:01:23.

Hello, good evening. To the public looking on it was a fairly

:01:23.:01:27.

faultless parade of unity, but tonight this programme has learned

:01:27.:01:29.

that the Deputy Prime Minister is he at odds with the Prime Minister

:01:29.:01:34.

over one of the key policies laid out in the queens speech. Newsnight

:01:34.:01:37.

has learned that conversation reforms for affordable child

:01:38.:01:41.

cautious particularly the ratio of children to child minders has not

:01:41.:01:43.

been signed off by Nick Clegg. On the very day the measures were laid

:01:44.:01:47.

out by the Monarch in parliament, the Lib Dem leader has made it

:01:47.:01:52.

clear he remains to be persuaded this is the right thing to. Do Our

:01:52.:01:55.

political editor joins us. What have you learned? In the last

:01:55.:01:58.

few days Nick Clegg has told colleagues across Government that

:01:58.:02:01.

the Liberal Democrats won't, afterall, be supporting this ratios

:02:01.:02:04.

measure. It sounds incredibly technical, but I imagine quite a

:02:04.:02:07.

lot of viewers have heard about it. It is this move to get young

:02:07.:02:13.

children under the ages of one, two, three, being looked after across

:02:13.:02:17.

greater ratio. So one person would look after four, where as they had

:02:17.:02:20.

been looking after three. The reason why this is important is

:02:20.:02:24.

firstly what it means about how the coalition does its business, and

:02:24.:02:28.

secondly about the specifics of childcare which, remember, are so

:02:28.:02:31.

central to this Government, it isn't a niche issue, it has become

:02:31.:02:33.

about getting more women in work, it has become about living

:02:33.:02:39.

standards and the cost of living. Process wise this was a policy that

:02:39.:02:43.

was finished, it was done, it is due to come in September. It was

:02:43.:02:46.

not open for revisiting. That's what Nick Clegg has done by saying

:02:46.:02:50.

do you know what, I can't actually deal with this any more. In terms

:02:50.:02:53.

of what that means about other coalition policies, well some of my

:02:53.:02:58.

sources are saying this evening what's fair game for them, as

:02:58.:03:02.

Conservatives, to go around and start picking. In terms of

:03:02.:03:05.

childcare Newsnight has been to France with the minister that is

:03:05.:03:10.

responsible for this, we have seen them really try to grapple with

:03:10.:03:13.

whether this policy work. She truly believes that if you don't do this

:03:13.:03:16.

policy you don't bring down the cost of childcare. That is what

:03:16.:03:21.

they are trying to do. My sources say that if they don't do this the

:03:21.:03:25.

whole costing of the whole policy falls apart. Remember this is a key

:03:25.:03:27.

offer of both coalition partner, not just the Liberal Democrats or

:03:27.:03:37.

the Tories on their own. Year after year, the Queen has

:03:37.:03:41.

arrived for the State Opening of Parliament. But this morning

:03:41.:03:44.

something was different. Prince Charles came too for only the

:03:44.:03:49.

second time ever. So did his wife, the Duchess of Cornwall, for her

:03:49.:03:53.

first time. Today it gave us a sense of transitions to come. The

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contents of the Queen's Speech was also about the future. The collapse

:03:57.:04:02.

of the coalition's childcare policy, just bun premonition of some fights

:04:02.:04:11.

ahead. The 15 bills the Queen came to deliver today had few onate

:04:11.:04:20.

embellishments, but performed strict functions, there were many

:04:20.:04:28.

issues about immigration. And action to care for people in their

:04:28.:04:31.

elderly years Her Majesty could have been reading out two party

:04:31.:04:34.

manifestos. My ministers will continue to prioritise measures

:04:34.:04:38.

that reduce the deficit, ensuring interest rates are kept low for

:04:38.:04:43.

homeowners and businesses. Prince allowed himself the odd tap

:04:43.:04:47.

of the foot and the Queen moved at a perky pace too, her speech all

:04:47.:04:52.

wrapped up within eight minutes. For the kfrs it had a very serious

:04:52.:04:55.

purpose -- the Conservatives, it had a very serious purpose, to

:04:55.:04:59.

define their message or be smothered by Ukip. As MPs filed

:04:59.:05:05.

back from the Lords to the Commons, they might have reflected this

:05:05.:05:08.

Queen's Speech marked the transition from one parliament to

:05:09.:05:13.

the other, the beginning to the end. This year's is probably the last

:05:13.:05:15.

significant programme of legislation before the next general

:05:15.:05:18.

election. There will be another one, it is just that with 12 months to

:05:18.:05:21.

go before the country goes to the polls it is unlikely that the

:05:21.:05:25.

coalition will be able to agree on enough to make the next Queen's

:05:25.:05:29.

Speech a chunky one. One MP spoke for many Conservatives when he told

:05:29.:05:34.

us that he would have liked to have seen an EU referendum bill today.

:05:34.:05:42.

But he's confident the future will be different. I think this is the

:05:42.:05:46.

last rose garden Queen's Speech, moving to the jungle next year, it

:05:46.:05:51.

will be no holds barred next year. We have to put forward, as a

:05:51.:05:54.

Conservative Party a very attractive compelling narrative by

:05:54.:05:58.

way of the Queen's Speech, which allows the voters to distinguish

:05:58.:06:01.

between us and the Liberal Democrats. I think we will see that.

:06:01.:06:05.

The people around David Cameron are very mindful that must be the

:06:05.:06:09.

number one priority, to have an authentic Conservative message next

:06:09.:06:16.

year. One of his Lib Dem partners was more sanguine, Tim Farron

:06:16.:06:19.

thinks disagreements are manageable. We disagree on issues of fairness.

:06:19.:06:23.

You will see that long before next year's Queen's Speech, which will

:06:23.:06:26.

be on issues of taxation. I'm sure George Osborne will want more tax

:06:26.:06:30.

cuts for the gaelty and Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems calling for more

:06:31.:06:35.

tax cuts for the poorer people and those on middle incomes. That will

:06:35.:06:39.

be our priority and continue to be a fight, but a good-natureed one.

:06:39.:06:42.

Despite all the appearences of the Queen's Speech and the debate

:06:42.:06:46.

afterwards that the Tories are leaning in to tackle the UKIP

:06:46.:06:50.

threat, actually, many Conservatives still harbour some

:06:50.:06:53.

hopes of winning over centrist voters. But there are some who will

:06:53.:06:57.

think they won't be able to win over both types. Ed Miliband knows

:06:57.:07:01.

this, that is why he teased the Prime Minister today.

:07:01.:07:05.

honourable member for mid-Somerset, he goes even further, he is nodding,

:07:05.:07:10.

he wants a coalition right now with UKIP. Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker, they

:07:10.:07:14.

used to call them clowns, now they want to join the circus! The Prime

:07:14.:07:18.

Minister was clear about his plans, and he challenged Ed Miliband.

:07:18.:07:21.

the deficit they would increase it, on competitiveness they would put

:07:21.:07:26.

up taxes not cut them, on welfare reform they have opposed every step

:07:26.:07:30.

we have taken to make our system fair and affordable. These are the

:07:30.:07:32.

argument that is will dominate this Queen's Speech this session and the

:07:32.:07:36.

general election. But the Labour leader made sure UKIP was front and

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centre in the debate. As someone once said, he's in office but not

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in power. Because what is their party spending their time talking

:07:45.:07:49.

about, not youth unemployment, not the NHS, not the living standards

:07:49.:07:53.

crisis but the one subject, they are obsessing about day in day out

:07:53.:07:59.

is Europe and UKIP. Today that red carpet is served for two

:07:59.:08:02.

generations of royals, a Queen and her son. If the fate of the

:08:02.:08:05.

childcare policy is anything to go by, the other transsignificant, as

:08:05.:08:10.

we enter the beginning of the end of the coalition Government, won't

:08:10.:08:14.

get tide up so neatly. Let's discuss this now with the

:08:14.:08:24.

Conservative Party chairman. Let's catch up with what we have heard

:08:24.:08:28.

from Nick Clegg's office in the last hour or two, what will you do

:08:28.:08:31.

if he doesn't support this? whole thrust of the Queen's Speech

:08:31.:08:35.

is helping hard working families who want to get on in life, that

:08:35.:08:38.

includes families who happen to have children. There are a couple

:08:38.:08:43.

of parts to the proposal, one is to make sure people can have a tax

:08:43.:08:46.

break on their child cautious up to 20% of the costs there. The other

:08:46.:08:49.

is this element you were just talking about earlier which is at

:08:49.:08:55.

the moment in this country, unlike say in France or Germany, the ratio

:08:55.:08:58.

of carers, in other words, nursery teachers or child minders that you

:08:59.:09:02.

need to have to children is much lower, or higher, depending on how

:09:02.:09:05.

you look at it. For example you need to, at the moment, if the

:09:05.:09:09.

child is under two, and it is in nursery, there is one child, there

:09:09.:09:12.

is one person looking after them for every three. We want to move

:09:13.:09:16.

that to to one to every four. It is a bit more complicated than that,

:09:16.:09:21.

because there are different levels for nursery teachers and child

:09:21.:09:24.

minders. I think our viewers are familiar with this because it is a

:09:24.:09:27.

story we have covered a few times. The line from the Deputy Prime

:09:27.:09:30.

Minister's office is he has looked very closely at the proposals to

:09:30.:09:36.

increase the number of children each adult has look after, he has

:09:36.:09:40.

serious concerns, raised by parents and childcare providers and he

:09:40.:09:44.

remains to be persuaded it is the right thing to. Do he is not

:09:44.:09:47.

convinced we thought was something signed off by the Queen today?

:09:47.:09:50.

me explain the process. The reason I go into some detail about the

:09:50.:09:53.

number of children for the different levels is there has been

:09:53.:09:57.

a consultation, which has gone out with the full authority of the

:09:57.:09:59.

Government and both sides of the coalition, and has asked these

:09:59.:10:02.

questions about what the levels should be for children of different

:10:02.:10:05.

ages and under different types of childcare. You have had a petition

:10:05.:10:08.

of 11,000 people saying they disagree with the proposal that is

:10:08.:10:11.

are going through on this issue? The whole point of a consultation

:10:11.:10:15.

is get people's views. And you have 11,000 protesting, so the Prime

:10:15.:10:19.

Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister is not alone in this, he is now

:10:19.:10:23.

saying he won't sign off something which is absolutely integral to

:10:23.:10:27.

your childcare reforms? What we think and the Conservative side of

:10:27.:10:29.

this coalition believe that parents who want to go out, working hard,

:10:29.:10:33.

want to get on in life should be able to look after their children,

:10:33.:10:36.

or have them looked after if they want to go back to work and for

:10:36.:10:40.

that to be affordable N this country it is not. A lot of people

:10:40.:10:44.

will be sympathetic with the plans. I just want to step in, this isn't

:10:44.:10:47.

about the policy itself, this is about whether the two leaders at

:10:47.:10:52.

the top of the coalition have agreed to something that everyone

:10:52.:10:55.

saw the Queen sign off today F it is not signed off and there is

:10:55.:10:58.

horse trading, what does that mean for the rest of the stuff? There

:10:58.:11:02.

are one or two lines in the Queen's Speech which talked about what we

:11:02.:11:05.

absolutely will do, which is the hard working families out there, we

:11:05.:11:08.

will make sure that childcare in this country becomes affordable

:11:08.:11:12.

again. By the way to answer the question by people who have

:11:12.:11:14.

petitioned and what have you, you want the quality of that childcare

:11:14.:11:18.

to be higher, you want to have the higher level of qualification,

:11:18.:11:20.

which isn't always used at the moment. Whether that's a

:11:21.:11:26.

childminder or in a nursery, so higher quality, I think more

:11:26.:11:33.

practical versions of this. Who seriously thinks a child under one

:11:33.:11:37.

a childminder can only look after one, who thinks that really? Do you

:11:37.:11:41.

think this is a done deal, signed off, in the books by September,

:11:41.:11:45.

which is what we have all been led to believe? I think there will be a

:11:45.:11:48.

package and that will include a tax break. And these other issues?

:11:48.:11:53.

Which will be up to �6,000 for families T will also include

:11:53.:11:57.

changing these ratios, the important thing is it is out for

:11:57.:12:00.

consultation. If Nick Clegg will agree? Everything has two stages,

:12:00.:12:04.

it goes to consultation with Government agreement. Isn't

:12:04.:12:07.

consultation usually before it has been announced? Let me explain, it

:12:07.:12:10.

goes to consultation, that has to have Government agreement. Then it

:12:10.:12:13.

has to be implemented and you look through the consultation, you

:12:13.:12:16.

decide what you will agree on, that is the bit you are now having this

:12:16.:12:19.

discussion about. It is just that last bit of T as we have done with

:12:19.:12:23.

so many other issues, many as big or bigger as a coalition, we will

:12:23.:12:28.

get to the bottom of this and put plans in place that are on the side

:12:28.:12:32.

of hard-working families. Immigration, you have put that at

:12:32.:12:36.

the centre of much of what was talked about today, landlords to

:12:36.:12:40.

check on tenants, doctors to check on migrant status, and businesses

:12:40.:12:45.

that have to crackdown on whether they use illegal labour, this is

:12:45.:12:49.

outsourcing isn't it? I was Housing Minister and it is absolutely right

:12:49.:12:54.

that when somebody rents out a property they should know whether

:12:54.:12:58.

that person is supposed to be here in the first place, it is not an

:12:58.:13:01.

unreasonable thing to ask of somebody renting. When you consider

:13:01.:13:04.

at the moment a local council doesn't even ask that question

:13:04.:13:08.

before shelling out housing benefit, thousands of pounds potentially,

:13:08.:13:11.

that can't possibly be right. A lot of the time the landlord in

:13:11.:13:14.

question here will actually be the state, the Government, the local

:13:14.:13:17.

authority, I think it is absolutely right to have them ask precise low

:13:17.:13:21.

that question. There is no register in this country, in England, there

:13:21.:13:24.

is no register, there is nothing that compels landlords to do this.

:13:24.:13:28.

There is nothing that will check up on whether they have. What is the

:13:28.:13:32.

incentive and what is the punishment? There are all sorts of

:13:32.:13:42.
:13:42.:13:44.

laws in which there is no specific check against the law and there are

:13:44.:13:49.

fines. You will fine? Absolutely. And check up on landlords? There

:13:49.:13:53.

are he can chs in the system. There are all sorts of things that people

:13:53.:13:57.

know there are things against the law. The landlord may be the local

:13:57.:14:00.

authority in many of the cases, it may be a private landlord. We

:14:00.:14:04.

expect private landlords to keep all kind of laws to do with health

:14:04.:14:09.

and safety, this is no different. Doctors to check on migrants'

:14:09.:14:13.

status, now it is the GPs that are a new Border Agency? I don't think

:14:13.:14:17.

there is anything particularly shocking or surprising your viewers

:14:17.:14:21.

will find unusual about the concept, before somebody accesses what can

:14:21.:14:25.

be very expensive services in this country, like the NHS, that there

:14:25.:14:27.

ought to be a reasonable check as to whether somebody has actually

:14:27.:14:31.

paid into the system and indeed should even be in this country in

:14:31.:14:36.

the first place. Are they legally here? It is a perfectly reasonable

:14:36.:14:41.

thing. Most people watching this will ask why has that not been done

:14:41.:14:51.
:14:51.:14:52.

a long time ago. Ed Miliband called this a speech to "out-Farrage

:14:52.:14:55.

Farrage"? It is up to Ed Miliband to come up with policies all of

:14:55.:15:00.

which we have yet to see at this stage. The Queen's Speech indicates

:15:00.:15:03.

15 pieces of legislation that we are hard at work to help people in

:15:03.:15:07.

this country who want to work hard and get on with life. It doesn't

:15:07.:15:10.

matter if it is the Immigration Bill stopping people accessing

:15:10.:15:13.

services, or long-term care that means you don't have to sell your

:15:13.:15:18.

home any more, or the fact that you will get a decent single-tier

:15:18.:15:22.

pension from 2016. All those things are in the Queen's Speech, and we

:15:22.:15:27.

are on the side of people who want to work hard and get on in life.

:15:27.:15:30.

Coming up: This is an uprising from the

:15:30.:15:39.

grassroots. We take to the skies with Pakistan's election candidates.

:15:39.:15:42.

Despite the pomp at Westminster it was footballing royalty that

:15:42.:15:47.

arguably stole the show today. The man who promised to knock Liverpool

:15:47.:15:55.

off their "f-ing perch" amongst other things retired today. Alex

:15:55.:16:00.

Fergsuon leaves Manchester United, a club worth many millions with 38

:16:00.:16:03.

trophies under his belt. His approach was more despot than

:16:03.:16:08.

democrat, but it worked. The BBC understands that David Moyes will

:16:08.:16:13.

be announced as the new manager tomorrow. We look at what made Sir

:16:13.:16:23.
:16:23.:16:24.

Alex the best. Manchester United have won the

:16:24.:16:29.

European Cup, it is astonishing. He stabbed it with his right foot and

:16:29.:16:33.

Manchester United rule Europe. is an achievement that symbolises

:16:33.:16:38.

almost everything that Sir Alex Fergsuon has come to represent. On

:16:38.:16:44.

May 26th 1999, Manchester United defeated Bayern Munich with a last-

:16:44.:16:50.

minute strike to win an unprecedented treble. It spoke of

:16:50.:16:54.

resilience, tenacity and unwaviering commitment to success.

:16:54.:16:59.

As Fergsuon himself put it, "we never give up, the time to give up

:16:59.:17:03.

is when you are dead". Fergsuon is a deeply polarising figure, there

:17:03.:17:08.

is no doubt he's a collosus of the modern sporting world. His

:17:08.:17:12.

retirement leaves a void, not just in the world's biggest club, but in

:17:12.:17:16.

one of the nation's most important cultural institutions, football.

:17:16.:17:20.

How did he achieve so much? How did he take a club and sport

:17:20.:17:27.

languishing in the 1980s and set in train what can only be described as

:17:27.:17:34.

a revolution. It all started in Govern. Fergsuon grew up in ten

:17:35.:17:39.

meant building in the industrial heartland of Glasgow. It was there

:17:39.:17:44.

he learned the things that would dominate his managerial style. The

:17:44.:17:48.

importance of community, discipline and solidarity. That heavy

:17:48.:17:57.

industrial heritage that is where it all comes from. You would have

:17:57.:18:01.

to have grown up in the communities to know why. Loyalties certainly

:18:01.:18:08.

come into it, "loyalty" is a word Fergsuon always uses, next to

:18:08.:18:13.

"power", it was probably one of his favourites. And Fergsuon's loyalty

:18:13.:18:18.

is that loyalty is people being faithful to him! Fergsuon was

:18:18.:18:23.

interested not merely in building a team but in creating a dynasty.

:18:23.:18:29.

Like Sir Matt Busby before him. He made a conscious attempt to have a

:18:29.:18:36.

mythology around United. The Busby Babes after the Munich plane

:18:36.:18:41.

disaster. He was not interested in players playing merely for the pay

:18:41.:18:46.

check, he wanted them -- pay cheque, he wanted them to buy into

:18:46.:18:53.

something more visceral. Under him the team became a family a tribe.

:18:53.:18:56.

No retrospective can ignore Ferguson's darker side. I don't

:18:56.:18:59.

know what you are name is I'm not interested in what you have to say.

:18:59.:19:04.

He was controlling and at times manipulative. He banned journalists

:19:04.:19:08.

who wrote negative stories, even when they were true. He boycotted

:19:08.:19:12.

media organisations, including the BBC. At times Old Trafford seemed

:19:12.:19:17.

like a personal fiefdom. expressed himself through the

:19:17.:19:22.

questioning of other people's motives. Not just referees, we know

:19:22.:19:30.

about that, working on referees. But working on the mixture

:19:30.:19:32.

compilers for conspiring against Manchester United, against the

:19:32.:19:36.

television companies for their scheduling, against the Premier

:19:36.:19:38.

League for mitigating since Manchester United's Champions

:19:38.:19:43.

League chances by the dates of matches. All this as decribing of

:19:43.:19:51.

bad faith to -- ascribing of bad faith was something that didn't

:19:51.:19:55.

happen in the past. Managers previous were sportsmanlike in

:19:55.:19:59.

public, they might not like it in private, but they were in public,

:19:59.:20:06.

Ferguson has changed all that. Clive Woodward, one of sport's most

:20:06.:20:10.

influential leaders argues that these defects could be great

:20:10.:20:14.

strengths. Most people at the top of business and sport are not the

:20:14.:20:17.

easiest to get on with, they are like that and used to battering

:20:17.:20:22.

doors down. That is what you want. At a dangerous time you put in the

:20:22.:20:25.

popular person or somebody to get on with everybody, that doesn't

:20:25.:20:28.

always produce a winning team in my experience. You want someone out

:20:28.:20:32.

there an out-and-out leader and figurehead who knows everyone will

:20:32.:20:36.

follow him. He's that person. I think Alex Ferguson would have been

:20:36.:20:40.

successful whatever he did. It is one of the great ironies of

:20:40.:20:44.

Ferguson's tenure that this avowed socialist presided over the

:20:44.:20:49.

transformation of the club into a bastion of global capitalism. The

:20:49.:20:53.

club was purchased by family of American entrepeneurs and loaded

:20:53.:21:00.

down with leveraged debt. It caused a breakaway amongst hardcore fans.

:21:00.:21:05.

It was only the success of the manager that held the club together.

:21:05.:21:08.

Ferguson's success at United has coincided with a boom in one of

:21:08.:21:13.

Britain's most successful exports. Whilst the Premier League is big it

:21:13.:21:21.

is only as big as its aggregate stellar clubs, there is no club

:21:21.:21:23.

bigger on a worldwide basis than Manchester United. There is no

:21:23.:21:27.

single character, whether it be a player or whoever who has been

:21:27.:21:31.

involved in Manchester United that comes bigger than Sir Alex. So in a

:21:31.:21:37.

sense, if you look at me as the "chief salesman" of the Premier

:21:37.:21:39.

League, I have been out there selling, do you want a watch, do

:21:39.:21:43.

you want this or that. But the biggest product I have had to sell

:21:43.:21:46.

is the fact that when they buy the Premier League they buy Manchester

:21:46.:21:53.

United, and when they buy Manchester United they buy Sir Alex

:21:53.:22:00.

Ferguson. Before Ferguson's tenure football was almost a different

:22:00.:22:05.

sport. The creation of the Premier League in 1992 was a watershed that

:22:05.:22:15.
:22:15.:22:16.

coincided with the beginning of Ferguson's dominance. 85-86 there

:22:16.:22:20.

was no television deal, no Match of the Day. The BBC didn't want to

:22:20.:22:22.

show highlights. We had no television deal at all. There was

:22:22.:22:25.

no football on television, you couldn't give it way. Then we had

:22:25.:22:31.

the tragedies of Bradford and Hillsborough, and then we had all

:22:31.:22:36.

the fall-out from that. Don't underestimate how big a part that

:22:36.:22:40.

played really in the resurgence. Because, again, the fact that the

:22:40.:22:45.

Premier League was even able to break-away. It wouldn't, and

:22:45.:22:49.

couldn't happen today. It was at a time when nobody was interested.

:22:49.:22:53.

is not just the fans who have been spooked. United's value plummeted

:22:53.:22:59.

today by �80 million on the opening of the New York Stock Exchange.

:23:00.:23:06.

David Moyes, a fellow Glaswegian, is expected to be announced as

:23:06.:23:10.

Ferguson's successor. He will take over from one of the most xelgs

:23:10.:23:14.

compelling and complex figures in British sports. Mark Hughes was one

:23:14.:23:19.

of his early signings, he went on to play for Manchester United and

:23:19.:23:24.

managed Fulham and Queens Park Rangers. I asked him what set Sir

:23:24.:23:29.

Alex apart? It is his retire and will to win. That is what he

:23:29.:23:33.

imparts on players. I was very fortunate to play for five or six

:23:33.:23:37.

years under him. His determination to succeed as a manager and

:23:37.:23:41.

determination to make you better as player was there every single day

:23:41.:23:44.

that I was there and certainly that's continued for the whole of

:23:44.:23:50.

the 26 years I'm sure. When I first went there United weren't in a

:23:50.:23:55.

great situation in terms of the quality of the team. But obviously

:23:55.:23:59.

as time has passed he has addresseded that very, very quickly

:23:59.:24:04.

and has had addressed that very, very quickly and had success that

:24:04.:24:09.

won't be emulated again in my view. When you say that desire to succeed,

:24:09.:24:19.
:24:19.:24:19.

was he terrifying as a manager? Absolutely, yeah. When he first

:24:19.:24:23.

came down from Scotland he found things that were completely at odds

:24:23.:24:26.

than he would find, he knew he had to address them and stamp his

:24:26.:24:31.

authority. He did that very, very quickly. But all accounts he has

:24:31.:24:35.

mellowed, I'm not sure he has. He has had to manage in a different

:24:35.:24:40.

way. It is a different era. The dressing rooms are different to

:24:40.:24:44.

when he first came down from Scotland. The dressing room was

:24:44.:24:47.

dominantly British and now it is a lot more diverse. He has had to

:24:47.:24:51.

change I'm sure. That is one of his great strengths he has never stood

:24:51.:24:55.

still. A lot of managers have gone out the game because they have

:24:55.:25:00.

thought that what they did 20 years ago would stand them in good stead,

:25:00.:25:04.

but he has always embraced new things. What if you disagreed with

:25:04.:25:07.

him, was there room for disagreement in the skad? Sfrpblgt

:25:07.:25:13.

you could disagree, but in some -- You could disagree, but in no

:25:13.:25:18.

uncertain terms he would tell you you were wrong. You could have a

:25:18.:25:22.

voice, I was present on a number of occasions when players went head-

:25:22.:25:27.

to-head with him. You always knew he was the boss and fundamentally

:25:27.:25:30.

you always knew what he said was right. You had the utmost respect

:25:30.:25:33.

for him, at times you didn't particularly like him because of

:25:33.:25:36.

the way he was. He made you a better player and that is why you

:25:36.:25:41.

had great respect for him. When you were managing Manchester City,

:25:41.:25:46.

could you have gone to him at that point for advice? I'm not sure

:25:46.:25:50.

about that. Possibly. In fairness to him he was always very open and

:25:51.:25:54.

always has been ever since he has been a manager. And since I have

:25:54.:25:58.

been a manager he is always there for you. He's very good with young

:25:58.:26:02.

managers. He's very good with ex- players trying to find a way in

:26:02.:26:06.

this crazy world of football. You knew that if you were in a real

:26:06.:26:10.

tight spot that he would help you. I don't think he possibly would

:26:10.:26:14.

have been as forth coming when it was Manchester City manager, but

:26:14.:26:17.

certainly you knew that there was a pool of knowledge that you could

:26:17.:26:24.

tap into any time I'm sure. We hear those quotes that he wanted to

:26:24.:26:29.

"knock Liverpool off its f-ing perch", his feelings towards

:26:29.:26:32.

Manchester City were similar to the end. Do you think he was driven by

:26:32.:26:37.

the desire, not just to win, but to really see the others put down?

:26:37.:26:40.

think he just had a real desire to see Manchester United top of the

:26:40.:26:46.

pile. When he came down from Scotland the team itself was

:26:46.:26:49.

underperforming, it was a mid-table First Division side. Quickly

:26:49.:26:54.

addressed that and made them the superpower that they are now. It is

:26:54.:26:59.

all down to him. Down to his desire, his determination to take United

:26:59.:27:09.
:27:09.:27:09.

where he felt they rightly should be. Only a man of his stature was

:27:09.:27:19.
:27:19.:27:19.

able to do it. We know that David Moyes going to be put into the job

:27:19.:27:24.

is that the right choice? Congrat layings to him and he's an

:27:24.:27:27.

outstanding manager. He has -- congratulations to him he's an

:27:27.:27:31.

outstanding manager and he has shown that in his longevity in the

:27:31.:27:36.

job. He will be viewed as a manager who can come in and stead Yeo the

:27:36.:27:40.

ship and make sure things -- steady the ship and make sure things

:27:40.:27:50.
:27:50.:27:54.

continue in the same vain. Joining me -- vein. Joining me now is Danny

:27:54.:28:02.

Finkelstein, and Alastair dam bell and my guest from America. Did the

:28:02.:28:05.

think-tank see this? I'm a great sceptic about managers, I think

:28:05.:28:09.

most of the time they make no difference, but there are a few who

:28:09.:28:13.

are an exception and he was. You can plot the wages against points.

:28:13.:28:16.

You can see whether someone just basically spends the money and gets

:28:16.:28:22.

back what you would expect. That is what Roberto Mancini this season

:28:22.:28:27.

has done. But Alex Ferguson season after season is outperforming the

:28:27.:28:33.

money. He's an above-the-curve manager. He was our Manager of the

:28:33.:28:39.

Season this year. When he look over in 1986 that was the trajectory he

:28:39.:28:42.

wanted, where did the tipping point come? We have only been doing

:28:42.:28:47.

statistics for ten years, he clearly had a run-in period. What

:28:47.:28:50.

is also apparent is Manchester United as an organisation stuck

:28:50.:28:54.

with him. Lots of organisations, it has happened to Brian McDermott,

:28:55.:29:03.

Manager of the Month one month and sacked the next. Articlely Acelotti,

:29:03.:29:08.

in April and March Manager of the Month and sacked in May by Chelsea.

:29:08.:29:12.

But Alex was allowed to lose two back-to-back titles to Chelsea and

:29:12.:29:18.

they didn't make him retire. As an organisation they understood that

:29:18.:29:23.

results compared to the mean, that statistics bounce about but he was

:29:23.:29:27.

the right manager. Does statistics show that lesson that you stick

:29:27.:29:31.

with the guy who is failing because consistency is more important than

:29:31.:29:35.

change? I think consistency is very, very important. I think the fact

:29:35.:29:41.

that Alex Ferguson has been manager of the club for 26 years

:29:41.:29:44.

consistently, as you have just pointed out, he had a sticky first

:29:44.:29:50.

five years. I think they lost 5-1 to Manchester City in the first few

:29:50.:29:54.

years, there were calls for his head. The manager of the club stuck

:29:54.:30:03.

with him.S had an interesting change, I felt very sad, like Peter

:30:03.:30:08.

Schmikel that Alex was retiring. You have David Gill from the club

:30:08.:30:12.

as CEO and the manager going at the same time. Or a similar time, it is

:30:12.:30:16.

interesting that they moved so quickly on David Moyes. I had to

:30:16.:30:19.

correct one thing, the fall in the share price was not as substantial

:30:19.:30:25.

as the report suggested. By the close it was down about 2%, about

:30:25.:30:29.

$60 million. Given the significance of the change I think the club has

:30:29.:30:34.

handled it very well. Certainly in the early days. I think David Moyes

:30:34.:30:39.

has to be given time, that is the critical issue, coming back to the

:30:39.:30:43.

point about consistency. That David Moyes will have his ups and downs,

:30:43.:30:49.

and it is very important that the board give him time to make his

:30:49.:30:54.

mark as they gave Alex Ferguson the time he needed from 1986. It looks

:30:54.:31:02.

like we have decided's in the job as of tomorrow? Apart from Sam

:31:02.:31:06.

Allerdyce he's the only one above the line, he achieves more points

:31:06.:31:12.

than the money. His resignation, might have pre-empted his decision

:31:12.:31:16.

by a few days, but he was one of the few people in those jobs who

:31:16.:31:20.

could decide when he went, rather than the other way around? It was

:31:20.:31:23.

important to him that he did that. As he has been successful over time

:31:23.:31:27.

he has become more powerful within the club and within the game. Mark

:31:27.:31:31.

Hughes is not the only manager to talk in those terms about Alex

:31:31.:31:36.

Ferguson, because he has people all over football. He was pretty much

:31:36.:31:40.

unsackable, but I think he wanted to go when he was strong, when he

:31:40.:31:45.

just won another title. The handing over to David Moyes is part of a

:31:45.:31:50.

transition. Because he picked him? He is clearly involved in that. He

:31:50.:31:53.

wants the club to be in good shape. He wants somebody to come in and

:31:53.:31:58.

build on what he has done. He won't be a back seat driver, he will

:31:58.:32:00.

definitely be involved, an ambassador and director for the

:32:00.:32:04.

club. He is a legend. The word "legend" is overused in football.

:32:04.:32:08.

He is a legend. He's a great believer in history, and the power

:32:08.:32:12.

of history for the here and now. Manchester United is now an even

:32:12.:32:16.

bigger club as a result of what he has done today. Because it is the

:32:16.:32:20.

latest chapter in the legend. bored "brand" is often overused,

:32:20.:32:24.

but this story has been leading bulletins right across Africa, Asia,

:32:24.:32:29.

China and the rest of it? Absolutely incredible. If you

:32:29.:32:33.

follow the Twitter pattern more tweets than when Margaret Thatcher

:32:34.:32:38.

died a week or so ago. It is quite extraordinary the focus on it.

:32:38.:32:43.

Manchester United is the biggest brand in world football. We track

:32:43.:32:46.

1.6 million global fans around the world. Almost half of those around

:32:47.:32:51.

the world, mainly in the fast- growing market, the called emerging

:32:51.:32:54.

markets, follow Manchester United with a passion. With the same

:32:54.:32:59.

passion that Alex Ferguson had as manager. I think that's what marks

:32:59.:33:02.

him out. He is almost entre pent neural in his zeal for Manchester

:33:02.:33:12.
:33:12.:33:14.

United and the brand. I think the - - there is nothing wrong with want

:33:14.:33:19.

to go win. If that does annoy others and get into trouble with

:33:19.:33:24.

the BBC that is it. Alex Ferguson would often win titles when

:33:24.:33:28.

Manchester United were not the best team. This season bizarrely enough

:33:28.:33:31.

Manchester City beat Manchester United and they were favourites,

:33:31.:33:35.

the think-tank made them favourites in that game. I want to pick up on

:33:35.:33:42.

what was said, the entrepeneural spirit, the art socialist who

:33:42.:33:47.

seemed to despise money and sit atop this �3 billion empire?

:33:47.:33:51.

didn't despise money, one of the reasons he remained a Labour

:33:51.:33:54.

supporter and very committed to new Labour was the fact that in a sense

:33:54.:33:59.

what Tony Blair certainly did was success was not a dirty word. Also

:33:59.:34:03.

it was perfectly possible to be wealthy as Alex Ferguson is, but

:34:04.:34:07.

also to have the same socialist values with which he grew up. One

:34:07.:34:11.

of the reasons he was a successful manager for Manchester United is he

:34:11.:34:14.

brought those values into the club. That is another reason to go for

:34:14.:34:19.

David Moyes because he has done something very similar at Everton.

:34:19.:34:22.

Anyone who has seen Alex Ferguson operating around the ground and the

:34:22.:34:26.

club, he knows everybody and their kids' names. I'm not saying non-

:34:26.:34:29.

socialists don't, but that sense of the club being the product of

:34:29.:34:33.

people, including the fans around the world that you talked about,

:34:33.:34:39.

that is mean ago lot to him and that is why he has built such a big

:34:39.:34:46.

institution. You know him better I only know him out of the newspapers.

:34:46.:34:49.

He's an intelligent person with strong values. A lot of people

:34:49.:34:53.

think that doesn't in sport, it clearly does, just to receive

:34:53.:34:56.

better results, it matters on the pitch that a lot of the footballers

:34:57.:35:00.

aren't that educated but they are very clever. To have to be in order

:35:01.:35:08.

to do things like calculate the angle required for Van Persie to

:35:08.:35:14.

score an amazing goal. When Matthew was talking about the revolution, a

:35:14.:35:18.

footballing revolution was put down in no small part to Alex Ferguson?

:35:18.:35:23.

He has only played a role in it, satellite television played a role

:35:23.:35:27.

in it. Which one is bigger, Murdoch or Ferguson? Football went through

:35:27.:35:32.

a very bad patch. There is Thatcher was not the best Prime Minister for

:35:32.:35:35.

football. The Premier League did turn it into something different.

:35:35.:35:39.

Match that to television. Match that to some of the big names in

:35:39.:35:43.

the game. Let's not forget, we are talking about Alex for various

:35:43.:35:46.

reasons, but the players are hugely important in that. What he was

:35:46.:35:50.

always brilliant at was spotting the talent and turning that talent.

:35:50.:35:54.

He was great at taking good players and turning them into something

:35:54.:35:58.

very special. Do you think that Manchester United is at the peak of

:35:58.:36:05.

its brand position right now. Is the only way down from here? It is

:36:05.:36:09.

worth $3 billion on the exchange. Arsenal is worth about half of that,

:36:09.:36:17.

$1.5, you look at the Green Bay Packers, they are valued at $1

:36:17.:36:22.

million. Real Madrid were ranked by Forbes slightly higher in terms of

:36:22.:36:26.

revenue, Manchester United doesn't have a quote to compare it to. In

:36:26.:36:28.

terms of brand value Manchester United certainly extremely strong.

:36:28.:36:33.

It will be a testing time for Manchester United without Alex

:36:33.:36:39.

faring fare -- Ferguson, without David Gill, strong shirt

:36:39.:36:46.

sponsorship and ground sponsorship that has been built. It will be a

:36:46.:36:49.

testing time and this is a transition period. There is no

:36:49.:36:51.

reason why Manchester United shouldn't go on to be one of the

:36:51.:36:54.

most powerful, if not the most powerful brands, not just in

:36:54.:36:58.

football, not just in soccer, but across the whole sports world.

:36:58.:37:03.

Thank you all very much. Thanks. Pakistan's heading to the polls,

:37:03.:37:06.

for the first time in the 63 history one democratically elected

:37:06.:37:09.

Government will be replaced by another. That hasn't stopped it

:37:09.:37:13.

being the bloodiest election ever. Scores of people have died in

:37:13.:37:16.

attacks by the Taliban, targeting political parties and candidates.

:37:16.:37:19.

It has become a battle between democratic and non-democratic

:37:20.:37:23.

forces that will shape the future direction of the country. We have

:37:23.:37:28.

been out on the campaign trail with the leading candidates.

:37:28.:37:33.

With The crowds have gathered here at this hospital in Lahore, where

:37:33.:37:37.

doctors are keeping Imran Khan under close observation. Last night

:37:37.:37:43.

he tumbled from a fork lift at an electoraly in the city. He has had

:37:43.:37:47.

15 stitches and sustained three spinal fractures. The doctors say

:37:47.:37:50.

he will make a full recovery, he just needs to rest. That is hard,

:37:50.:37:55.

these are the final showers of the most close low- fought, the most

:37:55.:37:59.

unpredictable election that Pakistan has ever seen. The big

:37:59.:38:03.

question now is will Imran Khan's fall cause him to rise in the polls.

:38:03.:38:08.

There will be a sympathy vote. That is certainly on the minds of his

:38:08.:38:13.

rivals. His chief challenger, Nawaz Sharif, cancelled his rallies today

:38:13.:38:17.

in solidarity. It was also a shrewd political move. In the last month

:38:17.:38:21.

these two men have campaigned the hardest. That's partly because

:38:21.:38:26.

their parties are not on a Taliban hitlist. There have been almost

:38:26.:38:30.

daily attacks on other candidates. Even so Imran Khan and Nawaz Sharif

:38:30.:38:38.

are the front-runners this time. We have been following both of them.

:38:38.:38:43.

In Pakistan election campaigns have always had a carnival atmosphere.

:38:43.:38:48.

Even here in the North West which has seen some of the worst of

:38:48.:38:51.

Taliban attacks. But this time only certain politicians have been able

:38:52.:38:58.

to hold rallies in relative safety. Imran Khan is one of them. He's

:38:58.:39:04.

drawing huge crowds. REPORTER: How is the campaign going? We are

:39:05.:39:10.

winning. His critics say he has been able to hold rallies here

:39:10.:39:14.

because he has been soft on the Taliban. REPORTER: They say you are

:39:14.:39:17.

not willing to fight the Taliban who are causing the war here?

:39:17.:39:20.

have been fighting them for nine years and it has got worse. There

:39:20.:39:24.

is more radicalisation, there is more extremism, there is more

:39:24.:39:30.

terrorism today than nine years back. Clearly what we are trying to

:39:30.:39:35.

do to cure this illness is increasing the cancer, it is

:39:35.:39:39.

spreading. You need to change strategy. The former cricket

:39:39.:39:44.

captain, well known in the west as a charismatic playboy still limbers

:39:44.:39:52.

up for a fight. But he leads a different team now, with a very

:39:52.:40:01.

different message. All the bloodshed here is America's fault

:40:01.:40:06.

he tells these crowds. He vows to shoot down US drones operating

:40:06.:40:09.

along the Afghan border and promises to establish a model

:40:09.:40:19.
:40:19.:40:24.

Islamic welfare state. That message resonates here in one of the most

:40:24.:40:28.

conservative parts of Pakistan. Even so, like every other

:40:28.:40:36.

politician, armed guards form part of his entourage. On every stop he

:40:36.:40:45.

takes the same message, change. New Pakistan. As he plies across the

:40:45.:40:50.

country, the confident Khan promises to end corruption and up-

:40:50.:40:56.

end the political status quo. That is striking a chord unthinkable a

:40:56.:41:06.
:41:06.:41:07.

decade ago. In the 2002 elections his Movement for Justice party won

:41:07.:41:17.
:41:17.:41:17.

only one seat. His rivals say he's inexperienced, niave, but 60-year-

:41:17.:41:24.

old Imran Khan thinks his time has come. What you are seeing is a

:41:24.:41:30.

revolution. This is beyond, if you see the passion, this is not normal

:41:30.:41:34.

politics. This is an uprising from the grassroots. And what has

:41:34.:41:40.

happened is that we have completely bypassed the traditional

:41:40.:41:43.

politicians and the people are moving away from them. There is no

:41:43.:41:47.

doubting his popularity, but can he win votes without the party

:41:47.:41:53.

machinery of his more established rivals. For decades people power

:41:53.:41:57.

used to be the mantra of the Pakistan People's Party. This time

:41:57.:42:07.
:42:07.:42:10.

it is mainly campaigning on the past. Rallies of Benazir Bhutto,

:42:10.:42:16.

executed, and her father also executed. In this Pakistani dynasty

:42:16.:42:23.

her son heads the party that won the last elections. Taliban threats

:42:23.:42:30.

mean he has had to leave Pakistan. So he is posting video messages on-

:42:30.:42:35.

line from Dubai. A party with a poor record in office hasn't had

:42:35.:42:39.

much of a campaign. Although traditional loyalties still hold in

:42:39.:42:47.

some areas. But Pakistan's other major political force is still

:42:47.:42:53.

taking to the road. Nawaz Sharif is a familiar face. I have been

:42:53.:42:58.

covering his election campaign since 1988. Good to see you again.

:42:58.:43:03.

How are you? Good. You are back on the campaign trail. He has been

:43:03.:43:07.

Prime Minister twice, from a family of wealthy industrialists. No

:43:07.:43:13.

wonder he can afford to travel by private jet. On the plane he reads

:43:13.:43:17.

the latest reports which predict he will be Prime Minister again. But I

:43:17.:43:22.

put it to him that Imran Khan and his message of change are

:43:22.:43:25.

challenging his Pakistan Muslim League, even on his home turf,

:43:25.:43:31.

Punjab, where elections are won and lost? We are changing and we will

:43:31.:43:36.

continue to change. We know we have the right team with us. We have a

:43:36.:43:43.

team of exports, people who have done it before. I think no other

:43:43.:43:52.

party can claim to have better people than we have in the group

:43:52.:43:56.

and they are honest. Our team is recognised by everybody in this

:43:56.:43:59.

country. What if they say if the traditional parties had done a

:44:00.:44:04.

better job then Pakistan would not be in the trouble it is? We need

:44:05.:44:13.

mature not immature people. Nawaz Sharif still has strong support.

:44:13.:44:19.

They shout "Prime Minister" as he arrives at this hotel in Islamabad.

:44:19.:44:24.

He's here to meet local shopkeeper. But even this business meeting

:44:24.:44:31.

descends into chaos. They are here because they say Nawaz Sharif is

:44:31.:44:39.

good for business. He says join him to make Pakistan a prosperous land.

:44:39.:44:49.
:44:49.:44:49.

He promises to end the constant power cuts crippling the economy.

:44:49.:44:56.

And then his favourite punch line. "I play cricket too", but it is not

:44:56.:45:02.

the only thing he has done, he says. He has also made the atom bomb.

:45:02.:45:05.

Pakistan went nuclear when he was in office. He knows that line goes

:45:05.:45:14.

down well here. This contest is possibly the most unpredictable

:45:14.:45:20.

Pakistan has ever seen. Not just because of new candidates, about 40

:45:20.:45:25.

million young Pakistanis will be eligible to vote for the first time.

:45:25.:45:32.

They are entering the debate. really excited for this, and the

:45:32.:45:37.

Pakistanis are youth-based the majority of the population is young.

:45:37.:45:41.

This time we have our voices raised for the empowerment of the youth

:45:41.:45:48.

and the new changes. In large parts of Pakistan Taliban attacks on some

:45:48.:45:53.

parties are dictating the course of the campaign. They are operating

:45:53.:45:55.

with impunity. That growing strength will have to be addressed.

:45:56.:46:05.
:46:06.:46:06.

No matter who wins. The big issue now is turnout on Saturday. Fear of

:46:06.:46:12.

attacks could keep many at home. If so, a political force which isn't

:46:12.:46:17.

on the ballot will have won the day. All the papers going on different

:46:17.:46:20.

things tomorrow, we will receive leave you with just one, the Sun's

:46:20.:46:30.
:46:30.:46:40.

front page, the Hair Dryer After starting the week with warm

:46:40.:46:44.

sunshine, Thursday's weather is not what you would expect or indeed

:46:44.:46:48.

hoped for with a deep area of low pressure barreling in from the

:46:48.:46:52.

Atlantic, bringing strong winds over the southern part of the UK.

:46:52.:46:55.

With heavy and persistent rain. It will be a breezy day for Northern

:46:55.:46:58.

Ireland. Brighter spells for the afternoon. But some thundery

:46:58.:47:01.

showers. Northern Scotland fares pretty well throughout the day.

:47:01.:47:05.

Probably the best of the sunshine here. There will be showers around

:47:05.:47:10.

too. The wind comparatively light to the strength of the south.

:47:10.:47:13.

Northern England wet through the afternoon. Rain pushing into the

:47:13.:47:16.

Midland. In the east sunny spells across East Anglia and the south-

:47:16.:47:20.

east of England T won't feel warm. 12-13 are the highs, strong and

:47:21.:47:26.

gusty winds and a chance of showers. Wettest and windyist through all of

:47:26.:47:30.

this, the south west of England and Wales. Gusts up to 65 miles around

:47:30.:47:34.

the Irish Sea coast. 55 miles an hour inland. The rain stick around

:47:34.:47:39.

for a good part of the day. For Thursday, some of the best of the

:47:40.:47:43.

sunshine to be found to the far north of the British Isles. By

:47:43.:47:45.

Friday hopefully we will see something dryer and brighter

:47:45.:47:49.

pushing into the south. Friday though does bring us another pretty

:47:49.:47:53.

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