09/05/2013 Newsnight


09/05/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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it the Holy Grail of British politics. What to do about

:00:17.:00:21.

childcare? But it is in confusion tonight. As Nick Clegg appears to

:00:21.:00:24.

veto coalition policy. Would it really lower childcare costs and

:00:25.:00:27.

increase pay to child minders as the Government says, or would

:00:27.:00:31.

increasing the number of children who can be supervised by child

:00:31.:00:34.

minders make things worse for everyone, especially the children?

:00:34.:00:38.

We will debate what works and whether the coalition itself needs

:00:38.:00:44.

some adult supervision. Also tonight, 26 years after a private

:00:44.:00:47.

detective called Daniel Morgan was murdered, five police

:00:47.:00:50.

investigations and a collapsed trial later tomorrow the Home

:00:51.:00:54.

Secretary will announce an inquiry, Daniel's brother wants justice.

:00:54.:00:59.

made a promise to my brother, I said I'm not going to stop until I

:00:59.:01:06.

see this exposed. The outspoken US writer and academic, Dr Cornel West

:01:06.:01:09.

joins us, to discuss race in America, and why he's disappointed

:01:10.:01:18.

with Barack Obama. And some thought in the best rock

:01:18.:01:27.

drummer in the world, in one of the world's first super groups, Ginger.

:01:27.:01:33.

I have never thrown a TV out of a hotel window in my life. I walked

:01:33.:01:42.

through a hotel glass doors once, but not intentionally.

:01:42.:01:46.

Good evening, one of the marks of civilisation, you might think, is

:01:46.:01:51.

how parents, families and ultimately a nation,s after its

:01:51.:01:55.

children. Childcare in this country is some of the most expensive in

:01:55.:01:58.

Europe, a worry for millions of parents, it is also the most

:01:59.:02:03.

tightly regulate. The Government plans to relax the rules by

:02:03.:02:07.

allowing child minders to take extra children into their groups,

:02:07.:02:10.

has been blown apart by this programme's revelation that the

:02:10.:02:14.

Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, is opposing what is thought to be

:02:14.:02:18.

settled policy. What better way to spend a Thursday afternoon than

:02:18.:02:28.
:02:28.:02:28.

gently painting a paving stone. The Busy Bees Nursery in Colchester in

:02:28.:02:34.

Essex certainly feels busy, 86 little ones spend time here every

:02:34.:02:37.

week. It is one of the biggest chains in the country, and at the

:02:37.:02:42.

heart of a coalition spat. Last night on Newsnight we revealed that

:02:42.:02:47.

Nick Clegg was uncomfortable with the idea of watering down the rules

:02:47.:02:50.

on adult-to-children ratios in childcare. This morning a

:02:50.:02:53.

Conservative minister was hauled before the Commons to explain what

:02:53.:02:59.

on earth was going on. The real cost of childcare, which every

:02:59.:03:08.

family in this country faces has risen by 77% in real terms since

:03:08.:03:14.

2003. Childcare inflation is going up by 6% every year. If we don't do

:03:14.:03:19.

something about this, if we don't reform the supply of childcare we

:03:19.:03:25.

are going to find that it becomes prohibitive. The scale of public

:03:25.:03:30.

opposition to her plans has been overwhelming. The Government's own

:03:30.:03:38.

adviser on childcare Professor Katy Brown has said the ratio plans and

:03:38.:03:43.

I quote, "make no sense at all". The minister was piling them so

:03:43.:03:47.

high and wanting to teach them so cheap it was bound to come crashing

:03:47.:03:55.

down at some point. Back at nursery in Colchester there was an extra

:03:55.:04:00.

grown-up keeping an eye on the kids this afternoon. And keeping an eye

:04:00.:04:06.

too on what Conservative ministers were saying. When we consulted on

:04:06.:04:09.

this idea, the response from experts from nurseries and

:04:09.:04:12.

crucially from parents was overwhelmingly negative, in other

:04:12.:04:15.

words they raised a lot of serious concerns. That is why I want to

:04:15.:04:19.

make sure that we have a careful look at these proposals, don't take

:04:19.:04:23.

a leap in the dark, if you like, in a way that won't necessarily reduce

:04:23.:04:29.

costs or raise the quality of childcare. Margaret Randall set up

:04:29.:04:32.

this chain of nurseries 30 years ago, happily for Nick Clegg she

:04:32.:04:39.

shares his view. This nursery here is an outstanding nursery. We

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wouldn't change ratios just to save costs and I don't think our parents

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would be happy if we did either. are going in for a bit of

:04:48.:04:51.

multicoloured tower building here. You only have to spend half an hour

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in a nursery like this to realise how hard it is to keep track of how

:04:56.:05:00.

many children you have around you, there is four here building their

:05:00.:05:04.

towers. For the coalition wrestling with the cost of living, being seen

:05:04.:05:08.

to do something about it, is absolutely crucial. The cost of

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living for many young families is ramped up by the cost of childcare.

:05:12.:05:17.

But what about ratios of staff-to- children, can tinkering with them

:05:17.:05:19.

make a difference in terms of the care the children are offered, and

:05:19.:05:23.

can it make a difference in terms of the bills that parents receive

:05:23.:05:30.

every month? Conservative ministers proudly trumpet how good the staff-

:05:30.:05:35.

to-children ratios are in England, one adult to look after every four

:05:35.:05:40.

kids. The proposed shake-up would change it to one to six, the same

:05:40.:05:48.

as in the netherlands and Ireland. The ratio in France is 1-8.

:05:48.:05:52.

International comparisons ram home how expensive childcare is. It is

:05:52.:05:55.

costs on average 27% of family income in the UK. It is a similar

:05:55.:06:00.

figure in Ireland, but it is just 10% in both the Netherlands and

:06:00.:06:06.

France. Both sides of the coalition emphasise the idea to change the

:06:06.:06:10.

staffing ratios is one they have been taking soundings on rather

:06:10.:06:13.

than firm policy. Conservatives stress no nursery or childminder

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would be forced to look after more children, staff would be better

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trained. But would changing the rules save parents money? We did

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some very quick calculation and we couldn't see where a saving was

:06:26.:06:31.

going to come from. There would be nothing material to give back to

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the parents. Coalition spats can seem arcane outside Westminster,

:06:37.:06:41.

but not this one for Anita here to collect her son, Barnaby. It is

:06:41.:06:46.

something we have concerns about, the ratios lower down definitely

:06:46.:06:50.

should not be increased. I cannot imagine how you could look after

:06:50.:06:54.

more than two or three two-year- olds, it would be really difficult.

:06:54.:06:57.

I don't know, I don't work in childcare. But I cannot imagine how

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they would cope. For nurseries, child minders and politicians too,

:07:02.:07:09.

the Holy Grail is convincing parents like Anita that they can

:07:09.:07:12.

provide top-notch affordable child cautious getting there is proving

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rather tricky. We have been trying all day to find

:07:17.:07:20.

people who work in childcare in this country in favour of the

:07:20.:07:24.

changes of the ratios from children-to-child minders, while we

:07:24.:07:28.

did identify one or two, none were able to talk to us tonight. We have

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our guest from the early years foundation. Is there any hard

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evidence that changing the ratios makes any difference at all?

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evidence is that you have to have the right ratios, and you have to

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have the right set of qualifications and you have to have

:07:43.:07:46.

the right environment. It is the combination that actually is about

:07:46.:07:50.

high quality. That's what's important. So when people say, yes,

:07:50.:07:59.

but if you can just, ratios don't matter to quality, it is assuming

:07:59.:08:03.

that ratios are part of a much more complex combination. That is very

:08:03.:08:08.

dangerous. You accept affordability is a problem for a huge number of

:08:08.:08:11.

people. Entirely.If you had the choice with not being able to

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afford it at all, and therefore being excluded, or going to a

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nursery where there is five when you would rather have four children

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in a little group, you might settle for something that is not as great

:08:21.:08:25.

as you think? I think we have to look at it in a much broader way.

:08:25.:08:30.

First of all Mr Clegg has been brave enough to stand up and listen

:08:30.:08:33.

to the sector, nobody else has been listening to it. They are

:08:33.:08:36.

completely coherent on it, there is no real agreement that changing

:08:36.:08:41.

ratios is a good idea. He has a huge policy driver for social

:08:41.:08:45.

mobility and the two-year-olds in to nurseries from the 40% poorest

:08:45.:08:52.

parts of this country is one of the big moves to er they call early

:08:52.:08:55.

intervention. You capture the very young children very early and help

:08:55.:08:59.

them to ensure that they succeed in school. Isn't there common ground

:08:59.:09:03.

on that? Well, because two-year- olds have the biggest variation in

:09:03.:09:07.

child development. To narrow the gap in two-year-olds you have to

:09:07.:09:11.

have really good language acquisition. A child from a poorer

:09:11.:09:16.

family will hear 600 words an hour, a child from a professional family

:09:16.:09:21.

will hear 2,100. By the time they are three the difference is 30

:09:21.:09:25.

million words they have heard. If you reduce the ratios you limited

:09:25.:09:30.

the interaction, you limited chances for one-to-one and strong

:09:30.:09:36.

empathetic connections. Children under three are developing their

:09:36.:09:41.

synatic connections at a rate per second. Wouldn't it allow those who

:09:41.:09:45.

can't afford to go to a group to go to a group? We can. This thing with

:09:45.:09:50.

France, I paid for myself to go to France and have a good look, France

:09:50.:09:54.

contributes very significantly to its service. The Government is

:09:54.:09:58.

trying to do something on the cheap. It is not paying the fair rate. If

:09:58.:10:02.

you talk about early years as part of education, nobody says how much

:10:02.:10:05.

an hour in a school costs, there is no issue about it. It is the same

:10:05.:10:08.

in childcare. If you know what the hourly rate is for childcare, then

:10:08.:10:13.

pay it. Of course the Government don't, they want to get it in cheap.

:10:13.:10:18.

That's why parents have to pick up the bigger gap. Do you have a clue

:10:18.:10:22.

where this policy is tonight? Not at all. But I was very

:10:22.:10:25.

interested you observed that you couldn't get anyone to speak out

:10:25.:10:30.

against it. The thing is that really depresses the sector is

:10:30.:10:34.

there are some very interesting things to. Do the ratio thing has

:10:34.:10:39.

hijacked a much bigger agenda, the big huge agenda is the social

:10:39.:10:46.

mobility agenda that would make a significance to -- significant

:10:46.:10:51.

difference to a huge number of little two-year-olds. Where is the

:10:51.:10:57.

policy tonight? My sense is that ratios die, it is not official yet.

:10:57.:11:02.

Because both Liberal Democrats and Conservativess I have spoken to

:11:02.:11:05.

have said the strength of Nick Clegg's feel something so strong.

:11:05.:11:09.

thought it was all agreed? They did think that. There has been a lot of

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heated exchanges across Westminster and the lobby today about whether

:11:12.:11:16.

it was in the nature, I do think it is a bit weird that you have a

:11:16.:11:19.

consultation and you have agreed it before your consultation, none the

:11:19.:11:22.

less that is Government policy and has been forever, that you agree

:11:22.:11:26.

your policy and then you consult. That is what they did. Earlier

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today my colleague got hold of the letters between Elizabeth Truss and

:11:30.:11:33.

Nick Clegg, where she says to Nick Clegg and other cabinet ministers,

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I need you to sign this off, speak now or forever hold your peace. The

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highest profile bit of her reforms are the ratios, this will be the

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biggest thing about it and they sign it off. This is last December.

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Added to which, before Elizabeth Truss entered politics this is what

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she wrote and talked about. When she was promoted to the cabinet

:11:55.:12:00.

almost a year ago this was clearly what she was going to do. I think

:12:00.:12:03.

Conservatives feel that this was a long time coming. I think right at

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the top of the Government the Prime Minister is very irritated about

:12:08.:12:13.

this. Irritated, where does that leave the coalition? I think as I

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said last night this is setting a precedent. Last night was supposed

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to be this good moment for the coalition where you had them

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showing, look, we maybe two years away from a general election but we

:12:26.:12:29.

can still agree enough policy to have a Queen's Speech. We slightly

:12:29.:12:32.

ruined the show. Because we showed that actually even on things that

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are supposedly done and dusted they can be unpicked. That precedent is

:12:38.:12:41.

what worries Conservatives, Lib Dems are clearly worried enough

:12:41.:12:45.

about that to be going around and saying hold on a second it wasn't a

:12:45.:12:48.

done deal, really quibbling on that issue. It has then led on to, I

:12:48.:12:53.

don't think it is causal, but I do think at moss officerically there

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is some thinking, the -- atmosphereically there is some

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thinking. I think there will be talks about this not mentioned in

:13:05.:13:08.

the Queen's Speech, and the Prime Minister has said go for it. He

:13:08.:13:13.

never says that. There is a new spirit, political journalism we are

:13:13.:13:17.

always breathless about these things, a new era in the coalition.

:13:17.:13:20.

But a lot of people feel two years out from the general election that

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there is a feeling things won't be so easy to get deals on. What is

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Government policy tonight, where does all this leave the coalition,

:13:28.:13:34.

and does Labour actually have an alternative? Sharon Hodgson speaks

:13:34.:13:39.

for Labour on children's issues, Clare Perry is an adviser to David

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Cameron, and the Lib Dem, Duncan Hames is the parliamentary private

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secretary to Nick Clegg. When did Nick Clegg change his mind on it?

:13:50.:13:54.

He has been in discussions with Government ministers for weeks.

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Obviously the Government has been consulting. It is very important

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for something as important as who looks after families and children

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and how that the Government listens to what carers and families,

:14:07.:14:11.

parents have to say about this. When did he change his mind on it?

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He has been talking to Government ministers for weeks about this

:14:15.:14:20.

issue. As far as he's concerned this matter hasn't been closed. It

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is important that we should listen to what people say. Was his mind

:14:27.:14:33.

made up in December, he hadn't made up his mind, he had an open mind

:14:33.:14:37.

and now he has? He thought it was right there was a public

:14:37.:14:39.

consultation. It is important we do everything we can as a Government

:14:39.:14:43.

to get it right, and that involves listening to people. Was it a

:14:43.:14:47.

coincidence he made up his mind on day he was visiting a nursery?

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think you will find that I saw him on Tuesday, when he met with

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Elizabeth Truss, he obviously had an important meeting with her about

:14:54.:14:58.

the subject then. So he changed his mind then, I'm trying to find out

:14:58.:15:01.

when he changed his mind and whether today was a stunt. Was it a

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stunt to go to a child's nursery, have that planned and go ahead and

:15:06.:15:10.

make this splash? This policy matter, this measure has been up

:15:10.:15:14.

for debate within the Government for weeks. The Government has been

:15:14.:15:17.

listening to what the public, parents, carers and what the

:15:17.:15:20.

experts have been saying about it and trying to resolve what is the

:15:20.:15:25.

best way phwoar. It is one of a whole range -- forward. This is one

:15:25.:15:28.

of a whole range of measure that is the Government is trying to make

:15:28.:15:34.

childcare more affordable. This does blow a hole in one of the

:15:34.:15:38.

biggest ones that Elizabeth Truss cares about? This is a slightly

:15:38.:15:45.

depression of politicianing studying their navals. The reality

:15:45.:15:50.

is millions of womens can't go back to work and they want to because it

:15:50.:15:53.

is difficult to find quality childcare. When we talk about the

:15:53.:15:57.

ratios, a tiny part of the proposals. I was involved for a

:15:57.:16:00.

noft for profit nursery on the board for five years, they were

:16:00.:16:04.

stymied by the racial yo. The problem with the ratios is they are

:16:04.:16:09.

so prescriptive, there is no way to say you have highly qualified staff

:16:09.:16:12.

perhaps we could relax the ratios and reinvest in staff. One the

:16:12.:16:15.

things that didn't come across is these changes are entirely

:16:15.:16:18.

voluntary, they are up to nurseries and parents to decide. You will

:16:18.:16:24.

change the ratios? I think changing the ratios is part of a whole range

:16:24.:16:27.

of measures that gives us better- quality and more affordable

:16:28.:16:31.

childcare. I would be disappoint if we dropped that. You might have to?

:16:31.:16:33.

That is coalition politics, unfortunate lo. It is such an

:16:33.:16:37.

important thing, it is too important thing to play petty

:16:37.:16:40.

politics with it. Sharon's Government did a lot in this area.

:16:40.:16:44.

We have struggled for years, we have some of the most expensive and

:16:44.:16:47.

lowest-quality childcare in the western world, we have to fix that

:16:47.:16:51.

for parents. When David Cameron says it is the Holy Grail, and he

:16:51.:16:54.

presumably did think he had a deal on this, and Elizabeth Truss

:16:54.:16:58.

thought she had a deal in December, you must be irritated? I am and

:16:58.:17:02.

disappointed. We talked a lot about ratios, we haven't talked at all

:17:02.:17:06.

about the additional money we are going to give parents about the

:17:06.:17:08.

affordability problem. All the other structural changes that will

:17:08.:17:12.

mean child minders who had exited this industry in droves because

:17:12.:17:15.

they were driven out by red tape will come back and give parents

:17:15.:17:19.

more flexibility that they need. you regret when Labour was in power

:17:19.:17:22.

you didn't do enough on this, this is when the problem really became

:17:22.:17:26.

significant? We inherited such a terrible situation with regard to

:17:26.:17:31.

childcare and the work force, and we did a lot. And the work force,

:17:31.:17:36.

the status, the qualifications was raised a lot. But currently we all

:17:36.:17:40.

recognised we face a childcare crisis. More than a decade to sort

:17:40.:17:45.

it out? We did do a lot. Everybody usually acknowledges it. Childcare

:17:45.:17:51.

since 2003 has risen by 77%, costs. Everyone will say that? Why did the

:17:51.:17:56.

Government one of the first things they did was cut the Childcare Tax

:17:56.:18:00.

Credit from 80% to 70%. That was immediately taking money off people

:18:00.:18:03.

that they were using to pay towards their childcare. The subject to

:18:03.:18:07.

hand is ratios, I think ratios don't have to be discussed in this

:18:07.:18:11.

whole debate. A lot of the things, some of the things that Liz Truss

:18:11.:18:18.

is talking about with regard to the qualifications and Professor Katy

:18:18.:18:23.

Nutbrown we agree with her, but she says the proposals on ratios would

:18:23.:18:27.

be detrimental and damaging to children's safety and quality.

:18:27.:18:32.

Again, forgive me, I have huge amount of respect for you

:18:32.:18:38.

colleagues, there is scaremongering about ratios, we are relaxing them

:18:38.:18:42.

to French models. We hold them up to Scandinavian and French models

:18:42.:18:45.

saying it is a better system. is a great deal more state

:18:45.:18:49.

intervention in the way it is run. You would accept that. They are

:18:49.:18:55.

strongly run by the state. That is where the money comes from.

:18:55.:18:58.

particularly deprived two-year-olds. This isn't a shortage of money we

:18:58.:19:02.

spend twice The OC D average. is not true, that is disputed, it

:19:02.:19:07.

is less it is �4.5 billion at most. Every child gets vouchers worth

:19:07.:19:11.

�2,000 a year, there is a lot of money spent and the system is

:19:11.:19:15.

broken. There has been a dramatic fall in the number of child minders.

:19:15.:19:18.

I don't think it is chieped child minders with time on their hands,

:19:18.:19:25.

we don't have enough of them. I support the other issue of

:19:25.:19:30.

childminder agencies, so people passionate to look after children

:19:30.:19:34.

who don't want to file tax returns and all that, will concentrate on

:19:35.:19:39.

doing what they love best. Are you saying the ratios question is now a

:19:39.:19:42.

dead issue, it is gone and won't go through? We haven't seen the

:19:42.:19:48.

evidence that it would help either on making childcare more affordable.

:19:48.:19:54.

Unless you have the evidence you don't have a firm way forward.

:19:54.:19:57.

have just come out of committee, which is one of the things that

:19:57.:20:01.

Nick Clegg might have looked at. We had a massively fierce debate in

:20:02.:20:06.

committee were this was discussed. The lack of evidence, under

:20:06.:20:10.

scrutiny this policy fell apart. There is no evidence in support.

:20:10.:20:13.

Where is the evidence that reducing the ratios. All the experts, the

:20:13.:20:17.

parents, the voice of parents in this should be listened to, as well

:20:17.:20:19.

as the experts and the professionals, they are all against

:20:19.:20:23.

it T If we have the tight, again I don't want to talk about ratios, if

:20:23.:20:28.

we have the tightest ratios in western Europe and we are not

:20:28.:20:31.

delivering affordable high-quality childcare with those ratios it is

:20:31.:20:34.

right to look at the industry and say we have to be bold and take

:20:34.:20:39.

some really big steps to try to deliver better childcare. The point

:20:39.:20:44.

was raised about the possibility of a vote next week on the European

:20:44.:20:48.

issue, which may be completely different issue, or it may be that

:20:48.:20:51.

the irritation that David Cameron is feeling about one thing means

:20:51.:20:55.

he's saying he's quite relaxed if Conservative members vote against

:20:55.:20:58.

Government policy? I think again, people watching this will be

:20:58.:21:03.

depressed to hear that politicians are engaging in tit for tat votes

:21:03.:21:05.

in the Houses of Parliament. don't think they are. Is that how

:21:05.:21:10.

you see it, as a tit for tat vote? Potentially. Not on this, parents

:21:10.:21:15.

are massively against it. We have a childcare system that is broken, we

:21:15.:21:18.

have very expensive childcare in the country, we have a situation

:21:18.:21:22.

where the costs have gone up and the ratios need to be reduced.

:21:22.:21:26.

is the answer, what would Labour do. We are looking at this, we have a

:21:26.:21:30.

childcare commission. You had 13 years to look at it. We did so much.

:21:30.:21:34.

Drove up the costs 70% that is quite an achievement. It wasn't our

:21:34.:21:38.

policies that drove up the costs, there are all sorts of other issues

:21:38.:21:41.

in play that affect the cost. One of the things was we improved the

:21:41.:21:45.

standard of the work force, we started improving that, we brought

:21:45.:21:49.

in the early years professional status, that was massively welcomed.

:21:49.:21:52.

No disagreement on. That we get back to the point of saying, we

:21:52.:21:55.

never talk about parents and say what do parents want, which is more

:21:55.:22:00.

choice in this, we have to take important decisions and try and

:22:00.:22:03.

educate people, educate everybody as to why this could be the right

:22:03.:22:13.
:22:13.:22:14.

thing to do. Still to come:

:22:14.:22:16.

Legendary drummer Ginger Baker bashes out an interview with Steve

:22:16.:22:23.

Smith. Tomorrow the Government is expected to announce a public

:22:24.:22:28.

inquiry into one of the most murky unsolved murders of the past 30

:22:28.:22:32.

years. In 1987 Daniel Morgan, a private investigator was killed

:22:32.:22:37.

with an axe, his body found in a south London pub car park. In a

:22:37.:22:40.

moment we will hear from his brother, Alastair, who has

:22:41.:22:43.

campaigned through five police investigations and a collapsed

:22:43.:22:51.

trial for someone to be held accountable. In March 1987 the

:22:51.:22:54.

private detective, Daniel Morgan, was found dead, an axe in his head,

:22:54.:22:59.

in the car park of the Golden Lion Pub in south London. His family

:22:59.:23:03.

believe he was on the verge of exposing police corruption. Ever

:23:03.:23:07.

since they have campaigned for his killers to be brought to justice.

:23:07.:23:11.

Five separate police inquiries have failed to do that. Now we

:23:11.:23:15.

understand the Home Secretary will announce an independent judge-led

:23:15.:23:20.

inquiry into the case. It was the Leveson Inquiry which brought

:23:20.:23:25.

Daniel Morgan back into the public sigh. At the inquiry the former

:23:25.:23:30.

Crimewatch presenter, Jackie Hames alleged collusion between those

:23:30.:23:34.

suspected of Morgan's murder and the News of the World. In 2002 her

:23:34.:23:39.

husband had been leading a new inquiry into the Morgan murder and

:23:39.:23:43.

the couple had been put under surveillance bit paper. There was

:23:43.:23:47.

various things that happened and you can't, I think any reasonable

:23:47.:23:50.

person would find it very difficult not to put them together and feel

:23:50.:23:55.

that there was in some way, there was some collusion between people

:23:55.:23:59.

at the News of the World and people who were suspected of committing

:23:59.:24:05.

the murder of Daniel Morgan. I can't put it any clearer than that.

:24:05.:24:08.

Jonathan Rhys, Daniel Morgan's business partner has been suspected

:24:08.:24:12.

of the murder, he has always denied it. According to the Morgan family

:24:12.:24:20.

the two men had fallen out, partly because Rhys had been employing

:24:20.:24:23.

offduty police officers at their firm. The Metropolitan Police have

:24:23.:24:27.

since admitted, at the highest ranks, commissioner and Deputy

:24:27.:24:35.

Assistant Commissioner level that initial inquiry was crippled as a

:24:35.:24:40.

result of corruption, corruption amongst those investigating and

:24:40.:24:45.

corruption amongst those who protected the guilty parties.

:24:45.:24:49.

16 years there were four separate investigations, none came to trial.

:24:49.:24:53.

The family kept campaigning and then the Metropolitan Police

:24:53.:24:59.

authority supported them. Finally the police apologised. The case,

:24:59.:25:03.

particularly in the early stages suffered from the taint of

:25:03.:25:13.
:25:13.:25:13.

corruption. That was written by the deputy commissioner in 1986.

:25:14.:25:17.

Another inquiry began and in 2008 four people were charged over

:25:18.:25:23.

Daniel Morgan's murder. But the trial collapsed over the use of

:25:23.:25:27.

Supergrass evidence. Now the family's lawyer hopes the new

:25:27.:25:31.

inquiry, looking at old police files will show exactly who knew

:25:31.:25:36.

what and when over more than two decades. The information that is of

:25:36.:25:41.

interest to this family and the public will lie in those shelves in

:25:41.:25:47.

those filing cabinets. The exchanges between the senior

:25:47.:25:51.

management of the Metropolitan Police. The exchanges between the

:25:51.:25:54.

Metropolitan Police and the Home Office. As the authority governing

:25:54.:26:00.

the police. The exchanges between the Metropolitan Police and the

:26:00.:26:06.

Crown Prosecution Service which allowed this matter to remain

:26:06.:26:10.

unaddressed. Daniel Morgan's family hope that the inquiry can do the

:26:10.:26:14.

work quickly. Though any report might have to wait until possible

:26:14.:26:19.

criminal trials, hacking and corruption, are over.

:26:19.:26:24.

A little earlier I spoke to Daniel Morgan's brother, Alastair.

:26:24.:26:30.

What do you hope will come from this new inquiry? Well I suppose

:26:30.:26:36.

more than anything else a recognition of the extent of the

:26:36.:26:42.

corruption that has gone on in this case. You have had 26 years, five

:26:42.:26:45.

police inquiries, you have had one court case, which then collapsed.

:26:45.:26:48.

There must be somewhere in the back of your mind you think this could

:26:48.:26:52.

be another deadend? My experience of dealing with this case. The more

:26:52.:26:58.

I find out about it, the worse it gets. If we are going to deal with

:26:58.:27:01.

corruption in the police force, we have to look at it straight in the

:27:02.:27:07.

eye. We have to see how it works, the nuts and bolts of it, where it

:27:07.:27:11.

started what decisions were made et cetera, et cetera. What I want from

:27:11.:27:18.

this inquiry is to look at this corruption straight in the eye, if

:27:18.:27:28.
:27:28.:27:30.

we want do that we can never begin to deal with it. Why do you think

:27:30.:27:34.

five police inquiries have gotten nowhere? Because of corruption.

:27:34.:27:38.

Corruption in the beginning, corruption which basically

:27:38.:27:42.

sabotaged the first inquiry. A refusal to recognise that

:27:42.:27:50.

corruption, repeatedly, over many, many years. Coming to a point where

:27:50.:27:55.

evidential opportunities are lost and where the case has been, and is

:27:55.:28:00.

so weighted down with the failings of previous investigations that it

:28:00.:28:10.
:28:10.:28:10.

becomes a legal nightmare to deal W -- With. Would you accept the

:28:10.:28:14.

police in 2013 are very different than they were in 1986, would you

:28:14.:28:19.

accept that? No, I don't accept that. You hear that was then and

:28:19.:28:27.

this is now, I mean if the same thing happened now as happened 26

:28:27.:28:31.

years ago I would be very fearful that the police would act in

:28:31.:28:39.

exactly the same way. That the reflex default cover-up mentality

:28:39.:28:43.

is still there in the British police. You have now a Home

:28:43.:28:46.

Secretary in Theresa May who appears to be taking this very

:28:46.:28:50.

seriously, you have also got something else that has changed. We

:28:50.:28:54.

have had the Hillsborough inquiry and the Leveson Inquiry, we have

:28:54.:28:58.

had all the stuff about the phone tapping, do you think that helps

:28:58.:29:04.

you in a way? Yes it has set the scene. I think it has provided the

:29:04.:29:09.

background to what has been happening in this case and in many

:29:09.:29:14.

ways the fact that Daniel's murder came up in the Leveson Inquiry

:29:14.:29:20.

helped us. Once again it brought back into focus this murder and why

:29:20.:29:24.

would were the News of the World doing what they did in that context.

:29:24.:29:31.

Do you think you will live to see someone finally put on trial and

:29:31.:29:35.

convicted for the murder of your brother? I think that is extremely

:29:35.:29:42.

unlikely at this stage. The police have, I just don't believe so, I

:29:42.:29:49.

don't believe so. To put place any hope in it I think would be asking

:29:49.:29:56.

for further disappointment. What keeps you going, 26 years?

:29:56.:30:01.

remember more than 20 years ago, when I reached a point where I

:30:01.:30:05.

found it completely unacceptable what was going on, I made a promise

:30:05.:30:12.

to my brother, I said I'm not going to stop until I see this exposed. I

:30:12.:30:19.

wanted convictions. As we have seen we haven't had any. But the

:30:19.:30:24.

corruption I promised myself and my brother that I would expose this

:30:24.:30:28.

corruption. I think if I hadn't done it, knowing, having seen what

:30:29.:30:34.

I saw then, I would probably have, I don't know, you know it would

:30:34.:30:39.

have destroyed me, I think internally to not take any

:30:39.:30:45.

responsibility for it. Just the fact that the Home Secretary is

:30:45.:30:51.

going to announce another inquiry, is there a sense within the family

:30:51.:30:55.

that you have been vindicated after all these years? Yes, there is

:30:55.:31:00.

finally a sense that somebody outside the police is taking us

:31:00.:31:04.

seriously. That, yes, there was corruption. We have been trying to

:31:04.:31:12.

tell you that for a quarter of a century, you know. Yeah, to that

:31:12.:31:20.

extent we feel vindicated, but there is a way to go. The anatomy

:31:20.:31:25.

of this corruption needs to be looked at very carefully. Thank you

:31:25.:31:30.

very much. He was said to be the greatest drummer of his generation,

:31:30.:31:37.

one of the first-ever super-combos Cream. Now Ginger Baker has told

:31:37.:31:46.

the story of his own life in a new documentary.

:31:46.:31:53.

Cream, the first super-group, Eric Clapton on guitar, Jack Bruce on

:31:53.:32:00.

bass and in the drum chair, Ginger Baker. When I met Eric I went, got

:32:00.:32:06.

it, it was a rewarding, especially the first year or so, then it

:32:06.:32:14.

started to go all awry by these bloody things with Marshall written

:32:14.:32:24.
:32:24.:32:26.

on them.Am Pli fires, too loud was it? --AmIfyers? Wow, my hearing is

:32:26.:32:32.

damaged from the last days of Cream. Shall we sewer Rick? Jack was the

:32:32.:32:42.
:32:42.:32:45.

main culprit with the volume. A useful drummer and equestian and

:32:46.:32:51.

polo player, Ginger Baker isn't in the saddle so much these days at 73.

:32:51.:32:58.

Maybe all that hellraising back in his pomp has taken its toll. In a

:32:58.:33:05.

new documentary Baker's illustrious former sideman grapples with the

:33:05.:33:09.

drummer's enigma. I won't be his doctor or psychologist or make a

:33:09.:33:14.

diagnosis, I can't make a diagnosis of Ginger, when I was driving in

:33:14.:33:22.

today I thought do I know Ginger well? Do I? I have been with him in

:33:22.:33:26.

fairly rarified situations which have allowed me to see certain

:33:26.:33:30.

sides of him, I probably haven't seen him like you have seen him

:33:30.:33:34.

because I didn't take the effort, the time, the risk to step into his

:33:34.:33:40.

life. I was only a risk to myself, says our man. Take that time with

:33:40.:33:46.

the glass door in the New York hotel. Anything that happened was

:33:46.:33:55.

always me. I have never thrown a TV out of a hotel window in my life. I

:33:55.:34:01.

walked through the GoramHotel glass doors one day, not intentionally.

:34:01.:34:08.

But it was, I went to kick the door open and missed the bar and went

:34:08.:34:10.

through the glass and walked through the glass. Ginger is as

:34:10.:34:15.

good as gold, unless you push him too far, as the documentary-maker

:34:15.:34:25.
:34:25.:34:30.

found out. Ginger Baker hit me in the BEEP nose. I don't like silly

:34:30.:34:36.

questions, he asked how did it feel, and I go, I don't know. How did it

:34:36.:34:44.

feel! No. They are a four piece, Ginger Baker, Jack Bruce and Eric

:34:44.:34:54.
:34:54.:34:54.

Clapton and Paul on Bass. Now this is what late-night BBC Two ought to

:34:54.:34:59.

look like. After years of living abroad, GB is back in the UK. And

:34:59.:35:04.

on the road. Not with this band, but with the unimprovably named

:35:04.:35:14.
:35:14.:35:15.

Ginger Baker's Jazz Confusion. thought I had retired. I managed to

:35:15.:35:20.

outlive my pension, as it were, so I had to go back to work. Watching

:35:20.:35:24.

that film, one version of your life, somebody else's version of your

:35:24.:35:30.

life, did it make you feel yeah there were things you regreted

:35:30.:35:38.

along the way? I have got more regrets than most people, I think.

:35:38.:35:47.

Enormous regrets of things that I wish had never happened. No I do.

:35:47.:35:55.

Lots and lots of regrets. I lost everything, I have lost everything

:35:55.:36:00.

six or seven times in my life. makes you an incredible survivor

:36:00.:36:07.

doesn't it, you keep coming back? Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people

:36:07.:36:12.

would have committed suicide several times if they had happen to

:36:12.:36:16.

them what I have had. When you lose everything, especially when you

:36:16.:36:22.

have worked for years at it, I trusted the wrong people. You

:36:22.:36:29.

really should trust the people that are not always pleasant to you. I'm

:36:29.:36:38.

a mug. If I may ask you this question, how would you like to be

:36:38.:36:46.

remembered Ginger Baker, when that distant day comes? Drummer.Before

:36:46.:36:51.

the end of the programme we will have tomorrow's front pages. First,

:36:51.:36:54.

if the traditional fault lines in Britain have always been defined

:36:54.:36:58.

one way or another by class, in the United States they are also often

:36:58.:37:03.

defined by race. You might think in the 21st century with an African-

:37:03.:37:07.

American President that racial barriers are destroyed or in the

:37:07.:37:12.

process of eroding. Every so often something catches the attention

:37:12.:37:16.

where race becomes a persistent sub-plot in American life. It is

:37:16.:37:21.

mixed with stories of rich and poor. Earlier this week the extraordinary

:37:21.:37:27.

rescue of young women, apparently held captive for years in Ohio led

:37:27.:37:32.

the man who helped free them, Charles Ramsey give this account of

:37:32.:37:35.

what happened. I knew something was wrong when a little pretty white

:37:35.:37:44.

girl ran into a black man's arms, something is wrong here.

:37:44.:37:49.

Dr Cornel West is here joining me now. That was just a little thing,

:37:49.:37:52.

but it really caught my eye, what did you make of that kind of

:37:52.:37:57.

comment? I think he's speaking from his soul. I think in the United

:37:57.:38:00.

States we have made tremendous progress in black elites having

:38:00.:38:03.

access to opportunities, but in terms of the black working-class

:38:03.:38:07.

and poor, including white, red and yellow poor and working-classes,

:38:07.:38:12.

they have been devastated by the policies of the last 30 years or so.

:38:12.:38:16.

The policies, all the policies? goes back to Reaganism, through

:38:16.:38:23.

Clinton. You financialise at the top, with the oligarchic economy,

:38:23.:38:27.

greed with profits by any means, and privatisationing public

:38:27.:38:30.

education and prisons and then you have militarising. The national

:38:31.:38:34.

security state expands, drones dropping bombs on innocent people,

:38:34.:38:41.

war crimes, you have got attacks on whistleblowers, Brother Julian

:38:41.:38:45.

Assange, I was bless today talk to him this week. Bradley Manning,

:38:45.:38:50.

dealing with trying to tell the truth about secrets and dirty wars.

:38:50.:38:57.

Those things are clearly mattering deeply to you. But things like you

:38:57.:38:59.

have got an African-American President, by I suspect you never

:38:59.:39:02.

thought you would see in your lifetime? I never thought I would.

:39:02.:39:07.

A lot of white people who voted for him. In 2008 a lot more African-

:39:07.:39:11.

American voters came out and voted as a percentage than ever before

:39:11.:39:14.

some things have changed a lot more the better? There is no doubt there

:39:14.:39:18.

has been progress, my brother, and I was blessed last night to be at

:39:18.:39:24.

the University of Sheffield we had a magnificent memorial for Malcolm

:39:24.:39:32.

X, I was invited by Simon goldhill, I had dialogue with Ben Okrey, and

:39:32.:39:37.

the result is what, unbelievable progress on one level, but Malcolm

:39:37.:39:42.

X used to say stab folk in the back nine inches and pull it out six

:39:42.:39:47.

inches and celebrate your progress. We have poverty. I have read the

:39:47.:39:50.

Institute of Fiscal Studies where you have policies pushing a million

:39:50.:39:53.

children here in Britain into poverty too. Why are you

:39:53.:39:58.

disappointed with Obama, you supported him in 2008. You said of

:39:58.:40:04.

him more recently April 2013 saying he was a black mascot of Wall

:40:04.:40:12.

Street oligarchs and a puppet of plutocrats. It is trying to be

:40:12.:40:16.

truthful and biting because I was so disappointed. I did 65 events

:40:16.:40:22.

for him in my support. My question is what is your relationship to the

:40:22.:40:27.

legacy of matter then Luther king others and dor day Day. We talked

:40:27.:40:30.

for four hours, he gave me the idea that he was coming out of the

:40:30.:40:40.

tradition in a significant way. Martin Luthur king, there was

:40:40.:40:44.

Vietnam. There was not a word about the highest level of poverty since

:40:44.:40:49.

196 0tpwh this regard. Are you saying Obama is responsible for war

:40:49.:40:54.

crimes? I they commit war crimes when they meet on Tuesday and have

:40:54.:41:00.

a list. If they did it once or twice with collateral damage, and

:41:00.:41:05.

we have 400 innocent civilians dead and 219 children dead, I'm school

:41:05.:41:09.

about this. I said the same thing about George W Bush and Barack

:41:09.:41:13.

Obama, any state that uses violence to kill innocent people, yes.

:41:13.:41:17.

touched on some of the things that you accept have improved in your

:41:17.:41:22.

country. What about racism itself, has that changed? I think on an

:41:22.:41:25.

individual interpersonal level it is much better. That is a beautiful

:41:25.:41:32.

thing. You all in Britain have the flowering of these wonderful

:41:32.:41:34.

beautiful interpersonal relationships and so forth, but

:41:34.:41:37.

institutional racism is at work in the United States and as here in

:41:38.:41:42.

Britain. We are always talking about race, class, gender and

:41:42.:41:45.

sexual orientation as the way of keeping track of the humanity in

:41:45.:41:49.

people. Would you also accept that some people use race as an excuse,

:41:49.:41:53.

Lauren Hill the other day, the singer who is three months for tax

:41:53.:41:57.

evasion says she's a child of former slaves who had a system

:41:57.:42:03.

imposed on them, and an economicies imposed on her, that is silly, she

:42:03.:42:08.

fiddled her taxes. She's stretching too far, no doubt about that.

:42:08.:42:13.

are we now, how do you see, you are disappointed in the first African-

:42:13.:42:16.

American President, many people think he's a lot better than some

:42:16.:42:19.

of the alternatives? He's better than the right-wing, absolutely, no

:42:19.:42:22.

doubt about that. Where do you think we are now, where do you

:42:22.:42:27.

think we are going now in the United States? In my country which,

:42:27.:42:32.

is both a very precious experiment in democracy an adventure in an

:42:32.:42:35.

empire we are in a very bleak place. We have a choice between a far

:42:35.:42:40.

right party and a centrist neo- liberal party, we don't get to kind

:42:40.:42:44.

of focus, I mentioned poverty before, you have 22% of American

:42:44.:42:54.
:42:54.:42:54.

children living in poverty, 40% are red, 40% of brown and 40 % of white

:42:54.:43:04.

children. 1% owning all the wealth, the top 12% have the top wealth.

:43:04.:43:06.

I'm interested a lot of your conversation has been about class

:43:06.:43:12.

rather than race. But that does not mean in any sense that many racial

:43:12.:43:15.

questions which you have talked about in your lifetime are solved?

:43:15.:43:22.

That is right. For me, brother, it is about how do we try to be decent,

:43:22.:43:26.

honest and have some integrity in a moment in which so many people are

:43:26.:43:31.

suffering? No matter what colour? No matter where they are, we are

:43:31.:43:36.

living in a moment where people are more and more indifferent to forms

:43:36.:43:40.

of criminalty. We have got used to them so we overlook, we become more

:43:40.:43:46.

and more callous to catastrophe, impending ecological cat it is a

:43:46.:43:52.

trough fee, economic catastrophe, wrestling with immigration with our

:43:52.:43:56.

precious eastern European citizens, are they being treated with digty.

:43:56.:44:01.

Neither party in either country are speaking with a level of passion

:44:01.:44:05.

that Martin Luther King junior would have liked. Now a quick look

:44:05.:44:13.

at the front pages. The male has the the net closing in on superrich

:44:13.:44:23.
:44:23.:44:35.

That's all for tonight, I hope you can join Kirsty tomorrow night.

:44:35.:44:45.
:44:45.:45:06.

can join Kirsty tomorrow night. Good night. Good evening, after a

:45:06.:45:11.

very wet and windy day on Thursday, Friday's prospects do look

:45:11.:45:15.

comparatively quieter, it looks to be a breedsy day, rain around, but

:45:15.:45:19.

it shouldn't be as widespread. We are looking mostly at heavier

:45:19.:45:23.

showers running into the west of the UK throughout the day. Perhaps

:45:23.:45:26.

merging into some more persistent rain through the afternoon. Across

:45:26.:45:31.

the south west of England and South Wales. Further north hopefully some

:45:31.:45:35.

spells of sunshine interspersing the outbreaks of heavier rain from

:45:35.:45:38.

time to time. Similar mixture for Northern Ireland, 13 is our

:45:38.:45:43.

forecast high here. For Scotland highs of 12-13. The showers pretty

:45:44.:45:47.

well scattered, no decent amount of sunshine on the kartd. Showers into

:45:47.:45:54.

the North West of England from time to time. In the south-east we

:45:54.:45:57.

should get quite a bit of sunshine through the course of the day.

:45:57.:46:01.

Highs of 16-17. There is a chance that some of those showers from

:46:01.:46:08.

further west could run eastwards carried through on breeze. Through

:46:08.:46:18.
:46:18.:46:20.

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