09/05/2013 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.

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it the Holy Grail of British politics. What to do about


childcare? But it is in confusion tonight. As Nick Clegg appears to


veto coalition policy. Would it really lower childcare costs and


increase pay to child minders as the Government says, or would


increasing the number of children who can be supervised by child


minders make things worse for everyone, especially the children?


We will debate what works and whether the coalition itself needs


some adult supervision. Also tonight, 26 years after a private


detective called Daniel Morgan was murdered, five police


investigations and a collapsed trial later tomorrow the Home


Secretary will announce an inquiry, Daniel's brother wants justice.


made a promise to my brother, I said I'm not going to stop until I


see this exposed. The outspoken US writer and academic, Dr Cornel West


joins us, to discuss race in America, and why he's disappointed


with Barack Obama. And some thought in the best rock


drummer in the world, in one of the world's first super groups, Ginger.


I have never thrown a TV out of a hotel window in my life. I walked


through a hotel glass doors once, but not intentionally.


Good evening, one of the marks of civilisation, you might think, is


how parents, families and ultimately a nation,s after its


children. Childcare in this country is some of the most expensive in


Europe, a worry for millions of parents, it is also the most


tightly regulate. The Government plans to relax the rules by


allowing child minders to take extra children into their groups,


has been blown apart by this programme's revelation that the


Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, is opposing what is thought to be


settled policy. What better way to spend a Thursday afternoon than


gently painting a paving stone. The Busy Bees Nursery in Colchester in


Essex certainly feels busy, 86 little ones spend time here every


week. It is one of the biggest chains in the country, and at the


heart of a coalition spat. Last night on Newsnight we revealed that


Nick Clegg was uncomfortable with the idea of watering down the rules


on adult-to-children ratios in childcare. This morning a


Conservative minister was hauled before the Commons to explain what


on earth was going on. The real cost of childcare, which every


family in this country faces has risen by 77% in real terms since


2003. Childcare inflation is going up by 6% every year. If we don't do


something about this, if we don't reform the supply of childcare we


are going to find that it becomes prohibitive. The scale of public


opposition to her plans has been overwhelming. The Government's own


adviser on childcare Professor Katy Brown has said the ratio plans and


I quote, "make no sense at all". The minister was piling them so


high and wanting to teach them so cheap it was bound to come crashing


down at some point. Back at nursery in Colchester there was an extra


grown-up keeping an eye on the kids this afternoon. And keeping an eye


too on what Conservative ministers were saying. When we consulted on


this idea, the response from experts from nurseries and


crucially from parents was overwhelmingly negative, in other


words they raised a lot of serious concerns. That is why I want to


make sure that we have a careful look at these proposals, don't take


a leap in the dark, if you like, in a way that won't necessarily reduce


costs or raise the quality of childcare. Margaret Randall set up


this chain of nurseries 30 years ago, happily for Nick Clegg she


shares his view. This nursery here is an outstanding nursery. We


wouldn't change ratios just to save costs and I don't think our parents


would be happy if we did either. are going in for a bit of


multicoloured tower building here. You only have to spend half an hour


in a nursery like this to realise how hard it is to keep track of how


many children you have around you, there is four here building their


towers. For the coalition wrestling with the cost of living, being seen


to do something about it, is absolutely crucial. The cost of


living for many young families is ramped up by the cost of childcare.


But what about ratios of staff-to- children, can tinkering with them


make a difference in terms of the care the children are offered, and


can it make a difference in terms of the bills that parents receive


every month? Conservative ministers proudly trumpet how good the staff-


to-children ratios are in England, one adult to look after every four


kids. The proposed shake-up would change it to one to six, the same


as in the netherlands and Ireland. The ratio in France is 1-8.


International comparisons ram home how expensive childcare is. It is


costs on average 27% of family income in the UK. It is a similar


figure in Ireland, but it is just 10% in both the Netherlands and


France. Both sides of the coalition emphasise the idea to change the


staffing ratios is one they have been taking soundings on rather


than firm policy. Conservatives stress no nursery or childminder


would be forced to look after more children, staff would be better


trained. But would changing the rules save parents money? We did


some very quick calculation and we couldn't see where a saving was


going to come from. There would be nothing material to give back to


the parents. Coalition spats can seem arcane outside Westminster,


but not this one for Anita here to collect her son, Barnaby. It is


something we have concerns about, the ratios lower down definitely


should not be increased. I cannot imagine how you could look after


more than two or three two-year- olds, it would be really difficult.


I don't know, I don't work in childcare. But I cannot imagine how


they would cope. For nurseries, child minders and politicians too,


the Holy Grail is convincing parents like Anita that they can


provide top-notch affordable child cautious getting there is proving


rather tricky. We have been trying all day to find


people who work in childcare in this country in favour of the


changes of the ratios from children-to-child minders, while we


did identify one or two, none were able to talk to us tonight. We have


our guest from the early years foundation. Is there any hard


evidence that changing the ratios makes any difference at all?


evidence is that you have to have the right ratios, and you have to


have the right set of qualifications and you have to have


the right environment. It is the combination that actually is about


high quality. That's what's important. So when people say, yes,


but if you can just, ratios don't matter to quality, it is assuming


that ratios are part of a much more complex combination. That is very


dangerous. You accept affordability is a problem for a huge number of


people. Entirely.If you had the choice with not being able to


afford it at all, and therefore being excluded, or going to a


nursery where there is five when you would rather have four children


in a little group, you might settle for something that is not as great


as you think? I think we have to look at it in a much broader way.


First of all Mr Clegg has been brave enough to stand up and listen


to the sector, nobody else has been listening to it. They are


completely coherent on it, there is no real agreement that changing


ratios is a good idea. He has a huge policy driver for social


mobility and the two-year-olds in to nurseries from the 40% poorest


parts of this country is one of the big moves to er they call early


intervention. You capture the very young children very early and help


them to ensure that they succeed in school. Isn't there common ground


on that? Well, because two-year- olds have the biggest variation in


child development. To narrow the gap in two-year-olds you have to


have really good language acquisition. A child from a poorer


family will hear 600 words an hour, a child from a professional family


will hear 2,100. By the time they are three the difference is 30


million words they have heard. If you reduce the ratios you limited


the interaction, you limited chances for one-to-one and strong


empathetic connections. Children under three are developing their


synatic connections at a rate per second. Wouldn't it allow those who


can't afford to go to a group to go to a group? We can. This thing with


France, I paid for myself to go to France and have a good look, France


contributes very significantly to its service. The Government is


trying to do something on the cheap. It is not paying the fair rate. If


you talk about early years as part of education, nobody says how much


an hour in a school costs, there is no issue about it. It is the same


in childcare. If you know what the hourly rate is for childcare, then


pay it. Of course the Government don't, they want to get it in cheap.


That's why parents have to pick up the bigger gap. Do you have a clue


where this policy is tonight? Not at all. But I was very


interested you observed that you couldn't get anyone to speak out


against it. The thing is that really depresses the sector is


there are some very interesting things to. Do the ratio thing has


hijacked a much bigger agenda, the big huge agenda is the social


mobility agenda that would make a significance to -- significant


difference to a huge number of little two-year-olds. Where is the


policy tonight? My sense is that ratios die, it is not official yet.


Because both Liberal Democrats and Conservativess I have spoken to


have said the strength of Nick Clegg's feel something so strong.


thought it was all agreed? They did think that. There has been a lot of


heated exchanges across Westminster and the lobby today about whether


it was in the nature, I do think it is a bit weird that you have a


consultation and you have agreed it before your consultation, none the


less that is Government policy and has been forever, that you agree


your policy and then you consult. That is what they did. Earlier


today my colleague got hold of the letters between Elizabeth Truss and


Nick Clegg, where she says to Nick Clegg and other cabinet ministers,


I need you to sign this off, speak now or forever hold your peace. The


highest profile bit of her reforms are the ratios, this will be the


biggest thing about it and they sign it off. This is last December.


Added to which, before Elizabeth Truss entered politics this is what


she wrote and talked about. When she was promoted to the cabinet


almost a year ago this was clearly what she was going to do. I think


Conservatives feel that this was a long time coming. I think right at


the top of the Government the Prime Minister is very irritated about


this. Irritated, where does that leave the coalition? I think as I


said last night this is setting a precedent. Last night was supposed


to be this good moment for the coalition where you had them


showing, look, we maybe two years away from a general election but we


can still agree enough policy to have a Queen's Speech. We slightly


ruined the show. Because we showed that actually even on things that


are supposedly done and dusted they can be unpicked. That precedent is


what worries Conservatives, Lib Dems are clearly worried enough


about that to be going around and saying hold on a second it wasn't a


done deal, really quibbling on that issue. It has then led on to, I


don't think it is causal, but I do think at moss officerically there


is some thinking, the -- atmosphereically there is some


thinking. I think there will be talks about this not mentioned in


the Queen's Speech, and the Prime Minister has said go for it. He


never says that. There is a new spirit, political journalism we are


always breathless about these things, a new era in the coalition.


But a lot of people feel two years out from the general election that


there is a feeling things won't be so easy to get deals on. What is


Government policy tonight, where does all this leave the coalition,


and does Labour actually have an alternative? Sharon Hodgson speaks


for Labour on children's issues, Clare Perry is an adviser to David


Cameron, and the Lib Dem, Duncan Hames is the parliamentary private


secretary to Nick Clegg. When did Nick Clegg change his mind on it?


He has been in discussions with Government ministers for weeks.


Obviously the Government has been consulting. It is very important


for something as important as who looks after families and children


and how that the Government listens to what carers and families,


parents have to say about this. When did he change his mind on it?


He has been talking to Government ministers for weeks about this


issue. As far as he's concerned this matter hasn't been closed. It


is important that we should listen to what people say. Was his mind


made up in December, he hadn't made up his mind, he had an open mind


and now he has? He thought it was right there was a public


consultation. It is important we do everything we can as a Government


to get it right, and that involves listening to people. Was it a


coincidence he made up his mind on day he was visiting a nursery?


think you will find that I saw him on Tuesday, when he met with


Elizabeth Truss, he obviously had an important meeting with her about


the subject then. So he changed his mind then, I'm trying to find out


when he changed his mind and whether today was a stunt. Was it a


stunt to go to a child's nursery, have that planned and go ahead and


make this splash? This policy matter, this measure has been up


for debate within the Government for weeks. The Government has been


listening to what the public, parents, carers and what the


experts have been saying about it and trying to resolve what is the


best way phwoar. It is one of a whole range -- forward. This is one


of a whole range of measure that is the Government is trying to make


childcare more affordable. This does blow a hole in one of the


biggest ones that Elizabeth Truss cares about? This is a slightly


depression of politicianing studying their navals. The reality


is millions of womens can't go back to work and they want to because it


is difficult to find quality childcare. When we talk about the


ratios, a tiny part of the proposals. I was involved for a


noft for profit nursery on the board for five years, they were


stymied by the racial yo. The problem with the ratios is they are


so prescriptive, there is no way to say you have highly qualified staff


perhaps we could relax the ratios and reinvest in staff. One the


things that didn't come across is these changes are entirely


voluntary, they are up to nurseries and parents to decide. You will


change the ratios? I think changing the ratios is part of a whole range


of measures that gives us better- quality and more affordable


childcare. I would be disappoint if we dropped that. You might have to?


That is coalition politics, unfortunate lo. It is such an


important thing, it is too important thing to play petty


politics with it. Sharon's Government did a lot in this area.


We have struggled for years, we have some of the most expensive and


lowest-quality childcare in the western world, we have to fix that


for parents. When David Cameron says it is the Holy Grail, and he


presumably did think he had a deal on this, and Elizabeth Truss


thought she had a deal in December, you must be irritated? I am and


disappointed. We talked a lot about ratios, we haven't talked at all


about the additional money we are going to give parents about the


affordability problem. All the other structural changes that will


mean child minders who had exited this industry in droves because


they were driven out by red tape will come back and give parents


more flexibility that they need. you regret when Labour was in power


you didn't do enough on this, this is when the problem really became


significant? We inherited such a terrible situation with regard to


childcare and the work force, and we did a lot. And the work force,


the status, the qualifications was raised a lot. But currently we all


recognised we face a childcare crisis. More than a decade to sort


it out? We did do a lot. Everybody usually acknowledges it. Childcare


since 2003 has risen by 77%, costs. Everyone will say that? Why did the


Government one of the first things they did was cut the Childcare Tax


Credit from 80% to 70%. That was immediately taking money off people


that they were using to pay towards their childcare. The subject to


hand is ratios, I think ratios don't have to be discussed in this


whole debate. A lot of the things, some of the things that Liz Truss


is talking about with regard to the qualifications and Professor Katy


Nutbrown we agree with her, but she says the proposals on ratios would


be detrimental and damaging to children's safety and quality.


Again, forgive me, I have huge amount of respect for you


colleagues, there is scaremongering about ratios, we are relaxing them


to French models. We hold them up to Scandinavian and French models


saying it is a better system. is a great deal more state


intervention in the way it is run. You would accept that. They are


strongly run by the state. That is where the money comes from.


particularly deprived two-year-olds. This isn't a shortage of money we


spend twice The OC D average. is not true, that is disputed, it


is less it is �4.5 billion at most. Every child gets vouchers worth


�2,000 a year, there is a lot of money spent and the system is


broken. There has been a dramatic fall in the number of child minders.


I don't think it is chieped child minders with time on their hands,


we don't have enough of them. I support the other issue of


childminder agencies, so people passionate to look after children


who don't want to file tax returns and all that, will concentrate on


doing what they love best. Are you saying the ratios question is now a


dead issue, it is gone and won't go through? We haven't seen the


evidence that it would help either on making childcare more affordable.


Unless you have the evidence you don't have a firm way forward.


have just come out of committee, which is one of the things that


Nick Clegg might have looked at. We had a massively fierce debate in


committee were this was discussed. The lack of evidence, under


scrutiny this policy fell apart. There is no evidence in support.


Where is the evidence that reducing the ratios. All the experts, the


parents, the voice of parents in this should be listened to, as well


as the experts and the professionals, they are all against


it T If we have the tight, again I don't want to talk about ratios, if


we have the tightest ratios in western Europe and we are not


delivering affordable high-quality childcare with those ratios it is


right to look at the industry and say we have to be bold and take


some really big steps to try to deliver better childcare. The point


was raised about the possibility of a vote next week on the European


issue, which may be completely different issue, or it may be that


the irritation that David Cameron is feeling about one thing means


he's saying he's quite relaxed if Conservative members vote against


Government policy? I think again, people watching this will be


depressed to hear that politicians are engaging in tit for tat votes


in the Houses of Parliament. don't think they are. Is that how


you see it, as a tit for tat vote? Potentially. Not on this, parents


are massively against it. We have a childcare system that is broken, we


have very expensive childcare in the country, we have a situation


where the costs have gone up and the ratios need to be reduced.


is the answer, what would Labour do. We are looking at this, we have a


childcare commission. You had 13 years to look at it. We did so much.


Drove up the costs 70% that is quite an achievement. It wasn't our


policies that drove up the costs, there are all sorts of other issues


in play that affect the cost. One of the things was we improved the


standard of the work force, we started improving that, we brought


in the early years professional status, that was massively welcomed.


No disagreement on. That we get back to the point of saying, we


never talk about parents and say what do parents want, which is more


choice in this, we have to take important decisions and try and


educate people, educate everybody as to why this could be the right


thing to do. Still to come:


Legendary drummer Ginger Baker bashes out an interview with Steve


Smith. Tomorrow the Government is expected to announce a public


inquiry into one of the most murky unsolved murders of the past 30


years. In 1987 Daniel Morgan, a private investigator was killed


with an axe, his body found in a south London pub car park. In a


moment we will hear from his brother, Alastair, who has


campaigned through five police investigations and a collapsed


trial for someone to be held accountable. In March 1987 the


private detective, Daniel Morgan, was found dead, an axe in his head,


in the car park of the Golden Lion Pub in south London. His family


believe he was on the verge of exposing police corruption. Ever


since they have campaigned for his killers to be brought to justice.


Five separate police inquiries have failed to do that. Now we


understand the Home Secretary will announce an independent judge-led


inquiry into the case. It was the Leveson Inquiry which brought


Daniel Morgan back into the public sigh. At the inquiry the former


Crimewatch presenter, Jackie Hames alleged collusion between those


suspected of Morgan's murder and the News of the World. In 2002 her


husband had been leading a new inquiry into the Morgan murder and


the couple had been put under surveillance bit paper. There was


various things that happened and you can't, I think any reasonable


person would find it very difficult not to put them together and feel


that there was in some way, there was some collusion between people


at the News of the World and people who were suspected of committing


the murder of Daniel Morgan. I can't put it any clearer than that.


Jonathan Rhys, Daniel Morgan's business partner has been suspected


of the murder, he has always denied it. According to the Morgan family


the two men had fallen out, partly because Rhys had been employing


offduty police officers at their firm. The Metropolitan Police have


since admitted, at the highest ranks, commissioner and Deputy


Assistant Commissioner level that initial inquiry was crippled as a


result of corruption, corruption amongst those investigating and


corruption amongst those who protected the guilty parties.


16 years there were four separate investigations, none came to trial.


The family kept campaigning and then the Metropolitan Police


authority supported them. Finally the police apologised. The case,


particularly in the early stages suffered from the taint of


corruption. That was written by the deputy commissioner in 1986.


Another inquiry began and in 2008 four people were charged over


Daniel Morgan's murder. But the trial collapsed over the use of


Supergrass evidence. Now the family's lawyer hopes the new


inquiry, looking at old police files will show exactly who knew


what and when over more than two decades. The information that is of


interest to this family and the public will lie in those shelves in


those filing cabinets. The exchanges between the senior


management of the Metropolitan Police. The exchanges between the


Metropolitan Police and the Home Office. As the authority governing


the police. The exchanges between the Metropolitan Police and the


Crown Prosecution Service which allowed this matter to remain


unaddressed. Daniel Morgan's family hope that the inquiry can do the


work quickly. Though any report might have to wait until possible


criminal trials, hacking and corruption, are over.


A little earlier I spoke to Daniel Morgan's brother, Alastair.


What do you hope will come from this new inquiry? Well I suppose


more than anything else a recognition of the extent of the


corruption that has gone on in this case. You have had 26 years, five


police inquiries, you have had one court case, which then collapsed.


There must be somewhere in the back of your mind you think this could


be another deadend? My experience of dealing with this case. The more


I find out about it, the worse it gets. If we are going to deal with


corruption in the police force, we have to look at it straight in the


eye. We have to see how it works, the nuts and bolts of it, where it


started what decisions were made et cetera, et cetera. What I want from


this inquiry is to look at this corruption straight in the eye, if


we want do that we can never begin to deal with it. Why do you think


five police inquiries have gotten nowhere? Because of corruption.


Corruption in the beginning, corruption which basically


sabotaged the first inquiry. A refusal to recognise that


corruption, repeatedly, over many, many years. Coming to a point where


evidential opportunities are lost and where the case has been, and is


so weighted down with the failings of previous investigations that it


becomes a legal nightmare to deal W -- With. Would you accept the


police in 2013 are very different than they were in 1986, would you


accept that? No, I don't accept that. You hear that was then and


this is now, I mean if the same thing happened now as happened 26


years ago I would be very fearful that the police would act in


exactly the same way. That the reflex default cover-up mentality


is still there in the British police. You have now a Home


Secretary in Theresa May who appears to be taking this very


seriously, you have also got something else that has changed. We


have had the Hillsborough inquiry and the Leveson Inquiry, we have


had all the stuff about the phone tapping, do you think that helps


you in a way? Yes it has set the scene. I think it has provided the


background to what has been happening in this case and in many


ways the fact that Daniel's murder came up in the Leveson Inquiry


helped us. Once again it brought back into focus this murder and why


would were the News of the World doing what they did in that context.


Do you think you will live to see someone finally put on trial and


convicted for the murder of your brother? I think that is extremely


unlikely at this stage. The police have, I just don't believe so, I


don't believe so. To put place any hope in it I think would be asking


for further disappointment. What keeps you going, 26 years?


remember more than 20 years ago, when I reached a point where I


found it completely unacceptable what was going on, I made a promise


to my brother, I said I'm not going to stop until I see this exposed. I


wanted convictions. As we have seen we haven't had any. But the


corruption I promised myself and my brother that I would expose this


corruption. I think if I hadn't done it, knowing, having seen what


I saw then, I would probably have, I don't know, you know it would


have destroyed me, I think internally to not take any


responsibility for it. Just the fact that the Home Secretary is


going to announce another inquiry, is there a sense within the family


that you have been vindicated after all these years? Yes, there is


finally a sense that somebody outside the police is taking us


seriously. That, yes, there was corruption. We have been trying to


tell you that for a quarter of a century, you know. Yeah, to that


extent we feel vindicated, but there is a way to go. The anatomy


of this corruption needs to be looked at very carefully. Thank you


very much. He was said to be the greatest drummer of his generation,


one of the first-ever super-combos Cream. Now Ginger Baker has told


the story of his own life in a new documentary.


Cream, the first super-group, Eric Clapton on guitar, Jack Bruce on


bass and in the drum chair, Ginger Baker. When I met Eric I went, got


it, it was a rewarding, especially the first year or so, then it


started to go all awry by these bloody things with Marshall written


on them.Am Pli fires, too loud was it? --AmIfyers? Wow, my hearing is


damaged from the last days of Cream. Shall we sewer Rick? Jack was the


main culprit with the volume. A useful drummer and equestian and


polo player, Ginger Baker isn't in the saddle so much these days at 73.


Maybe all that hellraising back in his pomp has taken its toll. In a


new documentary Baker's illustrious former sideman grapples with the


drummer's enigma. I won't be his doctor or psychologist or make a


diagnosis, I can't make a diagnosis of Ginger, when I was driving in


today I thought do I know Ginger well? Do I? I have been with him in


fairly rarified situations which have allowed me to see certain


sides of him, I probably haven't seen him like you have seen him


because I didn't take the effort, the time, the risk to step into his


life. I was only a risk to myself, says our man. Take that time with


the glass door in the New York hotel. Anything that happened was


always me. I have never thrown a TV out of a hotel window in my life. I


walked through the GoramHotel glass doors one day, not intentionally.


But it was, I went to kick the door open and missed the bar and went


through the glass and walked through the glass. Ginger is as


good as gold, unless you push him too far, as the documentary-maker


found out. Ginger Baker hit me in the BEEP nose. I don't like silly


questions, he asked how did it feel, and I go, I don't know. How did it


feel! No. They are a four piece, Ginger Baker, Jack Bruce and Eric


Clapton and Paul on Bass. Now this is what late-night BBC Two ought to


look like. After years of living abroad, GB is back in the UK. And


on the road. Not with this band, but with the unimprovably named


Ginger Baker's Jazz Confusion. thought I had retired. I managed to


outlive my pension, as it were, so I had to go back to work. Watching


that film, one version of your life, somebody else's version of your


life, did it make you feel yeah there were things you regreted


along the way? I have got more regrets than most people, I think.


Enormous regrets of things that I wish had never happened. No I do.


Lots and lots of regrets. I lost everything, I have lost everything


six or seven times in my life. makes you an incredible survivor


doesn't it, you keep coming back? Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people


would have committed suicide several times if they had happen to


them what I have had. When you lose everything, especially when you


have worked for years at it, I trusted the wrong people. You


really should trust the people that are not always pleasant to you. I'm


a mug. If I may ask you this question, how would you like to be


remembered Ginger Baker, when that distant day comes? Drummer.Before


the end of the programme we will have tomorrow's front pages. First,


if the traditional fault lines in Britain have always been defined


one way or another by class, in the United States they are also often


defined by race. You might think in the 21st century with an African-


American President that racial barriers are destroyed or in the


process of eroding. Every so often something catches the attention


where race becomes a persistent sub-plot in American life. It is


mixed with stories of rich and poor. Earlier this week the extraordinary


rescue of young women, apparently held captive for years in Ohio led


the man who helped free them, Charles Ramsey give this account of


what happened. I knew something was wrong when a little pretty white


girl ran into a black man's arms, something is wrong here.


Dr Cornel West is here joining me now. That was just a little thing,


but it really caught my eye, what did you make of that kind of


comment? I think he's speaking from his soul. I think in the United


States we have made tremendous progress in black elites having


access to opportunities, but in terms of the black working-class


and poor, including white, red and yellow poor and working-classes,


they have been devastated by the policies of the last 30 years or so.


The policies, all the policies? goes back to Reaganism, through


Clinton. You financialise at the top, with the oligarchic economy,


greed with profits by any means, and privatisationing public


education and prisons and then you have militarising. The national


security state expands, drones dropping bombs on innocent people,


war crimes, you have got attacks on whistleblowers, Brother Julian


Assange, I was bless today talk to him this week. Bradley Manning,


dealing with trying to tell the truth about secrets and dirty wars.


Those things are clearly mattering deeply to you. But things like you


have got an African-American President, by I suspect you never


thought you would see in your lifetime? I never thought I would.


A lot of white people who voted for him. In 2008 a lot more African-


American voters came out and voted as a percentage than ever before


some things have changed a lot more the better? There is no doubt there


has been progress, my brother, and I was blessed last night to be at


the University of Sheffield we had a magnificent memorial for Malcolm


X, I was invited by Simon goldhill, I had dialogue with Ben Okrey, and


the result is what, unbelievable progress on one level, but Malcolm


X used to say stab folk in the back nine inches and pull it out six


inches and celebrate your progress. We have poverty. I have read the


Institute of Fiscal Studies where you have policies pushing a million


children here in Britain into poverty too. Why are you


disappointed with Obama, you supported him in 2008. You said of


him more recently April 2013 saying he was a black mascot of Wall


Street oligarchs and a puppet of plutocrats. It is trying to be


truthful and biting because I was so disappointed. I did 65 events


for him in my support. My question is what is your relationship to the


legacy of matter then Luther king others and dor day Day. We talked


for four hours, he gave me the idea that he was coming out of the


tradition in a significant way. Martin Luthur king, there was


Vietnam. There was not a word about the highest level of poverty since


196 0tpwh this regard. Are you saying Obama is responsible for war


crimes? I they commit war crimes when they meet on Tuesday and have


a list. If they did it once or twice with collateral damage, and


we have 400 innocent civilians dead and 219 children dead, I'm school


about this. I said the same thing about George W Bush and Barack


Obama, any state that uses violence to kill innocent people, yes.


touched on some of the things that you accept have improved in your


country. What about racism itself, has that changed? I think on an


individual interpersonal level it is much better. That is a beautiful


thing. You all in Britain have the flowering of these wonderful


beautiful interpersonal relationships and so forth, but


institutional racism is at work in the United States and as here in


Britain. We are always talking about race, class, gender and


sexual orientation as the way of keeping track of the humanity in


people. Would you also accept that some people use race as an excuse,


Lauren Hill the other day, the singer who is three months for tax


evasion says she's a child of former slaves who had a system


imposed on them, and an economicies imposed on her, that is silly, she


fiddled her taxes. She's stretching too far, no doubt about that.


are we now, how do you see, you are disappointed in the first African-


American President, many people think he's a lot better than some


of the alternatives? He's better than the right-wing, absolutely, no


doubt about that. Where do you think we are now, where do you


think we are going now in the United States? In my country which,


is both a very precious experiment in democracy an adventure in an


empire we are in a very bleak place. We have a choice between a far


right party and a centrist neo- liberal party, we don't get to kind


of focus, I mentioned poverty before, you have 22% of American


children living in poverty, 40% are red, 40% of brown and 40 % of white


children. 1% owning all the wealth, the top 12% have the top wealth.


I'm interested a lot of your conversation has been about class


rather than race. But that does not mean in any sense that many racial


questions which you have talked about in your lifetime are solved?


That is right. For me, brother, it is about how do we try to be decent,


honest and have some integrity in a moment in which so many people are


suffering? No matter what colour? No matter where they are, we are


living in a moment where people are more and more indifferent to forms


of criminalty. We have got used to them so we overlook, we become more


and more callous to catastrophe, impending ecological cat it is a


trough fee, economic catastrophe, wrestling with immigration with our


precious eastern European citizens, are they being treated with digty.


Neither party in either country are speaking with a level of passion


that Martin Luther King junior would have liked. Now a quick look


at the front pages. The male has the the net closing in on superrich


That's all for tonight, I hope you can join Kirsty tomorrow night.


can join Kirsty tomorrow night. Good night. Good evening, after a


very wet and windy day on Thursday, Friday's prospects do look


comparatively quieter, it looks to be a breedsy day, rain around, but


it shouldn't be as widespread. We are looking mostly at heavier


showers running into the west of the UK throughout the day. Perhaps


merging into some more persistent rain through the afternoon. Across


the south west of England and South Wales. Further north hopefully some


spells of sunshine interspersing the outbreaks of heavier rain from


time to time. Similar mixture for Northern Ireland, 13 is our


forecast high here. For Scotland highs of 12-13. The showers pretty


well scattered, no decent amount of sunshine on the kartd. Showers into


the North West of England from time to time. In the south-east we


should get quite a bit of sunshine through the course of the day.


Highs of 16-17. There is a chance that some of those showers from


further west could run eastwards carried through on breeze. Through


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