14/05/2013 Newsnight

$:/STARTFEED. They start out as ordinary girls, by the time they

are finished they are hollow. Tonight, a harrowing story of

modern day slavery and the darker side of Oxford. Victims tortured by

their abusers, then failed by services that should have protected

them. I was asked to go to guesthouses and to London and

places like that to see other men and I was told it was doing them a

favour. I was still under the illusion that they cared about me

and they were my friends. We ask the director of public prosecutions

what went so badly wrong. As seven Asian men are found guilty of

horrendous abuse, we ask if race or religion played any part in this

crime. Also tonight:

Just how green is pleasant land? Is the EU farming subsidy worth your

�400 a year. Slaying cancer the Angelina way,

with a double mastectomy. Will it change perceptions of feminine

beauty. They are shells of what they should

be. The little girl in there is gone. The details of the Oxford

child sex ring are too horrendous, said the detective in charge, to

report or put on TV. Girls as young as 11, tortured, druged, one forced

to have a DIY abortion. Tonight seven men of Pakistani and north

African heritage have been found guilty of eye watering offences.

The girls were victims of gang rape, yes, but also a culture of a slave

and drug culture. And authorities who appeared to turn away the one

mother who voiced her fears. We ask how this was allowed to continue

six years after the alarm was first raised and question what role if

any race and religion has played. First the victims. If it can happen

in Oxford it can happen anywhere. It is a I city of spires, college

quads and punts. And the jury heard it is also a city of sleazey

backstreets were young girls were systematically groomed, raped and

sold as sex slaves for years at a time. One witness in the trial said

the abuse began when she was around 13. She used to play truant,

hideing from her teachers in the park. She met one of the defendants

and he started taking her to parties to give her drink, drugs,

to have sex with her and then...I Started to go to guesthouses and to

London and places like that to see other men and I was told it was

doing him a favour. I was still under the illusion that they cared

about me and they were my friends. They would text her and she would

go where she was told. Like automoton. I was out almost every

day away from home, sometimes more than one day at a time. Sometimes I

would have breaks where I went home to my mum and I would be just

ending up in hospital because I had so many drugs. Yes, so the majority

of the time I was away having sex with different men. Today seven men

were found guilty on 59 separate charges, including Kamar Jamil,

The two sets of brothers were central. Police interviews show how

Anjum Dogar said this was mistaken identity. That wasn't me. While his

brother, like the Karrars, declined to answer questions. No comment.

Most of their victims had been in care. Both police and social

services apologised for their failure to act before. We are

really sorry it took so long. We have learned a huge amount over

this period of years in terms of how to deal with things. Going back

social workers were doing their utmost to try to protect children.

I don't think we realised quite what we were up against then. We

have learned a lot with the police subsequently. Much depended on the

witnesses. Many thought at the time they were acting like adults,

east Oxford and meet their friends, to act in what they thought were

adult ways. Controlled for years, they were still fearful of their

abusers, police had to work hard to get them to court. They just

corrupt them completely. They start out at 11 or 12 just an ordinary

girl, in our case, by the time they are finished they are hollow. They

are shells of what they should be. The little girl that was in there

is gone. We have had to spend a huge amount of time trying to find

that little girl. The jury heard that some of the victims had gone

to the police in the past. In 2006 a policewoman was cycling past this

mews when she noticed a light on in a building she had thought was

empty. She went in to investigate and inside found a young girl, one

of the witnesses in the court case, with her was an older man. Three

other men arrived with drink, condoms, cash, the officer arrested

all four, but the girl didn't want to press charges. This guesthouse

came up repeatedly in evidence to the court. Many girls said they had

been brought here to be raped. On one occasion the assault was so

violent, so noisy that another guest heard it and reported it to

the police. I could hear a woman getting slapped across next door to

my room. How long ago was this? was around about 20 minutes ago, I

have left and got out of there, I didn't want to hear it. That case

didn't come to court then. We have dealt with these girls in the past.

And dealt with individual offences. We have tried to get them to court

and it is really difficult. They feel the pressure of the men behind

them, they are not in the right position. Some of the defendants

admitted meeting the girls in public places like the bench in the

park near Oxford's main mosque. They denied the charges of rape and

assault. So the girls' evidence, and the coroborating forensic

evidence was crucial. Two years ago, here on Newsnight, Jack Straw

provoked an outcry when he warned of this particular kind of sexual

exploitation. There is a specific problem that involves Pakistani

heritage men, some of some age as well who target vulnerable young

white girls and we need to get the Pakistani community to think much

more clearly about why this is going on and to be more open about

the problem that is are leading to a number of Pakistani heritage men

thinking that it is OK to target white girls in this way. In the

Oxford trial most defendants were of Pakistani origin, part of

Oxford's small, well established community. The case came as a shock.

These are laneous crimes -- henious crimes, they are despicable, and

their very nature has to be secretive. In our culture the shame

play as very important role. If you are caught in public, for example,

even drinking, it brings a great shame. So these things are done

secretly. I can't envisage a situation where people are doing

this kind of thing openly at all. Some of the defendants had grown up

together in the heart of east Oxford. In court one defendant said

"everyone knows everyone", in such a community, did no-one notice the

older men with much younger girls? I go to that mosque and I have not,

never, ever noticed that these men were doing this. I have been in

Oxford for about 25 years. Oxford case is one of a series of

high-profile complex grooming cases prosecuted in the last couple of

years. In some senses it could be a model for the future. I think that

we have just started to open our eyes to the fact that where you

have this kind of insidious long- term grooming and abuse, you have

to change the way you approach investigation and criminal justice

procedures. I'm really, really encouraged and impressed by the way

Kier Starmer has approached it, but also the local police and Peter

Davies at CEOP, they have grasped it and run with it. We have to have

the local police on the ground, our local CPS on the ground also

changing their attitudes. Thames Valley Police, out on the Cowley

Road in Oxford, looking for exploited girls. Today's verdict

showed even if witnesses are vulnerable and inconsistent. Their

evidence can convince juries if it shows a clear pattern of behaviour.

This is an approach supported by the Director of Public Prosecutions.

He's currently working on new guidance for these cases, following

a CPS failure to prosecute Jimmy Savile. Barristers say the law

doesn't need to be changed and judges and lawyers are well used to

the cases now. The problem is not with educating and improving the

bar and the judges and solicitors and defence counsel. It is a

perception that juries have in relation to, if you like, troubled

children, difficult children, naughty children. The bottom line

is they can be kids who go out shoplifting, they can be kids that

take drugs. But that doesn't mean they haven't been victims of quite

serious crimes. So actually they are amongst the most vulnerable

that we have to deal with. problem, barristers say, is more

one of resources. These are complex, expensive cases for both police and

prosecutors, that is why they are rare. Many witnesses said they had

found it difficult to come to court, gruel to go face cross-examination.

That is what was hard for me was the embarrassment of it. But once

you get over that, I'm glad I went to court and I'm glad I stood up

against them. They can't do it any more. I know there is other men,

but these men can't do it any more, I just hope that it helps other

people have the strength to come forward. The Muslim community in

Oxford everyone should learn from the case to protect all children.

The best way of making our children safer is not to focus on a minority

who represent a couple of per cent of perpetrators, but focus on the

95% also. Working collectively with the strategy of safeguarding

children. But it is an uncomfortable fact that so far the

majority of these complex grooming cases have involved Asian, Muslim

men and white British girls. Joining me now is Kier Starmer

Director of Public Prosecution. Nice of you to come in. When you

look at a case like this, what do you see as the problems and the

errors? This is one of a number of cases where historically the wrong

approach has been taken to the assessment of credibility,

assessing whether the victim will be reliable in giving her evidence.

At the heart of that problem is a misunderstanding about

vulnerability. In the past I think police and prosecutors have focused

on vulnerability and seen that as a reason why it is not possible to

prosecute the case. What today's verdict shows is that with the

right approach, with proper case building you can successfully

prosecute these cases. I think the big task for all of us is making

sure that the cultural shift that is needed between as it were, the

old approach and the new approach, is completed. What happened in this

case happens in every case from here on in, that is the really big

task. You talk as if this was something that was just not noticed,

where as we know that people's attention, police attention had

been called to these girls. Why wasn't the man who reported it from

the hotel bedsit listened to. Why wasn't the police officer able to

prosecute? I don't think it is just about listening. I think the floor

in the old approach was this, police and prosecutors looked at

the victim and asked themselves whether they came forward and gave

a coherent and full account first time, whether they were unaffected

by drink or drugs, whether they gone back to the perpetrators, all

those questions yielded answers that led police and prosecutors to

the wrong conclusion that they wouldn't be reliable. It wasn't

simply ignoring it, it was looking at it. It was ignoring, there was a

mother of one of the girls, Girl 3 as she is called, who said she

turned to every conceivable Oxford service who slammed the door in her

face. This was a mother of one of the girls. She had adopted her

daughter and was looking for help. I can only obviously answer for the

investigation and prosecution of the criminal cases. I'm not for a

moment defending the approach that was taken in the past. I think it

is fundamentally wrong. That is why we have set out to change it. But

it is important to understand that, as it were, the usual tools that

the police and prosecutors would use in assessing reliability are

useless in this situation. Do those tools need to change. We have heard

about the gruelling cross- examination, we know that the

defence barrister suggested that Girl 3 had not made a formal

complaint at the time of the attack because she was giving a wholly

false allegation of rape, "I suggest you are telling lie upon

lie because you had been caught by police, naked in a hotel room with

man you were not supposed to be with", is it any wonder you can't

get young girls to give evidence? The approach has to change. Has it

changed? We have done a huge amount of work in the last year. Does that

mean telling defence barristers not to use that kind of language to

vulnerable victims? The changes are with police and prosecutors. Would

you use that language in a court of law, is that normal? I think it is

very important that the court environment is one in which people

feel they can come forward and give their best evidence. It is not

though, is it, it is not a situation, she talked about the

shame she was made to feel. We know that there has been a suicide in

the past once from another woman who gave her own account of a rape.

Something surely should be changing within the courts whilst you are

still in charge? I think it is important for us all to sit back

and look at the criminal justice process and ask ourself the

question whether it does serve these victims in the best possible

way. Are you sitting forward or back? We are looking at the issues

with police and judges and others. We have an adversarial system, in

that system the prosecution puts its best case and the defence,

quite rightly, tests and probes that case. There is a debate to be

had about whether that environment needs to be changed in some way.

I'm absolutely up for having that debate. We do have an adversarial

system n that sense it is the duty of the defence to put those points.

What we are responsible for is ensuring that those people who do

want to come forward feel that they have got the confidence to do so

and we are ensuring that their journey through criminal justice is

as bearable as it can be. Briefly how many more cases are there like

this. You once said there are more likely to be hundreds? Well we're

seeing a number of case like this. We have other cases in the pipeline

we are bringing to court. I have no doubt that there are other victims

out there who have not yet had the confidence to come forward. I hope

that cases like this will give them increased confidence and it is our

job tone sure that when they do come forward they are -- to ensure

that when they do come forward they are treated properly I know there

are more who have not the confidence. We are likely to see

more cases in the future. Joanna Simmons is head of the

Oxfordshire County Council, she joins me now, in a moment we will

speak to a member of the scam Ramadan Foundation, and a member of

Street UK, an organisation that educates and empowers young people,

and we have the Deputy Children's Commissioner. Starting with you

Joanna Simmons, years of failings have been revealed in this case.

are incredibly sorry we haven't stopped the abuse sooner. Our

hearts go to the brave girls giving evidence. We have learned a

tremendous amount over the years and we have taken a huge amount of

action since the case started. Our social workers have been working

alongside the police for the last two years in bringing the case.

Let's get to the words of the mother I mentioned, she said she

had approached every conceivable Oxford service and doors were

slammed in her face. This wasn't a vulnerable girl or a drunken woman

or a drug addict, it was a mother seeking help for her daughter,

because she suspected this was happening? And I think we tried to

support these children and families, clearly we did not do enough. We

are very sorry for that. We have learned a lot. Does that astonish

you that she went to every conceivable service, I'm quoting

her words now and "doors were slammed in her face "? These are

really tricky, difficult situations. We understand more about the

grooming process that we didn't understand seven or eight years ago.

She understood it and went to get help? All I can do is apologise if

we didn't listen or do enough. We are doing huge amounts more now.

There are clearly very big issues in supporting whole families in

this. It is about the children, it is also about parents. One of the

things we are trying to do is raise awareness right across the

comounity. You have been in charge at Oxfordshire since 2005, do you

take responsibility for what happened on your watch? All of us

take enormous responsibility for what happened. This is the worst

thing I have come across in 30 years in local Government. Families

are sitting at home thinking you and your organisation have

seriously let down these girls being raped and raped and traffiked

and sold and drugged, under your watch. They were vulnerable girls

and you were at the heart of those social services, should you resign?

I have asked myself some very hard questions about that. There is

going to be an independent serious case review which will look at the

actions of all the agencies concerned. What is your gut

feeling? My gut feeling is not to resign because my determination is

to do all we can to take action to stamp it out. If the families put

that to you and said they don't feel confident with you in charge

of the services that are meant to be supporting our children, would

you re-think that? Clearly families concerned. What we are doing though

which is really important is trying to make sure that we tackle this

for the future. We have a joint unit with the police, we have

trained 2,500 staff across Oxfordshire. We are raising

awareness for 12,000 schoolchildren. We need to take the action to stamp

this out. These are devious crimes, they are very complicated. We are

absolutely determined, all of us, I'm completely determined that we

do all we can to stop this happening in the future.

I want to come to you now, there has been a lot of focus, as we saw

in the piece, on the race question in this case, is there anything in

that? The findings from our two- year inquiry, which is two-thirds

of the way through now into who are the victims across England? Who are

the perpetrators? Where it is happening and in what way? They are

incontravertable, they are that this appalling crime of sexual

exploitation is taking place across every single community in England.

We have found no exceptions to that. So the verdicts today are in a set

of circumstances that are beyond belief in terms of the levels of

savagry, and the courage of the victims coming forward is quite

extraordinary. You think there is no question of race or cultural

religion in this? We are evidence, our evidence is that people from

every ethnic group are engaging in forms of sexual exploitation. This

is one model and whether there are particular facets to this model

requires further evidence gathering. But there are models of violent

sexual exploitation, including by children on other children taking

place all over the place. I think it is important to recognise as we

have Tia Sharp's step grandfather being sent to jail, and we have all

other cases, they affect all communities. It is important as

members of the Pakistani community to recognise we have a problem.

There are some criminals who think white girls are worthless and think

they can be used and abused in this abhorrent way. I have been

following this kaifplts as a society we have to all take some

responsibility and try to come down to what the real reasons are.

do you think those are? As I have said there are some people who

think white girls are worthless. There are Asian victims who haven't

come forward and give evidence too. It affects all communities. We have

to be very careful in the language we use. We as members of the

Pakistani community have a responsibility to speak out.

Anybody who has followed this trial and the facts of this case, as a

parent, all of us we should be horrified by it and there should be

not hiding place for these evil men in our communities. Would you go

that far? I think it is important to recognise there is a problem in

the Pakistani community. Just as has been said it is a problem which

I think is actually a global problem. I think it is a crisis of

masculinity. What we are having is a profound problem across the whole

of society where men no longer now how to respect and value women. We

find increased sexual violence being perpetrated against women and

children. One of the things that we found in our work with young men

from all backgrounds, black, white, Asian, Muslim, non-Muslim is that

there is this profound disrespect culture. There is a rape culture

that has developed, where rape is seen as something trivial. People

even talk about it in a very trivial sense, "we are going to

rape that girl", "we are going to abuse that girl". What is the root

cause for that change and the lack of masculinity now? I think we have

gone back decades in terms of basic values and human rights around

respecting women. One of the factors, amongst many factors is

the fact that young men now are immerseing themselves in watching

violent, degrading, humiliating pornography, often the genre is

about rape. Young men their primary educator is the street, is the

internet, and these really negative role models involved in organised

crime groups on the street. We are not even engaging young men at all.

If we want to be preventive we have got to get into schools as young as

9, 10, 11. We have found young Patfull earns of young men grooming

girls in school that age T has become a paradigm for these young

men to groom in that way. Do you think you are able to get to these

young men before the Internet does? Well, clearly not. One of the

things we are going to be talking to Government about over the next

few weeks that we actually want much more focused PSHE lessons in

schools, where people feel from within the primary phase that it is

possible to talk about things like pornography. How to build

resilience in young children in terms of what they are looking at

on the Internet. It is very, very important to do that. At the same

time I would say we actually don't know if what's happening today is

worse than in previous eras, simply because the evidence has not been

identified before. So the work that we did in the office of the

Children's Commissioner last year in terms of identifying prif lens

is the first time a baseline has -- prevalence is the first time a

baseline has ever been set. There was a voice in the film that said

it is about shame, it is about covering up particularly within a

Muslim culture, a Pakistani community, and yet the point that

we have just heard is actually that it is everywhere, that actually it

is more acceptable and that rape is being seen as soon as you are two

clicks away. What do you think? have been campaigning against this

since 2006, when I first started I was a lone voice within the

Pakistani community and wider society. Actual lie I think the

catalyst was Rochdale, where people have now started taking this

seriously. When Jack Straw made his comments did you find it offensive

or helpful? I found it offensive, because Jack Straw is former

justice and Home Secretary who did nothing in Government, then he made

it fleeting statement that haornished the whole community. I

take my responsibility very seriously as does my community. I

think it is now time for those agencies that have failed these

children. The catalyst, and I think those agencies have got to take

some responsibility. Quickly, I will ask you this while Kier

Starmer is here, Kier Starmer's tenure will end in October, what

are the most essential, critical things he can do before leaving

office? Happily he has begun to do them. He has made extremely strong

statements about the importance of believing children when they come

forward. Children don't make neat disclosures, that is not how it

works. When information begins to come out from them, people have to

believe them, the police have to believe them, the local authorities

have to believe them. To the credit of Oxfordshire County Council, I

heard what you said earlier, and Thames Valley Police, despite the

failings initially, once they got going they really devoted

tremendous resources to seeing this case through. Thank you very much

all of you. In a moment, will the Angelina-

effect now go as far as the operating table.

Relaxed, as the Government insists it is on all issues Europe,

tomorrow may be an uncomfortable watch as up to 100 Tory MPs sign an

amendment to their Government's own Queen's Speech. Some of the

criticism facing the PM is he refuses to spell out what he's

trying to renegotiate. Tonight we explore one of the key issues, the

Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, every family pays about �400 a year

to subsidise farmers. How do we want it spent and what kind of

countryside do we want for our money. We report on attempts to

make Europe a more and grown and pleasant land. Dawn on the river

Shannon. We are heading for Inish Island, flooded in the summer. As

the common agricultural policy has paid farmers to intensify

production, wildlife elsewhere has been driven out. Here is never

ploughed, never sprayed. So what's the balance of priorities under the

CAP, protecting the environment more? Or supporting farmers and

food production? That debate is under way right now. This is about

how Europe produces food for itself and how we impact on global food

security issues in the future. In my view the biggest challenge for

my generation and decision and policy makers is how to Feed The

World without destroying the planet. We are seeing a billion euro a week

to be paid to farmers to do very little. It is some things, it is

very well, we need to up the ante in what we are asking. This is

public money, it needs to be paid in exchange for delivery of public

goods. This rough pasture is how much of Europe used to work. Across

other parts of Ireland birds and wild flowers have disappeared, as

farming intensified. Anja Murray from BirdWatch tells me some bird

species are down nearly 90%. make a hollow in the ground and the

eggs are tucked in there. If you have a lot of cattle they get

trampled easily. We have got a lot of birds, a lot of biodiversity,

and pollenators pollinating insects. None of this is in intensively

managed grassland. Yet most of the payments using public money are

allocated towards the more intensive low- managed grassland.

Farmers �50 billion a year in subsidies, based mainly on an

historic system of how much food they produce. The European

Commission now wants to shift the balance of subsidies towards

proebgt iting the environment more -- protecting the environment more.

It says farmers should earn 30% of their subsidies by obeying

environmental laws, increasing crop diversity, preserving pasture and

leaving space for wildlife. The plans would mean less support

for intensive food production in places like Ireland. Joe Parlon is

dairy farmer in County Offaly, he agrees with protecting the

environment. He says rewarding the farmers who produce most food is

essential. Production is vitally important for Ireland as a country

as well. Farmers definitely are an endangered species. A lot of those

farmers are not making big profits n fact very small profits. The

problem we have, if you take the funding away from the people that

are producing the food they will go out of business. The CAP has

typically defended farmers' interests. But production supsidies

in the past distorted global markets, led to milk lakes and

butter mountains. The new approach, the called "greening" of the CAP,

aims to deliver what it calls public goods for public money. The

fundamental question here is what constitutes public good? To

environmentalists it means it is safeguarding the soil, air, water,

wildlife. To farmers it means something rather different. It

means keeping producing food in living communities in an

economically viable landscape. You There is a row between the

commission, Governments and MEPs about how far to shift subsidies

away from production towards benefiting the environment. The man

leading negotiations tells us he's supporting production. Some people

would like us to go further, but there is a food production system

through agriculture in the European Union, which in my view is probably

the most sustainable anywhere in the world. And we have also

maintained rural communities in way that other parts of the world

haven't done so. Orthodox Easter Monday in Pissouri village square

in Cyprus. The dances remind locals of their links to the land. Just as

cultural traditions vary from village-to-village throughout the

continent, so do soil types, climates, pharmacies thems. -- farm

systems. The complexity is the nightmare for rule makers in

Brussels. This community for one, can't face the changes the EU is

demanding. Brussels is trying to impose a one-size-fits-all policy

on farmers across the continent, easy to understand and hard to

cheap. You will find all over Europe farmers adapting the system

and moulding it to their purposes and they risk undermining the whole

project. Greening the CAP means looking at water use. Under the

proposals farmers won't receive public supsidies unless they use

water wisely. Farmers Cyprus have pumped so much water from

underground aqua fares, that sea water has been sucked into them.

There is fear the water stores will be wrecked as farmers carry on.

problem in southern Europe, in the Mediterranean region, in Cyprus, is

that we are dealing with peak water situations, where demand exceeds

the available supply. When they are facing this situation we have to

have regulation and water. Measures that are strong maybe not so good

for farming. This is bad news for fautfautfaut. For 45 years he has

been -- Anthony Fauci, for 45 years he has been maximising his crop by

spraying it. It wastes lots of water. But changing it would mean

ripping up his traditional vineyard and starting again with a new

system and a big bank loan. TRANSLATION: If they force us to

change the way we farm and use water, there will be no future for

people like me. I know how to change, but I don't have the money

or the years. For me it is finished. The greening plan is technically

possible. My grandfather, my father, were farmers in this area. Georgios

Theophanous, who farms nearby, has a drip irrigation system. It uses

only a sixth as much water. But the framework is very expensive. He and

his drips would survive the Brussels reform, many others,

particularly older farmers simply won't. Brussels now are pushing to

stop using the underground water completely. This is for us a way

they are pushing us to abandon agriculture in general. All these

farmers will immediately find themselves out of a job. This sort

of pressure from farmers has made it politically impossible for

Cyprus and other Mediterranean countries to back the Brussels

reform on water. In other parts of Europe the greening plans seem to

have missed some key environmental objectives all together. These are

the Cambridgeshire fens, thanks to drainage, wind erosion and

intensive farming, the soil is steadily disappearing. Some of

Europe's soil is literally blowing away. Rickson Vic is Professor of

Soil Erosion at Canfield University. She says the importance of soil

stretches far beyond providing food. Tell me about the soil? There is so

many pressures on soil, we need more fuel and viey rules and get

more out of the joil soils but damaging them less. We need to make

sure they are a habitat for biodiversity, that we can store

carbon and water, very important in droughts and so on. Whilst we have

created a very, very good agricultural soil, it is very

precarious, it is very vulnerable to things like wind erosion.

CAP reform is supposed to be greening the CAP. Is there evidence

it will protect our soil? We have some soil protection already on the

table. But certainly those measures that they are proposing under the

greening of the CAP, I'm not convinced they will protect our

soils any better. So, if it can't be sure to protect wildlife, or

save water, or soil, is the greening reform likely to be green

at all. You can't expect greening mechanisms to solve everything.

Everybody will have to compromise. Some countries are driven by, you

know, the environmental concerns. Others are driven by keeping

farmers on the land and keeping family farms intact. Others are

driven by keeping rural landscape intact. Others are driven because

they have a very strong farming lobby. So what you have is

different players with different priorities all coming to the table

with different requests. The challenge for the Irish presidency

is to try to pull all of that together and try to find

compromises that everybody can live with. Europe lives with an

agricultural subsidy system too complicated for most mortals to

understand. In coming weeks there will be ruthless horse trading as

politicians try to strike the best deal for their own farmers. It is

looking more likely that the commission's plans for the greening

of the CAP will be a much lighter shade of green.

When the world's most beautiful woman admits she has taken a step

that would horrify the average female, what impact is it likely to

have? Angelina Jolie wrote in the New York Times that she chose to

have a double mastectomy, she was carrying the gene that can lead to

breast cancer. It raises the question how far pre-emptive

surgery can and should go. What happens when a superstar casts a

spotlight on cancer? The disease killed Jolie's mother

when she was just 56. Contributing to Jolie's decision to opt for

genetic testing. She was the woman I relate to who had that elegance

and strength through just knowing what was right. Jolie admits the

decision was a tough one. But says the operation means she can now

reassure her children that they won't lose her to breast cancer.

Jolie said she wrote about her own experience to raise awareness of

the risks of genetic breast cancer and to encourage other women to get

tested, knowing they had strong options. Doctors may now see an

Angelina-effect in the waiting room if this A-Lister has as much impact

as usual. With me now is Claire Whittaker, a mother of two who

chose also a double mastectomy two years ago. And Anthony Howell, a

cancer specialist in south Manchester. Tell us how you arrived

at your course of action, Claire, was it a similar story? Yes, it was

very similar. I, my father had died of cancer, my sister had discovered

she had breast cancer. Numerous family members had basically died

of breast cancer. So I was referred to the genetics department and had

a blood test that in November 2010 revealed that I also had the BRACA

2 gene mutations. Did it become a very simple choice for you at that

point? It was, actually. At that time my children are now six and

four, they were aged four and two then. My priority was just to stay

alive and to try to bypass breast cancer and very quickly I

appreciated that although on the outside it can seem a terrifying

prospect to be told you have this gene, what you are actually told is

you have been given the opportunity to not get cancer. To bypass cancer.

Professor Howlett, when you hear Claire's story it sounds like a no-

brainer, is this the only course of action? No it is not the only

course of action. There are two courses of action really. The first

course of action is to get tested. Because I think it is better to

know rather than not to know. And then in our experience at the

Genesis Centre in south Manchester, where we focus on this sort of

issue is half the women decide to have risk-reducing surgery, the

other half elect to have enhanced screening. So we use magnetic

imaging, and mammographey so they are screened every six months.

there any difference in the risk? We are not absolutely sure. We

think probably not. But we are not total he loo sure. So there are

woman who have had really bad family histories, mother died,

sister died of cancer, and then they are screened and then they

find something wrong on the screen. That really tips the balance very

often. I can't stand this any more, I want to have surgery, please.

went from a 90% risk to a 2% risk. It is extraordinary when you put

the statistics on it. You sort of came to meet your disease before it

was there? Yes. I think having a very high probability and being

told that you are so likely to get that, I can only really relate it

being told would you get on an aeroplane knowing that aeroplane

had an 80% chance it was going to crash. I couldn't just get on that

aeroplane. I had to take preventive measures. It was a no-brainer for

me, really. How far do you think we will go 0 in terms of preventive --

in terms of preventive medicine. There are other cancers you could

avoid, you could have your spleen removed, I assume, could you?

don't think it would do much good. You could have your spleen removed.

Not the greatest example, but you can't have your lunges removed to

have a -- lungs removed to prevent lung cancer, you can have your

ovaries and your womb removed. These genes the Barca 1 and 2 genes

are associated with ovarian cancer. Women around the age of 40-45 have

their ovaries removed. Ovarian cancer creeps up on you. Most women

have their ovaries removed in this situation. Only about half have

their breast tissue removed. Claire, when somebody like Angelina Jolie

comes out, is that a game-changer in terms of how people will

perceive this now? Do you think she has an obligation to speak out?

think it felt awful this morning in a sense I can have my mother head

on and think how awful that she has had to go through these decisions.

Then I can also feel I'm so grateful to her, because my

priority is to protect the next generation. To try to support

Genesis Research projects, and to make sure we understand more and

more about these genetic breast cancers. I have two children with a

50% chance that they will also have inherited this gene. So for her to

come out as this amazingingly beautiful lady who has had a

mastectomy. And I think will show the world that a mastectomy isn't

as Carey as it initially sound, you can still be feminine and beautiful

and save your life. I think the important thing is women have to

have choice. You don't have to have mastectomy if you have a faulty

gene. You can elect for increased screening. You have to allow the

woman to do what she want to do. She mustn't been forced by Angelina

down this route. Do you think there is a risk of that? Possibly. It is

the woman's choice. She makes the choice not the doctor. It is her

and her partner. The partner is obviously very important as well.

So we must keep a balance here. But the important thing is to make the

diagnostic tests in the first place. The important thing is to go when

you do have a family history of breast cancer is to go to your GP

and say look I want to be referred to those guys down the road. Thank

you both very much indeed. I really appreciate you coming in. Just time

to take you through a cop of the papers for tomorrow. Before we go.

-- a couple of the papers for tomorrow. Before we go we have that

story on the papers, and the a story about the victims of the sex

gang. The Mail have the story about BP

and Shell investigated over allegations that they have fixed