14/05/2013 Newsnight


14/05/2013

The harrowing story of modern day slavery in Oxford. The common agricultural policy. And Angelina Jolie's double mastectomy. With Emily Maitlis.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 14/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

$:/STARTFEED. They start out as ordinary girls, by the time they

:00:13.:00:16.

are finished they are hollow. Tonight, a harrowing story of

:00:16.:00:21.

modern day slavery and the darker side of Oxford. Victims tortured by

:00:21.:00:25.

their abusers, then failed by services that should have protected

:00:25.:00:30.

them. I was asked to go to guesthouses and to London and

:00:30.:00:35.

places like that to see other men and I was told it was doing them a

:00:35.:00:38.

favour. I was still under the illusion that they cared about me

:00:38.:00:43.

and they were my friends. We ask the director of public prosecutions

:00:43.:00:48.

what went so badly wrong. As seven Asian men are found guilty of

:00:48.:00:52.

horrendous abuse, we ask if race or religion played any part in this

:00:53.:00:57.

crime. Also tonight:

:00:57.:01:03.

Just how green is pleasant land? Is the EU farming subsidy worth your

:01:03.:01:10.

�400 a year. Slaying cancer the Angelina way,

:01:10.:01:14.

with a double mastectomy. Will it change perceptions of feminine

:01:14.:01:22.

beauty. They are shells of what they should

:01:22.:01:25.

be. The little girl in there is gone. The details of the Oxford

:01:25.:01:29.

child sex ring are too horrendous, said the detective in charge, to

:01:29.:01:34.

report or put on TV. Girls as young as 11, tortured, druged, one forced

:01:34.:01:40.

to have a DIY abortion. Tonight seven men of Pakistani and north

:01:40.:01:45.

African heritage have been found guilty of eye watering offences.

:01:45.:01:52.

The girls were victims of gang rape, yes, but also a culture of a slave

:01:52.:01:56.

and drug culture. And authorities who appeared to turn away the one

:01:56.:02:00.

mother who voiced her fears. We ask how this was allowed to continue

:02:00.:02:04.

six years after the alarm was first raised and question what role if

:02:04.:02:14.

any race and religion has played. First the victims. If it can happen

:02:14.:02:22.

in Oxford it can happen anywhere. It is a I city of spires, college

:02:22.:02:28.

quads and punts. And the jury heard it is also a city of sleazey

:02:28.:02:32.

backstreets were young girls were systematically groomed, raped and

:02:32.:02:39.

sold as sex slaves for years at a time. One witness in the trial said

:02:39.:02:44.

the abuse began when she was around 13. She used to play truant,

:02:44.:02:48.

hideing from her teachers in the park. She met one of the defendants

:02:48.:02:53.

and he started taking her to parties to give her drink, drugs,

:02:53.:02:59.

to have sex with her and then...I Started to go to guesthouses and to

:02:59.:03:04.

London and places like that to see other men and I was told it was

:03:04.:03:07.

doing him a favour. I was still under the illusion that they cared

:03:07.:03:12.

about me and they were my friends. They would text her and she would

:03:12.:03:20.

go where she was told. Like automoton. I was out almost every

:03:20.:03:25.

day away from home, sometimes more than one day at a time. Sometimes I

:03:25.:03:29.

would have breaks where I went home to my mum and I would be just

:03:29.:03:36.

ending up in hospital because I had so many drugs. Yes, so the majority

:03:36.:03:43.

of the time I was away having sex with different men. Today seven men

:03:43.:03:49.

were found guilty on 59 separate charges, including Kamar Jamil,

:03:49.:03:59.
:03:59.:04:08.

The two sets of brothers were central. Police interviews show how

:04:08.:04:13.

Anjum Dogar said this was mistaken identity. That wasn't me. While his

:04:13.:04:19.

brother, like the Karrars, declined to answer questions. No comment.

:04:19.:04:23.

Most of their victims had been in care. Both police and social

:04:23.:04:28.

services apologised for their failure to act before. We are

:04:28.:04:32.

really sorry it took so long. We have learned a huge amount over

:04:32.:04:36.

this period of years in terms of how to deal with things. Going back

:04:36.:04:39.

social workers were doing their utmost to try to protect children.

:04:39.:04:42.

I don't think we realised quite what we were up against then. We

:04:42.:04:47.

have learned a lot with the police subsequently. Much depended on the

:04:47.:04:50.

witnesses. Many thought at the time they were acting like adults,

:04:50.:04:56.

east Oxford and meet their friends, to act in what they thought were

:04:56.:05:00.

adult ways. Controlled for years, they were still fearful of their

:05:00.:05:07.

abusers, police had to work hard to get them to court. They just

:05:07.:05:13.

corrupt them completely. They start out at 11 or 12 just an ordinary

:05:13.:05:17.

girl, in our case, by the time they are finished they are hollow. They

:05:17.:05:21.

are shells of what they should be. The little girl that was in there

:05:21.:05:25.

is gone. We have had to spend a huge amount of time trying to find

:05:25.:05:29.

that little girl. The jury heard that some of the victims had gone

:05:29.:05:35.

to the police in the past. In 2006 a policewoman was cycling past this

:05:35.:05:39.

mews when she noticed a light on in a building she had thought was

:05:39.:05:44.

empty. She went in to investigate and inside found a young girl, one

:05:44.:05:49.

of the witnesses in the court case, with her was an older man. Three

:05:49.:05:53.

other men arrived with drink, condoms, cash, the officer arrested

:05:53.:06:01.

all four, but the girl didn't want to press charges. This guesthouse

:06:01.:06:04.

came up repeatedly in evidence to the court. Many girls said they had

:06:04.:06:09.

been brought here to be raped. On one occasion the assault was so

:06:09.:06:11.

violent, so noisy that another guest heard it and reported it to

:06:11.:06:17.

the police. I could hear a woman getting slapped across next door to

:06:17.:06:21.

my room. How long ago was this? was around about 20 minutes ago, I

:06:21.:06:25.

have left and got out of there, I didn't want to hear it. That case

:06:25.:06:31.

didn't come to court then. We have dealt with these girls in the past.

:06:32.:06:35.

And dealt with individual offences. We have tried to get them to court

:06:35.:06:40.

and it is really difficult. They feel the pressure of the men behind

:06:40.:06:46.

them, they are not in the right position. Some of the defendants

:06:46.:06:50.

admitted meeting the girls in public places like the bench in the

:06:50.:06:53.

park near Oxford's main mosque. They denied the charges of rape and

:06:53.:06:58.

assault. So the girls' evidence, and the coroborating forensic

:06:58.:07:04.

evidence was crucial. Two years ago, here on Newsnight, Jack Straw

:07:04.:07:09.

provoked an outcry when he warned of this particular kind of sexual

:07:09.:07:13.

exploitation. There is a specific problem that involves Pakistani

:07:13.:07:20.

heritage men, some of some age as well who target vulnerable young

:07:20.:07:25.

white girls and we need to get the Pakistani community to think much

:07:25.:07:31.

more clearly about why this is going on and to be more open about

:07:31.:07:36.

the problem that is are leading to a number of Pakistani heritage men

:07:36.:07:42.

thinking that it is OK to target white girls in this way. In the

:07:42.:07:47.

Oxford trial most defendants were of Pakistani origin, part of

:07:47.:07:50.

Oxford's small, well established community. The case came as a shock.

:07:50.:08:00.

These are laneous crimes -- henious crimes, they are despicable, and

:08:00.:08:06.

their very nature has to be secretive. In our culture the shame

:08:06.:08:12.

play as very important role. If you are caught in public, for example,

:08:12.:08:19.

even drinking, it brings a great shame. So these things are done

:08:19.:08:25.

secretly. I can't envisage a situation where people are doing

:08:25.:08:31.

this kind of thing openly at all. Some of the defendants had grown up

:08:31.:08:37.

together in the heart of east Oxford. In court one defendant said

:08:37.:08:42.

"everyone knows everyone", in such a community, did no-one notice the

:08:42.:08:48.

older men with much younger girls? I go to that mosque and I have not,

:08:48.:08:54.

never, ever noticed that these men were doing this. I have been in

:08:54.:09:01.

Oxford for about 25 years. Oxford case is one of a series of

:09:01.:09:04.

high-profile complex grooming cases prosecuted in the last couple of

:09:04.:09:08.

years. In some senses it could be a model for the future. I think that

:09:08.:09:12.

we have just started to open our eyes to the fact that where you

:09:12.:09:17.

have this kind of insidious long- term grooming and abuse, you have

:09:17.:09:21.

to change the way you approach investigation and criminal justice

:09:21.:09:26.

procedures. I'm really, really encouraged and impressed by the way

:09:26.:09:31.

Kier Starmer has approached it, but also the local police and Peter

:09:31.:09:35.

Davies at CEOP, they have grasped it and run with it. We have to have

:09:35.:09:39.

the local police on the ground, our local CPS on the ground also

:09:39.:09:45.

changing their attitudes. Thames Valley Police, out on the Cowley

:09:45.:09:50.

Road in Oxford, looking for exploited girls. Today's verdict

:09:50.:09:54.

showed even if witnesses are vulnerable and inconsistent. Their

:09:54.:09:57.

evidence can convince juries if it shows a clear pattern of behaviour.

:09:57.:10:01.

This is an approach supported by the Director of Public Prosecutions.

:10:01.:10:06.

He's currently working on new guidance for these cases, following

:10:06.:10:10.

a CPS failure to prosecute Jimmy Savile. Barristers say the law

:10:10.:10:15.

doesn't need to be changed and judges and lawyers are well used to

:10:15.:10:20.

the cases now. The problem is not with educating and improving the

:10:20.:10:26.

bar and the judges and solicitors and defence counsel. It is a

:10:26.:10:33.

perception that juries have in relation to, if you like, troubled

:10:33.:10:37.

children, difficult children, naughty children. The bottom line

:10:37.:10:41.

is they can be kids who go out shoplifting, they can be kids that

:10:41.:10:47.

take drugs. But that doesn't mean they haven't been victims of quite

:10:47.:10:50.

serious crimes. So actually they are amongst the most vulnerable

:10:50.:10:55.

that we have to deal with. problem, barristers say, is more

:10:55.:11:01.

one of resources. These are complex, expensive cases for both police and

:11:01.:11:05.

prosecutors, that is why they are rare. Many witnesses said they had

:11:05.:11:11.

found it difficult to come to court, gruel to go face cross-examination.

:11:11.:11:15.

That is what was hard for me was the embarrassment of it. But once

:11:15.:11:20.

you get over that, I'm glad I went to court and I'm glad I stood up

:11:20.:11:24.

against them. They can't do it any more. I know there is other men,

:11:24.:11:29.

but these men can't do it any more, I just hope that it helps other

:11:29.:11:34.

people have the strength to come forward. The Muslim community in

:11:34.:11:38.

Oxford everyone should learn from the case to protect all children.

:11:38.:11:46.

The best way of making our children safer is not to focus on a minority

:11:46.:11:52.

who represent a couple of per cent of perpetrators, but focus on the

:11:52.:11:56.

95% also. Working collectively with the strategy of safeguarding

:11:56.:12:02.

children. But it is an uncomfortable fact that so far the

:12:02.:12:08.

majority of these complex grooming cases have involved Asian, Muslim

:12:08.:12:14.

men and white British girls. Joining me now is Kier Starmer

:12:14.:12:17.

Director of Public Prosecution. Nice of you to come in. When you

:12:17.:12:22.

look at a case like this, what do you see as the problems and the

:12:22.:12:27.

errors? This is one of a number of cases where historically the wrong

:12:27.:12:32.

approach has been taken to the assessment of credibility,

:12:32.:12:38.

assessing whether the victim will be reliable in giving her evidence.

:12:38.:12:42.

At the heart of that problem is a misunderstanding about

:12:42.:12:46.

vulnerability. In the past I think police and prosecutors have focused

:12:46.:12:51.

on vulnerability and seen that as a reason why it is not possible to

:12:51.:12:55.

prosecute the case. What today's verdict shows is that with the

:12:56.:12:58.

right approach, with proper case building you can successfully

:12:58.:13:02.

prosecute these cases. I think the big task for all of us is making

:13:02.:13:06.

sure that the cultural shift that is needed between as it were, the

:13:07.:13:10.

old approach and the new approach, is completed. What happened in this

:13:10.:13:14.

case happens in every case from here on in, that is the really big

:13:14.:13:19.

task. You talk as if this was something that was just not noticed,

:13:19.:13:24.

where as we know that people's attention, police attention had

:13:24.:13:29.

been called to these girls. Why wasn't the man who reported it from

:13:29.:13:34.

the hotel bedsit listened to. Why wasn't the police officer able to

:13:34.:13:38.

prosecute? I don't think it is just about listening. I think the floor

:13:38.:13:42.

in the old approach was this, police and prosecutors looked at

:13:42.:13:46.

the victim and asked themselves whether they came forward and gave

:13:46.:13:50.

a coherent and full account first time, whether they were unaffected

:13:50.:13:56.

by drink or drugs, whether they gone back to the perpetrators, all

:13:56.:13:59.

those questions yielded answers that led police and prosecutors to

:13:59.:14:02.

the wrong conclusion that they wouldn't be reliable. It wasn't

:14:02.:14:06.

simply ignoring it, it was looking at it. It was ignoring, there was a

:14:06.:14:11.

mother of one of the girls, Girl 3 as she is called, who said she

:14:11.:14:15.

turned to every conceivable Oxford service who slammed the door in her

:14:15.:14:19.

face. This was a mother of one of the girls. She had adopted her

:14:19.:14:24.

daughter and was looking for help. I can only obviously answer for the

:14:24.:14:28.

investigation and prosecution of the criminal cases. I'm not for a

:14:28.:14:31.

moment defending the approach that was taken in the past. I think it

:14:31.:14:34.

is fundamentally wrong. That is why we have set out to change it. But

:14:34.:14:37.

it is important to understand that, as it were, the usual tools that

:14:37.:14:42.

the police and prosecutors would use in assessing reliability are

:14:42.:14:46.

useless in this situation. Do those tools need to change. We have heard

:14:46.:14:50.

about the gruelling cross- examination, we know that the

:14:50.:14:55.

defence barrister suggested that Girl 3 had not made a formal

:14:55.:14:58.

complaint at the time of the attack because she was giving a wholly

:14:58.:15:02.

false allegation of rape, "I suggest you are telling lie upon

:15:02.:15:06.

lie because you had been caught by police, naked in a hotel room with

:15:06.:15:10.

man you were not supposed to be with", is it any wonder you can't

:15:10.:15:14.

get young girls to give evidence? The approach has to change. Has it

:15:14.:15:18.

changed? We have done a huge amount of work in the last year. Does that

:15:18.:15:22.

mean telling defence barristers not to use that kind of language to

:15:22.:15:25.

vulnerable victims? The changes are with police and prosecutors. Would

:15:25.:15:30.

you use that language in a court of law, is that normal? I think it is

:15:30.:15:32.

very important that the court environment is one in which people

:15:32.:15:35.

feel they can come forward and give their best evidence. It is not

:15:36.:15:39.

though, is it, it is not a situation, she talked about the

:15:39.:15:43.

shame she was made to feel. We know that there has been a suicide in

:15:43.:15:48.

the past once from another woman who gave her own account of a rape.

:15:48.:15:51.

Something surely should be changing within the courts whilst you are

:15:51.:15:54.

still in charge? I think it is important for us all to sit back

:15:54.:15:57.

and look at the criminal justice process and ask ourself the

:15:57.:16:05.

question whether it does serve these victims in the best possible

:16:05.:16:09.

way. Are you sitting forward or back? We are looking at the issues

:16:09.:16:14.

with police and judges and others. We have an adversarial system, in

:16:14.:16:17.

that system the prosecution puts its best case and the defence,

:16:17.:16:21.

quite rightly, tests and probes that case. There is a debate to be

:16:21.:16:23.

had about whether that environment needs to be changed in some way.

:16:24.:16:28.

I'm absolutely up for having that debate. We do have an adversarial

:16:28.:16:31.

system n that sense it is the duty of the defence to put those points.

:16:31.:16:35.

What we are responsible for is ensuring that those people who do

:16:35.:16:40.

want to come forward feel that they have got the confidence to do so

:16:40.:16:44.

and we are ensuring that their journey through criminal justice is

:16:44.:16:48.

as bearable as it can be. Briefly how many more cases are there like

:16:48.:16:53.

this. You once said there are more likely to be hundreds? Well we're

:16:53.:16:56.

seeing a number of case like this. We have other cases in the pipeline

:16:56.:16:59.

we are bringing to court. I have no doubt that there are other victims

:16:59.:17:03.

out there who have not yet had the confidence to come forward. I hope

:17:03.:17:07.

that cases like this will give them increased confidence and it is our

:17:07.:17:12.

job tone sure that when they do come forward they are -- to ensure

:17:12.:17:15.

that when they do come forward they are treated properly I know there

:17:15.:17:19.

are more who have not the confidence. We are likely to see

:17:19.:17:23.

more cases in the future. Joanna Simmons is head of the

:17:23.:17:26.

Oxfordshire County Council, she joins me now, in a moment we will

:17:26.:17:31.

speak to a member of the scam Ramadan Foundation, and a member of

:17:31.:17:35.

Street UK, an organisation that educates and empowers young people,

:17:35.:17:40.

and we have the Deputy Children's Commissioner. Starting with you

:17:40.:17:50.
:17:50.:17:54.

Joanna Simmons, years of failings have been revealed in this case.

:17:54.:17:57.

are incredibly sorry we haven't stopped the abuse sooner. Our

:17:57.:18:01.

hearts go to the brave girls giving evidence. We have learned a

:18:01.:18:04.

tremendous amount over the years and we have taken a huge amount of

:18:04.:18:07.

action since the case started. Our social workers have been working

:18:07.:18:10.

alongside the police for the last two years in bringing the case.

:18:10.:18:14.

Let's get to the words of the mother I mentioned, she said she

:18:14.:18:18.

had approached every conceivable Oxford service and doors were

:18:18.:18:23.

slammed in her face. This wasn't a vulnerable girl or a drunken woman

:18:23.:18:28.

or a drug addict, it was a mother seeking help for her daughter,

:18:29.:18:33.

because she suspected this was happening? And I think we tried to

:18:33.:18:37.

support these children and families, clearly we did not do enough. We

:18:37.:18:40.

are very sorry for that. We have learned a lot. Does that astonish

:18:40.:18:44.

you that she went to every conceivable service, I'm quoting

:18:44.:18:50.

her words now and "doors were slammed in her face "? These are

:18:50.:18:58.

really tricky, difficult situations. We understand more about the

:18:58.:19:01.

grooming process that we didn't understand seven or eight years ago.

:19:01.:19:05.

She understood it and went to get help? All I can do is apologise if

:19:05.:19:08.

we didn't listen or do enough. We are doing huge amounts more now.

:19:08.:19:11.

There are clearly very big issues in supporting whole families in

:19:11.:19:14.

this. It is about the children, it is also about parents. One of the

:19:14.:19:19.

things we are trying to do is raise awareness right across the

:19:19.:19:26.

comounity. You have been in charge at Oxfordshire since 2005, do you

:19:26.:19:30.

take responsibility for what happened on your watch? All of us

:19:30.:19:32.

take enormous responsibility for what happened. This is the worst

:19:32.:19:36.

thing I have come across in 30 years in local Government. Families

:19:36.:19:39.

are sitting at home thinking you and your organisation have

:19:39.:19:42.

seriously let down these girls being raped and raped and traffiked

:19:43.:19:47.

and sold and drugged, under your watch. They were vulnerable girls

:19:47.:19:52.

and you were at the heart of those social services, should you resign?

:19:52.:19:56.

I have asked myself some very hard questions about that. There is

:19:56.:20:00.

going to be an independent serious case review which will look at the

:20:00.:20:05.

actions of all the agencies concerned. What is your gut

:20:05.:20:08.

feeling? My gut feeling is not to resign because my determination is

:20:08.:20:13.

to do all we can to take action to stamp it out. If the families put

:20:13.:20:16.

that to you and said they don't feel confident with you in charge

:20:16.:20:19.

of the services that are meant to be supporting our children, would

:20:19.:20:25.

you re-think that? Clearly families concerned. What we are doing though

:20:25.:20:28.

which is really important is trying to make sure that we tackle this

:20:28.:20:33.

for the future. We have a joint unit with the police, we have

:20:33.:20:36.

trained 2,500 staff across Oxfordshire. We are raising

:20:36.:20:40.

awareness for 12,000 schoolchildren. We need to take the action to stamp

:20:40.:20:44.

this out. These are devious crimes, they are very complicated. We are

:20:44.:20:47.

absolutely determined, all of us, I'm completely determined that we

:20:47.:20:51.

do all we can to stop this happening in the future.

:20:51.:20:55.

I want to come to you now, there has been a lot of focus, as we saw

:20:55.:20:59.

in the piece, on the race question in this case, is there anything in

:20:59.:21:04.

that? The findings from our two- year inquiry, which is two-thirds

:21:04.:21:10.

of the way through now into who are the victims across England? Who are

:21:11.:21:15.

the perpetrators? Where it is happening and in what way? They are

:21:15.:21:18.

incontravertable, they are that this appalling crime of sexual

:21:18.:21:22.

exploitation is taking place across every single community in England.

:21:22.:21:29.

We have found no exceptions to that. So the verdicts today are in a set

:21:29.:21:32.

of circumstances that are beyond belief in terms of the levels of

:21:32.:21:36.

savagry, and the courage of the victims coming forward is quite

:21:36.:21:39.

extraordinary. You think there is no question of race or cultural

:21:39.:21:44.

religion in this? We are evidence, our evidence is that people from

:21:44.:21:49.

every ethnic group are engaging in forms of sexual exploitation. This

:21:49.:21:54.

is one model and whether there are particular facets to this model

:21:54.:22:00.

requires further evidence gathering. But there are models of violent

:22:00.:22:02.

sexual exploitation, including by children on other children taking

:22:03.:22:12.
:22:13.:22:15.

place all over the place. I think it is important to recognise as we

:22:15.:22:21.

have Tia Sharp's step grandfather being sent to jail, and we have all

:22:21.:22:23.

other cases, they affect all communities. It is important as

:22:23.:22:26.

members of the Pakistani community to recognise we have a problem.

:22:26.:22:30.

There are some criminals who think white girls are worthless and think

:22:30.:22:33.

they can be used and abused in this abhorrent way. I have been

:22:33.:22:36.

following this kaifplts as a society we have to all take some

:22:36.:22:40.

responsibility and try to come down to what the real reasons are.

:22:40.:22:50.
:22:50.:22:51.

do you think those are? As I have said there are some people who

:22:51.:22:55.

think white girls are worthless. There are Asian victims who haven't

:22:55.:22:58.

come forward and give evidence too. It affects all communities. We have

:22:58.:23:03.

to be very careful in the language we use. We as members of the

:23:03.:23:05.

Pakistani community have a responsibility to speak out.

:23:05.:23:09.

Anybody who has followed this trial and the facts of this case, as a

:23:09.:23:17.

parent, all of us we should be horrified by it and there should be

:23:17.:23:20.

not hiding place for these evil men in our communities. Would you go

:23:20.:23:25.

that far? I think it is important to recognise there is a problem in

:23:25.:23:28.

the Pakistani community. Just as has been said it is a problem which

:23:28.:23:33.

I think is actually a global problem. I think it is a crisis of

:23:33.:23:36.

masculinity. What we are having is a profound problem across the whole

:23:36.:23:41.

of society where men no longer now how to respect and value women. We

:23:41.:23:44.

find increased sexual violence being perpetrated against women and

:23:44.:23:47.

children. One of the things that we found in our work with young men

:23:47.:23:51.

from all backgrounds, black, white, Asian, Muslim, non-Muslim is that

:23:51.:23:54.

there is this profound disrespect culture. There is a rape culture

:23:54.:23:58.

that has developed, where rape is seen as something trivial. People

:23:58.:24:02.

even talk about it in a very trivial sense, "we are going to

:24:02.:24:07.

rape that girl", "we are going to abuse that girl". What is the root

:24:07.:24:11.

cause for that change and the lack of masculinity now? I think we have

:24:11.:24:14.

gone back decades in terms of basic values and human rights around

:24:14.:24:17.

respecting women. One of the factors, amongst many factors is

:24:17.:24:22.

the fact that young men now are immerseing themselves in watching

:24:22.:24:26.

violent, degrading, humiliating pornography, often the genre is

:24:26.:24:31.

about rape. Young men their primary educator is the street, is the

:24:32.:24:35.

internet, and these really negative role models involved in organised

:24:35.:24:38.

crime groups on the street. We are not even engaging young men at all.

:24:38.:24:43.

If we want to be preventive we have got to get into schools as young as

:24:43.:24:49.

9, 10, 11. We have found young Patfull earns of young men grooming

:24:49.:24:54.

girls in school that age T has become a paradigm for these young

:24:54.:24:58.

men to groom in that way. Do you think you are able to get to these

:24:59.:25:04.

young men before the Internet does? Well, clearly not. One of the

:25:04.:25:07.

things we are going to be talking to Government about over the next

:25:07.:25:13.

few weeks that we actually want much more focused PSHE lessons in

:25:13.:25:16.

schools, where people feel from within the primary phase that it is

:25:16.:25:21.

possible to talk about things like pornography. How to build

:25:21.:25:24.

resilience in young children in terms of what they are looking at

:25:24.:25:28.

on the Internet. It is very, very important to do that. At the same

:25:28.:25:32.

time I would say we actually don't know if what's happening today is

:25:32.:25:36.

worse than in previous eras, simply because the evidence has not been

:25:36.:25:40.

identified before. So the work that we did in the office of the

:25:40.:25:44.

Children's Commissioner last year in terms of identifying prif lens

:25:44.:25:48.

is the first time a baseline has -- prevalence is the first time a

:25:48.:25:51.

baseline has ever been set. There was a voice in the film that said

:25:51.:25:55.

it is about shame, it is about covering up particularly within a

:25:55.:25:58.

Muslim culture, a Pakistani community, and yet the point that

:25:58.:26:02.

we have just heard is actually that it is everywhere, that actually it

:26:02.:26:09.

is more acceptable and that rape is being seen as soon as you are two

:26:10.:26:13.

clicks away. What do you think? have been campaigning against this

:26:13.:26:18.

since 2006, when I first started I was a lone voice within the

:26:18.:26:20.

Pakistani community and wider society. Actual lie I think the

:26:20.:26:24.

catalyst was Rochdale, where people have now started taking this

:26:24.:26:33.

seriously. When Jack Straw made his comments did you find it offensive

:26:33.:26:38.

or helpful? I found it offensive, because Jack Straw is former

:26:38.:26:41.

justice and Home Secretary who did nothing in Government, then he made

:26:41.:26:45.

it fleeting statement that haornished the whole community. I

:26:45.:26:48.

take my responsibility very seriously as does my community. I

:26:48.:26:52.

think it is now time for those agencies that have failed these

:26:52.:26:55.

children. The catalyst, and I think those agencies have got to take

:26:55.:26:59.

some responsibility. Quickly, I will ask you this while Kier

:26:59.:27:03.

Starmer is here, Kier Starmer's tenure will end in October, what

:27:03.:27:06.

are the most essential, critical things he can do before leaving

:27:06.:27:11.

office? Happily he has begun to do them. He has made extremely strong

:27:11.:27:14.

statements about the importance of believing children when they come

:27:14.:27:18.

forward. Children don't make neat disclosures, that is not how it

:27:18.:27:21.

works. When information begins to come out from them, people have to

:27:21.:27:23.

believe them, the police have to believe them, the local authorities

:27:23.:27:27.

have to believe them. To the credit of Oxfordshire County Council, I

:27:27.:27:31.

heard what you said earlier, and Thames Valley Police, despite the

:27:31.:27:35.

failings initially, once they got going they really devoted

:27:35.:27:38.

tremendous resources to seeing this case through. Thank you very much

:27:38.:27:46.

all of you. In a moment, will the Angelina-

:27:46.:27:50.

effect now go as far as the operating table.

:27:50.:27:53.

Relaxed, as the Government insists it is on all issues Europe,

:27:53.:27:59.

tomorrow may be an uncomfortable watch as up to 100 Tory MPs sign an

:27:59.:28:02.

amendment to their Government's own Queen's Speech. Some of the

:28:02.:28:05.

criticism facing the PM is he refuses to spell out what he's

:28:05.:28:10.

trying to renegotiate. Tonight we explore one of the key issues, the

:28:10.:28:14.

Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, every family pays about �400 a year

:28:14.:28:18.

to subsidise farmers. How do we want it spent and what kind of

:28:18.:28:21.

countryside do we want for our money. We report on attempts to

:28:21.:28:31.
:28:31.:28:34.

make Europe a more and grown and pleasant land. Dawn on the river

:28:34.:28:44.
:28:44.:28:47.

Shannon. We are heading for Inish Island, flooded in the summer. As

:28:47.:28:51.

the common agricultural policy has paid farmers to intensify

:28:51.:28:57.

production, wildlife elsewhere has been driven out. Here is never

:28:57.:29:03.

ploughed, never sprayed. So what's the balance of priorities under the

:29:03.:29:07.

CAP, protecting the environment more? Or supporting farmers and

:29:07.:29:14.

food production? That debate is under way right now. This is about

:29:14.:29:20.

how Europe produces food for itself and how we impact on global food

:29:20.:29:24.

security issues in the future. In my view the biggest challenge for

:29:24.:29:28.

my generation and decision and policy makers is how to Feed The

:29:28.:29:31.

World without destroying the planet. We are seeing a billion euro a week

:29:32.:29:35.

to be paid to farmers to do very little. It is some things, it is

:29:35.:29:39.

very well, we need to up the ante in what we are asking. This is

:29:39.:29:42.

public money, it needs to be paid in exchange for delivery of public

:29:42.:29:52.

goods. This rough pasture is how much of Europe used to work. Across

:29:52.:29:57.

other parts of Ireland birds and wild flowers have disappeared, as

:29:57.:30:02.

farming intensified. Anja Murray from BirdWatch tells me some bird

:30:02.:30:06.

species are down nearly 90%. make a hollow in the ground and the

:30:06.:30:11.

eggs are tucked in there. If you have a lot of cattle they get

:30:11.:30:16.

trampled easily. We have got a lot of birds, a lot of biodiversity,

:30:16.:30:22.

and pollenators pollinating insects. None of this is in intensively

:30:22.:30:26.

managed grassland. Yet most of the payments using public money are

:30:26.:30:32.

allocated towards the more intensive low- managed grassland.

:30:32.:30:36.

Farmers �50 billion a year in subsidies, based mainly on an

:30:36.:30:39.

historic system of how much food they produce. The European

:30:39.:30:44.

Commission now wants to shift the balance of subsidies towards

:30:44.:30:47.

proebgt iting the environment more -- protecting the environment more.

:30:47.:30:52.

It says farmers should earn 30% of their subsidies by obeying

:30:52.:30:55.

environmental laws, increasing crop diversity, preserving pasture and

:30:55.:31:05.
:31:05.:31:11.

leaving space for wildlife. The plans would mean less support

:31:12.:31:21.
:31:22.:31:24.

for intensive food production in places like Ireland. Joe Parlon is

:31:24.:31:28.

dairy farmer in County Offaly, he agrees with protecting the

:31:28.:31:32.

environment. He says rewarding the farmers who produce most food is

:31:32.:31:37.

essential. Production is vitally important for Ireland as a country

:31:37.:31:42.

as well. Farmers definitely are an endangered species. A lot of those

:31:42.:31:46.

farmers are not making big profits n fact very small profits. The

:31:46.:31:50.

problem we have, if you take the funding away from the people that

:31:50.:31:58.

are producing the food they will go out of business. The CAP has

:31:58.:32:03.

typically defended farmers' interests. But production supsidies

:32:03.:32:08.

in the past distorted global markets, led to milk lakes and

:32:08.:32:16.

butter mountains. The new approach, the called "greening" of the CAP,

:32:16.:32:20.

aims to deliver what it calls public goods for public money. The

:32:20.:32:24.

fundamental question here is what constitutes public good? To

:32:24.:32:28.

environmentalists it means it is safeguarding the soil, air, water,

:32:28.:32:32.

wildlife. To farmers it means something rather different. It

:32:32.:32:36.

means keeping producing food in living communities in an

:32:36.:32:42.

economically viable landscape. You There is a row between the

:32:42.:32:46.

commission, Governments and MEPs about how far to shift subsidies

:32:46.:32:51.

away from production towards benefiting the environment. The man

:32:52.:32:56.

leading negotiations tells us he's supporting production. Some people

:32:56.:33:01.

would like us to go further, but there is a food production system

:33:01.:33:04.

through agriculture in the European Union, which in my view is probably

:33:04.:33:08.

the most sustainable anywhere in the world. And we have also

:33:08.:33:10.

maintained rural communities in way that other parts of the world

:33:10.:33:19.

haven't done so. Orthodox Easter Monday in Pissouri village square

:33:19.:33:28.

in Cyprus. The dances remind locals of their links to the land. Just as

:33:28.:33:31.

cultural traditions vary from village-to-village throughout the

:33:31.:33:40.

continent, so do soil types, climates, pharmacies thems. -- farm

:33:40.:33:43.

systems. The complexity is the nightmare for rule makers in

:33:44.:33:47.

Brussels. This community for one, can't face the changes the EU is

:33:47.:33:53.

demanding. Brussels is trying to impose a one-size-fits-all policy

:33:53.:34:00.

on farmers across the continent, easy to understand and hard to

:34:00.:34:05.

cheap. You will find all over Europe farmers adapting the system

:34:05.:34:09.

and moulding it to their purposes and they risk undermining the whole

:34:09.:34:15.

project. Greening the CAP means looking at water use. Under the

:34:15.:34:17.

proposals farmers won't receive public supsidies unless they use

:34:17.:34:25.

water wisely. Farmers Cyprus have pumped so much water from

:34:25.:34:30.

underground aqua fares, that sea water has been sucked into them.

:34:30.:34:36.

There is fear the water stores will be wrecked as farmers carry on.

:34:36.:34:41.

problem in southern Europe, in the Mediterranean region, in Cyprus, is

:34:41.:34:46.

that we are dealing with peak water situations, where demand exceeds

:34:46.:34:50.

the available supply. When they are facing this situation we have to

:34:50.:34:55.

have regulation and water. Measures that are strong maybe not so good

:34:55.:35:05.

for farming. This is bad news for fautfautfaut. For 45 years he has

:35:05.:35:11.

been -- Anthony Fauci, for 45 years he has been maximising his crop by

:35:12.:35:17.

spraying it. It wastes lots of water. But changing it would mean

:35:17.:35:21.

ripping up his traditional vineyard and starting again with a new

:35:21.:35:26.

system and a big bank loan. TRANSLATION: If they force us to

:35:26.:35:30.

change the way we farm and use water, there will be no future for

:35:30.:35:34.

people like me. I know how to change, but I don't have the money

:35:34.:35:44.
:35:44.:35:45.

or the years. For me it is finished. The greening plan is technically

:35:45.:35:49.

possible. My grandfather, my father, were farmers in this area. Georgios

:35:49.:35:54.

Theophanous, who farms nearby, has a drip irrigation system. It uses

:35:54.:36:02.

only a sixth as much water. But the framework is very expensive. He and

:36:02.:36:05.

his drips would survive the Brussels reform, many others,

:36:05.:36:11.

particularly older farmers simply won't. Brussels now are pushing to

:36:11.:36:20.

stop using the underground water completely. This is for us a way

:36:20.:36:25.

they are pushing us to abandon agriculture in general. All these

:36:25.:36:33.

farmers will immediately find themselves out of a job. This sort

:36:33.:36:39.

of pressure from farmers has made it politically impossible for

:36:39.:36:42.

Cyprus and other Mediterranean countries to back the Brussels

:36:42.:36:48.

reform on water. In other parts of Europe the greening plans seem to

:36:48.:36:54.

have missed some key environmental objectives all together. These are

:36:54.:36:59.

the Cambridgeshire fens, thanks to drainage, wind erosion and

:36:59.:37:04.

intensive farming, the soil is steadily disappearing. Some of

:37:04.:37:14.
:37:14.:37:14.

Europe's soil is literally blowing away. Rickson Vic is Professor of

:37:14.:37:18.

Soil Erosion at Canfield University. She says the importance of soil

:37:18.:37:24.

stretches far beyond providing food. Tell me about the soil? There is so

:37:24.:37:29.

many pressures on soil, we need more fuel and viey rules and get

:37:29.:37:34.

more out of the joil soils but damaging them less. We need to make

:37:34.:37:38.

sure they are a habitat for biodiversity, that we can store

:37:38.:37:43.

carbon and water, very important in droughts and so on. Whilst we have

:37:43.:37:46.

created a very, very good agricultural soil, it is very

:37:47.:37:50.

precarious, it is very vulnerable to things like wind erosion.

:37:50.:37:54.

CAP reform is supposed to be greening the CAP. Is there evidence

:37:54.:37:57.

it will protect our soil? We have some soil protection already on the

:37:57.:38:01.

table. But certainly those measures that they are proposing under the

:38:01.:38:06.

greening of the CAP, I'm not convinced they will protect our

:38:06.:38:12.

soils any better. So, if it can't be sure to protect wildlife, or

:38:12.:38:17.

save water, or soil, is the greening reform likely to be green

:38:17.:38:21.

at all. You can't expect greening mechanisms to solve everything.

:38:21.:38:25.

Everybody will have to compromise. Some countries are driven by, you

:38:25.:38:29.

know, the environmental concerns. Others are driven by keeping

:38:29.:38:33.

farmers on the land and keeping family farms intact. Others are

:38:33.:38:36.

driven by keeping rural landscape intact. Others are driven because

:38:36.:38:45.

they have a very strong farming lobby. So what you have is

:38:45.:38:48.

different players with different priorities all coming to the table

:38:48.:38:51.

with different requests. The challenge for the Irish presidency

:38:51.:38:55.

is to try to pull all of that together and try to find

:38:55.:39:04.

compromises that everybody can live with. Europe lives with an

:39:04.:39:07.

agricultural subsidy system too complicated for most mortals to

:39:07.:39:13.

understand. In coming weeks there will be ruthless horse trading as

:39:13.:39:17.

politicians try to strike the best deal for their own farmers. It is

:39:17.:39:20.

looking more likely that the commission's plans for the greening

:39:20.:39:29.

of the CAP will be a much lighter shade of green.

:39:29.:39:33.

When the world's most beautiful woman admits she has taken a step

:39:33.:39:37.

that would horrify the average female, what impact is it likely to

:39:37.:39:40.

have? Angelina Jolie wrote in the New York Times that she chose to

:39:40.:39:44.

have a double mastectomy, she was carrying the gene that can lead to

:39:44.:39:47.

breast cancer. It raises the question how far pre-emptive

:39:48.:39:51.

surgery can and should go. What happens when a superstar casts a

:39:51.:40:01.
:40:01.:40:12.

spotlight on cancer? The disease killed Jolie's mother

:40:12.:40:15.

when she was just 56. Contributing to Jolie's decision to opt for

:40:15.:40:25.
:40:25.:40:26.

genetic testing. She was the woman I relate to who had that elegance

:40:26.:40:31.

and strength through just knowing what was right. Jolie admits the

:40:31.:40:35.

decision was a tough one. But says the operation means she can now

:40:35.:40:39.

reassure her children that they won't lose her to breast cancer.

:40:39.:40:43.

Jolie said she wrote about her own experience to raise awareness of

:40:43.:40:48.

the risks of genetic breast cancer and to encourage other women to get

:40:48.:40:53.

tested, knowing they had strong options. Doctors may now see an

:40:53.:40:56.

Angelina-effect in the waiting room if this A-Lister has as much impact

:40:56.:41:06.
:41:06.:41:07.

as usual. With me now is Claire Whittaker, a mother of two who

:41:07.:41:11.

chose also a double mastectomy two years ago. And Anthony Howell, a

:41:11.:41:14.

cancer specialist in south Manchester. Tell us how you arrived

:41:14.:41:20.

at your course of action, Claire, was it a similar story? Yes, it was

:41:20.:41:26.

very similar. I, my father had died of cancer, my sister had discovered

:41:26.:41:30.

she had breast cancer. Numerous family members had basically died

:41:30.:41:35.

of breast cancer. So I was referred to the genetics department and had

:41:35.:41:41.

a blood test that in November 2010 revealed that I also had the BRACA

:41:41.:41:45.

2 gene mutations. Did it become a very simple choice for you at that

:41:45.:41:51.

point? It was, actually. At that time my children are now six and

:41:51.:41:56.

four, they were aged four and two then. My priority was just to stay

:41:56.:42:03.

alive and to try to bypass breast cancer and very quickly I

:42:03.:42:06.

appreciated that although on the outside it can seem a terrifying

:42:06.:42:10.

prospect to be told you have this gene, what you are actually told is

:42:10.:42:17.

you have been given the opportunity to not get cancer. To bypass cancer.

:42:17.:42:21.

Professor Howlett, when you hear Claire's story it sounds like a no-

:42:21.:42:24.

brainer, is this the only course of action? No it is not the only

:42:24.:42:28.

course of action. There are two courses of action really. The first

:42:28.:42:31.

course of action is to get tested. Because I think it is better to

:42:31.:42:38.

know rather than not to know. And then in our experience at the

:42:38.:42:42.

Genesis Centre in south Manchester, where we focus on this sort of

:42:42.:42:50.

issue is half the women decide to have risk-reducing surgery, the

:42:50.:42:56.

other half elect to have enhanced screening. So we use magnetic

:42:56.:43:03.

imaging, and mammographey so they are screened every six months.

:43:03.:43:07.

there any difference in the risk? We are not absolutely sure. We

:43:07.:43:12.

think probably not. But we are not total he loo sure. So there are

:43:12.:43:17.

woman who have had really bad family histories, mother died,

:43:17.:43:20.

sister died of cancer, and then they are screened and then they

:43:20.:43:24.

find something wrong on the screen. That really tips the balance very

:43:24.:43:30.

often. I can't stand this any more, I want to have surgery, please.

:43:30.:43:36.

went from a 90% risk to a 2% risk. It is extraordinary when you put

:43:36.:43:42.

the statistics on it. You sort of came to meet your disease before it

:43:42.:43:46.

was there? Yes. I think having a very high probability and being

:43:46.:43:51.

told that you are so likely to get that, I can only really relate it

:43:51.:43:55.

being told would you get on an aeroplane knowing that aeroplane

:43:55.:43:58.

had an 80% chance it was going to crash. I couldn't just get on that

:43:58.:44:03.

aeroplane. I had to take preventive measures. It was a no-brainer for

:44:03.:44:11.

me, really. How far do you think we will go 0 in terms of preventive --

:44:11.:44:15.

in terms of preventive medicine. There are other cancers you could

:44:15.:44:19.

avoid, you could have your spleen removed, I assume, could you?

:44:19.:44:23.

don't think it would do much good. You could have your spleen removed.

:44:23.:44:30.

Not the greatest example, but you can't have your lunges removed to

:44:30.:44:36.

have a -- lungs removed to prevent lung cancer, you can have your

:44:36.:44:46.
:44:46.:44:46.

ovaries and your womb removed. These genes the Barca 1 and 2 genes

:44:46.:44:54.

are associated with ovarian cancer. Women around the age of 40-45 have

:44:54.:44:58.

their ovaries removed. Ovarian cancer creeps up on you. Most women

:44:58.:45:03.

have their ovaries removed in this situation. Only about half have

:45:03.:45:07.

their breast tissue removed. Claire, when somebody like Angelina Jolie

:45:07.:45:12.

comes out, is that a game-changer in terms of how people will

:45:12.:45:17.

perceive this now? Do you think she has an obligation to speak out?

:45:17.:45:21.

think it felt awful this morning in a sense I can have my mother head

:45:21.:45:26.

on and think how awful that she has had to go through these decisions.

:45:26.:45:29.

Then I can also feel I'm so grateful to her, because my

:45:29.:45:35.

priority is to protect the next generation. To try to support

:45:35.:45:38.

Genesis Research projects, and to make sure we understand more and

:45:38.:45:42.

more about these genetic breast cancers. I have two children with a

:45:42.:45:47.

50% chance that they will also have inherited this gene. So for her to

:45:47.:45:51.

come out as this amazingingly beautiful lady who has had a

:45:51.:45:56.

mastectomy. And I think will show the world that a mastectomy isn't

:45:56.:46:00.

as Carey as it initially sound, you can still be feminine and beautiful

:46:00.:46:04.

and save your life. I think the important thing is women have to

:46:04.:46:07.

have choice. You don't have to have mastectomy if you have a faulty

:46:07.:46:11.

gene. You can elect for increased screening. You have to allow the

:46:11.:46:16.

woman to do what she want to do. She mustn't been forced by Angelina

:46:16.:46:23.

down this route. Do you think there is a risk of that? Possibly. It is

:46:23.:46:28.

the woman's choice. She makes the choice not the doctor. It is her

:46:28.:46:32.

and her partner. The partner is obviously very important as well.

:46:32.:46:37.

So we must keep a balance here. But the important thing is to make the

:46:37.:46:40.

diagnostic tests in the first place. The important thing is to go when

:46:40.:46:44.

you do have a family history of breast cancer is to go to your GP

:46:44.:46:48.

and say look I want to be referred to those guys down the road. Thank

:46:48.:46:51.

you both very much indeed. I really appreciate you coming in. Just time

:46:51.:46:56.

to take you through a cop of the papers for tomorrow. Before we go.

:46:56.:47:01.

-- a couple of the papers for tomorrow. Before we go we have that

:47:01.:47:07.

story on the papers, and the a story about the victims of the sex

:47:07.:47:11.

gang. The Mail have the story about BP

:47:11.:47:14.

and Shell investigated over allegations that they have fixed

:47:14.:47:17.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS