20/05/2013 Newsnight

$:/STARTFEED.. The most powerful politician in Britain didn't even

command the support of half of his own MPs tonight. Almost half the

Conservative parliamentary party tried to wreck a law that would

allow gay people marry one another. They failed but their defiance

showed the chasam between the leadership and the supposed swivel-

eyed loans they command. We have been to check the grassroots.

have spent the day looking Conservative activists here in

Clacton straight in the way, I can report there is not a swiveller

among them. We talk to MPs and party members united in

Conservatism, divided in what that means. What is the point of

spending public money for this sort of thing? The latest British

spaceman is here to tell us what he's going to do for month in space.

Remember the blind Chinese dissident who escaped house arrest

and took refuge in the US embassy last year. He will tell us what

happened next. And they talk of him as one of the

great modern American novelists. He has a new book out after a gap of

30 years, what took so long? didn't realise you were waiting, of

course. So, a bill which would make gay

marriage in England and Wales legal has been supported by the House of

Commons after a deal between the Tory leadership, the Lib Dems and

Labour tonight. But the outcome of the votes tonight is less the issue

than the depth of the split in the Conservative Party. And the state

of David Cameron's leadership. What with this and Europe and his tennis

pal accused of calling the men and women who get the party elected

swivel-eyed loons, the Prime Minister looks increasingly like a

man going mine detecting by stamping his foot on the ground.

Having made such a big deal over the issue of gay marriage, David

Cameron didn't even turn up to speak in the debate today. We will

explain where we are. First of all the vote? The Government got its

way. An amendment that was seen as a grubby deal by some Conservative

oppon nepts of same-sex marriage -- opponents of same-sex marriage got

through with the support of Labour and the Liberal Democrats. Only 70

Conservatives voted for another amendment. Let me give you

background to all of that. This is all very complicated for the simple

reason there was no simple way for defeating the Government on the

main issue. Instead a group of Conservative opponents of same-sex

marriage coalesced around this idea of extending civil partnerships

from same-sex couples to hetrosexual couples. It would have

added millions to the bill and the law would have been defeated. It

was a spirited debate, this is what went on. Whether young or old or

deeply religious or assertively secular. There are real views and

concerns. Depending on polling and the question you ask you come out

with a different figure before origins. The nation is as divided

as the Conservative parliamentary party on this. We picked an issue

we are very much in touch with the nation by showing our division.

What we need to do is ensure at the very least that we properly protect

those who don't agree with the state in the way they want to

redefine marriage. I feel the playing field is not being levelled,

I believe the pendulum is now swinging so far the other way and

there are plenty in the aggressive homosexual community who see this

as but a stepping stone to something even further. What if a

registrar were to turn down an application for someone who got

married on terms of race, what would we think about that. Is it

the position of my honourable friends or any honourable member in

the House that registrar should be free to do so. If it is not, and I

hear a deafening silence, why do we think they should be free to do it

in relation to same-sex marriage, when that same-sex marriage will be

lawful, according to the bill. He's not just got problems with

some of his own backbenchers, but also his grassroots? Indeed, the

problems today we concentrated on are in the chamber. Over the

weekend these disobliging remarks by somebody allegedly close to

David Cameron talking about the grassroots activists being swivel-

eyed loons, such as their interest in things like same-sex marriage.

David Cameron has written an e-mail tonight to try to quieten them down.

I have been in Clacton on sea to try to gauge the opinion of

activists. I found a lot of people disaaffected with the leaderful of

the -- disaffected with the leadership of the Conservative

Party now. In this area the Conservative Party party are

bucking one trend. They are growing. It helps to have an MP unafraid to

challenge the party leadership, even so they are not completely

happy. Yesterday a letter was delivered to thepm signed by 34

local chairman complaining about the policy of same-sex marriage.

But, more than that, accusing the leadership of treating the

membership with contempt. Today back in her Clacton office, it was

very clear her sense of anger and disappointment hadn't diminished

any. I actually do believe that a number of people in central

Government at the moment are totally, totally unaware of what

the real issues are, the things that people are really experiencing.

What their concerns are, the struggle that people have. You know,

and I don't think it helps. This is very much a personal thing, which I

have picked up from lots of members. It doesn't help that our Prime

Minister doesn't seem to learn from some of the feedback he's getting.

When you hear the terms that some allegedly, although they deny it,

use about people like you in private, what do you think about

those? Are you refrbg to the alleged comment that was made.

Referring to the alleged comment made. I didn't want to mention it

but "swivel-eyed loons"! Hopefully I have a sense of humour and I have

been called worse in my time. However, if I believed that to be

true. That they said it? Yes, and if there was any truth in it

whatsoever I would be absolutely appalled. To show me this wasn't

just a personal issue, she introduced me to some Clacton

Conservatives of the same view. The venue very different from the Blue

Boar Smokehouse in Westminster, where the "swivel-eyed" comments

were made. When you hear these comments what do you think of it?

When the people make them is it genuine or is it something said off

the spot, is it something you wish you could take back. You know I

would say that you respect opinion regardless of what it is. People

are entitled to their view. Comments like that are probably not

helping things. But people say them and that's their freedom of speech.

It certainly doesn't help things. think sometimes they are trying to

grab the headlines. I don't think it helps, especially at grassroots.

We are very hard working here. Those sorts of comments aren't very

good. Do you feel like you are in the same party as David Cameron?

Sometimes, yes, sometimes no. It depends how his particular message

on certain issues. The question all political parties wrestle with is

this. How do you hang on to your core voters and still attract

enough new voters to make some progress come election time? The

assumption behind that calculation is often this, that your core

supporters have nowhere else to go. They are loyal, they will keep

voting for you election after election. If that was ever a true

assumption, it is not any more. Ron used to be a Conservative Party

constituency association chairman as well as a councillor. Now he

bats for UKIP. How does the gay marriage issue play with voters

that were Conservative or are Conservative? I think it plays a

really, really big part. Not just because of the gay marriage issue,

but because of the way he did it. He has no mandate to do it. He

didn't get feedback from the party at grassroots or party members. He

said they carried out a survey and that the survey showed that the

majority of people were in favour of it. That just isn't true. And he

knew it. Back at the chippy, the local Conservative chair is clear

what's causing the UKIP vote to swell. It is for the basic reason

that they are still sticking a little bit to their right-wing

attitudes, if I'm frank with you. That is the only possible thing I

can think of. They are outflanking you on the right? I think so. I

think we have probably veered too much to the left. It is not just

here in Clacton that the Tories are facing this challenge. Tonight an

internet poll may worry David Cameron. UKIP on 22%, just two

points behind the Conservatives. We will be talking to some

Conservative MPs shortly, with me now are two Conservative activists,

the councillor Mary Douglas and Binita Mehta. Mary Douglas, you are

in Wiltshire, are you finding UKIP on the march there because of the

issues like gay marriage? Yes, we have just had the local council

elections, there are several Conservatives who would have been

councillors now had it not been UKIP in their patch. In my own

division there was no UKIP candidate, nonetheless there were

several people on the doorstep who were desperate to vote for one and

I believe did so any way. These issues like gay marriage, UKIP

people associate with the Europe question, in or out. It is not just

that? No it is not. The only political party who supports

traditional marriage, as far as I'm aware is UKIP. That is why people

are choosing it. Binita Mehta you were standing in the local council

elections recently, how hot an issue did you find it on the

doorstep? It was a hot issue, and in Watford where I'm from and where

I was standing we had an overwhelming apltd of young people

who were becoming -- overwhelming amount of young people becoming

engaged in Conservative politics because of gay marriage and the

progressive policies that our Prime Minister is putting forward as

leader of our party. So it was a hot issue but not necessarily a

damaging issue? Not for me any way. I got lots of help from the younger

people. Did you get elected? quite. Bear with us a moment or two,

I think we are joined by the Culture Secretary, Maria Miller now.

You could only get this through with the support of Labour and the

Liberal Democrats, you couldn't do it on your own could you? This has

been a free vote bill from the start. And today's vote has shown

that we have support for the bill overwhelming support for the bill

continuing to move forward from all of the major parties. The important

thing. Not all of your own party, of course? The important result of

this bill being voted through tonight is that we actually can

make progress, we can make sure that the bill moves forward and it

isn't mired in discussion around the extension of civil partnerships.

Either here in the Commons or in the Lords, that can be dealt with

separately. That is an upon and constructive way forward. The Prime

Minister told us of this an issue that was absolutely key to his set

of beliefs. Why didn't he speak in the debate? The Prime Minister has

been this evening in the lobbies voting on these important set of

ameantments. It is absolutely right that these things are dealt with my

by the mensers responsible. It was a free vote you told -- And the

ministers responsible. It was a free vote you told you? The reason

it was taken today the decision is because we are the people putting

the legislation in place. We have seen the overwhelming support for

the approach the Government is taking. The approach of having a

review on extending civil partnership, but not allowing it to

delay the implementation of the marriage for same-sex couples.

right, so he's entitled not to speak, is Gerald Howath, a minister

in your Government until last year, is he right to talk about a march

of aggressive homosexuals being behind this proposal? One of the

main principles of the debate is the right of people to have

different views on the future of marriage for same-sex couples. I'm

very clear that I want to see that go forward in the way that is set

out in the bill. Other colleagues may not have the same view. Clearly

there is a need to respect that in the same way that we are respecting

the rights of religious institutions to be able to deal

with this in different ways. Whether that is the Quaker church,

the Jewish free church, the Unitarians, who all support the

idea of extending same-sex marriage and the Church of England in Wales

who don't support that. You have done this at the cost of allowing

part of the nation to see that much of your parliamentary party might,

in their view, be characterised still as the nasty Party? Look you

have seen in the votes tonight an overwhelming support for the

approach that we are taking in this important report stage of the bill.

Not in your own party we haven't? There is strong support within the

Conservative Party and we saw that in the lobbies today. Sorry how

many of your own MPs didn't support this legislation then? I haven't

got the breakdown of that. It is about half isn't it? What I can

tell you is there is strong support in my party. For some of your

party? There is strong support by Labour and liberal issues, that is

why it is a free vote, it is a conscience issue. And we have seen

a House of Commons want to go see the bill move forward. The House of

Commons may as a whole, because with the aid of what was called a

"grubby deal" by one of your own MPs, you were able to force it

through. But the fact is a substantial section of your own

party simply doesn't like this legislation and sees it Asim

tomorrowatic of the fact that your lead -- as symptomatic of the fact

that your leadership is completely out-of-touch with the grassroots?

Many Conservative Party members support the mrb. When we look in

the -- The measure, when we look at the support out in the country as a

whole there is a majority of support more same-sex marriage. We

need to focus on the bill moving forward. And just as with other

conscience bills there will be a difference of opinion. I simply

don't accept this should be whipped which is what you should be

implying. We have two local activists here in the studio, from

your experience Mary, do you recognise the party that Maria

Miller is talking about? No, I'm astonished, I never would have

imagined that I would sit talking to somebody in the heart of

Government in Great Britain and we exported parliamentary democracy

across the whole world and this is a bill that has no mandate, no

manifesto, no green paper, no White Paper, no Queen's Speech on either

side of the year that has gone by. A consultation that was a total

sham, to be frank, which any tinpot dictator would be proud. And

furthermore a committee weighted totally out of proportion to the

proportion of MPs that voted either way on the second reading and a

debate in which the MPs could only talk for four minutes. Four minutes

to talk about the institution of marriage. Deal with that? I think

it is very clear that the people you have in the studio may have a

different view. But what I would say is that. You are supposed to be

in the same part. There is significant support for the measure

in parliament. I was for 20 years a grassroots member of the party

before I became a member of parliament and I understand the

very important and pivitol role that our grassroots activists play.

They are the backbone of the party. I think it is important we

understand that and important we show respect for their views. But

on this issue, in the same way as when the Labour Government put

forward the extension of civil partnerships, back in 2004, there

are a wide range of views, that doesn't stop us from tackling those

issues, tackle them in a way that is right for society. I think

fairness is an important principle that we hold proudly in this

country. I know you have to run along. Thanks for sparing the time

to talk to us. Mary Douglas, you were exhaling in frustration?

have to say what angered me even more than the clear contempt for

the deeply-held views of Conservative supporters, these are

people who have served the party all of their life, faithfully

working on its behalf. And now they are leaving, why are they leaving?

Because they just cannot support something which goes against their

core beliefs. I know in North Wiltshire the chairman of the

association there said people had been leaving for that reason, and

then they had turned to her and said we have to leave, but who will

we vote for now? What about this swivel-eyed loon, do you feel a

swivel-eyed loon? Often, but I can't speak for others. Such

language can be used allegedly, that language can be used by people

near the centre of the party about the people who get the party

elected? Yes, I mean I'm minded that no-one has yet confirmed who

exactly said that, but as I said recently actually whoever said it

what is so sad is that Conservative grassroots were not surprised.

Sadly, that is what we suspected had gone on. You are expressing

business belief you are surprised to hear senior members of your

party. I have heard senior members of your party talking about local

activists in these terms? I have not, and those are but allegations.

I believe that we are a broad church in the Conservative Party. I

unyour viewpoint. There are many Conservative activists and members

and there will be a diversity of views, however my opinion and what

I have seen from Watford and around the country, having been involved

in student politics, overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly the younger

generation are 100% behind this policy. And I understand that your

association chairman has her issues and she has seen that in Wiltshire,

however in Watford what I have seen, and indeed at Warwick University,

people are getting behind the Conservatives for the reason that

they, we are implementing these progressive policies. Let me

interrupt you, we are joined by further MPs now, Tim Loughton,

whose amendment, what happened to your amendment it failed didn't it?

It didn't get passed, just about everyone who spoke in the debate

said they agreed with it. But there was a strange grubby deal done

between the Labour Party front bench and the Government and they

voted against it. Strange things happen in politics. Margot James

how do you feel about a grubby deal going done to get something past

that you agreed with? I did agree with what happened, I happen to

support the civil partnerships for hetrosexual couples. The debate

revealed there was much more work and thinking to be done before it

was going to be implementable. Therefore, I didn't want it to hold

up the progress of a separate matter, which is the equal marriage

for gay people. That's why I was happy to oppose the amendment.

Although in principle I do agree with what is behind it. What do you

feel will be the sentiment in Stourbridge tonight? Well, I think

Stourbridge reflects you know the country. It is a bellwether

constituency. Come on? Seriously. Get to the point. OK I think I have

had quite a lot of support from my stand. I know that there are

members of my association who disagree with me. We have had very

friendly discussions about it. But overall I would say that

Stourbridge reflects the rest of the country, there is a narrow

majority in favour of gay marriage. You feel you are in tune, Tim

Loughton, with the people of Worting and shoreham? Well, I have

had over 800 letters from constituents saying they disagree

with the same-sex matter and 20- something in favour. That is only

800 and something in total. There are real concerns about this bill.

Clearly the will of the House that the bill should go through. I won't

oppose that. But our job as backbenchers was to make sure that

the safeguards which we think are needed in the bill, so that people

can, who have got conscience issues with this bill, can oppose it

without fear of prosecution. As far as you are concerned that is an end

to it, parliament has spoken, your campaign is at answered? Only half

of parliament has spoken. In fact. The House of Commons has spoken the

elect part of it? We haven't finished in the House of Commons,

we will have the third reading and then to the House of Lords which is

a completely different ball game. The particular bit I was pushing

this evening, extending civil partnerships to opposite sex

couples. We don't do that, there is a glaring inequality created in the

bill which is supposed to be about equality. A lot of people agreed

with it and didn't vote with it. It will gain steam in the House of

Lords and beyond. How do you feel about sitting on the same benches

as a man in fact in response to a point of your's, an MP who can talk

about a march of aggressive homosexuals, how do you feel about

that? Not me, I by the way. Clearly and definitely not me. I don't take

offence at that. A lot of words are spoken in the House of Commons and

you know, many a slip of the tongue et cetera. I don't take offence of

that. Sir Gerald is entitled to his view. I think my dear late father

would have agreed with him, you think we can all remain on good

terms. What about the leadership of your party. How come you can get

into a mess like this on an issue as core to many of your supporters'

beliefs. You probably haven't been able to hear them being in

Westminster having legislating to do, but there are people who are

jolly angry in your party about what parliament has done today.

With the assistance of Labour and the Liberal Democrats, unable to do

it by itself your party? appreciate that. But I would like

to say that a lot of Conservative colleagues voted for this bill. In

fact I sense support is growing amongst my colleagues for the bill.

I don't think it is quite fair to say we are only doing it with the

support of other party. There is cross-party support, but there are

a lot of Conservative colleagues who are behind this bill. And I'm

sorry that people, not everybody shares the view, but hopefully,

with the passage of time, people will come to appreciate, as they

have done with civil partnerships, that gay marriage like it has done

in 14 other countries. And the world will not end. Let's go back

to this point of the leadership here, you are quite confident and

comfortable with David Cameron's management of your party are you?

think he did introduce this bill, I was there at conference in

Birmingham in 2011. He didn't bother to speak for it today?

made his views clear, and I do support him as do many others who

are like me, members of the Conservative Party. As I can say

from this panel as someone who is 22 and potentially representing the

younger generation within our party, I think as Margot James said, we do

have many, many people who do believe in this bill and, frankly,

in five to ten years time we will look back on this in the future of

our party and across all the parties, we will look at this and

think what was the big deal. Why didn't we just get on with it?

There is a fellow member of your party, fellow activist just shaking

her head in disbelief? I would like to pursue, if I may, the whole this

isn't a big deal. Because one of the things that concerns me is the

total lack of understanding of the meaning of marriage. This is not

just about equality, it is not even achieving equality, this is about

changing an institution that has to do with the creation and the caring

of children and that has not been mentioned hardly at. Have the

children and the actual purpose of marriage within our society, even

featured in this debate. If you are not gay this will not affect you.

Not so. However I would like to live in a country where my children

can be able to marry whoever they love gay or straight? Marry, we

need to understand what it is to marry. You can carry on arguing

outside. He is expected to do for more the image of retired majors

than anyone since that drunken old fool who lived in Fawlty Towers.

Major Tim Peake was in the army air corp, as of some date in the 2015s

his address will be elsewhere in the universe. He has been chosen

from thousands of hopefuls to live on the International Space Station.

The cost is some �16 million to the taxpayer, money well spent the

Prime Minister claimed today. Le After more than three years of

training with the European Space Agency's astronaut programme, this

former British Army Apache helicopter pilot has been selected

from 8,000 hopefuls for one of the six places to work on the

International Space Station for six month of orbiting the earth. The

selection process included academic testing, fitness assessments and

several interviews. The flight is expected take place in November

2015, when the Russian-made Soyuz rocket will be launched. During the

half year flight, he will happy out a comprehensive science programme

and take part in a European education outreach programme in the

build up to and during his mission. # This is ground control

# To major Tom. But the job of being a spaceman has

recently been redefined, today's announcement has come days after

the return to earth of the Canadian astronaut, Chris Hadfield. His

tweets and videos caught the imagination of a million followers

around the world, and the extraordinary images of the world

from the International Space Station. He spoke to us earlier.

Tim Peake is a great man. I have known him since he was selected. We

come from an aviation test background, we have a natural

kinship, we have sat and played guitar before together. I respect

him. There is a huge burden of responsibility on his shoulders. He

has a lot of work to get ready to go, you look at his background and

the type of guy he is. He will excel. Relatively little is known

about Tim Peake, but we understand he won't be taking his guitar to

space. And he's with us now. Are you taking any instruments at all?

I don't have to, the by star stays on board the station. What --

by star stays on board the station. What will we get for the �16

million? British industry and science to get involved in

microgravity research. As your clip highlighted we get the

inspirational factor for a new generation of engineers to be

inspired by space flight. What is the point? It is a fantastic space

laboratory over and above everything else. We are doing

cutting-edge scientific research. What is it? It is an environment

where you can study micrographty. Here on earth many perameters have

changed throughout the four billion of history, temperature, pressure,

gravity has remained constant, you change that perameter by going into

space strange things happen, we learn and develop new things.

sort of new things? Things like the body's immune system becomes

depleted and viruses become virulant, it is a great place to

look at vaccines, MSRA that kills more people than HIV that was taken

up there recently too. You are talking about things being done,

what will they do with you. What will you do? Personally there are

many human physiologyy experiments done. That is an area we are

particularly strong at which is space biomedicine, we are learning

more about the human body. It benefits the ageing population back

on earth and helps us with our future space exploration for the

longer durations. We send you up there to send someone else up

there? We sent us up there to learn more about ourselves and our

environment. For example in order to progress in space flight we need

to know how the body reacts in microgravity. What will you do?

Science predominantly. What science? Fluid physics, biological

science, medical research, as I have already pointed out. Some of

the impacts on the body in loss of bone density and osteoporosis. We

have an ageing population becoming an increasing burden on the economy,

the more we learn about that and the more we find ways of dealing

with those problems we can have real impact back on earth. Will it

be boring up there? Not at all. If ever you get bored you are in the

wrong job. You are just drifting around, aren't you? The work

schedule is pretty punishing. I had the privilege to communicate with

the space station over the last few years in my job, they work

extremely hard and the research goes on from dawn to dusk. They

seem to be up there nowadays playing guitar, it is not what many

people would recognise as a taxing job? What commander Chris Hadfield

has been doing is purely in his own time. What you don't get to hear

much about is during his increment they set the record for the maximum

amount of science done each week. What you saw was done on a Saturday

afternoon and Sunday. How important is the business of communication?

think you saw from the clip again, he's over a million Twitter

followers, he has had a huge impact globally. It has inspired everybody

to be enthused about our planet, about human space flight. That

effect is unquantifyable. They are just amused, rather than enthused?,

amused to see a bloke in space with a funny moustache singing David

Bowie covers? It is inspiring people. It is inspiring our young

generation to become excited about science, if we get people excited

about science that will, in time, give us a population that will

improve the economy. People will be coming into jobs in science and

engineering. That will have a huge benefit to our population. There is

a practical application in all of this? Most certainly. From the

science, from UK industry. We will have British industry involved in

developing things for the space station and for future space flight

as well. Supposing you managed to enthuse some young people to want

to do what you have done. You were one of 8,000 candidates? I was, yes.

What did you have the other 9,999 didn't have? A very good question,

unfortunately I can't answer it, I'm not privvy to the results.

do you think you night have had? Judging by the selection process

the main element was psychological profiling. When you are spending

significance months working with an international crew in the small

space, you have to be the right character and get on with people.

That was a large element of the selection process. I think that had

a large part to play in why I was selected. You may recall the

international hoo-ha a year ago when the world watched a strange

stand-off between China and the United States over the fate of a

blind dissident who had taken refuge on US soil in Beijing. It

was eventually diffused when the Government there allowed him a visa

to go to America, the dogs barked and the caravan moved on. Since

then by some less than transparent process China has acquired a new

leadership. Time to find out if the new boss looks any different to the

old boss. Chen Guangcheng spent four years in jail, and two under

house arrest, his crime, to use class action lawsuits to defend

farmers in China over land disputes and forced abortions. Last year he

escaped, sought refuge in the US embassy and was finally allowed to

leave for the USA. When I met him today I asked him to describe what

happened under house arrest? TRANSLATION: How shall I put it,

just to think about the combinations of beating, smashing

and robberies, the old fascists are back, and even worse than the

fascists, hooligans to boot. That is a big thing to say. Are you

telling me that the Chinese Communist Party is fascist or worse

than fascist? TRANSLATION: For me they are worse than fascists,

fascists rob you openly, the Chinese Communist Party rob you

openly and make attempts to cover it up. Those words couldn't be said

in public in China. But the new man at the helm, Liu Xianping,

installed last December, has promised reform. Above all to

address the blatant abuses of the law by local officials that Chen

was up against. The west has, if not great hopes of rapid reform, at

least hopes that she -- he will deliver on the greater rule of law.

TRANSLATION: It is a lie, people living in democratic countries know

that the Government represents the people. In China it is completely

different. In China Government is just a tool stolen from and used to

enslave the people. In Chinese law the party committee cannot be taken

to court. The party committee controls public pros and the courts.

It controls all media through the propaganda department. And it has

kidnapped the whole country. Beneath the surface China is racked

with protests about land grabbed, wages unpaid and poor conditions in

factories. Their seething discontent on the Chinese internet,

if you know how to read the euphamisms and understand the code.

Do these forces have any real chance of displacing the Communist

Party and its regime? TRANSLATION: I think it is happening now but in

a developing period from 57,000 mass protests in 2005 to over

220,000 now. We can see the people are wakening up their sense of

their own rights is growing fast. Of course because of the supression

from the Communist Party it will take some time for people to

overcome the fear. But I believe change in China is imminent. It is

the course of history, nothing will stop it. But that's not how things

look to western politicians. They have to do deals with the Chinese

membership that looks and sound permanent. Chen says there should

be an end to closed talks about human rights. TRANSLATION: For me

the west has not been trading ordealing with China but the

Chinese Communist Party. To some extent the west is robbing the

Chinese people, alongside Chinese Communist Party if they do not care

about human rights. But they are concerned only about trade. To its

friends China is seen as making real but hesitant steps towards

democracy, constantly criticised and sometimes hard done by. For one

of the most high-profile victims to accuse them of fascism and the west

of collusion ups the ante. If you have ever had to bullshit your way

through a conversation about modern literature you will be looking at

the titles of the Great American Novel. There is no shortage, Moby

Dick, The Great Gatsby and On The Road and Neverland. A name you hear

less frequency from any of those, a writer called James Salter. The

former Korean War pilot takes a long time to produce a book. He has

just produced his first novel in 30 years at the age of 87. A new

Salter is worth the wait to many. "about 1,000-feet back I pull the

trigger, tracers fall behind him. I cut him off, closing, a few hits in

the right-wing, tremendous joy, at closer range a solid burst in the

fuselage, the flashes are intense, brilliant, something shattering. He

abruptly rolls over and I follow, as if they were leaping from a

wall." Having been to war fies is certain classical definition of

manhood. To have seen war is sometimes a pillar of manhood. I

felt that at the time. I suppose I could look at myself and say, yeah,

well you did that. That's all right. James Salter was an American

fighter ace in the Korean War. In his subsequent career as a writer

he has garn earned enviable views. His masculine concerns about combat

and the sexual life have brought comparisons with Hemmingway. "how

he would behave in action was weighing on his mind that morning,

as they stood looking at the mysterious foreign sea and at the

sky that was already becoming brighter. Courage and fear, and how

you would act under fire, were not among the things you talked about.

You hoped when the time came that you would be able to do as

expected." Salter publishes a new full-length novel this week. His

first for more than 30 years. Why have you kept us waiting on tenter

hooks for so long for another book? I didn't realise you were waiting,

of course! But well I was writing stories. I have been a slow writer

in any case, things have been slow to appear. It is not immemmor yum

or any such thing, but I began to feel an urgency. It was ten years

ago that I felt this urgency so it wasn't that urgent. Salter is

interested in men and women, family life, careers, there is plenty of

sex and drink in his fiction. Fans of Mad Men will enjoy it. When sex

is prohibited, I mean it was inachievable, actually, in a

certain way. Not completely obviously but it was regarded in

the some what different way. you referring to the times when

premarital sex didn't happen? That's certainly one of the things.

I would say that it's quite the ordinary now to live with somebody

for a bit before you get married if you get married. That would be a

very irregular Bohemian and outcast situation some years ago, a couple

of generations ago. What do you think it says about the British

that a literary magazine here has something called the bad sex award!

Have you heard of it? I have heard of it. I'm not saying for a minute

you would qal foi for that, James, I wonder -- qualify for that, James,

I wonder what it says about our culture that we giggle about

writing about sex in novels? Sor om of us do? I don't want -- or some

of us do? I don't want to say you are English, I don't know, I don't

think there would be such a thuing in France.

Managers in the morning there was England, green and unknown beneath

the broken clouds. They drove in from Heathrow in a cab, making a

sound like a sewing machine, with the driver offering occasional

comments in a language difficult to understand. Bowman was struck by

the proud outdated character of the city. Its irregularity and singular

names. The most important thing, its separation from the continent

was not yet known to him." After Salter traded in his flyers'

fatigues for the patched elbows of the author's jacket, he got into

screen writing for a time. His local colour of London comes from

trips to the capital with Robert Redford among others. We hung

around together. Our car broke down going to Heathrow in the tunnel one

time. We had to get out, he was a star then, a big star, with our

suitcases and leg it through the tunnel and leg it through the road

and one thing or another to catch the plane. Here is how this 87-

year-old gets upstairs. James Salter recently took the joy stick

of an F-16 fighter. The guest of the pilot and of the US air force,

which has made his novels required reading for its officers. You know

it comes right back to you, I'm not talking about some phenomenal

expertise or anything. It is like swimming again. Beneath a little

nerve vows naturally, having seen me, he says OK 4g, so I pulled it

up, I'm pulling up, he says hold that up, then I heard him say a

wonderful thing as we were going over the top he said "awesome,

awesome", then we did other stuff. That was my final flight. Is it the

best feeling, is it better than sex James? Come on! You can't be

serious. I have only done one of those two! Well you are ahead of

the game. Before the newspapers for tomorrow,

while we have been on air we have received footage of a tornado that

has devastated parts of Oklahoma. Whole neighbourhoods appear to have

been hit and there are reports that the tornado destroyed an Elementary

School. We don't currently have details of any casualties.

According to the Oklahoma police captain broken power lines and open

gas lines pose a continuing risk in the aftermath of the tornado.

Tomorrow morning's front pages that has happened much to late for any

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 70 seconds

One or two heavy showers in the short-term. Grey in places damp

start to Tuesday morning, through England and Wales. The story is one

of brightening skies, and whilst some southern areas will turn

warmer than we saw during Monday afternoon, further north

temperatures will be four or five degrees down. We saw 22 Celsius in

in part of central Scotland. Tuesday a few showers to the North

West. Northern Ireland and much of Scotland stays dry. The best of

which will be southern areas. Some sunny spells in northern England.

Across the Pennines, peak district, we will see sharper showers develop

during the second half of the day. Mostly staying dry, cool down the

eastern coasts, continuing through eastern Anglia and the far south-

west. At the grease in some other areas, there will be longer spells

of sunshine developing for the afternoon. Always feeling cooler

around northern and western coasts because of the strengthening North

West breeze. That North West breeze will bring changes through Tuesday

and into Wednesday. As I said temperatures already dropping by

Tuesday, by Wednesday dropping further. Increasing risks of

showers. We could see temperatures around 17 in the likes of Cardiff

and Birmingham for the mid-week. Make the most of it in the sunnier