23/05/2013 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

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He was Drummer Lee Rigby of the 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of


Fusiliers. He served in Afghanistan and loaves a two-year-old son Jack.


Yesterday he was horrifically murdered in Woolich. Two men were


arrested yesterday, more held today. We devote the programme to analysis


of this abhorrent crime. What is the extent of home-grown extremism


in the UK? If the Security Services knew about them could they have


been stopped? It is clear that would have been very hard. This is


a new type of political violence, simple letter, and more -- simpler


and more difficult to thwart. is Michael Adebolajo standing


behind a former leader of a banned extremist organisation did this man


help radicalise the murder suspect, we will challenge him. Flowers


today, how will yesterday's killing affect community relations. When


our soldiers are being attacked, it proves we are second class citizens


in our own country. Good evening, the family of


murdered Drummer Lee Rigby, who was 25 from Greater Manchester, tonight


paid tribute to a loving son, husband, father, brother and uncle.


The two men suspected of killing him from known to the Security


Services. One has been identified as 28-year-old Michael Adebolajo


from Romford in Essex, a Muslim convert. Tonight, after two more


arrested today, we ask whether the attack was part of a larger


extremist grouping, or the actions of two called lone wolves. How they


were radicalised and whether this hate crime will impact on race and


communications? First I'm joined by our defence editor. How has the


investigation been progressing? police, interestingly, put out a


statement this afternoon talking in terms of a complex multifaceted


investigation, many lines of inquiry, that kind of thing.


Interesting to see them like many other people, politicians, media,


responding in this standard format. It is very similar language we have


heard after previous incidents. Yet there is something very different


about what has happened here. In a sense it is so obvious what


happened yesterday. It is not a very complex issue. Dozens of


witnesses, CCTV, phones, all the rest of it. In another sense it is


very complicated. Whether those people had any real connections


with others, whether there were people sheltering and inspiring


them to do that is a more complicated question, they are now


trying to get to the bottom of that. We know they were on a list of


suspected people by MI5, the Security Service, that has re-


opened questions, familiar ones again, about whether a change in


the law is needed. We saw the former Home Secretary, John Reid on


the programme, and Jack Straw today saying wider interception of


communications is necessary if the country really wants to be able to


monitor the activities of thousands of people on these lists. A as if


thait -- fascinating thing today is the way people have oscillated


their response to the situation and how to respond to this new type of


violence. For the police, a day of raids, six


properties were targeted, including five in London and one in Lincoln.


They were connected to the two suspects in yesterday's attack.


Michael Adebolajo, seen here in 207 at a demonstration of the Al-


Muhajiroun group, and he had had a regard of activism. One man


convicted of terrorism offences remembers Adebolajo well.


Definitely he has been somebody who has been around and the police know


who he is. I don't really know what they mean by he's a clean skin, or


if he's not a clean skin. It is certainly doesn't seem like


somebody who came out of nowhere. Certainly not a lunatic or hiding


his belief, he has been very outspoken about his concerns and


grievances. Of the other suspect much less has been said. It is


known he was also on police files, and it has been suggested that he


too may be of Nigerian origin. Local people today remembered the


victim of the attack, a rebel of the 2nd Battalion Royal Regiment of


Fusiliers. Drummer Lee Rigby, a popular member of his band and


battalion. He had served in Afghanistan. After an initial order


to the forces not to go out in uniform, the Government recinded


that, urging troops to carry on as normal. We are determined not to be


intimidated into not doing the right thing, whether here in this


country or in Afghanistan or wherever we seek to serve the


nation. So it hasn't facted us in a direct sense, if anything it has


reinforced our desire and determination to do the right thing.


The knowledge that the two attackers were known militants has


caused questions for the security authorities. But an act of violence,


committed by two men with a car and some knives, required little


preparation and any foreknowledge may have been confined to a small


group. Making it very hard to detect in vans. There is no need


for any complex plot, there is no need for e-mail communication,


there is no need for experimenting with explosives, buying material


quietly. You could do this very straight forwardly, very quickly,


without arousing any attention whatsoever. And that made it


incredibly difficult to prevent and incredibly difficult to detect. I'm


not surprised that, if you want, there was a failure to detect it on


those grounds. The only way to detect this was if you had


intelligence about them as individuals, not the nature of the


plot but about them as individuals. For the Prime Minister a difficult


balancing act. Acknowledging the attack, meeting with community


leaders to head off any tensions, while not I a peering to concede


the agenda to men of violence. After an event like this, it is


natural that questions will be asked about what additional steps


can be taken to keep us safe. I will make sure those questions are


asked and answered. But I'm not in favour of knee-jerk responses. The


police have responded with heightened security and activity,


and that is right. But one of the best ways of defeating terrorism is


to go about our normal lives. That is what we shall all do. Some


reactions to Woolich may look like business as usual, but in many ways


it followed a distinct and novel pattern. This was a new kind of


political violence, perhaps more hate crime than terrorism as we


have traditionally defined it. There was a single victim, rather


than mass casualties as there were on 7/7. And the choice of weapons,


knives and a car, as well as the small number of people who would


have needed to know about it in advance, all made it very unlikely


that the plotters would be discovered by the Security Service.


Add to that the dramatic effect of the alleged attacker addressing


people on the scene afterwards and you have a disturbing at the


phenomenon that further -- a disturbing phenomenon that security


chiefs believe is all too easy to copy. There was a simple attack, no


complicated elements, no explosives, no long-term planning, get some


knives, get a car, carry out the attack. Very, very simple, very,


very difficult to stop. The trade- off is you are limited in terms of


what you can do. Given that one of the key elements for most terrorist


attacks is they attract media attention, it has to be seen as a


huge success. The aftermath of this attack is still unfolding. Two


people this afternoon were arrested as part of the inquiry. How the


authorities deal with this, whether it inspires imitators are important


questions for the coming tonights. We are going to discuss those now.


I'm joined in the studio by Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP for Tooting,


and New York by Richard Barrett the former hid of counter terrorism,


and until a few months ago head of the Al-Qaeda monitoring team. First


of all, Sadiq Khan, how chilling was the nature of this attack,


given it was extremely low-tech and not disorganised but apparently


unorganised? Anybody who saw the horrific images last night, the


newspaper pictures today will have been horrified. What is remarkable


is actually previously terrorists would use programmes like Al-


Jazeera, or outlets like that to get their images out there and


their story out and their justification out. What you had


last night was people with mobile phones being asked to record this


and it being over YouTube and some of the TV channels as well last


night, so the methods were simple, but actually the method of


radicalisation is simple as well. Rather than a physical preacher in


the room radicalising you, it is done over the Internet. Richard


Barrett, from your point of view, how different did this appear to be,


this idea that these men were standing there on their ground


waiting to be picked up. They wanted their story to be beamed


around the world. This is new isn't it? Well, I'm not sure how new it


is. The attack, for example, in Boston was rather similar, wasn't


it. I know those guys tried to get away. They hadn't made any real


plan to get away. I think that these unorganised attacks, as you


called them, do have this as a hallmark. That the people are


really looking for visual impact, their objective afterall is to


terrorise, not to kill people. And the horrific killing in Woolich,


but one person, as you say, rather than the victims that there were on


"severn". But the impact -- 7/7. But the impact is the same, they


still managed to get the huge persuasive terrorist impact rather


than just committing some murder somewhere and sneaking down a


backstreet. There is a delay in the line. How hard do you think this


kind of terror, this hate crime is to stop? Given they may not be part


of a group which has been targeted by surveillance regularly? I think


it is incredibly hard to stop. I assume that these people are


probably coming out of a small group, without necessarily any


overseas connections or any other broader connections in the UK.


Which could come to the attention of the Security Services more than


they did. When does a person who expresses radical views, who joins


a radical group flip over to be a violent extremist, somebody who


will commit a crime like this. And to find the signals, the red flags,


as it were, is enormously hard. I imagine that these two people


themselves probably didn't have any intention to commit a crime like


this until relatively recently before they did. I think it is an


amazingly difficult job. Richard Barrett's view, the fact that they


hadn't preplanned it for a long time. We know the Al-Qaeda magazine


talked about the idea of using cars and of course the idea of using


pressure cookers which the Boston killers used. But, we know that


although these suspects were subject to surveillance before, we


know that recently one of the suspects has been talking quite


inflammatory language. Is there a mechanism whereby those pieces of


information can come to the attention of the security forces?


It is early days yet. We don't know all the facts of this case. What we


do know is where historically people could be radicalised in


groups, they were governed spaced and could be inside a mosque.


Nowadays you can be radicalised in your bedroom, or in somebody's


living room. Also the most primitive methods were used, not


ricin, not explosives, not fertilisers, but a knife and a meat


cutter. So a word of caution. What they are trying to target is a way


of life. We have an open society. A member of parliament sees their


constituents, the risks they take there. Stephen Timms was. We have


soldiers who can walk around in their uniforms and be proud to do


so. And police without guns. want all those things, does it have


to be compromised? Those are the values we are proud of and under


attack. Of course we should prevent as many as we can, and the Security


Services do, but some will get through. It is virtually impossible


to stop, we know the suspects were under surveillance, and formerly,


presumably not on the radar now. As we said earlier, that applies to


thousands of people. Is there any way, it is a needle in a haystack,


is it not? It is a bit of a needle in a haystack. It is important to


remember the, not only the lack of resources perhaps, but also the


legal framework within which the Security Services work. Sure, they


must have had some indication that these guys were a problem in order


to note their names. But it is one thing to note their names, it is


quite another thing to take invasive action to track their


movements and so on. Clearly the evidence didn't stack up enough to


be able to cross these legal thresholds that are important. I


think when we are talking about these attacks, what are those guys


trying to do? They are essentially trying to change our society. But I


don't think they are trying to change our society in a way that


enhances our values. I think they are trying to undermine our values.


If our reaction is to put over more surveillance then we are doing that


job for them. Basically it is not about increasing surveillance but


attacking the ideology, ordealing with the ideology, as a Muslim what


is the best way to do that? What has been great over the last 24


hours is everyone has come out and condemned the act and everyone's


sympathy and prayers are with the family of Drummer Lee Rigby. There


are some people who are radicalised by individuals, and your piece


talked about a potential radicaliser. Also the Internet, it


is difficult to curb the information coming there or


stopping people reading literature. We need to make we are a resilient


society, if someone comes out with rhetoric that is inflammatory and


inciting violence they are challenged. Also information is


made available to people who can do something about it, that is a


different thing? One of the things the police are doing is try to


continue to get the confidence of the public, we police by consent.


The Security Services and the police, with the best will in the


world with all the tools need the public to come forward. And that


means the public will have confidence in those in power and


authority. Yesterday's murder has highlighted


the dangers of home-grown terrorism. British Muslims radicalised either


as we were talking about by like- minded extremist groups, so juorns


abroad or in their rooms through social media. Although few in


number they can be extremly threatening, we report on --


extremely threatening, we report on a sub-culture. How dangerous is it?


We are talking about small scale terrorist threats. It is right to


combat that threat to get people to come on board and come forward with


community evidence. I have been taking a look at home-grown


terrorism extremism, it starts with disturbing images from yesterday.


Classic rhetoric, and Mohammed Sadiq Khan film here. The Jihadi


narrative of Islam at war with the west. Yet the London bombings were


almost eight years ago. There has been a sense, perhaps more a hope,


that the appetite for extremism in Britain has been in decline.


Afterall, there has been no successful lethal terrorist attack


on home soil since 2005. But some comments made after the attacks


suggest that Britain may have a very serious problem indeed. This


man advises the Metropolitan Police on community relations, he's a


leader in High Wickham's substantial Muslim community, he


says they were deeply shocked by the attack. We heard a different


variety of views, mainly shock and horror. However within there, there


were some people who were talking in a manner that presented a


justification for this evil act. They are not seeing the picture


that most of us see which is this is a young man with a family.


course almost all British Muslims utterly condemn the attack, though


a small minority seem to disagree. Last night we trawled through


comments on the Internet. Some were One person used a photograph of


Osama Bin Laden as his internet Another tweet we read belittles the


crime. Other messages were more extreme. The Government has a


policy to counter such sentiments, preventing violent extremism,


stopping people to take it to the next stage is crucial, because


small plots are so difficult to uncover. This is one of the


challenges that exists now, because you can have intelligence, you can


have information, but when you have small-scale plots, that are not


necessarily mass casualty, looking to perhaps blow up a plane or a


building, focused on targeted assassinations, it becomes very


hard to monitor that activity. The only way is through the Internet.


Increasingly one is finding that is the platform, the pulpit for


extremism. Some critics suggest leaders inside the Muslim community


itself have been slow to tackle the problem in its midst. And as a


consequence, this latest attack was inevitable. It doesn't surprise me


at all. In fact you will not be surprised to hear that I believe


you will experience far more attacks, because this is, the root


causes have not changed. Neither has the policy changed that leads


to this rage, and neither have the Muslim community been educated by


our leadership as to what peaceful, democratic, political measure they


could take to bring about that change that they so need. Does it


surprise you that eight years ever 7/7, the London bombings, we are


still facing these problems? just now, we are going to face the


same problems eight years further down the line and more. Until we


get to the root causes of this anger, this strong emotion, things


are not going to change. Yesterday's brutal murder has been


profoundly shocking for virtually all Britains. But the fact that a


Tyne -- Britons, but the fact that a tiny minority support such acts


mean there is a ready pool of new recruits. Despite of Government


programmes and a clear community rejection of this nihilism, that


problem persists. Earlier this evening I spoke to


Anjem Choudary, who you saw earlier in the package, a radical Muslim


who once led the now banned extremist group, Al-Muhajiroun. Mr


Choudary says he knows the Woolich suspect, Michael Adebolajo, and he


was standing alongside him in a protest in images that emerged


today. During our discussion he was challenged on his views by the


executive director of the Islamic Society of Britain, and by the Iman


Shams Adduha Muhammad, the director of the college in East London.


Anjem Choudary what was your relationship with Michael


Adebolajo? As an Islamic movement we come across many people, as you


know Al-Muhajiroun has been in existence for 10-15 years. He came


to the demonstrations and attended some of the lectures. He stood next


to you in the demonstrations? come across thousands of people in


our own activities. The Al- Muhajiroun of the most popular


Islamic movement among the youth, especially in the 1990s. Now it is


banned. When did you last speak to him? About two or three years ago.


When you saw him standing there with his bloodied hands and meat


cleavers, were you horrified? were shocked like everybody else.


Horrified? It was a shocking scene, there is no doubt about that.


you abhor what he did? I think what he said explains what he did.


That's a different thing. That's a different thing, I'm really wanting


your reaction, when you saw that image of him were you horrified?


When I saw what took place I was shocked. Let me say one thing, what


he said in the clip, which has been played widely, I think not many


Muslims would disagree with. He was talking about the British foreign


policy. Let's be clear, you are making a very big assertion there,


and I have to say I would disagree that many Muslims? Most Muslims


around the world would agree. to you I find it extraordinary that


you could not say that you abhored the scene of him standing, what he


had done, he had actually killed a man in the street. And you can't


bring yourself? One man killed in the street doesn't equate to the


hundreds of thousands of millions slaughtered by the British,


American foreign policy. Those tortured in Guantanamo Bay, if we


are abhoring where there is the condemnation for the British


foreign policy. This was in Woolich beside a primary school, you


attended that primary school. I'm asking you a simple question, are


you refusing to condemn what happened because you had a hand in


radicalising Michael Adebolajo? radicalisation is calling for


Sharia and expose ex-- exposing the British foreign policy and calling


for radicalisation, I have no problem with that. We are on record


as saying Muslims in Britain have a covenant of security, in return for


their life being protected they can't target the lives of those


with whom they live. The fact is that Anjem Choudary may not have


many follower, but surely what he is saying now and these events show


he's dangerous? I haven't come across a single Muslim and I


interact with a lot of them who agrees with what happened and would


agree with that narrative. I think although he refuses to abhor, in


his own way he said that what has happened is unjustified. If it is


unjustified why can't you just say it is wrong. You said if we're here


on a covenant, right, for our safety and our security, and if


based on that same narrative it is incorrect to go out there and kill


someone. An innocent person. There is no condemnation of the cause of


that. If we deal with the cause which is the occupation of Muslim


land. Anjem Choudary would you please, I would like you. Why is it


not possible. Be polite for a moment. Why is it not possible for


us as Muslims, who are people who follow a path that is holistic,


without focusing on one particular aspect that deals with Jihad et


cetera, why is it we cannot condemn what happened here, right, and at


the same time air our views with regards to what goes on in terms of


foreign policy. What do you do with people who have been radicalised by


Anjem Choudary coming to your mosque, what happens? To be honest


people of that particular mind set, they tend to stick to themselves,


and they don't want to speak to anybody. There is a notion among


themselves, because of the way they think that everybody else is a


hypocrite because everybody else doesn't go around openly condemning.


Speak and verify with me. That is not true. From your point of view,


what impact do you think the small minority of people who hold Anjem


Choudary's views have, is the impact disproportionate to their


number? I just want to give our condolences and thoughts to Lee


Rigby's family. Seeing his photo today has brought it home. A very


smart young man in his uniform and how horrific it was he was murdered


like that in cold blood. Our thoughts go to his family and the


people who had to witness something as horrific as that. Everyone has


been shocked and outraged about what has happened. Condmation from


every Muslim organisation. What damage though. This kind of


rhetoric has no place in this country. And the vast majority of


people would say that, the majority of people have stood together today


from all faiths, all background, Muslims and not, and said you will


not divide this country. Anjem Choudary, you seem not, if I'm


right to like Britain very much, and there are people of all creeds


and none who wish that you would just go and take your views with


you. Why do you stay? The point is, I was born in this country,. I'm


older than both these people. I should not have to believe. If I


want to propagage my belief, and I want to have Sharia and expose


British foreign policy. Hang about I don't do anything illegal, I


haven't been raided and arrested, why have you a problem with my


views, if you don't like my views, in accordance to the law, why don't


you leave the country, I'm not doing anything illegal. The problem


is, people can be, people I think the issue here is that you are


expressing your views as a Muslim and trying to express them as a


legitimate view within Islam, the majority of Muslims do not agree


with you. The basic narrative here is that Islam isn't a holistic


religion that teaches every single aspect of life. The narrative that


comes out of yourself seems to focus purely on politics. How do


you counter this, how do you counter this, because you have, in


a sense, hearing this, presumably fears that this will be what


divides rather than brings together. The very thing that you have just


said you want to do? I think you know there is absolutely no


justification for what we saw yesterday. It doesn't matter what


is happening abroad, and as the Iman has said it is a separate


issue. People up and down the country can talk about that. You


can never equate that to what we saw yesterday. There is one short


question I want you to respond to honestly. It is unIslamic not to


condemn the murder yesterday? believe that action for me would


not be aed load. I do believe there is a difference of opinion. So it


is unIslamic? Not as far as other people are concerned. Not as far as


is Al-Qaeda. Thank you very much everybody.


In the aftermath of the killing of Lee Rigby, many people of all


faiths and none visited the site of the murder to pay their respects


and a tribute. For a small minority it was an opportunity to create


division under the banner of the English Defence League. Will the


terrible events in Woolich have ramification for race and community


relations. Hello. After a deliberately public


atrocity, a public display of grief outside Woolich ba barracks. Many


came today to express -- Woolwich Barracks. Many came to express


their horror at the killing of Lee Rigby. Among them a woman whose own


son was stabbed to death in East London 12 years ago. It is still a


murder and that guy's body was lying in the road yesterday. How


would that mother have felt. I know how I felt when the police knocked


at my door, I know how that lady feels and will feel for the rest of


her life. Are you worried about the reprecussions? Not at all. We will


unite. This is Woolich, this is Plumstead, we do unite. I mean last


night what happened in the town centre was ridiculous. We see the


Muslim up there. This is what happened in Woolich town centre


last night, members of the far right group the English Defence


League confronted police as they protested against what they called


the spread of political Islam. And outside the barracks today there


was some who agreed with the EDL's message. The English people have


had enough now, we are saying we won't have this on our streets, our


soldiers should not, in their own country be in danger. They are


meant to be safe at home. You think some poor parent has got a phone


call saying their child is dead. You would think they would be safe


in their own country. Afghanistan you are waiting for that call, here


in Woolich, it is disgusting it has happened. What do you think should


be about it? I can't really say what I really think, I think it


won't be put on air. Give me a clue? Send them all back to where


they come from. The English Defence League take a good hiding whether


they stand up and say what they want or they don't. I don't know I


think they are talking for a lot of the people and a lot of the way


people feel now. We feel like second class citizens in our own


country, basically. I think when our soldiers are being attacked it


proves we are second class citizens in our own country.


I met other white people in Woolich today who don't share those views.


But there were some others who did, but said they feared to speak


openly for fear of being branded raceist.


This borrowing, Greenwich, has seen rapid social change. The proportion


of the population that is white has fallen by more than 10% in just ten


years. This lady, who grew up here, says most people have got on quite


well, despite deep social problems. She thinks the use of the word


"terrorism" to describe yesterday's crime will now divide them of the


think they will have to deal with the reprecussions it will create


moral panic, and the EDL marching around, obviously they are anti-


Muslim groups. They are going to create, it will create a bit more


tension. At the local Islamic centre today, few wanted to talk


about the killing. Fears of an anti-Muslim backlash have increased


after mosques in Kent and Essex were attacked last night. Here the


Iman would only make a prepared statement. Let the response of our


nation be mature and thoughtful. This is a moment of prayer. Unity


and not of hasty reaction. Thank you very much. What are the dangers


now do you think for community relations? I'm sorry I can't speak


much now, we are deeply saddened with this issue. We have never been


facing this kind of thing in this neighbourhood. So we can't speak


more. And we don't have our feelings, we are so disturbed and


so saddened by this issue. estate behind the mosque, now very


ethically mixed was unusually quiet today. Among those nervous about


the future is Josie Murphy a convert to Islam. I'm worried about


the tension in the community. It is giving the wrong impression of


Islam. Regardless of what the soldier did in the paths, at that


precise moment he was innocent. He was an innocent. It is wrong, it is


so wrong. I'm a bit worried about the problems that may arise after.


What kind of problems do you think might arise? Hate, just hate.


main purpose of yesterday's crime was apparently to try to raise


tensions in society. And many people here are afraid that's what


will now happen, with various different groups trying to use


yesterday's terrible events to advance their own agendas. Grief


unites, but can also divide. What effect it has here won't be clear


until long after the flowers have faileded -- faded.


We have our guests with nouse now. -- us now.


First of all, Matthew, listening to people in the film there, there is


two things, there is an insecurity about what actually happened and


the seeming randomness of it happening and obviously the target


was the soldiers, but we had no notice or idea that anything was


going to happen. They are worried about that, they are also worried


about the impact it will have on essentially a mixed community?


think all communities will be worried about the impact of the


events. Just to give you a sense of how this has played out over the


past 15 hours. If we look at the world, the murky world of the far


right, more than 60,000 people have subscribed to the English Defence


League's Facebook page since the attack. This is new people?


people, on top of the 21,000 who were already subscribing. Can you


get any sense of where they are subscribing from, is it just


somewhere? We will have that data in time. At the moment what we have


seen is the attack revitalising a movement that was rapidly


disintegrating. The English Defence League was very quick yesterday to


move from on-line into offline action. And to move geographically


as well? Yes that's right. I think it is understandable that when


there is such a provocative incident like this that you would


see this surge of interest in extremist group. That doesn't


automatically translate into people actually joining in fisically and


showing up. So whilst 60,000 people have now expressed interest in the


EDL on-line, it was more like 60EDL activists turning up in Woolich


last night. You were there? I was there. What happens? This group of


60 tried to go into the square and charged with bottles. They charged


a group of locals and passers by, a mixed race group, the police caught


up and separated them. The rest of the right descended into running


battles with the police. What I would say about that is probably


most of those 60 activists wouldn't be from Woolich. They would have


come from outside. Like the EDL's leader, Steven Lennon, he came from


Lutton specifically to try to provoke a larger backlash in


Woolich. What happens then, not just in Woolich, but elsewhere, to


counter the impact of the EDL? think once condemnation makes way


for analysis we are going to face some big questions. Have we got our


strategy on integration right? Have we devoted enough resources to


building bridges across communities. Do people, do British Muslims feel


confident about coming forward and saying they are deeply worried


about perhaps somebody that they have heard expressing extremist


views. Do people feel comfortable that they will be supported if they


come forward? Well what is clear is that those views are certainly


there. They are well entrenched and they were there long before the


crisis, they were there, to be honest, long before the attacks on


7/7 and in 2001. I think just going back to the point about impact,


over the longer term, I think we do have to sit down and think about


how extremism and different forms of extremism and their wider circle


of tacit support are changing. What we can do really to cut off that


well that surround these individual groups. Do you feel that well


poisons the whole nature of multiculturalism if it is not


stopped? Well I mean on the question of multiculturalism, I


mean this is a very ambiguous term. It is often held up as the example


of all that has gone wrong with British society. In terms of state


policies, multiculturalism hasn't really been pursued for a decade or


so. But I think it has another meaning and a more colloquial


meaning, to many it is just a byword for the existence of a


multiethnic society. Groups like the EDL and populist politicians


and others will use that word as a nod and a wink to say to people as


if you are really not happy from take your pick from a list of


things, immigration, the presence of Muslims in Britain, you know,


rally against multiculturalism and we will get rid of all this. Where


is the onus, who is the onus on? think that is a crucial question.


You raise this idea a minute ago about Muslims rooting out


extremists within their own community, I think it has to go


beyond that. We can't expect the weight of this to fall on the


shoulders of one community. Where the far right has been most


successfully opposed in the past it has been grassroots organisations


with the help of the state, or local councils and the rest of it.


What you are suggesting is if you have 60,000 clicks on a Facebook


site it is about rooting that out from within the community as well?


What we saw last night was something that some analysts called


cumulative extremism, where you have one form of extremism bouncing


off another in a spiral of conflict and tension. That is a challenge,


because over the last ten years we as a society have got used to


focusing on one form of extremism, it is Al-Qaeda or the far right. We


don't actually think that seriously about the interplay between the two.


If you heard one of the women in the film saying she felt like a


second class citizen, white British working-class, have they been short


changed? Not by British Muslims, but just by being short changed by


society? I think we have to be very careful. I'm not sure of Dan's view,


but the whole debate about British national identity is getting tired.


There is a risk we trip into another debate about where is


Britain in the 21st century. This ultimately was an act of violent


extremism. Thank you very much. Tomorrow morning's front pages,


obviously Woolich dominates the Richard Watson joins us gip. Where


is again. Where will the investigation go to now? It can be


summarised on three points, the network, the police and the


Security Service no doubt will be looking at whether these people had


a wider network. At the moment there is no indication of that. It


looks like a fairly discreet unit. Support, what support, if any, did


they receive from others? And knowledge, community knowledge


about what was going on? In all likelyhood someone would have known


that they had some extremist views. How wide that net was spread will


be subject to further investigation. These are the areas we will focus


on. Presumably and on the on contacts they had in other places,


not with the intent to kill but with that mindset? The network will


be very important, who they were associated with, and who they were


communicating with. Mentoring possibly? Who they will be mentored


by. But these will be crucial aspect, the short-term


investigation but also to the much longer term investigation, which is


absolutely crucial if Britain is to tackle the problem of extremism in


the longer term. Thank you to all my guests tonight.


That is all we have time for tonight. We will have more tomorrow,


until then from all of us here good night. Good evening, some


unseasonable and chilly and wet weather to bring the week to a


close. For Scotland and Northern Ireland a slightly quieter day.


Lighter winds and a dryer story, warmer in the sunshine. Big


contrasts between the north and the south. For the south west of


England and Wales, perhaps some brighter spells through the


afternoon. It will feel chilly, partly because of the low


temperatures but also because of the strong and gusty winds. Across


the central areas of England highs of 8 or 9, compromised which the


wind and rain. It will feel cold. For Scotland and Northern Ireland


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