23/05/2013 Newsnight


23/05/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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He was Drummer Lee Rigby of the 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of

:00:18.:00:23.

Fusiliers. He served in Afghanistan and loaves a two-year-old son Jack.

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Yesterday he was horrifically murdered in Woolich. Two men were

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arrested yesterday, more held today. We devote the programme to analysis

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of this abhorrent crime. What is the extent of home-grown extremism

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in the UK? If the Security Services knew about them could they have

:00:44.:00:47.

been stopped? It is clear that would have been very hard. This is

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a new type of political violence, simple letter, and more -- simpler

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and more difficult to thwart. is Michael Adebolajo standing

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behind a former leader of a banned extremist organisation did this man

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help radicalise the murder suspect, we will challenge him. Flowers

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today, how will yesterday's killing affect community relations. When

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our soldiers are being attacked, it proves we are second class citizens

:01:22.:01:32.
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in our own country. Good evening, the family of

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murdered Drummer Lee Rigby, who was 25 from Greater Manchester, tonight

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paid tribute to a loving son, husband, father, brother and uncle.

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The two men suspected of killing him from known to the Security

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Services. One has been identified as 28-year-old Michael Adebolajo

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from Romford in Essex, a Muslim convert. Tonight, after two more

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arrested today, we ask whether the attack was part of a larger

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extremist grouping, or the actions of two called lone wolves. How they

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were radicalised and whether this hate crime will impact on race and

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communications? First I'm joined by our defence editor. How has the

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investigation been progressing? police, interestingly, put out a

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statement this afternoon talking in terms of a complex multifaceted

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investigation, many lines of inquiry, that kind of thing.

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Interesting to see them like many other people, politicians, media,

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responding in this standard format. It is very similar language we have

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heard after previous incidents. Yet there is something very different

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about what has happened here. In a sense it is so obvious what

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happened yesterday. It is not a very complex issue. Dozens of

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witnesses, CCTV, phones, all the rest of it. In another sense it is

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very complicated. Whether those people had any real connections

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with others, whether there were people sheltering and inspiring

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them to do that is a more complicated question, they are now

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trying to get to the bottom of that. We know they were on a list of

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suspected people by MI5, the Security Service, that has re-

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opened questions, familiar ones again, about whether a change in

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the law is needed. We saw the former Home Secretary, John Reid on

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the programme, and Jack Straw today saying wider interception of

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communications is necessary if the country really wants to be able to

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monitor the activities of thousands of people on these lists. A as if

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thait -- fascinating thing today is the way people have oscillated

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their response to the situation and how to respond to this new type of

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violence. For the police, a day of raids, six

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properties were targeted, including five in London and one in Lincoln.

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They were connected to the two suspects in yesterday's attack.

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Michael Adebolajo, seen here in 207 at a demonstration of the Al-

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Muhajiroun group, and he had had a regard of activism. One man

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convicted of terrorism offences remembers Adebolajo well.

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Definitely he has been somebody who has been around and the police know

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who he is. I don't really know what they mean by he's a clean skin, or

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if he's not a clean skin. It is certainly doesn't seem like

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somebody who came out of nowhere. Certainly not a lunatic or hiding

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his belief, he has been very outspoken about his concerns and

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grievances. Of the other suspect much less has been said. It is

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known he was also on police files, and it has been suggested that he

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too may be of Nigerian origin. Local people today remembered the

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victim of the attack, a rebel of the 2nd Battalion Royal Regiment of

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Fusiliers. Drummer Lee Rigby, a popular member of his band and

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battalion. He had served in Afghanistan. After an initial order

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to the forces not to go out in uniform, the Government recinded

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that, urging troops to carry on as normal. We are determined not to be

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intimidated into not doing the right thing, whether here in this

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country or in Afghanistan or wherever we seek to serve the

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nation. So it hasn't facted us in a direct sense, if anything it has

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reinforced our desire and determination to do the right thing.

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The knowledge that the two attackers were known militants has

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caused questions for the security authorities. But an act of violence,

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committed by two men with a car and some knives, required little

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preparation and any foreknowledge may have been confined to a small

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group. Making it very hard to detect in vans. There is no need

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for any complex plot, there is no need for e-mail communication,

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there is no need for experimenting with explosives, buying material

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quietly. You could do this very straight forwardly, very quickly,

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without arousing any attention whatsoever. And that made it

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incredibly difficult to prevent and incredibly difficult to detect. I'm

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not surprised that, if you want, there was a failure to detect it on

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those grounds. The only way to detect this was if you had

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intelligence about them as individuals, not the nature of the

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plot but about them as individuals. For the Prime Minister a difficult

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balancing act. Acknowledging the attack, meeting with community

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leaders to head off any tensions, while not I a peering to concede

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the agenda to men of violence. After an event like this, it is

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natural that questions will be asked about what additional steps

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can be taken to keep us safe. I will make sure those questions are

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asked and answered. But I'm not in favour of knee-jerk responses. The

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police have responded with heightened security and activity,

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and that is right. But one of the best ways of defeating terrorism is

:07:08.:07:18.
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to go about our normal lives. That is what we shall all do. Some

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reactions to Woolich may look like business as usual, but in many ways

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it followed a distinct and novel pattern. This was a new kind of

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political violence, perhaps more hate crime than terrorism as we

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have traditionally defined it. There was a single victim, rather

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than mass casualties as there were on 7/7. And the choice of weapons,

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knives and a car, as well as the small number of people who would

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have needed to know about it in advance, all made it very unlikely

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that the plotters would be discovered by the Security Service.

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Add to that the dramatic effect of the alleged attacker addressing

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people on the scene afterwards and you have a disturbing at the

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phenomenon that further -- a disturbing phenomenon that security

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chiefs believe is all too easy to copy. There was a simple attack, no

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complicated elements, no explosives, no long-term planning, get some

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knives, get a car, carry out the attack. Very, very simple, very,

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very difficult to stop. The trade- off is you are limited in terms of

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what you can do. Given that one of the key elements for most terrorist

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attacks is they attract media attention, it has to be seen as a

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huge success. The aftermath of this attack is still unfolding. Two

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people this afternoon were arrested as part of the inquiry. How the

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authorities deal with this, whether it inspires imitators are important

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questions for the coming tonights. We are going to discuss those now.

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I'm joined in the studio by Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP for Tooting,

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and New York by Richard Barrett the former hid of counter terrorism,

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and until a few months ago head of the Al-Qaeda monitoring team. First

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of all, Sadiq Khan, how chilling was the nature of this attack,

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given it was extremely low-tech and not disorganised but apparently

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unorganised? Anybody who saw the horrific images last night, the

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newspaper pictures today will have been horrified. What is remarkable

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is actually previously terrorists would use programmes like Al-

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Jazeera, or outlets like that to get their images out there and

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their story out and their justification out. What you had

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last night was people with mobile phones being asked to record this

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and it being over YouTube and some of the TV channels as well last

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night, so the methods were simple, but actually the method of

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radicalisation is simple as well. Rather than a physical preacher in

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the room radicalising you, it is done over the Internet. Richard

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Barrett, from your point of view, how different did this appear to be,

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this idea that these men were standing there on their ground

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waiting to be picked up. They wanted their story to be beamed

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around the world. This is new isn't it? Well, I'm not sure how new it

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is. The attack, for example, in Boston was rather similar, wasn't

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it. I know those guys tried to get away. They hadn't made any real

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plan to get away. I think that these unorganised attacks, as you

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called them, do have this as a hallmark. That the people are

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really looking for visual impact, their objective afterall is to

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terrorise, not to kill people. And the horrific killing in Woolich,

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but one person, as you say, rather than the victims that there were on

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"severn". But the impact -- 7/7. But the impact is the same, they

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still managed to get the huge persuasive terrorist impact rather

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than just committing some murder somewhere and sneaking down a

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backstreet. There is a delay in the line. How hard do you think this

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kind of terror, this hate crime is to stop? Given they may not be part

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of a group which has been targeted by surveillance regularly? I think

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it is incredibly hard to stop. I assume that these people are

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probably coming out of a small group, without necessarily any

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overseas connections or any other broader connections in the UK.

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Which could come to the attention of the Security Services more than

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they did. When does a person who expresses radical views, who joins

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a radical group flip over to be a violent extremist, somebody who

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will commit a crime like this. And to find the signals, the red flags,

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as it were, is enormously hard. I imagine that these two people

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themselves probably didn't have any intention to commit a crime like

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this until relatively recently before they did. I think it is an

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amazingly difficult job. Richard Barrett's view, the fact that they

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hadn't preplanned it for a long time. We know the Al-Qaeda magazine

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talked about the idea of using cars and of course the idea of using

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pressure cookers which the Boston killers used. But, we know that

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although these suspects were subject to surveillance before, we

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know that recently one of the suspects has been talking quite

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inflammatory language. Is there a mechanism whereby those pieces of

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information can come to the attention of the security forces?

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It is early days yet. We don't know all the facts of this case. What we

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do know is where historically people could be radicalised in

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groups, they were governed spaced and could be inside a mosque.

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Nowadays you can be radicalised in your bedroom, or in somebody's

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living room. Also the most primitive methods were used, not

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ricin, not explosives, not fertilisers, but a knife and a meat

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cutter. So a word of caution. What they are trying to target is a way

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of life. We have an open society. A member of parliament sees their

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constituents, the risks they take there. Stephen Timms was. We have

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soldiers who can walk around in their uniforms and be proud to do

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so. And police without guns. want all those things, does it have

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to be compromised? Those are the values we are proud of and under

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attack. Of course we should prevent as many as we can, and the Security

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Services do, but some will get through. It is virtually impossible

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to stop, we know the suspects were under surveillance, and formerly,

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presumably not on the radar now. As we said earlier, that applies to

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thousands of people. Is there any way, it is a needle in a haystack,

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is it not? It is a bit of a needle in a haystack. It is important to

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remember the, not only the lack of resources perhaps, but also the

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legal framework within which the Security Services work. Sure, they

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must have had some indication that these guys were a problem in order

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to note their names. But it is one thing to note their names, it is

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quite another thing to take invasive action to track their

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movements and so on. Clearly the evidence didn't stack up enough to

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be able to cross these legal thresholds that are important. I

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think when we are talking about these attacks, what are those guys

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trying to do? They are essentially trying to change our society. But I

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don't think they are trying to change our society in a way that

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enhances our values. I think they are trying to undermine our values.

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If our reaction is to put over more surveillance then we are doing that

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job for them. Basically it is not about increasing surveillance but

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attacking the ideology, ordealing with the ideology, as a Muslim what

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is the best way to do that? What has been great over the last 24

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hours is everyone has come out and condemned the act and everyone's

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sympathy and prayers are with the family of Drummer Lee Rigby. There

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are some people who are radicalised by individuals, and your piece

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talked about a potential radicaliser. Also the Internet, it

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is difficult to curb the information coming there or

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stopping people reading literature. We need to make we are a resilient

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society, if someone comes out with rhetoric that is inflammatory and

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inciting violence they are challenged. Also information is

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made available to people who can do something about it, that is a

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different thing? One of the things the police are doing is try to

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continue to get the confidence of the public, we police by consent.

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The Security Services and the police, with the best will in the

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world with all the tools need the public to come forward. And that

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means the public will have confidence in those in power and

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authority. Yesterday's murder has highlighted

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the dangers of home-grown terrorism. British Muslims radicalised either

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as we were talking about by like- minded extremist groups, so juorns

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abroad or in their rooms through social media. Although few in

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number they can be extremly threatening, we report on --

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extremely threatening, we report on a sub-culture. How dangerous is it?

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We are talking about small scale terrorist threats. It is right to

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combat that threat to get people to come on board and come forward with

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community evidence. I have been taking a look at home-grown

:17:09.:17:19.
:17:19.:17:26.

terrorism extremism, it starts with disturbing images from yesterday.

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Classic rhetoric, and Mohammed Sadiq Khan film here. The Jihadi

:17:33.:17:37.

narrative of Islam at war with the west. Yet the London bombings were

:17:37.:17:41.

almost eight years ago. There has been a sense, perhaps more a hope,

:17:41.:17:45.

that the appetite for extremism in Britain has been in decline.

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Afterall, there has been no successful lethal terrorist attack

:17:49.:17:56.

on home soil since 2005. But some comments made after the attacks

:17:56.:18:04.

suggest that Britain may have a very serious problem indeed. This

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man advises the Metropolitan Police on community relations, he's a

:18:09.:18:11.

leader in High Wickham's substantial Muslim community, he

:18:11.:18:15.

says they were deeply shocked by the attack. We heard a different

:18:15.:18:22.

variety of views, mainly shock and horror. However within there, there

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were some people who were talking in a manner that presented a

:18:27.:18:30.

justification for this evil act. They are not seeing the picture

:18:30.:18:34.

that most of us see which is this is a young man with a family.

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course almost all British Muslims utterly condemn the attack, though

:18:40.:18:43.

a small minority seem to disagree. Last night we trawled through

:18:43.:18:53.
:18:53.:19:00.

comments on the Internet. Some were One person used a photograph of

:19:00.:19:10.
:19:10.:19:15.

Osama Bin Laden as his internet Another tweet we read belittles the

:19:15.:19:25.
:19:25.:19:36.

crime. Other messages were more extreme. The Government has a

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policy to counter such sentiments, preventing violent extremism,

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stopping people to take it to the next stage is crucial, because

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small plots are so difficult to uncover. This is one of the

:19:48.:19:53.

challenges that exists now, because you can have intelligence, you can

:19:54.:19:58.

have information, but when you have small-scale plots, that are not

:19:58.:20:02.

necessarily mass casualty, looking to perhaps blow up a plane or a

:20:02.:20:06.

building, focused on targeted assassinations, it becomes very

:20:06.:20:10.

hard to monitor that activity. The only way is through the Internet.

:20:10.:20:15.

Increasingly one is finding that is the platform, the pulpit for

:20:16.:20:19.

extremism. Some critics suggest leaders inside the Muslim community

:20:19.:20:24.

itself have been slow to tackle the problem in its midst. And as a

:20:25.:20:29.

consequence, this latest attack was inevitable. It doesn't surprise me

:20:29.:20:33.

at all. In fact you will not be surprised to hear that I believe

:20:33.:20:37.

you will experience far more attacks, because this is, the root

:20:37.:20:41.

causes have not changed. Neither has the policy changed that leads

:20:41.:20:46.

to this rage, and neither have the Muslim community been educated by

:20:46.:20:50.

our leadership as to what peaceful, democratic, political measure they

:20:50.:20:54.

could take to bring about that change that they so need. Does it

:20:54.:20:59.

surprise you that eight years ever 7/7, the London bombings, we are

:20:59.:21:02.

still facing these problems? just now, we are going to face the

:21:02.:21:06.

same problems eight years further down the line and more. Until we

:21:06.:21:09.

get to the root causes of this anger, this strong emotion, things

:21:09.:21:15.

are not going to change. Yesterday's brutal murder has been

:21:15.:21:19.

profoundly shocking for virtually all Britains. But the fact that a

:21:19.:21:24.

Tyne -- Britons, but the fact that a tiny minority support such acts

:21:24.:21:28.

mean there is a ready pool of new recruits. Despite of Government

:21:28.:21:31.

programmes and a clear community rejection of this nihilism, that

:21:31.:21:36.

problem persists. Earlier this evening I spoke to

:21:36.:21:40.

Anjem Choudary, who you saw earlier in the package, a radical Muslim

:21:40.:21:45.

who once led the now banned extremist group, Al-Muhajiroun. Mr

:21:45.:21:49.

Choudary says he knows the Woolich suspect, Michael Adebolajo, and he

:21:49.:21:52.

was standing alongside him in a protest in images that emerged

:21:52.:21:57.

today. During our discussion he was challenged on his views by the

:21:57.:22:01.

executive director of the Islamic Society of Britain, and by the Iman

:22:02.:22:06.

Shams Adduha Muhammad, the director of the college in East London.

:22:06.:22:09.

Anjem Choudary what was your relationship with Michael

:22:09.:22:16.

Adebolajo? As an Islamic movement we come across many people, as you

:22:16.:22:19.

know Al-Muhajiroun has been in existence for 10-15 years. He came

:22:19.:22:24.

to the demonstrations and attended some of the lectures. He stood next

:22:24.:22:27.

to you in the demonstrations? come across thousands of people in

:22:27.:22:30.

our own activities. The Al- Muhajiroun of the most popular

:22:30.:22:36.

Islamic movement among the youth, especially in the 1990s. Now it is

:22:36.:22:40.

banned. When did you last speak to him? About two or three years ago.

:22:40.:22:46.

When you saw him standing there with his bloodied hands and meat

:22:46.:22:49.

cleavers, were you horrified? were shocked like everybody else.

:22:49.:22:52.

Horrified? It was a shocking scene, there is no doubt about that.

:22:53.:22:57.

you abhor what he did? I think what he said explains what he did.

:22:57.:23:03.

That's a different thing. That's a different thing, I'm really wanting

:23:03.:23:07.

your reaction, when you saw that image of him were you horrified?

:23:07.:23:10.

When I saw what took place I was shocked. Let me say one thing, what

:23:10.:23:15.

he said in the clip, which has been played widely, I think not many

:23:15.:23:19.

Muslims would disagree with. He was talking about the British foreign

:23:19.:23:24.

policy. Let's be clear, you are making a very big assertion there,

:23:24.:23:28.

and I have to say I would disagree that many Muslims? Most Muslims

:23:28.:23:32.

around the world would agree. to you I find it extraordinary that

:23:32.:23:38.

you could not say that you abhored the scene of him standing, what he

:23:38.:23:44.

had done, he had actually killed a man in the street. And you can't

:23:44.:23:47.

bring yourself? One man killed in the street doesn't equate to the

:23:47.:23:51.

hundreds of thousands of millions slaughtered by the British,

:23:51.:23:58.

American foreign policy. Those tortured in Guantanamo Bay, if we

:23:58.:24:03.

are abhoring where there is the condemnation for the British

:24:03.:24:07.

foreign policy. This was in Woolich beside a primary school, you

:24:07.:24:11.

attended that primary school. I'm asking you a simple question, are

:24:11.:24:14.

you refusing to condemn what happened because you had a hand in

:24:14.:24:19.

radicalising Michael Adebolajo? radicalisation is calling for

:24:19.:24:28.

Sharia and expose ex-- exposing the British foreign policy and calling

:24:28.:24:31.

for radicalisation, I have no problem with that. We are on record

:24:31.:24:35.

as saying Muslims in Britain have a covenant of security, in return for

:24:35.:24:38.

their life being protected they can't target the lives of those

:24:38.:24:43.

with whom they live. The fact is that Anjem Choudary may not have

:24:43.:24:48.

many follower, but surely what he is saying now and these events show

:24:48.:24:51.

he's dangerous? I haven't come across a single Muslim and I

:24:51.:24:55.

interact with a lot of them who agrees with what happened and would

:24:55.:25:03.

agree with that narrative. I think although he refuses to abhor, in

:25:03.:25:07.

his own way he said that what has happened is unjustified. If it is

:25:07.:25:11.

unjustified why can't you just say it is wrong. You said if we're here

:25:11.:25:17.

on a covenant, right, for our safety and our security, and if

:25:17.:25:20.

based on that same narrative it is incorrect to go out there and kill

:25:21.:25:24.

someone. An innocent person. There is no condemnation of the cause of

:25:24.:25:33.

that. If we deal with the cause which is the occupation of Muslim

:25:33.:25:37.

land. Anjem Choudary would you please, I would like you. Why is it

:25:38.:25:41.

not possible. Be polite for a moment. Why is it not possible for

:25:41.:25:49.

us as Muslims, who are people who follow a path that is holistic,

:25:49.:25:52.

without focusing on one particular aspect that deals with Jihad et

:25:52.:25:57.

cetera, why is it we cannot condemn what happened here, right, and at

:25:57.:26:01.

the same time air our views with regards to what goes on in terms of

:26:02.:26:05.

foreign policy. What do you do with people who have been radicalised by

:26:06.:26:10.

Anjem Choudary coming to your mosque, what happens? To be honest

:26:10.:26:14.

people of that particular mind set, they tend to stick to themselves,

:26:14.:26:18.

and they don't want to speak to anybody. There is a notion among

:26:18.:26:21.

themselves, because of the way they think that everybody else is a

:26:21.:26:25.

hypocrite because everybody else doesn't go around openly condemning.

:26:25.:26:29.

Speak and verify with me. That is not true. From your point of view,

:26:29.:26:32.

what impact do you think the small minority of people who hold Anjem

:26:32.:26:36.

Choudary's views have, is the impact disproportionate to their

:26:36.:26:41.

number? I just want to give our condolences and thoughts to Lee

:26:41.:26:44.

Rigby's family. Seeing his photo today has brought it home. A very

:26:44.:26:49.

smart young man in his uniform and how horrific it was he was murdered

:26:49.:26:52.

like that in cold blood. Our thoughts go to his family and the

:26:52.:26:56.

people who had to witness something as horrific as that. Everyone has

:26:56.:27:01.

been shocked and outraged about what has happened. Condmation from

:27:01.:27:04.

every Muslim organisation. What damage though. This kind of

:27:05.:27:08.

rhetoric has no place in this country. And the vast majority of

:27:08.:27:11.

people would say that, the majority of people have stood together today

:27:11.:27:18.

from all faiths, all background, Muslims and not, and said you will

:27:18.:27:24.

not divide this country. Anjem Choudary, you seem not, if I'm

:27:24.:27:28.

right to like Britain very much, and there are people of all creeds

:27:28.:27:31.

and none who wish that you would just go and take your views with

:27:31.:27:38.

you. Why do you stay? The point is, I was born in this country,. I'm

:27:38.:27:41.

older than both these people. I should not have to believe. If I

:27:41.:27:45.

want to propagage my belief, and I want to have Sharia and expose

:27:45.:27:49.

British foreign policy. Hang about I don't do anything illegal, I

:27:49.:27:52.

haven't been raided and arrested, why have you a problem with my

:27:52.:27:55.

views, if you don't like my views, in accordance to the law, why don't

:27:55.:27:59.

you leave the country, I'm not doing anything illegal. The problem

:27:59.:28:04.

is, people can be, people I think the issue here is that you are

:28:04.:28:09.

expressing your views as a Muslim and trying to express them as a

:28:09.:28:13.

legitimate view within Islam, the majority of Muslims do not agree

:28:14.:28:21.

with you. The basic narrative here is that Islam isn't a holistic

:28:21.:28:25.

religion that teaches every single aspect of life. The narrative that

:28:25.:28:31.

comes out of yourself seems to focus purely on politics. How do

:28:31.:28:34.

you counter this, how do you counter this, because you have, in

:28:34.:28:39.

a sense, hearing this, presumably fears that this will be what

:28:40.:28:42.

divides rather than brings together. The very thing that you have just

:28:42.:28:46.

said you want to do? I think you know there is absolutely no

:28:46.:28:48.

justification for what we saw yesterday. It doesn't matter what

:28:48.:28:53.

is happening abroad, and as the Iman has said it is a separate

:28:53.:28:56.

issue. People up and down the country can talk about that. You

:28:56.:29:01.

can never equate that to what we saw yesterday. There is one short

:29:01.:29:05.

question I want you to respond to honestly. It is unIslamic not to

:29:05.:29:09.

condemn the murder yesterday? believe that action for me would

:29:09.:29:14.

not be aed load. I do believe there is a difference of opinion. So it

:29:14.:29:19.

is unIslamic? Not as far as other people are concerned. Not as far as

:29:19.:29:26.

is Al-Qaeda. Thank you very much everybody.

:29:26.:29:29.

In the aftermath of the killing of Lee Rigby, many people of all

:29:29.:29:34.

faiths and none visited the site of the murder to pay their respects

:29:34.:29:39.

and a tribute. For a small minority it was an opportunity to create

:29:39.:29:42.

division under the banner of the English Defence League. Will the

:29:42.:29:46.

terrible events in Woolich have ramification for race and community

:29:46.:29:56.
:29:56.:30:04.

relations. Hello. After a deliberately public

:30:04.:30:09.

atrocity, a public display of grief outside Woolich ba barracks. Many

:30:09.:30:14.

came today to express -- Woolwich Barracks. Many came to express

:30:14.:30:18.

their horror at the killing of Lee Rigby. Among them a woman whose own

:30:18.:30:24.

son was stabbed to death in East London 12 years ago. It is still a

:30:24.:30:27.

murder and that guy's body was lying in the road yesterday. How

:30:27.:30:31.

would that mother have felt. I know how I felt when the police knocked

:30:31.:30:35.

at my door, I know how that lady feels and will feel for the rest of

:30:35.:30:39.

her life. Are you worried about the reprecussions? Not at all. We will

:30:39.:30:44.

unite. This is Woolich, this is Plumstead, we do unite. I mean last

:30:44.:30:51.

night what happened in the town centre was ridiculous. We see the

:30:51.:30:54.

Muslim up there. This is what happened in Woolich town centre

:30:54.:30:57.

last night, members of the far right group the English Defence

:30:57.:31:01.

League confronted police as they protested against what they called

:31:01.:31:04.

the spread of political Islam. And outside the barracks today there

:31:04.:31:09.

was some who agreed with the EDL's message. The English people have

:31:09.:31:12.

had enough now, we are saying we won't have this on our streets, our

:31:12.:31:16.

soldiers should not, in their own country be in danger. They are

:31:16.:31:20.

meant to be safe at home. You think some poor parent has got a phone

:31:21.:31:24.

call saying their child is dead. You would think they would be safe

:31:24.:31:28.

in their own country. Afghanistan you are waiting for that call, here

:31:28.:31:31.

in Woolich, it is disgusting it has happened. What do you think should

:31:31.:31:36.

be about it? I can't really say what I really think, I think it

:31:36.:31:42.

won't be put on air. Give me a clue? Send them all back to where

:31:42.:31:45.

they come from. The English Defence League take a good hiding whether

:31:45.:31:50.

they stand up and say what they want or they don't. I don't know I

:31:50.:31:54.

think they are talking for a lot of the people and a lot of the way

:31:54.:31:58.

people feel now. We feel like second class citizens in our own

:31:58.:32:02.

country, basically. I think when our soldiers are being attacked it

:32:02.:32:05.

proves we are second class citizens in our own country.

:32:05.:32:10.

I met other white people in Woolich today who don't share those views.

:32:10.:32:13.

But there were some others who did, but said they feared to speak

:32:13.:32:18.

openly for fear of being branded raceist.

:32:18.:32:22.

This borrowing, Greenwich, has seen rapid social change. The proportion

:32:22.:32:25.

of the population that is white has fallen by more than 10% in just ten

:32:25.:32:34.

years. This lady, who grew up here, says most people have got on quite

:32:34.:32:38.

well, despite deep social problems. She thinks the use of the word

:32:39.:32:42.

"terrorism" to describe yesterday's crime will now divide them of the

:32:42.:32:48.

think they will have to deal with the reprecussions it will create

:32:48.:32:53.

moral panic, and the EDL marching around, obviously they are anti-

:32:53.:32:57.

Muslim groups. They are going to create, it will create a bit more

:32:58.:33:01.

tension. At the local Islamic centre today, few wanted to talk

:33:01.:33:06.

about the killing. Fears of an anti-Muslim backlash have increased

:33:06.:33:10.

after mosques in Kent and Essex were attacked last night. Here the

:33:10.:33:17.

Iman would only make a prepared statement. Let the response of our

:33:17.:33:22.

nation be mature and thoughtful. This is a moment of prayer. Unity

:33:22.:33:29.

and not of hasty reaction. Thank you very much. What are the dangers

:33:29.:33:33.

now do you think for community relations? I'm sorry I can't speak

:33:33.:33:36.

much now, we are deeply saddened with this issue. We have never been

:33:36.:33:40.

facing this kind of thing in this neighbourhood. So we can't speak

:33:40.:33:44.

more. And we don't have our feelings, we are so disturbed and

:33:44.:33:53.

so saddened by this issue. estate behind the mosque, now very

:33:53.:33:57.

ethically mixed was unusually quiet today. Among those nervous about

:33:57.:34:00.

the future is Josie Murphy a convert to Islam. I'm worried about

:34:00.:34:04.

the tension in the community. It is giving the wrong impression of

:34:04.:34:08.

Islam. Regardless of what the soldier did in the paths, at that

:34:08.:34:15.

precise moment he was innocent. He was an innocent. It is wrong, it is

:34:15.:34:25.
:34:25.:34:26.

so wrong. I'm a bit worried about the problems that may arise after.

:34:26.:34:32.

What kind of problems do you think might arise? Hate, just hate.

:34:32.:34:37.

main purpose of yesterday's crime was apparently to try to raise

:34:37.:34:41.

tensions in society. And many people here are afraid that's what

:34:42.:34:45.

will now happen, with various different groups trying to use

:34:45.:34:52.

yesterday's terrible events to advance their own agendas. Grief

:34:52.:34:56.

unites, but can also divide. What effect it has here won't be clear

:34:56.:35:02.

until long after the flowers have faileded -- faded.

:35:02.:35:12.
:35:12.:35:15.

We have our guests with nouse now. -- us now.

:35:15.:35:19.

First of all, Matthew, listening to people in the film there, there is

:35:19.:35:24.

two things, there is an insecurity about what actually happened and

:35:24.:35:28.

the seeming randomness of it happening and obviously the target

:35:28.:35:31.

was the soldiers, but we had no notice or idea that anything was

:35:31.:35:34.

going to happen. They are worried about that, they are also worried

:35:34.:35:38.

about the impact it will have on essentially a mixed community?

:35:38.:35:41.

think all communities will be worried about the impact of the

:35:41.:35:46.

events. Just to give you a sense of how this has played out over the

:35:46.:35:50.

past 15 hours. If we look at the world, the murky world of the far

:35:50.:35:55.

right, more than 60,000 people have subscribed to the English Defence

:35:55.:35:58.

League's Facebook page since the attack. This is new people?

:35:58.:36:03.

people, on top of the 21,000 who were already subscribing. Can you

:36:03.:36:07.

get any sense of where they are subscribing from, is it just

:36:08.:36:11.

somewhere? We will have that data in time. At the moment what we have

:36:11.:36:17.

seen is the attack revitalising a movement that was rapidly

:36:17.:36:20.

disintegrating. The English Defence League was very quick yesterday to

:36:20.:36:25.

move from on-line into offline action. And to move geographically

:36:25.:36:30.

as well? Yes that's right. I think it is understandable that when

:36:30.:36:34.

there is such a provocative incident like this that you would

:36:34.:36:40.

see this surge of interest in extremist group. That doesn't

:36:40.:36:43.

automatically translate into people actually joining in fisically and

:36:43.:36:49.

showing up. So whilst 60,000 people have now expressed interest in the

:36:49.:36:54.

EDL on-line, it was more like 60EDL activists turning up in Woolich

:36:54.:37:02.

last night. You were there? I was there. What happens? This group of

:37:02.:37:06.

60 tried to go into the square and charged with bottles. They charged

:37:06.:37:11.

a group of locals and passers by, a mixed race group, the police caught

:37:11.:37:14.

up and separated them. The rest of the right descended into running

:37:14.:37:18.

battles with the police. What I would say about that is probably

:37:18.:37:22.

most of those 60 activists wouldn't be from Woolich. They would have

:37:22.:37:28.

come from outside. Like the EDL's leader, Steven Lennon, he came from

:37:28.:37:31.

Lutton specifically to try to provoke a larger backlash in

:37:31.:37:35.

Woolich. What happens then, not just in Woolich, but elsewhere, to

:37:35.:37:41.

counter the impact of the EDL? think once condemnation makes way

:37:41.:37:46.

for analysis we are going to face some big questions. Have we got our

:37:46.:37:53.

strategy on integration right? Have we devoted enough resources to

:37:53.:37:58.

building bridges across communities. Do people, do British Muslims feel

:37:58.:38:01.

confident about coming forward and saying they are deeply worried

:38:01.:38:05.

about perhaps somebody that they have heard expressing extremist

:38:05.:38:09.

views. Do people feel comfortable that they will be supported if they

:38:09.:38:13.

come forward? Well what is clear is that those views are certainly

:38:13.:38:16.

there. They are well entrenched and they were there long before the

:38:16.:38:21.

crisis, they were there, to be honest, long before the attacks on

:38:21.:38:25.

7/7 and in 2001. I think just going back to the point about impact,

:38:25.:38:30.

over the longer term, I think we do have to sit down and think about

:38:31.:38:35.

how extremism and different forms of extremism and their wider circle

:38:35.:38:41.

of tacit support are changing. What we can do really to cut off that

:38:41.:38:45.

well that surround these individual groups. Do you feel that well

:38:45.:38:49.

poisons the whole nature of multiculturalism if it is not

:38:49.:38:58.

stopped? Well I mean on the question of multiculturalism, I

:38:58.:39:02.

mean this is a very ambiguous term. It is often held up as the example

:39:02.:39:07.

of all that has gone wrong with British society. In terms of state

:39:07.:39:10.

policies, multiculturalism hasn't really been pursued for a decade or

:39:10.:39:15.

so. But I think it has another meaning and a more colloquial

:39:15.:39:22.

meaning, to many it is just a byword for the existence of a

:39:22.:39:26.

multiethnic society. Groups like the EDL and populist politicians

:39:26.:39:31.

and others will use that word as a nod and a wink to say to people as

:39:31.:39:35.

if you are really not happy from take your pick from a list of

:39:35.:39:41.

things, immigration, the presence of Muslims in Britain, you know,

:39:41.:39:44.

rally against multiculturalism and we will get rid of all this. Where

:39:44.:39:49.

is the onus, who is the onus on? think that is a crucial question.

:39:49.:39:58.

You raise this idea a minute ago about Muslims rooting out

:39:58.:40:01.

extremists within their own community, I think it has to go

:40:01.:40:06.

beyond that. We can't expect the weight of this to fall on the

:40:06.:40:11.

shoulders of one community. Where the far right has been most

:40:11.:40:13.

successfully opposed in the past it has been grassroots organisations

:40:13.:40:17.

with the help of the state, or local councils and the rest of it.

:40:17.:40:23.

What you are suggesting is if you have 60,000 clicks on a Facebook

:40:23.:40:28.

site it is about rooting that out from within the community as well?

:40:28.:40:32.

What we saw last night was something that some analysts called

:40:32.:40:35.

cumulative extremism, where you have one form of extremism bouncing

:40:35.:40:39.

off another in a spiral of conflict and tension. That is a challenge,

:40:39.:40:44.

because over the last ten years we as a society have got used to

:40:44.:40:48.

focusing on one form of extremism, it is Al-Qaeda or the far right. We

:40:48.:40:52.

don't actually think that seriously about the interplay between the two.

:40:52.:40:58.

If you heard one of the women in the film saying she felt like a

:40:58.:41:02.

second class citizen, white British working-class, have they been short

:41:02.:41:07.

changed? Not by British Muslims, but just by being short changed by

:41:07.:41:12.

society? I think we have to be very careful. I'm not sure of Dan's view,

:41:12.:41:15.

but the whole debate about British national identity is getting tired.

:41:15.:41:18.

There is a risk we trip into another debate about where is

:41:18.:41:24.

Britain in the 21st century. This ultimately was an act of violent

:41:24.:41:28.

extremism. Thank you very much. Tomorrow morning's front pages,

:41:28.:41:38.
:41:38.:42:16.

obviously Woolich dominates the Richard Watson joins us gip. Where

:42:16.:42:20.

is again. Where will the investigation go to now? It can be

:42:20.:42:23.

summarised on three points, the network, the police and the

:42:23.:42:26.

Security Service no doubt will be looking at whether these people had

:42:26.:42:29.

a wider network. At the moment there is no indication of that. It

:42:29.:42:34.

looks like a fairly discreet unit. Support, what support, if any, did

:42:34.:42:38.

they receive from others? And knowledge, community knowledge

:42:38.:42:42.

about what was going on? In all likelyhood someone would have known

:42:42.:42:49.

that they had some extremist views. How wide that net was spread will

:42:49.:42:54.

be subject to further investigation. These are the areas we will focus

:42:54.:43:01.

on. Presumably and on the on contacts they had in other places,

:43:01.:43:05.

not with the intent to kill but with that mindset? The network will

:43:05.:43:11.

be very important, who they were associated with, and who they were

:43:11.:43:14.

communicating with. Mentoring possibly? Who they will be mentored

:43:14.:43:17.

by. But these will be crucial aspect, the short-term

:43:17.:43:21.

investigation but also to the much longer term investigation, which is

:43:21.:43:24.

absolutely crucial if Britain is to tackle the problem of extremism in

:43:25.:43:29.

the longer term. Thank you to all my guests tonight.

:43:29.:43:32.

That is all we have time for tonight. We will have more tomorrow,

:43:32.:43:42.
:43:42.:44:15.

until then from all of us here good night. Good evening, some

:44:15.:44:18.

unseasonable and chilly and wet weather to bring the week to a

:44:18.:44:21.

close. For Scotland and Northern Ireland a slightly quieter day.

:44:21.:44:25.

Lighter winds and a dryer story, warmer in the sunshine. Big

:44:25.:44:28.

contrasts between the north and the south. For the south west of

:44:28.:44:30.

England and Wales, perhaps some brighter spells through the

:44:30.:44:34.

afternoon. It will feel chilly, partly because of the low

:44:34.:44:39.

temperatures but also because of the strong and gusty winds. Across

:44:39.:44:44.

the central areas of England highs of 8 or 9, compromised which the

:44:44.:44:49.

wind and rain. It will feel cold. For Scotland and Northern Ireland

:44:49.:44:59.
:44:59.:45:21.

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