22/05/2013 Newsnight


22/05/2013

With Jeremy Paxman. What can we learn from the atrocity that left a soldier dead in Woolwich? And what has the government got to do with marriage?


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An atros $:/STARTFEED. An atrocity in broad daylight, leaves a man,

:00:15.:00:18.

believed to be a British soldier, dead in London. We have had these

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sorts of attacks in our country. We never buckle in the face of them.

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At the heart of this story an apparent statement from a suspect

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who sounds like one of us, trying to justify killing in Britain to a

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cause thousands of miles away. Some of you might find the content of

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these pictures both offensive and upsetting. I apologise that people

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find this upsetting, in our land this happens every day. Remove your

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movement, they don't care about you. What can we learn about what

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happened today in Woolich? Also tonight ...A Kiss for the

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bride please. We marry for love, so why is marriage or any other

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romantic arrangement of our lives any business of politicians. It is

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nothing to do with the Government at all. Why they want to poke their

:01:16.:01:26.
:01:26.:01:27.

noses in! I don't know! Few news events honestly merit the word

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"shocking", but this afternoon's meat cleaver murder of what is

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believed to be an off-duty soldier in East London does. The fact that

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his killer then danced around his body shouting "good is great" and

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inviting photographs, and add a further dimension. That one ranted

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in a London street trying to justify the atrocity, aggravates

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the eaves and the offence given. The Home Secretary tonight has

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condemned what she said is probably an act of terrorism. The

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Metropolitan Police commissioner says they have launched a murder

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inquiry. Bizarrely just yesterday I was speaking to somebody in the

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world of counter terrorism who told me that when they were looking at

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the Olympics they had considered the possibility of a stabbing on a

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train, as he put it, by a militant. He said it was our nightmare

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scenario we could do nothing possibly to stop a thing like that.

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Today it would seem that kind of scenario unfolded on the streets of

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Woolich as you have said, some of the images that came out of it may

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be disturbing to some people. must fight them as they fight us,

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an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had

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to witness this today, in our hand our women have to see the same.

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This is the man who attempts to justify murder, while apologising

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that women had to witness it. Shocking footage taken by a

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passerby on their mobile phone. The attack was at 2.20, a man walking

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up the street of knocked down by this blue car that had mounted the

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pavement. The two occupants got out and started to stab and bludgeon

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the victim with a variety of knives and a meat cleaver. Hours later

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heavy blood stains on the pavement still marked the site of the

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murderous assault. Once the victim was dead or dying his body was

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dragged into the road. I was on the bus coming into Woolich and I saw a

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man lying motion lesson the floor. And there was a car with this body,

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so I thought it had been a road traffic collision. I got off the

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bus and walked around to another viewpoint where the body was

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covered up. There was a huge police presence, helicopters in the air.

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The two men, alleged to have attacked him, made no attempt to

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flee. Instead they started talking to shocked bystanders. Some people

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tried to help the victim, while just feet away a man with blood

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stained hands made political statements to those nearby of the

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Remove your Government, they don't care about you, do you think David

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Cameron will get caught in the street when we start bussing our

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gun, do you think our politician also die, no it will be the average

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guy like you. Local police were on the scene quickly, it is clear they

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had to wait for armed officers to arrive, prolonging the bloody

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theatre as the perpetrators harangued local people. Witnesses

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suggest that once the armed police were there, the attackers rushed

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them. Two men, who we believed from earlier reports to be carrying

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weapons were shot by police. They have both been taken to separate

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London hospitals and are receiving treatment for their injuries.

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pictures show the attackers, who, moments earlier, had been shouting

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Islamist slogans, lying wounded in the street. Get back, get back!

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Move back! Tonight there were fears in community about tensions.

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Nothing has ever happened like this in Woolich before. I think there

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are lots of different communities that live in Woolich. I think some

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people will use this as a reason to attack these, this community that

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has done this to this man. Even as the assaliants were taken to

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hospital, the cabinet, emergency committee, COBRA was being summoned

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under the chairmanship of Theresa May, where it heard reports from

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the police and Security Service. The Prime Minister, meanwhile, who

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was on the continent for talks, made this statement in Paris.

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Tonight our thoughts should be with the victim, with their family, with

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their friends. People across Britain, people in every community,

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I believe, will utterly condemn this attack. We have had these

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sorts of attacks before in our country, and we never buckle in the

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face of them. The scene in Woolich is the subject now of intense

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investigation. But there will be other lines of inquiry being

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pursued tonight. Did the attackers act alone? And had they, at some

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point, been under official surveillance? Our correspondent

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Richard Watson has for many years reported on terrorism and extremism

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in the UK. He's here now. Do you know anything about this suspect?

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Well none of this is confirmed at this stage. But about an hour-and-

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a-half ago I received a very interesting phone call from a

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source who knows the British Jihadi scene very well. This source said

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that one of the attackers was Nigerian in origin, and has been

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living in the UK for many year. He was radicalised by the Islamist

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group Alma haj roon in 2003. Now most controversially he suggested

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to me that just last year this young man was stopped or arrested,

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we don't know which at the moment, on his way to join Al-Shabab in

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Somalia. We can't confirm that at the moment, but that is what I have

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been told tonight. If that was true he would be obviously known to the

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police? That is the suggestion, yes. That is remaining unconfirmed. If

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he is known to the police, of course, we open up the territory of

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what did they know about Mohammed Sadique Khan back in 2005, it opens

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up this territory. This attack, shocking, horrific, very different

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in character to something like the 7/7 attack? Very different. It is

:07:31.:07:41.
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hard to say with certainty. If you look at 7/7, tribal areas and

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Mohammed Khan went out there for training. This appears to be a much

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more discreet attack from lone wolves, who seem to have taken it

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upon themselves to carry out this attack radicalised, possibly, by

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the Internet. We don't know. Let's speak to the former Home Secretary

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Lord Reid, and Lord Carlyle, the independent reviewer of anti-

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terrorism legislation from 2001- 2011, and Nawaz, a former member of

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an Islamist organisation, who later founded a Quilliam Foundation, a

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counter extremist think-tank. This was shocking but entirely

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unexpected this sort of attack? know we are under a "substantial"

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threat, we know that. We know that there have been a huge number of

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plots in the fast, foiled successfully by the security forces

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by and large. And we also know there has been a change from just

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being centrally determined and controlled attacks throughout the

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world, to more of what Richard Wilson called Lone Wolf attacks. It

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makes it much more difficult for the Security Services. They tend to

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require less time and planning. They are more ad hoc, more

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opportunist, there is less communication data going back

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across the world. There is less contact. And therefore, they are

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more difficult to counter in a way. The sense that Mumbai in a sense

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was that sort of attack. If this is one of these Lone Wolf attacks then

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it is pretty difficult to counter. Although Mumbai actually did, if I

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recall correctly, there was evidence of control from Pakistan?

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There was. The big plot that, thankfully we foiled here in 2006,

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which was the liquid bomb plot to bring down seven airliners with

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2,500 potential deaths, there was certainly contact internationally.

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That makes it easier to foil than a spontaneous attack without those

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communication links. Your reaction? My reaction is first of all this is

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a tragic event and our hearts must go out to the family of the man who

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was killed. Secondly, I think this is the kind of attack which,

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because of Mumbai, we have been predicting for quite a time in this

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country. The control authorities, the police and Security Service,

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have been working very hard to prevent it. I think we have to

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learn proportionate lesson from what has occur, we mustn't rush to

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judgment. We must ensure the police and the Security Service have for

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the future the tools they need, which will enable them to prevent

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it kind of attack taking place. I hope this will give the Government

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pause for thought about their abandonment, for example, of the

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communications data bill, and possibly pause for thought about

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converting control orders into what are now called TPIMs, with a

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diluted set of powers. You are not suggesting either of those things

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had anything to do with today's attack? I'm not suggesting that,

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but I'm suggesting that the powers that existed in the past make it

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more likely that other attacks can be prevented in the future. Lone

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wolves, even though they are always inevitably connected at least with

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internet training, are very difficult to catch. So we must give

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the authorities proportionate tools to catch them. Maajid Nawaz, what

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really strikes you about this attack today? What strikes me about

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this attack is in fact the way in which, so much of it was theatre.

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So much was them standing around after speaking to members of the

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public. To not only justify their actions but speaking to the cameras

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with a view to knowing the police were on their way. Almost in a

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fatalistic sense wanting to be caught so they could have a form of

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a show trial. Orderly you would expect that something is thinking

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in a strategic way would retreat or come back to attack again, as the

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Boston bombers attempted to do. These individual wanted it to be

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about show. What I would say here, because we have heard reports of

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members of certain far right movements seeking to move to the

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area, and seeking vengence, first thing, a lot has changed since 7/7.

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One of the things that has changed is certain organisations we were

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rather dissatisfied in the past, in the way that they almost didn't

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condemn terrorist attacks, but instead started to focus in foreign

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policy have in this instance come forward and condemned the terrorism

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with no ifs and buts. The scene has changed among Muslim community

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groups, that is very important. is striking when you hear this guy

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speak, a guy speaking in a London accent about things happening in

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"our" country, I don't know which country he's talking about? This is

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very weird? This is the role we keep talking about that ideology

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plays. Where we have failed abysmaly in this country, in

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popularising counter narratives to this ideology that completely

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disconnects people, someone clearly speaking in London accent, and

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clearly killing one of his own citizens, and for a country he has

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never visited, and he has more affinity to people in another

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country than his own citizens. We need to popularising a counter

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narrative, and stopping this narrative of making Islam unpopular

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asism. I think the responsibility falls on Government to try to help

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create the counter narrative. The Internet has become a very powerful

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tool. One can learn how to make a bomb, unfor the that thely, on the

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Internet, one -- unfortunately on the Internet, one can listen to

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sermons on the interin the. We are not very good as a nation at

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creating a counter narrative that the goodies maybe win sometimes.

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What would that be like? There is a unit in Government, John Reid will

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know about it, that is designated to examine the Internet and try to

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help produce a counter narrative. It is the sort of thing that makes

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young men who may want to be radicalised as keen to look at a

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couldn'try view and counter picture as the terrorist narrative. First

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of all, at heart this is an ideolgical battle, this is not

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about Islam, it is about Islamism, the "ism" is the giveaway. It is

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the political imposition of people's will, through violence,

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through the use of a corruption of Islam. They have a narrative the

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basically Al-Qaeda narrative that blames the west for everything, and

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sees it as an anti-Muslim movement. We have not had an adequate

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narrative that explains the virtues of the society and the values on

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which they are based. Arising out of that narrative has to be action.

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This is the point I would make about tonight's news that others

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are arranging counter demonstrations. The purpose of this

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action is not just to destroy life today, it is not even just to

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propagandaise, it is to terrorise and disrupt the normal flow of life

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in this country. Those who seek to attack other communities as a

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result of this will be carrying out precisely the sort of division and

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disruption of British way of life, away from our communal

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collecttivity that the terrorists seek to enhance in the first place.

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So those who might think that they are, you know, attacking the

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terrorists by marching through a Muslim community or whatever, are

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actually following the path of the strategy the terrorists would like

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to see. I think it is very important we should hear senior

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Muslim leaders decribing the kind of opinions that were expressed on

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that clip as a heresy, and that it does not represent Muslim views in

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this country. Which is right isn't it? It doesn't represent anybody,

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they are a bizarre minority, but we must have this loadership?

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One of my colleagues was speaking to somebody earlier who said he had

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been speaking to some young Muslims this evening who were pleased at

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what had happened? We are finding any young Muslim who is angry the

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default, political expression that is currently out this there is --

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there is this perversion of Islam, the challenge we have is to replace

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that default. When you ask what the counter narrative looks like, there

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are ideas, leaders and symbols, if I ask you to think about the ideas,

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the narratives and leaders and symbols for Al-Qaeda-based

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extremism you can ease low think of them. Think of the equivalent in

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the Middle East for democratic active, who are the leaders, ideas

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and symbols in the Middle East you are hard pressed to see them.

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low because there is very little democracy there? And partly because

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the civil society activism involved is stifled. People are not able to

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express as much as they should be. We need to do more in that regard.

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Increased drone strike, targeted assassinations, more Guantanamos,

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the military option isn't the bee all and end you will solution. It

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is a short-term stopgap. We need to start focusing on the ideas debate

:16:58.:17:04.

and reclaiming and rebranding democratic culture among young

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disenfranchised Muslims. Let as turn quickly to what's likely to be

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happening now. You have sat in Theresa May's chair? Too often I

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fear. There was a meeting of COBRA, the cabinet committee today. That

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was going on for some time, at the end of which it was determined it

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was a form of terrorist attack. We understand that. What happens next?

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Well the first thing that happens is to establish the facts. The Home

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Secretary will be surrounded by her specialists, because the Home

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Secretary does not run these operations in a democracy. They are

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run by the police and Intelligence Service and so on. But she is

:17:41.:17:45.

accountable to the public and parliament. She has to ascertain

:17:45.:17:48.

the facts. Secondly she will be asking the questions as to whether

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anything else needs to be done, are there connections, are there other

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suspects, is there another threat from a group linked to this.

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Thirdly, about the Ministry of Defence, I'm sure Philip Hammond

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was there. If it was a soldier who was tragically murdered today, our

:18:04.:18:09.

thoughts would be with his family and, if it was, what is the

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security like at specific areas targeted for soldiers and so on.

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And then there is a question about whether you need to raise the

:18:17.:18:22.

national threat level from "substantial "up to perhaps as high

:18:22.:18:25.

as "critical". I don't think that is likely but that will be

:18:25.:18:28.

considered. If that is then raised as a result of that there is all

:18:28.:18:32.

sorts of operational ratchetting up of defence measures. All of that

:18:32.:18:38.

will be done in the first instance. Then they will turn their mind to

:18:38.:18:41.

some of the wider questions, hopefully, which is not only the

:18:41.:18:45.

investigations that are being carried out, but the questions like

:18:45.:18:50.

the nature of radicalisation of British people, the narrative that

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we talked about, you know. That is an on going process. How alarming

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are the unknowns? They are always alarming, I chaired this meeting,

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COBRA meeting, not only through terrorism, but through Litvenenko,

:19:08.:19:18.

and so on. There are always, to use one of the words of an American

:19:18.:19:21.

secretary, the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns. In some of

:19:21.:19:26.

the cases I was involved in we thought we had a pretty good grasp

:19:26.:19:30.

for a while of the number and nature of the people involved, only

:19:30.:19:34.

to discover late in the day there weren't six from this area there

:19:34.:19:38.

was as many as 20 from another area. That is where some of the measures

:19:38.:19:41.

which the Government has refused to implement, like data communications

:19:41.:19:45.

that were mentioned earlier, is absolutely essential for effective

:19:45.:19:50.

fighting of terrorism. I mean we, you will never find out whether you

:19:50.:19:55.

are right on this one until there is some huge tragedy that might

:19:55.:20:00.

have been averted if they had updated the communications

:20:00.:20:04.

appraisals a that can be carried out from GCHQ. This is a very

:20:04.:20:08.

important point. We must have proportionate laws, but there must

:20:08.:20:11.

be laws that are sufficient to meet need. When they see an example,

:20:11.:20:15.

this may be a small example of something much bigger that could

:20:15.:20:20.

happen, we must ensure the laws are fit for purpose. But we don't know

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whether that sort of interception of communications, monitoring of

:20:24.:20:27.

communications would have made any difference at all? But we do know

:20:27.:20:30.

it is extremely effective in catching organised criminals,

:20:30.:20:37.

murders and others, we know it is works, it is working in court up

:20:37.:20:41.

and down the country. Six or seven years ago had we not had that

:20:41.:20:46.

method of connecting people through their "communications", 2,500

:20:46.:20:50.

people would probably have been blown out of the sky over the UK.

:20:50.:20:55.

It was a vital component. But now people have moved on from mobile

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phones to internet, e-mail, text and Skype, we don't have the means

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of doing what we did six years ago. Thank you all very much.

:21:03.:21:08.

We will return to this story a little later in the programme.

:21:08.:21:13.

Now from hate to love. In all the noise about gay marriage these past

:21:13.:21:18.

few days, the bigger phenomenon, hell sexual marriage has been

:21:18.:21:21.

rather overlooked. It is, we are told, the basic building block of

:21:21.:21:24.

the state. Vital for the secure upbringing of children, and an

:21:24.:21:27.

institution in trouble, which almost all political parties claim

:21:27.:21:32.

to be keen to support. Should it be privileged over other types of

:21:32.:21:36.

family life? Before we talk it over we have this report and we begin

:21:36.:21:43.

with the question every couple get asked, "how did you two meet"?

:21:43.:21:47.

The moment you met? Moment, that is a bit hard to say, I walked across

:21:47.:21:52.

the floor and asked my wife for a dance. Asked me for a dance, and I

:21:52.:22:02.

said "I don't think so", no I didn't, I did say I would! I I had

:22:02.:22:06.

to warn her about her small dresses in the shop I used to run. He said

:22:06.:22:11.

I was showing too much leg and I would give the customers a heart

:22:11.:22:14.

attack! The tendency in those days was to grab the first female that

:22:14.:22:21.

you could. I gave her a kiss on New Year's Eve. So I know exactly to

:22:21.:22:27.

the second when that happened. we just kissed and that was it. We

:22:27.:22:37.
:22:37.:22:40.

just...Within A month I knew this was going to be the one.

:22:40.:22:45.

# I remember how I thrilled at the sight of you

:22:45.:22:49.

If you want to understand married life, you need to come to East

:22:49.:22:53.

Dorset. Two thirds of adults here are married. The highest proportion

:22:53.:23:02.

in all of England and Wales. Are you nervous? Not at the moment, I'm

:23:02.:23:08.

OK at the moment. Kayleigh Wallis is surprisingly calm. Maybe that's

:23:08.:23:12.

because, like many brides, she already lives with the groom, and

:23:12.:23:20.

they have had a baby together. Do you think you now feel something

:23:20.:23:26.

has fundamentally changed? Yes. What is that? It feels like you

:23:26.:23:30.

have found the missing piece. Connected in a way. Another way of

:23:30.:23:34.

connecting and feeling closer. bonds you together more. You are

:23:34.:23:37.

standing up in front of all your friend and family to say I'm

:23:37.:23:46.

committed to this relationship. kiss for the bride, please.

:23:46.:23:51.

Marriage has been in decline for decades. Roughly half the number of

:23:52.:23:57.

people get married today compared to 1970. 42% of marriages end in

:23:57.:24:04.

divorce. But the number of people cohabiting has increased

:24:04.:24:09.

dramatically since 1979. Today one in six people cohabit. In terms of

:24:09.:24:13.

break-ups involving children, fewer than one in ten married couples

:24:13.:24:18.

will split up by their first child's fifth birthday. For

:24:18.:24:27.

cohabiting couple it is one in three. Do you think marriage is

:24:27.:24:34.

important for society? Yes. Yes I do. For people like Mark and

:24:34.:24:38.

Kayleigh and these two here, definitely to be together, and it

:24:38.:24:43.

is good to be married. For your children, it is nice to have your

:24:43.:24:47.

mum and dad together. Unlike me I grew up with just a mother. That is

:24:47.:24:52.

probably why I wouldn't get married. But not everyone is convinced that

:24:52.:24:57.

marriage benefits children. Without the pressure of marriage some

:24:57.:25:01.

relationships work better. sound like you are talking from

:25:01.:25:04.

experience? I was married for seven years. My husband left me a year

:25:04.:25:09.

ago. We tried to stick it out for the children but it wasn't fair on

:25:09.:25:15.

them. The UK has won of the highest rates of family breakdown in the

:25:15.:25:18.

western world. Children in Britain are less likely to live with both

:25:18.:25:25.

parents than children in Germany, France, and the US. Fewer than 70%

:25:25.:25:35.
:25:35.:25:36.

live with their mother and father. # I remember how I thrilled at the

:25:36.:25:40.

sight of you # I remember

:25:40.:25:45.

At this bowls club, more than 600 years worth of marriage is playing

:25:45.:25:51.

out on the green. Almost all of the couples playing

:25:51.:25:55.

have been married for more than 40 years. So how have they managed to

:25:56.:26:00.

stay together for so long? Is there something special about the

:26:00.:26:04.

institution of marriage that's kept them united. Or is it more about

:26:04.:26:08.

them as people, their characteristics that we need to

:26:08.:26:13.

understand? On that question experts don't agree.

:26:13.:26:16.

Getting married is a different level all together. You have a very

:26:16.:26:22.

public commitment in front of family, friends, the state, the

:26:23.:26:26.

community. It is clear and it is much harder to get married and it

:26:26.:26:29.

is much harder to get out of being married. There is a very public

:26:29.:26:34.

commitment there. Couples that get matter yod have different

:26:34.:26:37.

characteristics -- married have different characteristics to those

:26:37.:26:40.

who cohabit. We can observe them easily. The couples who choose to

:26:40.:26:44.

get matter yod have higher levels of education and higher

:26:44.:26:47.

professional occupations, they are more likely to own their own home

:26:47.:26:50.

and have higher incomes. Lots of these factors will contribute to

:26:50.:26:54.

whether they separate or not in the long-term. Marriage amongst high

:26:54.:26:58.

income groups is on the rise, 66% of people in the top social class,

:26:58.:27:04.

such Assenor managers, are married. Whilst only 44 -- such as senior

:27:04.:27:13.

managers are married, why only 44% in the other groups, such as manual

:27:13.:27:16.

worker. Norman and Lorna have been married for 55 years, they think

:27:16.:27:21.

young couples could do with help from the Government. Times are not

:27:21.:27:27.

easy at the moment. If they are living in a flat you still have to

:27:27.:27:33.

buy furniture, anything to help people get started. That's it. I

:27:33.:27:37.

know these days people start off when they get married and want

:27:37.:27:41.

everything. We started, we got married we had a bed a kitchen

:27:41.:27:46.

table and two chairs. When we had visitors they sat on boxes and

:27:46.:27:56.
:27:56.:27:58.

things because we couldn't afford it. You brush up nice? You can see

:27:58.:28:05.

why I fell for him. Let as face it, she was a smasher. Len and Diana

:28:05.:28:09.

have been married for 62 years. Do you think that it is any business

:28:09.:28:13.

of the Government whether people are married or not? No. No business

:28:13.:28:18.

at all. Definitely not. No. It is a personal thing between a couple. It

:28:18.:28:24.

is nothing to do with the Government at all. Why they want to

:28:24.:28:34.
:28:34.:28:34.

poke their noses in! Knowss -- noses! I really don't know.

:28:34.:28:38.

Arguments may rage about what this certificate means. But perhaps it

:28:38.:28:45.

is laughter that makes a marriage worth the paper it is written on.

:28:45.:28:52.

My wife had a hip operation, right. Oh! And when she came home they had

:28:52.:28:56.

given her mechanical fingers to put her knickers on. I said that's

:28:56.:28:59.

bloody stupid what are you doing that for, I will put your knickers

:28:59.:29:03.

up, I got them half way up and I thought bloody hell I must be old

:29:03.:29:13.
:29:13.:29:15.

because I was trying to get these off years ago! Don't put that on

:29:15.:29:22.

television for good's sake! Well now here to discuss the ins and

:29:22.:29:27.

outs of marriage are Harry Benson from The Marriage Foundation, a

:29:27.:29:32.

group that campaigns in favour of marriage. Claire Paye a campaigner

:29:32.:29:40.

for Mothers at Home Matter. Natlie Bennett from the left-leaning think

:29:41.:29:47.

tank. And Fiona Millar, who lives in what used to be called "sin".

:29:47.:29:51.

What business, can you answer that question that couple were perplexed

:29:51.:29:53.

by, what business is it of the Government whether people are

:29:53.:29:57.

married or not? It is a great question. You would think if all

:29:57.:30:00.

relationships were the same it wouldn't make any difference. But

:30:00.:30:04.

the Government is deeply involved in family life already. If I took

:30:04.:30:11.

you into a secondary school and I introduced you to 100 teenagers

:30:11.:30:18.

about to start their GCSE exam, of that 100 teenagers 45 are not

:30:18.:30:21.

living with both their natural parents. That is where the cost of

:30:21.:30:26.

family breakdown has spiralled out of control. 45% of kids are now

:30:26.:30:29.

living without their natural parents, and the state spends an

:30:29.:30:33.

absolute fortune, rightly, protecting and supporting lone

:30:33.:30:39.

parent families. Fiona Millar? respond to that? I think if you are

:30:39.:30:43.

talking about the reasons children don't achieve. They are complicate.

:30:43.:30:46.

We know there is a correlation between married couples and

:30:46.:30:49.

outcomes for children. We don't know there is a causal link. There

:30:49.:30:52.

are a lot of other reasons why children don't achieve. The state

:30:52.:30:56.

has a business looking into people's, having policy for

:30:56.:30:59.

people's personal lives, and families lives. It should be to

:30:59.:31:05.

support families in whatever form they come. Not simply families in a

:31:05.:31:09.

married couple. So don't make a big deal of marriage? You are talking

:31:09.:31:14.

about stability and commitment for children. There can be even with

:31:14.:31:18.

parents who separate. Why wouldn't you just penalise people who get

:31:18.:31:21.

divorced then. The Government could fine people for getting divorced?

:31:21.:31:24.

Don't you think people are penalised enough when they get

:31:24.:31:28.

divorced. Let's look at what works, of the 55 kids I have introduced

:31:28.:31:36.

you to in year nine b to start their GCSEs, of those 55 kids whose

:31:36.:31:46.

parents are still intact, 51 out of 55 are married. It is the model who

:31:46.:31:50.

work, gorgeous fe Fiona who has made it work is an exception.

:31:50.:31:54.

don't think I am an exception, there are lots of successful family

:31:54.:31:58.

models that don't involve marriage. It is about the quality of

:31:58.:32:01.

relationship rather than status. We know children do well in loving

:32:01.:32:04.

warm environments, that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be

:32:04.:32:08.

married environments. It means that you need to support the quality of

:32:08.:32:12.

that relationship and the stability in that household. Kid will do much

:32:12.:32:16.

better in a household where it is loving and warm rather than in a

:32:16.:32:20.

married household where the parents are in conflict and arguing all the

:32:20.:32:23.

time. What is it specifically about marriage that makes it a better

:32:23.:32:26.

environment to bring up children in? It is the commitment and

:32:26.:32:29.

stability. I think Harry has mentioned the statistics behind it.

:32:29.:32:33.

That you just are more likely to separate if you are cohabiting than

:32:33.:32:36.

if you are married. To get married, at some point you have discussed

:32:36.:32:39.

your long-term future, you have said I want to marry you, you

:32:39.:32:43.

haven't just ended up living together and then carrying on

:32:43.:32:47.

because nothing else has happened in the meantime. You have discussed

:32:47.:32:52.

it, you have committed. And you are married. Sorry, but I do think, to

:32:52.:32:56.

compare people who are cohabiting to those who are married is not a

:32:56.:33:00.

like-for-like comparison, in a way. Most people cohabit before they

:33:00.:33:03.

choose to get married, if that is what they choose to decide. It is

:33:03.:33:09.

not really comparing like-for-like, it is kind of unfair to say that

:33:09.:33:13.

those cohabiting have a different range, the data is more complicated

:33:13.:33:17.

than that. Tell me to back off if I'm prying here, why did you make

:33:17.:33:21.

the different decision, which was the decision not to get married?

:33:21.:33:26.

Well I have always felt that marriage was a bit of a patriarchal

:33:26.:33:30.

institution, I'm not religious, the ceremony doesn't appeal to me at

:33:30.:33:34.

all. Since your researcher phoned me up to talk about this programme,

:33:34.:33:37.

I thought about the reasons more than 33 years. I could never think

:33:37.:33:41.

of a good reason to do it. It was not a reason to do it but not to do

:33:41.:33:43.

it. We have a commitment to each other, we have three children, we

:33:43.:33:48.

had our ups and downs, well chronicled in his diaries, I'm sure

:33:48.:33:51.

everyone knows about them, we stuck together for 33 years and there is

:33:51.:33:56.

a form of commitment and stability. Frankly I hear it offensive to hear

:33:56.:33:59.

from politicians that our form of family life is any less valid than

:33:59.:34:04.

those with a ring on the finger. Perhaps they are saying it is

:34:04.:34:07.

slightly more vulnerable? If the commitment is there it doesn't

:34:07.:34:11.

matter if you are cohabiting or married. You have to look at the

:34:11.:34:14.

underlying reasons why people stick together. I'm not sure that

:34:14.:34:18.

marriage ceremonies are the reason. There is a correlation, but is that

:34:18.:34:21.

the cause. You are more or less assuming, are you not, that

:34:21.:34:26.

children are better brought up by two parents than one? I'm not. It

:34:26.:34:29.

is the choice we have made and a lot of people do make of it. I can

:34:29.:34:34.

think of many successful families that don't have two parents and the

:34:34.:34:37.

children achieve extremely well. You have to be very careful about

:34:37.:34:40.

making judgments about the right type of family model and the wrong

:34:40.:34:44.

type of family model. These judgments are made all the time. If

:34:44.:34:47.

we were to take your argument seriously, what mechanism should be

:34:47.:34:52.

imposed to try to get people to get married and stay married? I think

:34:52.:34:56.

you can't get away from this basic fact that 51 out of 55 kids in this

:34:56.:35:00.

case are living in intact married families. You have said that, come

:35:00.:35:03.

on tell us how you think the Government could get people to get

:35:03.:35:07.

married and stay married? OK, the first thing is that the current

:35:07.:35:14.

Government policy actually penalises married couples, how it

:35:14.:35:18.

does that is at the low end, if you are receiving tax credits if

:35:18.:35:21.

somebody moves in with you their income comes into our household and

:35:21.:35:25.

you lose your tax credits, that is called the couple penalty. It is

:35:25.:35:29.

well known. I spoke to a mate of mine this report, happily married,

:35:29.:35:33.

he said he already worked out if he and his wife split up they would be

:35:34.:35:37.

so much better off than if they were living together. That is

:35:37.:35:40.

utterly mad. A marriage tax break would be one of the ways of

:35:40.:35:45.

righting that wrong. How much money do you think it would take to

:35:45.:35:49.

persuade someone to get married and stay married? I don't think it is

:35:49.:35:52.

the amount of money to persuade people to get married. You are the

:35:52.:35:57.

people child benefit, it doesn't cause people to have children, we

:35:57.:36:00.

pay pensions and it doesn't cause people to get old. Giving a

:36:00.:36:03.

marriage tax break would be a good thing because it is a good thing,

:36:03.:36:07.

because most people who actually make their relationships work are

:36:07.:36:13.

married. And the state would then be recognising that. Is there any

:36:13.:36:17.

way of measuring a feings inducement to get this what is

:36:17.:36:21.

perceived to be a good thing in the Government's mind to work? I find

:36:21.:36:25.

it very hard to believe and haven't seen any evidence to support that

:36:25.:36:28.

people would get married or stay married because of a marriage tax

:36:29.:36:33.

break. What we are seeing in Relate, the charity are seeing an increase

:36:33.:36:37.

with people under financial pressure coming to them. I think it

:36:37.:36:42.

is about supporting families at times of financial pressure.

:36:42.:36:45.

Affordable childcare, shared parental leave. Those kinds of

:36:45.:36:48.

policies I think would have a far greater impact than something like

:36:48.:36:52.

a marriage tax break. David Cameron is talking about something between

:36:52.:36:55.

�150, would you get married for that? Not because David Cameron

:36:55.:37:02.

told me to. That is for sure. �50 probably not. But at my time of

:37:02.:37:05.

life, coming through the other end, our children are grown up now,

:37:05.:37:09.

there is a great advantage in being married because of the situation

:37:09.:37:13.

with inheritance tax. I think we should be equalising the situation

:37:13.:37:18.

so cohabiting hetrosexual couples can have civil partnerships as well.

:37:18.:37:21.

I'm penalised now. Do you think that couples should stay together

:37:21.:37:25.

for the sake of the children, because it is a better environment?

:37:25.:37:28.

I think the ideal situation is where you have a couple who are

:37:28.:37:31.

happily married, who love each other, where they can look after

:37:31.:37:35.

their children the way they want to, so if the mother or father wants to

:37:35.:37:40.

stay at home full-time they can. If one of them wants to work they can.

:37:40.:37:44.

And that is a fantastic environment to bring children up in it is

:37:44.:37:47.

stable and loving. It might exist, but most of us have to make

:37:47.:37:51.

compromises in life? You can look at the ideal and say how close can

:37:51.:37:58.

we get to that. It doesn't deny the fact it is an ideal, if you can

:37:58.:38:05.

have a couple happily married, committed to the children, who

:38:05.:38:07.

remain committed to the children throughout their lives. Do you

:38:07.:38:11.

think a single parent is less capable of doing such a good job?

:38:11.:38:17.

Not at all. Why worry about it? is great if you can have a father

:38:17.:38:23.

and a mother. So you assert, where is the evidence? Because when you

:38:23.:38:27.

have parents living together you develop attachments, you develop

:38:27.:38:30.

bonding with the children. I have to say sometimes my husband works

:38:30.:38:34.

away, it is much easier when he's around that the children get a

:38:34.:38:37.

balanced approach to being brought up. They have the male version and

:38:37.:38:41.

the female version. And that works really well. It is very hard when

:38:41.:38:45.

I'm on my own. What is the evidence on this? Families are far more

:38:45.:38:48.

diverse, I don't think that's, families thrive in different

:38:48.:38:51.

environment, I think when people are able to make choices that work

:38:51.:38:54.

for them, that is when kids do really well. That is when you get a

:38:54.:38:59.

loving and supporting home that children and couples and people on

:38:59.:39:03.

their own who make that decision thrive on. At the moment a lot of

:39:03.:39:12.

families can't make the choices they want. If you are a single

:39:12.:39:17.

parent family you are more penalised in the taxies it, single

:39:17.:39:22.

income families are penalised in the tax system, rather than a

:39:22.:39:27.

double income family, you pay �2,500 more than a dual income

:39:27.:39:30.

family. A lot of people can't afford to stay at home and look

:39:30.:39:35.

after the children or work part- time. A lot of people do have to

:39:35.:39:39.

work. In some cohabiting couples people stay at home and look after

:39:39.:39:43.

the children. There aren't hard and fast rules. If parents separate I

:39:43.:39:46.

think it is partly the role of the state to help support that family

:39:46.:39:50.

to maintain good relationships with both parents. What we are saying is

:39:50.:39:54.

it is important for children to have a relationship with both

:39:54.:39:57.

parents if they can in both situation. Sometimes it is not

:39:57.:40:01.

right for people to stay together. When you look at the growth in

:40:01.:40:05.

divorce and cohabiting couples and children born out of wedlock. The

:40:05.:40:10.

fact there is no longer any stigma against either divorcees or bass

:40:10.:40:14.

standards, there is no stiing -- bastards, there is no stigma

:40:15.:40:19.

because children see all sorts of models in school. Is it a bad or

:40:19.:40:24.

good thing? I want to pick you up on this idea of being more divorce.

:40:25.:40:29.

There isn't. There is a lot more than in 1950? Compared to 1950, but

:40:29.:40:34.

compared to 1980 it is not true. We had a one million lone parent

:40:34.:40:38.

families in 1980 there are two million today. We have less divorce

:40:38.:40:42.

than in 1980. You have to explain if it is all the background factors

:40:42.:40:46.

that are supposedly the reason why families are spliting up, you have

:40:46.:40:50.

to explain why family breakdown has doubled, it is the trend away from

:40:50.:40:54.

marriage, that is the reason we have our 45 out of 100-kids who are

:40:54.:40:58.

living without both natural parents. One of the fascinating thing is the

:40:58.:41:03.

success of marriage, if you think there isn't any stigma attached to

:41:03.:41:06.

be unmarried, there aren't the economic reasons for women to have

:41:06.:41:10.

to get married and so many people are still getting married, you

:41:10.:41:14.

should be celebrating the fact it is still so popular. It is the

:41:14.:41:17.

grain of human behaviour. Don't judge those who don't make the

:41:17.:41:21.

decision. I'm not. That is the way the arguments are presented.

:41:21.:41:24.

Government policy should go with the grain of human behaviour, we

:41:24.:41:28.

want to stay together as couples. Few people set out wanting to be

:41:28.:41:32.

lone parents, we should support lone parents and marriage as well.

:41:32.:41:36.

It is stigmatising for lone parents to be told the married couple model

:41:36.:41:40.

is the best one. If you hear it that way. I hear it that way, I

:41:40.:41:44.

have been living with the same person for 33 years and three grown

:41:45.:41:48.

up children, I hear our model of family life and parenting and

:41:48.:41:52.

relationship is not as good as somebody else's. Let me say on

:41:52.:41:58.

behalf of myself and my family and The Marriage Foundation and anyone

:41:58.:42:02.

who represents families, I love lone parent families. I'm not a

:42:02.:42:08.

lone parent family. We should support them, but we should support

:42:08.:42:13.

married families. And unmarried families? That is the, if I told

:42:13.:42:19.

you my uncle had died aged 90 having smoked 60fags a day he is

:42:19.:42:22.

the exception not the rule. You can't tell everyone not to smoke

:42:22.:42:29.

because he has done OK. Fiona has done OK but she's the exceptional.

:42:29.:42:34.

Lots of marriages fail too? Tiny numbers of unmarried couples make

:42:34.:42:39.

it through. Not tiny numbers, a smaller proportion than married

:42:39.:42:42.

couples. The numbers are different to begin with. You can't compare

:42:42.:42:45.

married to cohabiting families. You have to accept and reflect that

:42:45.:42:48.

society is different and there are far more, it is different family

:42:48.:42:52.

types, and people are making choices that work for them and it

:42:52.:42:56.

is dynamic. Not everyone will remain in the same relationship

:42:56.:42:58.

status throughout. You know they will change and different

:42:58.:43:02.

environments will work differently. One of the reasons Fiona is here,

:43:02.:43:06.

other than her great contribution is we are slightly surprised that

:43:06.:43:12.

someone has been cohabiting for 33 years stim together. I don't know

:43:12.:43:16.

why our joorb is still together. I don't know why you are surprised,

:43:16.:43:20.

he's a pussy cat. Knowing her partner, if you had a married

:43:20.:43:23.

couple married for 33 years that would be less significant. We have

:43:23.:43:27.

looked for someone who has been cohabiting for 33 years and made it

:43:27.:43:32.

so obviously your model. All my married friends are now divorced,

:43:32.:43:37.

seriously. Choose your friends wisely.

:43:37.:43:43.

Let's return to our main story. That is the attack in broad

:43:43.:43:47.

daylight this afternoon in Woolich where a man, believed to be a

:43:47.:43:51.

British soldier was hacked to death, the Home Secretary says it was an

:43:51.:43:56.

attack on everyone in the UK. After the attack the two men were shot by

:43:56.:44:00.

police and are now under armed guard in hospital. Richard Watson

:44:00.:44:03.

is here again. What are the options the Government will be looking at

:44:04.:44:08.

now? I think they will be taking a very close look at the preventing

:44:08.:44:15.

violent extreme policy, which has been in place for some years now.

:44:15.:44:20.

Called PREVENT for short. This is to encourage people in the Muslim

:44:20.:44:24.

community to come forward with community intelligence with

:44:24.:44:28.

information about extremists in their midst. The question is who

:44:28.:44:34.

did these men know, they have been around since 2003 and converted to

:44:34.:44:38.

Islam then. Who knew what they were doing, did anyone know if they held

:44:38.:44:42.

extreme views and did they report it to the police? There is one note

:44:42.:44:46.

of caution from another source of mine tonight who said, look, we

:44:46.:44:51.

have a serious problem in the UK at the moment. He was speaking to some

:44:51.:44:56.

young British Muslims today after this attack and actually they

:44:56.:45:00.

expressed a certain satisfaction to him about today's attack. Saying

:45:00.:45:04.

this was a good thing. Very shocking if true. I think it shows

:45:04.:45:09.

the depth of the problem that we do face. Although they, they are

:45:09.:45:16.

totally unrepresented and a tiny minority? A tiny minority, even

:45:16.:45:19.

though they are a tiny minority, if you have these views even amongst a

:45:19.:45:23.

tiny number of people, it presents a serious problem to the police and

:45:23.:45:26.

Security Service. Thank you very much indeed. Not surprisingly this

:45:26.:45:30.

terrible attack is on the front page of many and all of the

:45:30.:45:40.
:45:40.:46:01.

That's all for tonight, until That's all for tonight, until

:46:01.:46:11.
:46:11.:46:33.

tomorrow, goodnight. Good evening, a cold wind flows across tonight

:46:33.:46:36.

into tomorrow. Showers further south. Most across eing and Wales

:46:36.:46:41.

start dry with sunshine. Cloudy in the north. Filtering down in the

:46:41.:46:48.

strengthening wind. Even if you leave with house -- with sunshine

:46:48.:46:53.

overhead it won't stay like that. The showers not as heavy as in the

:46:53.:46:57.

morning. Wind and snow across the high grounds. Blizzard conditions

:46:57.:47:02.

on the top of the Grampians. Strong and gusty wind making it feel cold.

:47:02.:47:05.

Heavy showers late morning and early afternoon, central and

:47:05.:47:08.

southern areas this is where the heavy showers with under thiser and

:47:08.:47:14.

hail mixed in will be for the second half of the day.

:47:14.:47:18.

Temperatures across the country 9- 16. The heavier showers could have

:47:18.:47:23.

some snow mixed in on the tops of the hills. Particularly for

:47:23.:47:27.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman. What can we learn from the atrocity that left a soldier dead in Woolwich? And what has the government got to do with marriage?


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