07/06/2013 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.

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Tonight, what's bugging you? Or rather who? A top secret US spy


programme has been gathering information from some of the


biggest internet companies, and it is alleged, sharing it with the


British Security Services. can't have 100% security and also


then have 100% privacy and zero inconvenience. Also tonight, how do


you live with cancer? In a few years half of us will get the


disease at some point during our lifetimes. We hear the


extraordinary story of a mother and daughter who have survived ovarian


cancer. The man called the punk poet, John


Cooper Clarke tells us why the Education Secretary is right about


children reciting poetry by heart and gives us a few lines of his own.


I knew a fella called frank, his wife was a bit of a skank, he wrote


down her pin before doing her in and laughed all the way to the bank.


Good evening, in the aftermath of the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby in


Woolich. Some politicians have tried to push forward with what was


formerly known as the communications data Bill. As a


nation, like the United States, we are sensitive of anything that


smacks of Big Brother spying on our private communications. Gentlemen


do not open each other's male is how one former US Secretary of


State once put it. But today it was revealed that gentlemen and


gentlewomen at GCHQ may be taking advantage of a US secret spying


programme called Prism to obtain information from internet companies.


We have been examining the special relationship between Britain's GCHQ


and its American counterpart, the National Security Agency.


Over the past 36 hours there have been mushrooming allegations about


the extent to which intelligence agencies in the US and the UK are


covertly collecting information on their citizens. The National


Security Agency, or NSA is a vast US wiretaping agency, whose job is


to gather information. The agency has now been found out to be


gathering information on the on- line activities of potentially the


entire population. No surprise there, you might say, though others


are shocked at the implication for individual privacy. It is startling


news because we thought we had some idea of what President Bush was


doing in the warrantless programmes in terms of obtaining domestic data,


we knew a lot of continued under Obama. It turpbt out there is this


six-year-old programme that grew up without anyone knowing it. It


involves tapping in, fairly directly to the databases of the


world's largest internet and communications companies. So what's


being alleged? First came revelations in the Guardian of a


secret order directing phone company Verizo to pass records to


the NSA on millions of its customers. Though not the content


of course themselves. Then last night the Washington Post claimed


the Government's data mining operation goes far further. Through


a programme called Prism. The existence of which US authorities


have now confirmed. Four slides from what's in reality a very dull


looking power point presentation have been released by the


Washington Post. They give us some information on Prism, naming the


Internet brands it says have joined and when. With Microsoft first in


2007, then Yahoo, Google, Facebook, Paltalk, YouTube, Skype, AOL and


Apple the most recent last year. Facebook say they don't know


anything about a Prism programme, others say the same. Some deny they


have given the Government direct access to their servers. It is


important to them symbolically and for perhaps some other reasons to


say you don't have your hooks straight into our server, there is


another black box inbetween that we have knowledge of. The effect is


the same, if you are sitting in Fort Mead the head of the security


agency, you have push button access to the material that is in their


server that fits the lawful search criteria. Some people following the


issue closely suspected this kind of thing was going on. Having said


that in the face of a lot of denials from the US Government and


their allies that they were doing this kind of thing to see the


smoking gun, if you like, the actual court order, the actual


details of this Prism programme, it is quite surprising even for those


people. The power point goes on to boast of the kinds of electronic


communications it can spy on. Listing e-mail, chat, video voice,


videos, photos, stored data VoIP, file transfers, video conferencing,


notifications of target activity, social networking and cryptically,


special requests. The big thing that has changed in the last two or


three years, that means you need the co-operation of the technology


companies to get access to some of this data is the fact that they


have switched on encryption by default for their services. When


you as a G mail or hotmail user connects to Microsoft servers now,


by default the communication will be encrypted. It is no longer the


case that intelligence agencies can listen in between you and the


server. They have to go to the server to get the data. The UK take


on this story emerged this afternoon, with further claims by


the Guardian Newspaper that Britain's own electronic listening


post, GCHQ, has also been gathering data through The Prisoner programme.


GCHQ itself says it operates within a strict legal and policy framework,


with rigorous oversight. The claims are already prompting opposition


questions about the precise nature of the UK's relationship with Prism.


Our generation was the generation that got on-line. We have seen this


massive internet grow up and it is bringing us all so much more


connectivity and all the benefits we have seen. Now we are starting


to realise that we have sort of built a monster. This very same net


if work can be used to monitor us better than George Orwell could


ever have imagined. That is a sad thing to think about. But we now


have a Big Brother. It actually isn't even a domestic Big Brother


it is a foreign Big Brother. moral high ground matters to


technology companies, because they need their customers to trust them.


If, as some here are now suggesting, Prism is a snooper's charter by the


back door, that trust is at risk. We have the author of Trading


Secrets about the Intelligence Services, and Julian Huppert is a


Lib Dem MP campaigning against the Communications Data Bill. GCHQ is


really clear on this, very strong on this, they say they are take


their obligations within the law very certificate why isly, in


accordance with a strict -- seriously, in accordance with a


strict policy framework and they don't break the law? That is what


they are saying, I hope so. GCHQ do essential work, they do make us


safe. There is always a question about the balances about what they


should and shouldn't be allowed to do. The Communications Data Bill


went far too far. We need it make sure there hasn't been any activity


that is essentially trying to bypass the law. But looking for


loopholes, like with tax issues. Bypass the law, if it was within


the law, if it was within the law, however distasteful you may find it,


is it perfectly OK for GCHQ to be involved with something called


Prism? I think this is like the example of some of the tax


avoidance people have happened. But they are not strictly legal but not


moral, we wouldn't expect people to do it. It is a sticky subject,


morally when it comes to terrorism, there are different questions there.


But the questions of efficacy, does it work and stop another 9/11, or a


"severn"? That is absolutely the right d -- Or a 7/7?That is


absolutely the question. The other issue is the US having the ability


to look at what UK citizens are doing, any UK business that uses


Gmail or hotmail are using these systems is available to the US


Government, what are the safeguards and what can happen with that data.


We heard President Obama reassuring people saying it is only American,


sorry American citizens are protected from this, what about the


rest of us. That is the him hypocrisy of the Communications


Data Bill, then it would be under British rules and regulations, it


is happening everywhere and the Americans are doing it? It is a


shock the Americans are doing it. I don't think the fact that the


Americans are doing something that we all find surprising and goes too


far, it means we in Britain should try to do something further as well.


I don't think it is an excuse to say the British Government should


keep logs of every website you go to and some of these companies


providing more data. What do you think they are looking for here.


There is so much information out there, what's the needle in the


haystack? I think that it's the case that the ability to data mine,


to trawl through millions and millions of different pieces of


communication has to some extent become a sort of law unto itself.


The fact that it can be done is one of the reasons why it is being done.


Sorry to interrupt, in a sense that chap in the film was saying Big


Brother is already here, we have created this monster forks all the


great things the Internet does, he -- monster, for all the great


things the Internet does this is here? For all individuals to be


able to communicate globally for any time of their choosing the


Internet was greated now that freedom is being infringed in


certain ways by being used against people who are ready to be free.


One sends an e-mail thinking it is between you and the recipient,


clearly it is not. How far though, people sitting at home thinking I


have nothing to hide, what I put on Facebook, it might be embarrassing,


pictures of people on the beach, but I have nothing to hide, what


really is the problem here? I think most people would be concerned


about all of this stuff coming out F we take the web logging, if


somebody goes to an abortion counselling website, something


about divorce or depression, that is quite sensitive information they


wouldn't want everybody to know. The NSA is not likely to be


interested in that stuff? Once you collect the data, proposed in the


UK, once you collect that data there is a risk it can leak out and


people get access to it. It is a question of trust isn't it, that is


the real issue. We just don't want Big Brother to be looking at our


mail in any sense? It is trust in two things, it is trust in the


companies that are our providers. It is also trust in Government.


Clearly the NSA is the world's leading signals intelligence agency.


It is a key part of the American intelligence apparatus. It is going


to take a lot for the White House to be able to convince Americans


that as President Obama said we're not listening to your phone calls.


He said it clearly, whether people believe him will be another thing.


I wonder how surprised you were about this, the one thing that


struck me that is surprising is this has come in some way from the


NSA itself. You don't get leaked documents talking about that. No


such agency is what people used to say NSA stood for? The NSA is a


tight low- guarded institution. It was undoubted -- tight low- guarded


institution, it was undoubtedly the most garden of the the American


agencies. Listening to the Washington Post earlier today, the


source expects to be exposed. He is prepared to be exposed. Given what


happened to Bradley Manning that could be a harsh thing. Do you


think this will change how we use the Internet. People will think is


somebody going to read the stuff? hope people will be more conscious


of what happens. Some of the messages aren't as proift as they


are. We have so much more we -- private as they are. We have so


much more to understand, we have to understand what GCHSQ is on about,


and about cyber security, what should we say to British


individuals and companies about how to use these services. Should they


be far, far more careful. It is really important we don't break the


safety we have here, that our bank systems continue to be safe. I hope


we will have a parliamentary inquiry, I have already spoken to


the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee to see if we can


have a look at it on cyber security, this can be absolutely critical, if


the US can do it there may be other countries as well. In a few years


time the National Health Service faces a herculean challenge


according to Macmillan cancer support, almost half of us can


expect to get cancer during our lifetimes. Advances in treatments


means many of us will survive. Here is the catch, the better the


treatments, the longer many of us will live with either the disease


or its consequences. It is the news that none of us wants to hear, but


half of us will. Macmillan Cancer Support estimates nearly half of


the UK population in 2020 will self-cancer at some point in their


lives. That is up from under a third of people in 1992. The growth


seems connected to the better life expectancy, as the population ages,


the incidence of cancer rises. It is not all bad news. In 1992, 21%


of those who had cancer did not die from the disease. This increased to


35% in 2010 and it was predicted to rise to 38% in 2020. Greater focus


on early diagnosis and advances in treatments and care are responsible


for the improvements. But many of the physical and mental


consequences of cancer continue long after remission. As more of us


get and beat cancer, the NHS will be put under increasing pressure


not only to prevent and treat the disease, but to support survivors


too. With me now are Noel lean Young who was working as a


Macmillan clinical nurse when in August 2000 she was told her 19-


year-old daughter Hannah had ovarian cancer. Months after her


daughter's treatment began Noel lean herself was diagnosed with the


disease. You were 19 and a student and suddenly you were told you have


this terrible disease and also a very, very severe form of it. I'm


wondering, it must have been a terrible shock? It was a complete


shock. Cancer is one of those things you never really think will


happen to you. You may be expecting it to happen to somebody you know,


I don't think you ever really think it is going to happen to you


particularly aged 19 when you are a student and you are just out to


enjoy life and learn and all that. You were as Macmillan nurse were


with cancer patients every day, it must have been a shock for it to


strike home? Particularly as I was a gynaecological specialist nurse,


I treated people with ovarian cancer. It was a really strange


twist of fate almost. And Hannah it was very advanced, it was 3C which


is technically pretty much almost the end of the road actually. The


treatment was what pretty horrible? It was pretty tough. I had fairly


major surgery and the cancer had spread to part of my bowel and


bladder and other parts of my abdomen. I followed up with


chemotherapy. It had a very good outcome, fortunately I'm a survivor


now. It has been many years in remission. So it is looking very


positive. You actually knew the team that was involved and were


consulted in the middle of the operation, is that right? They


started the surgery, because they thought it was a large cyst and


then they realised it was cancer so they came and asked me for


permission to do some more surgery. Then Hannah had consented for


because it was vital that they cleared as much disease as possible.


Right in the middle of the operation. With your daughter on


the operating table? Yeah.And then, once you were clear there was going


to be a family holiday and you were all going to go away and then?


then just two weeks before the family holiday I realised I wasn't


feeling too well, I went along to the doctor and I said I'm not


feeling too well. She said she would send me straight for a scan


and said there was a cyst on one of my ovaries. And I saw the


consultant I worked with and he said oh we will need to have you in


for surgery straight away. And I said no we're going on holiday. So


I did. I reasoned with myself that if I was going to have to have


surgery and chemotherapy that holiday would be delayed and that I


would rather have that holiday and then face whatever. You are both


survivors, I wondered how, the effect of this must have changed


you though? It is difficult to know what the path would have been if


you haven't had this, it must have changed you? I think so. Especially


immediately, because you feel euphoric and quite excited that you


are still here, that you are still alive, that you have got through it.


I think as time goes on life becomes more and more normal. But


then late effects and some of the health effects of treatment there


is almost a constant reminder. But you do, I think, really feel quite


vibrant about life for a long time. I don't think that really ever goes


away again. Presumably if half of us are going to have cancer and the


other half of us are going to know somebody who has cancer, we will


either go through what you went through or have to support somebody.


I wondered in terms of being a survivor, what are the things that


have changed. Is that something that the National Health Service is


going to look at? It is not just the treatment, it is not just the


medical stuff it is dealing with people like you afterwards?


Absolutely, I think actually support as a survivor is really


important. At the point at which I was treated, it is a few years ago.


When I had finished my treatment you very much feel you have been


sent out into the world alone. It can feel quite frightening, because


you finish your treatment you get used to going to hospital every


week and being very supported and cocooned and when you set off it is


quite an unnerve feeling. No longer have that medical support all the


time. There is a lot of stuff now about survivorship, and you are


involved in that. What sort of things are needed by people who


have gone through this and to their delight have survived, but then


face other problems afterwards? have identified people feel


abandoned and they can often feel helpless and hopeless after their


treatment ends, so we have been working on looking at what we can


put in place to help them recover, so how do we help them rehabilitate.


That may be issues looking at work and finance, but it may also be


issues looking at their lifestyle. Because we have identified that


physical activity can be very important in helping people to


recover. Do people also think differently about their bodies,


because there has been this bit of it which has turned against and


become the enemy. That's a very difficult thing to deal with in


your head? Emotionally we both found the emotional impact a couple


of years after diagnosis. For Hannah it meant a change of career


and likewise for me. I sort of realised that I couldn't be a


clinical nurse specialist any more and deal with this on a daily basis.


So I looked at using the knowledge of having had cancer and my


clinical knowledge in a way to help other people to survive and survive


better. Just the final thought, talking and sharing your stories


with other people, does that help you as well as them? Gosh I don't


know! OK, I will leave you to puzzle that, thank you for sharing


your stories with us tonight. He was one of the big names of the


punk scene and now he's become a presidentant about schoolchildren


learning by rote, we are not talking about Michael Gove but the


called punk-poet John Cooper Clarke. He agrees with the Education


Secretary about learning lines by heart. He has lived long enough to


see his verses included in the national curriculum. Among his


admirers are Alex Turner from The Artist, and Plan B. As he prepares


for his -- the Artic Monkeys. And he prepares for his tour. This


contains bad language. "things are going to get worse nurse, things


are going to get rotten, make it reverse, I'm trying to remember


everything I forgotten. I was a menace in the box and good in the


air, now I can't get up from an easy chair. The doctor told me, oh


yeah, things will get worse ". the match stick man from LS Lowri


country, he started out reciting poetry with the punks, and now


topping the bill at the London Palladium the sway Sammy Davies


junior and Sinatra used to. # Good authors who used to know


better words # Now only use four-letter words


# Writing prose # Anything goes


It is the apex of my career I guess. Sunday night at the London


Palladium. All them people from the past, where are you going to read


this poetry then? Sunday night at the London Palladium? Yes. Is it


daunting to follow them or bring it on? I wouldn't like to go on


straight after them! I'm glad there has been a couple of decades


inbetween. # Driver borrowed care


# Yellow socks and a pink caf VAT # Nothing la-de-da. John Cooper


Clarke has had top 40 singles and albums. He was never a perfect fit


with the punk mill your. -- milure.


Presumably it took some surviving on stage, because there was all


that spitting and what not going on? Yeah that was terrible, because


I was wearing suits so I didn't have the kind of money that would


run to getting a new suit every week. That's when I started wearing


a leather jacket, you know. Wipe clean? Wipe with a damp cloth!


"I will have you in for disturbing the police. Your feet won't touch


the floor. Don't be giving me what for. I'll give you what for. Do I


look like a...don't answer that, we are the Pleb Squad, we are looking


for a thwart!". The rat-at-tat delivery is changeless, but the


Palladium crowd might see Clarke with book in hand for some of the


night. I have to read it now because it is all new stuff really


until such time as I have learned it Michael Gove-style, off by heart,


I have to read it off the sheet. And what do you think of Mr Gove's


attitude to poetry, he seems to favour route learning? I'm right


behind him on this. It didn't do me any harm. It is the only way to


learn it. They are more interested now that pupils understand what it


is about. Really that is not what poetry is about, it is not


something to be solved. Do you know what I mean. You are better off


really learning it off by heart and then 30 years later you might get


some inkling what it's about. That stuff was written by 35-year-old


men, you know, how is a ten-year- old going to understand that.


# Now heaven knows # Anything goes


If you have green ink, prepare to spill it now. Johnny Clarke is even


on the national curriculum. "let me be your vacuum cleaner


breathing in your dust. Let me by your Morris Marina I will never


dust. If you like your coffee pot, let me be your coffee pot. You call


the shots, I want to be yours." The amount of people who said it


was read at their wedding. It is to modern weddings what Always Look On


The Bright Side of Life is to humanist funerals. An honour?I


couldn't be happier about the fact that my work is being rammed down


the reluctant throats of schoolchildren on a daily basis.


That's success. I like to think there is more to my stuff than just


a string of obskenties, you are rhyming obscenities, I like to


think it has something else to offer than that. Through it all,


through the spitle-flecked punk venues, through his commercial work


when the threat of a passive nut allergy was never far away.


Stick them on your thumb, stick them on your ear holes and your


boots. The Clarke sensibility has remained intact, that and the look.


Your look is very distinctive. Thanks. Much imitated.That Ron


Wood I have to have a word with him about this. He has nicked it,


hasn't he? Hook line and sinker. And Keith Richards! I think Johnny


Depp. He owes me one for Edward Scissorhands.


"Don't make me bloody look". John Cooper Clarke may never make Poet


Laureate, on the other hand John Bethchimen never got on the


sopranos. Does Clarke have a philosophy of poetry. I do write


some introverted stuff. I read it and think what's the point of this


stuff! Do you know what I mean. I think as soon as you start charging


admission fees then the burden of proof is on you. Like I say you


have to send people out of there with a smile on their face.


"I knew a fella called Frank, his wife was a bit of a skank. He wrote


down her pin before doing her in, and laughed all the way to the


bank"! So to the Palladium. One in the eye for Clarke's doubters. He's


making his last-minute preparations. Have you decided how you are going


to make your entrance, trap door? They have got one of them haven't


he this. You could pop up through there? They have got one of them,


thanks for pointing it out. I have narrow shoulders, I can't see


anything going wrong, the puff of smoke!


"euthanasia that sounds good, a neutral alpine neighbourhood then


back to Britain all dressed in wood. Things were going to worse


apparently." John Cooper Clarke looking on the bright side of life.


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 68 seconds


That's all tonight, Jeremy is back The emphasis is on dry and sunny


weather. Sunshine almost everywhere on Saturday. Cloud off the North


Sea eventually on a fairly brisk north-eastly wind. Northern Ireland


a beautiful day, the odd patch of fog lapping around the coast maybe.


North-east Scotland cool and cloudy as well. The odd mountain shower


here and there. For much of Scotland it is a dry day with sunny


spells. Temperatures up to the low 20s in many places. From the


Yorkshire coast into East Anglia we could see things turning grey and


cool through the afternoon in that brisk wind off the North Sea. As we


head further west we are back into the warm sunshine once again.


Fantastic for the beaches of south- west England and for Wales too. We


actually saw the highest temperature on Friday across North


West Wales up to 24. I think there will be somewhere across this part


of the world that could see similar temperatures during Saturday as


well. Further afield similar temperatures in Paris, but an


increasing risk in thundery showers. Spoiling proceedings they French


Open tennis. The today shower for Rome and Athens. Lisbon wet for a


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