06/06/2013 Newsnight


06/06/2013

With Mark Urban. The life threatening journey taken by thousands of Syrians as they attempt to escape war for the sanctuary of Europe.


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Tonight, running from Syria's war, it's the journey that cost

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desperate refugees their life savings and sometimes their lives.

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Hoping for help in Europe we trace the extraordinary odyssey of the

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thousands fleeing Syria first to turkey and from there a perilous

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journey on the seas to Greece, where they receive the coldest of

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:00:42.:00:50.

welcomes. Those that get there are Also tonight, a sales pitch from

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Labour's leader. I have just been down the road at

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Newham docks to watch Ed Miliband set out his stall on welfare reform.

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This is an issue of trust, will the British public buy it?

:01:02.:01:05.

The Americans and Australians think they are a security risk. So who

:01:05.:01:09.

decided to let a Chinese firm get involved in major UK telecoms

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contracts. To our shock and horror we discovered that decision was

:01:16.:01:20.

taken by cabinet officials who didn't even inform ministers, never

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mind ask for their decision. When the story of one of the beautiful

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game's oldest clubs collided with a thoroughly modern phenomenon of

:01:32.:01:35.

payday lending. How did Bolton Wanderers come to find itself

:01:35.:01:45.
:01:45.:01:47.

looking for an early get out from its latest sponsorship deal.

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Good evening, the shockwaves of Syria's civil war are radiating

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more and more widely. Today there was fighting on the go lan heights

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close to Israel. In Lebanon among supporters of the two sides.

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Millions have been uprooted and neighbours worry a tide of refugees

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threatens their own stability. Some reach Europe and it is in Greece,

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crisis-hit Greece with its tanked economy and rampant far right that

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many Syrians literally wash up, if they don't die on the way. In a

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special report for Newsnight we follow their journey.

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The cease tape from Syria begins with refugees crossing the border,

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here into Turkey. They are tired and angry.

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A fight breaks out among the men. A woman vents her frustration on us.

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Why you take photo, two years you take photo, what are you doing?

:02:59.:03:09.
:03:09.:03:10.

Nothing. The people are dying, nothing. The refugee camp here has

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a desperate look of permanence. With no end to the conflict in

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sight Syrians can be forgiven for wanting to rebuild their lives

:03:18.:03:28.
:03:28.:03:32.

elsewhere. Today the camp is full. Those turned away set off on foot.

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50,000 have settled in the nearest town they reach. But jobs there are

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few. Those who can move on with their hopes pinned on the countries

:03:46.:03:56.
:03:56.:03:58.

of the European Union. They go over 1,000 kilometres North West to

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Istanbul. The ancient crossroads between east and west. The gateway

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to Europe through Greece. But the Greeks are unwilling to give visas

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or asylum to Syrian refugees who arrive at official border crossings.

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It is here that the Syrian refugees must link up with the gangs of

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people smugglers operating in the city. They then organise a journey

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that will be expensive and will involve huge risk.

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They are told to go to a district of the city where they can meet

:04:33.:04:43.
:04:43.:05:09.

people they can do business with, He took them to Turkey's western

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coast from where the border with Greece runs along the Aegean sea.

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It is just 12kms to the nearest Greek island, Lesvos. It is an easy

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and pleasant ferry ride if you have money, a visa or a European

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passport. Which is why no Syrians are travelling with me. The

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smugglers insist they begin their journey from the Turkish coast in

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small boats at night. Many don't make it. Just a few weeks ago this

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man received a call from the coastguard at Lesvos to come and

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collect the bodies and belongings of his brother's family. His

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brother, sister-in-law and three children drowned. The body of the

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youngest child hasn't been recovered. It was while he was

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searching for his family that he met survivors of boats that had

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Refugees support organisations are getting many reports of boats being

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deliberate low pushed back from Greek into Turkish water. A charge

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the Greek coastguard deny. But these pictures show refugees

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behaving recklessly. They say the only way they can stop the

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coastguard from pushing them back is to scuttle their boats and hope

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they are rescued from the sea. Whatever is going on here hundreds

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of drowned. -- hundreds have drowned. Here on the Aegean the

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Greeks are supported by the pan- European border police, Frontex.

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Forces from all over the European Union take turns to patrol the

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borders of Greece, used by some 90% of illegal immigrants entering

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Europe. I asked the Romanian crew whether they push boats carrying

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Turkey. He clearly didn't want to talk about it. Preferring instead

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to tell me how, earlier, they had found a group of refugees who had

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become stranded on an uninhabited island. They built a fire, we

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approach and used a searchlight to find the number and their state.

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One of the Syrian refugees who lit the fire that morning takes up the

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Eventually the Greek coastguard collected 40 refugees from the

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island, 25 Afghans and 15 Syrians. They are pickeding up dozens every

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day and as the summer goes on, with no end to the killing in Syria,

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there will be many more. The Syrians are Christians who fled in

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fear of rising Muslim extremism. Some still have family back home

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and don't want to be identified. They have each paid 1500 euros to

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the smugglers to get this far. They want to get to the countries of

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northern Europe and are bitter they The coastguard and police make no

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effort to look after the new arrivals. Volunteers from the

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island give them their first meal in 24 hours. Heavy rain is forecast

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and most of the space in the one van provided is taken by families

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with children. Those who have been soaked at sea now get a second

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Frenching. -- drenching. I go and ask the coastguard what is going on.

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How long will you keep these people out here in the cold and rain.

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must talk to the officer. Have you told them what distress these

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people are in and it will get colder as the night progresses.

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They are coming. Someone is coming to help. So they will take them

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away for the night, yes? It is possible. They will go somewhere to

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sleep. But no-one comes to collect them and they settle down on the

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quay for an uncomfortable night. They are looked in just metres from

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the bright lights of Levv so, s. One of the most pop -- Levos. One

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of the most popular islands in Greece. Refugees have been held for

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weeks on the islands, scenes like these seen by tourists have brought

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harsh criticism from the United Nations and the European Union. As

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a result there have been some changes. Two days after arriving

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the Afghans have to stay but the Syrians are now allowed on to the

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ferry for an overnight crossing to the mainland. From where they go on

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to Athens. But, for the majority who make it this far the road ends

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in the Greek capital. Where things can get worse. Golden Dawn, a party

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with an anti-immigration agenda is the third most popular in Greece

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today, with support among a people reduced by austerity measures. With

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little sympathy for outsiders who need help. The party has been

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blamed for recent attacks on The family who fled north eastern

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Syria spent 10,000 euros getting to Athens. They want to leave Greece

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and they gave all the money they had left to a smuggler who buy fake

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passports to get them to Sweden to The family is now stranded in a

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one-room apartment paid for by the Syrian community here. The older

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boys don't dare leave it for fear of arrest. All those found entering

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the country illegally are detained. This man nearly drowned on his

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journey and was sitting in a cafe in Athens when he was picked up and

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He was held for weeks in prison and then transferred to a detention

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camp. Thousands much Syrians have been

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arrested and detained in Greece over the last two years. Only two

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Syrians out of hundreds who have applied have been given asylum. A

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European Commission report recently said that the conditions endured by

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Syrians in Greece are unacceptable. The Greek Government says they are

:15:21.:15:31.
:15:31.:16:07.

A constant plea I heard from Syrians to the Greeks if you won't

:16:07.:16:17.
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It is the misfortune for those Syrians who want to rebuild their

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lives in the European Union and beyond that the first country they

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stumble in to is Greece. And yet few other countries are offering

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these people the opportunity either. Well, earlier on I spoke to Cecilia

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Malmstrom, the EU Commissioner in charge of home affairs who recently

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visited Athens to talk to the authorities about the refugee

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problem there. I started by asking her whether she accepted that in

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their economic and social crisis it is actually very hard for Greece.

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It is very hard for Greece. Greece is having a tremendous problem on

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their own. However they have the responsibility to give these people

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shelter, to give them asylum or at least some temporary protection,

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while we all see every day the atrocities going in to Syria.

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you know how many people so far the Greek Government has given asylum

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to? I think formal asylum very few have been given. Two.Two, yes. As

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far as we know nobody has been sent back once they are in the Greek

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territory. There should be some thousands of refugees from Syria,

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that is a general problem in Greece that their asylum system has not

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been functioning, they are gradually trying to build up a

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system with assistance from the European, but it has been broken

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for many, many years. If they are not sent back, but they are not

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given asylum, effectively the future seems to promise then

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thousands more Syrians held in a kind of detention in Greece? Yes.

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Syrians and others are held in Greece in detention. This is

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something we are very concerned about. I'm talking to the Greek

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authorities about this because they have to be given alternatives to

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detention. They have to build up some sort of open reception centres

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where people can apply for asylum in appropriate ways, and not be

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looked in or kept into these kind of detention centres, that is

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against European law. Europe is helping Greece in the sense of

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assisting them with border security measures, shouldn't they also help

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in terms of providing asylum to those people to ease the situation

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there? We are helping Greece a lot. We are helping them financially to

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build up a capacity to receive people. We have experts on the

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ground. We are helping to train police, staff, border guards, the

:18:59.:19:05.

people who deal with asylum and so on. A sort of relocation mechanism

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within the European Union is, for the moment, there is no political

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support for that. As I say most of the Syrians, in total there has

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been around 40,000 coming since the beginning of the conflict. Very few

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compared to the millions who have fled Syria. Most of them are in

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other countries than Greece. There is not a political will today for

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other countries to alleviate and to take people from Greece,

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unfortunately. Can I pick you up on the last point, the issue of

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political will. Clearly in the 1990s in the wars in the former

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Yugoslavia there was a different situation, wasn't there. Many

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people were resettled across Europe, what has changed do you think?

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that was a different situation. From that we have learned that

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should there be a really, really big pressure in Europe from a

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particular country, we are talking about hundreds of thousands coming,

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there is the protection directive, that has never been used,

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established after the war in Yugoslavia. It has never been used.

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We are following the matter closely. 40,000 people to the whole of

:20:07.:20:13.

Europe in the last two-and-a-half years not enough to activate the

:20:13.:20:16.

protection mechanism. We are encouraging European countries to

:20:16.:20:19.

give Syrians protection for the moment. You are saying 40,000

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doesn't qualify this as a crisis big enough to invoke the special EU

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temporary protection measures. You could argue it is a manageable one

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if the political will is there. What is lacking, do you think

:20:32.:20:38.

Europe has changed since the period of the Balkan wars, has it become

:20:38.:20:40.

more nationalistic and less tolerant? The situation in Europe

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is very difficult with the economic crisis. There are strong

:20:44.:20:47.

nationalist and populist movements all over the European Union. When

:20:47.:20:51.

it comes to the Syrians you think everybody recognises the atrocities

:20:51.:20:55.

there. No Syrians have been sent back. But those countries who

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receive the most Syrians Germany and Sweden have not asked for help.

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I think they are coping with it so far. There has been no real cause

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to activate this temporary protection mechanism so far at

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least. Thank you very much indeed. Now the

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big development of the week on Syria's battlefield was the

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recapture of the town of Qusair by Assad Government forces. It is a

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fightal road hub that they couldn't afford to -- vital road hub that

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:21:37.:21:38.

they couldn't afford it use. The most -- Hezbollah militia might

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have tipped it in the Government's favour. Syria's opposition has

:21:42.:21:47.

threatened to attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. Rockets have been fired in

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their strongholds in Baalbek and Beirut, where tensions are high and

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from where our very own reporter joins us.

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Is this job done from Hezbollah's point of view, the victory in

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Qusair? I think this is very difficult, really for Hezbollah.

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one sense it helped to win a victory in Qusair. The reports now

:22:11.:22:17.

that Hezbollah fighters are also moving now towards Aleppo that they

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will contribute to a new offensive by Assad's forces in that area too.

:22:25.:22:28.

But of course Hezbollah has been involved in the Syrian civil war

:22:28.:22:32.

now for quite a long time. It wasn't fully open about it until

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very recently, until the battle over Qusair really. Of course the

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reason for that, I suppose, is Hezbollah here in Lebanon doesn't

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define itself primarily as a Shi'ite organisation, even though

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it is. It defines itself as the resistance against Israel. Its job

:22:48.:22:54.

is to confront Israel, certainly not to fight fellow Muslims and

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fellow Arabs. What Hezbollah says now is it is not defending

:22:59.:23:03.

President Assad in Syria per se. What it says it is doing is

:23:03.:23:12.

defending itself against the rise in Syria of extreme Sunni groups,

:23:12.:23:19.

all qied da-type groups among the - - Al-Qaeda rebels, among the rebels,

:23:19.:23:24.

who they say will target groups like Hezbollah in the same way that

:23:24.:23:34.
:23:34.:23:35.

Sunni groups have targeted Shi'ite groups in Iraq. That won't wash in

:23:35.:23:38.

the wider Lebanese public and I think certainly the prestige of

:23:38.:23:41.

Hezbollah in the region is already beginning to fall.

:23:42.:23:46.

The Syrian opposition says it is going to attack Hezbollah in

:23:46.:23:50.

Lebanon. Is that an idle threat or do you think it has already

:23:50.:23:54.

started? It certainly has already started. There have been a

:23:54.:23:58.

considerable number of rocket attacks in eastern Lebanon in the

:23:58.:24:03.

valley. Also an upsurge of fighting now for example in the northern

:24:03.:24:09.

city of Tripoli. We have seen today masked Sunni gunmen taking over the

:24:09.:24:14.

centre of the city, closing the shops there. Very much it seems in

:24:14.:24:17.

anger over what Hezbollah has been doing in Qusair.

:24:17.:24:22.

Thank you very much. With the next general election less than two

:24:22.:24:28.

years away the opposition has begun its slow policy striptease. Ed

:24:28.:24:31.

Balls earlier this week and today Labour Party leader, Ed Miliband,

:24:31.:24:35.

have begun to reveal a little more of what they will be offering

:24:35.:24:39.

voters. They are trying to convince people that they will be fiscally

:24:39.:24:43.

responsible and ready for tough decisions on welfare.

:24:43.:24:49.

But there are risks, not least that if they reveal too much others may

:24:49.:24:53.

steal their policies. Too little and nobody will take any notice.

:24:53.:24:55.

Here is our political editor to judge whether they have got the

:24:55.:25:04.

balance right? If the political scene is a market

:25:04.:25:09.

of ideas, Ed Miliband the trader is accused of not having as well

:25:09.:25:15.

stocked a store as these chaps. He's supposed to peddle old not

:25:16.:25:20.

fresh fruit. If he doesn't shift fiscal credibility his ideas on

:25:20.:25:23.

welfare will be another idea on the shelf. This morning, two years out

:25:23.:25:27.

from a general election the market of political ideas got a bit busier.

:25:27.:25:31.

Down the road from this market in Newham, East London, Ed Miliband

:25:31.:25:38.

unveiled new items. The biggest item of expenditure, alongside the

:25:38.:25:42.

National Health Service is the social security budget. The next

:25:42.:25:46.

Labour Government will have less money to spend. If we are going to

:25:46.:25:52.

turn our economy round, protect our NHS and build a stronger country we

:25:52.:25:59.

will have to be laser-focused on everything single pound we spend.

:25:59.:26:05.

Social security spending, vital as it is cannot be exempt from that

:26:05.:26:09.

discipline. So Ed Miliband would be trimming the welfare budget

:26:10.:26:14.

afterall. And after quite some years of opposing the coalition's

:26:14.:26:18.

welfare reforms. He would be doing it his way. He said that way would

:26:18.:26:22.

be very different from the Prime Minister's way. I will tell you

:26:22.:26:28.

there is a minority who don't work but should. He will tell you anyone

:26:28.:26:33.

looking for work is a skiver. I will tell you that we need to

:26:33.:26:36.

protect the dignity of work and make work pay. He will hit the low

:26:36.:26:40.

paid in work. I will tell you we do need to get the housing benefit

:26:40.:26:44.

bill down with a cap that works, but crucial low by investing in

:26:44.:26:49.

homes and tackling private landlords. He will make the problem

:26:49.:26:56.

worse by making people homeless and driving up the bill. Today he

:26:56.:00:00.

announced a three-year cap on social security spending from 2015.

3615285:00:09.
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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1614 seconds

:00:10.:27:04.

He also said a Labour Government would amend jobseeker's allowance

:27:04.:27:07.

to reflect tax paid when an individual has been in work. Labour

:27:07.:27:12.

would also give councils powers to negotiate with landlords, new lower

:27:12.:27:16.

rents. The money saved could be invested in house building. There

:27:16.:27:20.

would be subsidies for employers in order to boost wages and reduce the

:27:20.:27:25.

take up of tax credits. And also for parents of small children, if

:27:25.:27:29.

they don't prepare for work there will be sanctions.

:27:29.:27:35.

So there we have it. Against the backdrop of planes taking off Ed

:27:35.:27:38.

Miliband launched his new tougher welfare agenda. The question I

:27:38.:27:42.

wanted to ask was if his reforms don't work, will he cut to meet

:27:43.:27:47.

that cap. He didn't answer that question at all today, and until he

:27:47.:27:50.

does I think the credibility issue with Labour and welfare does still

:27:50.:27:55.

remain. This is a problem for them, in the

:27:55.:28:01.

most recent month this poll showed that David Cameron was trusted by

:28:01.:28:07.

37% of people to manage the economy, that's compared with 23% for Ed

:28:07.:28:10.

Miliband. To restore their fiscal credibility this week Labour

:28:10.:28:15.

pledged to match the coalition's spending plans for 2015. It is very

:28:15.:28:18.

difficult to get away from the fact that Labour is still going to have

:28:18.:28:23.

to make some tough choices in 2015. So these long-term policies saying

:28:24.:28:26.

we're structurally going to change the nature of the Welfare Bill, we

:28:26.:28:31.

are going to bring down the cost of housing benefit and reduce the

:28:31.:28:34.

amount we spend on tax credits. They are really important but never

:28:34.:28:38.

going to add up to the savings that you need to find on welfare.

:28:38.:28:42.

In the budget the Chancellor and now today Ed Miliband have said

:28:43.:28:51.

they want to target something called the A ME budget, annually

:28:51.:28:55.

managed expenditure. Over five years to 2012 this budget grew by

:28:55.:28:59.

�46 billion. Two thirds of this included pensions and working-age

:28:59.:29:05.

benefits, including housing been fit and tax credits. In total this

:29:05.:29:10.

budget is �350 billion of spending. That's half of all Government

:29:10.:29:15.

expenditure. It is so far been relatively protected. I think it is

:29:15.:29:19.

very unclear what this means, we don't know whether working-age

:29:19.:29:26.

benefits are going upwards when you trip out the effects of the

:29:26.:29:30.

recession. Some of the changes this Government have made and the last

:29:30.:29:36.

Labour Government have slowed it. It is not clear whether it is a

:29:36.:29:41.

really as implied deep cuts or not at all. This week the Miliband idea

:29:41.:29:44.

stall filled up. Interesting ideas that perhaps more people will

:29:44.:29:48.

question than buy outright just now. But two years out from a general

:29:48.:29:52.

election that is not a terrible trading position. Remember the

:29:52.:29:55.

young leader of the opposition Margaret Thatcher didn't have many

:29:55.:30:00.

items on show in the run up to the 1979 election, she should have been

:30:00.:30:04.

an expert, she was the daughter of a grocer.

:30:04.:30:07.

Tonight we heard that the Duke of Edinburgh had been admitted to

:30:07.:30:12.

hospital earlier in the day. Buckingham Palace said it was not

:30:12.:30:16.

an emergency admission, and the Duke would be having an exploratory

:30:17.:30:21.

operation tomorrow. The BBC's royal correspondent is here. How serious

:30:21.:30:25.

is this do you think? It is difficult to say. Exploratory

:30:25.:30:30.

operation, that is the phrase being used by Buckingham Palace, an

:30:30.:30:33.

exploratory operation which clearly has been called for by the doctors

:30:33.:30:40.

after first routine tests and then what the palace describes as

:30:40.:30:45.

investigations of the abdomen. I think it is unwise to speculate at

:30:45.:30:50.

this stage. We are led to believe it is nothing to do with his heart,

:30:50.:30:55.

he had a heart episode a few years ago or the bladder infection, there

:30:55.:31:00.

were two episodes of that last year. It is an exploratory operation on a

:31:00.:31:04.

man who in four days time will be 92 years old. Clearly that is quite

:31:04.:31:09.

challenging. It must be said it was not an emergency admission. He went

:31:09.:31:14.

in good spirits, he was at a Buckingham Palace garden party this

:31:14.:31:17.

afternoon and people who saw him there said you wouldn't think

:31:17.:31:21.

anything of wrong at all. He was cracking jokes and being his formal

:31:21.:31:25.

self. There will be an operation under general anaesthetic as we

:31:25.:31:30.

understand it, tomorrow. For the Queen now, more solo public duties?

:31:30.:31:34.

Yes, coming to the BBC indeed tomorrow. She will be fulfiling

:31:34.:31:38.

that engagment. A busy few week, Trooping the Colour on Saturday,

:31:38.:31:41.

and she will be doing those on her own. It is a statement of the

:31:41.:31:45.

obvious that it must be a rather anxious time for her.

:31:45.:31:51.

In its desire to trade with China is the Government leaving Britain's

:31:51.:31:57.

infrastructure more vulnerable to sieber attack? The parliamentary --

:31:57.:32:00.

cyber attack? The parliamentary intelligence and security

:32:00.:32:05.

commission issued a sharply-worded report today of Britain's dealings

:32:05.:32:09.

with a big Chinese telecommunications company. The

:32:09.:32:12.

Americans and Australians regard the company as a security risk. But

:32:12.:32:17.

the UK has allowed the company a big role in telecoms contracts,

:32:17.:32:21.

where is risk? Here is our science editor.

:32:21.:32:25.

It is the stark warning, telecommunications is the life

:32:25.:32:29.

blood of a successful economy. But we have reached the point where the

:32:29.:32:34.

need to protect our economic competitiveness is now so paramound

:32:34.:32:38.

mount that even national security concerns could -- paramount that

:32:38.:32:42.

even national security concerns could be compromised. Focusing so

:32:42.:32:49.

heavily on trade ties with China we could overlook the other side of

:32:49.:32:56.

the coin, the security risks in cyberspace. For MI6 cyber espionage

:32:56.:33:00.

is a growing anxiety. In today's report the MPs recognise the

:33:00.:33:04.

difficulty for Government in balancing that concern against its

:33:04.:33:08.

strong desire for inward investment from countries such as China.

:33:08.:33:13.

Today's report highlights the business relationship between

:33:13.:33:18.

Chinese telecoms giant Waway and British companies like BT. Its

:33:18.:33:21.

messages are primarily for Government. There is little doubt

:33:21.:33:25.

that China as a country goes in for hacking in a big way. It made it

:33:25.:33:29.

all the more important if you have a very major Chinese company, that

:33:29.:33:34.

happens to be the second largest telecommunications company in the

:33:34.:33:39.

world, that was a pretty useful test case to use. With 150,000

:33:39.:33:44.

employees and a turnover of around �20 billion, the company is a

:33:44.:33:47.

global force. But it is the company's close relationship with

:33:47.:33:51.

Beijing that unnerved some politicians. With multibillion

:33:51.:33:55.

pound deals between the company and British Telecom over the past

:33:56.:33:59.

decade, having been forged apparently without British

:33:59.:34:03.

Government oversight. We looked at how the decision to allow a Chinese

:34:03.:34:07.

company to become part of our critical national infrastructure

:34:07.:34:11.

was taken. To our shock and horror we discovered it was taken by

:34:11.:34:15.

cabinet officials who didn't even inform ministers never mind ask for

:34:15.:34:18.

their decision. That was very, very bad indeed. That must never happen

:34:19.:34:24.

again. There is no suggestion in the report that the company or BT

:34:24.:34:34.
:34:34.:34:43.

have done anything wrong. Today Their official statement makes

:34:43.:34:45.

clear the company sees its relationship with the UK as

:34:46.:34:55.
:34:56.:35:05.

Today's report says GCHQ should be given oversight of a cyber security

:35:05.:35:11.

centre in Oxfordshire set up and run by Huawei to allay fears over

:35:11.:35:16.

openness. This testing centre, known as "the cell" allows clients

:35:16.:35:22.

to check products before they buy. The staff who run it are employees

:35:22.:35:30.

of Huawei. Some say GCHQ employees should run it instead. One former

:35:30.:35:36.

security adviser said such deals recognise more than one big risks.

:35:36.:35:41.

Testing components or systems gives you a snapshot in time. It tells

:35:41.:35:44.

you how those components and system will operate in an artificial

:35:45.:35:48.

environment. Once those systems or components are employed in practice,

:35:48.:35:54.

in the real world, how they operate could change quite fundamentally.

:35:54.:35:58.

In the US anxiety over Huawei and the proksimity to the Chinese

:35:58.:36:04.

Government came to -- proksimity to the Chinese Government came to the

:36:04.:36:07.

House last year. The White House was reported to have included that

:36:07.:36:12.

there was no evidence that Huawei was spying on the US. Sloppy coding

:36:12.:36:17.

may have created vunabilities that could be exploited by dub

:36:18.:36:22.

vunerabilities that could be exploited by other parties.

:36:22.:36:26.

switches and routers, their products have a good reputation. BT

:36:26.:36:30.

and other companies have purchased those products. Over the last seven

:36:30.:36:34.

years there was no major security incidents. The United States are

:36:34.:36:38.

very concerned, possibly the UK parliament committee assumed that

:36:38.:36:43.

they needed to send a signal to Washington, see, we are also doing

:36:43.:36:46.

something about this problem. Government here attempted to move

:36:46.:36:51.

the emphasis away from cyber security fears. George Osborne

:36:51.:36:54.

stressed his personal priority remained increasing trade links

:36:54.:37:00.

with China. So with me now are a former

:37:00.:37:03.

Scotland Yard cyber security detective and now security

:37:04.:37:10.

consultant and the author of When China Rules The World. Are the MPs

:37:10.:37:13.

worried? Are they right to be worried about this? They are right

:37:13.:37:19.

to be concerned. The decisions that were made ten years ago in the when

:37:19.:37:22.

the contract was awarded. The report says there was no

:37:22.:37:26.

information available or mechanisms to look at it with the rigour that

:37:26.:37:30.

could be done now. It is right and proper and healthy that things are

:37:30.:37:34.

revisited, when they impact on critical infrastructure and

:37:34.:37:38.

national security. It is important, we mustn't represent the Huawei

:37:38.:37:45.

option as being an either/or choice. Their products are ubiquitous, and

:37:45.:37:50.

there is only one other company that could provide the whole set of

:37:50.:37:54.

infrastructure which is Ericson. It is not as if the ministers or

:37:54.:38:01.

Government have been provided with a choice of either/or? The company

:38:01.:38:05.

obviously is a quite legitimate company, nothing has been proven

:38:05.:38:08.

against them. What is the theoretical risk, what is it that

:38:08.:38:12.

people are concerned about in terms of the actual modalities about how

:38:13.:38:18.

this might weaken the UK's national infrastructure? Specifically in

:38:18.:38:23.

terms of communication. The communication element of critical

:38:23.:38:27.

national infrastructure is vulnerable to denial of service.

:38:27.:38:34.

And also espionage and eaves dropping. Also in the report itself

:38:34.:38:39.

published by the UK Intelligence Committee. GCHQ reporting to

:38:39.:38:43.

parliament said there are over one million lines of code in the

:38:43.:38:47.

platform and software used by way way. Vulnerability is a function of

:38:47.:38:50.

complexity. It is very difficult for anybody to go through that and

:38:50.:38:55.

say with any degree of certain toe that there are no vunabilities in

:38:55.:39:00.

there whether intention or inadvertant.

:39:00.:39:07.

Does this worry you or is it a case of Chino-phobia? There is such a

:39:07.:39:13.

thing and we are seeing a lot of it at the moment. If you recall two or

:39:13.:39:20.

three years ago do you remember all the issues of China manipulating

:39:20.:39:25.

its currency. Where did that go, we hardly hear that at all. This is

:39:25.:39:29.

the latest fashion, particularly strong in America. I'm not saying

:39:29.:39:34.

there isn't a problem. But I think it is, you know, greatly

:39:34.:39:39.

exaggerated. I must say I very much agree with the position taken by

:39:39.:39:44.

the Chancellor, which is the priority for Britain is to focus on

:39:44.:39:47.

much better trade relations with choin that. It is going to be so

:39:47.:39:52.

important -- China. It is going to be so important. The risk worth

:39:52.:40:02.
:40:02.:40:02.

taking that something might be amiss here? Go into it with eyes

:40:02.:40:06.

open and take measures that should be taken. That shouldn't be an

:40:06.:40:10.

excuse not to have a relationship with Huawei, it is extreme low

:40:10.:40:14.

important and successful company. As was said it makes now extremely

:40:14.:40:17.

good equipment at very affordable prices. Its not just us that are

:40:17.:40:23.

interested in it. You know they are supplying many countries around the

:40:23.:40:28.

world now with this kind of stuff. To what extent do you think both of

:40:28.:40:31.

you that cyber security is something where everybody wants to

:40:31.:40:35.

play the victim, but nobody really wants to admit the extent to which

:40:35.:40:41.

they themselves are exploiting some of these technologies? Beautifully

:40:41.:40:51.

put. I mean this is a world of hypocrisy. I must say I'm sure the

:40:51.:40:55.

country that's most involved in cyber espionage is the United

:40:55.:41:05.

States. You know all the mood music we hear of course is American,

:41:05.:41:09.

particularly American criticism of China. But you know you can bet

:41:09.:41:12.

literally your bottom dollar that America is doing a hell of a lot of

:41:12.:41:16.

it to China. You know if you read between the lines or not sometimes

:41:16.:41:19.

between the lines there is an omission of this by the Americans.

:41:19.:41:25.

If everybody is at it, presumably part of that is trying to ensure

:41:25.:41:30.

your own protective security. What are our options, you mentioned that

:41:30.:41:33.

possibly Ericson are the only possible alternative providers. Is

:41:33.:41:39.

it the case that China with telecoms infrastructure is in a

:41:39.:41:43.

very dominant position. You get to the chip level and so many things

:41:43.:41:46.

embedded in the hardware. It is very difficult to take a route

:41:46.:41:51.

where there would be no involvement whatsoever. It is interesting in

:41:51.:41:54.

terms of the advance threat perspective of this and what has

:41:54.:41:58.

happened with the cyber. There is a lot of difficult chatter at the

:41:58.:42:05.

moment that is not always as well informed as it could be. The

:42:05.:42:10.

situations analogyies to what happened with the research for

:42:10.:42:16.

spliting the at tomorrow and after the test bombs were -- atom and

:42:16.:42:23.

after the test bombs were tested and it was clear the atom had been

:42:23.:42:30.

split. Over the years people have figured out how to do it. With the

:42:30.:42:35.

other threats it is clear there is a whole range of attack sectors

:42:35.:42:38.

against IT systems that weren't common knowledge.

:42:38.:42:44.

Thank you very much. Is there anything slightly unclean

:42:44.:42:47.

about the payday loan industry? That is the impression you might

:42:47.:42:53.

have got from Bolton Wanderers football fans. When a company

:42:53.:42:58.

called Quick Quid, they don't beat about the bush, offered the club a

:42:58.:43:02.

lucrative sponsorship deal there were howls of protests. Bolton's

:43:02.:43:12.

business managers were forced into a re-think.

:43:12.:43:17.

It is 1929, Bolton is bursting with pride. Bolton warders had just won

:43:17.:43:22.

the FA Cup Final for the third time that decade. There were many more

:43:22.:43:29.

glory days to come. The club may now be in the second tier. This is

:43:29.:43:33.

still a town full of pride for its team and protective of its

:43:33.:43:37.

reputation. It is one of the reasons why so many people here

:43:37.:43:40.

signed a petition to stop the sponsorship deal with Quick Quid.

:43:40.:43:44.

One of the people to sign it was Phil. I think it is out of order,

:43:45.:43:50.

people who work hard for their money, these people are sort of,

:43:50.:43:53.

you borrow �100 and basically they don't tell you the interest rates,

:43:53.:43:58.

I think the interest rates are extortionate. If Bolton Wanderers

:43:58.:44:02.

have this company sponsoring their team I think to be honest what sort

:44:02.:44:07.

of message does it give to children. Bolton Wanderers Football Club

:44:07.:44:11.

pride itself on its links with the community. When 5,000 people signed

:44:11.:44:15.

a petition calling on them to cancel the deal with Quick Quid

:44:15.:44:19.

felt they had no choice but to drop them as a sponsor. They admit they

:44:19.:44:25.

underestimated the strength of feeling here in Bolton.

:44:25.:44:30.

Take a walk down Bolton high street and you can see how the easy credit

:44:30.:44:34.

industry dominates the town. It is a similar story in many of the

:44:34.:44:39.

poorest parts of Britain. The annual turnover of payday loans has

:44:39.:44:49.
:44:49.:44:50.

gone up from �220 million in 2010 to �860 million in 2012. The annual

:44:50.:44:59.

turnover of payday loans from �220 million in 2010, to �860 in 2012.

:44:59.:45:04.

There was as many as eight million payday loans in 2012, and 7 2,000

:45:04.:45:09.

companies are licensed to lend. Nearly 25,000 people have asked the

:45:09.:45:12.

Citizens Advice Bureau for help with a payday loan. One of those

:45:12.:45:20.

people is Andrew Masters, he borrowed �100 from a payday lender

:45:20.:45:26.

a year ago, now he owes �1,000 and the company is threatening him with

:45:26.:45:30.

the bailiffs. Surely you must have known you would have to pay a lot

:45:30.:45:34.

in interest? It was easy to get. You go to the banks and things and

:45:34.:45:40.

they turn you down. But that it was just easy, wasn't it. You know what

:45:40.:45:44.

I mean. Why did you need the money so badly? My girlfriend was

:45:44.:45:49.

pregnant. On our wages we couldn't afford it to buy stuff we needed

:45:49.:45:54.

for the baby. Councillor Chris Peacock organised the petition. For

:45:54.:45:57.

him this isn't just about politics. He's been supporting Bolton

:45:57.:46:05.

Wanderers all his life. As a kid I glue up with Bolton being sponsored

:46:05.:46:08.

by Reebok, it was over a decade they sponsored them with a close

:46:08.:46:15.

link to the town. I only ever wanted Reebok product its and

:46:15.:46:23.

trainers and tracksuits, everything had to be Reebok. I'm not saying

:46:23.:46:30.

kids are going out to want a payday loan, but it is that connection

:46:30.:46:34.

with the community and the sponsor and the communities reacting it.

:46:34.:46:38.

For me it was too uncomfortable. The credit industry says

:46:38.:46:44.

campaigners are ill-informed about how payday lending works.

:46:44.:46:47.

worries people that people are making a judgment based on a low

:46:47.:46:52.

level of damage. Making commercial decisions and in some cases moral

:46:52.:46:55.

and political decisions about the short-term lending market. There

:46:55.:47:01.

are standards in place, people like the product. It is legal. It is

:47:01.:47:06.

heavily regulated. It is simply that people have a natural

:47:06.:47:11.

inclination to oppose something and we are the flavour of the month.

:47:11.:47:13.

Campaigners say it shouldn't be left to the public to put the

:47:13.:47:17.

pressure on the industry. They want the Office of Fair Trading to act

:47:17.:47:23.

and the Government to do more to regulate the credit market.

:47:23.:47:27.

That's all we have time for. Time for a lie down, from all of us here

:47:27.:47:37.
:47:37.:47:42.

good night. 25 degrees today, good night. 25 degrees today,

:47:42.:47:45.

similar temperatures tomorrow. Not the same low cloud like this

:47:45.:47:49.

morning. Higher-bayed cloud in the south could give one or two showers.

:47:49.:47:52.

The odd one over mountains, in the north many places with a dry day

:47:52.:47:56.

and a lot of sunshine. Lovely day for Northern Ireland, dry with

:47:56.:48:00.

sunnier skies towards the north. These showers over the Scottish

:48:00.:48:03.

mountains, very few and far between. Another warm day for the time of

:48:03.:48:07.

year. For the western side of Scotland. The odd shower over the

:48:07.:48:11.

northern Pennines, but sunny spells across much of northern England and

:48:11.:48:15.

the Midlands. Cloud coming into the south more thaned today. A stronger

:48:15.:48:20.

breeze by the afternoon as well spots of rain in the south-east.

:48:20.:48:24.

Lively in the afternoon in Cornwall. One or two thundery downpours

:48:24.:48:29.

possible. Very hit and miss. Wales should stay dry so temperatures

:48:29.:48:34.

typically around 22 degrees or so, could be locally 25. Always cooler

:48:34.:48:38.

around those North Sea coasts. That is heading into the weekend then.

:48:38.:48:42.

No major surprises, we will see a little bit more cloud around some

:48:42.:48:47.

eastern parts of England and Scotland but most places bright,

:48:47.:48:51.

warm and sunny. Temperatures over the weekend not as high as we are

:48:51.:48:54.

With Mark Urban. The life threatening journey taken by thousands of Syrians as they attempt to escape war for the sanctuary of Europe.