10/06/2013 Newsnight


10/06/2013

Mark Urban on Prism and internet privacy. Do children need dads? And from Lebanon, a report on the plans to rebuild post-war Syria. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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No-one has broken the law, says the Foreign Secretary, and in America

:00:13.:00:16.

they say no laws have been broken too.

:00:16.:00:21.

Yet a massive eaves dropping operation has been laid bare. What

:00:21.:00:25.

kind of legal structure requires a whistleblower before the worlds

:00:25.:00:30.

knows what's happening. And we ask, "Do you know how much

:00:30.:00:35.

you are disclosing each time you go into cyberspace"?

:00:35.:00:39.

As more and more children grow up in a house with no man in it, are

:00:39.:00:43.

fathers really necessary? As long as we keep saying it doesn't really

:00:43.:00:49.

matter what kind of family you are in, and ignore the outcomes we are

:00:49.:00:52.

doing children and lone parents themselves a disservice.

:00:52.:00:58.

And in Syria, as Government forces take the offensive, what chance for

:00:58.:01:03.

the people on the sidelines trying to influence the task of rebuilding

:01:03.:01:07.

when the civil war is finally over. Many now would say the conflict can

:01:07.:01:12.

only end either with a victory on the battlefield, or a settlement

:01:12.:01:17.

imposed by outer powers, and activists like these are just

:01:17.:01:27.
:01:27.:01:28.

irrelevant. The Foreign Secretary was

:01:28.:01:32.

"unambiguous", British intelligence has not tried to get around the law

:01:32.:01:35.

by taking manufactures from United States' surveillance programmes

:01:36.:01:38.

that it would not have been able to get authorisation for in this

:01:38.:01:43.

country. He didn't give any details though, but how could he, we shall

:01:43.:01:46.

have to take his word for it. What has been revealed about the extent

:01:46.:01:54.

of American Government snooping has astonished some people millions and

:01:54.:01:58.

millions of phone call and internet records have been looked at,

:01:58.:02:03.

according to a young man who has gone public.

:02:03.:02:06.

The legal and policy framework for surveillance is about as complex a

:02:07.:02:11.

suggest as you could imagine. But Edward Snowden came to the view

:02:11.:02:16.

that mass harvesting of communications constitutes an

:02:16.:02:20.

unacceptable invasion of people's privacy. The NSA specifically

:02:20.:02:23.

targets the communications of everyone, it digests them by

:02:23.:02:26.

default. It collects it in its system and filters them and

:02:26.:02:30.

analyses and it stores them for periods of time. Simply because

:02:30.:02:34.

that is the easiest most efficient and most valuable way to achieve

:02:34.:02:39.

these ends. But the passage of a few days since

:02:39.:02:44.

the first revelations has also given us a clearer idea of the

:02:44.:02:48.

official justification for the National Security Agency's

:02:48.:02:53.

operations. That's especially true of gathering met at that data. The

:02:53.:02:57.

who contacted whom for how long and where they were. Intelligence

:02:57.:03:01.

professionals defend this as a vital tool. This kind of trawling

:03:01.:03:04.

of massive data has to go on all the time any way, because that's

:03:04.:03:08.

where the intelligence is. It is concealed within the data. But the

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point about this is that, or they are looking for needles in

:03:15.:03:18.

haystacks, in order to find that they have to be alooked to look at

:03:18.:03:21.

the haystack. For decades phone companies and other service

:03:22.:03:27.

providers have been required by law to keep what used to be called

:03:27.:03:37.

"billing information". Met at that data, and to make that a-- metadata

:03:37.:03:40.

and make it available to the Government. That is not the same

:03:40.:03:45.

under other countries' laws. To intercept communications, the

:03:45.:03:51.

content of a phone call, e-mail or an old fashioned letter requires a

:03:51.:03:56.

specific warrant. It just just that the law makes met -- just that the

:03:56.:04:05.

law makes metadata easier to record, looking at the content needs an

:04:05.:04:11.

exponeings power. And storing all of this would be a mind-boggling

:04:11.:04:16.

challenge. Even storing the metadata is a costly and complex

:04:16.:04:24.

operation for the NSA. It has opened $2 billion centre in Utahh

:04:24.:04:30.

to do that. Doing it on this scale poses many questions. The metadata

:04:30.:04:40.

collection programme seems to be problematic. And the the

:04:40.:04:44.

Governments and courts will have to look at this with a fresh pair of

:04:44.:04:48.

eyes to see in the National Security Agency has been following

:04:48.:04:51.

the rules. The UK doesn't do intelligence on anything like the

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same level. It can rely on the NSA, of course, but even leaked figures

:04:56.:05:01.

of 197 reports sent to GCHQ by that organisation suggest Britain is

:05:01.:05:06.

doing things on a much smaller scale. That makes it easier to

:05:06.:05:09.

regulate and for ministers to insist they are acting legally.

:05:09.:05:14.

has been suggested that GCHQ uses our partnership with the United

:05:14.:05:18.

States to get around UK law, obtaining information that they

:05:18.:05:23.

cannot legally obtain in the United Kingdom. I wish to be absolutely

:05:23.:05:28.

clear that this accusation is baseless. Any data obtained by us

:05:28.:05:33.

from the United States involving UK nationals is subject to proper UK

:05:33.:05:39.

statutory controls and safeguards. The US Government says also that

:05:39.:05:45.

its requests for content from going google or AOL, under the project

:05:45.:05:50.

code named Prism, are subject to legal warrants. For many in the US

:05:50.:05:55.

Congress the key question is whether these operations involved

:05:55.:05:59.

routine large-scale surveillance of US citizens. As for the rest of the

:05:59.:06:02.

world well they are not quite so bothered about that. So if there

:06:02.:06:07.

are to be changes to the law as a result of these disclosures it is

:06:07.:06:12.

most likely to be in tightening up the rules for surveillance of US

:06:12.:06:15.

citizens much but surveillance of the rest of the world is likely to

:06:15.:06:19.

be carried on by the NSA on a massive scale.

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We have we haven't had a leak about surveillance programmes of this

:06:24.:06:29.

magnitude in some time. The story seems to have lags and the leaks

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just keep coming. So it is my hope that Congress does take a look at

:06:34.:06:38.

this, that they hold hearings and if the law has been broken that

:06:38.:06:42.

people are held accountable for breaking the law.

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As for the man who made this public, he said that he expects the data

:06:47.:06:51.

empires and intelligence organisations that he has betrayed

:06:51.:06:55.

will not forgive him and that he accepts that life as he knew it is

:06:55.:06:58.

effectively over. This is something that's not our

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place to decide. The public needs to decide whether these programmes

:07:03.:07:07.

and policies are right or wrong. I'm willing to go on the record to

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defend the authenticity of them and say I didn't change these, I didn't

:07:10.:07:14.

modify the story, this is the truth, this is what's happening, you

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should decide whether we need to be doing this.

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Well now to discuss this we have Major General Jonathan Shaw, a

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retired army general, until last year in charge of the Ministry of

:07:28.:07:31.

Defence cyber security programme. And Richard Aldridge, who has

:07:31.:07:36.

written a book on the US intelligence agency, GCHQ, he's

:07:36.:07:38.

currently leading a research project into what the public knows

:07:39.:07:44.

about the CIA. Were you surprised about the scale

:07:45.:07:49.

of disclosures in the revelations? I wasn't surprised it happened, but

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the sheer scale of it when I think about it doesn't surprise me. The

:07:52.:07:55.

whole area is one of big data. Every corporation in the world is

:07:55.:07:59.

struggling to cope with this massive data. And you need to take

:07:59.:08:03.

a lot of data in if you are going to analyse it. Thinking about it,

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it shouldn't have taken us by surprise at all. What do you think?

:08:07.:08:10.

It shows us the intelligence agencies no longer own intelligence,

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the people who own intelligence now are the supermarket, the banks and

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the airlines. That is a problem because Government needs access to

:08:18.:08:21.

that information. It is interesting that people are prepared to share

:08:21.:08:26.

all sorts of bits of information about themselves with these

:08:26.:08:29.

companies, but they are some how alarmed if the Government's keeping

:08:29.:08:35.

track of them? A former senior GCHQ officer said there is something

:08:35.:08:38.

strange about a keyboard, if you put a human being in front of a

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keyboard and a screen they will do all sorts of weird things which

:08:41.:08:45.

they won't normally do in ordinary life. There is a whole research

:08:46.:08:50.

project there. We didn't know this programme existed, do you think we

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should have known, General? Or the Americans perhaps? What should be

:08:54.:08:58.

in the public dough nain and what shouldn't is the question. I'm

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quite comfortable, but I suppose you could say I should be, that we

:09:01.:09:07.

didn't know about it. I think we should be comfortable that it

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exists. The real surprise would have been if there wasn't co-

:09:11.:09:14.

operation between the QCHQ and the NSA. That would have been a

:09:15.:09:18.

surprise. When you have a programme of this scale, much bigger even

:09:18.:09:21.

than you knew, you say if you thought about it you would have

:09:21.:09:25.

recognised it, but you can't possibly be regularly scrutinised

:09:25.:09:29.

by due legal oversight, can it? Well you will have to wait for the

:09:29.:09:33.

inquiry on that, I'm not quite sure how that was done. You will have to

:09:34.:09:37.

wait to see on that. I don't know what the task mechanism is, I don't

:09:38.:09:43.

know the detail, we will have to wait for that. That scale, millions

:09:43.:09:48.

of phone records alone, vast numbers of internet pieces of

:09:48.:09:54.

information, you would have to have somebody in a court just stamping,

:09:54.:09:58.

stamping all day long in order to look at it? The record we were

:09:58.:10:03.

hearing was the 190 reports. Those are the requests from this country?

:10:03.:10:07.

So the American system, I'm not capable of talking about that at

:10:07.:10:13.

all. Do you worry about the implications at the British end of

:10:13.:10:17.

things? I worry about the connections between Britain and the

:10:17.:10:22.

United States. The British system as shown is smaller and therefore

:10:22.:10:26.

easier to regulate. The American system is much, much larger. They

:10:26.:10:31.

not only harvest a lot of data but they keep a lot of that data.

:10:31.:10:35.

Exactly as you have said, much more difficult to oversee all that stuff.

:10:35.:10:38.

I strongly suspect that British politicians don't know everything

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that the United States is doing. Does that matter? Yes, I think it

:10:43.:10:49.

does. So many intelligence agencies around the world share intelligence

:10:49.:10:54.

now. But the relationship between GCHQ and NSA is special. They

:10:54.:10:59.

effectively work in certainly in some areas as effectively one

:10:59.:11:03.

organisation. Do you believe the Foreign Secretary? Yes I do. I

:11:03.:11:08.

think when he says that nothing has been done that's unlawful, that's

:11:08.:11:14.

correct. The problem is the law is not very transparent in the UK, and

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in the United States it is put into operation by secret courts. We

:11:17.:11:23.

can't even read their judgments. So we're told it is lawful but we know

:11:23.:11:27.

very little more than that. Let's talk about what should happen to

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this whistleblower, Mr Snowden. What do you think should happen to

:11:31.:11:34.

him General? I think if you serve your country, if you sign up and

:11:34.:11:38.

work for people who you must have known who you are working for and

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the sort of business you are in. He knew what the rules were and he

:11:42.:11:46.

broke them, he should have the book thrown at him absolutely. He has

:11:46.:11:51.

committed a legal crime. Whether he has committed a moral crime is an

:11:51.:11:54.

entirely separate question. My own view is he should be pursued by the

:11:54.:11:57.

Americans. He certainly thinks he should be. What do you think should

:11:57.:12:04.

happen to him? I think it shows the way that privacy isies appearing

:12:04.:12:09.

for everybody. Part of this issue - - privacy is disappearing for

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everything. Privacy is also disappearing for corporations and

:12:11.:12:14.

Government. It is difficult to do secret stuff because people will

:12:15.:12:19.

blow the whistle. I don't think you are answering the question. What

:12:19.:12:23.

penalty, what should befall this young man, has he done us all a

:12:23.:12:27.

service for disclosing what has gone on, or should he be punished?

:12:27.:12:30.

He says ethically I have done the right thing, but I have broken the

:12:30.:12:34.

law and I expect to be punished. Thank you very much. The usual

:12:34.:12:38.

argument used about why we don't need to worry about the state

:12:38.:12:42.

snooping upon what we are up to on lon is if we have done nothing

:12:42.:12:44.

questionable we have nothing to worry about.

:12:44.:12:48.

Yet it is surprising how even the most innocent of forays into

:12:48.:12:52.

cyberspace can disclose all sorts of things about you that you

:12:52.:12:56.

weren't necessarily aware you were revealing. Tom Chatfield is a

:12:56.:13:01.

digital and technology writer, we asked him to explain.

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In the few decades since the birth of the web, we have moved from e-

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mail to social networking to a gamit of on-line services. Scoring

:13:09.:13:15.

more and more of our lives in the called "cloud". The amount of data

:13:15.:13:19.

out there is growing at an exponential rate.

:13:19.:13:24.

In a typical day last year people sent more than 144 billion e-mails.

:13:24.:13:31.

Shared more than 684,000 items of content on Facebook alone. And

:13:31.:13:37.

uploaded 72 hours of video to YouTube every single minute. 90% of

:13:37.:13:42.

the world's data has been created in the last two years.

:13:42.:13:48.

With so much data out there, and so much more coming every day, is it

:13:48.:13:52.

realistic to expect to keep it under our own control.

:13:52.:13:56.

The word "cloud" is deceptive when it comes to technology. It sounds

:13:56.:14:01.

fluffy and weightless, but what it really describes is a bunker-like

:14:02.:14:07.

room full of computers running physically the data owned by a

:14:07.:14:11.

company and located in a particular country and subject to its

:14:11.:14:15.

Government's laws and requests for data. Search centres can also be

:14:15.:14:19.

the subject of digital assaults, although companies will try to keep

:14:19.:14:24.

them safe. On top of this there is the fact that all the seemingly

:14:24.:14:29.

trivial details we reveal about ourselves on-line every day can be

:14:29.:14:33.

cross-referenced and co-related often to startling effect. A

:14:33.:14:37.

database of trivial details is not a trivial database. I will go now

:14:37.:14:44.

and do a little bit of self- googleing on-line and see what I

:14:44.:14:52.

can snoop out. If I have a look on my Twitter profile, I can see I'm

:14:52.:14:57.

here filming now. If I scroll down I can see a few days ago I was out

:14:57.:15:03.

having a coffee near my house. I'm just going to pop in the details of

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that common near my house and I can find the postcode for that. Armed

:15:08.:15:12.

with that postcode I'm going to cross-reference the first half of

:15:12.:15:17.

that with my own name and rather disturbingly it very quickly brings

:15:17.:15:22.

up the registration details that have been scraped off my website

:15:22.:15:25.

registration that will tell you my home address and my personal mobile

:15:25.:15:30.

phone number as well as my e-mail. A quick glance on Facebook will

:15:30.:15:34.

give you some details about who I'm married to. You can look at some

:15:34.:15:37.

photos, you can find out something about my cats, if you are

:15:37.:15:43.

interested in things like that. And glancing now at my public profile

:15:43.:15:46.

in linkedin, that fills in all the university and education details

:15:46.:15:51.

and most of the other stuff, as well as the feed pulling off all my

:15:51.:15:54.

Twitter information. Now you are pretty much well on your way to

:15:54.:15:58.

knowing far more about me than frankly I feel comfortable about

:15:58.:16:02.

you getting in five minutes of tapping on a keyboard. According to

:16:03.:16:09.

research published earlier this year, even details as trivial as

:16:09.:16:14.

Facebook "likes" can be analysed to predict 80% accurately very private

:16:14.:16:17.

details like ethnicity, political preference, religious beliefs and

:16:17.:16:23.

sexuality. So with all the risks, why are people still so willing to

:16:23.:16:29.

upload so much of their lives. Perhaps we have been niave, perhaps

:16:29.:16:38.

web historians of the future will laugh at us and our reDell Lynx for

:16:38.:16:44.

cease lesson line attention. It is not too late to change our ways. If

:16:44.:16:49.

you want to protect yourself on- line, one of the joys of technology

:16:49.:16:54.

is find out all the things you can do, using anonymous browsers or

:16:54.:16:58.

virtual private networks or incrypting your files. Or you can

:16:58.:17:00.

stop telling everywhere you are going, who you are seeing and what

:17:01.:17:08.

you are doing, and shut up instead! Professor Richard Aldridge is still

:17:08.:17:16.

with us, we are joined from San Francisco by the technology writer.

:17:16.:17:23.

Do you think loss of privacy is the price we pay inevitably for using

:17:23.:17:27.

technology? I think that is something that has been said by

:17:27.:17:30.

President Obama as well. You have to weigh up the balance of whether

:17:30.:17:34.

you want security and privacy. I would say that the whole idea of

:17:34.:17:37.

the loss of privacy is something people have been talking about for

:17:37.:17:44.

a very long time. I noticed back in 1970 Newsweek Magazine had a cover

:17:44.:17:51.

core that said "The End of Privacy". Governments around the world are

:17:51.:17:56.

struggling to keep up with the amount of data put out there. It is

:17:56.:17:59.

difficult to reconcile whether there is an increase in the amount

:17:59.:18:04.

of surveillance as compared to what there was 30 or 40 years ago.

:18:04.:18:11.

you think that the, that our standards are changing, that older

:18:11.:18:14.

people are obviously much less willing to share things than young

:18:14.:18:17.

people who very often have disclosed everything that's

:18:17.:18:21.

happened in their lives since they were early teenagers? Very much so.

:18:21.:18:25.

I think much of the debate is about the trade-off between liberty and

:18:25.:18:28.

security. But actually I would argue we have traded both liberty

:18:28.:18:33.

and security for something which we might call convience, even shopping.

:18:33.:18:38.

That's a cultural trend that we notice very much amongst the

:18:38.:18:41.

younger demographic. You suggest it is notness low really an issue

:18:41.:18:45.

then? I don't think it is quite so much an issue for the younger

:18:45.:18:48.

generation. I think to some extent they have been out for a good night

:18:48.:18:54.

out. It hasn't actually happened unless someone has instantly put

:18:54.:18:59.

167 photographs on Facebook. your notions of privacy the same of

:18:59.:19:02.

that of your parents' generation say? I think you are absolutely

:19:02.:19:06.

right what you were discussing earlier, there is a very big

:19:06.:19:09.

generational shift in attitudes towards privacy. I think there is a

:19:10.:19:13.

bit of a myth around this idea that young people don't value privacy. I

:19:13.:19:17.

think they do. I think they just view the Internet in a very

:19:17.:19:24.

different way to older generations, with less paranoia and less of a

:19:24.:19:26.

deferential view towards the Internet. With more of a sense of

:19:26.:19:32.

control of the way they share information. Where as perhaps older

:19:32.:19:35.

generations may primarily rely on Facebook as a social networking

:19:35.:19:38.

tool, more and more young people are actually veering towards many

:19:38.:19:48.
:19:48.:19:51.

different types of social networks like Instagramfor mobile, Snapchat,

:19:51.:19:59.

and Whasup. Snapshot is sharing photographs, the person sees it and

:19:59.:20:04.

it is deleted after ten seconds. There is a different aim for

:20:04.:20:07.

content that the younger generation has.

:20:07.:20:13.

Do you think consumer behaviour will change after this consumer

:20:13.:20:16.

revelationry episode? I don't think so, people generally want convience,

:20:16.:20:20.

there is this saying that if the service is free you become the

:20:20.:20:24.

product. This is what we have seen with Facebook, what we have seen

:20:24.:20:30.

with very popular mobile services like Waves, the navigation map. If

:20:30.:20:35.

we have free services we will have ads targeted to us. There are big

:20:35.:20:40.

companies in Silicon Valley who are very good at targeting the data out

:20:40.:20:45.

there and targeting us with advertising. That is part and

:20:45.:20:49.

parcel technology and using services that are convenient for us.

:20:49.:20:54.

The word "paranoia" was used earlier, an unfounded fear, this

:20:54.:20:59.

isn't an unfounded fear is it? it isn't. The future is coming fast,

:20:59.:21:04.

in ten years time anything we buy in a shop that costs more than �20

:21:04.:21:10.

will have an IP address, a kettle, a toaster, a handbag. Those things

:21:10.:21:13.

will gather data all the time. We will have almost continuous

:21:13.:21:17.

surveillance. Certainly in urban areas. Yes everything that happens

:21:17.:21:21.

will be recorded all the time. That will be convenient and people will

:21:21.:21:25.

sign up to it. And maybe people won't worry too much about it?

:21:25.:21:28.

Absolutely. It will be a very different world. Is there any way

:21:28.:21:32.

to avoid it? You could throw away your mobile phone and your laptop

:21:32.:21:40.

and your credit cards, but life would be very inconvenient. If you

:21:40.:21:43.

are on-line is there any way to avoid people snooping and knowing

:21:43.:21:48.

about you? You can certainly just avoid all these different social

:21:48.:21:56.

networks that are out there. I would a add, with the proliferation

:21:56.:21:59.

of so many different types of networks that new generations are

:21:59.:22:04.

using. It is not even just Facebook or the carrier companies any more,

:22:04.:22:08.

AT&T or Vodaphone, people are now calling through Skype. I know Skype

:22:08.:22:12.

was one of the programmes that was part of the Prism project, but

:22:12.:22:18.

there are many, many more adviceover Internet Protocol

:22:18.:22:22.

services people use for free calls and messages. How is any one agency

:22:22.:22:26.

going to keep track of that huge proliferation of information with

:22:26.:22:30.

only more services coming on board and offering those same kinds of

:22:30.:22:38.

communication tools. So widespread publicity or disclosure will mean

:22:38.:22:42.

that it is impossible for people to be snooping on you, you think?

:22:42.:22:46.

just think it will become you know, as the channels of communication

:22:46.:22:50.

increase it becomes ever more difficult for any one agency to

:22:50.:22:56.

track and make sense of all that data. So they outsource to these

:22:56.:23:01.

intelligence companies like Palenteer, and the company that the

:23:01.:23:05.

whistleblower came from, who have very smart code-crackers and people

:23:05.:23:10.

who create all georhythms to sieve through the data. It is the

:23:11.:23:17.

constant sifting through the data and making sense of it. It is no

:23:17.:23:23.

easy task for any Government to do that. Have we passed the high water

:23:23.:23:27.

mark of this type of disclosure? think it is just beginning. That is

:23:27.:23:31.

partly because of the technology itself. If we look at wicky leeks,

:23:31.:23:40.

it is easier -- Wikileaks, it is easier to bring out this

:23:40.:23:43.

information. They are not doing this to disclose to tech companies

:23:43.:23:47.

and the like? It has only just begun, it is the merchants of

:23:47.:23:51.

shopping and people like shopping. Great numbers of children are

:23:51.:23:55.

growing up without an adult male in their lives. A report by a right-

:23:55.:23:58.

leaning think-tank claimed today that some parts of England and

:23:58.:24:03.

Wales have become man-deserts, there isn't even a single male

:24:03.:24:06.

teacher in a quarter of primary schools, for example. Does it

:24:06.:24:10.

matter though? Is it anyone else's business outside the families

:24:10.:24:16.

concerned? The group behind the report claims it is and costs the

:24:16.:24:21.

country billions a year. How come? Why does it matter if these

:24:21.:24:26.

children have a male role model in their lives? What does it mean for

:24:26.:24:31.

their development? For society at large? According to the Centre for

:24:31.:24:35.

Social Justice report one million children have no meaningful contact

:24:35.:24:39.

with their father. They say that family breakdown can cause

:24:39.:24:44.

everything from educational failure to worklessness, crime, debt and

:24:44.:24:50.

poverty. Fixing that, they claim, costs the taxpayer �46 billion a

:24:50.:24:55.

year. The sense that fathers don't matter, that family structure

:24:55.:24:59.

doesn't matter and that just being on your own with children you can

:24:59.:25:03.

do just as well. If only it were true. It takes two people to bring

:25:03.:25:07.

a child into the world, and unsurprisingly if at all possible

:25:07.:25:12.

children tend to do best when there are two parents throughout their

:25:12.:25:14.

childhood. In this North London neighbourhood, they have the

:25:15.:25:17.

fourth-highest number of single mother households in all of England

:25:17.:25:21.

and Wales. Yet parents we spoke to at this local primary school were

:25:21.:25:25.

convinced that children need a father figure. I just think it is a

:25:25.:25:29.

good balance to have both parents. Some people are fortunate, some

:25:29.:25:35.

unfortunate, that is my personal opinion. I just think it helps the

:25:35.:25:39.

child's upbringing and development. Many of those we spoke to struggled

:25:39.:25:44.

to explain why a father's role is different from that of a mother's.

:25:44.:25:48.

The fact that there is two around is more important than the fact I'm

:25:48.:25:55.

male. I think that's the thing. It is probably not my sex but the fact

:25:55.:26:01.

that there is two of us. This part of London could well be what the

:26:01.:26:04.

Centre for Social Justice calls a "man desert". Not just because of

:26:04.:26:09.

the high number of single mother households, but because so few of

:26:10.:26:14.

the teachers at this school are men. The staff wish there were more.

:26:14.:26:18.

They bring in different social skills to women, that plays a huge

:26:18.:26:22.

role in having male teachers in schools. What do you mean by social

:26:22.:26:28.

skills, what do they bring to the equation? Etiquette and how they

:26:28.:26:32.

treat girls, for example. How they have manners and respect towards

:26:32.:26:38.

each other. They see a staff, men and women liaising with each other,

:26:38.:26:41.

working together, they might not necessarily see that at home.

:26:41.:26:47.

wards with the highest percentages of single mother households are

:26:47.:26:51.

found in Birmingham, Liverpool, the whirl, and King's Cross in London.

:26:51.:26:55.

Jordan's father was not involved in his upbringing, he was raised by

:26:55.:26:59.

his mother, grandmother and an uncle. I think yes there is no

:26:59.:27:03.

doubt about it having a father there it completes the package

:27:03.:27:09.

really. If a father was there it wouldn't necessarily add anything

:27:09.:27:13.

to it significantly, it wouldn't give really an advantage, maybe a

:27:13.:27:17.

financial advantage you have two parents you can go dad get me this,

:27:17.:27:23.

and mum would disagree. But in terms of that I think yes there is

:27:23.:27:27.

an advantage but not a major one. It is not really a game-changer.

:27:27.:27:34.

Jordan isn't alone in any thinking there are many -- in thinking there

:27:34.:27:38.

are many factors that determine a child's upbringing and the presence

:27:38.:27:42.

of a father isn't the most important. All the demographics

:27:42.:27:46.

show what matters for children's life chances is poverty first and

:27:46.:27:50.

foremost and the level of conflict in a family. Looking at what is

:27:50.:27:55.

going on within the family rather than a family structure. We know

:27:55.:27:59.

poverty is rising. The Institute for Fiscal studios is predicting

:28:00.:28:05.

child poverty will rise to a million children between 2010-2020.

:28:05.:28:10.

We need to focus there. The Centre for Social Justice says that

:28:10.:28:14.

politicians have responded feeblely to what it call Britain's family

:28:14.:28:16.

breakdown emergency. It is the Government's business to meddle

:28:16.:28:20.

into family life, they say, because the country can't afford for them

:28:20.:28:27.

not to. Shaun Bailey is here, the

:28:27.:28:31.

Government community and social engagment representative who was

:28:31.:28:36.

brought up in a single parent home. And we have our other guest who

:28:36.:28:41.

writes about her experiences as a single parent, raising her daughter

:28:41.:28:44.

herself. What was the experience of having

:28:44.:28:49.

an absence of a father and male figure? Male figures are very

:28:49.:28:53.

important for boys and their behaviour, there is issues around

:28:53.:28:56.

violence and how you conduct yourself. It is hard to take those

:28:56.:28:59.

lessons from your mother because she doesn't have that experience.

:28:59.:29:03.

We have a proliferation of gang and anti-social behaviour, a male

:29:03.:29:06.

figure has a different response mechanism and different emotional

:29:06.:29:09.

development path that you lead a child down when talking about those

:29:09.:29:16.

issues. For me in particular I was lucky in the army cadets I had male

:29:16.:29:19.

role models different to the boys on my street that helped me

:29:19.:29:23.

regulate my own behaviour. Why that regulation is important is it

:29:23.:29:25.

determines how well you do at school and learning the social

:29:25.:29:31.

skills that enable you to be successful. Without that you are

:29:31.:29:34.

sunk before the start. You have a daughter. Do you think she's

:29:34.:29:38.

deprived by not having a father figure around? Absolutely not. I

:29:38.:29:41.

think there are two issues there. The idea that a family structure

:29:41.:29:44.

has to include two parents of a different gender. I think family

:29:45.:29:47.

structure is very important to children but there is no kind of

:29:47.:29:51.

rule as to what genders should be involved. I don't think the

:29:51.:29:54.

addition of a male gender role model would have made any

:29:54.:29:56.

significant difference to the way my daughter is being brought up. I

:29:56.:30:01.

think also there is the idea that a male role model for a child has to

:30:01.:30:06.

be their father. As a society and family and as a community we can

:30:06.:30:09.

introduce lots of male role models into children's lives. It doesn't

:30:09.:30:13.

necessarily have to be their father and it won't be available to all

:30:13.:30:17.

children. Would you like to explain to Sally what it is that

:30:17.:30:21.

specifically a male figure in these sorts of situations brings that

:30:21.:30:26.

isn't going to be brought by a woman? Most girls, ladies have

:30:26.:30:29.

never had a fight, excuse me, they have never been threatened in the

:30:29.:30:32.

same way that boys threaten each other. There is no doubt that there

:30:32.:30:37.

is a gender difference between how boys and girls communicate. It is

:30:37.:30:39.

nice to have someone lead you through that. More importantly this

:30:39.:30:42.

isn't so much a discussion only about family structure, you are

:30:42.:30:47.

right one of the major role models in my life are uncles, I had two

:30:47.:30:50.

uncles who led me through life. That is great. There is a point

:30:50.:30:53.

where there is a wider implication, this will definitely touch on

:30:53.:30:58.

poverty, et cetera. My two uncles have children of their own, they

:30:58.:31:00.

couldn't support my mother once they started their own families. If

:31:00.:31:04.

you want to talk about family structure male role model, one of

:31:04.:31:08.

the most important thing is the direct correlation with poverty. If

:31:08.:31:13.

you want to bring children out of poverty, which is the single

:31:13.:31:19.

biggest determinate of your future, to add a second parent and male

:31:19.:31:22.

role model is vitally important. You are nodding? There is a

:31:22.:31:25.

distinction between correlation and causation. I think certainly

:31:26.:31:29.

bringing working mums out of poverty is really important. And as

:31:29.:31:35.

a working mum it can be incredibly hard to find high-quality, flexible

:31:35.:31:38.

childcare, to find flexible work opportunities and access education

:31:38.:31:41.

and training when you are solely responsible for a child. Arguing

:31:41.:31:46.

that the solution to poverty is for women to be in relationships with a

:31:46.:31:50.

husband or partner of the opposite gender slightly misses the point.

:31:50.:31:53.

We need to look at offering women greater opportunities to support

:31:53.:31:55.

their families if they do find themselves in a single parent

:31:55.:31:59.

situation. The thing I would add to that though, no Government is in

:31:59.:32:03.

the business or can be in the business of keeping people together.

:32:03.:32:06.

That's just simply not going to happen. What you could do, the

:32:06.:32:11.

policy instrument here is you could make it a lot harder for you to

:32:11.:32:13.

financially separate yourself from your children. If I ran the

:32:13.:32:16.

universe any children you brought into the world, the first port of

:32:16.:32:19.

call for resources for those children would be you, not the

:32:19.:32:24.

Government. What we are building here, and what the CSJ are talking

:32:24.:32:29.

about is how we are trying to wedge our whole society inbetween into

:32:29.:32:34.

that role. What we should be really saying to fathers is you stay at

:32:34.:32:37.

least financially, that is beyond discussion and there is no doubt in

:32:37.:32:42.

my mind that a male role model has a significant role to play. Why I

:32:42.:32:46.

concentrate on fathers is because they have a vested interest and a

:32:46.:32:50.

moral duty to stay involved with any children they father. I think

:32:50.:32:54.

you are confusing the father's duty to provide for their children, you

:32:54.:32:57.

can talk about a moral duty, in practice and I can tell you as a

:32:57.:33:01.

single mother who has been through the system, if a father doesn't

:33:01.:33:05.

want to contribute to their child financially that will not happen.

:33:05.:33:08.

There are no current policies in place to make that happen if there

:33:08.:33:12.

is an unwilling parent. You are talking about role models. What the

:33:12.:33:15.

report from the Centre for Social Justice is talking about is if you

:33:15.:33:18.

are a single mother then the outcome for your child is

:33:18.:33:21.

necessarily worse because you are a single mother. I think actually we

:33:21.:33:26.

need to be looking at completely different issues. This isn't a

:33:26.:33:29.

debate about two-parent families versus single-parent families. It

:33:29.:33:35.

is a fact if you are a single parent, woman or man the outcomes

:33:35.:33:39.

for your children are sttically worse, it will be tougher for you.

:33:39.:33:45.

-- Statistic ically worse for you. Let's look at what causes the

:33:45.:33:48.

problems. Children from two-parent families statistically work out

:33:48.:33:52.

better. We are not just talking about that. We are talking about

:33:52.:33:56.

where does the burden lie and where do you ask people to step up. The

:33:56.:33:59.

emotional development of your children is definitely supported by

:33:59.:34:04.

having a role model and a man. my perspective as a single mum and

:34:04.:34:07.

talking to other mums I know. It is great if you have male role models

:34:07.:34:11.

within the family. I'm lucky my daughter has a good relationship

:34:11.:34:15.

with her dad, she has uncles, cousins, lots of men in her life.

:34:15.:34:19.

But I think that broader, as a society, we need to look at getting

:34:19.:34:23.

more men involved. Not every single mum has that opportunity, not every

:34:23.:34:28.

single mum has brothers or a good relationship with her ex. It may

:34:28.:34:31.

not be helpful to have that involvement. It is policy in its

:34:31.:34:35.

very nature is general. You have to try to make things as good as you

:34:35.:34:40.

can generally. Part of that is about the message you send. If you

:34:40.:34:47.

complain about deathbeat dads they will talk about their deadbeat dad,

:34:47.:34:52.

if you break that cycle you need to say to people through policy. There

:34:52.:34:55.

is no policy to make people to pay up. If I ran the universe, believe

:34:55.:34:58.

me there would be. I would take the money, it wouldn't be a debate. I

:34:58.:35:02.

would take the money and give it to the chiel. I think that send a

:35:02.:35:06.

message. -- the child. I think that send a message. If you were running

:35:06.:35:10.

the universe would you have more men in primary schools for example?

:35:10.:35:12.

Those things become more complicated. Yes it would be nice

:35:12.:35:16.

to do that, but we have a legal thing that you can't discriminate.

:35:16.:35:20.

Talking to the teaching profession. That discrimination happens all the

:35:20.:35:24.

time. I know talking to dad bloggers, in our community, that

:35:24.:35:29.

they are not welcome. We certainly had a dad blogger that I spoke to

:35:29.:35:33.

this week on Twitter, who said he had volunteered to help with an

:35:33.:35:36.

activity at his daughter's school and was told that it wasn't

:35:36.:35:40.

appropriate because he's a man. And the parents wouldn't feel

:35:40.:35:43.

comfortable. There is broader issues about welcoming more men

:35:43.:35:46.

into becoming involved with children. And let's not have the

:35:46.:35:49.

suspicious viewpoint of why does a man want to work with children and

:35:49.:35:52.

support children. I think actually that may show that this issue of

:35:52.:35:56.

the outcomes of children of single mothers being worse is not to do

:35:56.:36:01.

with the lack of male role models, it is to do with the lack of

:36:01.:36:04.

support for single women raising children. There is some truth in

:36:04.:36:09.

that but I add to it. You say it is a correlation between being a

:36:09.:36:12.

single parent and poor financial outcomes and poverty, it is a

:36:12.:36:14.

direct result of that. I don't think there is sufficient evidence

:36:14.:36:17.

to say that. One of the ways of getting around that would be to

:36:17.:36:21.

make sure that the father involved was financially connected to that

:36:21.:36:25.

child forever. I would take that stance. I will cut you off there,

:36:25.:36:28.

thank you both very much. There are reports tonight that the Syrian

:36:28.:36:33.

Government is readying itself for an attack on rebel held parts of

:36:33.:36:37.

Aleppo in the north of the country. The regime's resurgence is said to

:36:37.:36:41.

have much to do with support from Iran and Russia, while the rebels

:36:41.:36:45.

are funded by states in the gulf. What began as an internal uprising

:36:45.:36:49.

is turning into a proxy war between outside powers. Are the views of

:36:49.:36:52.

ordinary Syrians being forgotten in the process. Some within the

:36:52.:36:57.

country reject both the ray genome and the armed rebels and fear the

:36:57.:37:02.

intensification of the war will destroy any future hope of

:37:02.:37:12.

democracy in the country whoever wins.

:37:12.:37:18.

It is a short but misty road that winds down through Lebanon through

:37:18.:37:23.

Syria. An hour away across the border a civil war is raging. But

:37:23.:37:27.

here on Mount Lebanon, an old hill resort, offers security and calm

:37:27.:37:31.

for a group of Syrians from many backgrounds, who have gathered to

:37:31.:37:37.

talk about ending the conflict. We can only show a few of them,

:37:37.:37:44.

some think their discussions are too sensitive to be filmed. There

:37:44.:37:50.

are activists from Government and rebel-held areas and many religious

:37:50.:37:53.

sects, opposition supporters and Government loyalists. They haven't

:37:53.:37:55.

been brought together by outside powers, as diplomats are trying to

:37:55.:38:00.

do at Geneva. They have organised this meeting themselves. Above all,

:38:00.:38:06.

what they want is a Syrian solution to a Syrian crisis. We don't need

:38:06.:38:15.

any help. We go in this revolution, at 15th of March 2011 alone. We

:38:15.:38:21.

will continue alone. We will get our freedom and build our

:38:21.:38:25.

democratic state alone. We don't need any help from anybody. Just we

:38:25.:38:32.

have to stop the war now and to build a new state.

:38:32.:38:37.

They are discussing many scenarios, but they are agreed that Syrians

:38:37.:38:43.

shouldn't become pawns in other countries' games.

:38:43.:38:47.

Extraordinarily when Syria appears to have descended into a vortex of

:38:47.:38:52.

death and destruction, with outside powers competing to arm opposite

:38:52.:38:55.

sides, activists like this believe there is still enough political

:38:55.:39:01.

space, within their country, for a home-grown solution. The Syrians to

:39:01.:39:06.

persuade one another to stop fighting. This man was a law

:39:06.:39:09.

student until the law forced him to abandon his studies. He was

:39:09.:39:12.

somewhere in the crowd in this anti-Government demonstration in

:39:12.:39:17.

the spring of 2011 when Syrians like him still hoped for a peaceful

:39:17.:39:21.

revolution. But later instead of taking up arms as some of his

:39:21.:39:26.

friends did, he began organising workshops to bring citizens

:39:26.:39:33.

together. One a month ago included a fighter from the Shabiha, the

:39:33.:39:38.

pro-Assad militia, blamed for many atrocities. He came to the workshop,

:39:38.:39:46.

he just listened and he was active in the workshop. The second day he

:39:46.:39:52.

changed his mind and there is many, many exercises in this workshop. He

:39:52.:40:01.

has changed in it completely. After the workshop he just said that he

:40:01.:40:05.

will, through his weapon, he don't want -- I want to throw my weapon,

:40:05.:40:09.

I don't want my weapon any more. The war won't be stopped by a few

:40:09.:40:13.

individual changes of heart. But grass roots activists have brokered

:40:14.:40:16.

local ceasefires. Above all they are trying to keep institutions

:40:16.:40:22.

running amid the chaos and to prevent society breaking up.

:40:22.:40:25.

They are mixed schools, boys and girls together?

:40:25.:40:31.

But social activists run big risks. This young graduate from Aleppo

:40:31.:40:36.

dare not show her face on television. She moves back and

:40:36.:40:42.

forth from her home in a Government-held area. Braving a

:40:42.:40:46.

sniper's alley where people are shot every day. She has helped open

:40:46.:40:49.

schools for children who have had no education since the fighting

:40:49.:40:53.

began on the other side, schools that have to be protected from

:40:53.:40:55.

Government bombardment. TRANSLATION: We choose buildings

:40:55.:40:59.

away from the frontline, surrounded by higher buildings that shells

:40:59.:41:03.

can't reach. We don't use existing school buildings, we find other

:41:03.:41:08.

buildings and put desks in the basements. We block the roads

:41:08.:41:12.

leading to them and sandbag them. 1,000 children study at the new

:41:12.:41:17.

schools, some as young as these and some old enough to join the

:41:17.:41:20.

militias. TRANSLATION: Some children are whipped up with

:41:20.:41:25.

violent ideas and give up lessons. Our schools attract some children

:41:25.:41:30.

who would otherwise lose some of their chood childhood. This

:41:30.:41:34.

activist from the Turkish border is describing how she and other

:41:34.:41:39.

volunteers successfully took over the administration of her mixed

:41:39.:41:42.

Arab-Kurdish-Christian-Muslim town after Government forces withdrew.

:41:42.:41:48.

But things went wrong when rebel militias arrived. TRANSLATION:

:41:48.:41:53.

the revolution started women played a big role. For example we found

:41:53.:41:57.

food and shelter for internal refugees, we helped protect

:41:57.:42:01.

people's rights and freedoms. When armed groups arrived it led to

:42:01.:42:11.
:42:11.:42:12.

divisions in society. And everything collapsed. This

:42:12.:42:17.

participant has heard that Islamist militia wanted to stone women for

:42:17.:42:21.

adultery. She wants to know how civil society responded? But what

:42:21.:42:27.

can civil society do against guns? The aim here is to try to keep

:42:27.:42:31.

alive the spirit of the early days of the Syrian revolution. But

:42:31.:42:36.

perhaps that is just too idealistic. Many would say now the conflict can

:42:36.:42:42.

only end with a victory on the battlefield, or with a settlement

:42:42.:42:45.

imposed by outside powers. And that activists like these are just

:42:45.:42:49.

irrelevant. We are relevant, we are the Syrians. This is Syria, it is

:42:49.:42:53.

all about Syria. It is our will, afterall. But no-one is listening

:42:53.:42:58.

to you, you have no power or leverage? The fight be will stop.

:42:58.:43:03.

The fighting appears to be intensifying? Yes, but every war

:43:03.:43:08.

ends eventually. When it ends then the real players will appear. The

:43:08.:43:13.

players who are able to act in the society and to lead the society.

:43:13.:43:17.

They are not going to be necessarily the warlords.

:43:17.:43:19.

Today is the activists press conference. There were signs from

:43:20.:43:24.

the UN that one of their representatives may get invited to

:43:24.:43:29.

Geneva, if the peace talks go ahead. But the west's dealing mainly with

:43:29.:43:32.

the exiled politicians of the Syrian National Congress. And

:43:32.:43:38.

Britain and France are considering arming the rebels if talks fail.

:43:38.:43:42.

If they want to arm the Syrian rebels, did they ask the Syrian

:43:42.:43:47.

people? I don't think the people who have access to Mr Cameron are

:43:47.:43:51.

necessarily the people like you met here in this meeting. Most of the

:43:51.:43:56.

Syrians I know, they don't want their children to be killed in the

:43:56.:44:01.

civil war. Mohammed, like others who reject

:44:01.:44:05.

both the regime and the armed rebels has been intimidated by both

:44:05.:44:09.

sides. But he thinks only a third way will produce a country he can

:44:09.:44:15.

live in afterwards. Everyone will be living in a ghetto

:44:15.:44:20.

or a small camp, we want to have a modern society now. We want to

:44:20.:44:26.

build a stable society but we can't on the basis of such a split

:44:26.:44:32.

society. We are trying to preserve the society from collapsing.

:44:32.:44:37.

The activists relaxing after the workshops in their Lebanese

:44:37.:44:41.

hideaway have seen death all around them. They may be idealists, but

:44:41.:44:44.

they are not niave. They are thinking further ahead than the end

:44:44.:44:49.

of the war. They know a victory over a broken society is no victory

:44:49.:44:56.

at all. Workshops and democracy may seem a

:44:56.:45:02.

luxury now, but no-one will think that afterwards.

:45:02.:45:12.
:45:12.:45:12.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 85 seconds

:45:12.:46:37.

Hello there. Most parts of the UK have seen very little rain over the

:46:37.:46:41.

past week. But the dry spell is coming to an end. Rain arriving in

:46:41.:46:45.

the west overnight. Spreading slowly eastwards during the course

:46:45.:46:48.

of Tuesday, a very different day across Northern Ireland after some

:46:48.:46:52.

very warm sunshine of late. A wet morning, maybe a touch brighter in

:46:52.:46:56.

the afternoon. The rain also spreading its way across most of

:46:56.:47:00.

Scotland. Perhaps not reaching the far north-east. Here we should hang

:47:00.:47:03.

on to some sunshine. The bulk of Scotland and northern England a

:47:03.:47:09.

grey and damp day. The rain not particularly heavy. Iran many parts

:47:09.:47:13.

of eastern England will get away with a spit of drizzley rain.

:47:13.:47:18.

Brighter skies in the east until later on. A dull and damp start in

:47:18.:47:22.

the west Midland, good parts of Wales will brighten up nice low. A

:47:22.:47:25.

wet morning but the afternoon bringing sunshine. Also a bit of

:47:25.:47:35.
:47:35.:47:44.

warmth. Temperatures climbing to 18, Quite a bit of uncertainty about

:47:44.:47:46.

Wednesday's forecast. We are reasonably confident there will be

:47:46.:47:49.

a weather system across parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland,

:47:49.:47:52.

Mark Urban on Prism and internet privacy. Do children need dads? And from Lebanon, a report on the plans to rebuild post-war Syria.

Includes interview footage of NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, courtesy of 'The Guardian', Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras.