13/06/2013 Newsnight


13/06/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Tonight the crisis in care for the elderly, the crisis on your

:00:13.:00:16.

doorstep. While many disabled and elderly people do receive a good

:00:16.:00:23.

service at home, others are treated in ways which seem inhumane and

:00:23.:00:33.
:00:33.:00:41.

Eing -- England's Care Minister talk about a scheme to incentivise

:00:41.:00:46.

care. What can he do about it? Nick Clegg thought he killed a

:00:46.:00:50.

called snooper's charter, but we reveal a new push by Labour and

:00:50.:00:54.

Conservatives to give our spooks more power. In the category of

:00:54.:00:59.

medicine and sciences. The 16-year- old who has been called a superstar

:00:59.:01:03.

of science for developing a test for pancreatic cancer, we will hear

:01:03.:01:08.

what motivated him and ask whether his success could make science more

:01:08.:01:15.

popular in school. Brodie Murdoch is divorcing wind --

:01:15.:01:24.

Rupert Murdoch is divorcing his wife, who will protect him from pie

:01:24.:01:34.
:01:34.:01:37.

attacks. We will be talking about making stuff up and writing it down.

:01:37.:01:41.

Good evening, here is a glimpse into your future or that of someone

:01:41.:01:44.

you know and love. In old age health problems and disability

:01:44.:01:49.

confine you to your home, perhaps to your bed. Care workers look

:01:49.:01:53.

after you, but unluckily for you, the system according to the

:01:53.:01:57.

Government minister in charge in England, can incentivise poor care,

:01:57.:02:00.

low wages and neglect. There is a crisis of care delivered at home.

:02:00.:02:07.

Some of the shocking scenes that follow bear out that analysis.

:02:07.:02:13.

Muriel Price is 83 years old, she has been waiting 45-minutes for her

:02:13.:02:23.
:02:23.:02:35.

Incontinent she has been lying in bed for 13 hours as her carer was

:02:35.:02:42.

nearly one hour late. This footage was obtained by Muriel's grandson,

:02:42.:02:47.

who set up a CCTV operation to monitor his grandmother in case she

:02:47.:02:52.

fell. He didn't expect the cameras would film her in such distress.

:02:52.:02:57.

Muriel's is just one care users' story. The company responsible for

:02:57.:03:01.

her care was Mosaic, in a statement it said it was an award-winning

:03:01.:03:11.
:03:11.:03:26.

Muriel's family is not alone in feeling let down. A recent report

:03:26.:03:30.

by the regulator, the Care Quality Commission, suggested that a

:03:30.:03:38.

quarter of home care was failing to meet basic standards. Social Care

:03:38.:03:43.

Minister, Norman Lamb, says this is an industry in crisis. So he held a

:03:43.:03:48.

summit today of the Department of Health. In the room care providers,

:03:48.:03:52.

unions, charities and local Government. At this table they

:03:52.:03:57.

talked about the lack of dignity given to those being cared for. For

:03:57.:04:00.

example when carers don't ask the elderly what they want for

:04:00.:04:04.

breakfast. And they discussed the lack of training for carers. What

:04:04.:04:07.

the minister will have discovered in that room is that there was an

:04:07.:04:11.

awful lot of agreement. And of course what they all agree on is

:04:11.:04:15.

there isn't enough money, care workers say the providers don't Kay

:04:15.:04:20.

them enough. The providers say the authorities don't pay them enough.

:04:20.:04:27.

And local authorities want more funding from central Government.

:04:27.:04:31.

Did Norman Lamb promise any more money today? If you look at the

:04:31.:04:34.

economy there is little hope of any more entering the system. It really

:04:34.:04:38.

is a political question. We will continue to campaign for that could

:04:38.:04:42.

be the case. If that money doesn't materialise? Then we have real

:04:42.:04:45.

questions to ask about the sustainability of the home care

:04:45.:04:50.

sector for the future. Was the elephant in the room today funding?

:04:50.:04:55.

Certainly. There is an issue with the consumate resource that is

:04:55.:04:59.

available for care and support, not just home care, obviously across

:04:59.:05:06.

the whole system. A report from 2011 estimates that 219,000 direct

:05:06.:05:11.

care workers are being paid below the minimum wage. AIDS UK estimates

:05:11.:05:16.

that there will be an �800 million shortfall in social care funding

:05:16.:05:19.

this year, and local Government spending on older people's home

:05:19.:05:25.

care was reduceed by �148 million last year. Some of Muriel's carers

:05:25.:05:29.

behaved unprofessionally. But unions say most carers are

:05:29.:05:33.

dedicated and struggle to survive on the wages being offered. These

:05:33.:05:37.

are the lowest paid of the lowest paid. Many of them are paid on the

:05:37.:05:41.

minimum wage, but when you take account of not getting paid for

:05:41.:05:45.

travel time, not getting paid for times when they are waiting around.

:05:45.:05:48.

They are dropping below the minimum wage. Many are on zero hours

:05:48.:05:50.

contracts, which means they don't know what they are going to earn

:05:50.:05:55.

from one week to the next. Muriel is now being looked after in

:05:55.:05:57.

residential care. But ministers fear that many more elderly people

:05:57.:06:03.

are suffering. That the next big abuse scandal could be in the home

:06:03.:06:11.

care sector. I'm joined by the Care Minister Norman Lamb, Joan Bakewell

:06:12.:06:15.

a former Government adviser for the elderly, and the chief executive

:06:15.:06:18.

for the UK Home Care Association. That story is really appalling?

:06:18.:06:23.

is a familiar story. It is familiar? Oh yes. It was abundantly

:06:23.:06:27.

clear three years ago when I was the voice of older people for the

:06:27.:06:30.

Government. People wrote to me about the circumstances their

:06:30.:06:34.

relations were living in. You raise the issue and the right noises are

:06:34.:06:37.

made and nothing changes. It is going to get worse, and people are

:06:37.:06:41.

going to die and eventually someone will have to go to jail. These are

:06:41.:06:45.

going to be terrible circumstances. With an increased population and

:06:45.:06:50.

there is no career structure for caring. It is low wages, high

:06:50.:06:53.

turnover, no career prospects and very depressed work force. The fact

:06:53.:06:58.

that some of them are dedicated is a miracle of human kindness. Do you

:06:58.:07:02.

see that when the people that you deal with, do you see that picture?

:07:02.:07:07.

I recognise the picture about low pay. I think that is something we

:07:07.:07:10.

absolutely have to deal with. However, over half a million people

:07:10.:07:15.

receive care at home and the vast majority of that is really good and

:07:15.:07:19.

very liberating for them and entables them to remain at home. We

:07:19.:07:23.

do need to keep it in context. Indeed, but the company involved in

:07:23.:07:28.

this case is a member of your organisation, I just wanted to know

:07:28.:07:33.

if you had any sense of how many people in your organisation are not

:07:33.:07:39.

up to snuff, not doing it right? They have to sign up to a Code of

:07:39.:07:42.

Practise to join. This sort of behaviour by care workers

:07:42.:07:45.

contravenes that. One of the things we have to think about is whether

:07:45.:07:55.
:07:55.:07:59.

that membership can continue. said that 74% met all standards but

:07:59.:08:04.

that means 24% didn't? If you look at the CQC report, I'm not

:08:05.:08:08.

condoning it, but a quarter failed on one standard. They failed.They

:08:08.:08:12.

failed on one standard. They failed? It is not good enough, well,

:08:12.:08:16.

yeah, OK. The buck stops with you, doesn't it.

:08:16.:08:20.

You defined it as a crisis, how long do you wish to preside over a

:08:20.:08:24.

crisis? That is why I'm trying to take some action. I had met with

:08:24.:08:29.

care workers who work in people's homes and they told me about some

:08:29.:08:32.

of the really disturbing things that happen. I have talked to lots

:08:32.:08:36.

of people who have received care at home and I felt we needed to bring

:08:36.:08:40.

people together to really discuss. These are quite profound issues and

:08:40.:08:43.

the truth is that no Government of any political persuasion in a

:08:43.:08:47.

position at the moment to throw an enormous amount of extra money at

:08:47.:08:50.

the problem. So we have got to think of smarter ways of using the

:08:50.:08:53.

money. One of the things we have got to do is bring health and

:08:53.:08:59.

social care together. It is race Krayy, we have these two -- crazy,

:08:59.:09:04.

we have these two silos and we need to be smarter about bringing it

:09:04.:09:07.

together. Do you think money is part of the problem? The system is

:09:08.:09:11.

under enormous pressure. It is getting worse, we are getting older,

:09:11.:09:14.

austerity is biting, counsellings are complaining and so on?

:09:14.:09:18.

projections are alarming. That is why we have to think afresh. It has

:09:18.:09:22.

to be a collaboration between family, your local community and

:09:22.:09:27.

the statutory services. Statutory services supporting people to build

:09:27.:09:31.

their resilience to help them manage at home. But I think you

:09:31.:09:35.

know there are things that we have to do. We are consulting very soon

:09:35.:09:37.

on introducing much more effective corporate accountability. Because I

:09:38.:09:42.

think you know if you are making a profit out of care which is fine,

:09:42.:09:46.

there has to be accountability that goes with it. That is missing at

:09:46.:09:52.

the moment. Winter bourne View the scandal of people with learn

:09:52.:10:00.

daiblts being abused, what happened to the company or the people there,

:10:00.:10:04.

nothing. Who facilitated that abuse. We have to address corporate

:10:04.:10:07.

accountability. Much more difficult in people's individual homes isn't

:10:07.:10:11.

it? You are at your most vulnerable behind a closed front door with a

:10:11.:10:19.

one-to-one situation. But out there in London with a dedicated care

:10:19.:10:23.

worker, and watching him with the relationship he had with people

:10:23.:10:26.

he's looking after, that was inspiring. How do you drive up

:10:26.:10:29.

standards without making it so much that families can't afford it?

:10:29.:10:32.

have to agree there is not much more money going into the system.

:10:32.:10:37.

We have to think laterally with new ideas. I think we need to revise

:10:37.:10:45.

the view we have as caring as a profession. With training, status

:10:45.:10:49.

and a decent wage. With ways of behaving that don't require you to

:10:49.:10:54.

rush from one home to the next. won't get that if you pay the

:10:54.:10:59.

minimum wage or less than it because you don't pay travel?

:10:59.:11:03.

isn't the only thing in life, and the people who do the job speak of

:11:03.:11:07.

the reward of doing it. One of the things you mentioned is career

:11:07.:11:17.
:11:17.:11:17.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 458 seconds

:11:17.:18:56.

In terms of what he has done, how do you rate the enthusiasm and the

:18:56.:19:00.

way he has tackled this? I think the enthusiasm is inspirational.

:19:00.:19:06.

It's so fabulous to see a young man like Jack, or my PhD students

:19:06.:19:12.

working so hard with such a multi- faceted approach. What is wonderful

:19:12.:19:17.

about the approach is he's using engineering and biophysics with

:19:18.:19:20.

traditional medicine. That interplay is becoming important.

:19:20.:19:23.

Early detection can make a huge difference. We are not there yet.

:19:23.:19:28.

It is a really interesting test you can apply not just to pancreatic

:19:28.:19:31.

cancer but other cancers well and look at different proteins, not

:19:31.:19:36.

just the one he has identified. long a process do you expect now to

:19:36.:19:39.

go through the various stages before we can go into the doctors'

:19:39.:19:44.

surgery and it is a pretty cheap test if it works for everybody?

:19:44.:19:51.

What Jack has shown with his mixture of carbon nano tubes,

:19:51.:20:00.

detecting this niesothelum, important in pancreatic cancer, he

:20:00.:20:05.

can detect low levels, we can show clinicians that detecting it

:20:05.:20:08.

earlier is more favourable outcomes for patients. We need to test

:20:08.:20:12.

normal people to make sure you can't detect it. To test people

:20:12.:20:16.

with very early pancreatic cancer to make sure you can detect it and

:20:16.:20:20.

intervene and save lives. We should say one of the things is although

:20:20.:20:25.

there has been so many advances in if cancer treatment in the last 40

:20:25.:20:29.

years, pancreatic cancer same death rates at 30-40 years ago? The new

:20:30.:20:32.

advances in pancreatic cancer over the last couple of years, there

:20:32.:20:41.

have been a lot, have generally been restricted to

:20:41.:20:44.

chemotherapyudics, not the new treatment. This opens up

:20:44.:20:49.

possibilities that we can treat the cancers by targeting the protein

:20:49.:20:53.

that Jack has identified through a simple apparatus that combines

:20:53.:20:58.

different aspects of science. must be really excited? I'm pretty

:20:58.:21:03.

pump, it will be really exciting where it goes. You are talking to

:21:03.:21:06.

people here and tomorrow about it. What are your plans about being

:21:06.:21:09.

involved in the research and your future? Currently I have the

:21:09.:21:13.

international patent on the technology, and I'm in discussions

:21:13.:21:16.

with large Biotech companies in order to try to get in the market

:21:16.:21:20.

as soon as possible and collaberate with them on these large-scale

:21:20.:21:24.

clinical trials to prove efficacy. I'm currently working on something

:21:25.:21:33.

called the Try-Quarter Prize. It is to develop something the size of a

:21:33.:21:37.

smartphone to pass over your skin to diagnose everything. I'm pretty

:21:37.:21:42.

excited about that working with a high school theme. You were talking

:21:42.:21:47.

about the epiphany moment, it is something like eyes sack Newton

:21:47.:21:52.

getting hit on the head with the apple? I was thinking maybe if I

:21:52.:21:56.

can combine the two fields together, that is where you net revolutiony

:21:57.:22:01.

innovation when you combine unrelated fields into elegant

:22:02.:22:06.

solutions. In terms of enthusiasm, I'm thinking about how it might

:22:06.:22:09.

play with people in your own age and your own country, hearing

:22:09.:22:13.

people talk about science. Do you think you can turn people on to

:22:13.:22:16.

science? Definitely. What I really see is that when people in my

:22:16.:22:23.

school they see that I'm just a this regular kid in this school, it

:22:23.:22:26.

is a regular public school another inner city Baltimore, there is a

:22:26.:22:29.

lot of bad kids there. When they see me being able to do this great

:22:30.:22:35.

science they then see, hey maybe I can do that. There is a lot more

:22:35.:22:39.

people getting into and being able to do these amazing researches.

:22:39.:22:43.

That in itself is quite inspirational? It is massive, to

:22:43.:22:47.

inspire the next generation of kids and young adults to get into

:22:47.:22:51.

science and to try to make a difference to patients in the

:22:51.:22:53.

clinic and get a better education I think is absolutely fabulous. Well

:22:54.:22:59.

done. And just in terms of where we are with cancer treatments and

:22:59.:23:03.

cures. It is, there is no silver bullet but there has been a lot of

:23:03.:23:07.

advances as I suggested a moment ago? It is not just one thing. We

:23:07.:23:12.

are looking at better diagnostics and better detection. We need to

:23:12.:23:15.

consider better surgery, better therapy and chemotherapy and

:23:15.:23:19.

biological drugs and treatment as well. Together all of those little

:23:19.:23:22.

things together end up making a large difference to patients and

:23:22.:23:26.

increasing the cure rate. Thank you very much, and good luck with your

:23:26.:23:28.

work. Now senior Labour politicians have

:23:28.:23:31.

tonight joined with the Conservatives to push hard for what

:23:31.:23:36.

has been called the "snoopers' charter", the controversial

:23:36.:23:39.

Communications Data Bill, that has already split the coalition. It

:23:39.:23:45.

will give GCHQ, MI5 and other agencies the power to monitor

:23:45.:23:48.

internet use in the wake of a terrorist attack. Nick Clegg says

:23:48.:23:53.

it is a non-starter, as it is, without Labour support. That might

:23:53.:23:55.

be happening, creating potentionally big problems for Nick

:23:55.:24:04.

Clegg. Forensic science, psychological expertise, the

:24:04.:24:09.

emergency forces had tools and techniques at their disposal last

:24:09.:24:13.

month. And Drummer Lee Rigby was murdered in Woolich. But the calls

:24:13.:24:17.

for new powers are coming from our Security Services. They want

:24:17.:24:21.

communications firms forced to store our texts, e-mails,

:24:21.:24:25.

voicemails, the lot, to combat terrorism.

:24:25.:24:30.

A month earlier Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg heard this

:24:30.:24:36.

request and he simply said no. people have dubbed "the snoopers

:24:36.:24:39.

charter", that is not going to happen. The idea that the

:24:39.:24:43.

Government will pass a law which means there would be a record kept

:24:43.:24:49.

of every website you visit, of any, what you communicate with on social

:24:50.:24:53.

media sites. That's not going to happen. It is certainly not going

:24:53.:24:56.

to happen with Liberal Democrats in Government. The Conservative Party

:24:56.:25:01.

had increasingly been ploughing a lonely furrow on this issue. Until

:25:01.:25:05.

today, and what's perhaps quite a big development. In this letter,

:25:05.:25:09.

passed to Newsnight. Three former Labour home secretaries joined

:25:09.:25:13.

forces with three senior Conservative politicians and a Lib

:25:13.:25:18.

Dem peer to mount a fresh push for the Communications Data Bill. With

:25:18.:25:23.

more big voices saying "get on with it", things might be shifting back

:25:23.:25:27.

the Conservatives' way. What extra powers would be made

:25:27.:25:32.

available under the draft Data Communications Bill. For up to 12

:25:32.:25:36.

month data companies would be required to store social media

:25:36.:25:40.

messages, internet voice calls, e- mail, phone calls, including the

:25:40.:25:44.

location of the device that the call has been made from. Officials

:25:44.:25:48.

would not be allowed it see the content of any of these messages

:25:48.:25:54.

until the Home Secretary issued a warrant allowing them to do so.

:25:54.:25:59.

Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales was one of those who gave evidence to a

:25:59.:26:04.

committee of MPs and peers examining the bill last autumn. The

:26:04.:26:10.

committee was critical of the draft bill. With one peer decribing it as

:26:10.:26:15.

"a honey pot for hackers, criminals large and small from around the

:26:15.:26:25.
:26:25.:26:46.

The Conservative Ben Wallace is one of the MPs who organised the letter.

:26:46.:26:49.

It demonstrates that some very senior people, people with

:26:49.:26:51.

experience of Government and intelligence are saying there is a

:26:51.:26:55.

need for this. Time has run out, time to make the choice. And I

:26:55.:26:59.

think people shouldn't get hung up on parliamentary vehicles on how we

:26:59.:27:02.

achieve it. That is just a smoke screen for doing nothing and doing

:27:02.:27:06.

nothing is not an option. So I think those people need to decide

:27:06.:27:10.

what are they going to do to keep us safe and secure. Security

:27:10.:27:14.

Services have faced increasing difficulty over recent years, and

:27:14.:27:19.

in 2008 it was a Labour Government that attempted to boost their

:27:19.:27:24.

powers. Now, formally, the Labour Party is opposed to this

:27:24.:27:26.

legislation too. They have said they will only work with the

:27:26.:27:31.

Government on a revised bill. But senior Labour figures have made up

:27:31.:27:36.

their mind. They are piling on the pressure. We are serious about this.

:27:36.:27:42.

There is bipartisan support for this bill, and more overthere has

:27:42.:27:47.

been an all-party committee looking at the bill which has said to

:27:47.:27:52.

narrow it down and increase the safeguards. We say yes to that, and

:27:52.:27:57.

in those circumstances there is no reason why there shouldn't be a

:27:57.:28:01.

majority in the House of Commons from the Labour Party and the

:28:01.:28:03.

Conservative Party. As for Nick Clegg, he is not the only

:28:04.:28:07.

politician who has said things he may later regret or has had to move

:28:08.:28:13.

on. In my point of view he has to decide whether it is more important

:28:13.:28:16.

to support Google and other American companies or supporting

:28:16.:28:20.

reassurance for the British people. We still don't know what the

:28:20.:28:25.

official Labour Party position would be if a called "snooper's

:28:25.:28:28.

charter" was ever brought back to the House for a vote. It may be

:28:28.:28:34.

that doesn't matter. Right now the Home Office is working on ways to

:28:34.:28:37.

give our Security Services the new powers they say they need just

:28:37.:28:41.

doing it by the back door. What this letter shows is increasingly

:28:41.:28:46.

they have more and more political support for doing that. Opponents

:28:46.:28:50.

of these proposed new Security Service powers will now expect the

:28:50.:28:55.

Deputy Prime Minister to overcome an unusual coalition. The

:28:55.:29:00.

possibility of the Tories with Labour.

:29:00.:29:04.

The Lib Dem MP, Tom Brake, who has led his party's opposition to the

:29:04.:29:08.

Communications Data Bill is here. The battlelines are pretty clear

:29:08.:29:13.

here. Labour and the Conservatives, senior people in both parties, with

:29:13.:29:17.

long experience of Government take one view, and the Liberal Democrats

:29:17.:29:21.

are acting like they are still in opposition? It is not only the

:29:21.:29:23.

Liberal Democrats, but senior Conservatives who support the

:29:23.:29:29.

position we have got. Really nothing has changed. A letter has

:29:29.:29:33.

been published, but in practice we have looked at the bill, the bill

:29:33.:29:37.

is, there are parts of it which we have allowed to go forward in terms

:29:37.:29:42.

of the IP matching. That was in the Queen's Speech. That incidentally

:29:42.:29:46.

of the police said was their top priority, that is going forward.

:29:46.:29:50.

There are other aspects of what was proposed in the bill that was

:29:50.:29:54.

simply unworkable. There are other aspects which would have had a very

:29:54.:29:58.

heavy civil liberties impact. former home secretaries, three

:29:58.:30:02.

Labour one Conservative, and the former Conservative Defence

:30:02.:30:07.

Secretary, your own Lord Carlyle, they have experience of this stuff,

:30:07.:30:11.

seeing the things the security serves say they need, and Theresa

:30:11.:30:14.

May, who says you are putting politics before people's lives.

:30:14.:30:17.

Criminals go free and paedophiles not identified. They are all

:30:17.:30:22.

deluded are they? I don't agree with that. Some of those ex-Labour

:30:22.:30:30.

home secretaries were the ones advocating we needed 90-days

:30:30.:30:34.

prechurched detention. But the others deluded? There are

:30:34.:30:37.

differences, and within the coalition, that is why it is not

:30:37.:30:42.

possible to come to agreement. That is how policy work, there has to be

:30:42.:30:46.

agreement between parties, we have looked at the bill as did the joint

:30:46.:30:50.

committee. The joint committee was clear there were aspects of the

:30:50.:30:53.

bill they thought were uncosted and vague and it wouldn't deliver what

:30:53.:30:57.

the Government was hoping. Director of Public Prosecutions has

:30:57.:31:01.

suggested there is a risk to future prosecutions. Is there anything

:31:01.:31:05.

whatsoever that would change your mind? As I said our mind was

:31:05.:31:09.

changed in relation to IP matching, that is ensuring we know who is

:31:09.:31:14.

using a particular mobile device so it can be tracked. That is what the

:31:14.:31:17.

police said was their priority, we are delivering on that. When the

:31:17.:31:21.

next terrorist outrage happens you are going to be comfortable

:31:21.:31:24.

explaining your constituents why you took this principled position?

:31:24.:31:29.

Of course let's not forget that a lot of the data that the police and

:31:29.:31:34.

others want to access is actually there. It can be accessed using

:31:34.:31:37.

voluntary arrangements which work currently with companies like

:31:37.:31:40.

Google. That has proven very successful. But there is always a

:31:40.:31:44.

balance, I think you would accept between civil liberties on the one

:31:44.:31:50.

hand and trying to protect people from crimes. Your position makes

:31:50.:31:53.

people marginally less safe doesn't it? I don't agree with that. In

:31:53.:31:58.

fact if you look at the implications of what of the imfact

:31:58.:32:01.

of the Data Communications Bill had it gone forward. I think we would

:32:01.:32:06.

have seen a much less positive attitude from some of the large

:32:06.:32:11.

companies to working on a voluntary basis with the Government. But also

:32:11.:32:15.

why on earth should we support a bill which for instance would have

:32:15.:32:18.

required third party companies based abroad to provide data when

:32:18.:32:22.

we know that they are not going to do that, and had we tried to

:32:22.:32:26.

enforce that then of course we might have seen other countries,

:32:26.:32:29.

like China for instance, trying to require our ISPs, our companies

:32:29.:32:36.

here, to provide them with data. Everybody has a secret world inside

:32:36.:32:46.
:32:46.:32:46.

them, I mean everybody, No matter who they are, inside they have an

:32:46.:32:50.

unimaginable, magnificent, stupid, amazing world. If you are a fan you

:32:50.:32:53.

may have already recognised these words by the writer Neil Gaiman.

:32:53.:32:58.

They come from his highly successful Sandman series, which

:32:58.:33:04.

Norman Maler described as comic strips for intellectuals. He has a

:33:04.:33:09.

new novel out. Stephen Smith has been to see him. Adults follow

:33:09.:33:13.

paths, children explore. Adults are content to walk the same way

:33:13.:33:17.

hundreds of times or thousands. Perhaps it never occurs to adults

:33:17.:33:23.

to step off the paths, to cross- examine beneath the bushes to find

:33:23.:33:28.

the spaces between fences. I was a child, and would slip down the hill

:33:28.:33:34.

and over the rusting metal fence that boardered the lane.

:33:34.:33:38.

It is a very personal and odd little book. It definitely was my

:33:38.:33:44.

attempt to try to talk about the huge gulfs between childhood and

:33:44.:33:49.

adulthood. And the places that they are very, very similar, and those

:33:49.:33:53.

places where, from a child's point of view, you might as well be

:33:53.:33:58.

living on a different planet. Gaiman's new one starts with a

:33:58.:34:04.

suicide. Then there is adultery, child abuse, whoit witches and even

:34:04.:34:09.

devil birds. -- white witches and even devil birds. To qoch Liberace

:34:09.:34:15.

in the new film about him, "it has everything but a fire in the

:34:15.:34:21.

orphanage". Neil Gaiman wrote it for his wife, that's nice, I think?

:34:21.:34:25.

I thought I will write her a short story, and it would be about what

:34:26.:34:29.

it was like to look out my eyes when I was seven. The family won't

:34:29.:34:34.

quite be my family. The events will be invented. But I will recreate

:34:34.:34:38.

that landscape that no longer really exists. Mom, what are you

:34:38.:34:43.

doing here in the middle of the night. You are just intime for

:34:43.:34:49.

supper dear. You may already be film with Gaiman's dark children's

:34:49.:34:56.

book, Coraline was turned into a film. I'm your other mother.

:34:56.:35:02.

As was Stardust, one of the writer's fantasy stories. If you

:35:02.:35:05.

like this kind of thing, then this is the kind of thing you will like.

:35:05.:35:12.

But don't take our word for it. Here is a Hollywood producer.

:35:12.:35:18.

probably the greatest fantasy writer living. In my opinion. I

:35:18.:35:24.

think like all great fantasy his novels transcend genre. So let's

:35:24.:35:28.

put it this way, he is one of the greatest writers living, period,

:35:28.:35:32.

he's an original voice, in a very unoriginal world. I love talking

:35:32.:35:36.

about the world I'm in. I love talking about the world I'm

:35:36.:35:39.

observing. I always find it much more interesting if I can just turn

:35:39.:35:44.

it a little way and show it to people from a slightly different

:35:44.:35:49.

angle. On the one hand we are tremenduously sophisticated and we

:35:49.:35:56.

have our iPhones and Blackmore & Langdons berries. And on the other

:35:56.:36:00.

hand we Blackberries, but on the other hand we don't know how they

:36:00.:36:07.

work. And if you told me that the people at Apple have come clean and

:36:07.:36:13.

said it was elves that make it work, I would be OK. It would be good if

:36:13.:36:20.

it was? At least until they went on strike. Doctor Who, he hasn't on

:36:20.:36:24.

Newsnight for days. Neil Gaiman has written a few episodes. It is so

:36:24.:36:30.

very, very nice it meet you. I was incredibly happy with my first

:36:30.:36:36.

episode, doctor's wife, I felt like I got 97% of what I wanted to

:36:36.:36:40.

happen, happen. The new one. weren't trying to bring sex into

:36:40.:36:45.

the world of the Doctor? I think sex is always in the world of the

:36:45.:36:49.

Doctor, just properly repressed. Enough to give you dramatic tension

:36:49.:36:53.

all the time. It keeps threatening to bubble over now. People are

:36:53.:36:57.

writing about it all the time. Which is part of your legacy, I put

:36:57.:37:02.

it to you? I think that's a perfectly decent legacy to leave

:37:03.:37:08.

behind. Some of my highly trained colleagues on Newsnight are almost

:37:08.:37:18.
:37:18.:37:27.

literally bursting with excitement I'm delighted to hear they are,

:37:27.:37:31.

widdling themselves. They are, I will quote you back to them.

:37:31.:37:39.

Sandman was his twist on the legend of Morpheus, this programme is

:37:39.:37:44.

meaningless if it doesn't bring scoops about graphic fiction.

:37:44.:37:51.

Sandman is coming back. It is a six-issue prequel to Sandman. And I,

:37:51.:37:56.

it was one story that was left over one I finished the whole thing.

:37:56.:38:01.

Children's book, anyone can do them, it seems. Or at least celebrities

:38:01.:38:07.

are now, even footballers, Frank Lampard was quoted in the Guardian

:38:07.:38:11.

as saying he hopes one day to be able to write the whole thing

:38:11.:38:15.

himself. Everybody thinks they can write a children's book. Anybody

:38:15.:38:21.

who has ever had to tell their kid a story at night and have their kid

:38:21.:38:25.

go, your stories are better than anybody else's stories thinks they

:38:25.:38:30.

can write children's books. Every editor of children's books in the

:38:30.:38:33.

world is terrified that a successful adult novelist will send

:38:33.:38:42.

over their children's book, normally they will be terrible.

:38:42.:38:46.

Neil Gaiman has turned his boyhood daydreaming into a successful

:38:46.:38:51.

career. And he understands that in uncertain times fantasy offers the

:38:51.:39:01.
:39:01.:39:05.

on soothing rules. In a world in which there are very few

:39:05.:39:09.

certainties with technology, economic uncertainty, all sorts of

:39:09.:39:14.

things that seemed very set in stone 50 years ago, 100 years ago,

:39:14.:39:20.

even 25 years ago, now seem very in flux. I think fantasy, some kind of

:39:20.:39:24.

fantasy can definitely give you a world in which things seem more

:39:24.:39:32.

certain. The newspapers in a moment, first

:39:32.:39:37.

the great media baron Rupert Murdoch has filed for divorce

:39:37.:39:41.

through the New York Supreme Court, his wife Wendy Dung became well

:39:41.:39:46.

known after she sprang to her husband's defence after a protestor

:39:46.:39:53.

threw a custard pie at him as he testified before MPs. The couple

:39:53.:39:57.

married in 1999 and have two children. He was said to have paid

:39:57.:40:02.

out $1.7 billion to his previous wife, Anna, one of the most

:40:02.:40:09.

expensive divorces of all time. I have with me a representative of

:40:09.:40:18.

hundreds of wealthy clients in divorces and a author about Rupert

:40:18.:40:23.

Murdoch. It has been a bad couple of years? The hacking scandal that

:40:23.:40:27.

has split the company in two, and his son James won't be likely it

:40:27.:40:33.

take over and spliting from his wife for 11 years. Did you see that

:40:33.:40:35.

coming? Murdoch watchers knew there was something wrong in the

:40:35.:40:38.

relationship. It was an open secret in New York they were living apart.

:40:38.:40:43.

It is always a surprise when you have an 82-year-old man ripping up

:40:43.:40:48.

everything and starting all over again. In terms of the dynasty, the

:40:49.:40:52.

Murdoch dynasty that you alluded to, it seems to be a very big part of

:40:52.:40:56.

his life from his father through to his children. Does it throw some of

:40:56.:41:02.

that into question? I think it does. In the short run it looks as if

:41:02.:41:08.

Wendy Dung may not get any controlling shares in News Corp.

:41:08.:41:12.

Her children already have non- voting shares. Unless the divorce

:41:13.:41:16.

settlement throws up extra control for her, it is unlikely to have

:41:16.:41:20.

direct impact. She's a very forceful figure. We know his six

:41:20.:41:25.

children war with each other. The jury is out on that. In terms of

:41:25.:41:29.

filing for divorce in New York, is that a shrewd move or otherwise?

:41:29.:41:33.

would make a lot of sense for him. The understanding is he has a

:41:34.:41:43.

prenup and a couple of post-nups and that will protect his assets

:41:43.:41:49.

and the company. New York is very determined to uphold prenups. They

:41:49.:41:54.

can be challenged in the same way as here, duress, undue pressure or

:41:54.:41:58.

disclosure. They are pretty robust in taking a hardline to enforce him.

:41:58.:42:03.

If you do challenge it you get a lot of publicity, then it becomes

:42:03.:42:06.

public and part of the prenup will sort it out in a different way?

:42:06.:42:10.

What is useful about a prenup is confidentiality clauses which is

:42:10.:42:13.

great if you are a high-profile figure and you have a wife who

:42:13.:42:17.

might be party to all sorts of secrets that you prefer to keep

:42:17.:42:22.

under wraps. It makes sense to have those clauses and make the prenup

:42:22.:42:25.

work. If you try to take that to court you can fight the battle. You

:42:25.:42:29.

can get badly hit on costs if you try to fight a hopeless case.

:42:29.:42:34.

is a post-nup? That is an agreement you reach after the marriage.

:42:34.:42:37.

People do that for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they do it

:42:38.:42:41.

because there has been some sort of rift in the marriage. It is a way,

:42:41.:42:47.

it is scope for renegotiation and, or for levelling the playing field

:42:47.:42:50.

in some way. Sometimes it is because of a positive event, like

:42:50.:42:54.

the birth of a choild, and you might feel OK -- child, and you

:42:54.:42:59.

might field I want to give my husband or wife, whichever the

:42:59.:43:09.
:43:09.:43:14.

weaker party, a bit more university. In terms -- Stability.What does it

:43:14.:43:20.

contain, the amount per year or the children? Sometimes you have a

:43:20.:43:24.

prenup that doesn't provide anybody on either side. It is if someone

:43:24.:43:28.

has resources, it is commonor couples with later marriages with

:43:28.:43:31.

some independence. In a situation like this you would expect there to

:43:31.:43:35.

be provision for her, either a percentage, but that is unlikely

:43:35.:43:39.

with this sort of magnitude. You would expect a certain amount per

:43:39.:43:42.

year of the marriage, that would be a common structure. I was struck

:43:42.:43:47.

what you said at the start, which is a man of 82 tearing it up and

:43:47.:43:51.

starting again. Do you think he will go on forever? I think he

:43:51.:43:56.

would like to. There is no hint of him standing down. It is amazing

:43:56.:44:06.
:44:06.:44:06.

what he does aged 82, he runs this global multi million and colour

:44:06.:44:09.

media corporation that spans the globe. I think he's fascinated by

:44:09.:44:14.

the business and wants it carry on. He is very much in charge? There

:44:14.:44:17.

were some people speculating that he's much less in charge and will

:44:17.:44:22.

take more of a back seat and so on. That is not your reading of it?

:44:22.:44:26.

think he's still running the show firmly. He has always been less

:44:26.:44:31.

interested in the more profitable TV and film businesses than in the

:44:31.:44:35.

politically meddling newspaper businesses. Which keeps him going

:44:35.:44:38.

and gives him the park spark. But I don't think there is any sign that

:44:38.:44:42.

he will step down soon. We will have a look at the papers

:44:42.:44:46.

now: Some news while we were on airer,

:44:46.:44:52.

the White House has confirmed that the Assad regime, in their judgment,

:44:52.:44:59.

has indeed used chemical weapons against opposition forces. Or the

:44:59.:45:02.

the opposition. They say at least 150 death have been reported as a

:45:02.:45:05.

result of the use of the chemical weapons. They also say that

:45:05.:45:08.

President Obama has decided to provide some kind of military

:45:08.:45:11.

support for the opposition, although we have no details on that.

:45:11.:45:21.
:45:21.:45:57.

That came too early for the front That's all from us tonight, I will

:45:57.:46:07.
:46:07.:46:31.

be back with more tomorrow. Good Good evening, things quieten down

:46:31.:46:34.

overnight, at least for a time. There is another weather system

:46:34.:46:38.

coming in from the Atlantic. During the morning it is increasingly

:46:38.:46:41.

windy and wet in Northern Ireland, by the afternoon it looks pretty

:46:41.:46:47.

miserable. The rain will be heavy and persistent, and it will affect

:46:47.:46:51.

most areas. Underneath that it is 12-15 degrees. It is a cold and

:46:51.:46:55.

damp day. Meanwhile in Scotland the cloud is over through the morning,

:46:55.:46:59.

with outbreaks of rain with 14-15 years. Similar temperatures in

:46:59.:47:03.

northern England. A lot of showers in the afternoon, some heavy with

:47:03.:47:07.

the odd rumble of thunder. The showers fading away as you get

:47:07.:47:10.

towards the southern counties the sunshine in Kent, Sussex and all

:47:10.:47:14.

the way towards the south coast of Devon, a dry and bright day with

:47:14.:47:19.

sunny spells. A bit more cloud around in Cornwall, windy too.

:47:19.:47:22.

Windy across Wales, a fair bit of cloud and a scattering of showers

:47:22.:47:27.

through the afternoon. 15-16 degrees. Up toward the start of the

:47:27.:47:32.

weekends, I think one of the key features is it will be a windy day

:47:32.:47:35.

across all parts of the UK. Particularly so in the south. There

:47:35.:47:38.

will be a scattering of showers to go with the strong winds. They

:47:38.:47:43.

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