13/06/2013 Newsnight

Tonight the crisis in care for the elderly, the crisis on your

doorstep. While many disabled and elderly people do receive a good

service at home, others are treated in ways which seem inhumane and

Eing -- England's Care Minister talk about a scheme to incentivise

care. What can he do about it? Nick Clegg thought he killed a

called snooper's charter, but we reveal a new push by Labour and

Conservatives to give our spooks more power. In the category of

medicine and sciences. The 16-year- old who has been called a superstar

of science for developing a test for pancreatic cancer, we will hear

what motivated him and ask whether his success could make science more

popular in school. Brodie Murdoch is divorcing wind --

Rupert Murdoch is divorcing his wife, who will protect him from pie

attacks. We will be talking about making stuff up and writing it down.

Good evening, here is a glimpse into your future or that of someone

you know and love. In old age health problems and disability

confine you to your home, perhaps to your bed. Care workers look

after you, but unluckily for you, the system according to the

Government minister in charge in England, can incentivise poor care,

low wages and neglect. There is a crisis of care delivered at home.

Some of the shocking scenes that follow bear out that analysis.

Muriel Price is 83 years old, she has been waiting 45-minutes for her

Incontinent she has been lying in bed for 13 hours as her carer was

nearly one hour late. This footage was obtained by Muriel's grandson,

who set up a CCTV operation to monitor his grandmother in case she

fell. He didn't expect the cameras would film her in such distress.

Muriel's is just one care users' story. The company responsible for

her care was Mosaic, in a statement it said it was an award-winning

Muriel's family is not alone in feeling let down. A recent report

by the regulator, the Care Quality Commission, suggested that a

quarter of home care was failing to meet basic standards. Social Care

Minister, Norman Lamb, says this is an industry in crisis. So he held a

summit today of the Department of Health. In the room care providers,

unions, charities and local Government. At this table they

talked about the lack of dignity given to those being cared for. For

example when carers don't ask the elderly what they want for

breakfast. And they discussed the lack of training for carers. What

the minister will have discovered in that room is that there was an

awful lot of agreement. And of course what they all agree on is

there isn't enough money, care workers say the providers don't Kay

them enough. The providers say the authorities don't pay them enough.

And local authorities want more funding from central Government.

Did Norman Lamb promise any more money today? If you look at the

economy there is little hope of any more entering the system. It really

is a political question. We will continue to campaign for that could

be the case. If that money doesn't materialise? Then we have real

questions to ask about the sustainability of the home care

sector for the future. Was the elephant in the room today funding?

Certainly. There is an issue with the consumate resource that is

available for care and support, not just home care, obviously across

the whole system. A report from 2011 estimates that 219,000 direct

care workers are being paid below the minimum wage. AIDS UK estimates

that there will be an �800 million shortfall in social care funding

this year, and local Government spending on older people's home

care was reduceed by �148 million last year. Some of Muriel's carers

behaved unprofessionally. But unions say most carers are

dedicated and struggle to survive on the wages being offered. These

are the lowest paid of the lowest paid. Many of them are paid on the

minimum wage, but when you take account of not getting paid for

travel time, not getting paid for times when they are waiting around.

They are dropping below the minimum wage. Many are on zero hours

contracts, which means they don't know what they are going to earn

from one week to the next. Muriel is now being looked after in

residential care. But ministers fear that many more elderly people

are suffering. That the next big abuse scandal could be in the home

care sector. I'm joined by the Care Minister Norman Lamb, Joan Bakewell

a former Government adviser for the elderly, and the chief executive

for the UK Home Care Association. That story is really appalling?

is a familiar story. It is familiar? Oh yes. It was abundantly

clear three years ago when I was the voice of older people for the

Government. People wrote to me about the circumstances their

relations were living in. You raise the issue and the right noises are

made and nothing changes. It is going to get worse, and people are

going to die and eventually someone will have to go to jail. These are

going to be terrible circumstances. With an increased population and

there is no career structure for caring. It is low wages, high

turnover, no career prospects and very depressed work force. The fact

that some of them are dedicated is a miracle of human kindness. Do you

see that when the people that you deal with, do you see that picture?

I recognise the picture about low pay. I think that is something we

absolutely have to deal with. However, over half a million people

receive care at home and the vast majority of that is really good and

very liberating for them and entables them to remain at home. We

do need to keep it in context. Indeed, but the company involved in

this case is a member of your organisation, I just wanted to know

if you had any sense of how many people in your organisation are not

up to snuff, not doing it right? They have to sign up to a Code of

Practise to join. This sort of behaviour by care workers

contravenes that. One of the things we have to think about is whether

that membership can continue. said that 74% met all standards but

that means 24% didn't? If you look at the CQC report, I'm not

condoning it, but a quarter failed on one standard. They failed.They

failed on one standard. They failed? It is not good enough, well,

yeah, OK. The buck stops with you, doesn't it.

You defined it as a crisis, how long do you wish to preside over a

crisis? That is why I'm trying to take some action. I had met with

care workers who work in people's homes and they told me about some

of the really disturbing things that happen. I have talked to lots

of people who have received care at home and I felt we needed to bring

people together to really discuss. These are quite profound issues and

the truth is that no Government of any political persuasion in a

position at the moment to throw an enormous amount of extra money at

the problem. So we have got to think of smarter ways of using the

money. One of the things we have got to do is bring health and

social care together. It is race Krayy, we have these two -- crazy,

we have these two silos and we need to be smarter about bringing it

together. Do you think money is part of the problem? The system is

under enormous pressure. It is getting worse, we are getting older,

austerity is biting, counsellings are complaining and so on?

projections are alarming. That is why we have to think afresh. It has

to be a collaboration between family, your local community and

the statutory services. Statutory services supporting people to build

their resilience to help them manage at home. But I think you

know there are things that we have to do. We are consulting very soon

on introducing much more effective corporate accountability. Because I

think you know if you are making a profit out of care which is fine,

there has to be accountability that goes with it. That is missing at

the moment. Winter bourne View the scandal of people with learn

daiblts being abused, what happened to the company or the people there,

nothing. Who facilitated that abuse. We have to address corporate

accountability. Much more difficult in people's individual homes isn't

it? You are at your most vulnerable behind a closed front door with a

one-to-one situation. But out there in London with a dedicated care

worker, and watching him with the relationship he had with people

he's looking after, that was inspiring. How do you drive up

standards without making it so much that families can't afford it?

have to agree there is not much more money going into the system.

We have to think laterally with new ideas. I think we need to revise

the view we have as caring as a profession. With training, status

and a decent wage. With ways of behaving that don't require you to

rush from one home to the next. won't get that if you pay the

minimum wage or less than it because you don't pay travel?

isn't the only thing in life, and the people who do the job speak of

the reward of doing it. One of the things you mentioned is career

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 458 seconds

In terms of what he has done, how do you rate the enthusiasm and the

way he has tackled this? I think the enthusiasm is inspirational.

It's so fabulous to see a young man like Jack, or my PhD students

working so hard with such a multi- faceted approach. What is wonderful

about the approach is he's using engineering and biophysics with

traditional medicine. That interplay is becoming important.

Early detection can make a huge difference. We are not there yet.

It is a really interesting test you can apply not just to pancreatic

cancer but other cancers well and look at different proteins, not

just the one he has identified. long a process do you expect now to

go through the various stages before we can go into the doctors'

surgery and it is a pretty cheap test if it works for everybody?

What Jack has shown with his mixture of carbon nano tubes,

detecting this niesothelum, important in pancreatic cancer, he

can detect low levels, we can show clinicians that detecting it

earlier is more favourable outcomes for patients. We need to test

normal people to make sure you can't detect it. To test people

with very early pancreatic cancer to make sure you can detect it and

intervene and save lives. We should say one of the things is although

there has been so many advances in if cancer treatment in the last 40

years, pancreatic cancer same death rates at 30-40 years ago? The new

advances in pancreatic cancer over the last couple of years, there

have been a lot, have generally been restricted to

chemotherapyudics, not the new treatment. This opens up

possibilities that we can treat the cancers by targeting the protein

that Jack has identified through a simple apparatus that combines

different aspects of science. must be really excited? I'm pretty

pump, it will be really exciting where it goes. You are talking to

people here and tomorrow about it. What are your plans about being

involved in the research and your future? Currently I have the

international patent on the technology, and I'm in discussions

with large Biotech companies in order to try to get in the market

as soon as possible and collaberate with them on these large-scale

clinical trials to prove efficacy. I'm currently working on something

called the Try-Quarter Prize. It is to develop something the size of a

smartphone to pass over your skin to diagnose everything. I'm pretty

excited about that working with a high school theme. You were talking

about the epiphany moment, it is something like eyes sack Newton

getting hit on the head with the apple? I was thinking maybe if I

can combine the two fields together, that is where you net revolutiony

innovation when you combine unrelated fields into elegant

solutions. In terms of enthusiasm, I'm thinking about how it might

play with people in your own age and your own country, hearing

people talk about science. Do you think you can turn people on to

science? Definitely. What I really see is that when people in my

school they see that I'm just a this regular kid in this school, it

is a regular public school another inner city Baltimore, there is a

lot of bad kids there. When they see me being able to do this great

science they then see, hey maybe I can do that. There is a lot more

people getting into and being able to do these amazing researches.

That in itself is quite inspirational? It is massive, to

inspire the next generation of kids and young adults to get into

science and to try to make a difference to patients in the

clinic and get a better education I think is absolutely fabulous. Well

done. And just in terms of where we are with cancer treatments and

cures. It is, there is no silver bullet but there has been a lot of

advances as I suggested a moment ago? It is not just one thing. We

are looking at better diagnostics and better detection. We need to

consider better surgery, better therapy and chemotherapy and

biological drugs and treatment as well. Together all of those little

things together end up making a large difference to patients and

increasing the cure rate. Thank you very much, and good luck with your

work. Now senior Labour politicians have

tonight joined with the Conservatives to push hard for what

has been called the "snoopers' charter", the controversial

Communications Data Bill, that has already split the coalition. It

will give GCHQ, MI5 and other agencies the power to monitor

internet use in the wake of a terrorist attack. Nick Clegg says

it is a non-starter, as it is, without Labour support. That might

be happening, creating potentionally big problems for Nick

Clegg. Forensic science, psychological expertise, the

emergency forces had tools and techniques at their disposal last

month. And Drummer Lee Rigby was murdered in Woolich. But the calls

for new powers are coming from our Security Services. They want

communications firms forced to store our texts, e-mails,

voicemails, the lot, to combat terrorism.

A month earlier Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg heard this

request and he simply said no. people have dubbed "the snoopers

charter", that is not going to happen. The idea that the

Government will pass a law which means there would be a record kept

of every website you visit, of any, what you communicate with on social

media sites. That's not going to happen. It is certainly not going

to happen with Liberal Democrats in Government. The Conservative Party

had increasingly been ploughing a lonely furrow on this issue. Until

today, and what's perhaps quite a big development. In this letter,

passed to Newsnight. Three former Labour home secretaries joined

forces with three senior Conservative politicians and a Lib

Dem peer to mount a fresh push for the Communications Data Bill. With

more big voices saying "get on with it", things might be shifting back

the Conservatives' way. What extra powers would be made

available under the draft Data Communications Bill. For up to 12

month data companies would be required to store social media

messages, internet voice calls, e- mail, phone calls, including the

location of the device that the call has been made from. Officials

would not be allowed it see the content of any of these messages

until the Home Secretary issued a warrant allowing them to do so.

Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales was one of those who gave evidence to a

committee of MPs and peers examining the bill last autumn. The

committee was critical of the draft bill. With one peer decribing it as

"a honey pot for hackers, criminals large and small from around the

The Conservative Ben Wallace is one of the MPs who organised the letter.

It demonstrates that some very senior people, people with

experience of Government and intelligence are saying there is a

need for this. Time has run out, time to make the choice. And I

think people shouldn't get hung up on parliamentary vehicles on how we

achieve it. That is just a smoke screen for doing nothing and doing

nothing is not an option. So I think those people need to decide

what are they going to do to keep us safe and secure. Security

Services have faced increasing difficulty over recent years, and

in 2008 it was a Labour Government that attempted to boost their

powers. Now, formally, the Labour Party is opposed to this

legislation too. They have said they will only work with the

Government on a revised bill. But senior Labour figures have made up

their mind. They are piling on the pressure. We are serious about this.

There is bipartisan support for this bill, and more overthere has

been an all-party committee looking at the bill which has said to

narrow it down and increase the safeguards. We say yes to that, and

in those circumstances there is no reason why there shouldn't be a

majority in the House of Commons from the Labour Party and the

Conservative Party. As for Nick Clegg, he is not the only

politician who has said things he may later regret or has had to move

on. In my point of view he has to decide whether it is more important

to support Google and other American companies or supporting

reassurance for the British people. We still don't know what the

official Labour Party position would be if a called "snooper's

charter" was ever brought back to the House for a vote. It may be

that doesn't matter. Right now the Home Office is working on ways to

give our Security Services the new powers they say they need just

doing it by the back door. What this letter shows is increasingly

they have more and more political support for doing that. Opponents

of these proposed new Security Service powers will now expect the

Deputy Prime Minister to overcome an unusual coalition. The

possibility of the Tories with Labour.

The Lib Dem MP, Tom Brake, who has led his party's opposition to the

Communications Data Bill is here. The battlelines are pretty clear

here. Labour and the Conservatives, senior people in both parties, with

long experience of Government take one view, and the Liberal Democrats

are acting like they are still in opposition? It is not only the

Liberal Democrats, but senior Conservatives who support the

position we have got. Really nothing has changed. A letter has

been published, but in practice we have looked at the bill, the bill

is, there are parts of it which we have allowed to go forward in terms

of the IP matching. That was in the Queen's Speech. That incidentally

of the police said was their top priority, that is going forward.

There are other aspects of what was proposed in the bill that was

simply unworkable. There are other aspects which would have had a very

heavy civil liberties impact. former home secretaries, three

Labour one Conservative, and the former Conservative Defence

Secretary, your own Lord Carlyle, they have experience of this stuff,

seeing the things the security serves say they need, and Theresa

May, who says you are putting politics before people's lives.

Criminals go free and paedophiles not identified. They are all

deluded are they? I don't agree with that. Some of those ex-Labour

home secretaries were the ones advocating we needed 90-days

prechurched detention. But the others deluded? There are

differences, and within the coalition, that is why it is not

possible to come to agreement. That is how policy work, there has to be

agreement between parties, we have looked at the bill as did the joint

committee. The joint committee was clear there were aspects of the

bill they thought were uncosted and vague and it wouldn't deliver what

the Government was hoping. Director of Public Prosecutions has

suggested there is a risk to future prosecutions. Is there anything

whatsoever that would change your mind? As I said our mind was

changed in relation to IP matching, that is ensuring we know who is

using a particular mobile device so it can be tracked. That is what the

police said was their priority, we are delivering on that. When the

next terrorist outrage happens you are going to be comfortable

explaining your constituents why you took this principled position?

Of course let's not forget that a lot of the data that the police and

others want to access is actually there. It can be accessed using

voluntary arrangements which work currently with companies like

Google. That has proven very successful. But there is always a

balance, I think you would accept between civil liberties on the one

hand and trying to protect people from crimes. Your position makes

people marginally less safe doesn't it? I don't agree with that. In

fact if you look at the implications of what of the imfact

of the Data Communications Bill had it gone forward. I think we would

have seen a much less positive attitude from some of the large

companies to working on a voluntary basis with the Government. But also

why on earth should we support a bill which for instance would have

required third party companies based abroad to provide data when

we know that they are not going to do that, and had we tried to

enforce that then of course we might have seen other countries,

like China for instance, trying to require our ISPs, our companies

here, to provide them with data. Everybody has a secret world inside

them, I mean everybody, No matter who they are, inside they have an

unimaginable, magnificent, stupid, amazing world. If you are a fan you

may have already recognised these words by the writer Neil Gaiman.

They come from his highly successful Sandman series, which

Norman Maler described as comic strips for intellectuals. He has a

new novel out. Stephen Smith has been to see him. Adults follow

paths, children explore. Adults are content to walk the same way

hundreds of times or thousands. Perhaps it never occurs to adults

to step off the paths, to cross- examine beneath the bushes to find

the spaces between fences. I was a child, and would slip down the hill

and over the rusting metal fence that boardered the lane.

It is a very personal and odd little book. It definitely was my

attempt to try to talk about the huge gulfs between childhood and

adulthood. And the places that they are very, very similar, and those

places where, from a child's point of view, you might as well be

living on a different planet. Gaiman's new one starts with a

suicide. Then there is adultery, child abuse, whoit witches and even

devil birds. -- white witches and even devil birds. To qoch Liberace

in the new film about him, "it has everything but a fire in the

orphanage". Neil Gaiman wrote it for his wife, that's nice, I think?

I thought I will write her a short story, and it would be about what

it was like to look out my eyes when I was seven. The family won't

quite be my family. The events will be invented. But I will recreate

that landscape that no longer really exists. Mom, what are you

doing here in the middle of the night. You are just intime for

supper dear. You may already be film with Gaiman's dark children's

book, Coraline was turned into a film. I'm your other mother.

As was Stardust, one of the writer's fantasy stories. If you

like this kind of thing, then this is the kind of thing you will like.

But don't take our word for it. Here is a Hollywood producer.

probably the greatest fantasy writer living. In my opinion. I

think like all great fantasy his novels transcend genre. So let's

put it this way, he is one of the greatest writers living, period,

he's an original voice, in a very unoriginal world. I love talking

about the world I'm in. I love talking about the world I'm

observing. I always find it much more interesting if I can just turn

it a little way and show it to people from a slightly different

angle. On the one hand we are tremenduously sophisticated and we

have our iPhones and Blackmore & Langdons berries. And on the other

hand we Blackberries, but on the other hand we don't know how they

work. And if you told me that the people at Apple have come clean and

said it was elves that make it work, I would be OK. It would be good if

it was? At least until they went on strike. Doctor Who, he hasn't on

Newsnight for days. Neil Gaiman has written a few episodes. It is so

very, very nice it meet you. I was incredibly happy with my first

episode, doctor's wife, I felt like I got 97% of what I wanted to

happen, happen. The new one. weren't trying to bring sex into

the world of the Doctor? I think sex is always in the world of the

Doctor, just properly repressed. Enough to give you dramatic tension

all the time. It keeps threatening to bubble over now. People are

writing about it all the time. Which is part of your legacy, I put

it to you? I think that's a perfectly decent legacy to leave

behind. Some of my highly trained colleagues on Newsnight are almost

literally bursting with excitement I'm delighted to hear they are,

widdling themselves. They are, I will quote you back to them.

Sandman was his twist on the legend of Morpheus, this programme is

meaningless if it doesn't bring scoops about graphic fiction.

Sandman is coming back. It is a six-issue prequel to Sandman. And I,

it was one story that was left over one I finished the whole thing.

Children's book, anyone can do them, it seems. Or at least celebrities

are now, even footballers, Frank Lampard was quoted in the Guardian

as saying he hopes one day to be able to write the whole thing

himself. Everybody thinks they can write a children's book. Anybody

who has ever had to tell their kid a story at night and have their kid

go, your stories are better than anybody else's stories thinks they

can write children's books. Every editor of children's books in the

world is terrified that a successful adult novelist will send

over their children's book, normally they will be terrible.

Neil Gaiman has turned his boyhood daydreaming into a successful

career. And he understands that in uncertain times fantasy offers the

on soothing rules. In a world in which there are very few

certainties with technology, economic uncertainty, all sorts of

things that seemed very set in stone 50 years ago, 100 years ago,

even 25 years ago, now seem very in flux. I think fantasy, some kind of

fantasy can definitely give you a world in which things seem more

certain. The newspapers in a moment, first

the great media baron Rupert Murdoch has filed for divorce

through the New York Supreme Court, his wife Wendy Dung became well

known after she sprang to her husband's defence after a protestor

threw a custard pie at him as he testified before MPs. The couple

married in 1999 and have two children. He was said to have paid

out $1.7 billion to his previous wife, Anna, one of the most

expensive divorces of all time. I have with me a representative of

hundreds of wealthy clients in divorces and a author about Rupert

Murdoch. It has been a bad couple of years? The hacking scandal that

has split the company in two, and his son James won't be likely it

take over and spliting from his wife for 11 years. Did you see that

coming? Murdoch watchers knew there was something wrong in the

relationship. It was an open secret in New York they were living apart.

It is always a surprise when you have an 82-year-old man ripping up

everything and starting all over again. In terms of the dynasty, the

Murdoch dynasty that you alluded to, it seems to be a very big part of

his life from his father through to his children. Does it throw some of

that into question? I think it does. In the short run it looks as if

Wendy Dung may not get any controlling shares in News Corp.

Her children already have non- voting shares. Unless the divorce

settlement throws up extra control for her, it is unlikely to have

direct impact. She's a very forceful figure. We know his six

children war with each other. The jury is out on that. In terms of

filing for divorce in New York, is that a shrewd move or otherwise?

would make a lot of sense for him. The understanding is he has a

prenup and a couple of post-nups and that will protect his assets

and the company. New York is very determined to uphold prenups. They

can be challenged in the same way as here, duress, undue pressure or

disclosure. They are pretty robust in taking a hardline to enforce him.

If you do challenge it you get a lot of publicity, then it becomes

public and part of the prenup will sort it out in a different way?

What is useful about a prenup is confidentiality clauses which is

great if you are a high-profile figure and you have a wife who

might be party to all sorts of secrets that you prefer to keep

under wraps. It makes sense to have those clauses and make the prenup

work. If you try to take that to court you can fight the battle. You

can get badly hit on costs if you try to fight a hopeless case.

is a post-nup? That is an agreement you reach after the marriage.

People do that for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they do it

because there has been some sort of rift in the marriage. It is a way,

it is scope for renegotiation and, or for levelling the playing field

in some way. Sometimes it is because of a positive event, like

the birth of a choild, and you might feel OK -- child, and you

might field I want to give my husband or wife, whichever the

weaker party, a bit more university. In terms -- Stability.What does it

contain, the amount per year or the children? Sometimes you have a

prenup that doesn't provide anybody on either side. It is if someone

has resources, it is commonor couples with later marriages with

some independence. In a situation like this you would expect there to

be provision for her, either a percentage, but that is unlikely

with this sort of magnitude. You would expect a certain amount per

year of the marriage, that would be a common structure. I was struck

what you said at the start, which is a man of 82 tearing it up and

starting again. Do you think he will go on forever? I think he

would like to. There is no hint of him standing down. It is amazing

what he does aged 82, he runs this global multi million and colour

media corporation that spans the globe. I think he's fascinated by

the business and wants it carry on. He is very much in charge? There

were some people speculating that he's much less in charge and will

take more of a back seat and so on. That is not your reading of it?

think he's still running the show firmly. He has always been less

interested in the more profitable TV and film businesses than in the

politically meddling newspaper businesses. Which keeps him going

and gives him the park spark. But I don't think there is any sign that

he will step down soon. We will have a look at the papers

now: Some news while we were on airer,

the White House has confirmed that the Assad regime, in their judgment,

has indeed used chemical weapons against opposition forces. Or the

the opposition. They say at least 150 death have been reported as a

result of the use of the chemical weapons. They also say that

President Obama has decided to provide some kind of military

support for the opposition, although we have no details on that.

That came too early for the front That's all from us tonight, I will

be back with more tomorrow. Good Good evening, things quieten down

overnight, at least for a time. There is another weather system

coming in from the Atlantic. During the morning it is increasingly

windy and wet in Northern Ireland, by the afternoon it looks pretty

miserable. The rain will be heavy and persistent, and it will affect

most areas. Underneath that it is 12-15 degrees. It is a cold and

damp day. Meanwhile in Scotland the cloud is over through the morning,

with outbreaks of rain with 14-15 years. Similar temperatures in

northern England. A lot of showers in the afternoon, some heavy with

the odd rumble of thunder. The showers fading away as you get

towards the southern counties the sunshine in Kent, Sussex and all

the way towards the south coast of Devon, a dry and bright day with

sunny spells. A bit more cloud around in Cornwall, windy too.

Windy across Wales, a fair bit of cloud and a scattering of showers

through the afternoon. 15-16 degrees. Up toward the start of the

weekends, I think one of the key features is it will be a windy day

across all parts of the UK. Particularly so in the south. There

will be a scattering of showers to go with the strong winds. They