12/06/2013 Newsnight


12/06/2013

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The question was should I lead it through privatisation, or did the

:00:13.:00:17.

board want to find someone else to do that? The answer was someone

:00:17.:00:21.

else. So the boss of the Royal Bank of Scotland is stepping down. What

:00:21.:00:30.

next for the bank we own? Are we rushing to privatise? We hear the

:00:30.:00:33.

voices of the dead in the Bangladesh factory collapse, the

:00:34.:00:43.
:00:44.:00:56.

day before the disaster. They spoke After five years of deliberation

:00:56.:01:00.

and millions of pounds spent, the National Health Service still can't

:01:00.:01:03.

decide what to do to improve the care of children having heart

:01:03.:01:08.

surgery. We will hear from both sides of what is now a very heated

:01:08.:01:17.

debate. And never mind Greece and Cyprus,

:01:17.:01:23.

what if Germany ditched the eurozone? This man has started a

:01:23.:01:33.
:01:33.:01:35.

new political party in Germany to get out of the euro.

:01:35.:01:40.

Thank you and good night. The man hired to restore the standing of

:01:40.:01:43.

Royal Bank of Scotland. The once functioning bank which the taxpayer

:01:43.:01:47.

has the dubious pleasure of owning most of is off. Leaving, stepping

:01:47.:01:52.

down, moving on, pastures new, time for a fresh challenge. All the

:01:52.:01:56.

usual talk was dispensed this evening as Stephen Hester, the

:01:56.:02:00.

chief executive, disclosed he's loaf. The official line is his work

:02:00.:02:05.

is done and the bank wants someone else to take things on from here.

:02:05.:02:09.

But our Economics Editor is here, Paul Mason. What sort of job has he

:02:09.:02:14.

done? In October 2008 and February 2009 the Government had to

:02:14.:02:20.

nationalise RBS to stop the economy collapsing. Its other big obsession

:02:20.:02:25.

at the time was to not own or control a bank. So no real

:02:25.:02:29.

nationalisation but it bought 80- odd per cent of the bank. It paid

:02:29.:02:34.

therefore over the odds of what it could have paid had it just seized

:02:34.:02:38.

the bank at its lowest ebb. And Hester comes in to run it in such a

:02:38.:02:42.

way that eventually it would be sold. The original plan is you are

:02:42.:02:47.

in it as a global, pin-stripe wheeler dealer bank with an

:02:47.:02:50.

investment arm and US arm and eventually everything goes right.

:02:50.:02:53.

The problem was, first of all the economy was worse than they

:02:53.:02:57.

expected and it carried on being worse than they expected. Banking

:02:57.:03:01.

regulation was tougher than I think Labour expected it to be. Tougher

:03:01.:03:05.

than they originally proposed. He has ended up with a bank that

:03:05.:03:09.

instead of growing and reviving as a big bank has had to be broken

:03:09.:03:14.

down and shrunk down and bits of it are being sold off. Was he sacked?

:03:14.:03:21.

He wasn't sacked but he was sort of carrys, paper bag and off you go. I

:03:21.:03:28.

think is the tradition in the city. George Osborne thinks this bank can

:03:28.:03:34.

be privatised before the election. The chairman, Sir Philip Hampton

:03:34.:03:39.

thinks it can be privatised before the election. Hester has had to put

:03:39.:03:45.

in with all political interference, Vince Cable chipping in saying lend

:03:45.:03:50.

to SMEs, and others chipping in saying don't lend. The idea this is

:03:50.:03:54.

a dead-cert that can be sold without losing money, in his

:03:54.:03:58.

statement tonight he gave an interview to my clog earlier, see

:03:58.:04:02.

what you think -- colleague earlier, see what you think, I don't think

:04:03.:04:07.

he's as convinced as others. believe RBS will be privatiseable

:04:07.:04:13.

then, in the sense that it will have cleaned the bank up and

:04:13.:04:19.

predictable and so forth. Share prices, who knows? If the key to

:04:19.:04:27.

privatisation is share price A or B that is harder to predict. The

:04:27.:04:31.

clean-up job, the restructuring of the the normal bank that is mostly

:04:31.:04:41.
:04:41.:04:43.

delivered already. What are the options? A popular idea, not at the

:04:43.:04:47.

Treasury, is you sell it off, the good parts and the bad parts, the

:04:47.:04:51.

Government sticks with the bad parts, same as Northern Rock. That

:04:51.:04:57.

option is less and less likely if George Osborne apoints somebody who

:04:57.:05:00.

believes like he does that the bank can be sold quickly. The problem,

:05:01.:05:04.

however, while getting rid of somebody who was a bit sceptical

:05:04.:05:07.

and didn't like the interference, the problem is this, to sell a bank

:05:07.:05:11.

you have to have a guy standing there and saying guy this and

:05:11.:05:15.

maximise the profits for the child -- buy this and maximise the

:05:15.:05:20.

profits for the shareholder, us the taxpayer. Once you you have done

:05:20.:05:23.

that you have to represent the new shareholders, those who have bought

:05:23.:05:27.

the shares. It is not so much conflict of interest, but conflict

:05:27.:05:30.

of emphasis might have been better handled if one guy had sold the

:05:30.:05:34.

bank and another guy runs it after sale. The analysts will now have a

:05:35.:05:43.

very good look, if you have chairman/boss, George Osborne, and

:05:43.:05:47.

CEO lining up to say buy this bank it is a great deal for the taxpayer,

:05:47.:05:51.

the analysts will have a good at this, especially when we know who

:05:51.:05:57.

it is. Lord Myners, who was City Minister when Stephen Hester was

:05:57.:06:01.

appointed chief executive at RBS, he's also here. What do you think,

:06:01.:06:07.

was he sacked? I think that the pressure, the Treasury were

:06:07.:06:11.

imposing on the board of RBS made Stephen Hester's position close to

:06:11.:06:16.

impossible. He has made it very clear he didn't really want to go

:06:16.:06:21.

now. He is going because the board has said he should go. I think they

:06:21.:06:27.

are doing the bidding of George Osborne? So George Osborne said

:06:27.:06:32.

time this chap slung his hook? George Osborne has been

:06:32.:06:35.

increasingly at odds with Stephen Hester over the management of the

:06:35.:06:38.

bank. He has been interfering and talking about the need to close

:06:38.:06:41.

down the investment banking side, get out of the American business.

:06:41.:06:46.

Drawing, of course, on his huge experience as a businessman. Just

:06:46.:06:51.

pointing out for the benefit of the audience you are being sarcastic?

:06:51.:06:54.

am. One of the problems in Government when it comes to making

:06:54.:06:59.

decision about -- decisions about business is the lack of

:06:59.:07:03.

understanding. Hester has done extremely good job against a very

:07:03.:07:06.

demanding agenda. He has performed extremely well for the owners of

:07:06.:07:09.

the bank, for the tax-payers, and the taiblt of the banking system.

:07:09.:07:16.

It is possible he has just lost any stomach for the fight? If lost

:07:16.:07:20.

stomach for the fight he wouldn't have given an interview to the

:07:20.:07:24.

Financial Times saying he was up for the fight and looking forward

:07:24.:07:29.

to staying on for the period post- privatisation. At the end of last

:07:29.:07:32.

week I believe Stephen Hester had to idea he was going. Interestingly

:07:32.:07:36.

the press are reporting that Sir Philip Hampton, the chairman of RBS

:07:36.:07:40.

was ringing potentially candidates for the job last week. This was all

:07:40.:07:45.

going on behind Stephen Hester's back. The board of RBS is going to

:07:46.:07:50.

have to answer some serious questions about what role it plays.

:07:50.:07:55.

If it is simply doing what George Osborne tells them it is not

:07:55.:07:58.

performing as a responsible board representing the interests of all

:07:58.:08:01.

shareholders. Why not?Because their job is to make a decision

:08:01.:08:07.

about the management of the bank in the interests. It is the taxpayer?

:08:07.:08:12.

The taxpayer is one very large shareholder. 81%, that is a

:08:12.:08:15.

controlling share? It is a controlling share, but there is

:08:15.:08:19.

also �12 billion worth of equity held by people's pension funds and

:08:19.:08:23.

insurance policies. The board of directors is charged under law with

:08:23.:08:29.

making obtdive decisions, taking into account -- objective decisions,

:08:29.:08:33.

taking into account the express wishes of shareholders, not doing

:08:33.:08:37.

what George Osborne tells them to do. This is an unstable bank. It

:08:37.:08:40.

will lose its chief executive this year, its Finance Director this

:08:40.:08:44.

year, its head of retail banking and investment banking and the head

:08:44.:08:48.

of the American business, there is something deeply wrong in the

:08:48.:08:54.

senior management team of RBS. it worth a buying spree then?

:08:54.:08:58.

knows. We won't answer questions about budgets until you get to

:08:58.:09:02.

general elections. Who knows where the market may be in 12 months time.

:09:02.:09:07.

I think George Osborne has a political eye on a give away of

:09:07.:09:11.

bank shares, possibly to a broad audience, but particularly to his

:09:11.:09:15.

wealthy chums, high tax-payers in the city. Come along, this is

:09:15.:09:20.

really cheap? It is not cheap, we will see what happens. He might

:09:20.:09:24.

make a general offering to the public. He might be like Sid in

:09:24.:09:28.

British Gas? He might give the shares away, it is highly unlikely.

:09:28.:09:32.

He's much more likely to give the shares to those who have the money,

:09:32.:09:41.

not those struggling to make ends meet on very low incomes. This is

:09:41.:09:44.

another policy to encourage a warm feeling among natural supporters

:09:44.:09:47.

ahead of the general election. just trying to recover from the

:09:47.:09:51.

fact that you paid too much money for it? We put sufficient money

:09:51.:09:56.

into the banks to ensure it had adequate capital so depositors were

:09:56.:10:00.

not at risk. That is the key thing we did. We took action to protect

:10:00.:10:04.

the banking system. In hindsight one might have done things

:10:04.:10:06.

differently. At the time we achieved what we set out to do.

:10:06.:10:11.

would have done things differently? The Lloyd's share price is already

:10:11.:10:15.

above the price we paid. In due course RBS share price will be,

:10:15.:10:17.

whether that will happen ahead of the general election, who knows?

:10:17.:10:21.

There is no need for him to give it away then, if the share price is

:10:21.:10:24.

going to go that high? That is one of the big questions that needs to

:10:24.:10:34.

be asked. Clearly UKFI does not believe it is the right to sell the

:10:34.:10:38.

shares because it has not given the Government that advice. What about

:10:38.:10:40.

Stephen Hester's argument that it needs somebody else to take things

:10:40.:10:44.

on, he has done all the awful hard work. He used twice in his

:10:44.:10:50.

statement at RBS, he used the expression of "being in the trench"

:10:50.:10:54.

which suggests it is a horrible environment and all that is over

:10:54.:10:57.

now and it needs someone else? is a valid argument. But if you

:10:57.:11:00.

look at what he said, he said I didn't want to go now it is the

:11:00.:11:05.

board's decision. I think there is some putting together of credible

:11:05.:11:09.

arguments to make what appears to have happened, I think in quite a

:11:09.:11:13.

rush over the last couple of days, look as though it is more rational

:11:13.:11:20.

and carefully thought through. Now at 9.00am on the 24th of April

:11:20.:11:28.

this year an eight storey building in Bangladesh collapsed. Over 100

:11:28.:11:34.

dead, most of them making clothe -- 1100 dead, most of them making

:11:34.:11:39.

clothes for the west. This wasn't a tragedy without warning, far from

:11:39.:11:43.

it. Workers had been complaining about cracks in the building for

:11:43.:11:47.

weeks. The day before it collapsed there was even a formal safety

:11:47.:11:50.

inspection. Our reporter has been back to learn what happened that

:11:50.:12:00.

day. The entire world watched in horror

:12:00.:12:04.

whilst the Rana Plaza disaster unfolded. What they didn't know was

:12:04.:12:07.

just the day before the police and local authorities had closed down

:12:07.:12:11.

the building, saying it was too dangerous to work there. If the

:12:11.:12:21.
:12:21.:12:26.

building had remained closed, this tragedy would never have happened.

:12:26.:12:29.

For weeks the workers had been complaining about cracks in the

:12:29.:12:35.

building. Finally on the 23rd of April, less than 24 hours before it

:12:35.:12:39.

collapsed the police, engineers and members of the industry trade

:12:39.:12:43.

organisation came to inspect the building. They immediately

:12:43.:12:50.

evacuated everyone and shut it down. That day journalists Greg

:12:51.:12:59.

Mulholland filmed a report on theically -- filmed a report on the

:12:59.:13:09.
:13:09.:13:29.

local television. It has never been How do you feel when you see this

:13:29.:13:33.

footage and you had spoken to all these people who didn't want to go

:13:33.:13:43.
:13:43.:14:12.

into the factory the day before and He got the last interview with a

:14:12.:14:22.
:14:22.:14:43.

some what agitated Sohel Rana, the Sohel Rana had strong local

:14:43.:14:47.

political connections and he used them. Realising that if the

:14:47.:14:50.

building was closed he would lose a fortune in urgent foreign orders,

:14:50.:14:54.

it is believed that he persuaded someone to unlook the doors. On the

:14:54.:14:59.

next day the 24th of April the factories were open for business.

:14:59.:15:02.

The workers were frightened about going back inside the building, but

:15:02.:15:12.
:15:12.:15:30.

they were more scared about losing At 9.00am on the 24th of April the

:15:30.:15:34.

electricity stopped. That is nothing uncommon, as usual the

:15:34.:15:44.
:15:44.:15:44.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds

:15:44.:16:28.

generator kicked in. That's when I reached around two minutes short

:16:28.:16:32.

of 9.20 to the Rana Plaza. The building collapsed like a pancake,

:16:32.:16:39.

you know. Standing at this building site, you get a sense of the scale

:16:39.:16:44.

of this tragedy. Walking on top of people's saris, and tissues and

:16:44.:16:54.
:16:54.:17:29.

It is impossible to rescue without the help of common volunteers and

:17:29.:17:37.

local people. They came initially with love for their own brothers,

:17:37.:17:47.
:17:47.:17:47.

sisters, mothers who were inside. One of those was this man nearby, a

:17:47.:17:57.
:17:57.:17:57.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds

:17:57.:19:03.

slight man, he was able to get into He amputated Anna's right hand with

:19:03.:19:06.

a hacksaw because the attending doctors were too frightened to go

:19:06.:19:12.

into the ruins. He saved 34 lives and amputated in total three limbs.

:19:12.:19:17.

According to him more than 200 people lost their limbs in the Rana

:19:17.:19:22.

Plaza collapse. To get out Reshma Begum had to have both legs

:19:22.:19:32.
:19:32.:20:07.

Just as the authorities were about to give up hope of finding anyone

:20:07.:20:13.

else alive, on the 17th day after the collapse, someone heard a sound.

:20:13.:20:17.

Trapped deep down inside the building and surrounded by rubble,

:20:17.:20:22.

Reshma Begum was clinged on to life. She had survived on water and a few

:20:22.:20:32.
:20:32.:20:32.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds

:20:32.:21:37.

She was perhaps hours away from adding to the death toll of 1,230.

:21:37.:21:41.

Families are now being promised over $10,000 for each victim and

:21:41.:21:45.

are being looked after in a modern private hospital. Government

:21:45.:21:50.

engineers claim that 60% of factories are unsafe. Seven

:21:50.:21:54.

building inspectors have now been sacked, including those responsible

:21:54.:22:02.

for Rana Plaza. I checked out a few local buildings to see what was

:22:02.:22:07.

happening. Some factories like this one were closed down days after

:22:07.:22:12.

Rana Plaza. Here at this bench someone was working away, it seems

:22:12.:22:15.

like as soon as it was announced that this building was unsafe to

:22:16.:22:19.

work in, they left immediately and we can see some of their unfinished

:22:19.:22:24.

work and some of the things that were completed. The workers here

:22:24.:22:32.

have no idea when they can come back to work. I'm about to go into

:22:32.:22:36.

a factory that the unions are very concerned about. They are concerned

:22:36.:22:41.

about the working conditions and the safety. On top of that, this

:22:41.:22:44.

yellow sign here says that everyone in this building should be

:22:44.:22:49.

evacuated, because the building has cracks in it and poses a risk to

:22:49.:22:59.

workers and anyone else entering. Imagine my is surprise on

:22:59.:23:02.

discovering over 350 people working there. Their manager wanted to know

:23:02.:23:09.

I was on his shop floor. Why does the sign outside say "do not enter

:23:09.:23:18.

this building it is risky, it has cracks in it"? Who?The yellow sign

:23:18.:23:28.
:23:28.:23:45.

As I left my heart sank with the feeling that the Rana Plaza tragedy

:23:45.:23:51.

could so easily happen again. Could these people be the next

:23:51.:23:56.

casualties? The insatible appetite in the west for cheap clothing and

:23:56.:24:00.

the vast profits to be made in Bangladesh means we cannot be sure

:24:00.:24:04.

that there won't be more owners turning a blind eye to health and

:24:04.:24:08.

safety conditions. On the international level 38 western

:24:08.:24:12.

companies like Zara and Primark have signed an agreement to improve

:24:12.:24:19.

local safety conditions. However 15 American companies, including Wal-

:24:19.:24:23.

Mart and Gap have refused to join in, they say they are pursuing

:24:23.:24:32.

their own safety checks. That was �6 million well spent. It

:24:32.:24:35.

emerged today that the National Health Service has wasted five

:24:35.:24:39.

years failing to settle the question of whether operation on

:24:39.:24:42.

children's hearts ought to be concentrated in fewer hospitals. It

:24:42.:24:47.

is not so much they are going back to the drawing board as they have

:24:47.:24:51.

discovered they have never left it. This as one part of the publicly

:24:51.:24:56.

funded health service involve another part of the publicly-funded

:24:56.:25:01.

health service in a publicly-funded court. For those campaigning to

:25:01.:25:06.

keep their local units, today brought a welcome reprieve. Some

:25:06.:25:10.

are parents, they are loyal to the cardiac surgeons who helped their

:25:10.:25:13.

children. We are absolutely delighted. Everything that we said

:25:13.:25:17.

was wrong with the review has been proved to be wrong with the review.

:25:18.:25:22.

And the fact that it is all going to be looked at again is just

:25:22.:25:26.

brilliant. But this decision is a big setback for the national

:25:26.:25:31.

reconfiguration, the NHS has to undertake. We are quite concerned

:25:31.:25:34.

that children's lives and their quality of life are very much at

:25:34.:25:39.

risk with the continuing delay. units around the country specialise

:25:40.:25:45.

in children's cardiac surgery. After much debate, and a major

:25:45.:25:48.

consultation, it was decided only seven would be safe and sustainable

:25:48.:25:54.

for the future. The other three, Leeds General Infirmary, Glenfield

:25:54.:25:59.

in Leicester, and Royal Brompton in west London, should stop doing

:25:59.:26:02.

these operations. Campaigners fought hard against the decision,

:26:02.:26:07.

some went to court. Today a report by the Independent Reconfiguration

:26:07.:26:11.

Panel said the original decision process was flawed. They said it

:26:11.:26:17.

had concentrated too much on the surgery alone. As a surgeon clearly

:26:17.:26:21.

I would focus on the surgical element, but we were asked to

:26:21.:26:25.

review the whole pathway of care from beginning to end and whether

:26:25.:26:29.

proposals that had been put forward by safe and sustainable would be

:26:29.:26:33.

sustainable in the long-term and accessible to patients. So the

:26:33.:26:37.

evidence we took and we heard from lots of people who felt that would

:26:37.:26:43.

not be the case. So the difficult decision, which units to close, has

:26:43.:26:49.

been postponed. I therefore accept their recommendation that the

:26:49.:26:54.

proposals cannot go ahead in that current form and I'm suspending the

:26:54.:26:57.

review today. NHS England will also seek to withdraw its appeal against

:26:57.:27:06.

the judicial review successfully achieved by Sabar Surgery in Leeds.

:27:06.:27:11.

Nonetheless the IRP is clear the clinical case for change remains.

:27:11.:27:13.

The Health Secretary said there is consensus that these difficult

:27:13.:27:16.

operations should be done in fewer centres across the country. He

:27:16.:27:20.

didn't set a deadline for that reorganisation. It is up to NHS

:27:20.:27:24.

England to come up with a new way forward by the end of July. They

:27:25.:27:28.

said there should be plans for implementation within the next 12

:27:28.:27:35.

months. While many families in workshire campaign to keep the

:27:35.:27:39.

specialist unit in Leeds General Infirmary, some support the

:27:39.:27:42.

reorganisation. Michelle Elliot's daughter, Jessica, was born with a

:27:42.:27:46.

heart defect. As she grew up her heart grew weaker. Two years ago

:27:46.:27:51.

she became very ill indeed. She was a patient at Leeds General

:27:51.:27:55.

Infirmary. She couldn't get up the stairs, she wasn't eating, she was

:27:55.:28:00.

grey. I was constantly being told I was a pedantic mum and she's not

:28:00.:28:04.

sick enough yet. Children have to be much sicker than Jessica to get

:28:04.:28:09.

a transplant. So there was a constant refusal to refer her up to

:28:09.:28:13.

a different unit. According to Michelle it took months before

:28:14.:28:19.

Jessica was referred to the Freeman Hospital in Newcastle. She was

:28:19.:28:23.

gravely ill and had a transplant within weeks. Michelle has since

:28:23.:28:26.

met other families who have travelled for treatment. We are 15

:28:26.:28:30.

families within the group who have all decided their child would have

:28:31.:28:34.

a better outcome from surgery at a larger centre. They have taken

:28:34.:28:40.

their children to the Freeman. If I had to take Jessica to China every

:28:40.:28:45.

week for a superior service I would do. Today the Health Secretary said

:28:45.:28:55.
:28:55.:29:04.

he had full confidence in the unit. It is nearly 20 years since a

:29:04.:29:09.

surgeon blew a whistle at Bristol royal infermy, revealing many

:29:09.:29:14.

children -- infirmary, revealing that many children were dying

:29:14.:29:18.

before and after heart surgery. It was said that children's heart

:29:18.:29:25.

surgeries should be done in fewer and more specialist centres, where

:29:25.:29:28.

surgeons and nurses had most expert advertise. The longer that is

:29:28.:29:31.

delayed the more the existing service is affected. Already we are

:29:31.:29:36.

beginning to see a crumbling of the service. We are finding because of

:29:36.:29:40.

the uncertainty the current service are reluctant to recruit or replace

:29:40.:29:44.

staff as they leave. They are reluctant to replace equipment and

:29:44.:29:50.

so on. All this delay will do is continue what I would regard as

:29:50.:29:56.

disinvestment. Reconfiguration is one of the great challenges facing

:29:56.:30:00.

the NHS. The example of children's heart surgery shows just how

:30:00.:30:07.

difficult it can be. Sir Ian Kennedy who was mentioned in the

:30:07.:30:13.

piece is here now. Greg Mulholland is the Lib Dem MP for Leeds North.

:30:13.:30:20.

That hospital was one of three due to have its cardiac surgery

:30:20.:30:24.

provision removed, which Mr Mulholland has campaigned

:30:24.:30:30.

vigorously against. It is a dozen years since your report? My feeling

:30:30.:30:33.

today can be captured in the word "despair". Here we are again, it is

:30:33.:30:38.

a sad day for children, it is a sad day for parents. Because Government

:30:38.:30:43.

seems to have found another reason to do nothing. This time the

:30:43.:30:46.

reasons are flawed process, previously there were other reasons.

:30:46.:30:51.

The fact remains we know the answer, there should be fewer centres, but

:30:51.:30:55.

we don't have the decision, so parents and children are left where

:30:55.:31:01.

they have been for a long time. is pathetic, 12 years, isn't it?

:31:01.:31:07.

is a failure of significant order. It is not a proud day for the NHS

:31:07.:31:11.

today. The opportunity was there. We have had report after report

:31:11.:31:15.

after report. Somebody has to make a decision. You can argue about

:31:15.:31:19.

this judgment or that judgment, this is flawed, that is flawed. We

:31:19.:31:23.

have been up and down courts and everywhere else, we have got a

:31:23.:31:26.

strange of options. The Secretary of State is the political person

:31:26.:31:33.

who has to make that decision. are the MP for Leeds North West.

:31:33.:31:38.

You campaigned to keep your local hospital going in this business.

:31:38.:31:41.

Presumably you think this is a victory do you? I do think it is a

:31:41.:31:44.

victory, Jeremy. I don't think it is a victory for Leeds or indeed

:31:44.:31:49.

for the other two hospitals. Today is a victory for accountability in

:31:49.:31:52.

the NHS. You could put it like that or say it is a victory for

:31:52.:31:55.

indecision? What is clear is that today we have had some leadership

:31:55.:32:00.

and we have had accountability. And I can tell you that, and I made

:32:00.:32:04.

this clear to Lord Ribeiro when we had the independent reconfiguration

:32:04.:32:08.

panel, I made clear to them if this is about a local centre and trying

:32:08.:32:12.

to save our own hospital you would take that with a pinch of salt. We

:32:12.:32:16.

are telling you we have seen clear evidence that we had that this

:32:16.:32:21.

process has been flawed and biased and there has been a complete lack

:32:21.:32:24.

of transparency. That is simply not an acceptable way to make a

:32:24.:32:31.

decision. I hard Lord Ribeiro talk about we concentrated too much on

:32:31.:32:35.

the surgery. I'm flabbergasted. We looked at the intensive care,

:32:35.:32:39.

cardiology, the number of nurses, we looked at the Ronald McDonald

:32:39.:32:43.

home for parents. Goodness me. I think I understand Mr Mulholland's

:32:43.:32:48.

position. He's doing what he thinks is in the interests of the local

:32:48.:32:53.

electorate. But I have to say to him. Not true.I have to say to him

:32:53.:32:58.

now this is not about him and it is not only about the constituents of

:32:58.:33:02.

Leeds. Absolutely, it is about the NHS and the fundamental lack of

:33:02.:33:07.

accountability. It is not.I have to say Sir Ian there are people you

:33:07.:33:11.

know in this review who have wasted millions of tax-payers' money by

:33:11.:33:14.

following through a process that has been done, in the words of a

:33:14.:33:19.

High Court judge, as being "fundamentally unfair". If that had

:33:19.:33:25.

not been the case, if this process had been done. This is the problem

:33:25.:33:28.

you won't reach rational decisions and you are shouted at. It was a

:33:28.:33:33.

flawed decision, accept that. say part of my group which

:33:33.:33:41.

consisted of a lot of commissions and nurses. One of them was a

:33:41.:33:44.

mother whole child died during surgery at the Bristol Royal

:33:44.:33:48.

Infirmary, you are telling me that she was in any way involved in

:33:48.:33:53.

anything other than the most poignant pursuit in the interests

:33:53.:34:00.

of everybody. It is not about Leeds, it is not you, can I finish. That

:34:00.:34:04.

is what I said, do not misrepresent my position. Can I finish the

:34:04.:34:09.

sentence. It is about the future of children who either do need or will

:34:09.:34:14.

need this form of surgery. They deserve the best possible surgical

:34:14.:34:20.

care. We know that means that they should go to fewer sent. What we

:34:20.:34:27.

are held up by -- centres. What we are held up by is the altar of

:34:27.:34:31.

misplaced localism for an abdication of decision making.

:34:31.:34:36.

accept there are places that will close. As long as it isn't Leeds.

:34:36.:34:40.

Let's get an answer? That is unfair and offensive. I'm asking you a

:34:40.:34:43.

straight question do you accept there are some places that need to

:34:43.:34:47.

close? I accept the decision has to be made on evidence. Sir Ian's

:34:47.:34:50.

review that he had to take some responsibility. Do you accept some

:34:50.:34:54.

places have to close, you haven't answer that? You look at Scotland

:34:54.:34:57.

or the rest of the continent. is your answer to the question?

:34:57.:35:01.

There may not be a need for the number of closures we talked about.

:35:01.:35:05.

There is only one centre. This is very interesting, this is a world

:35:05.:35:09.

authority here, and you say, you represent, you are not a doctor are

:35:10.:35:17.

you? A High Court judge, and I quote "fundamentally unfair". The

:35:17.:35:20.

Independent Reconfiguration Panel said serious criticisms. Instead of

:35:20.:35:25.

turning it on me, he's the person who came up with the absurd idea to

:35:25.:35:29.

put on his review panel surgeons who are associated, or even at the

:35:29.:35:33.

units that may close. That is nonsense, that is like saying for

:35:33.:35:40.

his review on MPs' pay that we should decide how to do it. It is

:35:40.:35:50.
:35:50.:35:53.

not true. We have had an independent panel look at this, and

:35:53.:35:56.

they have thrown it out, and it has wasted �6 million. We have had

:35:56.:35:59.

court, Court of Appeal, independent reconfiguration review, my review,

:35:59.:36:04.

Bristol, another review. The review has been flawed. Your review has

:36:04.:36:08.

been flawed. You have been partly responsible for wasting �6 million

:36:08.:36:13.

of tax-payers' money. Don't talk nonsense Mr Mulholland. That is the

:36:13.:36:17.

reality found by the independent reconfiguration panel as well as a

:36:17.:36:20.

High Court judge. The money has been blown, no argument about that.

:36:20.:36:23.

The Secretary of State made a judgment about it. It was

:36:24.:36:28.

inadequate. The money need never have been spent. The answer we know

:36:28.:36:35.

is there must be fewer centres. not according to him. That's just

:36:35.:36:40.

simply nonsense, internationally and nationally it is accepted that

:36:40.:36:45.

children deserve. That isn't true. Mr Mulholland you seem to be

:36:45.:36:49.

capable of embracing a number of propositions that have no evidence.

:36:49.:36:53.

The problem is your review was not based on evidence that is why it is

:36:53.:36:58.

deemed to be fundamentally flawed. Fundamentally flawed by the NHS

:36:58.:37:02.

Independent Reconfiguration Panel. It would be good if you could

:37:02.:37:06.

accept some response responsibility for that. Or tell us the people on

:37:06.:37:11.

the review panel who badly let down those children and tax-payers'

:37:11.:37:16.

money. The triumph of rhetoric over reality. I'm talking about evidence

:37:16.:37:19.

I have seen, evidence in your failed review with your name on.

:37:19.:37:22.

This is so depressing on it, that you are trying to do something for

:37:22.:37:26.

the welfare of children who are currently not receiving optimal

:37:26.:37:32.

care. So are we. Thank you both very much. The

:37:32.:37:36.

eurocrisis is over, don't take my word for it although the crisis

:37:36.:37:39.

gave us a very good living for a while. Take it from the President

:37:40.:37:43.

of France if it has really been settled it is because the

:37:43.:37:47.

generosity of the Germans, where belief in the European Union is

:37:48.:37:53.

taken in with mother milk. However late in the day a party has emerged

:37:53.:37:59.

to say "enough". It not as try dent as UKIP, but it is ready to say the

:37:59.:38:06.

unsayable, like the euro is nuts. When this is the thanks they get

:38:06.:38:09.

for continued bail outs from countries like Greece or Cyprus, it

:38:09.:38:14.

is little wonder the patience of many Germans is just running out. A

:38:14.:38:23.

recent poll by Focus Magazine, showed 26% would consider voting

:38:23.:38:30.

for an anti-euro party. So this man, a former World Bank adviser, is he

:38:30.:38:35.

the man to whom they will return. After 33 years as a member of

:38:35.:38:39.

Angela Merkel's centre right party, he decided he had enough of a

:38:39.:38:45.

coalition he felt now was misguided. In February this year he founded

:38:45.:38:50.

Germany's first anti-euro party. Simply named Alternative for

:38:50.:38:57.

Germany. What do you think has gone wrong

:38:57.:39:02.

with the European project? I think we made one step of integration

:39:02.:39:09.

which was too much. It was the common currency. We now know this

:39:09.:39:15.

was a big, big mistake and a great failure. But it is not as if people

:39:15.:39:19.

weren't warned beforehand. It was pointed out by dozens and dozens of

:39:19.:39:23.

people that the economy of a country like Germany is completely

:39:23.:39:27.

different to some of those other countries in the Mediterranean?

:39:27.:39:31.

That's true, but not many people believe the message of economists.

:39:31.:39:37.

That is perhaps part of our fate. That is quite sensible at times too.

:39:37.:39:41.

Given that there was a warning, and given that the decision, none the

:39:41.:39:46.

less, was made to go ahead with it. It indicates, does it not, an

:39:46.:39:51.

almost religious faith? I wouldn't say that it is religious. You know

:39:51.:39:56.

that Germans are very favourable of European integration and to think

:39:56.:40:02.

that there was some belief that the euro would exert some competitive

:40:02.:40:07.

pressure which led to structural adjustment in say the Mediterranean

:40:07.:40:10.

countries. Your country did very well out of the euro too?

:40:10.:40:14.

really because in the first years of the euro Germany had the lowest

:40:15.:40:19.

growth rate in the eurozone. managed to achieve a great deal in

:40:19.:40:24.

export markets during the creation of the eurozone didn't you?

:40:24.:40:31.

true. The great boom in exports was later between 2001-2005. We

:40:31.:40:37.

actually had trouble living in the eurozone. What is your suggesting

:40:37.:40:44.

solution then? Our solution is we dissolve the euro by first letting

:40:44.:40:51.

the Mediterranean countries exit in a gradual way. Which may well take

:40:51.:40:57.

on four or five years. That later on we split the rest of the

:40:57.:41:02.

euroRhone either in smaller currency areas 0 -- euroareas,

:41:02.:41:07.

either in smaller currency areas or back to their own currencies.

:41:07.:41:12.

Angela Merkel said if the euro fails Europe fails? I'm afraid the

:41:12.:41:17.

euro splits Europe into two parts. Into a stagnant part, southern

:41:17.:41:21.

Europe, which is deeply in recession, with high rates of

:41:21.:41:26.

unemployment and youth unemployment with great deficits on current

:41:26.:41:31.

accounts. With a lack of competitiveness. And then the

:41:31.:41:36.

central European part which is still doing fairly well, but which

:41:36.:41:39.

has these high obligations to pay for the debt of the southern

:41:40.:41:43.

countries. We will have to pay for that with inflation or higher taxes

:41:43.:41:48.

or expenditure cuts. You wouldn't go so far as to advocate leaving

:41:48.:41:52.

the European Union all together would you? Not at all. We want to

:41:52.:41:57.

reform the European Union and one reform step would be to abolish the

:41:57.:42:01.

common currency. It is very interesting, the debate in this

:42:01.:42:05.

country is very different. Of course we are not in the euro?

:42:05.:42:09.

aware of that. We are sometimes quite grateful for it too. We are

:42:09.:42:13.

not in the euro. But there is, in this country, now a growing debate

:42:13.:42:18.

about whether we should be even in the European Union at all. There

:42:18.:42:23.

will be a some point a referendum on whether to stay in it or not.

:42:23.:42:28.

Possibly on some sort of revised terms, or not. That debate is not

:42:28.:42:33.

going on in Germany at all is it? No that debate is not going on. But

:42:33.:42:38.

one of the points we press for is that we strengthen democratic

:42:38.:42:43.

rights of the population. So we ask for each state and each population

:42:44.:42:48.

to decide whether they want to stay in the euro and consequently it is

:42:48.:42:51.

the good right of everyone nation to also decide on whether they want

:42:51.:42:55.

to stay in the European Union. So if the British want to have a vote

:42:55.:42:59.

on that that is fine, but I'm pretty sure the Germans do not want

:42:59.:43:03.

to question their membership in the European Union.

:43:03.:43:06.

What was your advice to us? I don't give you advice, that is your

:43:06.:43:15.

business to decide on that. seek a reform of the European Union

:43:15.:43:18.

with what? The cascading down or back down to individual states of

:43:18.:43:25.

powers that are currently centrally held? Less power for the central

:43:26.:43:30.

European institutes? Our main concern is currently the

:43:30.:43:36.

equilibrium, the disequilibrium we see in the eurozone which is due to

:43:36.:43:44.

the fact we have the common currency and there are these

:43:44.:43:47.

misguided attempts to save the common currency. The main issue is

:43:47.:43:51.

how to get out of the mess we stepped in 1999. Do you think

:43:51.:43:59.

Brussels has too much power? I do think that Brussels has created too

:43:59.:44:03.

much bureaucracy. A number of competences should be moved back to

:44:03.:44:11.

the national level. For instance in terms of research

:44:11.:44:17.

money, I don't see why these great funds must be administered on a

:44:17.:44:21.

European level, rather than being handed out by Government its or

:44:21.:44:25.

even universities at a national level, that would confirm to the

:44:25.:44:30.

principle of subsidiarity. Thank you very much. Tomorrow

:44:30.:44:40.
:44:40.:45:11.

morning's front pages now: That's it, sadly we have no time to

:45:11.:45:14.

report the highlight of the first International Conference on Human

:45:14.:45:19.

agent interaction in Japan. Where an academic from New Zealand had

:45:19.:45:22.

analysed 6,000 faces on Lego characters and discovered there

:45:22.:45:27.

seemed to be more unhappy ones than there used to be. We can only bring

:45:27.:45:37.
:45:37.:46:15.

a small sample, along with the best a small sample, along with the best

:46:15.:46:19.

graphs, good night. The wind is picking up, a blustery day across

:46:19.:46:25.

the southern half of the UK. Unseasonably strong gusts. It may

:46:25.:46:28.

cause travel disruption. Further north the winds relatively light

:46:28.:46:31.

across Northern Ireland. A few afternoon showers, but sunny spells

:46:31.:46:36.

here. By and large a fine day for much of Scotland bar one or two

:46:36.:46:42.

showers in the far north. The winds nothing like as strong as further

:46:42.:46:46.

south. Downpours across northern England. Later in the day some big

:46:46.:46:49.

showers further east. The winds picking up throughout the day

:46:49.:46:54.

across the Midlands, East Anglia and the south-east. Gusts of 40-50

:46:54.:46:59.

could cause problems. Here not too many showers, sunshine but very

:46:59.:47:02.

blustery across south-west England and Wales. Some transport problems

:47:02.:47:06.

are possible and some damage to trees. The winds are a touch

:47:06.:47:10.

lighter in North Wales. Here expect some heavy downpours. The winds

:47:10.:47:15.

will ease a touch during Thursday night. They will strengthen once

:47:15.:47:19.

more on Friday as further cloud comes from the Atlantic bringing

:47:19.:47:23.

further outbreaks of rain. Eastern areas will stay dry on Friday,

:47:23.:47:26.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS