Browse content similar to 12/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The question was should I lead it through privatisation, or did the | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
board want to find someone else to do that? The answer was someone | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
else. So the boss of the Royal Bank of Scotland is stepping down. What | :00:21. | :00:30. | |
next for the bank we own? Are we rushing to privatise? We hear the | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
voices of the dead in the Bangladesh factory collapse, the | :00:34. | :00:43. | |
:00:44. | :00:56. | ||
day before the disaster. They spoke After five years of deliberation | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
and millions of pounds spent, the National Health Service still can't | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
decide what to do to improve the care of children having heart | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
surgery. We will hear from both sides of what is now a very heated | :01:08. | :01:17. | |
debate. And never mind Greece and Cyprus, | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
what if Germany ditched the eurozone? This man has started a | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
:01:33. | :01:35. | ||
new political party in Germany to get out of the euro. | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
Thank you and good night. The man hired to restore the standing of | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
Royal Bank of Scotland. The once functioning bank which the taxpayer | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
has the dubious pleasure of owning most of is off. Leaving, stepping | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
down, moving on, pastures new, time for a fresh challenge. All the | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
usual talk was dispensed this evening as Stephen Hester, the | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
chief executive, disclosed he's loaf. The official line is his work | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
is done and the bank wants someone else to take things on from here. | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
But our Economics Editor is here, Paul Mason. What sort of job has he | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
done? In October 2008 and February 2009 the Government had to | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
nationalise RBS to stop the economy collapsing. Its other big obsession | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
at the time was to not own or control a bank. So no real | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
nationalisation but it bought 80- odd per cent of the bank. It paid | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
therefore over the odds of what it could have paid had it just seized | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
the bank at its lowest ebb. And Hester comes in to run it in such a | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
way that eventually it would be sold. The original plan is you are | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
in it as a global, pin-stripe wheeler dealer bank with an | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
investment arm and US arm and eventually everything goes right. | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
The problem was, first of all the economy was worse than they | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
expected and it carried on being worse than they expected. Banking | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
regulation was tougher than I think Labour expected it to be. Tougher | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
than they originally proposed. He has ended up with a bank that | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
instead of growing and reviving as a big bank has had to be broken | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
down and shrunk down and bits of it are being sold off. Was he sacked? | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
He wasn't sacked but he was sort of carrys, paper bag and off you go. I | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
think is the tradition in the city. George Osborne thinks this bank can | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
be privatised before the election. The chairman, Sir Philip Hampton | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
thinks it can be privatised before the election. Hester has had to put | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
in with all political interference, Vince Cable chipping in saying lend | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
to SMEs, and others chipping in saying don't lend. The idea this is | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
a dead-cert that can be sold without losing money, in his | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
statement tonight he gave an interview to my clog earlier, see | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
what you think -- colleague earlier, see what you think, I don't think | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
he's as convinced as others. believe RBS will be privatiseable | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
then, in the sense that it will have cleaned the bank up and | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
predictable and so forth. Share prices, who knows? If the key to | :04:19. | :04:27. | |
privatisation is share price A or B that is harder to predict. The | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
clean-up job, the restructuring of the the normal bank that is mostly | :04:31. | :04:41. | |
:04:41. | :04:43. | ||
delivered already. What are the options? A popular idea, not at the | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
Treasury, is you sell it off, the good parts and the bad parts, the | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
Government sticks with the bad parts, same as Northern Rock. That | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
option is less and less likely if George Osborne apoints somebody who | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
believes like he does that the bank can be sold quickly. The problem, | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
however, while getting rid of somebody who was a bit sceptical | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
and didn't like the interference, the problem is this, to sell a bank | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
you have to have a guy standing there and saying guy this and | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
maximise the profits for the child -- buy this and maximise the | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
profits for the shareholder, us the taxpayer. Once you you have done | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
that you have to represent the new shareholders, those who have bought | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
the shares. It is not so much conflict of interest, but conflict | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
of emphasis might have been better handled if one guy had sold the | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
bank and another guy runs it after sale. The analysts will now have a | :05:35. | :05:43. | |
very good look, if you have chairman/boss, George Osborne, and | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
CEO lining up to say buy this bank it is a great deal for the taxpayer, | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
the analysts will have a good at this, especially when we know who | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
it is. Lord Myners, who was City Minister when Stephen Hester was | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
appointed chief executive at RBS, he's also here. What do you think, | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
was he sacked? I think that the pressure, the Treasury were | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
imposing on the board of RBS made Stephen Hester's position close to | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
impossible. He has made it very clear he didn't really want to go | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
now. He is going because the board has said he should go. I think they | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
are doing the bidding of George Osborne? So George Osborne said | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
time this chap slung his hook? George Osborne has been | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
increasingly at odds with Stephen Hester over the management of the | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
bank. He has been interfering and talking about the need to close | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
down the investment banking side, get out of the American business. | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
Drawing, of course, on his huge experience as a businessman. Just | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
pointing out for the benefit of the audience you are being sarcastic? | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
am. One of the problems in Government when it comes to making | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
decision about -- decisions about business is the lack of | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
understanding. Hester has done extremely good job against a very | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
demanding agenda. He has performed extremely well for the owners of | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
the bank, for the tax-payers, and the taiblt of the banking system. | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
It is possible he has just lost any stomach for the fight? If lost | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
stomach for the fight he wouldn't have given an interview to the | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
Financial Times saying he was up for the fight and looking forward | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
to staying on for the period post- privatisation. At the end of last | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
week I believe Stephen Hester had to idea he was going. Interestingly | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
the press are reporting that Sir Philip Hampton, the chairman of RBS | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
was ringing potentially candidates for the job last week. This was all | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
going on behind Stephen Hester's back. The board of RBS is going to | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
have to answer some serious questions about what role it plays. | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
If it is simply doing what George Osborne tells them it is not | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
performing as a responsible board representing the interests of all | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
shareholders. Why not?Because their job is to make a decision | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
about the management of the bank in the interests. It is the taxpayer? | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
The taxpayer is one very large shareholder. 81%, that is a | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
controlling share? It is a controlling share, but there is | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
also �12 billion worth of equity held by people's pension funds and | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
insurance policies. The board of directors is charged under law with | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
making obtdive decisions, taking into account -- objective decisions, | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
taking into account the express wishes of shareholders, not doing | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
what George Osborne tells them to do. This is an unstable bank. It | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
will lose its chief executive this year, its Finance Director this | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
year, its head of retail banking and investment banking and the head | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
of the American business, there is something deeply wrong in the | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
senior management team of RBS. it worth a buying spree then? | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
knows. We won't answer questions about budgets until you get to | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
general elections. Who knows where the market may be in 12 months time. | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
I think George Osborne has a political eye on a give away of | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
bank shares, possibly to a broad audience, but particularly to his | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
wealthy chums, high tax-payers in the city. Come along, this is | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
really cheap? It is not cheap, we will see what happens. He might | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
make a general offering to the public. He might be like Sid in | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
British Gas? He might give the shares away, it is highly unlikely. | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
He's much more likely to give the shares to those who have the money, | :09:32. | :09:41. | |
not those struggling to make ends meet on very low incomes. This is | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
another policy to encourage a warm feeling among natural supporters | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
ahead of the general election. just trying to recover from the | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
fact that you paid too much money for it? We put sufficient money | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
into the banks to ensure it had adequate capital so depositors were | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
not at risk. That is the key thing we did. We took action to protect | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
the banking system. In hindsight one might have done things | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
differently. At the time we achieved what we set out to do. | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
would have done things differently? The Lloyd's share price is already | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
above the price we paid. In due course RBS share price will be, | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
whether that will happen ahead of the general election, who knows? | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
There is no need for him to give it away then, if the share price is | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
going to go that high? That is one of the big questions that needs to | :10:24. | :10:34. | |
be asked. Clearly UKFI does not believe it is the right to sell the | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
shares because it has not given the Government that advice. What about | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
Stephen Hester's argument that it needs somebody else to take things | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
on, he has done all the awful hard work. He used twice in his | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
statement at RBS, he used the expression of "being in the trench" | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
which suggests it is a horrible environment and all that is over | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
now and it needs someone else? is a valid argument. But if you | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
look at what he said, he said I didn't want to go now it is the | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
board's decision. I think there is some putting together of credible | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
arguments to make what appears to have happened, I think in quite a | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
rush over the last couple of days, look as though it is more rational | :11:13. | :11:20. | |
and carefully thought through. Now at 9.00am on the 24th of April | :11:20. | :11:28. | |
this year an eight storey building in Bangladesh collapsed. Over 100 | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
dead, most of them making clothe -- 1100 dead, most of them making | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
clothes for the west. This wasn't a tragedy without warning, far from | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
it. Workers had been complaining about cracks in the building for | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
weeks. The day before it collapsed there was even a formal safety | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
inspection. Our reporter has been back to learn what happened that | :11:50. | :12:00. | |
day. The entire world watched in horror | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
whilst the Rana Plaza disaster unfolded. What they didn't know was | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
just the day before the police and local authorities had closed down | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
the building, saying it was too dangerous to work there. If the | :12:11. | :12:21. | |
:12:21. | :12:26. | ||
building had remained closed, this tragedy would never have happened. | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
For weeks the workers had been complaining about cracks in the | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
building. Finally on the 23rd of April, less than 24 hours before it | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
collapsed the police, engineers and members of the industry trade | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
organisation came to inspect the building. They immediately | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
evacuated everyone and shut it down. That day journalists Greg | :12:51. | :12:59. | |
Mulholland filmed a report on theically -- filmed a report on the | :12:59. | :13:09. | |
:13:09. | :13:29. | ||
local television. It has never been How do you feel when you see this | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
footage and you had spoken to all these people who didn't want to go | :13:33. | :13:43. | |
:13:43. | :14:12. | ||
into the factory the day before and He got the last interview with a | :14:12. | :14:22. | |
:14:22. | :14:43. | ||
some what agitated Sohel Rana, the Sohel Rana had strong local | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
political connections and he used them. Realising that if the | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
building was closed he would lose a fortune in urgent foreign orders, | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
it is believed that he persuaded someone to unlook the doors. On the | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
next day the 24th of April the factories were open for business. | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
The workers were frightened about going back inside the building, but | :15:02. | :15:12. | |
:15:12. | :15:30. | ||
they were more scared about losing At 9.00am on the 24th of April the | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
electricity stopped. That is nothing uncommon, as usual the | :15:34. | :15:44. | |
:15:44. | :15:44. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds | :15:44. | :16:28. | |
generator kicked in. That's when I reached around two minutes short | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
of 9.20 to the Rana Plaza. The building collapsed like a pancake, | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
you know. Standing at this building site, you get a sense of the scale | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
of this tragedy. Walking on top of people's saris, and tissues and | :16:44. | :16:54. | |
:16:54. | :17:29. | ||
It is impossible to rescue without the help of common volunteers and | :17:29. | :17:37. | |
local people. They came initially with love for their own brothers, | :17:37. | :17:47. | |
:17:47. | :17:47. | ||
sisters, mothers who were inside. One of those was this man nearby, a | :17:47. | :17:57. | |
:17:57. | :17:57. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds | :17:57. | :19:03. | |
slight man, he was able to get into He amputated Anna's right hand with | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
a hacksaw because the attending doctors were too frightened to go | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
into the ruins. He saved 34 lives and amputated in total three limbs. | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
According to him more than 200 people lost their limbs in the Rana | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
Plaza collapse. To get out Reshma Begum had to have both legs | :19:22. | :19:32. | |
:19:32. | :20:07. | ||
Just as the authorities were about to give up hope of finding anyone | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
else alive, on the 17th day after the collapse, someone heard a sound. | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
Trapped deep down inside the building and surrounded by rubble, | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
Reshma Begum was clinged on to life. She had survived on water and a few | :20:22. | :20:32. | |
:20:32. | :20:32. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds | :20:32. | :21:37. | |
She was perhaps hours away from adding to the death toll of 1,230. | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
Families are now being promised over $10,000 for each victim and | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
are being looked after in a modern private hospital. Government | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
engineers claim that 60% of factories are unsafe. Seven | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
building inspectors have now been sacked, including those responsible | :21:54. | :22:02. | |
for Rana Plaza. I checked out a few local buildings to see what was | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
happening. Some factories like this one were closed down days after | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
Rana Plaza. Here at this bench someone was working away, it seems | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
like as soon as it was announced that this building was unsafe to | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
work in, they left immediately and we can see some of their unfinished | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
work and some of the things that were completed. The workers here | :22:24. | :22:32. | |
have no idea when they can come back to work. I'm about to go into | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
a factory that the unions are very concerned about. They are concerned | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
about the working conditions and the safety. On top of that, this | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
yellow sign here says that everyone in this building should be | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
evacuated, because the building has cracks in it and poses a risk to | :22:49. | :22:59. | |
workers and anyone else entering. Imagine my is surprise on | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
discovering over 350 people working there. Their manager wanted to know | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
I was on his shop floor. Why does the sign outside say "do not enter | :23:09. | :23:18. | |
this building it is risky, it has cracks in it"? Who?The yellow sign | :23:18. | :23:28. | |
:23:28. | :23:45. | ||
As I left my heart sank with the feeling that the Rana Plaza tragedy | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
could so easily happen again. Could these people be the next | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
casualties? The insatible appetite in the west for cheap clothing and | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
the vast profits to be made in Bangladesh means we cannot be sure | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
that there won't be more owners turning a blind eye to health and | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
safety conditions. On the international level 38 western | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
companies like Zara and Primark have signed an agreement to improve | :24:12. | :24:19. | |
local safety conditions. However 15 American companies, including Wal- | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
Mart and Gap have refused to join in, they say they are pursuing | :24:23. | :24:32. | |
their own safety checks. That was �6 million well spent. It | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
emerged today that the National Health Service has wasted five | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
years failing to settle the question of whether operation on | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
children's hearts ought to be concentrated in fewer hospitals. It | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
is not so much they are going back to the drawing board as they have | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
discovered they have never left it. This as one part of the publicly | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
funded health service involve another part of the publicly-funded | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
health service in a publicly-funded court. For those campaigning to | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
keep their local units, today brought a welcome reprieve. Some | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
are parents, they are loyal to the cardiac surgeons who helped their | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
children. We are absolutely delighted. Everything that we said | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
was wrong with the review has been proved to be wrong with the review. | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
And the fact that it is all going to be looked at again is just | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
brilliant. But this decision is a big setback for the national | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
reconfiguration, the NHS has to undertake. We are quite concerned | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
that children's lives and their quality of life are very much at | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
risk with the continuing delay. units around the country specialise | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
in children's cardiac surgery. After much debate, and a major | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
consultation, it was decided only seven would be safe and sustainable | :25:48. | :25:54. | |
for the future. The other three, Leeds General Infirmary, Glenfield | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
in Leicester, and Royal Brompton in west London, should stop doing | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
these operations. Campaigners fought hard against the decision, | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
some went to court. Today a report by the Independent Reconfiguration | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
Panel said the original decision process was flawed. They said it | :26:11. | :26:17. | |
had concentrated too much on the surgery alone. As a surgeon clearly | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
I would focus on the surgical element, but we were asked to | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
review the whole pathway of care from beginning to end and whether | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
proposals that had been put forward by safe and sustainable would be | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
sustainable in the long-term and accessible to patients. So the | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
evidence we took and we heard from lots of people who felt that would | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
not be the case. So the difficult decision, which units to close, has | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
been postponed. I therefore accept their recommendation that the | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
proposals cannot go ahead in that current form and I'm suspending the | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
review today. NHS England will also seek to withdraw its appeal against | :26:57. | :27:06. | |
the judicial review successfully achieved by Sabar Surgery in Leeds. | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
Nonetheless the IRP is clear the clinical case for change remains. | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
The Health Secretary said there is consensus that these difficult | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
operations should be done in fewer centres across the country. He | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
didn't set a deadline for that reorganisation. It is up to NHS | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
England to come up with a new way forward by the end of July. They | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
said there should be plans for implementation within the next 12 | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
months. While many families in workshire campaign to keep the | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
specialist unit in Leeds General Infirmary, some support the | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
reorganisation. Michelle Elliot's daughter, Jessica, was born with a | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
heart defect. As she grew up her heart grew weaker. Two years ago | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
she became very ill indeed. She was a patient at Leeds General | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
Infirmary. She couldn't get up the stairs, she wasn't eating, she was | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
grey. I was constantly being told I was a pedantic mum and she's not | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
sick enough yet. Children have to be much sicker than Jessica to get | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
a transplant. So there was a constant refusal to refer her up to | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
a different unit. According to Michelle it took months before | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
Jessica was referred to the Freeman Hospital in Newcastle. She was | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
gravely ill and had a transplant within weeks. Michelle has since | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
met other families who have travelled for treatment. We are 15 | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
families within the group who have all decided their child would have | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
a better outcome from surgery at a larger centre. They have taken | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
their children to the Freeman. If I had to take Jessica to China every | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
week for a superior service I would do. Today the Health Secretary said | :28:45. | :28:55. | |
:28:55. | :29:04. | ||
he had full confidence in the unit. It is nearly 20 years since a | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
surgeon blew a whistle at Bristol royal infermy, revealing many | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
children -- infirmary, revealing that many children were dying | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
before and after heart surgery. It was said that children's heart | :29:18. | :29:25. | |
surgeries should be done in fewer and more specialist centres, where | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
surgeons and nurses had most expert advertise. The longer that is | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
delayed the more the existing service is affected. Already we are | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
beginning to see a crumbling of the service. We are finding because of | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
the uncertainty the current service are reluctant to recruit or replace | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
staff as they leave. They are reluctant to replace equipment and | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
so on. All this delay will do is continue what I would regard as | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
disinvestment. Reconfiguration is one of the great challenges facing | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
the NHS. The example of children's heart surgery shows just how | :30:00. | :30:07. | |
difficult it can be. Sir Ian Kennedy who was mentioned in the | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
piece is here now. Greg Mulholland is the Lib Dem MP for Leeds North. | :30:13. | :30:20. | |
That hospital was one of three due to have its cardiac surgery | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
provision removed, which Mr Mulholland has campaigned | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
vigorously against. It is a dozen years since your report? My feeling | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
today can be captured in the word "despair". Here we are again, it is | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
a sad day for children, it is a sad day for parents. Because Government | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
seems to have found another reason to do nothing. This time the | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
reasons are flawed process, previously there were other reasons. | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
The fact remains we know the answer, there should be fewer centres, but | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
we don't have the decision, so parents and children are left where | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
they have been for a long time. is pathetic, 12 years, isn't it? | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
is a failure of significant order. It is not a proud day for the NHS | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
today. The opportunity was there. We have had report after report | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
after report. Somebody has to make a decision. You can argue about | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
this judgment or that judgment, this is flawed, that is flawed. We | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
have been up and down courts and everywhere else, we have got a | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
strange of options. The Secretary of State is the political person | :31:26. | :31:33. | |
who has to make that decision. are the MP for Leeds North West. | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
You campaigned to keep your local hospital going in this business. | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
Presumably you think this is a victory do you? I do think it is a | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
victory, Jeremy. I don't think it is a victory for Leeds or indeed | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
for the other two hospitals. Today is a victory for accountability in | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
the NHS. You could put it like that or say it is a victory for | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
indecision? What is clear is that today we have had some leadership | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
and we have had accountability. And I can tell you that, and I made | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
this clear to Lord Ribeiro when we had the independent reconfiguration | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
panel, I made clear to them if this is about a local centre and trying | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
to save our own hospital you would take that with a pinch of salt. We | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
are telling you we have seen clear evidence that we had that this | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
process has been flawed and biased and there has been a complete lack | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
of transparency. That is simply not an acceptable way to make a | :32:24. | :32:31. | |
decision. I hard Lord Ribeiro talk about we concentrated too much on | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
the surgery. I'm flabbergasted. We looked at the intensive care, | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
cardiology, the number of nurses, we looked at the Ronald McDonald | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
home for parents. Goodness me. I think I understand Mr Mulholland's | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
position. He's doing what he thinks is in the interests of the local | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
electorate. But I have to say to him. Not true.I have to say to him | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
now this is not about him and it is not only about the constituents of | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
Leeds. Absolutely, it is about the NHS and the fundamental lack of | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
accountability. It is not.I have to say Sir Ian there are people you | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
know in this review who have wasted millions of tax-payers' money by | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
following through a process that has been done, in the words of a | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
High Court judge, as being "fundamentally unfair". If that had | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
not been the case, if this process had been done. This is the problem | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
you won't reach rational decisions and you are shouted at. It was a | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
flawed decision, accept that. say part of my group which | :33:33. | :33:41. | |
consisted of a lot of commissions and nurses. One of them was a | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
mother whole child died during surgery at the Bristol Royal | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
Infirmary, you are telling me that she was in any way involved in | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
anything other than the most poignant pursuit in the interests | :33:53. | :34:00. | |
of everybody. It is not about Leeds, it is not you, can I finish. That | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
is what I said, do not misrepresent my position. Can I finish the | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
sentence. It is about the future of children who either do need or will | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
need this form of surgery. They deserve the best possible surgical | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
care. We know that means that they should go to fewer sent. What we | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
are held up by -- centres. What we are held up by is the altar of | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
misplaced localism for an abdication of decision making. | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
accept there are places that will close. As long as it isn't Leeds. | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
Let's get an answer? That is unfair and offensive. I'm asking you a | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
straight question do you accept there are some places that need to | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
close? I accept the decision has to be made on evidence. Sir Ian's | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
review that he had to take some responsibility. Do you accept some | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
places have to close, you haven't answer that? You look at Scotland | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
or the rest of the continent. is your answer to the question? | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
There may not be a need for the number of closures we talked about. | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
There is only one centre. This is very interesting, this is a world | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
authority here, and you say, you represent, you are not a doctor are | :35:10. | :35:17. | |
you? A High Court judge, and I quote "fundamentally unfair". The | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
Independent Reconfiguration Panel said serious criticisms. Instead of | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
turning it on me, he's the person who came up with the absurd idea to | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
put on his review panel surgeons who are associated, or even at the | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
units that may close. That is nonsense, that is like saying for | :35:33. | :35:40. | |
his review on MPs' pay that we should decide how to do it. It is | :35:40. | :35:50. | |
:35:50. | :35:53. | ||
not true. We have had an independent panel look at this, and | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
they have thrown it out, and it has wasted �6 million. We have had | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
court, Court of Appeal, independent reconfiguration review, my review, | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
Bristol, another review. The review has been flawed. Your review has | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
been flawed. You have been partly responsible for wasting �6 million | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
of tax-payers' money. Don't talk nonsense Mr Mulholland. That is the | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
reality found by the independent reconfiguration panel as well as a | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
High Court judge. The money has been blown, no argument about that. | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
The Secretary of State made a judgment about it. It was | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
inadequate. The money need never have been spent. The answer we know | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
is there must be fewer centres. not according to him. That's just | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
simply nonsense, internationally and nationally it is accepted that | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
children deserve. That isn't true. Mr Mulholland you seem to be | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
capable of embracing a number of propositions that have no evidence. | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
The problem is your review was not based on evidence that is why it is | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
deemed to be fundamentally flawed. Fundamentally flawed by the NHS | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
Independent Reconfiguration Panel. It would be good if you could | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
accept some response responsibility for that. Or tell us the people on | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
the review panel who badly let down those children and tax-payers' | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
money. The triumph of rhetoric over reality. I'm talking about evidence | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
I have seen, evidence in your failed review with your name on. | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
This is so depressing on it, that you are trying to do something for | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
the welfare of children who are currently not receiving optimal | :37:26. | :37:32. | |
care. So are we. Thank you both very much. The | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
eurocrisis is over, don't take my word for it although the crisis | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
gave us a very good living for a while. Take it from the President | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
of France if it has really been settled it is because the | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
generosity of the Germans, where belief in the European Union is | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
taken in with mother milk. However late in the day a party has emerged | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
to say "enough". It not as try dent as UKIP, but it is ready to say the | :37:59. | :38:06. | |
unsayable, like the euro is nuts. When this is the thanks they get | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
for continued bail outs from countries like Greece or Cyprus, it | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
is little wonder the patience of many Germans is just running out. A | :38:14. | :38:23. | |
recent poll by Focus Magazine, showed 26% would consider voting | :38:23. | :38:30. | |
for an anti-euro party. So this man, a former World Bank adviser, is he | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
the man to whom they will return. After 33 years as a member of | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
Angela Merkel's centre right party, he decided he had enough of a | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
coalition he felt now was misguided. In February this year he founded | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
Germany's first anti-euro party. Simply named Alternative for | :38:50. | :38:57. | |
Germany. What do you think has gone wrong | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
with the European project? I think we made one step of integration | :39:02. | :39:09. | |
which was too much. It was the common currency. We now know this | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
was a big, big mistake and a great failure. But it is not as if people | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
weren't warned beforehand. It was pointed out by dozens and dozens of | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
people that the economy of a country like Germany is completely | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
different to some of those other countries in the Mediterranean? | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
That's true, but not many people believe the message of economists. | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
That is perhaps part of our fate. That is quite sensible at times too. | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
Given that there was a warning, and given that the decision, none the | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
less, was made to go ahead with it. It indicates, does it not, an | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
almost religious faith? I wouldn't say that it is religious. You know | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
that Germans are very favourable of European integration and to think | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
that there was some belief that the euro would exert some competitive | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
pressure which led to structural adjustment in say the Mediterranean | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
countries. Your country did very well out of the euro too? | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
really because in the first years of the euro Germany had the lowest | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
growth rate in the eurozone. managed to achieve a great deal in | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
export markets during the creation of the eurozone didn't you? | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
true. The great boom in exports was later between 2001-2005. We | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
actually had trouble living in the eurozone. What is your suggesting | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
solution then? Our solution is we dissolve the euro by first letting | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
the Mediterranean countries exit in a gradual way. Which may well take | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
on four or five years. That later on we split the rest of the | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
euroRhone either in smaller currency areas 0 -- euroareas, | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
either in smaller currency areas or back to their own currencies. | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
Angela Merkel said if the euro fails Europe fails? I'm afraid the | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
euro splits Europe into two parts. Into a stagnant part, southern | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
Europe, which is deeply in recession, with high rates of | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
unemployment and youth unemployment with great deficits on current | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
accounts. With a lack of competitiveness. And then the | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
central European part which is still doing fairly well, but which | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
has these high obligations to pay for the debt of the southern | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
countries. We will have to pay for that with inflation or higher taxes | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
or expenditure cuts. You wouldn't go so far as to advocate leaving | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
the European Union all together would you? Not at all. We want to | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
reform the European Union and one reform step would be to abolish the | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
common currency. It is very interesting, the debate in this | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
country is very different. Of course we are not in the euro? | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
aware of that. We are sometimes quite grateful for it too. We are | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
not in the euro. But there is, in this country, now a growing debate | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
about whether we should be even in the European Union at all. There | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
will be a some point a referendum on whether to stay in it or not. | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
Possibly on some sort of revised terms, or not. That debate is not | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
going on in Germany at all is it? No that debate is not going on. But | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
one of the points we press for is that we strengthen democratic | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
rights of the population. So we ask for each state and each population | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
to decide whether they want to stay in the euro and consequently it is | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
the good right of everyone nation to also decide on whether they want | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
to stay in the European Union. So if the British want to have a vote | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
on that that is fine, but I'm pretty sure the Germans do not want | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
to question their membership in the European Union. | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
What was your advice to us? I don't give you advice, that is your | :43:06. | :43:15. | |
business to decide on that. seek a reform of the European Union | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
with what? The cascading down or back down to individual states of | :43:18. | :43:25. | |
powers that are currently centrally held? Less power for the central | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
European institutes? Our main concern is currently the | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
equilibrium, the disequilibrium we see in the eurozone which is due to | :43:36. | :43:44. | |
the fact we have the common currency and there are these | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
misguided attempts to save the common currency. The main issue is | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
how to get out of the mess we stepped in 1999. Do you think | :43:51. | :43:59. | |
Brussels has too much power? I do think that Brussels has created too | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
much bureaucracy. A number of competences should be moved back to | :44:03. | :44:11. | |
the national level. For instance in terms of research | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
money, I don't see why these great funds must be administered on a | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
European level, rather than being handed out by Government its or | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
even universities at a national level, that would confirm to the | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
principle of subsidiarity. Thank you very much. Tomorrow | :44:30. | :44:40. | |
:44:40. | :45:11. | ||
morning's front pages now: That's it, sadly we have no time to | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
report the highlight of the first International Conference on Human | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
agent interaction in Japan. Where an academic from New Zealand had | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
analysed 6,000 faces on Lego characters and discovered there | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
seemed to be more unhappy ones than there used to be. We can only bring | :45:27. | :45:37. | |
:45:37. | :46:15. | ||
a small sample, along with the best a small sample, along with the best | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
graphs, good night. The wind is picking up, a blustery day across | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
the southern half of the UK. Unseasonably strong gusts. It may | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
cause travel disruption. Further north the winds relatively light | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
across Northern Ireland. A few afternoon showers, but sunny spells | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
here. By and large a fine day for much of Scotland bar one or two | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
showers in the far north. The winds nothing like as strong as further | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
south. Downpours across northern England. Later in the day some big | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
showers further east. The winds picking up throughout the day | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
across the Midlands, East Anglia and the south-east. Gusts of 40-50 | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
could cause problems. Here not too many showers, sunshine but very | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
blustery across south-west England and Wales. Some transport problems | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
are possible and some damage to trees. The winds are a touch | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
lighter in North Wales. Here expect some heavy downpours. The winds | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
will ease a touch during Thursday night. They will strengthen once | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
more on Friday as further cloud comes from the Atlantic bringing | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
further outbreaks of rain. Eastern areas will stay dry on Friday, | :47:23. | :47:26. |