Browse content similar to 25/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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junkie economy? Addicted to low- interest rates and printed money. | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
Where even the prospect of not getting a hit leaves us reeling. | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
Global markets have been sliding ever since the Americans hinted | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
about not printing any money. Is it a drug we can give up? Also tonight | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
the immigration loophole some British citizens are using to get | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
their relatives into Britain by way of another European country. We are | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
doing it because we have no other option. We will cheat if it means | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
we can stay together for the rest of our I have lives. What has | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
happened? Cambridge have stopped. There is a man swimming between the | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
boats. The man has been kicked out of Britain for this, he disrupted | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
the Oxford and Cambridge boat race, and is to be deported for not being | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
conducive to the public good. Trenton Oldfield is here to explain | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
why he shouldn't be set packing. graphic new documentary follows the | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
original Suharto death squads from 60s Indonesia as they delight of | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
re-enacting the destruction of hundreds of alleged communists. We | :01:16. | :01:26. | |
:01:26. | :01:26. | ||
will ask why they revelled in recreating their horrific crimes. | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
Good evening, is it time for an intervention for the good of our | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
nation's health, for a long time now our dear friend the British | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
economy has had a problem, we can't ignore it any longer. It is | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
addicted to cheap money it has been getting from a bloke in | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
Threadneedle Street. In a week that global markets reacted so badly to | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
the idea that the US Government would stop their printing programme, | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
we ask can we go back to the monetary policies of the past, or | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
are we permanently hooked on cheap cash and low interest rates? | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
Suddenly the global markets are turbulent again. There is a credit | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
crunch in China, across the world people are selling off both company | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
shares and Government bonds. Because Europe is still the weakest | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
link in the hole, fragile global recovery and we are exposed to it, | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
there is worry there as well. Last week the boss of the US | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
Central Bank, Ricardo Berna, gave the long-awaited signal that he's | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
about to start withdrawing some of the $2 trillion printed under | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
quantitative easing. Under QE the Fed is currently buying up to 90% | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
of all US bonds issued each month. That has kept the dollar low and | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
the effective interest rate the US pays to borrow at below zero. | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
Quantitative easing works by making it unprofitable to own Government | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
bonds, and pushing capital into more risky markets, shares, | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
property, gold and even the virtual currency, Bitcoin. By signals an | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
end to QE, Bernanke sparked a sell- off in the stock markets. This is | :03:05. | :03:13. | |
what happened. Here is the S & P, the FTSE and the nick kie. All | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
falling markedly since the middle of May. Just as the world gets used | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
to that, there has been a mini- credit crunch in China. For the | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
past five years the Chinese economy has been run on cheap credit, | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
created by the Government. Using soft loans China switched from | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
consumer groups to massive infrastructure projects to help | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
ride out the global downturn. But this year growth has slowed to 7.7%. | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
Instead of simply turning the taps on more, China's Central Bank has | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
tightened credit. This is what has happened to the InterBank lending | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
rate, the SHIBOR, the Chinese version of LIBOR has spiked, making | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
it hard for some companies to borrow, some think this is the sign | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
of something bigger, a Chinese slowdown. What does it all mean | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
here? On Monday Mark Kearney the new boss of the Bank of England | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
takes over. Here we have quantitative easing, but unlike in | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
America we have a long and deep austerity programme under way, and | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
a weak recovery. So not contend with printing money, the Government | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
has asked him to do more, ignoring the threat of inflation and pegging | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
interest rates to zero for years to come. The man he will take over, | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
Lord Mervyn King, seemed to encourage that today. I think | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
people have rather jumped the gun in thinking this means an imminent | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
to normal levels of interest rates, it doesn't. Until markets see in | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
place policies to bring about that return to normal economic | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
conditions there is no prospect for sustainable recovery. Without a | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
prospect for sustainable recovery markets can understand it will not | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
be sensible to return to normal interest rates. In Britain all this | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
market shaking matters, because the fear is we become quantitative | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
easing junkies. This graph shows the effective interest rate the | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
Government borrows at over ten years. As you can see it has been | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
falling, in part because we got the deficit down, in part because we | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
did a lot of quantitative easing, and in part because the world | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
calmed down. Now at the very end it is starting to tick back up again, | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
that is a direct reflection of all the problems in the world I have | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
just described. Lord Mynerss is the Labour peer who | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
had a career in finance before serving as City Minister in Gordon | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
Brown's Government. John Redwood is a Conservative MP and chair of the | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
party's economic affair committee, and George Buckley is the Chief UK | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
Economist at Deutsche Bank. John Redwood, has cheap money been good | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
for the country? I think cheap money was a necessary evil to try | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
to make sure the recession didn't get worse and spiral out of control | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
after the credit crunch in 2007/08. From the savers' point of view it | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
has been very bad news. Your natural constituency? You have to | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
weigh it up, some people gain, those who borrowed a lot of money, | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
some people lost, the savers, who didn't have overall impact on | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
spendable income, one lot won and one lot lost. It was also much | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
easier for the public rather than the private sector. A lot of people | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
are having to pay higher interest rates than half a per cent as we | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
are told in the short-term rate. is almost the default position, are | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
we addicted to it? I think this Government and probably the new | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
Government and the Bank of England will say they will carry on with | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
very low official interest rates for longer. They may find that bond | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
rates, medium-term rates go up a bit because of the world situation, | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
they may find that banks continue to require higher interest rates in | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
the private sector, as they have been doing throughout the last two | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
or three years. I wouldn't adirected, but it is -- addicted, | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
but it is part of the recovery process put in place. Are we | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
addicted? We needed quantitative easing, had we not had the amount | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
that was done we would be in a situation that is a lot worse. The | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
only good thing about this, this is probably one of the reasons I don't | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
think we are addicted, is that had we not done QE, and in terms of | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
people who have taken on loans, we have seen some numbers from the | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
British Bankers' Association, saying we have had a reasonable | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
increase in the number of people taking out mortgage debt. Which the | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
Government has been desperate to have. That is encouraging news, but | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
there haven't been that many people who have taken out debt at the | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
exceptionally low interest rates. That is the only good bit of news | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
we have seen. When you get a hint from Bernake that next year the | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
quantitative easing will be put back, there is such instability in | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
the markets they can't take the news? It tells you how effective | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
quantitative easing has been, it tells you how much interest rates | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
were brought down by quantitative easing. How much is our response | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
conditioned to it now? We needed to have this level of interest rate. | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
Do you think it is a good addiction? I don't think it has | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
been used properly. It bought time, that time has not been used | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
productively. From the beginning you didn't think this would happen | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
down the line? I don't think anybody foresaw that the recession | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
would last this long. We are now talking about a major part of the | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
gilt-edged market being owned by the Government. The Government has | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
issued debt and bought the debt back, it has moved money from the | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
left to the right pocket. We will have to see from the new governor a | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
real change in more unconventional policies. Even cancelling out the | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
two sides of the equation. whole idea, when it was brought in | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
by a Labour Government that eventually this would kick-start | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
growth, where is the growth? We have seen growth in America, we | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
haven't seen it here? We have seen a positive stimulus to the economy, | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
the Bank of England evidence is very strong. We are seeing further | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
evidence of that. But fiscal policy has held the economy back. You | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
can't put all the responsibility for growth on to monetary policy. | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
What do you think about the Lord Mynerss idea that we should be | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
writing off some of the debt now? don't agree with that, or that | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
fiscal policy has been wrong. This Government has increased current | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
spending in the first three years in office, just as Labour did when | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
it was in office. The borrowing is still at a very high level. There | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
is every evidence that there is plenty of fiscal stimulus in the | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
economy. Where is the growth, you say? Where is the growth?There has | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
been some growth, and there has also been a very big contraction of | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
our two big lead sectors of the previous decade, oil and gas has | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
contracted because the reservoirs are getting old, and banking and | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
financial services and business services have been very badly | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
walloped by the credit crunch under the previous Government. When your | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
two lead sectors are badly damaged, you have to run very fast to catch | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
up. You can't do much about the first sector, the oil price is so | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
volatile, but you could have for the second one? The Government | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
could have introduced supply side reform, and increased capital | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
expenditure rather than reduce. was your Government that cut it. | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
One of the problems in Government accounting, this is not a party | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
political point, is we lump capital expenditure together with revenue | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
expenditure. The one thing we should be doing when we have excess | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
comasity in the economy is building roads, -- capacity in the economy, | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
is building roads, schools and new railways, this Government has been | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
very slow to do that. You are an economist for the bank, would | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
capital projects have made a massive difference, they seem to | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
have in America? We can look at the mull pliers, in terms of what an | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
increase -- multipliers, in terms of what an increase on current | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
spending does to the economy and capital spending. When you raise | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
capital spending it does more to raise GDP than current spending. | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
Capital spending is very important. This Government has been shy of big | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
capital spend and projects? I don't think it has at all. The previous | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
Government made extreme low large cuts in future capital programmes. | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
This Government has put a little bit of those cut back and wants to | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
put a lot more and has come up with the National Infrastructure Plan. | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
Those cuts were in the eye of the storm, not part of a long-term | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
policy. Set out for the following five years. They were your long- | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
term policy. They weren't, there wasn't a five-year commitment to | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
fiscal policy in 2010. There was a rolling plan. | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
You would have returned to big capital projects? I don't know HS2 | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
would have been brought forward? have only to look at our motorways | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
and roads to see plenty of holes that need to be filled. This is | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
precisely what John MaynardCaines says we should be doing. You are | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
saying that capital projects have huge spending that some other | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
projects don't? I agree some have that, but there are others which | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
bring huge revenue losses in the future. That is not a good idea. | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
The Government isk looing at what will make the most impact, | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
broadband is a good project that they are encouraging. But if you | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
want a good railway it takes ten years to go through all the perMiGs | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
and requirements. Looking ---- permissions and all requirements. | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
How worried should we be about the latest tremors in China? Interest | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
rates need to be normalised. They need to be nominal GDP plus one or | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
two per cent. At the moment they are less than half that level. | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
they ever get to 5%? It will, that is big issues for people on | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
interest-only mortgages or fixed rate mortgages. In Japan, 20 years? | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
I would hope regardless of the mismanagement of the economy by | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
this Government that we are not set for 20 years of recession. | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
Seriously what do you think? think it is worth bearing in mind | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
that at the moment ten-year interest rates are 2.5%. That is | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
not, even after having risen so much after the last week, it is | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
still not a number that suggests the market is convinced that this | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
recovery is serious. 2.5% is not consistent with a strong recovery. | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
What would convince the market? market would have to raise or see | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
interest rates higher than that to be convinced. The problem is when | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
interest rates go up you start to worry that it could have a negative | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
feedback loop. This is exactly why we are so worried about the speed | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
in the rise of interest rates we have seen. Ben Bernake will think | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
about scaling back QE. We did that, we stopped QE on a single day back | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
in October in 2012, it didn't have this impact on the UK markets. But | :13:22. | :13:29. | |
the US is so much important and has an im We are living in America's | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
world? We, because she does more on a bigger scale and in a bigger | :13:34. | :13:44. | |
:13:44. | :13:47. | ||
economy. Bernake saying to the Chinese that you have lent too much | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
and you have to stop, that caused the crisis, we have to catch if the | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
Chinese back off a bit or precipitate a worse situation in | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
China, that will be bad for the rest of the world. You began the | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
conversation that this is bad for savers in your constituency, when | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
will we return to that? He don't see the official rate going up this | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
parliament, -- I don't see the official rate going up this | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
parliament. The economy will grow from here but not fast enough to | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
justify suddenly jacking up official rates. I think official | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
rates in America will stay longer for longer too. They want to get | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
unemployment substantially down before they increase them they have | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
said. The paradox of Government policy in monetary areas is we are | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
repeating the same mistakes that were made in monetary policy made | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
by the Bank of England in 2006/07. We are stoking up asset bubbles and | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
creating uncertainty and risk in the economy. There will be a need | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
for adjustment, whether it is in the course of the parliament or | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
beyond is a matter for debate. But interest rates will have to go up | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
in due course. We're joined but our political | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
editor, because tomorrow the Chancellor, George Osborne, will | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
announce his Spending Review. Allegra, damp squib, lots of tweets | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
have gone out. Do we know much? very much, it is very unusual that | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
the Treasury doesn't say very much the night before one of these. It | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
makes me think he might be up to something. But actually all | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
suggestions are that he would quite like tomorrow to be boring. Because | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
he has got in trouble in the past with his financial statements. The | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
thing that is relevant to the contributions by the previous | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
guests is that they thought that the deficit would have been coming | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
down, all sorts of things with growth not transpiring, it means | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
that actually George Osborne had to extend it through to 2018. Which is | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
a very long time in the future. Tomorrow what we are getting is the | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
first tranche of how you get on that new trajectory, it is �11.5 | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
billion. It is something, but it is just a dress rehearsal. So we get | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
cuts tomorrow but to get the target of 2018, into the next parliament, | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
we will have another �13 billion in 2016/17, and after that yet more. | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
Tomorrow we learn a little bit about what life will be like in the | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
next parliament. But not a huge amount. I also sense that it will | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
be a terrible phrase, "salami slicing", efficiencies here and | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
backroom savings there. There will be pain, but he wants to stop the | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
fireworks. The thing about these is that Labour has now moved on to | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
broadly supporting them. A lot of the politic has gone out of it. | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
Thank you very much indeed. Well the Government has been trying | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
to reduce immigration from outside the EU, including restrictions on | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
language and earnings and relatives trying to enter the country. But | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
some Britons are finding a way round these obstacles by going and | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
working in Europe, another country in Europe for a number of months, | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
so their cases can be considered under EU law not British law. And | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
so, as BBC Asian Network reporter Katherine Nye explains, it can be | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
easier for Europeans to get their relatives living outside the EU | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
into this country than it is for British people. This woman is from | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
the Czech Republic, married to her husband from Pakistan, and they | :17:12. | :17:21. | |
live in Leeds. Their daughter chats in Czech, Urdu and English. When I | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
met my husband, his original visa had already expired, after we got | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
married in the mosque we applied for his residence as a permanent | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
member of the EU citizens. decided I will not go back to | :17:37. | :17:47. | |
Pakistan any more, I will start my life here. Ahmed told me he's | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
pleased he's married to a European, and he's right to be. If she were | :17:51. | :18:01. | |
:18:01. | :18:01. | ||
British, on today's rules he wouldn't be able to live here. When | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
it comes to bringing in family from oversees Europeans have stronger | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
rights than British citizens. They are not affected by our | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
Government's tightening immigration rules. Put simply, it is easier for | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
a French or Polish man, living in London, to bring in his American or | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
Indian wife than it is for someone British. | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
This is why. Within the EU, and the wider European Economic Area, or | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
EEA, each country tries to control the flow of people coming in | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
through its own immigration rules. But, overriding all of these are | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
the EEA's overarching rights, which include free movement of workers, | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
and crucially, their family. These rights kick in when people move | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
between countries and are economically active. This means | :18:49. | :18:57. | |
that when Czechs move to the UK for work, it allows her non-European | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
partner to live in the UK with her. Each year around 20,000 non- | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
European family members of Europeans, like this man, come to | :19:08. | :19:18. | |
:19:18. | :19:19. | ||
live in the UK. It may seem very unfair, but if a | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
British person wants to gain the same rights they can. They can | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
leave the UK, exercise their treaty rights by working in Europe and | :19:27. | :19:37. | |
:19:37. | :19:39. | ||
then come back, effectively having made themselves European. | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
Chris Hall is doing just that. He's an actor and stunt man from | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
Swindon. He met Sarah, a screenwriter, while working in | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
Chicago. And they married in December. Some of Chris's acting | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
work is freelance, so he doesn't officially meet the �18,600 the | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
Government now says he must earn to have Sarah live with him in the UK. | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
The couple dramatically fled the UK when they realised Sarah's visa | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
wouldn't be extended. So activate his treaty rights they have moved | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
to Paris, and Chris has got a job in a bar. | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
Sarah was told about this route by a friend. I put a thing on Facebook | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
that was like I have to leave the country in 48 hours, come say | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
goodbye to me. Original low I was like I'm going to have to -- | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
original low I was like I will have to fly back to the states, and she | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
was like go to France and somewhere in the EU, and there is something | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
called surrender same, she will explain it when I got there she | :20:48. | :20:57. | |
said. I was like, OK. This method, quitting the UK, | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
exercising your treaty rights and coming back to be treated like a | :21:02. | :21:10. | |
European citizen, it is known as the Saringder Singer route, named | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
after the case that allowed Britons to do that. I talked to her on-line, | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
when we knew all of the details. It was really, really crazy what we | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
did. The couple have been in Paris since | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
February, and will stay another two months while Chris collects proof | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
that he has been exercising his treaty rights. He will take to the | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
border, payslips, utility bills and bank details. It feels like the | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
whole thing is a numbers game, they are always talking about | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
immigration and how they want to get it down and combat it and make | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
sure they are doing the job set to do. I'm a British citizen, if we're | :21:47. | :21:57. | |
:21:57. | :22:01. | ||
in there somewhere you are cracking down on the wrong people. | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
British citizens can do the route in any country within the European | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
Economic Area. But a large proportion are choosing Ireland | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
because it is close by and there is no language barrier when looking | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
for work. Here in Dublin there is a growing community of people | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
exercising their treaty rights in order to get a family into the UK. | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
People like Sunil, an actuary from Reading. She's original low from | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
Australia, she moved to the UK more than ten years ago and is now a | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
British citizens. She's bringing her parents in from Australia, and | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
says she will pay for private healthcare for them. The three of | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
them are living in a temporary flat in in Dublin. | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
Sunil has up a group called Brit Sits to show others how to use the | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
route. Today she is advising a Scottish woman how to bring in her | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
Russian mother. If you have information on how we can proceed | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
with this. More than happy to help. New rules brought in last July make | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
it effectively impossible to bring dependant relatives into the UK | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
from outside Europe. Why do you feel it is your right to | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
have your parents in the UK with you, when obviously the Government | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
is trying to stop so many people bringing in a lot of relatives into | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
the UK? By definition someone can only have two parents, so there is | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
no real room for abuse there. My parents aren't coming here to abuse | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
the system, to claim benefit, but I'm sure if someone just wanted to | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
be benefit scroungers it would be easier to do it in your country of | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
citizenship. By my having to go through this EU route, what they | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
are encouraging people to do is be able to claim benefits. Because if | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
you go down the EU route you are entitled to claim benefits as is | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
your non-EU family. And that's what's absolutely bizarre. We will | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
have people who deliberately go down this route so their non-EU | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
family can claim benefits. While he was in Dublin another two couples | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
arrived in Ireland using this route. They didn't want to speak toe me | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
though, because some people are fearful if the Government knows it | :24:05. | :24:13. | |
will try to stop them. There is a significant number of people | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
exploiting this route at the moment. Over the years we have had calls | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
from migrants, perspective migrants and mostly migrant families wanting | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
to have a bit of advice on how to get other family members over. Now | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
we are getting calls from white British people wanting to get one | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
family member in, their spouse, or perhaps a couple of children. And | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
there is a lot of anger about that. This is an infringement on British | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
people's rights, not just about immigrants. The Government already | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
accept that we can't control immigration from other E United | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
Statess. But we do work on the assumption that we can control | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
movement from outside the EU, the family reunion has had to take its | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
fair share of that. I think the rules that have been introduced, | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
placing some what more restrictions on it are perfectly fair. To have | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
those rules about controlling movement into the country from | :25:10. | :25:19. | |
outside Europe just made fun of by a European regulation is just you | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
know, it should be stopped. In Oxfordshire, Chris has already | :25:27. | :25:34. | |
used this route to get his wife, Melissa, in, she is from New | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
Zealand. They told me how they were received on the border on arrival | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
from the UK. The response of the immigration officer was to suggest | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
we were tricking them some how. see what you have done there, that | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
is really clever. I was so exasperated by that point. They | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
actually said, oh I see, you can just go and work in Spain or | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
something as a waiter for a month and bring whoever you want back | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
into the country with you. I thought well you are making this | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
out, yes, but that is not illegal, that's not, rather it is not | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
illegal, it is a stronger rights intitlement than the current family | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
immigration rules are. It is completely legitimate, it is my | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
right, it is every European's right. But it does mean that the British | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
Government can't make rules that mean anything really? Well I would | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
argue that actually if you are going to make a rule that inhibits | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
people's capacity to have a family, British citizens to have a family, | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
that is unjustified and illegitimate in the first place. | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
The Immigration Minister, Mark Harper denied to be interview, | :26:37. | :26:47. | |
:26:47. | :27:06. | ||
This does some what contradict the UKBA website which says it does not | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
matter if the only reason a British national went to another British | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
state was to exercise an economic treaty right so they could bring | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
their family into the UK. We are doing it because we have no other | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
option, we will go ahead with it, if it is a cheat we will cheat if | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
that means we can stay together for the rest of our lives. | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
Unless the Government can find a way to close this route, for now | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
British citizens will continue to scatter themselves all over Europe | :27:32. | :27:42. | |
:27:42. | :27:44. | ||
and come back with relatives in tow. You can hear that full documentary, | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
Extreme Immigration by visiting the BBC website. | :27:48. | :27:56. | |
The Oxford and Cambridge boat race is as qentseingsly English as the | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
many other things. But not something Trenton Oldfield, an | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
Australian, likes, last year he jumped in to disrupt the start and | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
ended up in the clirpbg for six months. Now he's to be kicked out | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
of the country because he's not conducive to public good. | :28:13. | :28:21. | |
First a reminder of the kerfuffle. Once they get around because they | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
are still in their favour. They have stopped. We have stopped | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
rowing there is a man swimming across between the boats, both | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
crews have had to swap, all the following boats have had to stop. | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
There he is, there is the swimmer, the intruder in the water, just by | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
the blades. I'm joined now by Trenton and his | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
wife. Trenton, first of all, what were you thinking? Kirsly in the | :28:49. | :28:56. | |
three days before I jumped in the river the British Government which | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
as we know is not collected, had passed three. The British | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
Government is not elected? This one wasn't. This one was elected and | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
put together as a coalition? It was put together as a coalition, any | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
way, so in the three days preceding my protest the Queen had had given | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
Royal Assent to the selling of the NHS and the communications and data | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
bill had been introduced into the Houses of Parliament, and on the | :29:22. | :29:31. | |
third day the minister for the Olympics suggested that if your | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
neighbour, if you thought your neighbour was going to protest at | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
the Olympics that you should dob them in. All of that after decades | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
of working on inequality and poverty issues was a real concern | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
to me. But it was a concern to you so you thought, the boat race, | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
because that presumably is a kind of totem of all you dislike about | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
here? It is not so much about disliking here, lived here for 12 | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
years, I have chosen to live here because it is an interesting place, | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
I have committed my entire working life here to work on issues of | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
inequality. But the boat race symbolises a lot of issues. But you | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
misjudged the public mood on the boat race? It seems to have changed | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
a lot since then. I believe similar things. It changes a lot since the | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
year last April? I believe so.You didn't tell your wife you were | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
going to do it? I didn't. Because there is these laws called joint | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
enterprise which are introduced, which convicts people that might | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
know about certain crimes or certain things that will happen. I | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
didn't want that. For the first time you saw it was him on | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
television or did the police phone you or what happened? We work | :30:39. | :30:46. | |
together as well, suddenly I was check ago work e-mail and the | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
indocks was flooded, and I opened one -- inbox was flooded, and I | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
opened one that said it is did I just see something I thought I saw, | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
and I clicked the link and there was Trenton in the Thames. If you | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
think this is an elitist place and pursuing elitist policies, | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
presumably you would be happier in Australia? As a migrant, you will | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
know having worked on these programmes for many years, the role | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
that migrants have contributed to the United Kingdom in terms of | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
social equality. The place we live in East London. You were the | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
benefit of a post graduate place at LSE, you might be one of the elite | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
yourself? I don't understand that argument, other than I have a good | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
understanding of how these institutions work. What you are | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
doing is fighting essentially deportation, and you are going to | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
appeal. Diop your baby was due yesterday, you -- Deepa, your baby | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
was due yesterday, you might face the prospect of being separated. | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
Are you now thinking you will have to make some statement of good | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
behaviour in order to stay, or is it too late for that? We're hoping | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
that the Home Office, because it is so overstretched with resources. | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
Lust forget about you, I don't think so? I think, we are hoping | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
that it may have just been a technical issue. There is a pretty | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
high-profile case, I doubt that will be the case. You will have to | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
appeal, on what grounds will you appeal? We are appealing on a | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
number of grounds, for example there is normally you don't get | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
referred for even consideration of deportation unless you are sentence | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
is over a year. It was a peaceful, non-violent protest. It could have | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
been dangerous, you endangered yourself and might have caused the | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
health serves out to your aid? is not there. Presumably you are in | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
a position now where you are about to give birth, and within six weeks | :32:41. | :32:50. | |
your husband could be out of the country? Yes.What would you say to | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
people in the end about an act that has benefited neither of you? | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
is a question around portionality and scale, Trenton was punished, he | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
served a prison sentence, we are paying off the Crown costs, he was | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
released on a tag. He didn't break any of those condition. He's | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
contributed and worked in this country for over a decade. But he | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
now is a criminal, of course? think the question around the right | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
to protest and the criminal yietsation of protest needs to be | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
discussed. -- criminalisation of protests need to be discussed. The | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
question around migrants and whether migrants have the right to | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
protest around issues that they feel are unjust. In our | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
neighbourhood I think Trenton was trying to say things like minimum | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
wage, minimum working hours, that's all been done through migrants | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
protesting. It is a interested decisional thing. Are you --It is | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
traditional thing. Are you going to have to say you are a reformed | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
character? It is so interesting, when you go to prison nobody could | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
tell me what the point of prison was. Nobody was able to say through | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
this process that I would be reformed or rehabilitated or | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
punished. So I mean...You Are not really rehabilitated again? | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
imagine, it would seem that is the casek because I was allowed out of | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
prison without any issues. But the issue at stake here is whether or | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
not you can protest? And what I'm' dealing with at the moment is I | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
will be concentrating on my family, I have some books to write, they | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
are the key issues. People do have the right to protest and not to be | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
criminalised for that protesting. Are you determined not to go to | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
Australia, you may have to go? Well it would be he very difficult | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
because our life is completely entangled here, we live and work | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
together, everything is involved. We are hoping it was a technical | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
mistake by the Home Office and we are hoping they will clarify that | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
it was an oversight. Thank you very much indeed. | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
Before the end of the programme we have tomorrow's front page, first, | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
it is very rare to see killers boasting about their crimes. And | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
certainly not the perpetrators of mass murder. But in a new | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
documentary feature, The Act Of Killing, which revisits the bloody | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
aftermath of the coup in Indonesian in 1975, the original | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
paramilitaries who executed hundreds of thousands of alleged | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
communists do just that. The film maker, Joshua Oppenheimer, tracked | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
down the leader of the death squads and they readily agreed to re-enact | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
several of their murders, delighting in the most bloodthirsty | :35:25. | :35:33. | |
details. These exerts contain distressing images. | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
After the 1965 coup anybody opposed to the new military dictatorship | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
could be accused of being a communist. This included union | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
members, landless farmers, intellectuals and ethnic Chinese. | :35:46. | :35:56. | |
:35:56. | :35:56. | ||
In America the attack on communism was seen as a major victory. | :35:56. | :36:03. | |
Anwar Congo was the loader of the Pancasila Youth paramilitaries, | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
which still existed today. He enthusiastically demonstrated to | :36:08. | :36:15. | |
the camera what happened after he had beaten his victims to death, | :36:15. | :36:25. | |
:36:25. | :36:45. | ||
because the smell and the mess was The killers dress up in outlandish, | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
garish outfits, making elaborate sets and cajoling Indonesians to | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
take part in violent re-enactments, oblivious to the fact they are | :36:57. | :37:07. | |
:37:07. | :37:34. | ||
incriminating themselves in war It was a very multilayered | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
documentary, including the prp traitors talking to each other -- | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
perpetrators talking about what they did to each other. Joshua | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
Oppenheimer is with me now. You started off filming with survivors | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
and then switched to the perpetrators? Every time we filmed | :37:52. | :38:00. | |
with the survivors the police would and arrest us, and it terrified the | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
survivors. He went back and asked should we make this and is it too | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
sensitive still. And everybody said you must make a film, one that | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
exposes what happened and what has happened to a whole society built | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
by the killers and is based on the celebration of atrocities as | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
something herok. I find it extraordinary, in which the killers | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
move around, act completely with impunity, are still heros in what | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
you expose of being a very corrupt and brutal society, elements of it? | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
I think normally when we hear from perpetrators in film, they either | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
apologise for what they have done or they deny it. That is because by | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
the time we approach them, they have been removed from power. Here | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
the killers have won, they are still in power, they have built a | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
whole society based on celebrating their atrocities, and it gives us | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
this opportunity to ask a fundamentally human question, which | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
is, first of all, how do we human beings do this to each other, but | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
what happens when we build our normality on terror and lies. | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
is a question you were asking, but that was a question that only came | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
later to the killers themselves. And I wonder how they saw you? | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
Because they call you Josh, they trust you, you are behind the | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
camera a lot of the time. And yet they know you are from Denmark. | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
That you are looking in on them. It was as if they were so blinded to | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
the fact that what they did was so appalling, they were happy to tell | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
you that they started to garotte people because it was too bloody | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
and smelly to machete them to death. It was one of the most shocking | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
things I have ever seen I think? The viewers first relationship to | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
the film is mine as well. Which is my gosh these men feel no remorse. | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
The curious thing happens during the film is some how they are | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
boasting about what they have done and celebrating what they have done, | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
and it turns out to be a symptom perhaps of the fact that they knew | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
it was wrong to begin with. They are desperately trying to convince | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
themselves that what they have done was right. And by the end of the | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
film some how they make scene after scene trying to some how run away | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
from the meaning of what they have done, only to find themselves | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
confronted with it. These were the particular death squads you are | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
talking about just now. But all along the way we have this | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
paramilitary group still in power, and is very much entrenched and | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
entwined with the Government. With what you see in the film is | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
tremendous corruption, brutality, attitudes towards women which are | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
appalling, and the every day attitudes of some of the regime. So | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
tell me where is it being shown in Indonesian, and can you ever go | :40:38. | :40:45. | |
back -- Indonesia and can you ever go back? The film in the country | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
has censorship, which they ban the film, so it is a crime to show it. | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
We have held underground to screenings, some of them big, 600 | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
people, as of April there were 500 screenings in 95 cities and it is | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
growing daily across Indonesia. Handing stuff on or is it done on | :41:04. | :41:12. | |
social media? It is giving out DVDs, blue-rays, but also cinemas showing | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
proper cinema seats. But inat this vaigs-only screenings, with 500 | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
people. The film has come like the little child in the Emperor's new | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
clothes and saying the king is naked and everyone was too afraid | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
to say it. And now said so powerfully by the killers | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
themselves, there is no going back. During the course of the film you | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
reshow some of your footage to the killers and they are contemplative | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
sometimes, they quite like it. What about some of the people who come | :41:41. | :41:49. | |
off worse than the killer, what is their response? I assume the | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
political leaders, whom Anwar recruits into the film, I assume | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
they feel betrayed. I hope they do, otherwise I haven't done my job. | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
you still speak to him? I'm still in touch with him, we have been | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
through a very painful and intimate and powerful journey together. But | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
the politicians in Indonesia will make it that I could probably get | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
into Indonesia but I wouldn't get out probably. So in a sense all the | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
efforts you have made to learn the language and everything, your job | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
is done? That is a great sadness for me that the community with whom | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
I made the film they became my family, it was a very dark journey | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
for me and painful journey. They lit this dark road with their | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
laughter and support. In the end did you actually like some of the | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
killers? I think "like" is the wrong word. I think I came to be | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
less and less, even as I retained my judgment of their acts, I became | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
less and less willing to judge another human being as an entire | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
person. I think I feel love for Anwar as a human being, I think | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
"like" is certainly the wrong word. Thank you very much, The Act Of | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
Killing is reduced in cinemas at this country, and Josh will be | :43:08. | :43:18. | |
:43:18. | :43:18. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 57 seconds | :43:18. | :44:15. | |
speaking at events around the That is the end of tonight's | :44:15. | :44:20. |