25/06/2013 Newsnight


25/06/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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junkie economy? Addicted to low- interest rates and printed money.

:00:14.:00:17.

Where even the prospect of not getting a hit leaves us reeling.

:00:17.:00:21.

Global markets have been sliding ever since the Americans hinted

:00:21.:00:27.

about not printing any money. Is it a drug we can give up? Also tonight

:00:27.:00:31.

the immigration loophole some British citizens are using to get

:00:31.:00:34.

their relatives into Britain by way of another European country. We are

:00:34.:00:38.

doing it because we have no other option. We will cheat if it means

:00:38.:00:44.

we can stay together for the rest of our I have lives. What has

:00:44.:00:47.

happened? Cambridge have stopped. There is a man swimming between the

:00:47.:00:51.

boats. The man has been kicked out of Britain for this, he disrupted

:00:51.:00:57.

the Oxford and Cambridge boat race, and is to be deported for not being

:00:57.:01:00.

conducive to the public good. Trenton Oldfield is here to explain

:01:00.:01:06.

why he shouldn't be set packing. graphic new documentary follows the

:01:06.:01:12.

original Suharto death squads from 60s Indonesia as they delight of

:01:12.:01:16.

re-enacting the destruction of hundreds of alleged communists. We

:01:16.:01:26.
:01:26.:01:26.

will ask why they revelled in recreating their horrific crimes.

:01:26.:01:29.

Good evening, is it time for an intervention for the good of our

:01:29.:01:32.

nation's health, for a long time now our dear friend the British

:01:33.:01:36.

economy has had a problem, we can't ignore it any longer. It is

:01:36.:01:41.

addicted to cheap money it has been getting from a bloke in

:01:41.:01:45.

Threadneedle Street. In a week that global markets reacted so badly to

:01:45.:01:51.

the idea that the US Government would stop their printing programme,

:01:51.:01:54.

we ask can we go back to the monetary policies of the past, or

:01:54.:01:59.

are we permanently hooked on cheap cash and low interest rates?

:01:59.:02:02.

Suddenly the global markets are turbulent again. There is a credit

:02:02.:02:06.

crunch in China, across the world people are selling off both company

:02:06.:02:11.

shares and Government bonds. Because Europe is still the weakest

:02:11.:02:15.

link in the hole, fragile global recovery and we are exposed to it,

:02:15.:02:20.

there is worry there as well. Last week the boss of the US

:02:20.:02:24.

Central Bank, Ricardo Berna, gave the long-awaited signal that he's

:02:24.:02:29.

about to start withdrawing some of the $2 trillion printed under

:02:29.:02:34.

quantitative easing. Under QE the Fed is currently buying up to 90%

:02:34.:02:38.

of all US bonds issued each month. That has kept the dollar low and

:02:38.:02:43.

the effective interest rate the US pays to borrow at below zero.

:02:43.:02:49.

Quantitative easing works by making it unprofitable to own Government

:02:49.:02:53.

bonds, and pushing capital into more risky markets, shares,

:02:53.:02:59.

property, gold and even the virtual currency, Bitcoin. By signals an

:02:59.:03:05.

end to QE, Bernanke sparked a sell- off in the stock markets. This is

:03:05.:03:13.

what happened. Here is the S & P, the FTSE and the nick kie. All

:03:14.:03:18.

falling markedly since the middle of May. Just as the world gets used

:03:18.:03:22.

to that, there has been a mini- credit crunch in China. For the

:03:22.:03:25.

past five years the Chinese economy has been run on cheap credit,

:03:25.:03:30.

created by the Government. Using soft loans China switched from

:03:30.:03:33.

consumer groups to massive infrastructure projects to help

:03:33.:03:38.

ride out the global downturn. But this year growth has slowed to 7.7%.

:03:38.:03:43.

Instead of simply turning the taps on more, China's Central Bank has

:03:43.:03:48.

tightened credit. This is what has happened to the InterBank lending

:03:48.:03:54.

rate, the SHIBOR, the Chinese version of LIBOR has spiked, making

:03:54.:03:58.

it hard for some companies to borrow, some think this is the sign

:03:58.:04:01.

of something bigger, a Chinese slowdown. What does it all mean

:04:01.:04:07.

here? On Monday Mark Kearney the new boss of the Bank of England

:04:08.:04:10.

takes over. Here we have quantitative easing, but unlike in

:04:10.:04:13.

America we have a long and deep austerity programme under way, and

:04:14.:04:17.

a weak recovery. So not contend with printing money, the Government

:04:17.:04:23.

has asked him to do more, ignoring the threat of inflation and pegging

:04:23.:04:27.

interest rates to zero for years to come. The man he will take over,

:04:27.:04:30.

Lord Mervyn King, seemed to encourage that today. I think

:04:30.:04:34.

people have rather jumped the gun in thinking this means an imminent

:04:34.:04:38.

to normal levels of interest rates, it doesn't. Until markets see in

:04:38.:04:42.

place policies to bring about that return to normal economic

:04:42.:04:48.

conditions there is no prospect for sustainable recovery. Without a

:04:48.:04:52.

prospect for sustainable recovery markets can understand it will not

:04:52.:04:56.

be sensible to return to normal interest rates. In Britain all this

:04:56.:05:02.

market shaking matters, because the fear is we become quantitative

:05:02.:05:05.

easing junkies. This graph shows the effective interest rate the

:05:05.:05:09.

Government borrows at over ten years. As you can see it has been

:05:09.:05:12.

falling, in part because we got the deficit down, in part because we

:05:12.:05:16.

did a lot of quantitative easing, and in part because the world

:05:16.:05:20.

calmed down. Now at the very end it is starting to tick back up again,

:05:20.:05:23.

that is a direct reflection of all the problems in the world I have

:05:23.:05:28.

just described. Lord Mynerss is the Labour peer who

:05:28.:05:31.

had a career in finance before serving as City Minister in Gordon

:05:31.:05:35.

Brown's Government. John Redwood is a Conservative MP and chair of the

:05:35.:05:40.

party's economic affair committee, and George Buckley is the Chief UK

:05:40.:05:43.

Economist at Deutsche Bank. John Redwood, has cheap money been good

:05:43.:05:47.

for the country? I think cheap money was a necessary evil to try

:05:47.:05:52.

to make sure the recession didn't get worse and spiral out of control

:05:52.:05:57.

after the credit crunch in 2007/08. From the savers' point of view it

:05:57.:06:00.

has been very bad news. Your natural constituency? You have to

:06:00.:06:04.

weigh it up, some people gain, those who borrowed a lot of money,

:06:04.:06:08.

some people lost, the savers, who didn't have overall impact on

:06:08.:06:13.

spendable income, one lot won and one lot lost. It was also much

:06:13.:06:16.

easier for the public rather than the private sector. A lot of people

:06:16.:06:19.

are having to pay higher interest rates than half a per cent as we

:06:19.:06:23.

are told in the short-term rate. is almost the default position, are

:06:23.:06:27.

we addicted to it? I think this Government and probably the new

:06:27.:06:30.

Government and the Bank of England will say they will carry on with

:06:30.:06:33.

very low official interest rates for longer. They may find that bond

:06:33.:06:37.

rates, medium-term rates go up a bit because of the world situation,

:06:37.:06:40.

they may find that banks continue to require higher interest rates in

:06:40.:06:44.

the private sector, as they have been doing throughout the last two

:06:44.:06:49.

or three years. I wouldn't adirected, but it is -- addicted,

:06:49.:06:53.

but it is part of the recovery process put in place. Are we

:06:53.:06:56.

addicted? We needed quantitative easing, had we not had the amount

:06:56.:06:59.

that was done we would be in a situation that is a lot worse. The

:06:59.:07:02.

only good thing about this, this is probably one of the reasons I don't

:07:02.:07:07.

think we are addicted, is that had we not done QE, and in terms of

:07:07.:07:11.

people who have taken on loans, we have seen some numbers from the

:07:12.:07:14.

British Bankers' Association, saying we have had a reasonable

:07:14.:07:17.

increase in the number of people taking out mortgage debt. Which the

:07:17.:07:21.

Government has been desperate to have. That is encouraging news, but

:07:21.:07:25.

there haven't been that many people who have taken out debt at the

:07:25.:07:27.

exceptionally low interest rates. That is the only good bit of news

:07:27.:07:34.

we have seen. When you get a hint from Bernake that next year the

:07:34.:07:38.

quantitative easing will be put back, there is such instability in

:07:38.:07:43.

the markets they can't take the news? It tells you how effective

:07:43.:07:46.

quantitative easing has been, it tells you how much interest rates

:07:46.:07:48.

were brought down by quantitative easing. How much is our response

:07:48.:07:52.

conditioned to it now? We needed to have this level of interest rate.

:07:52.:07:56.

Do you think it is a good addiction? I don't think it has

:07:56.:08:01.

been used properly. It bought time, that time has not been used

:08:01.:08:03.

productively. From the beginning you didn't think this would happen

:08:03.:08:06.

down the line? I don't think anybody foresaw that the recession

:08:06.:08:11.

would last this long. We are now talking about a major part of the

:08:11.:08:15.

gilt-edged market being owned by the Government. The Government has

:08:15.:08:19.

issued debt and bought the debt back, it has moved money from the

:08:19.:08:24.

left to the right pocket. We will have to see from the new governor a

:08:24.:08:27.

real change in more unconventional policies. Even cancelling out the

:08:27.:08:31.

two sides of the equation. whole idea, when it was brought in

:08:31.:08:34.

by a Labour Government that eventually this would kick-start

:08:34.:08:38.

growth, where is the growth? We have seen growth in America, we

:08:38.:08:43.

haven't seen it here? We have seen a positive stimulus to the economy,

:08:43.:08:46.

the Bank of England evidence is very strong. We are seeing further

:08:46.:08:49.

evidence of that. But fiscal policy has held the economy back. You

:08:49.:08:53.

can't put all the responsibility for growth on to monetary policy.

:08:53.:08:58.

What do you think about the Lord Mynerss idea that we should be

:08:58.:09:03.

writing off some of the debt now? don't agree with that, or that

:09:03.:09:06.

fiscal policy has been wrong. This Government has increased current

:09:06.:09:09.

spending in the first three years in office, just as Labour did when

:09:09.:09:13.

it was in office. The borrowing is still at a very high level. There

:09:13.:09:16.

is every evidence that there is plenty of fiscal stimulus in the

:09:16.:09:20.

economy. Where is the growth, you say? Where is the growth?There has

:09:20.:09:25.

been some growth, and there has also been a very big contraction of

:09:25.:09:28.

our two big lead sectors of the previous decade, oil and gas has

:09:28.:09:31.

contracted because the reservoirs are getting old, and banking and

:09:31.:09:35.

financial services and business services have been very badly

:09:35.:09:38.

walloped by the credit crunch under the previous Government. When your

:09:38.:09:41.

two lead sectors are badly damaged, you have to run very fast to catch

:09:41.:09:46.

up. You can't do much about the first sector, the oil price is so

:09:46.:09:49.

volatile, but you could have for the second one? The Government

:09:49.:09:53.

could have introduced supply side reform, and increased capital

:09:53.:09:55.

expenditure rather than reduce. was your Government that cut it.

:09:55.:09:59.

One of the problems in Government accounting, this is not a party

:09:59.:10:02.

political point, is we lump capital expenditure together with revenue

:10:02.:10:05.

expenditure. The one thing we should be doing when we have excess

:10:05.:10:08.

comasity in the economy is building roads, -- capacity in the economy,

:10:08.:10:12.

is building roads, schools and new railways, this Government has been

:10:12.:10:16.

very slow to do that. You are an economist for the bank, would

:10:16.:10:19.

capital projects have made a massive difference, they seem to

:10:19.:10:24.

have in America? We can look at the mull pliers, in terms of what an

:10:24.:10:29.

increase -- multipliers, in terms of what an increase on current

:10:29.:10:32.

spending does to the economy and capital spending. When you raise

:10:32.:10:36.

capital spending it does more to raise GDP than current spending.

:10:36.:10:40.

Capital spending is very important. This Government has been shy of big

:10:40.:10:43.

capital spend and projects? I don't think it has at all. The previous

:10:43.:10:47.

Government made extreme low large cuts in future capital programmes.

:10:47.:10:50.

This Government has put a little bit of those cut back and wants to

:10:50.:10:55.

put a lot more and has come up with the National Infrastructure Plan.

:10:55.:10:59.

Those cuts were in the eye of the storm, not part of a long-term

:10:59.:11:04.

policy. Set out for the following five years. They were your long-

:11:04.:11:08.

term policy. They weren't, there wasn't a five-year commitment to

:11:08.:11:12.

fiscal policy in 2010. There was a rolling plan.

:11:12.:11:16.

You would have returned to big capital projects? I don't know HS2

:11:16.:11:21.

would have been brought forward? have only to look at our motorways

:11:21.:11:26.

and roads to see plenty of holes that need to be filled. This is

:11:26.:11:33.

precisely what John MaynardCaines says we should be doing. You are

:11:33.:11:38.

saying that capital projects have huge spending that some other

:11:38.:11:43.

projects don't? I agree some have that, but there are others which

:11:43.:11:46.

bring huge revenue losses in the future. That is not a good idea.

:11:46.:11:50.

The Government isk looing at what will make the most impact,

:11:50.:11:53.

broadband is a good project that they are encouraging. But if you

:11:53.:11:58.

want a good railway it takes ten years to go through all the perMiGs

:11:58.:12:05.

and requirements. Looking ---- permissions and all requirements.

:12:05.:12:09.

How worried should we be about the latest tremors in China? Interest

:12:09.:12:13.

rates need to be normalised. They need to be nominal GDP plus one or

:12:13.:12:19.

two per cent. At the moment they are less than half that level.

:12:19.:12:24.

they ever get to 5%? It will, that is big issues for people on

:12:24.:12:28.

interest-only mortgages or fixed rate mortgages. In Japan, 20 years?

:12:28.:12:31.

I would hope regardless of the mismanagement of the economy by

:12:31.:12:35.

this Government that we are not set for 20 years of recession.

:12:35.:12:38.

Seriously what do you think? think it is worth bearing in mind

:12:38.:12:42.

that at the moment ten-year interest rates are 2.5%. That is

:12:42.:12:45.

not, even after having risen so much after the last week, it is

:12:45.:12:48.

still not a number that suggests the market is convinced that this

:12:48.:12:53.

recovery is serious. 2.5% is not consistent with a strong recovery.

:12:53.:12:57.

What would convince the market? market would have to raise or see

:12:57.:13:00.

interest rates higher than that to be convinced. The problem is when

:13:00.:13:04.

interest rates go up you start to worry that it could have a negative

:13:04.:13:07.

feedback loop. This is exactly why we are so worried about the speed

:13:07.:13:12.

in the rise of interest rates we have seen. Ben Bernake will think

:13:12.:13:17.

about scaling back QE. We did that, we stopped QE on a single day back

:13:17.:13:22.

in October in 2012, it didn't have this impact on the UK markets. But

:13:22.:13:29.

the US is so much important and has an im We are living in America's

:13:29.:13:34.

world? We, because she does more on a bigger scale and in a bigger

:13:34.:13:44.
:13:44.:13:47.

economy. Bernake saying to the Chinese that you have lent too much

:13:47.:13:52.

and you have to stop, that caused the crisis, we have to catch if the

:13:52.:13:57.

Chinese back off a bit or precipitate a worse situation in

:13:57.:14:00.

China, that will be bad for the rest of the world. You began the

:14:00.:14:06.

conversation that this is bad for savers in your constituency, when

:14:06.:14:10.

will we return to that? He don't see the official rate going up this

:14:10.:14:13.

parliament, -- I don't see the official rate going up this

:14:13.:14:17.

parliament. The economy will grow from here but not fast enough to

:14:17.:14:20.

justify suddenly jacking up official rates. I think official

:14:20.:14:24.

rates in America will stay longer for longer too. They want to get

:14:24.:14:27.

unemployment substantially down before they increase them they have

:14:27.:14:31.

said. The paradox of Government policy in monetary areas is we are

:14:31.:14:37.

repeating the same mistakes that were made in monetary policy made

:14:37.:14:43.

by the Bank of England in 2006/07. We are stoking up asset bubbles and

:14:43.:14:46.

creating uncertainty and risk in the economy. There will be a need

:14:46.:14:49.

for adjustment, whether it is in the course of the parliament or

:14:49.:14:53.

beyond is a matter for debate. But interest rates will have to go up

:14:53.:14:57.

in due course. We're joined but our political

:14:57.:15:00.

editor, because tomorrow the Chancellor, George Osborne, will

:15:00.:15:03.

announce his Spending Review. Allegra, damp squib, lots of tweets

:15:03.:15:07.

have gone out. Do we know much? very much, it is very unusual that

:15:07.:15:10.

the Treasury doesn't say very much the night before one of these. It

:15:10.:15:13.

makes me think he might be up to something. But actually all

:15:13.:15:17.

suggestions are that he would quite like tomorrow to be boring. Because

:15:17.:15:22.

he has got in trouble in the past with his financial statements. The

:15:22.:15:24.

thing that is relevant to the contributions by the previous

:15:24.:15:27.

guests is that they thought that the deficit would have been coming

:15:27.:15:31.

down, all sorts of things with growth not transpiring, it means

:15:31.:15:34.

that actually George Osborne had to extend it through to 2018. Which is

:15:34.:15:37.

a very long time in the future. Tomorrow what we are getting is the

:15:37.:15:43.

first tranche of how you get on that new trajectory, it is �11.5

:15:43.:15:49.

billion. It is something, but it is just a dress rehearsal. So we get

:15:49.:15:53.

cuts tomorrow but to get the target of 2018, into the next parliament,

:15:53.:15:59.

we will have another �13 billion in 2016/17, and after that yet more.

:15:59.:16:02.

Tomorrow we learn a little bit about what life will be like in the

:16:02.:16:08.

next parliament. But not a huge amount. I also sense that it will

:16:08.:16:15.

be a terrible phrase, "salami slicing", efficiencies here and

:16:15.:16:19.

backroom savings there. There will be pain, but he wants to stop the

:16:19.:16:23.

fireworks. The thing about these is that Labour has now moved on to

:16:24.:16:27.

broadly supporting them. A lot of the politic has gone out of it.

:16:27.:16:31.

Thank you very much indeed. Well the Government has been trying

:16:31.:16:35.

to reduce immigration from outside the EU, including restrictions on

:16:35.:16:38.

language and earnings and relatives trying to enter the country. But

:16:38.:16:42.

some Britons are finding a way round these obstacles by going and

:16:42.:16:46.

working in Europe, another country in Europe for a number of months,

:16:46.:16:50.

so their cases can be considered under EU law not British law. And

:16:50.:16:57.

so, as BBC Asian Network reporter Katherine Nye explains, it can be

:16:57.:17:00.

easier for Europeans to get their relatives living outside the EU

:17:00.:17:09.

into this country than it is for British people. This woman is from

:17:10.:17:12.

the Czech Republic, married to her husband from Pakistan, and they

:17:12.:17:21.

live in Leeds. Their daughter chats in Czech, Urdu and English. When I

:17:21.:17:25.

met my husband, his original visa had already expired, after we got

:17:25.:17:32.

married in the mosque we applied for his residence as a permanent

:17:32.:17:37.

member of the EU citizens. decided I will not go back to

:17:37.:17:47.

Pakistan any more, I will start my life here. Ahmed told me he's

:17:47.:17:51.

pleased he's married to a European, and he's right to be. If she were

:17:51.:18:01.
:18:01.:18:01.

British, on today's rules he wouldn't be able to live here. When

:18:02.:18:06.

it comes to bringing in family from oversees Europeans have stronger

:18:06.:18:11.

rights than British citizens. They are not affected by our

:18:11.:18:14.

Government's tightening immigration rules. Put simply, it is easier for

:18:14.:18:19.

a French or Polish man, living in London, to bring in his American or

:18:19.:18:21.

Indian wife than it is for someone British.

:18:22.:18:27.

This is why. Within the EU, and the wider European Economic Area, or

:18:27.:18:31.

EEA, each country tries to control the flow of people coming in

:18:31.:18:36.

through its own immigration rules. But, overriding all of these are

:18:36.:18:41.

the EEA's overarching rights, which include free movement of workers,

:18:41.:18:46.

and crucially, their family. These rights kick in when people move

:18:46.:18:49.

between countries and are economically active. This means

:18:49.:18:57.

that when Czechs move to the UK for work, it allows her non-European

:18:57.:19:04.

partner to live in the UK with her. Each year around 20,000 non-

:19:04.:19:08.

European family members of Europeans, like this man, come to

:19:08.:19:18.
:19:18.:19:19.

live in the UK. It may seem very unfair, but if a

:19:19.:19:23.

British person wants to gain the same rights they can. They can

:19:23.:19:27.

leave the UK, exercise their treaty rights by working in Europe and

:19:27.:19:37.
:19:37.:19:39.

then come back, effectively having made themselves European.

:19:39.:19:45.

Chris Hall is doing just that. He's an actor and stunt man from

:19:45.:19:51.

Swindon. He met Sarah, a screenwriter, while working in

:19:51.:19:56.

Chicago. And they married in December. Some of Chris's acting

:19:56.:20:01.

work is freelance, so he doesn't officially meet the �18,600 the

:20:01.:20:07.

Government now says he must earn to have Sarah live with him in the UK.

:20:07.:20:11.

The couple dramatically fled the UK when they realised Sarah's visa

:20:11.:20:15.

wouldn't be extended. So activate his treaty rights they have moved

:20:15.:20:20.

to Paris, and Chris has got a job in a bar.

:20:20.:20:25.

Sarah was told about this route by a friend. I put a thing on Facebook

:20:25.:20:29.

that was like I have to leave the country in 48 hours, come say

:20:30.:20:35.

goodbye to me. Original low I was like I'm going to have to --

:20:35.:20:39.

original low I was like I will have to fly back to the states, and she

:20:39.:20:45.

was like go to France and somewhere in the EU, and there is something

:20:45.:20:48.

called surrender same, she will explain it when I got there she

:20:48.:20:57.

said. I was like, OK. This method, quitting the UK,

:20:57.:21:02.

exercising your treaty rights and coming back to be treated like a

:21:02.:21:10.

European citizen, it is known as the Saringder Singer route, named

:21:10.:21:15.

after the case that allowed Britons to do that. I talked to her on-line,

:21:15.:21:19.

when we knew all of the details. It was really, really crazy what we

:21:19.:21:23.

did. The couple have been in Paris since

:21:23.:21:27.

February, and will stay another two months while Chris collects proof

:21:27.:21:32.

that he has been exercising his treaty rights. He will take to the

:21:32.:21:36.

border, payslips, utility bills and bank details. It feels like the

:21:36.:21:39.

whole thing is a numbers game, they are always talking about

:21:39.:21:42.

immigration and how they want to get it down and combat it and make

:21:43.:21:47.

sure they are doing the job set to do. I'm a British citizen, if we're

:21:47.:21:57.
:21:57.:22:01.

in there somewhere you are cracking down on the wrong people.

:22:01.:22:05.

British citizens can do the route in any country within the European

:22:05.:22:08.

Economic Area. But a large proportion are choosing Ireland

:22:08.:22:11.

because it is close by and there is no language barrier when looking

:22:12.:22:16.

for work. Here in Dublin there is a growing community of people

:22:16.:22:22.

exercising their treaty rights in order to get a family into the UK.

:22:23.:22:28.

People like Sunil, an actuary from Reading. She's original low from

:22:28.:22:32.

Australia, she moved to the UK more than ten years ago and is now a

:22:32.:22:36.

British citizens. She's bringing her parents in from Australia, and

:22:36.:22:39.

says she will pay for private healthcare for them. The three of

:22:39.:22:45.

them are living in a temporary flat in in Dublin.

:22:45.:22:50.

Sunil has up a group called Brit Sits to show others how to use the

:22:50.:22:55.

route. Today she is advising a Scottish woman how to bring in her

:22:55.:22:58.

Russian mother. If you have information on how we can proceed

:22:58.:23:03.

with this. More than happy to help. New rules brought in last July make

:23:03.:23:07.

it effectively impossible to bring dependant relatives into the UK

:23:07.:23:11.

from outside Europe. Why do you feel it is your right to

:23:11.:23:13.

have your parents in the UK with you, when obviously the Government

:23:13.:23:18.

is trying to stop so many people bringing in a lot of relatives into

:23:18.:23:22.

the UK? By definition someone can only have two parents, so there is

:23:22.:23:26.

no real room for abuse there. My parents aren't coming here to abuse

:23:26.:23:30.

the system, to claim benefit, but I'm sure if someone just wanted to

:23:30.:23:34.

be benefit scroungers it would be easier to do it in your country of

:23:34.:23:38.

citizenship. By my having to go through this EU route, what they

:23:38.:23:42.

are encouraging people to do is be able to claim benefits. Because if

:23:42.:23:47.

you go down the EU route you are entitled to claim benefits as is

:23:47.:23:51.

your non-EU family. And that's what's absolutely bizarre. We will

:23:51.:23:55.

have people who deliberately go down this route so their non-EU

:23:55.:23:59.

family can claim benefits. While he was in Dublin another two couples

:23:59.:24:03.

arrived in Ireland using this route. They didn't want to speak toe me

:24:03.:24:05.

though, because some people are fearful if the Government knows it

:24:05.:24:13.

will try to stop them. There is a significant number of people

:24:13.:24:17.

exploiting this route at the moment. Over the years we have had calls

:24:17.:24:21.

from migrants, perspective migrants and mostly migrant families wanting

:24:21.:24:27.

to have a bit of advice on how to get other family members over. Now

:24:27.:24:30.

we are getting calls from white British people wanting to get one

:24:30.:24:33.

family member in, their spouse, or perhaps a couple of children. And

:24:34.:24:37.

there is a lot of anger about that. This is an infringement on British

:24:37.:24:42.

people's rights, not just about immigrants. The Government already

:24:42.:24:46.

accept that we can't control immigration from other E United

:24:46.:24:53.

Statess. But we do work on the assumption that we can control

:24:53.:24:57.

movement from outside the EU, the family reunion has had to take its

:24:57.:25:01.

fair share of that. I think the rules that have been introduced,

:25:01.:25:05.

placing some what more restrictions on it are perfectly fair. To have

:25:05.:25:10.

those rules about controlling movement into the country from

:25:10.:25:19.

outside Europe just made fun of by a European regulation is just you

:25:19.:25:27.

know, it should be stopped. In Oxfordshire, Chris has already

:25:27.:25:34.

used this route to get his wife, Melissa, in, she is from New

:25:34.:25:38.

Zealand. They told me how they were received on the border on arrival

:25:38.:25:41.

from the UK. The response of the immigration officer was to suggest

:25:41.:25:45.

we were tricking them some how. see what you have done there, that

:25:45.:25:50.

is really clever. I was so exasperated by that point. They

:25:50.:25:54.

actually said, oh I see, you can just go and work in Spain or

:25:54.:25:57.

something as a waiter for a month and bring whoever you want back

:25:57.:26:00.

into the country with you. I thought well you are making this

:26:00.:26:06.

out, yes, but that is not illegal, that's not, rather it is not

:26:06.:26:11.

illegal, it is a stronger rights intitlement than the current family

:26:11.:26:14.

immigration rules are. It is completely legitimate, it is my

:26:14.:26:18.

right, it is every European's right. But it does mean that the British

:26:18.:26:22.

Government can't make rules that mean anything really? Well I would

:26:22.:26:26.

argue that actually if you are going to make a rule that inhibits

:26:26.:26:30.

people's capacity to have a family, British citizens to have a family,

:26:30.:26:35.

that is unjustified and illegitimate in the first place.

:26:35.:26:37.

The Immigration Minister, Mark Harper denied to be interview,

:26:37.:26:47.
:26:47.:27:06.

This does some what contradict the UKBA website which says it does not

:27:06.:27:10.

matter if the only reason a British national went to another British

:27:10.:27:14.

state was to exercise an economic treaty right so they could bring

:27:14.:27:17.

their family into the UK. We are doing it because we have no other

:27:17.:27:20.

option, we will go ahead with it, if it is a cheat we will cheat if

:27:20.:27:24.

that means we can stay together for the rest of our lives.

:27:24.:27:28.

Unless the Government can find a way to close this route, for now

:27:28.:27:32.

British citizens will continue to scatter themselves all over Europe

:27:32.:27:42.
:27:42.:27:44.

and come back with relatives in tow. You can hear that full documentary,

:27:44.:27:48.

Extreme Immigration by visiting the BBC website.

:27:48.:27:56.

The Oxford and Cambridge boat race is as qentseingsly English as the

:27:56.:28:00.

many other things. But not something Trenton Oldfield, an

:28:00.:28:05.

Australian, likes, last year he jumped in to disrupt the start and

:28:05.:28:09.

ended up in the clirpbg for six months. Now he's to be kicked out

:28:09.:28:13.

of the country because he's not conducive to public good.

:28:13.:28:21.

First a reminder of the kerfuffle. Once they get around because they

:28:21.:28:24.

are still in their favour. They have stopped. We have stopped

:28:24.:28:27.

rowing there is a man swimming across between the boats, both

:28:27.:28:32.

crews have had to swap, all the following boats have had to stop.

:28:32.:28:37.

There he is, there is the swimmer, the intruder in the water, just by

:28:37.:28:44.

the blades. I'm joined now by Trenton and his

:28:44.:28:49.

wife. Trenton, first of all, what were you thinking? Kirsly in the

:28:49.:28:56.

three days before I jumped in the river the British Government which

:28:56.:29:00.

as we know is not collected, had passed three. The British

:29:00.:29:04.

Government is not elected? This one wasn't. This one was elected and

:29:04.:29:07.

put together as a coalition? It was put together as a coalition, any

:29:07.:29:12.

way, so in the three days preceding my protest the Queen had had given

:29:13.:29:19.

Royal Assent to the selling of the NHS and the communications and data

:29:19.:29:22.

bill had been introduced into the Houses of Parliament, and on the

:29:22.:29:31.

third day the minister for the Olympics suggested that if your

:29:31.:29:34.

neighbour, if you thought your neighbour was going to protest at

:29:34.:29:39.

the Olympics that you should dob them in. All of that after decades

:29:39.:29:43.

of working on inequality and poverty issues was a real concern

:29:43.:29:47.

to me. But it was a concern to you so you thought, the boat race,

:29:48.:29:53.

because that presumably is a kind of totem of all you dislike about

:29:53.:29:56.

here? It is not so much about disliking here, lived here for 12

:29:56.:30:01.

years, I have chosen to live here because it is an interesting place,

:30:01.:30:05.

I have committed my entire working life here to work on issues of

:30:05.:30:10.

inequality. But the boat race symbolises a lot of issues. But you

:30:10.:30:13.

misjudged the public mood on the boat race? It seems to have changed

:30:13.:30:17.

a lot since then. I believe similar things. It changes a lot since the

:30:17.:30:21.

year last April? I believe so.You didn't tell your wife you were

:30:21.:30:26.

going to do it? I didn't. Because there is these laws called joint

:30:26.:30:29.

enterprise which are introduced, which convicts people that might

:30:29.:30:31.

know about certain crimes or certain things that will happen. I

:30:31.:30:36.

didn't want that. For the first time you saw it was him on

:30:36.:30:39.

television or did the police phone you or what happened? We work

:30:39.:30:46.

together as well, suddenly I was check ago work e-mail and the

:30:46.:30:50.

indocks was flooded, and I opened one -- inbox was flooded, and I

:30:50.:30:55.

opened one that said it is did I just see something I thought I saw,

:30:55.:30:59.

and I clicked the link and there was Trenton in the Thames. If you

:30:59.:31:05.

think this is an elitist place and pursuing elitist policies,

:31:05.:31:08.

presumably you would be happier in Australia? As a migrant, you will

:31:08.:31:12.

know having worked on these programmes for many years, the role

:31:12.:31:17.

that migrants have contributed to the United Kingdom in terms of

:31:17.:31:21.

social equality. The place we live in East London. You were the

:31:21.:31:27.

benefit of a post graduate place at LSE, you might be one of the elite

:31:27.:31:29.

yourself? I don't understand that argument, other than I have a good

:31:30.:31:33.

understanding of how these institutions work. What you are

:31:33.:31:38.

doing is fighting essentially deportation, and you are going to

:31:38.:31:43.

appeal. Diop your baby was due yesterday, you -- Deepa, your baby

:31:44.:31:48.

was due yesterday, you might face the prospect of being separated.

:31:48.:31:51.

Are you now thinking you will have to make some statement of good

:31:51.:31:57.

behaviour in order to stay, or is it too late for that? We're hoping

:31:57.:32:01.

that the Home Office, because it is so overstretched with resources.

:32:01.:32:04.

Lust forget about you, I don't think so? I think, we are hoping

:32:04.:32:09.

that it may have just been a technical issue. There is a pretty

:32:09.:32:12.

high-profile case, I doubt that will be the case. You will have to

:32:12.:32:16.

appeal, on what grounds will you appeal? We are appealing on a

:32:16.:32:19.

number of grounds, for example there is normally you don't get

:32:19.:32:23.

referred for even consideration of deportation unless you are sentence

:32:23.:32:29.

is over a year. It was a peaceful, non-violent protest. It could have

:32:29.:32:32.

been dangerous, you endangered yourself and might have caused the

:32:32.:32:37.

health serves out to your aid? is not there. Presumably you are in

:32:37.:32:41.

a position now where you are about to give birth, and within six weeks

:32:41.:32:50.

your husband could be out of the country? Yes.What would you say to

:32:50.:32:54.

people in the end about an act that has benefited neither of you?

:32:54.:33:00.

is a question around portionality and scale, Trenton was punished, he

:33:00.:33:03.

served a prison sentence, we are paying off the Crown costs, he was

:33:03.:33:07.

released on a tag. He didn't break any of those condition. He's

:33:07.:33:11.

contributed and worked in this country for over a decade. But he

:33:11.:33:16.

now is a criminal, of course? think the question around the right

:33:16.:33:19.

to protest and the criminal yietsation of protest needs to be

:33:19.:33:24.

discussed. -- criminalisation of protests need to be discussed. The

:33:24.:33:26.

question around migrants and whether migrants have the right to

:33:26.:33:30.

protest around issues that they feel are unjust. In our

:33:30.:33:34.

neighbourhood I think Trenton was trying to say things like minimum

:33:34.:33:39.

wage, minimum working hours, that's all been done through migrants

:33:39.:33:45.

protesting. It is a interested decisional thing. Are you --It is

:33:45.:33:48.

traditional thing. Are you going to have to say you are a reformed

:33:48.:33:51.

character? It is so interesting, when you go to prison nobody could

:33:51.:33:55.

tell me what the point of prison was. Nobody was able to say through

:33:55.:33:59.

this process that I would be reformed or rehabilitated or

:33:59.:34:04.

punished. So I mean...You Are not really rehabilitated again?

:34:04.:34:09.

imagine, it would seem that is the casek because I was allowed out of

:34:09.:34:14.

prison without any issues. But the issue at stake here is whether or

:34:14.:34:18.

not you can protest? And what I'm' dealing with at the moment is I

:34:18.:34:22.

will be concentrating on my family, I have some books to write, they

:34:22.:34:25.

are the key issues. People do have the right to protest and not to be

:34:25.:34:28.

criminalised for that protesting. Are you determined not to go to

:34:28.:34:34.

Australia, you may have to go? Well it would be he very difficult

:34:34.:34:39.

because our life is completely entangled here, we live and work

:34:39.:34:42.

together, everything is involved. We are hoping it was a technical

:34:42.:34:45.

mistake by the Home Office and we are hoping they will clarify that

:34:45.:34:49.

it was an oversight. Thank you very much indeed.

:34:49.:34:53.

Before the end of the programme we have tomorrow's front page, first,

:34:53.:34:57.

it is very rare to see killers boasting about their crimes. And

:34:57.:35:01.

certainly not the perpetrators of mass murder. But in a new

:35:01.:35:05.

documentary feature, The Act Of Killing, which revisits the bloody

:35:05.:35:10.

aftermath of the coup in Indonesian in 1975, the original

:35:10.:35:13.

paramilitaries who executed hundreds of thousands of alleged

:35:13.:35:16.

communists do just that. The film maker, Joshua Oppenheimer, tracked

:35:16.:35:21.

down the leader of the death squads and they readily agreed to re-enact

:35:21.:35:25.

several of their murders, delighting in the most bloodthirsty

:35:25.:35:33.

details. These exerts contain distressing images.

:35:33.:35:37.

After the 1965 coup anybody opposed to the new military dictatorship

:35:37.:35:41.

could be accused of being a communist. This included union

:35:41.:35:46.

members, landless farmers, intellectuals and ethnic Chinese.

:35:46.:35:56.
:35:56.:35:56.

In America the attack on communism was seen as a major victory.

:35:56.:36:03.

Anwar Congo was the loader of the Pancasila Youth paramilitaries,

:36:03.:36:08.

which still existed today. He enthusiastically demonstrated to

:36:08.:36:15.

the camera what happened after he had beaten his victims to death,

:36:15.:36:25.
:36:25.:36:45.

because the smell and the mess was The killers dress up in outlandish,

:36:45.:36:51.

garish outfits, making elaborate sets and cajoling Indonesians to

:36:51.:36:57.

take part in violent re-enactments, oblivious to the fact they are

:36:57.:37:07.
:37:07.:37:34.

incriminating themselves in war It was a very multilayered

:37:34.:37:38.

documentary, including the prp traitors talking to each other --

:37:38.:37:42.

perpetrators talking about what they did to each other. Joshua

:37:42.:37:48.

Oppenheimer is with me now. You started off filming with survivors

:37:48.:37:52.

and then switched to the perpetrators? Every time we filmed

:37:52.:38:00.

with the survivors the police would and arrest us, and it terrified the

:38:00.:38:05.

survivors. He went back and asked should we make this and is it too

:38:05.:38:09.

sensitive still. And everybody said you must make a film, one that

:38:09.:38:12.

exposes what happened and what has happened to a whole society built

:38:12.:38:17.

by the killers and is based on the celebration of atrocities as

:38:17.:38:20.

something herok. I find it extraordinary, in which the killers

:38:20.:38:26.

move around, act completely with impunity, are still heros in what

:38:26.:38:30.

you expose of being a very corrupt and brutal society, elements of it?

:38:30.:38:35.

I think normally when we hear from perpetrators in film, they either

:38:35.:38:39.

apologise for what they have done or they deny it. That is because by

:38:39.:38:42.

the time we approach them, they have been removed from power. Here

:38:42.:38:46.

the killers have won, they are still in power, they have built a

:38:46.:38:50.

whole society based on celebrating their atrocities, and it gives us

:38:50.:38:53.

this opportunity to ask a fundamentally human question, which

:38:53.:38:57.

is, first of all, how do we human beings do this to each other, but

:38:58.:39:02.

what happens when we build our normality on terror and lies.

:39:02.:39:05.

is a question you were asking, but that was a question that only came

:39:05.:39:10.

later to the killers themselves. And I wonder how they saw you?

:39:10.:39:13.

Because they call you Josh, they trust you, you are behind the

:39:13.:39:17.

camera a lot of the time. And yet they know you are from Denmark.

:39:17.:39:22.

That you are looking in on them. It was as if they were so blinded to

:39:22.:39:26.

the fact that what they did was so appalling, they were happy to tell

:39:26.:39:31.

you that they started to garotte people because it was too bloody

:39:31.:39:36.

and smelly to machete them to death. It was one of the most shocking

:39:36.:39:40.

things I have ever seen I think? The viewers first relationship to

:39:40.:39:45.

the film is mine as well. Which is my gosh these men feel no remorse.

:39:45.:39:49.

The curious thing happens during the film is some how they are

:39:49.:39:51.

boasting about what they have done and celebrating what they have done,

:39:51.:39:56.

and it turns out to be a symptom perhaps of the fact that they knew

:39:56.:40:00.

it was wrong to begin with. They are desperately trying to convince

:40:00.:40:03.

themselves that what they have done was right. And by the end of the

:40:03.:40:09.

film some how they make scene after scene trying to some how run away

:40:09.:40:12.

from the meaning of what they have done, only to find themselves

:40:12.:40:15.

confronted with it. These were the particular death squads you are

:40:15.:40:18.

talking about just now. But all along the way we have this

:40:19.:40:22.

paramilitary group still in power, and is very much entrenched and

:40:22.:40:27.

entwined with the Government. With what you see in the film is

:40:27.:40:30.

tremendous corruption, brutality, attitudes towards women which are

:40:30.:40:34.

appalling, and the every day attitudes of some of the regime. So

:40:34.:40:38.

tell me where is it being shown in Indonesian, and can you ever go

:40:38.:40:45.

back -- Indonesia and can you ever go back? The film in the country

:40:45.:40:49.

has censorship, which they ban the film, so it is a crime to show it.

:40:49.:40:53.

We have held underground to screenings, some of them big, 600

:40:53.:40:59.

people, as of April there were 500 screenings in 95 cities and it is

:40:59.:41:04.

growing daily across Indonesia. Handing stuff on or is it done on

:41:04.:41:12.

social media? It is giving out DVDs, blue-rays, but also cinemas showing

:41:12.:41:16.

proper cinema seats. But inat this vaigs-only screenings, with 500

:41:16.:41:22.

people. The film has come like the little child in the Emperor's new

:41:22.:41:25.

clothes and saying the king is naked and everyone was too afraid

:41:25.:41:29.

to say it. And now said so powerfully by the killers

:41:29.:41:32.

themselves, there is no going back. During the course of the film you

:41:32.:41:37.

reshow some of your footage to the killers and they are contemplative

:41:37.:41:40.

sometimes, they quite like it. What about some of the people who come

:41:41.:41:49.

off worse than the killer, what is their response? I assume the

:41:49.:41:54.

political leaders, whom Anwar recruits into the film, I assume

:41:54.:41:59.

they feel betrayed. I hope they do, otherwise I haven't done my job.

:41:59.:42:04.

you still speak to him? I'm still in touch with him, we have been

:42:04.:42:10.

through a very painful and intimate and powerful journey together. But

:42:10.:42:14.

the politicians in Indonesia will make it that I could probably get

:42:14.:42:17.

into Indonesia but I wouldn't get out probably. So in a sense all the

:42:18.:42:21.

efforts you have made to learn the language and everything, your job

:42:21.:42:25.

is done? That is a great sadness for me that the community with whom

:42:25.:42:28.

I made the film they became my family, it was a very dark journey

:42:28.:42:34.

for me and painful journey. They lit this dark road with their

:42:34.:42:39.

laughter and support. In the end did you actually like some of the

:42:39.:42:44.

killers? I think "like" is the wrong word. I think I came to be

:42:44.:42:49.

less and less, even as I retained my judgment of their acts, I became

:42:49.:42:54.

less and less willing to judge another human being as an entire

:42:54.:42:58.

person. I think I feel love for Anwar as a human being, I think

:42:59.:43:04.

"like" is certainly the wrong word. Thank you very much, The Act Of

:43:04.:43:08.

Killing is reduced in cinemas at this country, and Josh will be

:43:08.:43:18.
:43:18.:43:18.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 57 seconds

:43:18.:44:15.

speaking at events around the That is the end of tonight's

:44:15.:44:20.

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