24/06/2013 Newsnight


24/06/2013

Stephen Lawrence's father on accusations of police smears. Why are Brazilians protesting? The ex-head of the CIA on Snowden. The children saved from the Nazis.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 24/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

A devastating blow, Stephen Lawrence's father gives us his

:00:14.:00:18.

reings and r action to claims that the police tried to smear his

:00:18.:00:22.

family. I want a public inquiry, a full public inquiry into all the

:00:22.:00:26.

stuff that was happening during the time of my son's death right back

:00:26.:00:30.

up until now. I want everything to be revealed. An undercover cop says

:00:30.:00:34.

he was asked to find dirt on the Lawrence family and help discredit

:00:34.:00:39.

campaigners. How could this happen? We will hear tonight from an

:00:39.:00:43.

activist who knew the undercover police concerned, the Lawrence

:00:43.:00:50.

family lawyer and a former undercover Met family officer.

:00:50.:00:55.

Brazil. Protest leaders meet the President, we are in Rio to find

:00:55.:01:01.

out who they are and what they want? We want healthy, better

:01:01.:01:05.

education. We want a country free of corruption. The plane from

:01:05.:01:10.

Moscow took off to Havana full of journalist, but without the man who

:01:10.:01:15.

exposed the secret world of NSA and GCHQ. Where is Edward Snowdon. We

:01:15.:01:24.

will speak to Mark Urban and the former head of the NSA.

:01:24.:01:34.

And The Dark Knight? There were signs saying "die Jews".

:01:34.:01:40.

Rifkind mission brought -- the Kindertransport brought thousands

:01:40.:01:44.

out of Nazi Germany to Britain. We will hear their stories.

:01:45.:01:47.

Good evening there is nobody to peace for the Lawrence familiarly,

:01:47.:01:51.

just more anger and dismay. 20 years after Stephen Lawrence's

:01:51.:01:56.

murder, a former undercover police officers claims he was sent out by

:01:56.:02:01.

chiefs at Scotland Yard to try to dish the dirt, to discredit the

:02:01.:02:05.

Lawrence's and the family's campaign for justice. He came up

:02:05.:02:08.

with nothing, and today the Prime Minister described the allegations

:02:08.:02:11.

as horrific and pledged today get the truth out. The allegations

:02:11.:02:15.

revealed by Channel 4's Dispatches and the Guardian are to be the

:02:15.:02:22.

subject of two existing inquiries into police activities. But not as

:02:22.:02:26.

Neville Lawrence is demanding, a public inquiry.

:02:26.:02:32.

First we have this. Two decades ago black teenager Stephen Lawrence was

:02:32.:02:37.

stabbed to death in an unprovoked attack. It took 18 years to

:02:37.:02:42.

successfully convict two men. An inquiry later found the process had

:02:42.:02:46.

been dogged by institutional racism. But this morning a long shadow

:02:46.:02:50.

stretched longer still. It was alleged that as Stephen's family

:02:50.:02:56.

and friends grieved the policemen went undercover amongst them.

:02:56.:03:00.

wanted any intelligence that could have smeared the campaign, yes,

:03:00.:03:05.

there is this general remit. So had I, through my circles, come up with

:03:05.:03:10.

something along the lines of the family were political activists, if

:03:10.:03:16.

somebody in the family was involved in demonstrations. Drug dealers?

:03:16.:03:20.

Anything. What they would have done with the intelligence I can't call

:03:20.:03:23.

it, but that is our remit. Not just for them, that is always our remit

:03:23.:03:30.

when we are out there. After the vixs last year of two men for

:03:30.:03:35.

lawyer -- convictions last year of two men or the murder, there was an

:03:35.:03:38.

independent review ordered that police corruption shielded the

:03:38.:03:40.

killers of Stephen Lawrence. Today the Prime Minister was also quick

:03:40.:03:44.

to respond. This is worrying, that is why two investigations, one of

:03:44.:03:47.

them being led by the Chief Constable of another police force

:03:47.:03:51.

are under way. And the Home Secretary is acting swiftly to make

:03:51.:03:54.

sure that these investigations cover all of the potential

:03:54.:03:59.

allegations and we get to the bottom of this as rapidly as

:03:59.:04:02.

possible. After undercover police officer Mark Kennedy was revealed

:04:02.:04:07.

to have spent years infiltrating environmental groups, an inquiry

:04:07.:04:11.

then recommended greater scrutiny and management of undercover

:04:11.:04:15.

operations. Now two inquiries will look at these fresh revelations. An

:04:15.:04:21.

on going one into the met police's special demonstrations squad, or

:04:21.:04:24.

SDS, Operation Herne, it is a more general look into undercover

:04:24.:04:30.

policing. It is overseen by Mick Creedon, Chief Constable of

:04:30.:04:34.

Derbyshire. Barrister Mark Ellison is also already investigating

:04:34.:04:36.

allegations of corruption in the original Lawrence investigation. He

:04:36.:04:42.

will now have access to anything discovered about SDS involvement.

:04:42.:04:46.

In fact there is about 12-15 inquiries and reviews happening at

:04:46.:04:50.

the moment within the Met and outside, into undercover policing.

:04:50.:04:55.

But no-one inquiry is actually looking at the whole thing of every

:04:55.:04:58.

aspect. What Theresa May announced today doesn't go far enough. The

:04:58.:05:01.

fact is we don't know if this is still happening, it is not really

:05:01.:05:06.

good enough that the Met investigates itself on something

:05:06.:05:12.

this serious. Honestly, it worries me that it could still be happening.

:05:12.:05:16.

Jenny Jones is joined by the former Director of Public Prosecutions.

:05:16.:05:19.

Chief Constable Creedon, who is conducting one of the

:05:19.:05:23.

investigations into these matters, he's a police officer, obviously he

:05:23.:05:26.

said that actually the police are the best people to investigate the

:05:26.:05:32.

police. Well, no, they are not. Just as barristers are not the best

:05:32.:05:36.

people to investigate barristers or doctors are not the best people to

:05:36.:05:39.

investigate doctors, we need independents, we need some distance

:05:39.:05:43.

from what went on. We need the scrutiny of a judicial figure

:05:43.:05:47.

considering the material in public, issuing a considered report with

:05:47.:05:52.

findings and recommendations. Politicians of all sides have been

:05:52.:05:55.

shocked by these revelations. But the Government thinks that the time

:05:56.:06:01.

isn't right for a full scale public independent inquiry. Their dilemma

:06:01.:06:05.

is how to balance that decision with also reacting sufficiently to

:06:05.:06:09.

the public outcry. And over time their decision may come under

:06:09.:06:12.

pressure. Many in Westminster believe this morning's revelations

:06:12.:06:18.

are just the start of it. The undercover policeman alleged he

:06:18.:06:22.

had other targets, including Lawrence's best friend, Duwayne

:06:22.:06:27.

Brooks, who was with him on the night he died. Francis said he

:06:27.:06:29.

uncovered evidence to have Brooks arrested and charged with criminal

:06:29.:06:33.

damage. But the case of thrown out by a judge as an abuse of the legal

:06:33.:06:38.

process. Myself and another SDS officer went

:06:38.:06:44.

through the material we had, the media we had, and between us we had

:06:44.:06:47.

identified him participating in some criminality, perceived

:06:47.:06:52.

criminality. For many politicians the allegations don't fall into a

:06:52.:06:59.

vacuum, but they reenforce fears in some communities. It feeds

:06:59.:07:04.

perceptions, particularly among young people that the attitude the

:07:04.:07:07.

police have towards ethnic minorities in this country. The

:07:07.:07:10.

police only work through consent, it is so important they have the

:07:10.:07:13.

trust of all the communities that make up this great city in order to

:07:13.:07:18.

do their job properly. Anything that damages the trust is dangerous

:07:18.:07:22.

for all Londoners for the ability of the police to do a good job for

:07:22.:07:26.

you. It has been damaged today?It is difficult to think of how the

:07:26.:07:28.

response that the Lawrence family received from the police could have

:07:28.:07:32.

been any further from the response that they were entitled to expect

:07:32.:07:37.

when their son was brutally murdered on the streets of this

:07:37.:07:41.

city. Tonight the Lawrence family re-examined the events of 20 years

:07:41.:07:47.

a tomorrow more allegations in the Guardian. But Scotland Yard also

:07:47.:07:50.

went under cover in political groups.

:07:50.:07:56.

Earlier today I spoke to Stephen's father, Neville, who is in Jamaica.

:07:56.:08:02.

What do you make of Peter Francis's revelations? It is a devastating

:08:02.:08:08.

blow to my confidence, thinking that we have been through all of

:08:08.:08:14.

this before. We are had he hands of all the upheaval that has

:08:14.:08:20.

concerneded our lives for the past 20 years. Does it surprise you that

:08:20.:08:23.

the police were apparently looking for dirt on your family? I knew in

:08:23.:08:27.

the early days they were doing it. I didn't know the extent of what

:08:27.:08:33.

they were doing. Your former wife, Doreen, said she

:08:33.:08:35.

remembers thinking something strange was happening, because

:08:35.:08:39.

Special Branch wanted the names of all the people that came to pay

:08:39.:08:44.

their respects. What happened? had a blue book that we recorded

:08:44.:08:47.

the names of the people in the house every day. They wanted to see

:08:47.:08:52.

this book. We couldn't understand why they wanted to see the names of

:08:52.:08:55.

people who had come from as far as Birmingham to support us in our

:08:55.:08:59.

hour of need. We wouldn't give it to them. You didn't give them the

:08:59.:09:05.

book? No, we didn't. Because we couldn't see what connection the

:09:05.:09:08.

people that were in the house who came to support us had with the

:09:08.:09:14.

murder of hour son. So we refused to give them the book. Were you

:09:14.:09:17.

aware they were trying to collect and collate the information in

:09:17.:09:21.

another way? The fact that they were saying that we were

:09:21.:09:25.

investigating, we were interrupting the investigation was another

:09:25.:09:32.

things that made us suspicious. We couldn't see how an ordinary family,

:09:32.:09:35.

miles away from the investigation was interfering in the

:09:35.:09:38.

investigation. Can you tell me, you think that the police were saying

:09:38.:09:42.

that you were interfering with the investigation? Yeah, they kept

:09:42.:09:46.

saying that the family of interfering with the investigation.

:09:46.:09:50.

And we couldn't see how they were doing that. Because we were doing

:09:50.:09:55.

everything possible to try to help with the investigation. Did you

:09:55.:09:59.

actually have trust in the police at that time? Although we didn't

:09:59.:10:04.

have any trust in the police, we thought that the fact that we had

:10:04.:10:11.

so many public people and focus on them, even if we weren't really

:10:11.:10:15.

satisfied with what they were doing, we thought by the attention that

:10:15.:10:20.

the family had focused on them and from all the organisations that

:10:20.:10:24.

were involved, that they would do the right thing. Are you surs

:10:24.:10:29.

priced that the police held this back from the William Macpherson

:10:29.:10:35.

inquiry? I'm surprised, but I'm also really, what you say, I was

:10:35.:10:39.

getting to the stage where I was starting to feel as if they had

:10:39.:10:43.

done something wrong, they had apologised, so we can move on from

:10:43.:10:49.

there. And now 20 years later, to hear something like this. Does it

:10:49.:10:54.

make you angry? It has made me really, really angry. I'm starting

:10:54.:11:00.

to think what do I do now. Do I still try and have a kind of a

:11:00.:11:05.

relationship with these people are just cut ties with them completely?

:11:05.:11:09.

What do you want to happen now, Neville? I want a public inquiry, I

:11:09.:11:13.

want a full public inquiry into all the stuff that was happening during

:11:13.:11:17.

the time of my son's death, right back up until now. I want

:11:17.:11:20.

everything to be revealed so we don't have to have another year

:11:20.:11:24.

from now I don't want to hear anything else that comes out, any

:11:24.:11:28.

secrets. Do you think that you might take legal action? Well I'm

:11:29.:11:36.

talking to my lawyers now, because I feel this is a intrusion into my

:11:36.:11:38.

private life. Do you now recall conversations

:11:38.:11:41.

where you thought perhaps at the time it was innocent with the

:11:41.:11:47.

police, but you now realise they were fishing? Well from the first

:11:47.:11:50.

investigation, and all the fiasco that was happening, and all the

:11:50.:11:57.

things that were said, all the papers had gone missing, I started

:11:57.:12:02.

to doubt these people investigating the crime. What option do I have, I

:12:02.:12:06.

can't investigate the crime myself, the family couldn't do that, we had

:12:06.:12:10.

to rely on whosoever they sent to do it. Is there anything you want

:12:10.:12:17.

to say that I didn't ask you? I'm now four-and-a-half, nearly

:12:17.:12:22.

5,000 miles away from all my family, my daughter, my son, my grand kids,

:12:22.:12:27.

and for me to be dealing with something like this by myself is

:12:27.:12:32.

not very easy. Normally when there is a problem I'm in London and I'm

:12:32.:12:35.

surrounded by my solicitor, my friend and everybody who knows

:12:35.:12:40.

about the case. In Jamaica I have got nothing like that to help me

:12:40.:12:43.

with it. I have to be dealing with this by myself.

:12:43.:12:48.

Thank you very much indeed. right then.

:12:48.:12:53.

With me now is a member of the anti-racist group apparently

:12:53.:12:57.

infiltrated by undercover police. A former undercover policeman, Peter

:12:57.:13:02.

Bleksley, and Imran Khan, the policor representing Stephen

:13:02.:13:06.

Lawrence's mother, Doreen. Good evening all of you. Imran Khan, you

:13:06.:13:09.

heard Neville Lawrence saying there that he thought because there was

:13:09.:13:12.

so much interest in the case that the police would do the right thing.

:13:12.:13:16.

Now we have the allegations by Peter Francis that he came under

:13:16.:13:20.

pressure to dish the dirt, are you surprised? I should be surprised

:13:20.:13:25.

but I'm not sur pryed but because of the way the Met Police have been

:13:25.:13:28.

treating the family from day one. I was there within days of the murder

:13:28.:13:32.

happening, we saw police officers, and family liaison officers coming

:13:32.:13:35.

into the house and asking questions about who was there rather than

:13:35.:13:40.

going on to the streets. Asking for the blue book? Asking who was

:13:40.:13:44.

coming in and what they were coming for. It looked from the family's

:13:44.:13:48.

perspective that they were under the microscope when some how the

:13:48.:13:51.

killer was within the midst. Doreen said the killer of white and those

:13:51.:13:56.

who supported her were black, why look inside the house. You can see

:13:56.:14:05.

the impact on Neville, and I know you still act for Doreen, does she

:14:05.:14:09.

want an independent inquiry? does, the inquiry announced by the

:14:09.:14:13.

Prime Minister is not sufficient. We know from the undercover police

:14:13.:14:16.

officers he wanted the evidence to come out and the police stopped

:14:16.:14:19.

that. How can we trust the police and Mark Ellison doing things

:14:20.:14:22.

behind closed doors. At the moment she's pausing because she has asked

:14:22.:14:25.

me to write a letter to the commissioner with 13 key questions

:14:25.:14:30.

to be asked. If those questions are satisfactory, and if there is an

:14:30.:14:35.

apology, perhaps we don't need that inquiry. I'm sure you don't have

:14:35.:14:41.

the 13 questions off pat, but can you give us an idea? Who gave the

:14:41.:14:48.

intrusion, who gave the orders for questions asked during the inquiry,

:14:48.:14:52.

and what was done with it. The officer said nothing was found.

:14:52.:14:57.

What was the motive? Exactly.Peter Francis who appeared in the

:14:57.:15:02.

Dispatches programme tonight, he was known to you? That's right.So

:15:02.:15:06.

he infiltrated your group? Yeah. Explain what happened? We were very

:15:06.:15:12.

active, in fact we set up a campaign in 19887 in the Bexley and

:15:13.:15:18.

Greenwich area, very close to where Stephen was murdered because the

:15:19.:15:24.

BNP had set up their head quarter, we had done a the lot of work

:15:24.:15:29.

campaigning against racism and the BNP, warning the politicians at the

:15:29.:15:33.

time they were a danger in our community. We did a lot of work. We

:15:34.:15:37.

were organising very large protests, when Stephen was murdered we

:15:37.:15:41.

organised a big demonstration in the community. And Peter Francis

:15:41.:15:46.

came in soon after the murder? is when he came in. What did he do

:15:46.:15:52.

within the group? He have driving people around. He was dishing out

:15:52.:15:55.

leaflets. Somebody said he was very good at putting placards together,

:15:55.:15:59.

he put a lot of them together. One of the things that makes some

:15:59.:16:03.

members of our group now think well actually if somebody was going to

:16:03.:16:07.

be spying on us it was probably him was that he always wanted to egg

:16:07.:16:12.

people on to do things that our group weren't interested in. We

:16:12.:16:18.

were a large democratic peaceful. He was largely thinking there were

:16:18.:16:21.

militants and troublemakers around at that time? I think probably so.

:16:21.:16:24.

On the fringes of your group? think there is big questions that

:16:24.:16:27.

need to be asked about a policeman coming into an organisation and

:16:28.:16:32.

trying to egg people on to take part in criminal activity which we

:16:32.:16:36.

opposed. He would deny he did that. Peter Bleksley, on the broader

:16:36.:16:45.

point about, as it were, egging people on, we know from some of the

:16:45.:16:51.

other inquiries that undercover police officers were acting in a

:16:51.:16:57.

more high-profile roles? And acting as agent provoke ters, and inciting

:16:57.:17:03.

people to do things they shouldn't do. On this question of dishing the

:17:03.:17:07.

dirt on the Lawrence family. Is it possible the special demonstration

:17:07.:17:12.

squad, of which Peter Francis was a member, was going rogue over the

:17:12.:17:17.

Lawrence family in some way, badge of honour, or was it being signed

:17:17.:17:22.

off? I was working undercover at this time in 1993, into serious and

:17:22.:17:25.

organised crime. Did you know anything about the Lawrence

:17:25.:17:30.

investigation by undercover policing? I knew nothing about that

:17:30.:17:36.

or the existence of the special demonstration squad. Our unit was

:17:36.:17:40.

separate. Is it conceivable that the unit trying to find stuff out

:17:40.:17:44.

about the Lawrence family was rogue or likely to be signed off? I think

:17:44.:17:48.

it is completely inconceivable that these officers were acting off

:17:48.:17:54.

their own bat. Lord Condon said he had no knowledge, he neither signed

:17:54.:17:59.

off it off or had had knew anything about it. Not necessarily signed

:17:59.:18:04.

off to the officer of the Met? we were operating in serious orgd

:18:04.:18:09.

crime, we would need the authority of a Deputy Assistant Commissioner

:18:09.:18:13.

for every organisation. The reports seeking the permissions to act

:18:13.:18:16.

undercover would work up through the chain of command. Many senior

:18:16.:18:20.

officers would be aware of what we were trying to do. The thing is,

:18:20.:18:25.

when you hear about that, it is an impingement on democracy?

:18:25.:18:28.

Completely, I don't buy this that Lord Condon didn't know. I know he

:18:28.:18:35.

says he didn't. But if he didn't how is it that officers were acting

:18:35.:18:41.

with complete impunity. The boss take the hit? Absolutely, Sir fir

:18:41.:18:45.

Macpherson, very much from the army -- William Macpherson, very much

:18:45.:18:48.

from the army background, he said you don't blame the foot soldiers

:18:49.:18:54.

but those who gave the orders. If it goes all the way to Deputy

:18:54.:18:57.

Assistant Commissioner there must be some memos that passed through

:18:57.:19:00.

his office. He has some questions to answer. He was in charge when

:19:00.:19:08.

the inquiry took place. Was he at fault? The Guardian's front page

:19:08.:19:13.

tomorrow, another exclusive about Scotland Yard deploying undercover

:19:13.:19:18.

officers in political groups that sought to uncover corruption in the

:19:18.:19:21.

Metropolitan Police and campaign for justice for people dying in

:19:21.:19:27.

custody. This is why we need a thorough

:19:27.:19:30.

going inquiry. It is not good enough what we have at the moment,

:19:30.:19:33.

which is the police investigating themselves, or an inquiry which has

:19:33.:19:39.

been held in closed court. Secret court. We need protestors,

:19:39.:19:41.

environmental campaigners, trade unionists who have also been spyed

:19:41.:19:46.

on and blacklisted and all sorts of things. We need a thorough on going

:19:46.:19:50.

inquiry. I think this is not just a rogue unit or rogue individual. I

:19:50.:19:54.

think this is policy. There has been a campaign over recent years

:19:54.:19:58.

in this country to criminalise protestors. That's what the

:19:58.:20:03.

kettleing has been all about. That is why we need a real thorough

:20:03.:20:13.
:20:13.:20:17.

inquiry. Is iten an apault on democracy? It is --Is it an

:20:17.:20:24.

assault on knockcy? Yes, and the judge has said so with the case of

:20:24.:20:28.

Mark Kennedy, that Intelligence Unit that was a successor to the

:20:28.:20:31.

SDS. A judge commented that they were operating against decent

:20:31.:20:34.

people wanting to express their lawful right to protest. That is

:20:34.:20:38.

not what undercover policing is about.

:20:39.:20:42.

When they protest in Brazil it is commended. But when we protest here

:20:42.:20:46.

we are criminals and we have this sort of surveillance, it is an

:20:46.:20:50.

attack on our democratic rights. Indeed Brazil's President, Dilma

:20:50.:20:54.

Rousseff, is having her first meeting about now with mbs of the

:20:54.:20:56.

protest movement who started the demonstration -- members of the

:20:56.:21:01.

protest movement that started the demonstrations that engulfed the

:21:01.:21:05.

country. In the beginning it was bus fares in Sao Paulo, that

:21:05.:21:08.

exploded in riots in city after city, with political loader

:21:08.:21:12.

struggling to work out what exactly was going on. We are in Rio to find

:21:12.:21:14.

out what those who took to the streets in their hundreds of

:21:14.:21:24.
:21:24.:21:32.

Anger in a place renowned for relaxation. The Government doesn't

:21:32.:21:41.

respect our rights. On Rio's Copacabana Beach, they are

:21:42.:21:45.

denouncing the way their country is run. All over BR still the

:21:46.:21:49.

education is really, really -- Brazil, the education is really,

:21:49.:21:53.

really bad, the schools, the hospitals. We are tired of hearing

:21:53.:21:58.

that our country is only carnival, football and that's not true.

:21:58.:22:04.

These are educated, overwhelmingly middle-class Brazilians. Their fury

:22:05.:22:11.

long pent-up has astonished their rulers.

:22:11.:22:15.

Vito Fernades is typical of those who have taken to the streets all

:22:15.:22:20.

over Brazil. He's a new low- qualified pharmacist, working in a

:22:20.:22:26.

Government laboratory. He has -- newly qualified pharmacist, working

:22:26.:22:29.

in a Government laboratory. He has had opportunities but others

:22:29.:22:33.

haven't? We want better, healthy better education, and we want a

:22:33.:22:38.

country free of corruption. This is really an important event.

:22:38.:22:41.

How important is this event? This is huge, they have never done

:22:41.:22:45.

anything, and now we are trying to change and make a better place to

:22:45.:22:51.

live. He is marching against a left-wing

:22:52.:22:55.

Government that boasts it has pulled tens of millions out of

:22:55.:23:00.

poverty, made them more like the people in this crowd. So has the

:23:00.:23:07.

state, to some extent, become a victim of its own success.

:23:07.:23:13.

Salvo Brazil. Rapid development has turned a once

:23:13.:23:18.

poor nation into the world's seventh-biggest economy. Its

:23:18.:23:22.

inequalities are now more evident than ever. For most of the last ten

:23:22.:23:26.

years Brazil has been on the up and up. Unemployment is at a record low,

:23:26.:23:31.

the number of university students has doubled, but as the economy has

:23:31.:23:36.

grown so have expectations. And the boom has thrown the sorry state of

:23:36.:23:40.

the country's public serves into ever sharper relief.

:23:40.:23:45.

Hosting the football World Cup next year in Rio's rebuilt Maracana

:23:45.:23:48.

Stadium, and others around the country was intended as a crowning

:23:48.:23:54.

moment for the new Brazil. But for young people the competition and

:23:54.:24:00.

the �9 billion price tag has merely added to the feel-bad factor.

:24:00.:24:03.

we won everybody was really happen and celebrating it all around. It

:24:03.:24:10.

was like a wave. What went wrong, why are people no longer happy?

:24:10.:24:18.

ends up costing more and more to build these World Cup stadium. We

:24:18.:24:23.

saw that a lot of money that they didn't say would be involved

:24:23.:24:27.

started to be involved. And a lot of money that wasn't invested in

:24:28.:24:33.

education and health. So people start saying come on there is

:24:33.:24:39.

something wrong in it. We need to do something.

:24:39.:24:44.

President Dilma Rousseff had record high approval rates months ago.

:24:44.:24:48.

This morning she promised to fight corruption and spend more on public

:24:48.:24:58.
:24:58.:25:00.

transport and he hadcation. For the protestors it was all too vague.

:25:00.:25:04.

Vito Fernades is taking me to his house in a lower middle-class

:25:04.:25:12.

suburb, where most people in recent years have had more to spend.

:25:12.:25:17.

His mother Clara, who teaches physical education, cooks mainly at

:25:17.:25:22.

weekends. On other days the family has a home help to do it. They have

:25:22.:25:28.

got a new TV, a new microwave, a new car. But they are not happy.

:25:28.:25:31.

Economic growth has slowed and inflation is up, and what use is

:25:31.:25:38.

money in your pocket if services are still third rate. TRANSLATION:

:25:38.:25:43.

Taxes are rising, we pay one tax after the other. People are happier

:25:43.:25:48.

because they can buy more, but they are losing in other areas,

:25:48.:25:55.

education is terrible. A lot of people can now afford to have

:25:55.:26:01.

insurance, but the quality of the private system is as bad as the

:26:01.:26:05.

public system. The health system is in chaos. It is an illusion we are

:26:05.:26:09.

better off. If you think back to how, let as

:26:09.:26:19.

say, your family was ten years ago, 20 years ago, hasn't it got more

:26:19.:26:23.

things now than it used to have? I'm not fighting for my family, I'm

:26:23.:26:27.

fighting for the whole population. We see a lot of people don't have

:26:27.:26:32.

access to basic education. There is no quality in the education

:26:32.:26:36.

provided. It is not that I don't have education but a lot of people

:26:36.:26:42.

don't have. We want everybody to have access to this. You are not

:26:42.:26:47.

fighting for yourselves but other people? Yeah, for the country.It

:26:47.:26:52.

is hard to believe all this started over a 6p increase in bus fares

:26:52.:26:57.

that has now been recinded any way. Now we are protesting about far

:26:57.:27:02.

bigger issues, including a new law that would limit corruption

:27:02.:27:08.

investigations. There is no good in reminding these people that

:27:08.:27:12.

Brazilians can use the ballot box to protest. No healthcare, no jobs,

:27:12.:27:16.

no justice, what do you want? is a democracy, why not vote for

:27:16.:27:26.
:27:26.:27:28.

change? That is why we are here. I vote and I always lose. S this is

:27:28.:27:31.

the street where the Governor of Rio lives, the crowd are demanding

:27:31.:27:37.

to be let through, but the police won't let them. The horizontal

:27:37.:27:41.

nature of the protests, following others in Turkey, and elsewhere, is

:27:42.:27:49.

a source of strength and weakness. This man, an actor, admits he

:27:50.:27:54.

helped organise the protest through social media. But unsis he has no

:27:54.:28:04.
:28:04.:28:04.

political ambitions. Insists he has no political ambitions. Without a

:28:04.:28:08.

leader or ideas won't this movement stop? People are saying that, but

:28:08.:28:12.

this has happened for four weeks without a leadership. It is getting

:28:12.:28:18.

bigger and bigger and bigger. They say they don't know what they want,

:28:18.:28:26.

but we know what we don't want. is not clear what you want, you

:28:26.:28:30.

want too many things at once? Brazil is under an ocean of

:28:30.:28:35.

corruption and robbery and bad politics.

:28:35.:28:39.

Another bigger march is planned in Rio tonight. For now the

:28:39.:28:43.

authorities seem to be waiting and hoping the wave of anger will

:28:43.:28:45.

eventually subside? It is difficult for the Government to respond to a

:28:45.:28:48.

movement without leaders and with so many different demands. But it

:28:49.:28:52.

may also be difficult for the movement itself to maintain

:28:52.:28:55.

momentum. But whatever it achieves it is a

:28:55.:29:00.

reminder that ref lugs usually spring from rising expectations and

:29:00.:29:04.

a warning that economic growth and conventional democracy don't

:29:04.:29:13.

guarantee contentment. The intelligence whistleblower,

:29:13.:29:18.

Edward Snowdon, seems to have given America and the the world's press

:29:18.:29:23.

the slip. While many thought he was in America, Liverpool Care Pathway

:29:23.:29:30.

was left warning that if Russia and chine ignore the rule not to allow

:29:30.:29:38.

him to travel there would be issues. While some say he's holed up at

:29:38.:29:43.

Sheremetyevo Airport, nobody can be entirely sure. Where is he? Moscow

:29:43.:29:48.

is the US official version of this. His supporters in Wikileaks say

:29:48.:29:52.

he's in a place of safety. We know what he did, he got on a plane in

:29:52.:29:58.

Hong Kong yesterday and flew to Moscow. That seems clear he was

:29:58.:30:02.

tipped off in Hong Kong by people that it was time to go. From there

:30:02.:30:08.

he was booked on a flight to Havana, which numerous journalists felt

:30:08.:30:11.

they were enterprising and got themselves on to the same flight

:30:11.:30:17.

this morning. But lo and behold when they went to seat 17 to see

:30:17.:30:21.

him and the Wikileaks lawyer who trapped with him, there was --

:30:21.:30:26.

travelled with him, there was nobody sitting in the seats.

:30:26.:30:30.

Havana flight may have been a ruse or he may have made other

:30:30.:30:36.

arrangements, some say Venezuela. The most likely destination would

:30:36.:30:40.

be Ecuador, which says it has received an asylum application from

:30:40.:30:45.

him and is considering it. It seems Ecuador provided him with the

:30:45.:30:48.

travel document on which he left Hong Kong, because his US passport

:30:48.:30:52.

had been cancelled. The Americans are aggregating, but what can they

:30:53.:31:00.

actually do -- agitating, but what can they actually do to get Himba

:31:00.:31:04.

back -- back -- him back? They are using that language, Liverpool Care

:31:04.:31:11.

Pathway decribing him as a man who betrayed his country, -- John Kerry

:31:11.:31:16.

decribing him as a man who betrayed his country. They say they are

:31:16.:31:21.

putting diplomatic pressure on all those involved. In this context

:31:21.:31:26.

must mean Russia, Ecuador, to arrest and deport him as soon as

:31:26.:31:28.

possible. They have been indulging in recriminations against the

:31:28.:31:32.

people in Hong Kong, who they say, ignored an arrest warrant, and the

:31:32.:31:35.

fact that his passport had been cancelled to allow him to travel.

:31:35.:31:40.

This today from the White House. We are just not buying that this

:31:40.:31:45.

was a technical decision by a Hong Kong immigration official. This was

:31:45.:31:48.

a tkhib rate choice by the Government to release -- deliberate

:31:48.:31:54.

choice by the Government to release a fugutive, despite an arrest

:31:54.:32:01.

warrant, that Haslem a neglect -- has a negative impact on the US-

:32:01.:32:05.

China relationship. Is he safe? is conceivable a country like

:32:05.:32:08.

Russia may decide it is in their interest to hold him or send him to

:32:08.:32:14.

the States. Joining me live from Washington is

:32:14.:32:17.

ambassador wools wools wools, former head of the C -- James

:32:17.:32:23.

Woolsey, and former head of the CIA. This is pretty embarrassing for

:32:23.:32:29.

America, isn't it? You have lost him? Yes, I think so, it started

:32:29.:32:33.

being embarrassing some time ago. This administration has had a habit

:32:33.:32:37.

of drawing a line in the sand and forgetting about it. Or saying that

:32:37.:32:44.

something is unacceptable and that accepting it, or telling Putin

:32:44.:32:49.

indirectly that they willable able to offer more concessions after --

:32:49.:32:52.

will be able to offer more concessions once President Obama

:32:52.:32:56.

was elected over an open microphone. They have put themselves in a

:32:56.:33:01.

situation that the Russian find it rather easy to push this

:33:01.:33:04.

administration around. And the Equadorians are learning from the

:33:04.:33:07.

Russians. You say this as a former adviser of

:33:07.:33:10.

President Clinton. If you were advising President Obama now, what

:33:10.:33:14.

would you say to do, there is no point in rattling a sabre if you

:33:14.:33:19.

are not going to do anything about it? Well, I think you have to start

:33:19.:33:26.

being serious about what you say. And this administration has not

:33:26.:33:30.

given the impression that when it draws and conclusion and says this

:33:30.:33:35.

far and no further that it really means it. It has given the

:33:35.:33:39.

impression that it is sort of kind of means it sometimes. That is not

:33:39.:33:44.

effective. You can't work that way. Yeah, but you are speaking quite

:33:44.:33:48.

plainly, so speak more plainly, tell me what you think America can

:33:48.:33:53.

possibly do. What can they do, can they expel the Chinese and Russian

:33:53.:33:57.

ambassador, what can they do? are a number of things that we have

:33:57.:34:00.

going on with the Russians, for example, the Russians have worked

:34:00.:34:07.

very hard to keep us from deploying ballistic missiles as a defence in

:34:07.:34:10.

Europe to help protect Europe and the like. We always give these

:34:10.:34:13.

Russian efforts to shut down our ability to improve our defences and

:34:14.:34:22.

the rest a very serious "oh yes we have to work together" speil. That

:34:22.:34:28.

is the wrong kind of approach. were going to suggest that one way

:34:28.:34:32.

of doing this is saying if you do not hold on to Edward Snowdon and

:34:32.:34:35.

hand him over. Assuming he's not in South America, we will make sure we

:34:36.:34:42.

can put patriot missiles in Europe? I don't think that, those are

:34:42.:34:46.

defensive systems. I don't think that kind of sort of tantrum works.

:34:46.:34:50.

You have to seriously and fundamentally change the way you

:34:50.:34:56.

interact with states like Russia and China. It will take some time.

:34:56.:35:00.

It has been going in the wrong direction for at least five years.

:35:00.:35:03.

Do you accept that if Edward Snowdon gets to South America the

:35:03.:35:09.

game is up. You will not get him back? It is unlikely that we would

:35:09.:35:13.

get him back soon. But Government as change and South America and

:35:13.:35:18.

some of the Governments are left- wing and didn't used to be, some

:35:18.:35:26.

have migrated one direction and back again. Things can change. But

:35:26.:35:29.

I think persistence and firmness with those Governments. Ecuador

:35:29.:35:33.

depends on us, the United States, for about half of the export market.

:35:33.:35:38.

We could start cutting back on that rather easily and quickly.

:35:38.:35:46.

course there are countries who believe who have been on the end of

:35:46.:35:52.

the surveillance who believe what Edward Snowdon d was a -- did was a

:35:52.:35:58.

block to democracy? There are not those who have been on -- a blow to

:35:58.:36:04.

democracy? There are those who have not been dealt a blow by this. If

:36:04.:36:11.

they are sheltering terrorist then they have to. There is nothing new

:36:11.:36:16.

about that. What is new and is sort of strangely new is that although

:36:16.:36:21.

the United States has had a programme for well over 30 years,

:36:21.:36:24.

sanctioned by the Supreme Court, that let our Government keep track

:36:24.:36:28.

on what is on the outside of first class mail envelope, but not the up

:36:28.:36:31.

side. This is essentially what has been going on now, essentially

:36:31.:36:36.

doing the same thing with respect to telephone message, not getting

:36:36.:36:38.

into the conversation itself but rather into what number was dialed

:36:39.:36:43.

and what number it was dialed from. It turns out that can be very

:36:43.:36:45.

helpful. We have stopped something approaching 50 terrorist attack,

:36:45.:36:52.

according to the FBI by utilising some of the loose technologies with

:36:52.:36:59.

called big data. By stopping that, by interfering with that, these

:36:59.:37:09.

people like Snowdon are putting a serious risk on a lot of people's

:37:09.:37:13.

lives. Some may disagree. Thank you for joining you. It is 75 years

:37:13.:37:16.

since the British Government sanctioned a mission to bring

:37:16.:37:19.

Jewish children into the UK in the wake of the devastation of Crystal

:37:19.:37:24.

Night, in Germany and Austria. In what one former child refugee said

:37:24.:37:28.

was an exceptional act of rescue. 10,000 children were put on

:37:28.:37:31.

transport by their parents desperate to get them to safety.

:37:31.:37:35.

Acts of commemoration are taking place this week. As survivors grow

:37:35.:37:38.

old, how should their stories be remembered by younger generations.

:37:39.:37:48.
:37:49.:37:53.

Newsnight met four of them. We arrived here disorientated,

:37:53.:37:59.

depressed. I wrote in a book that we entered the train in our home

:37:59.:38:03.

town as children and left the train as adults. Because from here on we

:38:03.:38:13.
:38:13.:38:16.

were responsible for our own lives for the rest of our lives.

:38:16.:38:22.

I slept through the actual night and got up in the morning to go to

:38:22.:38:28.

school and as I walked on to the street there were glass all over

:38:28.:38:35.

the street, there were crowds on the street, and I realised that

:38:35.:38:38.

something very sensational had happened. And I began to slowly

:38:38.:38:45.

realise that the Jewish shops it be vandalised. There were Nazis

:38:45.:38:55.
:38:55.:38:55.

standing around in uniform. Big smears all over the wall saying

:38:56.:39:02.

"die Jews" and so forth. That was Crystal Night, it was from then on

:39:02.:39:10.

in that the children's transport started.

:39:10.:39:15.

The most emotional thing I can remember was when we had to go to

:39:15.:39:22.

the railway station. It was at night as well. Because I don't

:39:22.:39:25.

think they wanted the population to know what they were doing. What was

:39:25.:39:35.
:39:35.:39:37.

happening. Of course all these happening. Of course all these

:39:37.:39:44.

parents and children it was very hard. I mean I remember my father

:39:44.:39:48.

telling me that I would like it in England because I would be able to

:39:48.:39:53.

ride the horses and things like that. Oh dear, the reality wasn't

:39:53.:40:03.
:40:03.:40:08.

like that at all. We always talk about the past when

:40:08.:40:14.

we are together, don't we. I still remember you ringing -- wringing

:40:14.:40:19.

that chicken's neck. Really, how old was I then. You were little.I

:40:19.:40:25.

think I remember being with Gerty, because she was older and I think I

:40:25.:40:31.

stuck, I was just with her. But I do remember the train stopping and

:40:31.:40:41.
:40:41.:40:42.

people coming in and giving us a sweet drink. And then we carried on

:40:42.:40:46.

I cried, you know, and I let it go, one of the helpers on the journey

:40:46.:40:53.

said don't do that, you will set the younger ones off. When I

:40:53.:40:57.

arrived at Liverpool Street, one of my uncles came to meet us, because

:40:57.:41:06.

he was already in England. And he then took us to spend the night in

:41:06.:41:13.

London. And the following day we went to the first foster home in

:41:13.:41:18.

Hinkley in Leicestershire. Eve was given a bath, she wouldn't let them

:41:18.:41:25.

take her until I was in the bathroom with her. But after that I

:41:25.:41:33.

think they put her to bed and I don't remember a night when I

:41:33.:41:43.
:41:43.:41:44.

didn't cry. I was home sick from age 12 till goodness knows when. It

:41:44.:41:50.

was a feeling you carried about with you.

:41:50.:41:59.

I think the whole atmosphere, I mean, it saved my life, of course,

:41:59.:42:07.

but it wasn't the house for children. Really in a way I was a

:42:07.:42:15.

maid, you know. I always remember talking to these little wood things

:42:15.:42:21.

that crawled along when I was polishing the floor. I sort of made

:42:21.:42:30.

friend with them! I remember at one point a card coming from my parents,

:42:30.:42:37.

I remember rushing down the stairs and I remember then being quite

:42:38.:42:47.
:42:48.:42:51.

emotional. I will show you one of the books

:42:51.:42:56.

that I was talking about that my father actually left me. It is The

:42:56.:43:00.

Pentagon Building, five books of Moses, you can see it is rather

:43:00.:43:06.

worn. I was in a hospital in Turner's Green, I'm not sure how I

:43:06.:43:13.

learned the language, and I must have, adapting to living with 50

:43:13.:43:19.

youngsters up to the age of 15, 16. I'm told I was the youngest at that

:43:19.:43:25.

age. Learning to play games with them. Learning to be a youngster in

:43:25.:43:33.

a new country and trying to adapt myself.

:43:33.:43:39.

I remember being taken by the school to a play in the West End.

:43:39.:43:43.

It was some pantomime I think, it was in the middle of the play that

:43:43.:43:48.

I was sitting there with all the other students when I suddenly said

:43:48.:43:56.

to myself, I'm an orphan. I suddenly realised it then. I

:43:56.:44:00.

understood that the chances of my parents still being alive after

:44:00.:44:07.

what I had heard were minimal. It was just I suddenly came to the

:44:07.:44:17.
:44:17.:44:18.

realise of the fact, to face it boy, you are an orphan.

:44:18.:44:22.

Any other suggestion? A better place. I go out to schools to teach

:44:23.:44:26.

about Kindertransport, for a number of reasons. One is that the story

:44:26.:44:32.

of the past is important to the future. To go out I need to teach

:44:32.:44:37.

and to talk about it and not just to let the children read in the

:44:37.:44:42.

book about it, but rather to meet somebody who came through, at least

:44:42.:44:49.

on the kinder transport. -- Kindertransport. So that they too

:44:49.:44:55.

have a much better understanding. We begin the commemorations and

:44:55.:45:00.

celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the Kindertransport.

:45:00.:45:05.

The important message is that, about the Kindertransport of what

:45:05.:45:10.

it means and what it was and relating it to the background of

:45:10.:45:20.
:45:20.:45:24.

the issue of the Holocaust. It will be remembered, especially by the

:45:24.:45:34.
:45:34.:45:35.

Jewish nation. But anybody else I don't know? A lot of people think

:45:36.:45:41.

we are milking it. That it's too much, it should be forgotten. But

:45:41.:45:46.

the thing is it is not forgotten because it is happening to

:45:46.:45:56.
:45:56.:45:58.

communities as well, other societies. We experienced too much

:45:58.:46:07.

too soon. That is probably the epitaph of our youth. Rembering the

:46:07.:46:11.

Kindertransport. That is it for us from tonight, I will be back

:46:11.:46:15.

tomorrow. We leave you with gridlock and fireworks in Gaza,

:46:15.:46:19.

Stephen Lawrence's father on accusations of police smears. Why are Brazilians protesting? The ex-head of the CIA on Snowden. The children saved from the Nazis.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS