24/06/2013 Newsnight


Stephen Lawrence's father on accusations of police smears. Why are Brazilians protesting? The ex-head of the CIA on Snowden. The children saved from the Nazis.

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A devastating blow, Stephen Lawrence's father gives us his


reings and r action to claims that the police tried to smear his


family. I want a public inquiry, a full public inquiry into all the


stuff that was happening during the time of my son's death right back


up until now. I want everything to be revealed. An undercover cop says


he was asked to find dirt on the Lawrence family and help discredit


campaigners. How could this happen? We will hear tonight from an


activist who knew the undercover police concerned, the Lawrence


family lawyer and a former undercover Met family officer.


Brazil. Protest leaders meet the President, we are in Rio to find


out who they are and what they want? We want healthy, better


education. We want a country free of corruption. The plane from


Moscow took off to Havana full of journalist, but without the man who


exposed the secret world of NSA and GCHQ. Where is Edward Snowdon. We


will speak to Mark Urban and the former head of the NSA.


And The Dark Knight? There were signs saying "die Jews".


Rifkind mission brought -- the Kindertransport brought thousands


out of Nazi Germany to Britain. We will hear their stories.


Good evening there is nobody to peace for the Lawrence familiarly,


just more anger and dismay. 20 years after Stephen Lawrence's


murder, a former undercover police officers claims he was sent out by


chiefs at Scotland Yard to try to dish the dirt, to discredit the


Lawrence's and the family's campaign for justice. He came up


with nothing, and today the Prime Minister described the allegations


as horrific and pledged today get the truth out. The allegations


revealed by Channel 4's Dispatches and the Guardian are to be the


subject of two existing inquiries into police activities. But not as


Neville Lawrence is demanding, a public inquiry.


First we have this. Two decades ago black teenager Stephen Lawrence was


stabbed to death in an unprovoked attack. It took 18 years to


successfully convict two men. An inquiry later found the process had


been dogged by institutional racism. But this morning a long shadow


stretched longer still. It was alleged that as Stephen's family


and friends grieved the policemen went undercover amongst them.


wanted any intelligence that could have smeared the campaign, yes,


there is this general remit. So had I, through my circles, come up with


something along the lines of the family were political activists, if


somebody in the family was involved in demonstrations. Drug dealers?


Anything. What they would have done with the intelligence I can't call


it, but that is our remit. Not just for them, that is always our remit


when we are out there. After the vixs last year of two men for


lawyer -- convictions last year of two men or the murder, there was an


independent review ordered that police corruption shielded the


killers of Stephen Lawrence. Today the Prime Minister was also quick


to respond. This is worrying, that is why two investigations, one of


them being led by the Chief Constable of another police force


are under way. And the Home Secretary is acting swiftly to make


sure that these investigations cover all of the potential


allegations and we get to the bottom of this as rapidly as


possible. After undercover police officer Mark Kennedy was revealed


to have spent years infiltrating environmental groups, an inquiry


then recommended greater scrutiny and management of undercover


operations. Now two inquiries will look at these fresh revelations. An


on going one into the met police's special demonstrations squad, or


SDS, Operation Herne, it is a more general look into undercover


policing. It is overseen by Mick Creedon, Chief Constable of


Derbyshire. Barrister Mark Ellison is also already investigating


allegations of corruption in the original Lawrence investigation. He


will now have access to anything discovered about SDS involvement.


In fact there is about 12-15 inquiries and reviews happening at


the moment within the Met and outside, into undercover policing.


But no-one inquiry is actually looking at the whole thing of every


aspect. What Theresa May announced today doesn't go far enough. The


fact is we don't know if this is still happening, it is not really


good enough that the Met investigates itself on something


this serious. Honestly, it worries me that it could still be happening.


Jenny Jones is joined by the former Director of Public Prosecutions.


Chief Constable Creedon, who is conducting one of the


investigations into these matters, he's a police officer, obviously he


said that actually the police are the best people to investigate the


police. Well, no, they are not. Just as barristers are not the best


people to investigate barristers or doctors are not the best people to


investigate doctors, we need independents, we need some distance


from what went on. We need the scrutiny of a judicial figure


considering the material in public, issuing a considered report with


findings and recommendations. Politicians of all sides have been


shocked by these revelations. But the Government thinks that the time


isn't right for a full scale public independent inquiry. Their dilemma


is how to balance that decision with also reacting sufficiently to


the public outcry. And over time their decision may come under


pressure. Many in Westminster believe this morning's revelations


are just the start of it. The undercover policeman alleged he


had other targets, including Lawrence's best friend, Duwayne


Brooks, who was with him on the night he died. Francis said he


uncovered evidence to have Brooks arrested and charged with criminal


damage. But the case of thrown out by a judge as an abuse of the legal


process. Myself and another SDS officer went


through the material we had, the media we had, and between us we had


identified him participating in some criminality, perceived


criminality. For many politicians the allegations don't fall into a


vacuum, but they reenforce fears in some communities. It feeds


perceptions, particularly among young people that the attitude the


police have towards ethnic minorities in this country. The


police only work through consent, it is so important they have the


trust of all the communities that make up this great city in order to


do their job properly. Anything that damages the trust is dangerous


for all Londoners for the ability of the police to do a good job for


you. It has been damaged today?It is difficult to think of how the


response that the Lawrence family received from the police could have


been any further from the response that they were entitled to expect


when their son was brutally murdered on the streets of this


city. Tonight the Lawrence family re-examined the events of 20 years


a tomorrow more allegations in the Guardian. But Scotland Yard also


went under cover in political groups.


Earlier today I spoke to Stephen's father, Neville, who is in Jamaica.


What do you make of Peter Francis's revelations? It is a devastating


blow to my confidence, thinking that we have been through all of


this before. We are had he hands of all the upheaval that has


concerneded our lives for the past 20 years. Does it surprise you that


the police were apparently looking for dirt on your family? I knew in


the early days they were doing it. I didn't know the extent of what


they were doing. Your former wife, Doreen, said she


remembers thinking something strange was happening, because


Special Branch wanted the names of all the people that came to pay


their respects. What happened? had a blue book that we recorded


the names of the people in the house every day. They wanted to see


this book. We couldn't understand why they wanted to see the names of


people who had come from as far as Birmingham to support us in our


hour of need. We wouldn't give it to them. You didn't give them the


book? No, we didn't. Because we couldn't see what connection the


people that were in the house who came to support us had with the


murder of hour son. So we refused to give them the book. Were you


aware they were trying to collect and collate the information in


another way? The fact that they were saying that we were


investigating, we were interrupting the investigation was another


things that made us suspicious. We couldn't see how an ordinary family,


miles away from the investigation was interfering in the


investigation. Can you tell me, you think that the police were saying


that you were interfering with the investigation? Yeah, they kept


saying that the family of interfering with the investigation.


And we couldn't see how they were doing that. Because we were doing


everything possible to try to help with the investigation. Did you


actually have trust in the police at that time? Although we didn't


have any trust in the police, we thought that the fact that we had


so many public people and focus on them, even if we weren't really


satisfied with what they were doing, we thought by the attention that


the family had focused on them and from all the organisations that


were involved, that they would do the right thing. Are you surs


priced that the police held this back from the William Macpherson


inquiry? I'm surprised, but I'm also really, what you say, I was


getting to the stage where I was starting to feel as if they had


done something wrong, they had apologised, so we can move on from


there. And now 20 years later, to hear something like this. Does it


make you angry? It has made me really, really angry. I'm starting


to think what do I do now. Do I still try and have a kind of a


relationship with these people are just cut ties with them completely?


What do you want to happen now, Neville? I want a public inquiry, I


want a full public inquiry into all the stuff that was happening during


the time of my son's death, right back up until now. I want


everything to be revealed so we don't have to have another year


from now I don't want to hear anything else that comes out, any


secrets. Do you think that you might take legal action? Well I'm


talking to my lawyers now, because I feel this is a intrusion into my


private life. Do you now recall conversations


where you thought perhaps at the time it was innocent with the


police, but you now realise they were fishing? Well from the first


investigation, and all the fiasco that was happening, and all the


things that were said, all the papers had gone missing, I started


to doubt these people investigating the crime. What option do I have, I


can't investigate the crime myself, the family couldn't do that, we had


to rely on whosoever they sent to do it. Is there anything you want


to say that I didn't ask you? I'm now four-and-a-half, nearly


5,000 miles away from all my family, my daughter, my son, my grand kids,


and for me to be dealing with something like this by myself is


not very easy. Normally when there is a problem I'm in London and I'm


surrounded by my solicitor, my friend and everybody who knows


about the case. In Jamaica I have got nothing like that to help me


with it. I have to be dealing with this by myself.


Thank you very much indeed. right then.


With me now is a member of the anti-racist group apparently


infiltrated by undercover police. A former undercover policeman, Peter


Bleksley, and Imran Khan, the policor representing Stephen


Lawrence's mother, Doreen. Good evening all of you. Imran Khan, you


heard Neville Lawrence saying there that he thought because there was


so much interest in the case that the police would do the right thing.


Now we have the allegations by Peter Francis that he came under


pressure to dish the dirt, are you surprised? I should be surprised


but I'm not sur pryed but because of the way the Met Police have been


treating the family from day one. I was there within days of the murder


happening, we saw police officers, and family liaison officers coming


into the house and asking questions about who was there rather than


going on to the streets. Asking for the blue book? Asking who was


coming in and what they were coming for. It looked from the family's


perspective that they were under the microscope when some how the


killer was within the midst. Doreen said the killer of white and those


who supported her were black, why look inside the house. You can see


the impact on Neville, and I know you still act for Doreen, does she


want an independent inquiry? does, the inquiry announced by the


Prime Minister is not sufficient. We know from the undercover police


officers he wanted the evidence to come out and the police stopped


that. How can we trust the police and Mark Ellison doing things


behind closed doors. At the moment she's pausing because she has asked


me to write a letter to the commissioner with 13 key questions


to be asked. If those questions are satisfactory, and if there is an


apology, perhaps we don't need that inquiry. I'm sure you don't have


the 13 questions off pat, but can you give us an idea? Who gave the


intrusion, who gave the orders for questions asked during the inquiry,


and what was done with it. The officer said nothing was found.


What was the motive? Exactly.Peter Francis who appeared in the


Dispatches programme tonight, he was known to you? That's right.So


he infiltrated your group? Yeah. Explain what happened? We were very


active, in fact we set up a campaign in 19887 in the Bexley and


Greenwich area, very close to where Stephen was murdered because the


BNP had set up their head quarter, we had done a the lot of work


campaigning against racism and the BNP, warning the politicians at the


time they were a danger in our community. We did a lot of work. We


were organising very large protests, when Stephen was murdered we


organised a big demonstration in the community. And Peter Francis


came in soon after the murder? is when he came in. What did he do


within the group? He have driving people around. He was dishing out


leaflets. Somebody said he was very good at putting placards together,


he put a lot of them together. One of the things that makes some


members of our group now think well actually if somebody was going to


be spying on us it was probably him was that he always wanted to egg


people on to do things that our group weren't interested in. We


were a large democratic peaceful. He was largely thinking there were


militants and troublemakers around at that time? I think probably so.


On the fringes of your group? think there is big questions that


need to be asked about a policeman coming into an organisation and


trying to egg people on to take part in criminal activity which we


opposed. He would deny he did that. Peter Bleksley, on the broader


point about, as it were, egging people on, we know from some of the


other inquiries that undercover police officers were acting in a


more high-profile roles? And acting as agent provoke ters, and inciting


people to do things they shouldn't do. On this question of dishing the


dirt on the Lawrence family. Is it possible the special demonstration


squad, of which Peter Francis was a member, was going rogue over the


Lawrence family in some way, badge of honour, or was it being signed


off? I was working undercover at this time in 1993, into serious and


organised crime. Did you know anything about the Lawrence


investigation by undercover policing? I knew nothing about that


or the existence of the special demonstration squad. Our unit was


separate. Is it conceivable that the unit trying to find stuff out


about the Lawrence family was rogue or likely to be signed off? I think


it is completely inconceivable that these officers were acting off


their own bat. Lord Condon said he had no knowledge, he neither signed


off it off or had had knew anything about it. Not necessarily signed


off to the officer of the Met? we were operating in serious orgd


crime, we would need the authority of a Deputy Assistant Commissioner


for every organisation. The reports seeking the permissions to act


undercover would work up through the chain of command. Many senior


officers would be aware of what we were trying to do. The thing is,


when you hear about that, it is an impingement on democracy?


Completely, I don't buy this that Lord Condon didn't know. I know he


says he didn't. But if he didn't how is it that officers were acting


with complete impunity. The boss take the hit? Absolutely, Sir fir


Macpherson, very much from the army -- William Macpherson, very much


from the army background, he said you don't blame the foot soldiers


but those who gave the orders. If it goes all the way to Deputy


Assistant Commissioner there must be some memos that passed through


his office. He has some questions to answer. He was in charge when


the inquiry took place. Was he at fault? The Guardian's front page


tomorrow, another exclusive about Scotland Yard deploying undercover


officers in political groups that sought to uncover corruption in the


Metropolitan Police and campaign for justice for people dying in


custody. This is why we need a thorough


going inquiry. It is not good enough what we have at the moment,


which is the police investigating themselves, or an inquiry which has


been held in closed court. Secret court. We need protestors,


environmental campaigners, trade unionists who have also been spyed


on and blacklisted and all sorts of things. We need a thorough on going


inquiry. I think this is not just a rogue unit or rogue individual. I


think this is policy. There has been a campaign over recent years


in this country to criminalise protestors. That's what the


kettleing has been all about. That is why we need a real thorough


inquiry. Is iten an apault on democracy? It is --Is it an


assault on knockcy? Yes, and the judge has said so with the case of


Mark Kennedy, that Intelligence Unit that was a successor to the


SDS. A judge commented that they were operating against decent


people wanting to express their lawful right to protest. That is


not what undercover policing is about.


When they protest in Brazil it is commended. But when we protest here


we are criminals and we have this sort of surveillance, it is an


attack on our democratic rights. Indeed Brazil's President, Dilma


Rousseff, is having her first meeting about now with mbs of the


protest movement who started the demonstration -- members of the


protest movement that started the demonstrations that engulfed the


country. In the beginning it was bus fares in Sao Paulo, that


exploded in riots in city after city, with political loader


struggling to work out what exactly was going on. We are in Rio to find


out what those who took to the streets in their hundreds of


Anger in a place renowned for relaxation. The Government doesn't


respect our rights. On Rio's Copacabana Beach, they are


denouncing the way their country is run. All over BR still the


education is really, really -- Brazil, the education is really,


really bad, the schools, the hospitals. We are tired of hearing


that our country is only carnival, football and that's not true.


These are educated, overwhelmingly middle-class Brazilians. Their fury


long pent-up has astonished their rulers.


Vito Fernades is typical of those who have taken to the streets all


over Brazil. He's a new low- qualified pharmacist, working in a


Government laboratory. He has -- newly qualified pharmacist, working


in a Government laboratory. He has had opportunities but others


haven't? We want better, healthy better education, and we want a


country free of corruption. This is really an important event.


How important is this event? This is huge, they have never done


anything, and now we are trying to change and make a better place to


live. He is marching against a left-wing


Government that boasts it has pulled tens of millions out of


poverty, made them more like the people in this crowd. So has the


state, to some extent, become a victim of its own success.


Salvo Brazil. Rapid development has turned a once


poor nation into the world's seventh-biggest economy. Its


inequalities are now more evident than ever. For most of the last ten


years Brazil has been on the up and up. Unemployment is at a record low,


the number of university students has doubled, but as the economy has


grown so have expectations. And the boom has thrown the sorry state of


the country's public serves into ever sharper relief.


Hosting the football World Cup next year in Rio's rebuilt Maracana


Stadium, and others around the country was intended as a crowning


moment for the new Brazil. But for young people the competition and


the �9 billion price tag has merely added to the feel-bad factor.


we won everybody was really happen and celebrating it all around. It


was like a wave. What went wrong, why are people no longer happy?


ends up costing more and more to build these World Cup stadium. We


saw that a lot of money that they didn't say would be involved


started to be involved. And a lot of money that wasn't invested in


education and health. So people start saying come on there is


something wrong in it. We need to do something.


President Dilma Rousseff had record high approval rates months ago.


This morning she promised to fight corruption and spend more on public


transport and he hadcation. For the protestors it was all too vague.


Vito Fernades is taking me to his house in a lower middle-class


suburb, where most people in recent years have had more to spend.


His mother Clara, who teaches physical education, cooks mainly at


weekends. On other days the family has a home help to do it. They have


got a new TV, a new microwave, a new car. But they are not happy.


Economic growth has slowed and inflation is up, and what use is


money in your pocket if services are still third rate. TRANSLATION:


Taxes are rising, we pay one tax after the other. People are happier


because they can buy more, but they are losing in other areas,


education is terrible. A lot of people can now afford to have


insurance, but the quality of the private system is as bad as the


public system. The health system is in chaos. It is an illusion we are


better off. If you think back to how, let as


say, your family was ten years ago, 20 years ago, hasn't it got more


things now than it used to have? I'm not fighting for my family, I'm


fighting for the whole population. We see a lot of people don't have


access to basic education. There is no quality in the education


provided. It is not that I don't have education but a lot of people


don't have. We want everybody to have access to this. You are not


fighting for yourselves but other people? Yeah, for the country.It


is hard to believe all this started over a 6p increase in bus fares


that has now been recinded any way. Now we are protesting about far


bigger issues, including a new law that would limit corruption


investigations. There is no good in reminding these people that


Brazilians can use the ballot box to protest. No healthcare, no jobs,


no justice, what do you want? is a democracy, why not vote for


change? That is why we are here. I vote and I always lose. S this is


the street where the Governor of Rio lives, the crowd are demanding


to be let through, but the police won't let them. The horizontal


nature of the protests, following others in Turkey, and elsewhere, is


a source of strength and weakness. This man, an actor, admits he


helped organise the protest through social media. But unsis he has no


political ambitions. Insists he has no political ambitions. Without a


leader or ideas won't this movement stop? People are saying that, but


this has happened for four weeks without a leadership. It is getting


bigger and bigger and bigger. They say they don't know what they want,


but we know what we don't want. is not clear what you want, you


want too many things at once? Brazil is under an ocean of


corruption and robbery and bad politics.


Another bigger march is planned in Rio tonight. For now the


authorities seem to be waiting and hoping the wave of anger will


eventually subside? It is difficult for the Government to respond to a


movement without leaders and with so many different demands. But it


may also be difficult for the movement itself to maintain


momentum. But whatever it achieves it is a


reminder that ref lugs usually spring from rising expectations and


a warning that economic growth and conventional democracy don't


guarantee contentment. The intelligence whistleblower,


Edward Snowdon, seems to have given America and the the world's press


the slip. While many thought he was in America, Liverpool Care Pathway


was left warning that if Russia and chine ignore the rule not to allow


him to travel there would be issues. While some say he's holed up at


Sheremetyevo Airport, nobody can be entirely sure. Where is he? Moscow


is the US official version of this. His supporters in Wikileaks say


he's in a place of safety. We know what he did, he got on a plane in


Hong Kong yesterday and flew to Moscow. That seems clear he was


tipped off in Hong Kong by people that it was time to go. From there


he was booked on a flight to Havana, which numerous journalists felt


they were enterprising and got themselves on to the same flight


this morning. But lo and behold when they went to seat 17 to see


him and the Wikileaks lawyer who trapped with him, there was --


travelled with him, there was nobody sitting in the seats.


Havana flight may have been a ruse or he may have made other


arrangements, some say Venezuela. The most likely destination would


be Ecuador, which says it has received an asylum application from


him and is considering it. It seems Ecuador provided him with the


travel document on which he left Hong Kong, because his US passport


had been cancelled. The Americans are aggregating, but what can they


actually do -- agitating, but what can they actually do to get Himba


back -- back -- him back? They are using that language, Liverpool Care


Pathway decribing him as a man who betrayed his country, -- John Kerry


decribing him as a man who betrayed his country. They say they are


putting diplomatic pressure on all those involved. In this context


must mean Russia, Ecuador, to arrest and deport him as soon as


possible. They have been indulging in recriminations against the


people in Hong Kong, who they say, ignored an arrest warrant, and the


fact that his passport had been cancelled to allow him to travel.


This today from the White House. We are just not buying that this


was a technical decision by a Hong Kong immigration official. This was


a tkhib rate choice by the Government to release -- deliberate


choice by the Government to release a fugutive, despite an arrest


warrant, that Haslem a neglect -- has a negative impact on the US-


China relationship. Is he safe? is conceivable a country like


Russia may decide it is in their interest to hold him or send him to


the States. Joining me live from Washington is


ambassador wools wools wools, former head of the C -- James


Woolsey, and former head of the CIA. This is pretty embarrassing for


America, isn't it? You have lost him? Yes, I think so, it started


being embarrassing some time ago. This administration has had a habit


of drawing a line in the sand and forgetting about it. Or saying that


something is unacceptable and that accepting it, or telling Putin


indirectly that they willable able to offer more concessions after --


will be able to offer more concessions once President Obama


was elected over an open microphone. They have put themselves in a


situation that the Russian find it rather easy to push this


administration around. And the Equadorians are learning from the


Russians. You say this as a former adviser of


President Clinton. If you were advising President Obama now, what


would you say to do, there is no point in rattling a sabre if you


are not going to do anything about it? Well, I think you have to start


being serious about what you say. And this administration has not


given the impression that when it draws and conclusion and says this


far and no further that it really means it. It has given the


impression that it is sort of kind of means it sometimes. That is not


effective. You can't work that way. Yeah, but you are speaking quite


plainly, so speak more plainly, tell me what you think America can


possibly do. What can they do, can they expel the Chinese and Russian


ambassador, what can they do? are a number of things that we have


going on with the Russians, for example, the Russians have worked


very hard to keep us from deploying ballistic missiles as a defence in


Europe to help protect Europe and the like. We always give these


Russian efforts to shut down our ability to improve our defences and


the rest a very serious "oh yes we have to work together" speil. That


is the wrong kind of approach. were going to suggest that one way


of doing this is saying if you do not hold on to Edward Snowdon and


hand him over. Assuming he's not in South America, we will make sure we


can put patriot missiles in Europe? I don't think that, those are


defensive systems. I don't think that kind of sort of tantrum works.


You have to seriously and fundamentally change the way you


interact with states like Russia and China. It will take some time.


It has been going in the wrong direction for at least five years.


Do you accept that if Edward Snowdon gets to South America the


game is up. You will not get him back? It is unlikely that we would


get him back soon. But Government as change and South America and


some of the Governments are left- wing and didn't used to be, some


have migrated one direction and back again. Things can change. But


I think persistence and firmness with those Governments. Ecuador


depends on us, the United States, for about half of the export market.


We could start cutting back on that rather easily and quickly.


course there are countries who believe who have been on the end of


the surveillance who believe what Edward Snowdon d was a -- did was a


block to democracy? There are not those who have been on -- a blow to


democracy? There are those who have not been dealt a blow by this. If


they are sheltering terrorist then they have to. There is nothing new


about that. What is new and is sort of strangely new is that although


the United States has had a programme for well over 30 years,


sanctioned by the Supreme Court, that let our Government keep track


on what is on the outside of first class mail envelope, but not the up


side. This is essentially what has been going on now, essentially


doing the same thing with respect to telephone message, not getting


into the conversation itself but rather into what number was dialed


and what number it was dialed from. It turns out that can be very


helpful. We have stopped something approaching 50 terrorist attack,


according to the FBI by utilising some of the loose technologies with


called big data. By stopping that, by interfering with that, these


people like Snowdon are putting a serious risk on a lot of people's


lives. Some may disagree. Thank you for joining you. It is 75 years


since the British Government sanctioned a mission to bring


Jewish children into the UK in the wake of the devastation of Crystal


Night, in Germany and Austria. In what one former child refugee said


was an exceptional act of rescue. 10,000 children were put on


transport by their parents desperate to get them to safety.


Acts of commemoration are taking place this week. As survivors grow


old, how should their stories be remembered by younger generations.


Newsnight met four of them. We arrived here disorientated,


depressed. I wrote in a book that we entered the train in our home


town as children and left the train as adults. Because from here on we


were responsible for our own lives for the rest of our lives.


I slept through the actual night and got up in the morning to go to


school and as I walked on to the street there were glass all over


the street, there were crowds on the street, and I realised that


something very sensational had happened. And I began to slowly


realise that the Jewish shops it be vandalised. There were Nazis


standing around in uniform. Big smears all over the wall saying


"die Jews" and so forth. That was Crystal Night, it was from then on


in that the children's transport started.


The most emotional thing I can remember was when we had to go to


the railway station. It was at night as well. Because I don't


think they wanted the population to know what they were doing. What was


happening. Of course all these happening. Of course all these


parents and children it was very hard. I mean I remember my father


telling me that I would like it in England because I would be able to


ride the horses and things like that. Oh dear, the reality wasn't


like that at all. We always talk about the past when


we are together, don't we. I still remember you ringing -- wringing


that chicken's neck. Really, how old was I then. You were little.I


think I remember being with Gerty, because she was older and I think I


stuck, I was just with her. But I do remember the train stopping and


people coming in and giving us a sweet drink. And then we carried on


I cried, you know, and I let it go, one of the helpers on the journey


said don't do that, you will set the younger ones off. When I


arrived at Liverpool Street, one of my uncles came to meet us, because


he was already in England. And he then took us to spend the night in


London. And the following day we went to the first foster home in


Hinkley in Leicestershire. Eve was given a bath, she wouldn't let them


take her until I was in the bathroom with her. But after that I


think they put her to bed and I don't remember a night when I


didn't cry. I was home sick from age 12 till goodness knows when. It


was a feeling you carried about with you.


I think the whole atmosphere, I mean, it saved my life, of course,


but it wasn't the house for children. Really in a way I was a


maid, you know. I always remember talking to these little wood things


that crawled along when I was polishing the floor. I sort of made


friend with them! I remember at one point a card coming from my parents,


I remember rushing down the stairs and I remember then being quite


emotional. I will show you one of the books


that I was talking about that my father actually left me. It is The


Pentagon Building, five books of Moses, you can see it is rather


worn. I was in a hospital in Turner's Green, I'm not sure how I


learned the language, and I must have, adapting to living with 50


youngsters up to the age of 15, 16. I'm told I was the youngest at that


age. Learning to play games with them. Learning to be a youngster in


a new country and trying to adapt myself.


I remember being taken by the school to a play in the West End.


It was some pantomime I think, it was in the middle of the play that


I was sitting there with all the other students when I suddenly said


to myself, I'm an orphan. I suddenly realised it then. I


understood that the chances of my parents still being alive after


what I had heard were minimal. It was just I suddenly came to the


realise of the fact, to face it boy, you are an orphan.


Any other suggestion? A better place. I go out to schools to teach


about Kindertransport, for a number of reasons. One is that the story


of the past is important to the future. To go out I need to teach


and to talk about it and not just to let the children read in the


book about it, but rather to meet somebody who came through, at least


on the kinder transport. -- Kindertransport. So that they too


have a much better understanding. We begin the commemorations and


celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the Kindertransport.


The important message is that, about the Kindertransport of what


it means and what it was and relating it to the background of


the issue of the Holocaust. It will be remembered, especially by the


Jewish nation. But anybody else I don't know? A lot of people think


we are milking it. That it's too much, it should be forgotten. But


the thing is it is not forgotten because it is happening to


communities as well, other societies. We experienced too much


too soon. That is probably the epitaph of our youth. Rembering the


Kindertransport. That is it for us from tonight, I will be back


tomorrow. We leave you with gridlock and fireworks in Gaza,


Stephen Lawrence's father on accusations of police smears. Why are Brazilians protesting? The ex-head of the CIA on Snowden. The children saved from the Nazis.

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