21/06/2013 Newsnight


21/06/2013

Kirsty Wark has the latest on the riots in Brazil, explores why British Intelligence are gathering our raw internet data and asks the Bond Quartet if beauty sells classical music.


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Transcript


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Will Brazil be engulfed by protests this weekend. Lauded as an economic

:00:13.:00:17.

success with an apparently popular and long-serving left-wing

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Government. Last night more than a million people took to the streets,

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with bigger demonstrations promised to come, where will it end?

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Also tonight our very own spy agency, GCHQ, is reported to be

:00:29.:00:32.

secretly trawling the Internet and holding massive amounts of our

:00:32.:00:36.

personal data. It is not illegal, but should it be?

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This, playing and talking live in the studio the Bond quartet, is

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their success down to their beauty or classical musical skills and

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does it matter either way? Good evening, Brazil's President

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emerged from an emergency cabinet meeting today without any message

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or apparent plan to quell the protests that have snowballed to

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such an extent that it was said last night more than a million

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people were on the streets in more many cities. A rise in bus fares

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and the hosting of World Cup and the Olympics, may not be the

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circumstances to aggregate the state of the country, but it

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appears to be what's happening. Now how will the Government react for

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the protests planned for the weekend.

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First of all, there was no apparent message from the cabinet meeting,

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are you hearing anything now? we have been told within the last

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couple of hours that President Dilma Rousseff is preparing to

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address the nation. A lot of people were asking on social networks

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today and last night at the peak of the violence where is our President.

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It is clear she is now going to speak to the nation, perhaps as

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soon as tonight, perhaps within the next few days. I think it will be

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the most critical broadcast of her presidency, a million people more

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on the streets of many Brazilian cities, a real test of the

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Government. Talking to a presidential spokesman, there was a

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wounded talk, they talked about the 40 million lifted out of poverty in

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recent years, the expansion of the health and education system. They

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say they don't disagree with the demonstrators, they want to talk to

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them. When the protestors were originally talking about the

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transport fares, those increases were immediately reversed. What

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will the President have to say in this message, would she have to

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show a change of policy, all this money going to the World Cup that

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apparently should be going to education, the protestors say,

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would she have to do something concrete to stop the protestors in

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their tracks? This is part of the challenge. I'm not entirely

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convinced the Government knows what to say. In talking to them they get

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a sense of surprise and shock and even alarm. One of the most

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striking images last night was of the demonstrators at the front of

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the Foreign Ministry, this landmark building in the sent of the capital,

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starting a fire. I think ministers were visibly shaken by that. Their

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challenge is the fact the movement is so diverse and people are

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raising so many concerns. They are talking about tax issues, they are

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talking about spending on education and health. They are talk about the

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vast cost of hosting the World Cup and the Olympics, and with so many

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issues it is difficult to know what the President can say beyond

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offering talks to try to understand better. They are saying to us

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tonight part of their difficulty is that this is a moment without a

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structure and without a clear leadership, who do we talk to.

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What is behind these protests and is it part of a bigger global

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phenomenon? Our Economics Editor Paul Mason reports.

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This is what its like when a million people decide economic

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growth is not enough. The streets of Rio last night proved that this

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:04:04.:04:05.

has now gone way beyond a protest over bus fares.

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There was sporadic violence. The police here use a mixture of gas,

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stun grenades and plastic bullets. The protestors a mixture of fire

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and moral force. And in places this week the strains on law enforcement

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have shown. Here a riot cop refuses orders and is sent packing by his

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commander. Everywhere the symbolism of a protest led by educated youth.

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Irony, tolerance, the national flag and the football shirt. How did a

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movement over bus fares escalate to this, a protest poster says it all.

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A city of 11 million people with a distinctly minimalise underground

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railway map. -- minimalist underground railway

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map. This was the symbol of skewed priorities, Brazil instead had

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spent billions of stadiums and infrastructure to host the World

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Cup. And when people protested a familiar pattern emerged.

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started to get bigger when we started seeing that the police were

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really being aggressive to the protestors. Then there was this

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feeling of solidarity like this can't be happening, we have to have

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the freedom to express ourselves. It had been simplering for months

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if you knew where to look -- simplering for months if you knew

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where to look. Here a cup match amid the chaos has seen slum

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clearance on the perimeter. Overall 170,000 people will be affected by

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things like this. To make next year's World Cup happen the

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Government is spending $16 billion, not far short of the country's

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annual education budget. We are talking about a huge urban crisis

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in every city in Brazil. The policies are made for few, there is

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huge profit on for instance estate speculation. The World Cup issue is

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also an urban issue. Many of the works and investments being done

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for the World Cup are very unequal, they are, for instance, expeling

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lots of people from their homes. There is about 170,000 people who

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have been threatened or are under threat of losing their homes

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because they live around the Stadio, and the big infra-- Stadio, and the

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big infrastructure investments happening around the stadiums.

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Brazil is among the four big countries, the BRIC, that made the

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term "Third World" go out of fashion. Rapid growth has pulled 36

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million people into the middle- class. Even the technical measure

:06:52.:07:02.
:07:02.:07:02.

of inequality is falling. Now inflation is rising, above 6%. If

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the protests started on the left and the educatedout, it is now

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drawing in the trade unions and people from the slums. Its focus

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has turned to corruption, cronyism and the political elite, full stop.

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The city of Sao Paulo the activists are trying to call it off. It has

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now got completely blurred, people yesterday burned flags of all the

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party, some of them were absolutely against any party. And that's why

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the left-wing moreed traditional movements have decided not to

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protest any more here in Sao Paulo. Including the free press movement

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have said their demand was met and they are not going to protest any

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more. But in mass revolts things will get

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out of hand. Brazil's President, a former Marxist guerrilla has

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promised to address the nation soon. For now she's reliant on force,

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concessions and a U-turn by activists to make this particular

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carnival go away. Paul is with me now. This danger

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that without a leadership we have anarchy and without any leadership

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you have more violence? Brazil is one of the BRIC countries, and

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three out of the four BRIC countries have now had unrest in

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the past 18 months, the Russian post electoral unrest, the Indian

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unrest following the gang rape and now this. Own in Turkey two weeks

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ago an honourary BRIC country we are seeing now the emergence across

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the rapidly developing world of a problem of young urban educated

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people who, wherever the initial spark is, whatever the initial

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problem is, they come to the streets and they express a general

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frustration with, not the economic deal they are getting, but the

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political, the freedom, the ability to express, all these minutor

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demands, relatively minor. It is a left-wing Government? It is

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democratically elected and loft wing. Its priority for ten years

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and more, even before power, has been to develop Brazil for the poor.

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These are the people who some of them used to be the poor, but they

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are the Facebookers, and people I'm interacting with on Twitter right

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now are there, their perspective on that is they want a modern country

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where they can affect things. was said within the last hour that

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it was announced that President Rousseff is going to address the

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nation as early as tomorrow. Is there anything she can actually say

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do you think that will break this down? The workers party, the PT,

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the ruling party has a massive machine. It has the kind of machine

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that, in fact, the ruler of Turkey had and on this occasion it is kind

:09:45.:09:49.

of embedded among the masses. Some of whom will be protesting. It can

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help deflate this. But what it needs to do is to be able to find

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leaders to talk to, find out what their demands are. We are pretty

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clear what they are, and then do things. And that's a challenge if

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you have never faced this kind of protest before. Thank you very much

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indeed. I'm joined by the Brazilian ambassador to the UK. It is a

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pretty sorry scene to see stun guns and teargas and so forth out there

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on the streets. When these are essentially people that have

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supported this Government? It is quite true, of course when you have

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one million people mass mobility, it creates different types of

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volatility. You don't have control of the streets? It is difficult,

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but of course we have the police there to protect the protestors

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themselves and protect property, because looters infiltrate and they

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create havoc. But we see what happened, we were just talking

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about it in Turkey. When the educated young middle-class

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disaffected are outen on the streets, they are hard to shift --

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out on the streets, they are hard to shift? Brazil is a little

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different to the scenario. We have a thorough democratic process, the

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full participation of everybody. The movement shows some people feel

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not adequately represented. We have had a news flash that the President

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will speak in two hours time, 1.00am our time. It shows the

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urgency she is addressing, we know the road to the Sao Paulo Airport

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is shut and protests are planned. Will she announce a change of

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policy? She will announce what she already annuciated. She hears and

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wants to be able to perceive the message and to see what can be done.

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If you have $16 million spent on the World Cup and people protesting

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that really is the equivalent of what is spent on education and what

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is spent on education is falling far short. What does she do, does

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she announce a big financial project? I think there is a

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volatility, there is a difusion in the message. You have to understand

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when the World Cup was announced to Brazil it was global jubilation,

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among all the people. The same thing with the Olympic Games. There

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is a volatility in this issue. Of course hosting the World Cup brings

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enormous possibilities as well. When you have something as iconic,

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for example in Turkey and Taksim Square, as initially a garden

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project, when you have favelas removed for the World Cup, it is

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those things that spark bigger things? You would if you had

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favelas being moved, that is not the case. We had stadia being built

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which got significant investments. We have significant improvement in

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transportation which is very beneficial to the population in

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general. So a number of investments were required any way. At the

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moment though the Confederation Cup is going on, which is the precursor

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to the World Cup, do you think you will get to the World Cup, will it

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still be held in Brazil? I have no doubt whatsoever. Amongst one

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million protestors the games of the Confederation Cup were held and

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very well without any individual with issues in the games themselves.

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If this was to happen next year, with the influx of people coming to

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the World Cup, that would be disastrous for BR sill, you have to

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get it sorted out -- Brazil, you have to get it sorted out? We don't

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want to control people, but we have a responsibility to incorporate

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them into the democratic process. That is what we want to do. You say

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you can't control people, when the images are flashed around on social

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media are of police controlling for their own safety, but coming up

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against rioters, for whatever reason, that does not look like a

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Government in control? Well as I said, the mobility and mass

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mobilisation generates their own volatility of that nature, this

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happens everywhere. It is important to avoid that these mass

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demonstrations don't form into looting and damaging Government or

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private property. What Paul has said and what is true, you pooled

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$36 million into the middle -- you pould36 million people into the

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middle-class, but people see high taxes and corruption in the

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Government and appalling transport system. A lot of people don't feel

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they are getting the share of the action they should get for being a

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BRIC country? Brazil is a big and developing country with many

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challenges. It is an ar aic country in many dimensions but very modern

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in other dimensions. What we are witnessing here is besides the

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traditional problems which are the central problems, incorporating

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everybody into full citizenship. We have more than problems that you

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witness everywhere, including here in Europe where you see people who

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don't feel represented, they chose to have different types of

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representation in different relations throughout the continent.

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In Brazil obviously this is happening as well. But this is a

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different characteristic of problems. It would be ironic for

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President Rousseff, who herself used to be a guerrilla, if there

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ended up being revolution in Brazil? I don't see it that way.

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First of all revolution is not really the process in Brazil. We

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are a very tolerant country and a co-operative country and diverse

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country and we pride ourselves on that. You used to have military

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coup, have you gone beyond that? Very much so, I think we have

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established two or three things that have been fundamental, the

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democratic process, a social inclusion process and an economic

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growth process. You will be listening out for the message in

:15:26.:15:36.
:15:36.:15:42.

two hours time? Certainly I will. In a moment the Bond quartet. Now

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the UK's listening post, QCHQ can tap more global e-mails, Facebook

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posts and internet traffic, including calls, than any other

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surveillance agency in the world, according to documents shown to the

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Guardian by the National Security Agency's whistleblower, Edward

:15:58.:16:05.

Snowdon. This latest revelations claims GCHQ's operation, code named

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Tempora, has been running for 18 months and the information is

:16:08.:16:12.

shared with the American NSA. If so what is the information worth and

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to whom? I'm joined by our diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Tell

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me what is it that GCHQ has been doing? Another set of revelations

:16:23.:16:30.

based on e-mails from the agency in the Guardian. E seingsly --

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essentially some years back a lot of traffic was from phone lines and

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on to fibre optic, GCHQ wanted to tap into those and they hit on the

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idea of physically tapping into the fibre optics where they enter and

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leave the UK. We know under this operation Tempora, or Project

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Tempora, by 2011 they were tapping in physically tapping into the

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infrastructure more than 200 points around the UK. Now obviously

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billions of bits of data streaming by, you can only hold it in this

:17:04.:17:09.

buffer because of the quantity of data for three days with the

:17:09.:17:13.

content phone call, e-mails, all the rest of it. After that it slips

:17:13.:17:17.

out, the metadata, the numbers called, the e-mail address, that

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kind of thing, stay in the system for 30 days then that goes too.

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Even while it is being held in that system it has to be massively

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narrowed down, there is a process of reduction based on the type of

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files, whether they have attachments all this kind of stuff

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designed to zero right in on 40,000 selectors programmed into the

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system. That could be a single person's phone number or e-mail

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address or it could be a term used in the e-mail like a name of a

:17:43.:17:45.

particular chemical used in refining drugs or anything like

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that and 31,000 of those selectors from the NSA. That is the scope of

:17:51.:17:55.

the programme that the Guardian has said it has uncovered. That is the

:17:55.:17:59.

scope, but how you are pricing is it? There is -- surprising is it?

:17:59.:18:03.

There is always a difference between capability and performance

:18:03.:18:08.

in this technical gathering programme s of intelligence. I have

:18:08.:18:14.

to admit I find it moderately surprising that GCHQ was operating

:18:14.:18:17.

on this scale. We have to remember these slides that Edward Snowdon

:18:17.:18:21.

first brought into the public domain from the NSA, these e-mails

:18:21.:18:25.

and other presentations given by GCHQ they are selling jobs. They

:18:25.:18:28.

are showing off? They are institutional showing off to other

:18:28.:18:31.

members of the intelligence community and Governments more

:18:31.:18:35.

widely, we can do this and that for you. Hence some of the

:18:35.:18:40.

misunderstandings actually early on was what Prism was, was it going to

:18:40.:18:43.

the companies without them knowing. We know it wasn't now. In the UK

:18:43.:18:49.

test the limbtations are still there. Of processing power, of law

:18:49.:18:54.

and of storage of data that mean that although they are handling

:18:54.:18:58.

this massive amount, and boasting that this is more at any one moment

:18:58.:19:04.

than the NSA can handle, the actual use they can make of it is more

:19:04.:19:08.

limited than the NSA with its massive resources. Where does it

:19:08.:19:12.

take the debate, we are in the midst of the arguments about the

:19:12.:19:15.

called snooper's charter? argument that is made in the

:19:15.:19:19.

articles this evening is that the Regulation of Investigatory Powers

:19:19.:19:23.

Act of 2000, the law under which it is done is out of date. Britain

:19:23.:19:33.
:19:33.:19:33.

needs to move on. The secure crates have been trying to move it on to

:19:33.:19:36.

things like BlackBerry message and other internet apps which they are

:19:36.:19:40.

not sure they have the legal authority to do. It may be that

:19:40.:19:43.

people on the other side of the argument create an opportunity for

:19:43.:19:47.

them. They are so appalled by what is going on that they demand new

:19:47.:19:51.

legislation that may allow the two sides to thrash it out and put this

:19:51.:19:54.

on a more proper legal basis. Thank you very much.

:19:54.:19:59.

Now Jenni Murray the presenter of Woman's Own, made her debut as a

:19:59.:20:07.

conductor with the BBC Philharmonic, with the overture to Bizet's kaerm

:20:07.:20:13.

men. She had a few hours training which hails kaerm men as a wild

:20:13.:20:17.

seductress. The choice of music might be more than opt. In an

:20:18.:20:22.

article penned for the Times she implied that women in classical

:20:22.:20:25.

music still have a tough time making it big, but using your looks

:20:25.:20:35.
:20:35.:20:37.

goes a long way to help. They are the hard working artists bringing

:20:37.:20:41.

classical music to the masses. According to Jenni Murray to have

:20:41.:20:48.

to look right to play the part. She said despite the world of classical

:20:48.:20:53.

music becoming more female-friendly, the women seemed to be most welcome

:20:53.:20:59.

are the ones that go along with the idea that sex sells. She picked out

:20:59.:21:03.

the award winning Scottish violinist Nicola Benedetti being

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marketed in that way. As well as the trumpeter Alison Balsom. With

:21:10.:21:19.

me now are Tania, Elsbeth and Gaie from the group Bond.

:21:19.:21:24.

It seems Michael White that the argument that some seem to be

:21:24.:21:28.

eVinceing that by laweding these type of artist who are attractive

:21:28.:21:32.

and so forth and make popular classical music, in some way this

:21:32.:21:42.
:21:42.:21:43.

is a dumbing down? And it is, I can understand why it happens. One

:21:43.:21:50.

thing that is the question on classical people at the moment is

:21:50.:21:55.

how do replace the ageing audience. One is investing in glamour

:21:55.:21:58.

palmaging, to some extent that works, but you have to be careful

:21:58.:22:02.

that you are not compromising what you are selling and you have to be

:22:02.:22:05.

careful you are not selling a lie. The lie can be that the pretty

:22:05.:22:09.

person is not the best person. can be the line because in the face

:22:09.:22:13.

of Bond all these women here are classically trained. Are you saying

:22:13.:22:18.

the kind of music they are playing sells them short? Bond are with

:22:18.:22:21.

what they are. I'm sure they are very successful at what they do.

:22:21.:22:27.

They are not my cup of tea but it is not the end of the world. That

:22:27.:22:33.

happens. I don't really want to criticise Bond for what they are.

:22:34.:22:39.

What you are essentially saying and it is, what you are essentially

:22:39.:22:43.

saying is if you are to all intents of what is regarded as being

:22:43.:22:47.

attractive, in a way that is a problem because it detracts from

:22:47.:22:51.

what you are doing? I think it can misdirect the public. If the public

:22:51.:22:56.

are encouraged to think that the pretty artist is the great artist

:22:56.:23:01.

then what happens to the artist who is short and fat and pimplely and

:23:01.:23:05.

unattractive. Sometimes it is the short fat artist who is the great

:23:05.:23:08.

artist. Sometimes it is the attractive artist. Let's just come

:23:08.:23:12.

back on this you two? Basically I think it is very unfair that the

:23:13.:23:17.

two artists who she has attacked they are fantastic musicians.

:23:17.:23:20.

Nicola Benedetti and Alison Balsom. They are classical performers. We

:23:20.:23:25.

are actually a crossover group we compose our own music we don't call

:23:25.:23:28.

ourselves classical, we see ourselves as another category. To

:23:28.:23:32.

pick on these two who just happen to be attractive women is sexist in

:23:32.:23:38.

a way itself. Do you think, are you concerned that what people say

:23:38.:23:42.

about you being glamorous detracts from your music or have you made a

:23:42.:23:46.

calculation that you just go for it any way? Right from the beginning

:23:46.:23:50.

when we started we wanted to do something different with Bond we

:23:50.:23:53.

formed to do something more of a pop presentation. We just wanted to

:23:53.:23:57.

dress in way that made us feel confident on stage. You say you are

:23:57.:24:02.

a crossover group. Are you concerned in a way that you are not

:24:02.:24:06.

playing what some people regard as challenging music? No, we compose

:24:06.:24:13.

and arrange and produce our music, we are classically trained

:24:13.:24:18.

performers. 15 years we have been working towards this? I'm sure they

:24:18.:24:21.

are great at what they do. But beauty is not the issue it is how

:24:21.:24:25.

you sound that is the issue. That is the basis on which you should be

:24:25.:24:29.

judged. Exactly, when Jenni Murray talks about Nicola Benedetti who an

:24:29.:24:33.

artist who has strived since a child, nobody practices more than

:24:33.:24:37.

Nicola and she is incredibly talented, is that fair or not?

:24:37.:24:40.

of the other points that Jenni Murray was making is there is too

:24:40.:24:44.

much pressure on people to look good. I don't agree with that the

:24:44.:24:47.

most famous classical musicians in the world are not the most

:24:47.:24:50.

beautiful but they still sell out Opera Houses and concerts and they

:24:50.:24:56.

have a market. The thing about the older audience, people tend to get

:24:56.:25:00.

into classical audience as they get older, I appreciate it more than as

:25:00.:25:04.

a teenager, it is not a declining market, everybody is getting old we

:25:04.:25:09.

will get to the concert hall at some point I feel. I'm not glins

:25:09.:25:12.

glamour and it is a useful marketing tool. It is a useful

:25:13.:25:15.

marketing tool. You have to be aware of the consequences. Of

:25:15.:25:19.

course you have to market classical music, you have to go and find an

:25:19.:25:22.

audience. At the moment you have to find a younger audience. You look

:25:22.:25:25.

around a concert and it is quite true there is hardly anybody under

:25:25.:25:30.

40 very often, what do you do about that. Yes, glamour and packaging is

:25:30.:25:35.

part of the solution. But it is a solution you have to use very, very

:25:35.:25:39.

carefully. Surely an audience can tell, somebody can be you know as

:25:39.:25:44.

beautiful as the Queen of Sheba, and not very good and they are not

:25:44.:25:47.

going to make it, are they? audience can't always tell. There

:25:47.:25:51.

is a very innocent audience out there. The audience can't tell?I

:25:51.:25:57.

think that is a little bit disrespectful to an audience. Also

:25:57.:26:00.

everybody has, we have had a lifetime of training and Nicola

:26:00.:26:05.

Benedetti, show has studied very hard and just because she as

:26:05.:26:08.

attractive she is discriminated against them. Would you say the

:26:08.:26:15.

same over handsome tenors? In an ideal world on a opera stage every

:26:15.:26:19.

romantic tenor would be tall and dark and handsome and every lead

:26:20.:26:25.

would be handsome too, that is not the case, you cast for the voice

:26:25.:26:30.

and talent. When you say you can expect audiences to know. You can't

:26:30.:26:33.

very often they are seduced by marketing and it can redirect your

:26:33.:26:38.

attention. I think of lots of different opera singers who are not

:26:38.:26:42.

particularly handsome? When you go to a concert and opera, opera has

:26:42.:26:45.

the visual but a classical concert is about the music. It could be

:26:45.:26:48.

anybody on the stage, if they can't move you emotionally it doesn't

:26:48.:26:52.

matter. Maybe we will see you play in jeans? We have done that before

:26:52.:26:55.

many times. I think you have to go and get ready for something. Thank

:26:55.:27:00.

you all very much indeed. And we have got tomorrow morning's front

:27:00.:27:10.
:27:10.:27:10.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 56 seconds

:27:10.:28:06.

pages. And we have got nationwide Well we finish tonight soon but at

:28:06.:28:10.

the end of the longest day of the year, with a performance by our

:28:10.:28:15.

guest Bond. Here they are with a piece penned by their cellist

:28:15.:28:25.
:28:25.:28:25.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 56 seconds

:28:25.:30:13.

Well this weekend is going to be cool, showery and with quite a

:30:13.:30:17.

strong wind especially across many western and southern areas of the

:30:17.:30:21.

UK. And the showers could be heavy as well. Possibly with hail and

:30:21.:30:23.

thunder, particularly across Northern Ireland and western parts

:30:24.:30:28.

of Scotland. So these two areas I think one or two downpours on the

:30:28.:30:33.

cards. If you live the other side of Scotland, Aberdeenshire, Murray,

:30:33.:30:37.

the weather may turn out fairly decent. Hopping across the border

:30:37.:30:42.

to England it is a mish-mash, sunny spells and showers. The weather

:30:42.:30:45.

could turn out to be quite good through the afternoon, but it will

:30:45.:30:48.

be windy. Through the Dover strait we are talking about a gale force

:30:48.:30:51.

wind. That wind will be strong across the southern coast, right

:30:51.:30:55.

down to the tip of Cornwall. In some spots winds will be gusting

:30:55.:30:59.

around about 40 or 50 miles an hour. If you are in the wind and rain it

:30:59.:31:02.

will feel on the cool side. Very similar weather across the southern

:31:02.:31:06.

coasts of Wales here around the bay as well. The weather won't change

:31:06.:31:09.

an awful lot through the course of Saturday and into Sunday either.

:31:09.:31:13.

Let's have a look at some other places around the world and see

:31:13.:31:18.

what is going on across Europe. In Oslo temperatures of 18 degrees,

:31:18.:31:23.

recently we had a heatwave here, now it is easing off but the real

:31:23.:31:28.

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