21/06/2013 Newsnight


Kirsty Wark has the latest on the riots in Brazil, explores why British Intelligence are gathering our raw internet data and asks the Bond Quartet if beauty sells classical music.

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Will Brazil be engulfed by protests this weekend. Lauded as an economic


success with an apparently popular and long-serving left-wing


Government. Last night more than a million people took to the streets,


with bigger demonstrations promised to come, where will it end?


Also tonight our very own spy agency, GCHQ, is reported to be


secretly trawling the Internet and holding massive amounts of our


personal data. It is not illegal, but should it be?


This, playing and talking live in the studio the Bond quartet, is


their success down to their beauty or classical musical skills and


does it matter either way? Good evening, Brazil's President


emerged from an emergency cabinet meeting today without any message


or apparent plan to quell the protests that have snowballed to


such an extent that it was said last night more than a million


people were on the streets in more many cities. A rise in bus fares


and the hosting of World Cup and the Olympics, may not be the


circumstances to aggregate the state of the country, but it


appears to be what's happening. Now how will the Government react for


the protests planned for the weekend.


First of all, there was no apparent message from the cabinet meeting,


are you hearing anything now? we have been told within the last


couple of hours that President Dilma Rousseff is preparing to


address the nation. A lot of people were asking on social networks


today and last night at the peak of the violence where is our President.


It is clear she is now going to speak to the nation, perhaps as


soon as tonight, perhaps within the next few days. I think it will be


the most critical broadcast of her presidency, a million people more


on the streets of many Brazilian cities, a real test of the


Government. Talking to a presidential spokesman, there was a


wounded talk, they talked about the 40 million lifted out of poverty in


recent years, the expansion of the health and education system. They


say they don't disagree with the demonstrators, they want to talk to


them. When the protestors were originally talking about the


transport fares, those increases were immediately reversed. What


will the President have to say in this message, would she have to


show a change of policy, all this money going to the World Cup that


apparently should be going to education, the protestors say,


would she have to do something concrete to stop the protestors in


their tracks? This is part of the challenge. I'm not entirely


convinced the Government knows what to say. In talking to them they get


a sense of surprise and shock and even alarm. One of the most


striking images last night was of the demonstrators at the front of


the Foreign Ministry, this landmark building in the sent of the capital,


starting a fire. I think ministers were visibly shaken by that. Their


challenge is the fact the movement is so diverse and people are


raising so many concerns. They are talking about tax issues, they are


talking about spending on education and health. They are talk about the


vast cost of hosting the World Cup and the Olympics, and with so many


issues it is difficult to know what the President can say beyond


offering talks to try to understand better. They are saying to us


tonight part of their difficulty is that this is a moment without a


structure and without a clear leadership, who do we talk to.


What is behind these protests and is it part of a bigger global


phenomenon? Our Economics Editor Paul Mason reports.


This is what its like when a million people decide economic


growth is not enough. The streets of Rio last night proved that this


has now gone way beyond a protest over bus fares.


There was sporadic violence. The police here use a mixture of gas,


stun grenades and plastic bullets. The protestors a mixture of fire


and moral force. And in places this week the strains on law enforcement


have shown. Here a riot cop refuses orders and is sent packing by his


commander. Everywhere the symbolism of a protest led by educated youth.


Irony, tolerance, the national flag and the football shirt. How did a


movement over bus fares escalate to this, a protest poster says it all.


A city of 11 million people with a distinctly minimalise underground


railway map. -- minimalist underground railway


map. This was the symbol of skewed priorities, Brazil instead had


spent billions of stadiums and infrastructure to host the World


Cup. And when people protested a familiar pattern emerged.


started to get bigger when we started seeing that the police were


really being aggressive to the protestors. Then there was this


feeling of solidarity like this can't be happening, we have to have


the freedom to express ourselves. It had been simplering for months


if you knew where to look -- simplering for months if you knew


where to look. Here a cup match amid the chaos has seen slum


clearance on the perimeter. Overall 170,000 people will be affected by


things like this. To make next year's World Cup happen the


Government is spending $16 billion, not far short of the country's


annual education budget. We are talking about a huge urban crisis


in every city in Brazil. The policies are made for few, there is


huge profit on for instance estate speculation. The World Cup issue is


also an urban issue. Many of the works and investments being done


for the World Cup are very unequal, they are, for instance, expeling


lots of people from their homes. There is about 170,000 people who


have been threatened or are under threat of losing their homes


because they live around the Stadio, and the big infra-- Stadio, and the


big infrastructure investments happening around the stadiums.


Brazil is among the four big countries, the BRIC, that made the


term "Third World" go out of fashion. Rapid growth has pulled 36


million people into the middle- class. Even the technical measure


of inequality is falling. Now inflation is rising, above 6%. If


the protests started on the left and the educatedout, it is now


drawing in the trade unions and people from the slums. Its focus


has turned to corruption, cronyism and the political elite, full stop.


The city of Sao Paulo the activists are trying to call it off. It has


now got completely blurred, people yesterday burned flags of all the


party, some of them were absolutely against any party. And that's why


the left-wing moreed traditional movements have decided not to


protest any more here in Sao Paulo. Including the free press movement


have said their demand was met and they are not going to protest any


more. But in mass revolts things will get


out of hand. Brazil's President, a former Marxist guerrilla has


promised to address the nation soon. For now she's reliant on force,


concessions and a U-turn by activists to make this particular


carnival go away. Paul is with me now. This danger


that without a leadership we have anarchy and without any leadership


you have more violence? Brazil is one of the BRIC countries, and


three out of the four BRIC countries have now had unrest in


the past 18 months, the Russian post electoral unrest, the Indian


unrest following the gang rape and now this. Own in Turkey two weeks


ago an honourary BRIC country we are seeing now the emergence across


the rapidly developing world of a problem of young urban educated


people who, wherever the initial spark is, whatever the initial


problem is, they come to the streets and they express a general


frustration with, not the economic deal they are getting, but the


political, the freedom, the ability to express, all these minutor


demands, relatively minor. It is a left-wing Government? It is


democratically elected and loft wing. Its priority for ten years


and more, even before power, has been to develop Brazil for the poor.


These are the people who some of them used to be the poor, but they


are the Facebookers, and people I'm interacting with on Twitter right


now are there, their perspective on that is they want a modern country


where they can affect things. was said within the last hour that


it was announced that President Rousseff is going to address the


nation as early as tomorrow. Is there anything she can actually say


do you think that will break this down? The workers party, the PT,


the ruling party has a massive machine. It has the kind of machine


that, in fact, the ruler of Turkey had and on this occasion it is kind


of embedded among the masses. Some of whom will be protesting. It can


help deflate this. But what it needs to do is to be able to find


leaders to talk to, find out what their demands are. We are pretty


clear what they are, and then do things. And that's a challenge if


you have never faced this kind of protest before. Thank you very much


indeed. I'm joined by the Brazilian ambassador to the UK. It is a


pretty sorry scene to see stun guns and teargas and so forth out there


on the streets. When these are essentially people that have


supported this Government? It is quite true, of course when you have


one million people mass mobility, it creates different types of


volatility. You don't have control of the streets? It is difficult,


but of course we have the police there to protect the protestors


themselves and protect property, because looters infiltrate and they


create havoc. But we see what happened, we were just talking


about it in Turkey. When the educated young middle-class


disaffected are outen on the streets, they are hard to shift --


out on the streets, they are hard to shift? Brazil is a little


different to the scenario. We have a thorough democratic process, the


full participation of everybody. The movement shows some people feel


not adequately represented. We have had a news flash that the President


will speak in two hours time, 1.00am our time. It shows the


urgency she is addressing, we know the road to the Sao Paulo Airport


is shut and protests are planned. Will she announce a change of


policy? She will announce what she already annuciated. She hears and


wants to be able to perceive the message and to see what can be done.


If you have $16 million spent on the World Cup and people protesting


that really is the equivalent of what is spent on education and what


is spent on education is falling far short. What does she do, does


she announce a big financial project? I think there is a


volatility, there is a difusion in the message. You have to understand


when the World Cup was announced to Brazil it was global jubilation,


among all the people. The same thing with the Olympic Games. There


is a volatility in this issue. Of course hosting the World Cup brings


enormous possibilities as well. When you have something as iconic,


for example in Turkey and Taksim Square, as initially a garden


project, when you have favelas removed for the World Cup, it is


those things that spark bigger things? You would if you had


favelas being moved, that is not the case. We had stadia being built


which got significant investments. We have significant improvement in


transportation which is very beneficial to the population in


general. So a number of investments were required any way. At the


moment though the Confederation Cup is going on, which is the precursor


to the World Cup, do you think you will get to the World Cup, will it


still be held in Brazil? I have no doubt whatsoever. Amongst one


million protestors the games of the Confederation Cup were held and


very well without any individual with issues in the games themselves.


If this was to happen next year, with the influx of people coming to


the World Cup, that would be disastrous for BR sill, you have to


get it sorted out -- Brazil, you have to get it sorted out? We don't


want to control people, but we have a responsibility to incorporate


them into the democratic process. That is what we want to do. You say


you can't control people, when the images are flashed around on social


media are of police controlling for their own safety, but coming up


against rioters, for whatever reason, that does not look like a


Government in control? Well as I said, the mobility and mass


mobilisation generates their own volatility of that nature, this


happens everywhere. It is important to avoid that these mass


demonstrations don't form into looting and damaging Government or


private property. What Paul has said and what is true, you pooled


$36 million into the middle -- you pould36 million people into the


middle-class, but people see high taxes and corruption in the


Government and appalling transport system. A lot of people don't feel


they are getting the share of the action they should get for being a


BRIC country? Brazil is a big and developing country with many


challenges. It is an ar aic country in many dimensions but very modern


in other dimensions. What we are witnessing here is besides the


traditional problems which are the central problems, incorporating


everybody into full citizenship. We have more than problems that you


witness everywhere, including here in Europe where you see people who


don't feel represented, they chose to have different types of


representation in different relations throughout the continent.


In Brazil obviously this is happening as well. But this is a


different characteristic of problems. It would be ironic for


President Rousseff, who herself used to be a guerrilla, if there


ended up being revolution in Brazil? I don't see it that way.


First of all revolution is not really the process in Brazil. We


are a very tolerant country and a co-operative country and diverse


country and we pride ourselves on that. You used to have military


coup, have you gone beyond that? Very much so, I think we have


established two or three things that have been fundamental, the


democratic process, a social inclusion process and an economic


growth process. You will be listening out for the message in


two hours time? Certainly I will. In a moment the Bond quartet. Now


the UK's listening post, QCHQ can tap more global e-mails, Facebook


posts and internet traffic, including calls, than any other


surveillance agency in the world, according to documents shown to the


Guardian by the National Security Agency's whistleblower, Edward


Snowdon. This latest revelations claims GCHQ's operation, code named


Tempora, has been running for 18 months and the information is


shared with the American NSA. If so what is the information worth and


to whom? I'm joined by our diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Tell


me what is it that GCHQ has been doing? Another set of revelations


based on e-mails from the agency in the Guardian. E seingsly --


essentially some years back a lot of traffic was from phone lines and


on to fibre optic, GCHQ wanted to tap into those and they hit on the


idea of physically tapping into the fibre optics where they enter and


leave the UK. We know under this operation Tempora, or Project


Tempora, by 2011 they were tapping in physically tapping into the


infrastructure more than 200 points around the UK. Now obviously


billions of bits of data streaming by, you can only hold it in this


buffer because of the quantity of data for three days with the


content phone call, e-mails, all the rest of it. After that it slips


out, the metadata, the numbers called, the e-mail address, that


kind of thing, stay in the system for 30 days then that goes too.


Even while it is being held in that system it has to be massively


narrowed down, there is a process of reduction based on the type of


files, whether they have attachments all this kind of stuff


designed to zero right in on 40,000 selectors programmed into the


system. That could be a single person's phone number or e-mail


address or it could be a term used in the e-mail like a name of a


particular chemical used in refining drugs or anything like


that and 31,000 of those selectors from the NSA. That is the scope of


the programme that the Guardian has said it has uncovered. That is the


scope, but how you are pricing is it? There is -- surprising is it?


There is always a difference between capability and performance


in this technical gathering programme s of intelligence. I have


to admit I find it moderately surprising that GCHQ was operating


on this scale. We have to remember these slides that Edward Snowdon


first brought into the public domain from the NSA, these e-mails


and other presentations given by GCHQ they are selling jobs. They


are showing off? They are institutional showing off to other


members of the intelligence community and Governments more


widely, we can do this and that for you. Hence some of the


misunderstandings actually early on was what Prism was, was it going to


the companies without them knowing. We know it wasn't now. In the UK


test the limbtations are still there. Of processing power, of law


and of storage of data that mean that although they are handling


this massive amount, and boasting that this is more at any one moment


than the NSA can handle, the actual use they can make of it is more


limited than the NSA with its massive resources. Where does it


take the debate, we are in the midst of the arguments about the


called snooper's charter? argument that is made in the


articles this evening is that the Regulation of Investigatory Powers


Act of 2000, the law under which it is done is out of date. Britain


needs to move on. The secure crates have been trying to move it on to


things like BlackBerry message and other internet apps which they are


not sure they have the legal authority to do. It may be that


people on the other side of the argument create an opportunity for


them. They are so appalled by what is going on that they demand new


legislation that may allow the two sides to thrash it out and put this


on a more proper legal basis. Thank you very much.


Now Jenni Murray the presenter of Woman's Own, made her debut as a


conductor with the BBC Philharmonic, with the overture to Bizet's kaerm


men. She had a few hours training which hails kaerm men as a wild


seductress. The choice of music might be more than opt. In an


article penned for the Times she implied that women in classical


music still have a tough time making it big, but using your looks


goes a long way to help. They are the hard working artists bringing


classical music to the masses. According to Jenni Murray to have


to look right to play the part. She said despite the world of classical


music becoming more female-friendly, the women seemed to be most welcome


are the ones that go along with the idea that sex sells. She picked out


the award winning Scottish violinist Nicola Benedetti being


marketed in that way. As well as the trumpeter Alison Balsom. With


me now are Tania, Elsbeth and Gaie from the group Bond.


It seems Michael White that the argument that some seem to be


eVinceing that by laweding these type of artist who are attractive


and so forth and make popular classical music, in some way this


is a dumbing down? And it is, I can understand why it happens. One


thing that is the question on classical people at the moment is


how do replace the ageing audience. One is investing in glamour


palmaging, to some extent that works, but you have to be careful


that you are not compromising what you are selling and you have to be


careful you are not selling a lie. The lie can be that the pretty


person is not the best person. can be the line because in the face


of Bond all these women here are classically trained. Are you saying


the kind of music they are playing sells them short? Bond are with


what they are. I'm sure they are very successful at what they do.


They are not my cup of tea but it is not the end of the world. That


happens. I don't really want to criticise Bond for what they are.


What you are essentially saying and it is, what you are essentially


saying is if you are to all intents of what is regarded as being


attractive, in a way that is a problem because it detracts from


what you are doing? I think it can misdirect the public. If the public


are encouraged to think that the pretty artist is the great artist


then what happens to the artist who is short and fat and pimplely and


unattractive. Sometimes it is the short fat artist who is the great


artist. Sometimes it is the attractive artist. Let's just come


back on this you two? Basically I think it is very unfair that the


two artists who she has attacked they are fantastic musicians.


Nicola Benedetti and Alison Balsom. They are classical performers. We


are actually a crossover group we compose our own music we don't call


ourselves classical, we see ourselves as another category. To


pick on these two who just happen to be attractive women is sexist in


a way itself. Do you think, are you concerned that what people say


about you being glamorous detracts from your music or have you made a


calculation that you just go for it any way? Right from the beginning


when we started we wanted to do something different with Bond we


formed to do something more of a pop presentation. We just wanted to


dress in way that made us feel confident on stage. You say you are


a crossover group. Are you concerned in a way that you are not


playing what some people regard as challenging music? No, we compose


and arrange and produce our music, we are classically trained


performers. 15 years we have been working towards this? I'm sure they


are great at what they do. But beauty is not the issue it is how


you sound that is the issue. That is the basis on which you should be


judged. Exactly, when Jenni Murray talks about Nicola Benedetti who an


artist who has strived since a child, nobody practices more than


Nicola and she is incredibly talented, is that fair or not?


of the other points that Jenni Murray was making is there is too


much pressure on people to look good. I don't agree with that the


most famous classical musicians in the world are not the most


beautiful but they still sell out Opera Houses and concerts and they


have a market. The thing about the older audience, people tend to get


into classical audience as they get older, I appreciate it more than as


a teenager, it is not a declining market, everybody is getting old we


will get to the concert hall at some point I feel. I'm not glins


glamour and it is a useful marketing tool. It is a useful


marketing tool. You have to be aware of the consequences. Of


course you have to market classical music, you have to go and find an


audience. At the moment you have to find a younger audience. You look


around a concert and it is quite true there is hardly anybody under


40 very often, what do you do about that. Yes, glamour and packaging is


part of the solution. But it is a solution you have to use very, very


carefully. Surely an audience can tell, somebody can be you know as


beautiful as the Queen of Sheba, and not very good and they are not


going to make it, are they? audience can't always tell. There


is a very innocent audience out there. The audience can't tell?I


think that is a little bit disrespectful to an audience. Also


everybody has, we have had a lifetime of training and Nicola


Benedetti, show has studied very hard and just because she as


attractive she is discriminated against them. Would you say the


same over handsome tenors? In an ideal world on a opera stage every


romantic tenor would be tall and dark and handsome and every lead


would be handsome too, that is not the case, you cast for the voice


and talent. When you say you can expect audiences to know. You can't


very often they are seduced by marketing and it can redirect your


attention. I think of lots of different opera singers who are not


particularly handsome? When you go to a concert and opera, opera has


the visual but a classical concert is about the music. It could be


anybody on the stage, if they can't move you emotionally it doesn't


matter. Maybe we will see you play in jeans? We have done that before


many times. I think you have to go and get ready for something. Thank


you all very much indeed. And we have got tomorrow morning's front


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 56 seconds


pages. And we have got nationwide Well we finish tonight soon but at


the end of the longest day of the year, with a performance by our


guest Bond. Here they are with a piece penned by their cellist


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 56 seconds


Well this weekend is going to be cool, showery and with quite a


strong wind especially across many western and southern areas of the


UK. And the showers could be heavy as well. Possibly with hail and


thunder, particularly across Northern Ireland and western parts


of Scotland. So these two areas I think one or two downpours on the


cards. If you live the other side of Scotland, Aberdeenshire, Murray,


the weather may turn out fairly decent. Hopping across the border


to England it is a mish-mash, sunny spells and showers. The weather


could turn out to be quite good through the afternoon, but it will


be windy. Through the Dover strait we are talking about a gale force


wind. That wind will be strong across the southern coast, right


down to the tip of Cornwall. In some spots winds will be gusting


around about 40 or 50 miles an hour. If you are in the wind and rain it


will feel on the cool side. Very similar weather across the southern


coasts of Wales here around the bay as well. The weather won't change


an awful lot through the course of Saturday and into Sunday either.


Let's have a look at some other places around the world and see


what is going on across Europe. In Oslo temperatures of 18 degrees,


recently we had a heatwave here, now it is easing off but the real


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