20/06/2013 Newsnight


20/06/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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The organisation supposed to protect the quality of healthcare

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in this country admits it made a mistake.

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Last night its boss statistic in that chair and told us he couldn't

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say who done it. He's back tonight and saying something different.

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It's happening here and here and here, children from poorer homes,

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white children, generally, failing at school without anyone seeming to

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care very much. If education in inner cities can be improved, why

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not in a leafy suburb, or sunny seaside.

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The Carnegie prize winner, Sally Gardner, the headteacher from the

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TV series, Educating Essex, and leading educationalist discuss.

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filming myself on one of these on one of these, whilst being filmed

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by one of these at the same time. That's what I will be talking about,

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how fatastically annoying people like me are!

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Whatever Marcus. We have got our own annoying guest to about why

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people feel this weird compulsion to film everything.

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Also tonight, they come from across the world to seek asylum in the

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lucky country, and they end up in camps in another country in the

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Pacific, what is Australia's policy towards refugees? What we want to

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do, apparently, is to make ourselves look even less desirable

:01:30.:01:40.
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than the Taliban. Either they had bad legal advice or

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the Care Quality Commission, supposed to protect us from

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malpractice and medical incompetence don't know itself.

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Last night the boss told us he couldn't disclose who had been in

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on the fatal discovery of suppressing a fatal report.

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Tonight we will see what they had to say shortly. First new readers

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start here with our science editor, Watts.

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Yet we had the CQC's own report, looking into how well they had

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investigated concerns over the deaths of mothers and babies at the

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Morecambe Bay Hospital Trust. It was a damning report, which found

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evidence of cover-up, of failures. The CQC had taken out the names of

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individuals, not identified people, citing data protection concerns.

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Then we spoke to the Information Commissioner, he's the man whose

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job it is to implement the Data Protection Act. He couldn't

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understand why they were saying that. Now here is how the chief

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executive of the CQC, David Behan, reacted on last night's programme.

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You said unambiguously the advice you have been given is wrong, and

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that you are hiding behind it? are not hiding behind it, I

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wouldn't have commissioned this report in the first place, we are

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clear that we need to account for what we did and that's what we will

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do. You will publish the names tomorrow will you? I will take

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legal advice tomorrow on publishing the names.

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The pressure has built, and today the CQC wrote to Jeremy Hunt, the

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Health Secretary, and said it had reviewed its original legal advice,

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taken into account what the Information Commissioner had said

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to us, and decided that the overridinging public interest in

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transparency and accountability meant they could disclose those

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names. So how does this move us forward then? Crucially we now know

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the identities of four people who were at a meeting in March last

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year at which it is alleged the order was made to delete an

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internal report that it was very critical of the way that the

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regulator had behaved. Now in yesterday's report these people

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were just referred to by letter names. Now we know that Mr E was in

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fact Cynthia Bower, the former chief executive of the CQC, who

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left the organisation last year. Today she resigned from the private

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health lobbying company where she has been since. She has denied any

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wrongdoing. Mr F was in fact Anna Jefferson, the media manager, who

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still works at the CQC. She was the one identified in yesterday's

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report as saying "are you kidding me, this can never be in a public

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domain or subjected to FoI". She's now on maternity leave and

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vehemently denies having said that. Today she said the quote was

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completely untrue and uncoroborated by anybody else and has since been

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retracted. Third that at meeting, "Mr G", Jill Finney, she has also

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left. She's the one who is also alleged to have made the order to

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delete, saying "read my lips", she denies that, today she was sacked

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by the Internet registry company where she had been working. The

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last of the four at that meeting was "Mr J", we know that was Louise

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Dinely, head of regulatory risk and quality at the CQC, still in post

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who wrote that critical internal report and didn't in fact delete it.

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Has disclosing these names done anything to improve confidence in

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the Care Quality Commission, do you think? I think they have a job on

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their hands. There will be internal rows at the organisation for some

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time yet. There are calls for the police to look at whether there are

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grounds for criminal charges against individuals for failing

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patients. That deleted report is now on their website. But it has

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been a very bad mis-step by a regulator whose mantra has been the

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need for openness. Thank you.

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As mentioned the chief executive of the Care Quality Commission was

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last night in that very chair saying he would review the legal

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advice he had been given. Earlier this evening he kindly agreed to

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come back and see us. Welcome back. Thank you.Have your

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lawyers now told you there isn't a problem with the Data Protection

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Act? Well last night we said we would review the advice we were

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given. I gave a commitment to do that this morning, that is what we

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have done. I have also spoken to the Information Commissioner today

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in light of the advice he offered yesterday. What we have done is

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made a decision in the public interest to publish the names today.

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So the lawyers have not given you any different advice to the

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previous advice you have had? when they received the advice in

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the first instance, they talked about the risk of pub liring

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people's names. We have reviewed -- publishing people's names. We have

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reviewed our decision, we have changed that. We probably got it

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wrong yesterday not putting those names out. You got it wrong

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according to the Information Commissioner? We have put it right

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today, we have accepted that. are these lawyers? The lawyers we

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have consulted are a reputable company, Bevan Britain. What are

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you paying them? I haven't had the bill yet. They gave you duff

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advice? They gave us the balance and risk. That is what lawyers do.

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We need to make a judgment on that, we did make that judgment, I think

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we got it wrong. We are putting that right today, we said we would

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review it, we have listened to the Information Commissioner. What we

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are doing is we are being and transparent and accountable for

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what we did. That is why we have put the names out. We now discover

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there were two people at this crucial meeting who still work for

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you? Are they going to be disciplined? The other thing we

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have said today is I will take, I will send the report to an

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employment lawyer and take advice from them about whether there are

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any risks for them. But...It Is bad idea taking advice from lawyers, it

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gets you into trouble? If I can come back on the action of the two

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people. The responsibility for the failure to disclose this report and

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make a decision to delete it rests with the more senior people. One of

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the people that was at the meeting was instructed to delete it. She

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refused to delete it and did the appropriate thing and spoke to her

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manager. You are not consulting employment lawyers? Whose advice

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doubtless you will take again, will you? I will listen to those lawyers,

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and I will make the decision about what should happen to staff.

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what point did you decide to consult the employment lawyers?

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have made that decision, we got this report last week, I made that

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decision today that we knew. Today? You have had a week. We knew, ...I

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Had less than a week. I knew there would be issues to address about

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those staff still employed by us, we would have taken action against

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those. The have they been suspended? No they haven't been

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suspended. Shouldn't they be?The member of staff who refused to

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delete the report and told her manager has behaved in an entirely

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appropriate way, they were not part of the problem. What about the

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others? The senior people that took the decision and gave the

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instruction no longer work for CQC. I don't want to be personal about

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this, but there is a leadership issue here, isn't there? I believe

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I'm demonstrating leadership, I have had dozens upon dozens of

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messages from members of staff who believe I'm acting in an

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appropriate way, and actually creating an open and transparent

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culture in CQC, and are supportive of what I have been doing. I came

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on this programme yesterday and accounted, I'm here again to

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account. I'm part of leading CQC forward, I believe that is

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leadership and I believe my staff are recognising it as that too.

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Don't get me wrong, we are pleased to see you of course. You might be

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coming back tomorrow with some other decision you want to

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overturn? I hope not. I believe I, my values are important to me, I

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believe in public service, I believe in values of integrity and

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openness and honesty. I'm doing my best to demonstrate that in what I

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find in very difficult circumstances. But I do believe I

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need to account. I believe that's what I'm doing. It is for others to

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say whether they have trust in me, but I'm trying to demonstrate the

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very best values in public sector leadership.

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There was some rather good news today about what's happening in

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some of our schools. The latest report from Jeff stead inspectors

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suggest standards have risen in many British cities, but there is

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inevitable low a flip side. The places that need serious attention

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-- Ofsted suggest standards have risen in many British cities. There

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are place, where the poorer children are allowed to fail, it is

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suggested the creation of an elite force of teachers to sort the

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problem. The problem is especially apparent in some seaside towns. We

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went to Essex. I am Scarlet, I'm 15 and live in

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Brightlingsea, I'm studying history. I want to be a primary school

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teacher. I don't know what I would like to be but I would like it to

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be of some importance. At Colne Community School, it is the

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ambition of the pupils that strikes you most. It wasn't always so. Five

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years ago Ofsted called the call "satisfactory", in other words

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mediocre. The pupils had low expectation for their future.

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children seemed to have very little aspiration. We are in a community

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by the sea, we are in a community where there are lots of family

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businesses and the aspirations of the students were very narrow in

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that sense. That's really been a large part of our work here is to

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make the students aware of opportunities outside of

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Brightlingsea and Essex and England, into the whole global market.

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school, which serves a community with its fair share of deprivation,

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has been turned around. Ofsted calls it "outstanding". How did

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they do it? They put much of their success down to having made

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dramatic changes to the teaching staff. Did you have to get rid of

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some bad teachers? I don't think there is such a thing as a bad

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teacher. I think there are sometimes teachers who don't

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necessarily fit into an organisation. They may be a weaker

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teacher. You did have to ask some to go? Some teachers did leave the

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school. The idea that good teaching can improve the performance of even

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the poorest pupils was at the heart of Sir Michael Wilshaw's speech.

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Poverty of Pectation is a greater problem than material --

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expectation is a greater problem than material deprivation. It is

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true that many families find it hard to make ends meet, but the

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children of poor families with high aspirations do better at school

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than those whose parents and teachers expect little of them.

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Today's Ofsted report looked at the location of schools with high

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numbers of deprived children. It found that the ones serving them

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best are concentrated heavily in urban areas. The ones serve them

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least well, included a significant number in coastal communities.

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Were it not for strong school leadership, Brightlingsea could be

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one such community. Like many seaside downs it feels cut off. It

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is not that it is at the end of the -- towns it feels cut off. It is

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not that it is at the end of the line, all that is left is the

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railway and the pub. But the success of Brightlingsea's

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secondary school is an exception rather than the rule. Too many

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children living along this coastline have been let down by the

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education system. Many of the schools are performing well below

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the national average. You need to travel a few miles down the coast

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to find a village that tops the league table, in poverty, that is.

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Jaywick is the most deprived place in England. It is a community that

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feels left behind. I think they are not looked after anywhere near as

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well as the big cities and town, they deal with that side of it. But

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the smaller communities are ez left behind. --Are left behind.

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youngsters don't stand much of a chance here. You try to give your

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children the best chance you can. Are you worried for them? Yes, I am,

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definitely. Why?Because if they don't do so well how is their life

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going to be as they grow up? Are they going to bring their own

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families up in poverty? Today Ofsted warned that it is

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neighbourhoods like this one, with mostly white population, that are

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failing poor children most. In graph shows that with the heavy

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focus on improving standards in Britain's ethically diverse inner

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cities, the poorest children from Bangladeshi, Indian, black African,

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Pakistani and black Caribbean backgrounds have all seen large

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increases in their GCSE pass rate since 2007. Despite starting from

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the lowest base five years ago, it is white British children on free

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school meals who have seen the smallest increase.

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So why are coastal communities in this part of Essex struggling?

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are dealing with some of the issues that are falling out of the urban

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areas and we are picking up quite a few of the pieces at the moment.

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What do you mean by that? We have a bit of a transient population. You

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find that schools are picking up youngstersing out of education in

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inner cities, they have -- youngsters out of education and

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inner cities, they have family issues, picking up those families

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with complex issues is the biggest problem.

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Ofsted has highlighted not just what disadvantaged children can

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achieve, but where they can be found.

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With us is Chris Husbands, director of the Institute of Education at

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the University of London, who was a member of the expert panel that put

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together the Ofsted report. Vic Goddard, the principal of Passmoor,

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he's Academy, featured in Educating Essex. And Sally Gardner, labelled

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"unteachable" at school, but won the Carnegie Medal for her book

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Maggot Moon. These are unseen children, who are they? If you look

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at the Ofsted report they said there are two sorts of schools that

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do well for their children. There are schools that are relatively few

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poor children in the school, and schools that have very large

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numbers of children on free cool -- free school meals. Those the

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schools doing well. There are significant numbers of poor

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children not doing well. Are you familiar with this phenomenon?

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think the silent minority is always there. It is always difficult when

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you have our eye on so many balls and plates spinning. It is

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difficult to always keep that. Being reminded by Sir Michael today

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is fine. I think we should be keeping on being reminded of the

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young people missing out. The transparency on information on

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schools is so much greater, people can see where we are doing well or

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not, and if we are supported to change it all the better. What is

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your feeling of how much this is a consequence of social deprivation

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and how much it is something else? I think it is a lot to do with

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social deprivation in these particular areas. I think there are

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amazing teachers battling with very, very difficult problems that come

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into these schools. And I sort of feel we should empower teachers

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rather than put it down. I feel very worried about the negativity.

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We always seem to start from an area of failure rather than looking

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at what the success of these places are. And there is a success story

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in all of this. What's happened in those inner city schools is

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amazing? The big story of the Ofsted report is we are doing

:18:15.:18:19.

better than we were in 2003, the last report, we are doing much

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better than we were in 1993. We are doing better because inner cities,

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predominantly London, but also Birmingham and to some extent man

:18:28.:18:31.

chester, we have learned what we need to do -- man chester, we have

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learned what we need to do. What Michael is doing now, challenging

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us, to get what we know out of London to take it to scale. When

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you look at the figures spent per child, children in parts of inner

:18:49.:18:53.

city London, for example, are getting paid twice as much per head

:18:53.:18:59.

as in some rural areas, twice as much? The London Challenge, a big

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part of the success of London, London is the only capital city

:19:02.:19:05.

where it is above the national average. That was done on an audit

:19:05.:19:08.

of need, not done with a standard formula, let's giving everyone the

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same money. London Challenge advisers went in, looked at what

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wasness he radio, got the resources from central Government and put

:19:17.:19:21.

them in bespoke packages of training to improve the staff there.

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That was what made the difference, empowering the teachers to meet the

:19:24.:19:28.

challenges they face. And of course, it was funded centrally. Let's look

:19:28.:19:33.

at the question of teachers raised here. This is this idea, of there

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being a hit squad, that is wrong, it is called of national service of

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teachers? It is like James Bond going in. Flying in and doing his

:19:41.:19:46.

wonderful thing and then sort of going away again. And then what? So

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what? I find it an extraordinary idea, ll Orwellian. It is equally

:19:56.:20:00.

concerning to hear "there are no bad teachers". That is a daft thing.

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It was a silly thing for that man to say. There are bad people, not

:20:05.:20:09.

bad people, but people less good an others in any field? There are

:20:09.:20:12.

people who can be enfranchised to be better, and given the tools to

:20:12.:20:17.

be better, rather than starting from the area of badness. This it

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immense about testing for failure. What is the idea here? I want to go

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back half a step. The key problem here is that the teacher labour

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market is not working. What does that mean? What that means is the

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way we employ teachers in this country is that each school hires

:20:37.:20:44.

its own teachers. And we are building in to our system an almost

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mechanism that means that poorer struggling schools are finding it

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more and more difficult to attract really good teachers. We looked at

:20:52.:20:59.

schools on the east coast, it is very difficult to for schools in

:20:59.:21:02.

isolated rural areas on an open labour market to attract really

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good teachers. You are nodding? sit here today, a school that has

:21:08.:21:15.

been on telly, done OK, and an Ofsted report that is outstanding.

:21:15.:21:20.

Inspiring I thought. I still sit here without a science and maths

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teacher, advertising nationally, tweeting it, using every influence

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I get. I sill sit here because I won't employ poor teachers, I

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interview, if I don't think they are good enough I won't employ.

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What is my alternative? Superman coming for two weeks is not going

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to help. One of my two daughters tweet today say it would be good if

:21:44.:21:50.

we parachuted them in! Given that the teacher labour market isn't

:21:50.:21:54.

working. Can we put together solutions which mean we can move

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teachers around more stragically. We know we need to put teachers

:21:57.:22:02.

into Harlow and Clacton, what if we took a more strategic way to doing

:22:02.:22:06.

that? I don't think this is a national service strategy. It may

:22:06.:22:09.

be sub-regional, but it is about saying where are the good teachers

:22:09.:22:12.

in Essex, how do we make sure they are better shared around the

:22:12.:22:19.

schools of Essex. You are looking very restive? I just think it is, I

:22:19.:22:24.

think there is so many teachers, I go into lots of schools, and I do a

:22:24.:22:27.

lot of things with young people. I see so many great teachers who are

:22:27.:22:31.

just giving up. They can't take it any more. This tick box education,

:22:31.:22:35.

this new curriculum that keeps changing. All the borders keep

:22:35.:22:39.

changing. So I don't even know what the measurements are any more. I

:22:39.:22:42.

don't think many people are beginning to know that. I can see

:22:42.:22:46.

people are going away from teaching. I think it is so tragically sad

:22:46.:22:49.

that you should have this problem I can well see why teachers don't

:22:49.:22:57.

want to go into it. I spoke to a head of a Clacton school, head of

:22:57.:23:02.

Clacton Coastal Academy. Last years results were high, top 1% of the

:23:03.:23:06.

country for the progress they make, in this town around here, it is

:23:06.:23:10.

about the quality of teaching experience for the children. But

:23:10.:23:14.

there needs to be a systematic change of coastal town, I don't

:23:14.:23:17.

know what your experience is, mine is Skegness in the summer, lots of

:23:17.:23:21.

people, very vibrant, you go back to one of these place now, in the

:23:21.:23:25.

winter, where the people aren't there, the transient population

:23:25.:23:28.

mentioned. You are making an environment case. Are you saying

:23:28.:23:33.

the environment deters teachers from moving? Without a shadow of a

:23:33.:23:37.

doubt. It is about societal change. Teachers don't want to go and work

:23:37.:23:41.

in some places? It is more difficult. It is much more

:23:41.:23:45.

difficult to attract and to retain teachers into isolated rural

:23:46.:23:49.

communities like the ones that we have seen. More difficult than

:23:49.:23:53.

getting a teacher to go into a tough inner city school? Much more

:23:53.:23:58.

difficult. Things have worked incredibly well for London. London

:23:58.:24:01.

schools are vibrant, the very best place in the country to go to

:24:01.:24:07.

school if you are a poor child is a London borough, tower hamlets,

:24:07.:24:10.

Westminster, Camden, extremely successful. There are reasons why

:24:10.:24:14.

young people want to work in London. It is much more difficult, much

:24:14.:24:20.

more difficult to attract people to Clacton, Hastings, Margate. The

:24:20.:24:24.

report is saying if you want to solve that problem you have to take

:24:24.:24:33.

a more strategic approach to solving it. That means doing what

:24:33.:24:37.

they do in France, Singapore, one of the highest performing system,

:24:37.:24:41.

they will move teachers into struggling schools. Teachers have a

:24:41.:24:44.

vested interest in doing what is right for young people, we come

:24:44.:24:47.

with a moral purpose. I work with other schools outside my school to

:24:47.:24:50.

do that. Competition is not the way to raise standards, collaboration

:24:50.:24:54.

Thank you very much all of you. Now did you have a good dinner this

:24:54.:24:59.

evening? Did you take a picture of it? If so, please send it to us.

:24:59.:25:04.

Just a joke, send it to MasterChef. But the habit of taking photos,

:25:04.:25:08.

usually with our phones of anything and everything is everywhere.

:25:08.:25:12.

Instead of enjoying things and engaging them. There is a growing

:25:12.:25:18.

habit of photoglafing them. It is like firsthand events aren't real

:25:19.:25:22.

unless there is a photo, then we can all experience them secondhand.

:25:22.:25:25.

When the Queen opened these offices the other day, you could hardly see

:25:26.:25:29.

her for all the idiots holding up their telephones. What is this

:25:30.:25:37.

about? I know a man who won't know, Steven Smith reports. Can you spot

:25:37.:25:41.

the difference between these two pictures? Here is the Queen

:25:41.:25:49.

visiting the Beeb in 1953. Here she is again from a few weeks ago.

:25:49.:25:55.

Did you get it? The difference between the two pictures is all the

:25:55.:26:05.
:26:05.:26:10.

pictures. Now taken on smartphones. Zoom in, grab the shot, put it on

:26:10.:26:14.

social media. We might get to see a bit of the world if we are lucky

:26:15.:26:21.

but is anyone actually looking. A lot of us have got these gadgets

:26:21.:26:25.

now, smartphone, it seems that at the least bidding we will whip them

:26:25.:26:29.

out and start recording. But is there a danger that we are

:26:29.:26:34.

missing out on something, we are failing to live in the moment. Not

:26:34.:26:44.
:26:44.:26:44.

keeping it real? Sorry what was I saying? How things have changed.

:26:44.:26:49.

This was the crowd outside the Vatican saying farewell to Pope

:26:49.:26:54.

John Paul II in 2005. And here they are again greeting Pope Francis

:26:54.:27:01.

this year. My name is Geoff Dyer, I wrote a book about photography,

:27:01.:27:07.

called The On Going Moment. We recreated the modern experience

:27:08.:27:17.
:27:18.:27:19.

of the saturation shoot in Geoff Dyer's sitting room.

:27:19.:27:24.

The Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam has just re-opened, now you can

:27:24.:27:26.

take pictures of the Van Gogh paintings, which means that nobody

:27:26.:27:29.

is actually looking at these paintings they have come to see,

:27:29.:27:32.

the paintings they have seen endlessly in reproductions. They

:27:32.:27:36.

are always looking at them through their cameras, or just

:27:36.:27:44.

photographing them without looking. And that seems a bit daft.

:27:44.:27:48.

# It's not the way she smiles. It has been a while since Newsnight

:27:48.:27:55.

got behind a boy band. But we are not frayed to say it, the The

:27:55.:28:04.

Wanted do it for us. They live in the unsleeping eye of social media.

:28:05.:28:09.

We met the band and their fans outside our sister station Radio

:28:09.:28:18.

One. How important is the taking pictures when you come to something

:28:19.:28:21.

like this? Good because it is important because obviously.

:28:21.:28:27.

can keep the memory as well You can prove it! It is putting it on

:28:27.:28:30.

Instagram or Twitter to make everyone else jealous. How would

:28:30.:28:33.

you have felt if you had come this morning and discovered you had left

:28:33.:28:37.

your phone at home? I would have cried. Cried? I find that it is

:28:37.:28:42.

better to just not take pictures, because you are more in the moment.

:28:42.:28:47.

Max and Jay of the Wanted. We are on Newsnight. Happy to be here,

:28:47.:28:51.

Newsnight for the win. I think a lot of the time people are trying

:28:51.:28:55.

to record the moment and essentially watching it on a three-

:28:55.:28:58.

inch screen instead of the concert. How do you feel about that, you

:28:58.:29:01.

have worked long and hard on your music, you want people to live in

:29:01.:29:05.

the moment don't you? Well hopefully they are still enjoying

:29:05.:29:08.

the concert. But it is just, it is not like it was when I was a

:29:08.:29:12.

teenager for sure I don't think. What happened then, those many

:29:12.:29:16.

years ago! People jumped around and were very engaged in the

:29:16.:29:23.

performance. Not Twitter and Facebook, without

:29:23.:29:27.

them we wouldn't be where we are, we started off on Twitter. Hello

:29:27.:29:31.

I'm Marcus Brigstocke, mostly I'm a comedian, today I'm filming myself

:29:31.:29:36.

on one of these on one of these whilst being filmed by one of these

:29:36.:29:41.

at the same time. And that's what I will be talking about, how

:29:41.:29:47.

fatastically annoying people like me are. Marcus Brigstocke

:29:47.:29:50.

definitely doesn't welcome smartphones at his gigs. It is a

:29:50.:29:57.

way of hoovering up his material, for one thing. Do you let all this

:29:57.:30:01.

wash over you or what do you do? When I'm on stage I bring it up and

:30:01.:30:05.

get the person to stop. If they don't stop straight away then I go

:30:05.:30:15.

for them. When I played King Arthur in Spamalot, there was a night in

:30:15.:30:20.

Oxford where you unsheathed Ecalibur, I'm not proud, I held my

:30:20.:30:25.

sword alot of and threatened to sever a man's arm. I can't believe

:30:25.:30:27.

through the conversation you have been filming it, really

:30:27.:30:32.

disrespective, I thought this was a genuine experience! We thought we

:30:32.:30:36.

would gorilla it! See -- guerrilla it and see what happens? Do you

:30:36.:30:44.

even know what that means? No!I'm Dr Jay Watts, I'm a clinical

:30:44.:30:51.

psychology and psychotherapist, specialising in narcissism within

:30:51.:30:58.

cyberspace. Surrounded by entries for this year's BP Portrait Award

:30:58.:31:02.

at the National Gallery, Dr Watts identifies a generation gap.

:31:02.:31:07.

There has been a real cultural shift, where especially young

:31:07.:31:12.

people, the called digital natives, men and women born after 1980,

:31:12.:31:16.

really sometimes have almost an idea that one doesn't experience

:31:16.:31:20.

something unless one represents it. And the representation increasingly

:31:20.:31:25.

is on cyberspace. So it is pictures of an event, it is tweeting about

:31:25.:31:31.

an event. And really that has become such a new way of thinking

:31:31.:31:35.

that people share straight away almost addicted to the kind of hit,

:31:35.:31:39.

hit, hit of people liking and reinforcing what one has been

:31:39.:31:47.

through. This is a place to pause, study,

:31:47.:31:51.

reflect. Smartphones are taboo, or so you might think. In fact the

:31:51.:31:55.

gallery is considering allowing them and its director is a bit of a

:31:55.:32:02.

fan. I think at certain moments getting out a smartphone actually

:32:02.:32:06.

will make some people look more closely. As long as it is not the

:32:06.:32:09.

only thing. As long as people do things around it to savour the

:32:09.:32:12.

moment and think of the moment. I don't think it is a substitute for

:32:12.:32:16.

memory, I think it can maybe enhance it. It makes people to

:32:16.:32:24.

think about why they wanted that moment and the image mattered.

:32:24.:32:29.

People who meet the Queen often say it is an experience they will never

:32:29.:32:35.

forget. But if they spend a moment taking pictures, what is it exactly

:32:35.:32:40.

that they will remember? To discuss some of those points we are joined

:32:40.:32:49.

by the technology journalist and broadcaster all election Krutofsky

:32:49.:32:52.

and novelist. Why are people doing this? It is way to document

:32:52.:32:55.

themselves and document the worlds around them. Document themselves?

:32:55.:32:59.

Absolutely. It is a first person perspective, isn't T whether you

:32:59.:33:04.

are taking a photograph of yourself, a selfie, or taking a photograph of

:33:04.:33:07.

your surroundings, it is a first- person adventure that you are

:33:07.:33:10.

capturing. What do you think? agree it is people documenting

:33:10.:33:15.

themselves. I also think it is a sign of cultural anxiousness. We

:33:15.:33:18.

have been through a period of a couple of hundred years where the

:33:18.:33:28.

self has been very important to us, and in tearority we arep told by

:33:28.:33:34.

modern novelist we should be looking into the subjects and we

:33:34.:33:39.

have found there is not much there maybe! We are at a moment where

:33:39.:33:43.

maybe we are not trusting something actually happened unless it is

:33:43.:33:45.

shared. Proving the girl waiting for the popstars said you have to

:33:45.:33:48.

prove it! You have to prove that you did that. That is what those

:33:48.:33:53.

people were doing with the Queen. The actual experience of being in

:33:53.:33:56.

the vicinity of the Queen is probably quite bland. But you want

:33:56.:34:02.

to be somebody who has been near the Queen. That makes it more bland

:34:02.:34:07.

if all you have of the event is some image on a smartphone. That's

:34:07.:34:12.

the terrible horror and emptiness of post-modernity. There was

:34:12.:34:15.

something interesting that the National Portrait Gallery owner

:34:15.:34:19.

described when he was talking about the exhibition, and he said it will

:34:19.:34:23.

allow people to look more closely at something, a portrait or an

:34:23.:34:26.

image. Part of the experience of capturing something like that on

:34:26.:34:29.

your smartphone, these things happen in a split second. The Queen

:34:29.:34:33.

walks by. Save it for later. You can. The Queen walks by you blink

:34:33.:34:37.

and you miss it, this way you can see it, it is slightly different

:34:37.:34:39.

from the person next to you, that is unique. That is interesting, you

:34:40.:34:43.

can have a conversation about that. Then you take it away, not only

:34:43.:34:47.

bragging rights, yes I was there, but also you can take a closer look

:34:47.:34:52.

and really experience it a bit more. As a memory trigger for whatever

:34:52.:34:57.

was going on at that time. In the same way that we have taken as long

:34:57.:35:03.

as we have been able to take photos we have been capturing content, we

:35:03.:35:09.

happen to be putting it into a digital medium as opposed to a an

:35:09.:35:13.

album that we stick in a dusty corner. And don't look at for 20

:35:13.:35:18.

years? Absolutely, they are memory triggers in the same way objects we

:35:18.:35:22.

acquire, snow globe or themables that we collect when we are

:35:22.:35:27.

travelling. It is the same thing that will transport us

:35:27.:35:29.

psychologically, intellectually, back to a particular time where we

:35:29.:35:33.

were, when we were, when those things were capturing. If you don't

:35:33.:35:36.

look at it what's the point? What's the point of having the little

:35:36.:35:42.

themables or the snow globes you got when you - themable or snow

:35:42.:35:47.

globes you got on holiday. At least it will sit on your mantle piece

:35:47.:35:50.

and you know where you got the ridiculous thing? If you are in the

:35:50.:35:53.

pub or down at the library or at school and you pick up your phone

:35:53.:35:57.

and you flick through and you can compare and share with the people

:35:57.:36:07.
:36:07.:36:09.

that you are with. Say here I was. It is all about showing off? It is

:36:09.:36:12.

creating an identity and capturing a sense of the self as a narrative.

:36:12.:36:16.

Where you were as an individual back then and where you are going

:36:16.:36:19.

now. I sense a degree of intellectual scepticism? All we

:36:20.:36:25.

have been doing is talking about what photography is. We have always

:36:25.:36:28.

done that. What is interesting is behaviour has changed and the sheer

:36:28.:36:32.

volume of material we are creating has changed. Virtually some

:36:32.:36:35.

extraordinary percentage of all the photographs that have ever been

:36:35.:36:40.

taken have been taken in the last three or four years since cellphone

:36:40.:36:44.

cameras became ubiquitous. My concern is that not so much with

:36:44.:36:47.

people taking photographs, let everybody take as many as pe they

:36:47.:36:53.

want. But it is with the -- as many as they want. But it is our

:36:53.:36:55.

collision through photography, through network technologies of

:36:55.:37:04.

various kinds in making a kind of eye penopticon that we are now

:37:04.:37:08.

living in a world where we are always on, where there is always at

:37:08.:37:13.

least the potential of being watched and of being recorded, of

:37:13.:37:17.

our behaviour not being private or interior, being something that we

:37:17.:37:22.

are performing. This isn't nice?I don't think it is nice at all. I

:37:22.:37:26.

think the cultural conversation about it is lagging behind the

:37:26.:37:31.

technology a long way. The notion of performing is a new thing, we

:37:31.:37:35.

stick a particular T-shirt on and we walk down the street. We perform

:37:35.:37:39.

every time we use particular lingo. We indicate and express to other

:37:39.:37:42.

people, whoever they may be, that we are part of a particular group.

:37:42.:37:47.

I think that's part of what's going on. How it is evolving and how it

:37:47.:37:50.

is being captured and how we deal with it in the long-term is

:37:50.:37:54.

something that's certainly up for discussion, and we need to develop

:37:54.:37:59.

that conversation. Thank you both of you. What

:37:59.:38:02.

responsibility do we owe to asylum- seeker, it is a question which

:38:02.:38:04.

almost every wealthier country in the world has to answer.

:38:04.:38:09.

Historically, as the land of second chances, Australia, the called

:38:09.:38:13.

"lucky country" was built on immigration. But the same question

:38:13.:38:18.

has raised even more livid questions than here. They cooked up

:38:18.:38:20.

a mechanism called the Pacific solution, which meant that people

:38:20.:38:24.

who had risked their lives crossing the world to get to Australia ended

:38:24.:38:28.

up being held not in Australia at all, but on an island in another

:38:28.:38:37.

country all together. Our reporter has had exclusive access.

:38:37.:38:42.

We are not animal, we are human. These remote tropical island

:38:42.:38:46.

detention centres were supposed to be a thing of the past. But now

:38:46.:38:48.

they are back at the centre of Australia's toxic immigration

:38:48.:38:54.

debate. They are intended as a deterrent,

:38:54.:39:01.

to stop boat people heading for Australian shores. A perilous

:39:01.:39:10.

journey which for scores has ended in disaster and death. But the

:39:10.:39:13.

policy known as the Pacific solution has been slammed for being

:39:13.:39:20.

inhumane. We have become the first news organisation to gain access to

:39:20.:39:24.

a detention centre where asylum seekers from Sri Lanka, Afghanistan,

:39:24.:39:28.

Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, and the Palestinian territories are being

:39:28.:39:34.

held. But are its new low- constructed

:39:34.:39:37.

accommodation blocks easing the psychological pain of indefinite

:39:37.:39:45.

detention. In tackling its boat people problem,

:39:45.:39:49.

the biggest power in the South Pacific has looked to its smallest

:39:49.:39:54.

neighbour for help. Nauru is one of the tiniest Republics in the world,

:39:54.:39:59.

and also the most remote. In the hey day of its mining boom in the

:39:59.:40:04.

1970s and 1980s, it was per capita one of the richest nations in the

:40:04.:40:10.

world. Nowadays it is one of the poorest.

:40:10.:40:16.

So despite its tropical setting and swaying palms, it is far from

:40:16.:40:19.

paradise. Its jagged coastline reinforces a sense of isolation and

:40:19.:40:29.
:40:29.:40:31.

enclosure. Last September 30 Sri Lankan asylum

:40:31.:40:35.

seekers touched down here. The first to arrive since the Labour

:40:35.:40:40.

Government shut down the Howard era detention centre in 2007. With no

:40:40.:40:44.

time to build a proper detention centre, the asylum seekers were

:40:44.:40:54.
:40:54.:40:55.

housed initially in army tents. The most makeshift of accommodation.

:40:55.:41:00.

Keiren Keke, a trained doctor, is Nauru's former Foreign Minister. He

:41:00.:41:03.

says the timetable imposed by the Australian Government was

:41:03.:41:09.

ridiculous. There was a very, very strong push to have a centre

:41:09.:41:13.

operating in whatever form, as quickly as possible. This was a bit

:41:13.:41:20.

of a rush job? It was too quick, the set-up was too quick. Our

:41:20.:41:23.

Government told the Australians that we felt it was too quick. In

:41:23.:41:29.

any of the discussions that we had previously the minimum time frames

:41:29.:41:33.

that we are talking about were three months to be able to have

:41:33.:41:37.

some basic facility operating. And certainly ouric pecktation was more

:41:37.:41:42.

on the lines of -- our expectation was six months to have more of a

:41:42.:41:46.

significant fashion and operation, to have something up within a month

:41:46.:41:55.

was really unrealistic. We have seen the consequences of that.

:41:55.:41:59.

wasn't long before daily protests erupted, as these pictures filmed

:41:59.:42:03.

secretly, and first broadcast on the Australian broadcasting

:42:03.:42:07.

corporation show. The conditions are intensely hot and humid. The

:42:07.:42:15.

centre's tent city was overcrowded. The uncertainty of indefinite

:42:15.:42:21.

detention inflicted psychological damage. For some it was unbearable.

:42:21.:42:25.

Asylum seekers sewed together their lips in silent protest, sometimes

:42:25.:42:30.

using paper clips as needles. There have also been suicide attempts.

:42:30.:42:36.

This man, whose identity we can't reveal tried to hang himself. His

:42:36.:42:42.

neck was badly injured. This worker from inside the camp, who wants to

:42:42.:42:48.

protect his identity was appalled by what he saw. The men are

:42:48.:42:51.

frustrated in Nauru, there is a sense of helplessness and

:42:51.:42:55.

desperation. For many of them the way they express this frustration

:42:55.:43:01.

is through self-harm and suicide attempts. One man said to me "we

:43:01.:43:05.

can choose to take it out on other people but we don't, we take it out

:43:05.:43:10.

upon ourselves to express our pain". Men are cutting themselves, burning

:43:10.:43:15.

themselves with cigarettes. We have had men attempt to commit suicide

:43:15.:43:20.

using bed sheets, using the ropes off tents. For them they see no

:43:20.:43:24.

future and they see no hope of leaving. They have been in Nauru

:43:24.:43:27.

for nine months and they have no idea if it will be another nine

:43:27.:43:35.

months or another three years or another five years. The track

:43:35.:43:41.

inland to the detention centre passes through the island's

:43:41.:43:48.

phosphate mining fields. A landscape that is eerie and hostile.

:43:48.:43:53.

Then there is the thick jungle that separates and camouflages it from

:43:53.:44:00.

the outside world. Up until now the journey for those covering the

:44:00.:44:03.

Pacific solution beat has stopped here at the entrance. The

:44:03.:44:08.

Australian Government has imposed the strict media ban. We have

:44:08.:44:14.

become the first news organisation to be allowed inside. Australia's

:44:14.:44:18.

department for immigration clearly wanted us to see how Nauru's tent

:44:18.:44:24.

city has been replaced by permanent accommodation. The $100 million

:44:24.:44:28.

project has been designed, not so much with comfort in mind, but

:44:28.:44:31.

certainly more civility. Under the strict stipulations of our visit,

:44:32.:44:35.

we are not allowed to identify anyone in the centre. Although one

:44:35.:44:39.

of the Australian Government's chief concerns about letting us in

:44:39.:44:46.

was that it would look too nice, negating its deterrent effect.

:44:46.:44:50.

There is no fence or razor wire, but the jungle creates a natural

:44:50.:44:56.

barrier. It is currently home for over 400 people, all of them men,

:44:56.:45:01.

again we are not allowed to show their faces, in case their asylum

:45:01.:45:05.

claims are rejected and they are sent home. Over 90% of boat people

:45:05.:45:11.

turn out to be bona fide refugees. They are subject to the Australian

:45:11.:45:16.

Government's new "no advantage" principle, which could see boat

:45:16.:45:20.

people detained for up to five years, so they aren't seen asylum

:45:20.:45:25.

seeking queue jumpers. What we want to do apparently is to make sure

:45:25.:45:29.

selves look even less desirable than the Taliban. Julian Burnside

:45:29.:45:33.

is one of Australia's leading human rights lawyers, and represents a

:45:33.:45:37.

number of boat people held on Nauru. We want people to prefer to face

:45:37.:45:41.

the Taliban than to face us. I'm not sure I want to see my country

:45:41.:45:46.

fall that low and yet that seems to be the course they are following.

:45:46.:45:49.

If the Pacific solution is supposed to be a deterrent, it will only

:45:49.:45:53.

work as long as everyone who sets out knows about it, that is not a

:45:53.:45:58.

certainty by any means, and we have to look more frightening than the

:45:58.:46:06.

perils they are escaping. Unbeknown to these young Nauruan, their

:46:06.:46:10.

island has become part of Australia's political game, and a

:46:10.:46:20.

brutal one for that. With an election set for December, border

:46:20.:46:26.

issues are serious, it is seen as a vote-winner. The revival of the

:46:26.:46:30.

Pacific solution for Australians is an embarrassing reversal. When

:46:30.:46:34.

ministers ended the policy they described it as cynical and costly

:46:34.:46:39.

and ultimately unsuccessful exercise. But the Gillard

:46:39.:46:43.

Government fears being seen soft on asylum-seeker, especially at a time

:46:43.:46:46.

when one of the Conservative politicians most ringing slogans is

:46:46.:46:51.

"stop the boats", the return to the Pacific solution was born of

:46:51.:46:54.

political weakness. The trouble is the tough policy hasn't stopped the

:46:54.:46:58.

Government slide in the polls, and even more crucially it hasn't

:46:58.:47:05.

stopped the boats. Since announcing its controversial new approach over

:47:05.:47:09.

21,000 asylum seekers have been intercepted in Australian waters.

:47:09.:47:14.

In 340 boats. So the embattled Labour Government

:47:14.:47:20.

is itself all at sea. For its Conservative opponents, Nauru is

:47:20.:47:24.

part of a failed border protection strategy. For many on the

:47:24.:47:28.

Australian left the detention centre stands as a landmark to

:47:28.:47:36.

their country's heartlessness towards boat people.

:47:36.:47:41.

We asked the Australian Government for a response to his report, but

:47:41.:47:51.
:47:51.:47:57.

they declined. That's all we have Good evening, we have one more

:47:57.:48:00.

humid night on the way, from Friday night it will be a little bit

:48:00.:48:03.

fresher. As far as Friday goes, it is going to be quite a good day

:48:03.:48:07.

across the majority of the UK, sunshine around. Maybe one or two

:48:07.:48:10.

showers, but essentially it is a fine day, however later on in the

:48:10.:48:13.

day there will be thicker cloud and some rain getting in just to the

:48:13.:48:17.

west of Northern Ireland. For Scotland, this is 4.00, plenty of

:48:17.:48:21.

sunshine around the north, maybe a couple of light sprinkles of rain,

:48:21.:48:27.

nothing more than that. Across the border, England, Pennines, here are

:48:27.:48:32.

the isolated showers -- thundery, maybe even heavy in one or two

:48:32.:48:35.

places. The vast majority of the country across the south of the UK

:48:35.:48:38.

will enjoy the fine weather. For a lot of us it will feel warmer

:48:38.:48:41.

because we are going to have a bit more sunshine compared to what we

:48:41.:48:45.

have just had today. You can see the fine weather extends into the

:48:45.:48:49.

south west and Wales too. A scattering of cloud here and there.

:48:49.:48:52.

Fresher on the boast around 15 degrees, let's have a look at the

:48:52.:48:55.

end of the week and into the weekend and other places. Belfast

:48:55.:48:58.

it does freshen up here by the time we get to Saturday. Temperatures

:48:58.:49:02.

dip down to 15 degrees, the wind will be stronger too, the same goes

:49:02.:49:07.

for many other areas, the big temperature drop in Birmingham from

:49:07.:49:11.

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