Browse content similar to 19/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
A flagrant disservice to patients We don't even know who said that, | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
he's referred to in the report as "Mr F", where why are they allowed | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
to hide behind the Data Protection Act. Can the boss of the Care | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
Quality Commission explain how an organisation to serve the public | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
went rotten? The Chancellor of the Exchequer | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
starts the process of privatisation for one of the banks bailed out by | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
the taxpayer. He claims everything is going swimmingly. Let me say | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
this tonight, the British economy is healing. We are moving from | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
rescue to recovery. But is the real achievement of | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
George Osborne to have changed the face of public spending in Britain. | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
And what would the men who fought at D-Day have made of it? Families | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
of soldiers who died on active service are given the right to sue | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
for negligence. Can combat really be reconciled with the Human Rights | :01:13. | :01:23. | |
:01:23. | :01:25. | ||
This is the long and short of it, an organisation supposed to look | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
after the interests of the patient knows there is something wrong with | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
a treatment centre but in order to look after its own interests it | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
doesn't publish its findings. Then a new broom comes in, the | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
instruction to suppress is itself disclosed but with the key names | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
obscured. Cover-up on cover-up. The Health Secretary apologised this | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
afternoon, not that it did anything much to explain quite how it all | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
happened. This is not the first time the | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
spotlight has fallen on healthcare regulator, the Care Quality | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
Commission. It faced criticism over neglect of patients in Mid- | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
Staffordshire, over the treatment of residents at the Winterbourne | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
View and Ashcourt Care Home. An investigation into a number of | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
babies dying at Morecambe Bay Hospital Trust made familiar | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
reading. Families struggling to be heard over bureaucracy. New born | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
James Titcombe died in 2008, his father has led efforts to expose | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
the full extent of failings at the maternity unit, and the role of the | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
regulator ever since. Whilst I recognise there were obviously | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
failures in the regulation, I didn't realise the extent. It is no | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
exaggeration I felt physically ill when I read about the cover-up. | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
Because that was just such an outrageous thing to have happened. | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
Today's report found evidence of a deliberate cover-up of a critical | :02:58. | :03:08. | |
:03:08. | :03:13. | ||
One senior manager, talking about that review is even said to have | :03:13. | :03:23. | |
:03:23. | :03:28. | ||
At a CQC board meeting today, the main whistblower, Kay Sheldon spoke | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
emotionally. I have been subjected to the most appalling treatment. | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
I'm not going to say any more about it. But I think that in itself | :03:35. | :03:44. | |
should shame the organisation. Indeed higher. This is how events | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
unfolded, in November 2008 new born James Titcombe dies at Furness | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
General Hospital. In June 2009 the CQC increased Morecambe Bay's risk | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
rating to red. In April 2010 it decreased the rating to green. In | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
October 2011 the internal review was ordered. In March last year | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
came the apparent decision to delete the internal report. | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
Today's report says the individual concerned denies the allegations. | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
In parliament today the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, apologised | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
to the families. Saying events at Morecambe Bay should never have | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
been covered up and should never have happened in the first place. | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
Later the gloves came off, as he and Shadow Health Secretary, Andy | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
Burnham exchanged criticism. Earlier the Prime Minister said | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
that there should be always support for whistblowers, and he was right | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
to say so. But there are serious doubts about whether that has | :04:42. | :04:52. | |
:04:52. | :04:56. | ||
happened in this case. There were concerns raised by another | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
whistleblower and there were questions raised about her | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
character. Can the minister say there was appropriate concerns | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
raised. Jeremy Hunt turned the tables on Labour who set up the CQC | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
in the first place. He talks about accountability, the opposition if | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
they were to give confidence that they really took the issues raised | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
today seriously, they would recognise it was fundamentally | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
wrong to set up an inspection regime, not being done by | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
specialists, where the same person is inspecting a dental clinic, a | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
slimming clinic, a hospital or GP practice perhaps in the same month. | :05:32. | :05:40. | |
That may have contributed to why it was that in 2009 the CQC decided | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
not to investigate the maternity deaths in Morecambe Bay. There was | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
clearly some battlement amongst MPs today as to why the names of senior | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
figures at the CQC had been redacted from the report. Whether | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
this was down to some possible legal action by the individuals | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
involved, or under a constraint due to the data protection legislation | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
as the CQC said earlier. This feels like a public authority hiding | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
behind the Data Protection Act. It is very common. But you have to go | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
by what the law says. And the law is very clear, you have to process | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
data fairly, you have to take into account the people's expectation of | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
confidentiality, patient data obvious, but officials, there you | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
have to apply a public interest test. I'm not convinced that the | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
Care Quality Commission have been correctly advised. I think they are | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
going to have to look at this again. We have to have accountability when | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
there is such poor practice in our public bodies. How can people be | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
allowed to walk away with full pensions, no investigation into | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
their conduct or blot on their copy book? Allowing them, potentially, | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
to walk into a job with another regulator or the NHS. There is now | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
a new management team in place at the CQC. The former chairman, Dame | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
Jo Williams, and former chief executive, Cynthia Bower, left the | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
organisation last year. An independent public inquiry, | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
Stafford-style, is now under way. The Trust itself also has a new | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
board which today acknowledged past failings and said it is committed | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
to providing safe care. The CQC hopes today's report draws a line | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
in the sand for them. But as the patients' champion, the regulator | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
must reassure the public it will act differently from now on. | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
David Behan is the chief executive of the Care Quality Commission, | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
Jamie Reed is a Shadow Health Minister and Heather Wood is a | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
former NHS manager who worked at the CQC's precursor, the Healthcare | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
Commission, where she led the investigation into avoidable deaths | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
at Stafford hospital. She went on to work at the CQC, but left in | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
2010 after the national investigations team was abolished. | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
Can I talk to you for a minute first, David Behan, why have you | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
excluded these names? The first thing to say is we are committed to | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
openness and transparency in our work. This is why I commissioned | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
this report in the first place. This isn't a problem we want. We | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
want to be absolutely clear about what we did and we are accounting | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
for this, the facts are not in dispute. It has come to the | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
question you asked, I was advised to put people's personal data would | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
be a breach of their rights. We decided today that we will review | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
that legal advice and we have commissioned a review of that legal | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
advice to see if we can put this information into the public domain. | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
We do not want this problem. independent commissioner says it is | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
not a problem at all? Well the only thing I can say, Jeremy, is we | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
commissioned this report, we published it today. He's more | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
likely to know? We published it today warts and all. You excluded | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
the names? We have been open and transparent about where we failed | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
the people in Morecambe Bay, we have apologised for that today. We | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
are looking and reviewing the advice we have been given to see if | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
we can put that right. You accept your legal advice was duff? | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
accepted the legal advice I was given, I acted in good faith. | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
Information Commissioner is surely likely to know? I have listened to | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
what the Information Commissioner has said. He's saying review the | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
advice, I have said earlier this evening we will review the advice. | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
He said unambiguously the advice you have been given is wrong and | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
that you are hiding behind it? We are not hiding behind it. | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
wouldn't have commissioned the report in the first place, we are | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
clear we need to account for what we did. You will published the | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
names tomorrow will you? I will take legal advice tomorrow on | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
publishing the names. You have just been told by the Information | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
Commissioner it's a croc of rubbish? I'm committed to openness | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
and transparency. No you are not, if you were committed to that you | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
would publish the names? I have been advised legally of the | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
difficulties in publishing the names and putting people's personal | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
information out there. Legal advice is never binding, it is up to you | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
to make a decision to accept it or not? It is and on the advice we | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
have published the facts. As people have recorded today all the facts | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
are in the public domain, with the exception of people's names. I have | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
acted on the legal advice and tomorrow we will review it. Despite | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
the fact you have been told by the one man in the country who is in | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
the position to know exactly what the law says, and has said your | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
legal advice is wrong, if they come back tomorrow and say the same | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
thing, you will act the same? will take different legal advice, | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
not the same people who advised me. We will take alternative legal | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
advice to make sure we can act in openness and transparency. We want | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
to put it right. I have an important job and people need trust | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
and confidence in what we do. My job is to restore that trust and | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
confidence in CQC. Can you tell me as the new broom who came in, what | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
went wrong there? I think the story that is revealed in the report is | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
one of a dysfuntional relationship between the board and the senior | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
leadership. I think that is what led to this absence of openness and | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
transparency. And we're determined to put this right. We published a | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
new strategy. We have replaced the board, we are bringing in a new | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
executive team. It was rotten, wasn't it? There were changes we | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
needed to make. What was happening was not acceptable, the model as | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
the Secretary of State stated was not the right model and we are | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
making changes to that and we have begun those changes, we are | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
determined to see them through. seem to suggest it is some sort of | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
managerial malfunction. There was something deeply rotten in the | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
organisation, wasn't there? culture that is demonstrated by | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
this report is not the culture I want to see in any organisation I'm | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
responsible for. Why can't you call a spade a spade. You don't, what | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
don't you want to see? I want to see an organisation. What don't you | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
want to see that you found there? don't want to see people not | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
declaring reports in the public domain. I want us to be open and | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
transparent and account for what we do with people trusting our | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
judgments. Let's broaden this out a bit if we may, do stay with us. Are | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
you surs priced by what has been revealed? I'm not one bit surprised. | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
I mean what has been revealed is totally shocking. But in a way I'm | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
pleased that the lid has final ly kufpl -- finally come off the | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
rotten edifice that was CQC. have used the word "rotten", | :12:20. | :12:29. | |
disputed a moment or two ago. Why is it rotten? When CQC was set up | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
originally I'm sure it was in the business of suppressing anything | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
that would ever look like another Mid- Staffs. I would like to point | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
out I think the CQC was dancing to the tune from the Department of | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
Health and the top of the NHS. are we talking about? We are | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
talking about 2009. Jamie Reed, that was when your party was in | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
Government. It is explicit the link there. It has been made by other | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
people, that this was a corrupt relationship between your | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
Department of Health and the Care Quality Commission? This is an | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
allegation that has been made time and time again. Let's not forget | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
the context. Maybe there is a reason for it. Let's not forget the | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
context of today's report. When the order to cover up was made within | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
the CQC that was after Francis, it was during Francis inquiry, the | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
three-year Francis inquiry that looked at the allegations about the | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
cosy relationships implied found no evidence, in the same way that the | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
Davies Report has found no evidence at all to suggest the kind of | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
relationship between the centre and the CQC was in place. Just because | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
there is no evidence found and published, as we have already seen | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
today, doesn't necessarily mean it didn't exist? It this has been | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
investigated time and time again. As I repeat, the allegations aren't | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
new. Robert Francis looked at this over a three-year period, he looked | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
for the evidence. Extensive evidence was given. It was perhaps | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
the most broad-ranging investigation of its type this | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
country has ever seen. Those allegations didn't stack up. | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
have come in as a new broom, do you see any evidence that there was | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
something wrong with the relationship between the Department | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
of Health under Labour and your organisation? I don't think that's | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
the case in our report, Jeremy. Clearly there was a policy. | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
asking you about what you found? Clearly there was a policy to move | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
towards foundation trust, that is a policy of the last Government and | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
this Government. That is what has been happening. I think this | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
independent report that we commissioned has not found any | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
evidence of interference in any way. If they found it they would have | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
mentioned it. If it wasn't corruption what was the problem? | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
There was clearly a problem with the performance of the CQC. They | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
were just incompetent? Let's have a look at the Government's response | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
to this report. There may be that we had the wrong people in the | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
wrongs positions who couldn't do the job asked of them. There was | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
clearly issues with the trust and the trust management as well. | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
us how these inspections were often carried out, you say you are not | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
surprised? I'm not surprised. I just would like to add that maybe | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
Francis's conclusions might have been a bit different if, in a way, | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
everyone had given an entirely accurate account of things. For | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
example witness after witness at the top of the CQC stood up and | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
said their methodology was robust and registration was done | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
rigorously. We now know that simply wasn't true. So I'm sorry, I don't | :15:29. | :15:37. | |
think one can take the fact that Francis said he didn't find, for | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
example, evidence of bullying by David Nicholson. I would suggest he | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
disregarded some of the evidence he had and he didn't look hard enough. | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
But in my view, of course CQC came in, it completely destroyed the | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
specialist teams, set about this ridiculous generic model of sending | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
anybody into hospital regardless of their background. You know and then | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
it is surprised when things don't show up. Even today this report, | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
partly says that the Trust should have given CQC the earlier | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
specialist report that had been done, that had criticised maternity. | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
I think any team that was worth its salt would have found that report | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
for themselves. Hang on a second, this idea that someone, can be | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
inspecting a dental practice one moment, a slimming clinic the next, | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
some apparatus in a hospital the next, this is ridiculous, isn't it? | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
I agree with you Jeremy, that is why I'm changing it. I have said | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
this from day one, we will move from a generic model to specialist | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
model. Professor Sir Mike Richards will be the first inspector of | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
hospitals. A respected clinician and we will change the model we | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
have in place. Who told you that was supposed to be done like that? | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
Nobody told me. What I have said is we are changing the model of | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
inspection. I inherited an organisation that had a generic | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
model of inspection and we are going to change it. Who created | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
that model? The previous organisation, the previous board of | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
CQC will have to accept responsibility and the executive | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
team for the creation of the model. As will the Labour Government? | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
model of inspection is being used today. There is a review going on | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
into 14 Hospital Trusts, one of which is my own Hospital Trust, | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
north Cumbria University Hospital Trust and this generic model is | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
still being used. You started it? It is made clear by David that the | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
CQC, as the independent regulator. Let's not forget before 1996 there | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
was no hospital regulation whatsoever, they developed this | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
model. One final point, does Labour want the names published tomorrow? | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
We made this clear today in the House of Commons we do want the | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
names published. We want to know who knew what about this in the | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
Department of Health. We want to know about the details of the | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
conversations between the CQC whistleblower and the former | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
Secretary of State. We want to know all the details of this. We don't | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
believe now is the time to draw the line under this, there is a lot | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
more that needs to be answered. Thank you very much all of you. | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
In a moment, can you really fight a war if human rights legislation is | :18:23. | :18:31. | |
applied on the battlefield? Unlike Gordon Brown, who wouldn't be seen | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
dead in them, George Osborne has been wearing a bowtie and dinner | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
jacket since his nanny dropped him off at nursery school. He put them | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
on again tonight to tell the plutocrats of the City of London | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
what he will do with Lloyds Bank, which Gordon Brown spent millions | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
of our money buying a large chunk of. -- billions of our money buying | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
a chunk of. Lloyd's will be sold, it will be privatised, by an | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
institutional placing, so big pension funds get the first grab at | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
buying some of the shares. Eventually down the line, when | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
that's worked, if it has worked, we might have a "tell Sid" moment, | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
where they go to ordinary people and allow them to buy Lloyd's. With | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
RBS there has been vigorous debate behind the scenes and between | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
policy makers, RBS, we have an 81% stake in that, it is massive. That | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
debate has staid the Chancellor's hand from any sign of a politically | :19:28. | :19:34. | |
rushed attempt to get rid of it before the election. I don't want a | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
quick sale of our RBS shares. I want the right sale, the right sale | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
for the British people. I will only sell our stake in RBS when we feel | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
the bank is fully able to support our economy and we get good value | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
for you the taxpayer. In our judgment, when it comes to RBS that | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
moment is some way off. So instead of a rapid sale they will have a | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
rapid review of a proposal to split RBS into a called good bank/bad | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
bank, like with New York. You take the -- Northern Rock. You take the | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
good debts of RBS, which they have signalled is Ulster Bank and some | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
property loans and you sink it into the bank of Britain and the rest of | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
it can be sold off easily. It will be announced tomorrow that RBS is | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
in line of another �12 billion for capital. All the British banks have | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
to raise �25 billion extra. RBS has the biggest problem. You can't sell | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
a bank rapidly when it is already impaired and needs to raise capital. | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
So they are not. Did he have anything to say about MPs' calls | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
for bankers to be sent to jail? reported on this a bit tonight. | :20:51. | :20:52. | |
Overnight the Parliamentary Commission has come forward with | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
the proposal to make new law, so that specific people, in specific | :20:57. | :21:06. | |
banks are sent to jail if they fail on specific duties. In a way this | :21:06. | :21:14. | |
significant flals the end of struck -- signifys the end of structural | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
banks remedies. Some people in the City have welcomed it. And the | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
Chancellor certainly did today. have already supported the | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
recommendations on new criminal sanctions and cancelling bonuses | :21:24. | :21:31. | |
where banks are bailed out. And let me be clear, where legislation is | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
needed the Banking Bill, currently before parliament, will be amended | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
to ensure the recommendations can be quickly enacted. The other thing | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
they have done is to tell the Office of Fair Trading to bring | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
forward a review. They will look at the impact on the high street and | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
on lending to small businesses of breaking up Lloyd's, breaking up | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
RBS, bringing new entrants. They will do a bit of rapid structural | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
reform of high street lending. They realise there is not enough lending | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
to banks. The other bit of news is this was the swansong of Mervyn | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
King, the Governor of the Bank of England, he has an elevated to the | :22:07. | :22:14. | |
peerage, you will be pleased to know. He promised to do "ruthless | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
truth-telling". Maybe now for the first time ever he might sit in the | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
studio and you can interview him now. I look forward to it. I'm | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
sorry you weren't there I would have liked to have seen that. | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
George Osborne has been running the economy for the past three years, | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
he's not exactly the most popular politician in the country. It's | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
quite clear his strategy for sort ought the economy hasn't worked or | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
yet at least. But he has made huge changes, not least to the state | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
itself, which all the other parties in politics are having to adjust to. | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
Is it possible that his impact may be far greater than most of us | :22:50. | :22:57. | |
recognise? Time was when the Chancellor, | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
George Osborne, was accused of cutting the British state to | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
ribbons. But with the Labour Party's recent pledge to match the | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
Chancellor's spending plans, the path cut by George Osborne's | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
scissors looks to become permanent. Possibly unintentionally, the | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
Government may have cut a new shape for the British state. The numbers | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
you are going to get next week are the first pitch by the governing | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
parties ahead of the next general election. And actually, really, it | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
is probably the first time ever that governing parties have gone | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
into an election telling the public they will be cutting their public | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
services and exactly where. He's looking to save something like an | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
additional �10 billion in public service spending for the year | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
2015/16, the year directly after the next election. That's �10 | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
billion on top of what have been five years of the steepest spending | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
cuts we have ever seen. But this time it is getting quite vicious. | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
Newsnight understands that in order for the Treasury to cajole various | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
departments across Whitehall into settling their cuts, they have what | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
has become known as, across the Government, a Treasury blacklist. | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
So this is all sorts of embarrassing stories that they will | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
allow to be released as and when they want to force departments to | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
settle. So you have already heard about the MoD having more horses | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
than soldiers, but did you know that Vince Cable's department is | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
supposed to support a bursary for the performing arts and that Philip | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
Hammond owns quite a few goats! This is the problem, the Government | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
has ring-fenced department central to the political message. | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
International development and health at the top here. This has | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
meant deep cuts elsewhere. Look further down this chart. If these | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
ring-fences are kept in place then according to analysis by the | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
Resolution Foundation, Britain's Foreign Office is slashed by 65% | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
and the Home Office nearly 50% smaller. | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
For the Foreign Office it might have seen its budget cut by as much | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
as a half, where as somewhere like the Department for International | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
Development could have seen its budget go up by a quarter. The | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
department for health simply is a ring-fenced budget. It looks like | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
it is going to grow to become as much as a third of public spending. | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
There are many people across Whitehall who agree that ring- | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
fencing some departments is very damaging for the other ones. | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
Including, apparently, the Chancellor George Osborne. He is | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
said to be well aware of the problems that are beginning to be | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
caused. There are big ring-fences in public spending. The biggest is | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
the National Health Service, effectively pension spendinging is | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
also ring-fenced. Put those two together and you have a very large | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
chunk, a very large chunk of public spending not being cut back. That | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
means just arithmetically if you want to save two or three per cent | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
across the piece, if you are protecting a third or total, you | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
need to take 4-6% from everything else. So a refashioned state, but | :26:09. | :26:15. | |
is this job of cutting back the state nearly done? There was an | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
expectation back in 2010/11 when the coalition came in that this was | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
going to be a one-parliament issue, that we would get the spending | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
fixed by the time of the next election the economy would be back | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
on track and we would be discussing different things. It is still | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
around. To meet George Osborne's deficit target, as well as 2015's | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
�11 billion of cut, there will be �13 billion in each subsequent year. | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
The time may have come for something completely different. | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
Every year a Government spends about �700 billion on the state. | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
Half of that is this expenditure. It is departmental and it is so far | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
very heavy cut by this Government. What about this, it is more than | :27:02. | :27:09. | |
half and actually is rising. It is called AME, but you could describe | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
it as discretionary spending. It has many pots within it, but a | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
large part of it is welfare payments. The kind of payments that | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
go up when people have a demand for them. This pot so far hasn't been | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
capped. But now all three parties agree that if you want to stop huge | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
damage to departments, you have to look here. There is a clear trade | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
off take more and more money out of Government departments and either | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
increasing taxes or cutting various benefits. Now, clearly any | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
Government coming in will use a combination of measures, but to | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
give you an illustration of the sorts of issues we are talking | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
about here. In order to maintain the current rates of cuts in | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
departmental spending, not doing any more than that, just | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
maintaining the current pace will take about �10 billion of further | :27:57. | :28:05. | |
welfare savings or tax rises in 2016/17 and 17/18. That is a 10% | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
cut in the tax credit budget. We are looking at �9 billion being | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
taken out of tax credits by 2018, that is a further hit that tax | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
credits can't probably stand. If you think about tax it is 1% | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
increase in the standard rate of VAT, increasing to 21% in 2016, | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
would raise �11 billion over two years. In the next parliament, | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
politicians will reach for these different kinds of levers. Because | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
try as this current Government might, while they may have reshaped | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
public spending, by just cutting departments they have struggled to | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
bring down its cost. But none the less, in making the Labour Party | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
agree to welfare cuts, this Chancellor has changed the shape of | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
Britain's political debate. And in just a few years he's also been | :28:53. | :29:03. | |
:29:03. | :29:05. | ||
changing the shape of the state. That was Allegra st. Tratton | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
reporting there. We are joined by the previous | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
adviser for Ed Miliband and now work for a charity focusing on | :29:14. | :29:20. | |
services for children. The former director of the Centre for Policy | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
Studies. And Danny Finkelstein is executive editor at the Times. You | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
can start, how significant do you think is this achievement in | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
changing the pattern of public spending? I think we have seen a | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
big change in the debate on public spending, just in the last two week, | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
with Ed Balls saying, in a rather muted way, that he's going to try | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
to match or start from George Osborne's position and then Ed | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
Miliband coming out and saying that on welfare. It is an | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
acknowledgement there is no going back, that it is impossible for any | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
in coming Government to start spending a lot more money. I think | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
there has been a big shift in the responsibilities of the state and | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
in the cost to the date already. We will see more of that. It is a huge | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
change isn't it, when you look at what your party, what the Labour | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
Party used to talk about. Only three or four years ago. Only | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
actually about a year ago on the question of child benefit, for | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
example. This is an amazing change? Danny's right. The big issue, there | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
is no debate here around the size of the state and where it needs to | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
get to and the fact it needs to be smaller. I think all the parties | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
are agreed on that. I think where the Labour Party would find | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
difference with George Osborne though is in the way he's making | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
these cuts. I think he's making a couple of biggerors. The first is | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
really around equity. And he's doing things that are politically | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
savvy around welfare. But aren't necessarily fair. So he's | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
protecting pensioner benefits, some of which go to really affluent | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
pensioners and it is really working families that are taking the brunt | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
of the cuts. Four out of every five pounds of welfare cuts are | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
happening to families in work that's very tough. The second area | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
where I think he's making big mistake, is he's making cuts that | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
save money in the short-term but will store up problems for the | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
state in the long-term. By that I mean things like the Future Jobs | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
Fund, spending on job guarantees for unemployed young people. We | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
know that youth unemployment carries huge cuts. Cuts to things | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
like early years centres and children's centres. That stores up | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
costs for the state. Cuts to social care that puts pressure on the NHS. | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
You are shaking your head, it doesn't feel like that to you? | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
premise of this conversation is we have seen a radical reshaping of | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
the state, we just haven't. There has been a reshaping of public | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
spending clearly? It is moved in the sense that it is moved around. | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
Departmental spending. OK, but this is no reshaping of the state. | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
George Osborne came to power after a decade in which Gordon Brown had | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
allowed public spending to explode. Health spending had nearly doubled | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
in ten years. Clearly and one out of every four pounds was debt was | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
being borrowed in order to fund that. It is interesting, looking | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
back, actually, there is a statement that George Osborne | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
issued as the criteria for his first Spending Review in 2010, | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
after the election. And the first question was in effect should the | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
state be funding this activity at all? He was attempting at that | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
point and in certain low the rhetoric there to reverse this | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
discussion -- certainly in the rhetoric to say should Government | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
be doing that? We haven't seen departments closed or any big | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
changes since then. We see the debt continuing to rise. Go on. You have | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
to have political consent, but there have been very big changes, | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
tuition fees is a very big change. Moving something to basically | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
private payment. Privatisation of prisons. The NHS reforms. It is | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
interesting though, because tuition fees, it is a good example, some | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
experts are saying because the Government's made such optimistic | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
assumptions about its new policy, it could end up costing a lot more | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
than the Government has predicted. I want to bring in a visual aid | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
here, if we may. Let's have a look at this, a graph shortly will | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
appear on the wall here. There it is, changing state spending. It is | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
almost impossible to read in rather brilliant fashion. But actually I | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
think viewers at home can see it. But the green on the left of it, | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
that's NHS spending. Under this current configuration, look it goes | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
up from about a quarter to over, nearly a third, almost exactly a | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
third, now that's what happens, isn't it, when you have some areas | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
that are ring-fenced and other areas that aren't? This was | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
politically mandated. The British people wanted that. They wanted to | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
protect schools, they wanted to protect...What Do you mean they | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
wanted to? I don't think they would have elected the Conservative Party | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
even as a minority component in the Government without that promise. | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
But it stall everything else? shifts expenditure into a service | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
that lots of people value hugely. It means you have to do things like | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
cap welfare, frankly. It is an area where spending is inevitably going | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
to go on rising,, the structural reforms we have seen have not cut | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
cost, they haven't actually looked at what the health service is doing. | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
And whether it needs to be doing what it is doing. It is simply | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
building. The problem there is that when you have an area like that for | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
spending it will go on and on and getting bigger. It is unsustainable | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
isn't it? I completely think it is. I believe that this next round of | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
spending in 2017, is going to require a big look at functions. | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
But you have to take the public with you each step of the way. And | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
there have already been big changes in functions. Capping welfare, a | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
battle that has been won, capping people's welfare, benefit bills, | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
the reform for housing benefit, the move to universal benefits. You | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
can't do everything in one period in Government. You have to take | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
people with you as you do it. Where I think we are nearly at the limit | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
of public acceptance of this, but public acceptance has been retained. | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
One other thing, one other effect, public spending hasn't really | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
reduceed very much. But what has happened, let's look at this chart | :35:17. | :35:27. | |
here. What it shows is the Green Line is people who average spending | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
per non-pensioner, and the pink line is pensioners. It is obvious | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
who is doing well, the people receiving from the state are | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
getting wealthier and wealthier, and the people paying in are | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
getting poorer and poorer? I think that is right. I think it raises a | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
real issue which is pensioner benefits, some going to affluent | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
pensioners is being protected. are a tiny minority. This is a | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
trivial amount of money involved here. There are lots of pensioners | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
who earn in excess, who have earnings in excess of the medium | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
wage. That is something that I think Labour has some space to talk | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
about now, now that the Labour Party has said. How many?Well they | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
have said they would look at cutting Winter Fuel Payment for the | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
top 5% of pensioner. I think they could go bigger with that and they | :36:12. | :36:19. | |
could save more money on that. can't go on like this h people | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
working are paying for people not working? The Government is | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
proposing a universal pension, for all its philosophical merits and it | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
will guarantee to benefit those who save and end means testing for | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
pensions, it will be extremely expensive to fund. With rising | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
numbers of pensioners and only slight change to pensionable age | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
this is an explosion of state spending. For people who have | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
become pensioners there is political scope to make changes. If | :36:45. | :36:52. | |
you take money away from pensioners good luck to you. It is very easy | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
to propose policies that sound completely correct and get no | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
political consent for them. The trick here is to bring public | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
spending down whilst keeping the public at least broadly on side. | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
And you need, with pensions, you are going to need to do this as | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
people become pensioners. The problem is pensioners vote? | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
Absolutely. Try to take money away from current he can sitsing tension | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
pensioners, I can see the economic case for it, you can summon up the | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
courage and do t but really you have to be politically sensible. | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
Sooner or later politicians have to get off their knees and create a | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
state for somebody other than those who depend on them? Margaret | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
Thatcher when she fought against the trade unions, she did to win | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
against them not just to fight them. It is to get public spending down | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
and keep the public on side. Not merely to say this is how you slash | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
it. We are not getting public spending down. George Osborne is | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
very worried about keeping the public on side, clearly, and | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
building up to the next election, but he clearly has not tackled the | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
debt problem or the size of the state. He hasn't reconfigured the | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
argument as a radical Government. We have to put the NHS figures in | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
context as well. It is a tight settlement for the NHS. The best | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
minds in the NHS should be focused on how you reconfigure, as Jill | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
said. We have a massive structural reform going on that is distracting | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
managers away from reconfiguring what they do and saving money. That | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
is a big problem when it comes to the NHS. The Defence Secretary is | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
worried, the Supreme Court ruled today that the families of soldiers | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
killed in Iraq are free to sue the Government for failing to protect | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
them as well as they might have. Inevitably it invoked European | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
human rights legislation and whether it covered them when they | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
were sent to fight abroad. Being a soldier is, afterall, a slightly | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
dangerous job. That is sort of the point. The biggest protection of | :38:43. | :38:52. | |
all would be never to put them in harm's way anywhere. The soldiers | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
who fought at D-Day would never have imagined it. What precisely | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
constitutes caring for your warriors. To send a man to fight | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
without a weapon is one thing. Is it even possible that some missions | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
might be considered so hazardous they render the Government, the | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
taxpayer, liable. The claims relate to the deaths of two British | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
soldiers killed by IODs, while travelling in the heavily- | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
criticised, light low- armoured Snatch Land Rover vehicles, and the | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
other, who died in a friend low- fire incident travelling in a | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
Challenger Tank. The Supreme Court ruled that the soldiers were within | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
the UK jurisdiction for the purposes of the European Convention | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
on Human Rights. And the Ministry of Defence's argument that they | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
should be covered by called combat immunity was also rejected. | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
Previously human rights protection only applied to military bases and | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
not to the battlefield. concerns are about the wider | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
implications that this will have for the safety and efficiency of | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
our forces in combat in the future. It places some really big questions | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
about how we are going to be able to engage in operations in the | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
future. So will these obligations placed on Government really | :40:15. | :40:25. | |
:40:25. | :40:30. | ||
restrict the UK's ability to fight wars? With us now is our guests. | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
Anthony, can you think of a single military campaign in his tro that | :40:35. | :40:41. | |
would not potentially have fall -- in history that would not have | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
potentially fallen foul of this ruling? Warfare is completely | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
unpredictable. Even if you take the German army in the Second World War, | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
regarded as one of the best equipped. They hadn't prepared for | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
the Russian winter. Every single army always gets it wrong. That is | :40:55. | :41:03. | |
one of the truths about warfare. This is lunacy? Isn't it? You have | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
to look at what the court decided. That is the first point really | :41:07. | :41:14. | |
isn't it. The court has said that soldiers are subject to UK | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
jurisdiction when they are operating abroad. Which is what in | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
fact is the case in relation to all other law, both civil law and | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
criminal law. So the only question was is the Human Rights Act some | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
how different from other law? And the court has held, no. The | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
soldiers are subject to UK jurisdiction because they are | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
within the state's authority and control. Anyone under UK | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
jurisdiction. There is a lot of logic to that isn't there? | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
course there is. But at the same time how do you impose zero risk | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
civilian value on a battlefield or military environment. I'm not sure | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
that is what they are saying, where there has to be zero risk? They are | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
not necessarily saying there is zero risk, but the question is how | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
far do you take the minimiseation of risk in this particular process. | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
There is the equipment side where I would certainly agree that the | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
Snatch Land Rovers were a scandal waiting to happen, and it did | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
happen. But then there are other aspects to it, for example when you | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
come to the friendly fire incident. Does that mean that we should have | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
identification, friend or foe technology on every single vehicle | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
in the British Army. Could we ever afford it. The court has absolutely | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
not said it is a zero risk situation. The court has | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
specifically said that no unreasonable or disproportionate | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
burdens will be placed on the military in any way that would put | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
the defence of the country at risk. With the greatest respect have you | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
ever served in the military? Have any of these judges served in the | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
military? Who are we to judge? Can you imagine what it is like out in | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
combat trying to make a decision about how you perform a particular | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
operation, while second-guessing what liability may be at play in | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
the courts comfortably back in England? Those decisions have been | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
specifically ruled out of judicial scrutiny. So in relation to those | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
decisions the court has said decisions on the battlefield are | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
not matters to be considered by the courts. Who is potentially bound by | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
this ruling should it go your way? What do you mean bound? Is this, as | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
Anthony last said, many people feel the preparation for the war in Iraq | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
was scandalously mismanaged and the troops were not given all the | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
equipment that they needed. So it is the people who make that | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
decision is it? The defendant, if you are asking me who the defendant | :43:42. | :43:49. | |
would be, it would be the Government, the MoD, the point is | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
soldiers have, the court has decided that when something goes | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
seriously wrong, soldiers should not be shut out from the courts. | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
They should be able to litigate. But the point is, has something | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
seriously gone wrong? At that point one has to ask whether reasonable | :44:08. | :44:16. | |
steps were taken to protect soldiers' lives. That is the | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
circumstances. You can see why Philip Hammond is twitchy about it? | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
You do indeed. He's right talking about the wider implications. One | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
has to remember that the ethos of the army and attitude is that | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
although the Supreme Court may have ruled out for the moment a question | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
of battlefield decision, I'm afraid in this field, on the whole lawyers | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
tend to go partly for making their names and careers want to push the | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
boundaries. There is always the possibility, therefore, we will see | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
this challenged in the future. What will that mean? We have seen the | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
way, for example, that the police on one occasion actually called | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
back their men and ordered them not to intervene, when, people were | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
being held down by a gunman and were under severe threat. Are we | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
going to see at some stage in the future the SAS have to carry out a | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
health and safety check before they start trying to release hostages? | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
The implications are pretty worrying. Can you reassure him | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
about that? I can certainly do that. Aum the court has said here is that | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
the state is -- all the court has said here that the state is under | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
an obligation it take reasonable steps to protect their soldiers. As | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
a matter of common law, since 1987, when parliament lifted the immunity | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
for soldiers for suing the MoD, parliament has said that the MoD | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
has a duty that can be litigated. A duty of care to its soldiers and | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
soldiers are entitled to sue the MoD. Now parliament decided that in | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
1987, and one has to be slightly realistic about this. What flood of | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
litigation has there been since 1987? There has been a duty of care | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
since then? There has certainly been a number of case, not a flood | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
of litigation, that I would accept. All right, thank you very much | :46:13. | :46:23. | |
:46:23. | :46:58. | ||
indeed. Saying you can't judge a book by | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
its cover, tell that to a publisher, Penguin was announced the winner of | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
the design award. The brief was to design a cover for a book that is | :47:08. | :47:18. | |
:47:18. | :47:28. | ||
70 years old. Here is the ones that It was about 11.00 in the morning, | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
the sun not shining and the look of hard rain on the foot hills. I was | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
wearing my powder blue suit with a dark-blue shirt, tie and display | :47:37. | :47:41. |