Browse content similar to 18/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Taliban take up scissors for their deant. But was it worth all | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
the deaths of thousands upon thousands of Afghan civilians and | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
coalition troops to achieve talks without preconditions. Should | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
incompetent bankers face criminal charges. Will tomorrow's Banking | :00:35. | :00:42. | |
Commission report really revolutionise financial services? | :00:42. | :00:50. | |
Normally I would throw in some white wine now. Nigel la Lawson's | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
husband has accepted a caution for assaulting her. Is this the real | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
picture of domestic violence. We meet the oligarch reputed to be | :00:59. | :01:09. | |
:01:09. | :01:11. | ||
Russia's richest man. Good evening, almost 12 years after the US | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
coalition forces ousted the Taliban in Afghanistan, at least one | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
faction of it is to hold direct talks from the delegation from | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
Hamid Karzai's Government and US official as early as Thursday, in | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
their first overseas office in Qatar. The announcement was made on | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
the day NATO formally handed over all security to the Afghan | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
Government forces. It has been a long and bloody battle. Tens of | :01:35. | :01:43. | |
thousands of Afghan civilians have died. 2,238 US personnel, and 444 | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
UK servicemen and women. President Obama has cautioned against | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
expectations of quick progress, anticipating a lot of bumps in the | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
road. First of all, these bumps in the | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
road, what are the pitfalls we can expect? All sorts of things, really, | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
there has been an unhappy history of trying to get these talks | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
together. Many false starts. One incident that happened in 2011 was | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
the head of the high council for reconciliation in Afghanistan, the | :02:13. | :02:20. | |
same job holder, if you like, who will go to the talks in Qatar, was | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
murdered by a bomb placed by somebody who he thought was a | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
Taliban leader coming to talk to him. Many false starts. Then there | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
is the issue of how many people fighting in the countryside are | :02:31. | :02:40. | |
really loyal to this group who have today announced these talks. The | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
called Quetasura of the Taliban. NATO have said 75% of the people | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
they were involved of fighting with live within five miles of their own | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
home. They are not foreign Jihadists, they are local people | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
with a local sense of grievance. There are other groups other than | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
this, the called Hakani network and other Islamic groups. Would they | :03:01. | :03:09. | |
come along with a deal? These are all big questions and they have to | :03:09. | :03:16. | |
be answered as soon as these talks begin in ernest. The G8 summit | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
ended in Northern Ireland with a distinct feeling of being upstaged. | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
As the leaders had just about managed to sketch broad consensus | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
on topics from tax to Syria, news was coming in of a dramatic turn in | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
the long-running Afghanistan campaign. Peace talks opening with | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
the Taliban. I have long argued that we need to match the security | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
response in Afghanistan with a political process to try to make | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
sure that as many people as possible give us violence, give up | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
armed struggle and join the political process. And that is | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
exactly what I hope can happen with elements of the Taliban. That is | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
the point of the Taliban office in Doha in Qatar, and that is the | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
point of the discussions that the Americans will have. | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
Across the world in Qatar Taliban representatives chose this day to | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
open their new office, complete with ribbon cutting. Previous | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
attempts to start a peace process with this gulf emirate hosting | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
negotiations had failed. But the objections have finally been put to | :04:24. | :04:32. | |
one side. TRANSLATION: Now you know that Afghanistan's problem has two | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
aspects, foreign and domestic. The most important important aspect is | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
foreign, because they are under the control of the occupation, when | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
occupation ends, goodwilling, things will move forward. | :04:44. | :04:54. | |
:04:54. | :05:04. | ||
movement went as far as to say it The Americans' reaction was | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
positive, if a little brusque. is good news, we are very pleased | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
with what has taken place, thanks. While in Kabul it was announced | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
that NATO troops had handed the leadership of combat operations to | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
President Karzai's Government. TRANSLATION: From tomorrow all | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
forms of security from around the country will be led by our own | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
security and defence forces. I'm announcing this to my countrymen | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
that in the next month the fifth and final step of security | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
transition will start. It has been apparent for months that NATO | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
forces were moving into the background. Indeed, during a visit | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
to Helmand Province earlier this year, we found that British | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
soldiers were quickly pulling out of their bases, hardly patrolling | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
outside the wire and effectively considered their combat mission to | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
be over. What we have moved to now is a situation where the Afghan | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
security forces really are in the lead doing all this work for | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
themselves. We have reduced our profile to such an extent that we | :06:10. | :06:17. | |
don't do ground combat-type operations any more. This drawing | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
down by NATO has given the Taliban the necessary signal that what they | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
term "the foreign occupation" of their country, is indeed ending. | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
Now NATO commanders will look on as talks begin in Qatar with the | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
Americans and the Taliban at the table, but with President Karzai's | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
representatives in the driving seat. My perspective has always been that | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
this war will have to end with a political reconciliation, and so I | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
frankly would be supportive of any positive movement in terms of | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
reconciliation, particularly an Afghan-led and owned process that | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
would bring reconciliation between the Afghan people and the Taliban, | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
in the context of the Afghan constitution. There is much that | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
can still go wrong, and fighting is bound to continue in parts of the | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
country. But today's opening offers the most important chance for more | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
than a decade of starting a constructive peace process. Or is | :07:15. | :07:22. | |
today's announcement an admission of defeat. In Washington is Kurt | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
Volker the United States permanent representative to NATO from 2008/09. | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
John Reid, a Labour former cab minister, who served as Defence | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
Secretary from 2005/06, and Rudra Chaudhuri from the Department of | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
War Studies at King's College London. He travelled as part of a | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
group last year to meet former senior members of the Taliban and | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
explore the possibilities for negotiations. First of all, we | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
could have got here a lot faster if we were going to eventually | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
negotiate without any pre- conditions. 2007 Gordon Brown said | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
there was no talks and MI6 were talking. Why the delay? Two things, | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
the first is the purpose of going into Afghanistan was to protect the | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
British people. And for 1 years, and the people of the west, to de-- | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
11 years, and the people of the west, and they denied Al-Qaeda a | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
base from which to launch attacks. It was the credit to our forces and | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
those of the rest of the NATO forces in there that we have | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
achieved that. The second thing is that all conflicts end in political | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
discussions, but the timing is not predictable. It usually happens | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
when one, or both sides recognise there is no military victory. I | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
think it is significant that today the Taliban have been willing toe | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
come to the table. You say there is no -- to come to the table. You say | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
there is no pre-conditions, but the Taliban issued a statement thaiing | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
in terms they wouldn't allow anyone on their soil to harm anyone | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
outside the country. That seems to me like a big compromise. We can | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
talk about what else they might come to the table with. When you | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
say that negotiations usually happen when nobody wins, you | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
admitting that we didn't win in Afghanistan? This is not, as | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
General Rupert Smith once said the idea that these conflicts will end | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
with a victory parade is to misunderstand the conflict. The | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
victory was in defying and denying Al-Qaeda the attempt to that which | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
they did in 9/11, we have done that. Kurt Volker is that your reading of | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
the situation, is this the right time to be talking to the Taliban? | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
Look there is never a wrong time to be willing to talk. If you want to | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
try to resolve a problem it is always good to talk to your | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
opponents. We are doing this from a position of weakness now. The | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
Taliban has been willing to fight and die in order to control its | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
country, or what it sees as its country for the last 12 years. We | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
have demonstrated we are not willing to do that. In fact we have | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
been getting out. So the Taliban knows it is going to get what it | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
wants, one way or another. Whether we give it to them at a negotiating | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
table, or whether they just continue to use the negotiations as | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
a vehicle and keep fighting. What do you think the American people | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
feel about that. Do they feel it was worth it to get Al-Qaeda out of | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
Afghanistan? Yes. I think there are a couple of things. If you look at | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
public opinion, one of them is they are tired of being in Afghanistan | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
in general. We don't see the point of being there any more. Secondly, | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
I think that they feel that, yes, indeed, Al-Qaeda is no longer using | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
this territory, why should we be there, Al-Qaeda has moved on to | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
Mali, to Somalia, to Yemen, why be tied down in Afghanistan. Plus we | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
have work to do at home. The dang, I feel, is there is a great risk -- | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
danger, I feel, is the great risk is despite what the Taliban say, is | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
they will impose their rule on Afghanistan in the minimum if not | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
the entire country, and it will be very difficult for them not to | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
provide a home to the Pakistani Taliban. Rudra Chaudhuri you were | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
an outrider or an early group talking to a faction of the Taliban. | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
That point there that they will take hold in southern Afghanistan | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
again. There is that, secondly, are the Afghan forces sufficient to the | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
task of making sure they don't. Thirdly, if I can do that, are you | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
sure that some of the Afghan forces won't turn any way towards the | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
Taliban? If I take the questions, the first point is we need to be | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
very clear that we are dealing with a very slim minority within a very | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
large majority of what we call the Taliban. That is danger in itself? | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
It is dangerous but optimistic, you would rather be speaking to | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
somebody rather than nobody. That needs to be tempered. The work we | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
did with former Taliban figures of a political variety, politically | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
motivated within a big movement, that today's largely controlled by | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
the military, from what we understand. That needs to be taken | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
in measure. On the question of will the Taliban come back to | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
Afghanistan the way they did in the 1990s? I think the Taliban, or at | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
least the ones we are speaking to are clear that is not going to | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
happen. They are a slim faction of the Taliban? They are, from what we | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
can understand. Absolutely. I just think, are they in any position to | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
deliver a guarantee that there will be no Al-Qaeda on the soil, or | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
indeed that there will be equal rights for women given that last | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
week we were talking about 150 girls being gassed in a Kabul | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
school? It really is hope over expectation isn't it? I think we | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
need to role back a little here. The negotiations haven't even begun, | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
this is the beginning of a dialogue process. You have certain elements | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
willing to talk. You have come it a position where both sides have | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
recognised. The Americans included, that military victory is out of the | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
options. What do they want?This slim representation would want some | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
political control within Afghanistan, that is not | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
necessarily a terrible thing, given there is a tacit recognition that | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
the Taliban aren't going away. Dr Chaudhuri says, this is a slim | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
faction of the Taliban, ones that are politically motivated, not | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
militarily motivated? There is one, and there is the Hakani group and | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
various other groups as well. They do have a degree of democratic | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
legitimacy, in the widest sense of that word, in the sense of having | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
support among the Taliban. Look the key question is this, would you | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
have got an agreement with the IRA or anyone else, if the pre- | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
condition was you will surrender and you will publicly announce that | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
you will accept all our conditions? No. Secondly is it going to be a | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
long process? Yes it is. Have they, in the course of this, sent a | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
signal today, and I mentioned it earlier, which is no-one inside our | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
soil will be able to hand those outside. That is their quid pro quo | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
for the Americans saying we won't ask you to mention the Taliban. | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
Kurt Volker, do you think that the American people are going to go | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
along with this idea. President Obama's idea that there will be | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
many, many bumps in the road. This may be very protracted negotiations | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
and there may be further violence. I think unfortunately I would say, | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
unfortunately the American people are prepared to go along with that, | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
I think the conclusion has been reached here, we are more | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
interested in nation building at home than nation building in | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
Afghanistan. Whether it means a degradation in governance or an end | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
to women's rights or children's violence, the public perception is | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
that is not our problem. That is interesting interested that what | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
America was fighting for was freedom for all. That has just gone | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
out the window. This is a pure pragmatisim? It is, what I would | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
say is we made great gains in Afghanistan, and you mentioned some | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
of them over the last 12 years. The real risk is these are now all on | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
the table to either be negotiated away, or taken away by the Taliban. | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
I think that with a further commitment over a period of time we | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
would have been able to stablise this, but that moment has probably | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
gone. I disagree with that to some extent, for two reasons. Coming | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
back to the original point, this may be a slim faction of the | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
Taliban, but it is a very important faction of the Taliban. It is the | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
old Taliban from the 1980s and 1990s, they have a great amount of | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
spiritual power. That needs to be kept in mind. The window of | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
opportunity sceptics would argue was 18 months, but the fact of the | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
matter, and Lord Reid knows better than most is negotiations take time, | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
pre-conditions need to be worked out. You have two sides on the | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
table willing to talk. On the women's rights and human rights, | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
you are absolutely right, I agree with the colleague from the United | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
States, maybe it is all up for grabs. The optimist in me would say | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
two things, there is evidence of senior former Taliban leaders today | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
who have taken a reformist position, there are girls' schools protect, a | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
women's college set up by a former senior Taliban minister. The | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
Taliban is a different beast today, and they recognise that. It has to | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
take on a certain liberal position because Afghanistan is not the same | :15:57. | :16:05. | |
as in the 1990s. In a moment: I'm about to meet my | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
first Russian oligarch. Russia's richest mantles us about his | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
passion for Faberge eggs. Now the coalition Government promised to | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
clean out the banking system after the failures of many senior figures | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
from RBS's Fred Goodwin to Lord Denis Stevenson of HBOS. The | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
parliamentary commission on banking standards, set up by George Osborne | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
last July is due to report tomorrow. The report apparently contains a | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
section about resistance to reform, and a series of recommendations to | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
put a rocket under their governance. What have we learned tonight? | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
report is under embargo for midnight plus one minute. But the | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
newspapers which we have here have printed the gist of it. And the | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
gist actually is something that will probably raise a cheer in many | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
a pub. But not a cheer in many a bank boardroom. It is simply | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
bankers who do wrong should be jailed. It is the idea that you | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
give specific responsibility to specific people in banks, so you | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
are the guy who is there to stop us rigging LIBOR, if we do that you | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
get sacked, banned or in the Washington Post case go to jail. | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
This is one massive change of focus. This is just a committee in | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
parliament. I was going to say, there may be a cheer in the pub, | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
but it may be a hollow cheer, because will any of this actually | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
happen? It is this committee has actually gone rogue. It wasn't set | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
up to do a lot of this, it is chaired by a prominent Conservative | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
MP, it has set an agenda about naming and also bringing what you | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
might call a Conservative agenda to this, for example, personal | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
responsibility. We focused for five years on structure and restructure | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
in the banking sector. Has I have been finding out today, this change | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
of emphasis is in the air because essentially many people think that | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
the structural changes that we have done so far just won't work on | :18:03. | :18:11. | |
their own. A brief history of British banking in the last ten | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
years would include the following, banks mis-sold payment protection | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
insurance and now us about �12 billion. Then a series of | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
catastrophic management errors led to the collapse of Northern Rock, | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
Bradford & Bingley, and the nationalisation of RBS, HBOS and | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
Lloyd's. The taxpayer bailed them out to the tune of �133 billion, | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
the Bank of England printed �375 billion, which it gave to the banks, | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
but they didn't lend very much to British business. Then they were | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
found out manipulating the world's most fundamental interest rate, | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
LIBOR. If, surveying the recent history of | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
banking, finance and insurance, you come to the conclusion that the | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
whole thing might be something of a scam, perpetrated on its customers | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
by an unaccountable elite, then from tomorrow you are not alone. | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
MPs and peers look set to go further than any Government has | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
ever gone in stating that the industry has failed and needs even | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
bigger reform. At the heart of the problem is what to do about bankers | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
who fail. Fred Goodwin walked away with his pension, Sir James Crosby | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
kept his Knighthood until forced to hand it back. Bob Diamond, the boss | :19:21. | :19:31. | |
:19:31. | :19:31. | ||
of Barclays departed after the LIBOR-fixing scandal cost the bank | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
$340 million in fines. The report will call for bank bosses to serve | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
jail time if they fail to run their businesses correctly that goes way | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
beyond Labour or the coalition has demanded and will change the | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
culture of the City big time. Would jailing people do any good? Banking | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
is a trust business, it is important that customers see that | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
individual responsibility is held to. But, this isn't and never was | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
about a few bad apple, and jailing a few misbehaving bankers, this is | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
about a whole system that was going wrong because of add incentive and | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
structural problems. And the more important question is are those | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
going to get addressed as well as holding individuals to account? | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
the meantime there is the sticky problem about what to do about the | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
banks the taxpayer owns. Tomorrow George Osborne is set to announce | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
his plans for RBS and Lloyd's group to be privatised and where else to | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
announce it but at an invite-only audience of bankers in bowties. But | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
parliament too will want a say. The MPs' report tomorrow is likely to | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
call for RBS to be broken up. They will call for a new effort by the | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
competition authorities to break the stranglehold on the high street | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
of the four big banks. To really improve the structure of the UK | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
industry we need to have many new entrant banks coming in, that is | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
beginning to happen. We need to grow the community banking sector, | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
including Credit Unions, that is beginning to happen. To really have | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
an impact at scale we have to ask ourselves a question, what is the | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
best thing for the whole UK economy to do with RBS. That might include | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
breaking it up into regional banks, it might include keeping it in | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
public ownership and giving it a mandate to focus on SMEs, we have | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
to focus on all those options. until now the solutions proposed | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
for the British banking industry have been structural, separate this | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
bit from that bit, impose new capital controls, but if MPs' | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
recommendations tomorrow are acted upon, we could see, for the first | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
time, a top banker being jailed. Though whether the fear of ending | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
up in Wormwood scrubs would have stopped the sub-prime crisis is | :21:35. | :21:45. | |
:21:45. | :21:46. | ||
anybody's guess. I'm joined now by Martin Jacomb, a former Barclays | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
Deputy Chairman. Elissa Bayer the senior investor, and Laura | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
Willoughby chief executive of the campaign Move Your Money. | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
Sir Martin, this is coming because of an avalanche of disaster, | :21:59. | :22:06. | |
billions of pounds of tax-payers' gone. Manipulated LIBOR, man lip | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
lated key rates and mis-selling, nobody held responsible. The | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
banking sector has itself to blame hasn't it? To say that nobody is | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
responsible, nobody has been found responsible is incorrect. But for | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
your talking about yesterday's disasters, all the banks, all the | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
major banks now are run by different people, with a different | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
ethos and the bad apples are no longer in charge. You say it is | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
yesterday's crisis and the bad apples are no longer in charge, | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
presumably then if there is indeed in this report a recommendation | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
that charges be brought against bankers who are incompetent and | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
they would then going to jail do you think that would be a fitting | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
pun --ment if there are further problems? I haven't read the report. | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
None of us have it is midnight? don't know what it says. I'm all in | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
favour of people who make big mistakes with other people's money | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
getting into personal liability. And going to jail? Going to jail is | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
completely out of the question right now. Because first of all you | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
have to find an individual guilty of some crime. So let's talk about | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
liability rather than going to jail. Which is well overdramatising it. | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
Would you like to see, as it were, bad bankers going to jail? | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
Certainly bankers should be taking responsibility for their actions, | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
we believe that very strong loo. We have seen huge numbers of people's | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
lives affected by their decisions. You can take responsibility for | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
your actions and just resign, it doesn't help people get their money | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
back, if there is the threat of incarceration that would bring a | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
chill and actually would perhaps make sure that some of the boards | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
and some of the individual bankers and committees don't act | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
irresponsibly? Absolutely, there should be prosecutions and for the | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
mistakes already made, people should know when they are making | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
big decisions with other people's money there is a responsibility and | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
there are consequences. actually I'm right in saying | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
recommended the Co-Op bank? We did, it is one of many banks. It was top | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
of your list, and look what's happened to them, that model isn't | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
right, the Mutual isn't right either? Mutuals are better, Co-Op | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
has found its own solution, more importantly it shows just growing | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
and growing and growing our banks until they become so big isn't the | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
answer. Actually what we need are local banks committed to growing | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
the local economy, lending. The five big banks aren't lending to | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
businesses at the minute, or not offering much to the economy. If we | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
want to change banking in Britain we need to change the structure in | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
banking and get them lending locally again. Small banks will be | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
our saviours. Do you think there is a different structure, a new model | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
perhaps we haven't thought of yet? Probably we are going back in time, | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
having spent as much time as Sir Martin in the City. You grew the | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
bank the way you move your joint clearing banks, our ordinary high | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
street banks and moved them together with the investment banks. | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
What I think has happened is it is not working, it hasn't working, you | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
are looking at two different cultures and two different ways of | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
operating. Separation is the answer? To some extent you have to | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
get back to what ordinary banking is, people in the street they need | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
it, someone to talk to. We have gone away from that. Do you think | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
separation is the answer? No I don't, first of all let me say when | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
people talk about prosecuting bankers and sending them to jail, | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
that's a last resort. What's really important is they are responsible | :25:34. | :25:41. | |
with their own money to repay some of the liability. So talking about | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
personal liability for people running banks is much more relevant | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
about talking about jail? What about separating investment? | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
don't believe that, if you talk about separation in this economy, | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
and money isn't flowing to business because banks are not lending. The | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
reason is because they are required to hold masses of capital and they | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
can't get any new capital and therefore they have to restrict | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
lending. So what you need to do to substitute for that is what happens | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
in the United States which is that the capital markets provide the | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
funds for business, and that comes from the investment banking | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
operations. And if you want it working really well, you get the | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
commercial bankers and the big banks to say to their investment | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
banking colleagues and the investment banking division this is | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
an opportunity for you to issue bonds on behalf of a company that | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
need money. Is that a solution for you? No. At the moment the big | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
banks have Government money to lend to businesses, they are still not | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
doing it. There is something fundamentally wrong with our system. | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
We need banks to get back to where they should be, which is keeping | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
people's money safe and listening to customers. At the moment there | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
is no proportion. People put money in accounts to see it grow, and if | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
it is not growinging perhaps they think actually having some of the | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
investment bankers doing a lot of work with the money they can lend, | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
what would be wrong with that? balance has tipped in the wrong way. | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
They are more interested to use money to make more money. We are | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
saying at the moment there is no competition in the market, there is | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
no incentive to be nice to customers at the other end, treat | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
them well, make sure that they are lending, make sure that they are | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
helping people save. Making sure they are growing the local economy. | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
Is there a moral position the banks should be forced to take about that, | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
that they should be doing good deeds, as it were, for their | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
customers? I don't think they would put it quite like that. You need | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
money going back into industry and customers. What you have got at the | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
moment is a terrific lack of confidence in your bankers, that I | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
think is veryed bad. That is undermining what is going on. | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
do you restore confidence in bankers, the same breed as other | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
people, and yet they are not trusted? I think what they have | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
done has made people mistrust bankers, I think what they do | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
essentially is a good job. The idea is to put money into the economy to | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
lend to businesses, that is all very positive. But in what's | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
happened since say 22008 they have lost confidence in their bankers. | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
You have the same bank since you were 16 haven't you? I have had had | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
an account with the, what's now the NatWest bank, part of RBS, I have | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
had it since I was 16 years old, which is a very, very many decades | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
ago. Why do you trust them?If I could just interrupt you, one of | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
the things I would like to see improved comes from right here and | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
the other media. Mervyn King the retiring Governor of the Bank of | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
England said last month, and not a moment to soon -- too soon that it | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
was time to stop demonising bankers, as long as people do that they | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
can't behave like bankers. If more senior bankers would come on | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
television programmes and explain themselves they would appear more | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
transparent? I don't think transparency is particularly | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
important, what happened is a lot of very big mistakes were made, | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
they were made in the past, the changes in management have been | :29:08. | :29:18. | |
:29:18. | :29:19. | ||
made and it is time to get on with lending money to business. Charles | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
Saatchi, advertising mogul, gallery owner has been cautioned for | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
assaulting his wife, the famous TV personality, Nigella Lawson, his | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
hands on her throat. We don't know if they very public display of | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
domestic violence goes on in private. The disturbing images will | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
resonate with women who have had to suffer abuse at the hands of their | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
partner. This is beautiful.What some people found so shocking is | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
Nigella Lawson is portrayed and portrays herself as a woman very | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
much in charge of her life, her work and her image, confident and | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
happy, a par gone of domestic police. But pick -- paragone of | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
domestic bliss. But pictures give a lie to that. She is said to be | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
abroad considering her future. The assault, like that of Rihanna and | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
Cheryl Gascoigne, has raised the profile of domestic violence again, | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
and demonstrates that the rich and famous are not immune. According to | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
the 2011/12 crime survey, 1.2 million women were victims of | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
domestic abuse last year in England and Wales. The same survey found | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
that 31% of women experienced domestic abuse at some point after | :30:31. | :30:38. | |
the age of 16. Joining me now is the research manager scat ap | :30:38. | :30:45. | |
respect Charity working with perpetrators of domestic violence | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
and Hadley Freeman, an author on domestic violence. Is it shocking | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
because she, Nigella Lawson, is the domestic violence, and how could | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
somebody so rich and successful be in such a shocking position? | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
much of her career has been presenting this image of domestic | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
bliss, she can bake cakes with the beautiful house, the Aga and happy | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
children. It is not shocking it has happened to her because she's rich | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
and famous, there are many women throughout history, Tina Turner, | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
Lana Turner and now Rihanna. Domestic violence is not for women | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
in a certain class, there are no limits with religion, ethnicity and | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
class, it happens across the spectrum. Would it be fair to say | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
that for women who are rich or middle-class there are places they | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
can go to hide it more than people who do not have that financial | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
wherewithal? Certainly. But women stay with their abusers for more | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
reasons than just practicalities. Interesting, we must be clear about | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
it, we have no idea what else has happened in their relationship, | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
what we do know is Charles Saatchi took the caution. But he also | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
called it "a playful tiff" what signal does that send out? One of | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
the depressing things about that comment is how common it is. Most | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
men that I have worked with and my colleagues who I spoke today would | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
confirm with, saying it was a tiff it didn't matter, it was nothing, I | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
it didn't matter, it was nothing, I was just pushing against the wall, | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
was just pushing against the wall, it was fall -- up against the wall, | :32:24. | :32:31. | |
that was just that. Saying it was just a tiff is a common pattern of | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
justification. So people we work with will typically minimise, deny | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
or blame somebody else for the things they have done. And they | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
will very often do this even today when the behaviour they have used | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
is quite dangerous. You work with perpetrators of domestic violence | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
generally, you know about some of these often repeated phrases. When | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
we have a case and this could be a one-off we don't know, which is | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
quite as startling as this, what impact does it have on the | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
conversations that you have with people? I expect one of the things | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
that will happen over the next few days, which often does, when there | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
is a case like this, is calls to the Respect phone line, where | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
people can phone if there are concerns about behaviour will go up. | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
That happens when there is storylines on soap opera or real- | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
life incidents. Although it can seem strange it is a good thing, it | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
is a positive step to recognise you have a problem with your behaviour. | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
What is interesting about this particular case, which we won't | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
comment on in detail, I know, but being able to minimise it as just a | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
tiff is very common, but also one way of evading, being able to take | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
responsibility for it is not take advantage of the help there is. | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
There is help available for men and the some women who want to stop | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
being abusive to their partners. It is not the only way and people can | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
change. What will be the impact on women and children seeing that | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
image? I think it is terrifying. I'm amazed that some columnists | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
have expressed amazement that this could happen to middle-class | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
successful woman. The idea it is limited to the working-classes is | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
disgusting and snoby, it is a very snoby attitude of some middle-class | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
columnists and media commentators thinking this is an "other" problem. | :34:17. | :34:24. | |
It is a widely held belief? Part of the problem is you don't see | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
middle-class women in popular culture being abused, we see it in | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
EastEnders, and the odd novel we see middle-class and upper-class | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
women being abused but rarely TV shows. Because this is a public | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
event, let's move away from this one and talk with Rihanna and Chris | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
Brown, they went back together. What messages do people get from | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
society? They are always very complex situations, but that was a | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
straight down the line, he beat her up, she went back? That is a very | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
common thing. As I'm sure you will agree. You look at history, Tina | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
Turner stayed with Ike for years and years, women stay with their | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
abusers for years for a whole shrew of reasons. The idea I found | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
upsetting when women would get upset with Rihanna for staying with | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
Chris Brown and as if she should be better. It doesn't place | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
responsibility on the person causing the problem. The blame gets | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
placed on the victim, as an organisation we try 0 make sure | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
responsibility lies where it should, with the cause of the problem. So | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
too often we see this, we see people, women who are victims of | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
domestic violence being blamed and held responsible, Rihanna is a good | :35:38. | :35:45. | |
case, she got a lot of vitriol from female fans or not fans, rather | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
than responsibility placed on Chris Brown, which is extraordinary. One | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
of the things we do when working with guys who have maybe never | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
admitted it properly before, we try to make it possible for them to be | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
able to say they did it, it was bad and they need to take | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
responsibility for it. Thank you very much indeed. Before the end of | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
the programme we will have tomorrow's front page, first we | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
know three things about Russian oligarchs, one, they are incredibly | :36:08. | :36:15. | |
rich, two, they sometimes end up in exile or jail, and three, possibly | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
connected to one or two, they almost never talk. But Viktor | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
Vekselberg, called the richest man in Russia, with a fortune estimated | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
$18 billion, has given a rare and exclusive interview to Steven Smith, | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
he talked about Putin, being unbelievably rich, and the | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
oligarch's passion for the lost treasures of the Tsars, the Faberge | :36:37. | :36:44. | |
Eggs. In a strong room, somewhere in | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
London, the lost treasures of the - - Tsars. Faberge Eggs, some of the | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
most priceless pieces in the History of Art. The Tsar of Russia | :36:53. | :37:02. | |
gave them to his wife and mother as Easter gifts. But these imperial | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
eggs, as they are known, aren't mere historical curiosities, | :37:08. | :37:15. | |
centuries after they were created by July Carl Faberge, they are | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
symbols of wealth and prestige in the new Russia and the oligarchs. | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
Their new owner has been called the richest man in Russia, he paid a | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
fortune for them. His people have let me look and touch, now I'm | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
going to Russia to find him if I can. | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
He is based here in Moscow. He bought nine imperial Faberge eggs | :37:40. | :37:47. | |
from the Forbes Foundation in New York, in a private deal in 2004. | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
One of his people told me if I came to this hotel in the city centre in | :37:52. | :38:02. | |
:38:02. | :38:02. | ||
one hour he would see me. I'm about to meet my first Russian oligarch. | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
From the outside the hotel does little to advertise its connection | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
with the city's new rich. Unless you count the idling motorcade of | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
police 4X4s. I'm meeting my oligarch in a bunker, two floors | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
below street level, surrounded by some of his art collection. His | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
name is Viktor Vekselberg, he is said to be worth more than $15 | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
billion. Just between us, how much did you pay for those Faberge Eggs? | :38:32. | :38:40. | |
There is a slightly more than $100 million. Was it worth it?If you | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
ask me what price for that, really for me it is absolutely difficult | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
to say to you what it is. Do you have a warm glow inside? Absolutely, | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
I have this warm glow, yes. Vekselberg controls one of Russia's | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
largest oil and gas companies. And negotiated the biggest joint | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
venture in Russian history with our own BP. I would like to take the | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
opportunity to say thank you to BP because I used part of that money | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
for cultural, art facts and collections. Other people in your | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
position might have bought something else, I don't know, like | :39:17. | :39:24. | |
a football club in London? I don't see it as negative for some Russian | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
rich men to buy a football club, why not, but Faberge Eggs, this is | :39:30. | :39:36. | |
part of Russian history and culture. And culture is something that | :39:36. | :39:43. | |
Vekselberg likes to invest in. He created a foundation, The Link of | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
Times, to look after his artwork. Do you live fairly modestly, | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
because you could obviously indulge any whim you have, you could have a | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
dozen helicopters if you wanted to? Absolutely, but I don't have time | :39:59. | :40:08. | |
for toys. It is I'm a busy man. Vekselberg prefers reading and | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
collecting. In living memory, many of his art facts of preSoviet | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
Russia would have been despised as the play things of the ruling class. | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
Now we are seen as part of the the story of the Russian nation state | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
rediscovering her history. As President Putin -- has President | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
Putin thanked him for buying back Faberge Eggs? Yes I see it is | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
emotional for our President, it is very important for for Russian | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
citizens to bring back this huge collection. Russia has huge stories | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
with a lot of art facts, big culture. This is a piece of that. | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
Some may feel that Russia has come full circle in a way, and that once | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
again the country is dominated by a small group of people who have a | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
disproportionate share of the wealth? On the one hand you are | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
right. If we compare with the situation in Russia 25 years ago, | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
the socialist time, of course everybody was equals. My parents | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
were ordinary people and lived in a small apartment, we broke one | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
system and we just started to build a new system. And we Russians we | :41:29. | :41:36. | |
are very young, the new Russia like 20 years, so it is only one | :41:36. | :41:43. | |
generation. Of course today we have some negative results of that | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
transition period. We will have some big gap between the small | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
group of rich men and the biggest part of the population not being so | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
wealthy. But this is a process, I believe, this is a gap that will be | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
reduced and reduced, and small businesses, middle-sized businesses | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
will grow and the gap will be smaller and smaller. But it takes | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
time. I believe we are going in the right direction. What is it like | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
being one of the world's richest men? You ask a very difficult | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
question. I think all the times people ask what does it mean to be | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
wealthy? A lot of us dream of having a lot of money, rightly or | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
wrongly, and you are living the dream, as they say? It doesn't | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
matter Russia or in another country, so people don't like rich people. I | :42:35. | :42:42. | |
have money but the question is how I use this opportunity? It is not | :42:42. | :42:50. | |
easy, believe me, it is not easy. I'm an industrialist, I'm a | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
businessman. It is very critical and important for Russia to keep | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
the Russian economy from the raw material industry, it is not easy | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
of the. It has needed a lot of efforts and a lot of patience, | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
because this takes time. I do what I can do. But this is all my social | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
obligation, I put my time, I put my money and I try to do the best with | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
what I can. This may be my answer for your question, how I would like | :43:21. | :43:28. | |
to spend money. I tried to see my country better and my people with | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
more happiness. Fair enough, but it is not always a safe thing to be | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
the richest guy in town, is it also a bit scary. Does it make you | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
vulnerable? Now in Russia it is reasonably a table country, it is | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
not so hugely criminal. I don't feel the big, big risk to be in | :43:48. | :43:55. | |
Russia now. At the Kremlin, where Stalin once | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
ordered that the treasures of the Tsars were flogged off to raise | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
cash. Faberge's finest are now proudly displayed a short walk from | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
President Putin's office. Carl Faberge's hard-boiled eggs have | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
become instruments of soft power. But the richest man in Russia, | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
helping to restore them to the motherland is in the national | :44:18. | :44:26. | |
interest and his own. Steven Smith told me to egg you on to see his | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
full documentary, The World's Most Beautiful Eggs, on BBC Four next | :44:30. | :44:40. | |
:44:40. | :45:11. | ||
At the close of the G8 the group of the most powerful men and one woman | :45:11. | :45:16. |