18/06/2013 Newsnight


18/06/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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The Taliban take up scissors for their deant. But was it worth all

:00:23.:00:27.

the deaths of thousands upon thousands of Afghan civilians and

:00:27.:00:31.

coalition troops to achieve talks without preconditions. Should

:00:31.:00:35.

incompetent bankers face criminal charges. Will tomorrow's Banking

:00:35.:00:42.

Commission report really revolutionise financial services?

:00:42.:00:50.

Normally I would throw in some white wine now. Nigel la Lawson's

:00:50.:00:54.

husband has accepted a caution for assaulting her. Is this the real

:00:54.:00:59.

picture of domestic violence. We meet the oligarch reputed to be

:00:59.:01:09.
:01:09.:01:11.

Russia's richest man. Good evening, almost 12 years after the US

:01:11.:01:15.

coalition forces ousted the Taliban in Afghanistan, at least one

:01:15.:01:20.

faction of it is to hold direct talks from the delegation from

:01:20.:01:23.

Hamid Karzai's Government and US official as early as Thursday, in

:01:24.:01:27.

their first overseas office in Qatar. The announcement was made on

:01:27.:01:31.

the day NATO formally handed over all security to the Afghan

:01:31.:01:35.

Government forces. It has been a long and bloody battle. Tens of

:01:35.:01:43.

thousands of Afghan civilians have died. 2,238 US personnel, and 444

:01:43.:01:47.

UK servicemen and women. President Obama has cautioned against

:01:47.:01:49.

expectations of quick progress, anticipating a lot of bumps in the

:01:49.:01:54.

road. First of all, these bumps in the

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road, what are the pitfalls we can expect? All sorts of things, really,

:02:00.:02:04.

there has been an unhappy history of trying to get these talks

:02:04.:02:09.

together. Many false starts. One incident that happened in 2011 was

:02:09.:02:13.

the head of the high council for reconciliation in Afghanistan, the

:02:13.:02:20.

same job holder, if you like, who will go to the talks in Qatar, was

:02:20.:02:23.

murdered by a bomb placed by somebody who he thought was a

:02:23.:02:27.

Taliban leader coming to talk to him. Many false starts. Then there

:02:27.:02:31.

is the issue of how many people fighting in the countryside are

:02:31.:02:40.

really loyal to this group who have today announced these talks. The

:02:40.:02:44.

called Quetasura of the Taliban. NATO have said 75% of the people

:02:44.:02:48.

they were involved of fighting with live within five miles of their own

:02:49.:02:51.

home. They are not foreign Jihadists, they are local people

:02:51.:02:54.

with a local sense of grievance. There are other groups other than

:02:55.:03:01.

this, the called Hakani network and other Islamic groups. Would they

:03:01.:03:09.

come along with a deal? These are all big questions and they have to

:03:09.:03:16.

be answered as soon as these talks begin in ernest. The G8 summit

:03:16.:03:20.

ended in Northern Ireland with a distinct feeling of being upstaged.

:03:20.:03:25.

As the leaders had just about managed to sketch broad consensus

:03:25.:03:31.

on topics from tax to Syria, news was coming in of a dramatic turn in

:03:31.:03:36.

the long-running Afghanistan campaign. Peace talks opening with

:03:36.:03:40.

the Taliban. I have long argued that we need to match the security

:03:40.:03:44.

response in Afghanistan with a political process to try to make

:03:44.:03:49.

sure that as many people as possible give us violence, give up

:03:49.:03:53.

armed struggle and join the political process. And that is

:03:54.:03:57.

exactly what I hope can happen with elements of the Taliban. That is

:03:58.:04:02.

the point of the Taliban office in Doha in Qatar, and that is the

:04:02.:04:05.

point of the discussions that the Americans will have.

:04:05.:04:10.

Across the world in Qatar Taliban representatives chose this day to

:04:10.:04:16.

open their new office, complete with ribbon cutting. Previous

:04:16.:04:21.

attempts to start a peace process with this gulf emirate hosting

:04:21.:04:24.

negotiations had failed. But the objections have finally been put to

:04:24.:04:32.

one side. TRANSLATION: Now you know that Afghanistan's problem has two

:04:32.:04:37.

aspects, foreign and domestic. The most important important aspect is

:04:37.:04:40.

foreign, because they are under the control of the occupation, when

:04:40.:04:44.

occupation ends, goodwilling, things will move forward.

:04:44.:04:54.
:04:54.:05:04.

movement went as far as to say it The Americans' reaction was

:05:04.:05:08.

positive, if a little brusque. is good news, we are very pleased

:05:08.:05:13.

with what has taken place, thanks. While in Kabul it was announced

:05:13.:05:17.

that NATO troops had handed the leadership of combat operations to

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President Karzai's Government. TRANSLATION: From tomorrow all

:05:23.:05:26.

forms of security from around the country will be led by our own

:05:26.:05:29.

security and defence forces. I'm announcing this to my countrymen

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that in the next month the fifth and final step of security

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transition will start. It has been apparent for months that NATO

:05:38.:05:43.

forces were moving into the background. Indeed, during a visit

:05:43.:05:45.

to Helmand Province earlier this year, we found that British

:05:45.:05:50.

soldiers were quickly pulling out of their bases, hardly patrolling

:05:50.:05:53.

outside the wire and effectively considered their combat mission to

:05:53.:05:59.

be over. What we have moved to now is a situation where the Afghan

:05:59.:06:05.

security forces really are in the lead doing all this work for

:06:05.:06:10.

themselves. We have reduced our profile to such an extent that we

:06:10.:06:17.

don't do ground combat-type operations any more. This drawing

:06:17.:06:22.

down by NATO has given the Taliban the necessary signal that what they

:06:22.:06:26.

term "the foreign occupation" of their country, is indeed ending.

:06:26.:06:32.

Now NATO commanders will look on as talks begin in Qatar with the

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Americans and the Taliban at the table, but with President Karzai's

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representatives in the driving seat. My perspective has always been that

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this war will have to end with a political reconciliation, and so I

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frankly would be supportive of any positive movement in terms of

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reconciliation, particularly an Afghan-led and owned process that

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would bring reconciliation between the Afghan people and the Taliban,

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in the context of the Afghan constitution. There is much that

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can still go wrong, and fighting is bound to continue in parts of the

:07:05.:07:09.

country. But today's opening offers the most important chance for more

:07:09.:07:15.

than a decade of starting a constructive peace process. Or is

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today's announcement an admission of defeat. In Washington is Kurt

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Volker the United States permanent representative to NATO from 2008/09.

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John Reid, a Labour former cab minister, who served as Defence

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Secretary from 2005/06, and Rudra Chaudhuri from the Department of

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War Studies at King's College London. He travelled as part of a

:07:39.:07:42.

group last year to meet former senior members of the Taliban and

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explore the possibilities for negotiations. First of all, we

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could have got here a lot faster if we were going to eventually

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negotiate without any pre- conditions. 2007 Gordon Brown said

:07:53.:07:58.

there was no talks and MI6 were talking. Why the delay? Two things,

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the first is the purpose of going into Afghanistan was to protect the

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British people. And for 1 years, and the people of the west, to de--

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11 years, and the people of the west, and they denied Al-Qaeda a

:08:11.:08:15.

base from which to launch attacks. It was the credit to our forces and

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those of the rest of the NATO forces in there that we have

:08:19.:08:23.

achieved that. The second thing is that all conflicts end in political

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discussions, but the timing is not predictable. It usually happens

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when one, or both sides recognise there is no military victory. I

:08:31.:08:35.

think it is significant that today the Taliban have been willing toe

:08:35.:08:39.

come to the table. You say there is no -- to come to the table. You say

:08:39.:08:43.

there is no pre-conditions, but the Taliban issued a statement thaiing

:08:43.:08:46.

in terms they wouldn't allow anyone on their soil to harm anyone

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outside the country. That seems to me like a big compromise. We can

:08:51.:08:54.

talk about what else they might come to the table with. When you

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say that negotiations usually happen when nobody wins, you

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admitting that we didn't win in Afghanistan? This is not, as

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General Rupert Smith once said the idea that these conflicts will end

:09:09.:09:12.

with a victory parade is to misunderstand the conflict. The

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victory was in defying and denying Al-Qaeda the attempt to that which

:09:17.:09:21.

they did in 9/11, we have done that. Kurt Volker is that your reading of

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the situation, is this the right time to be talking to the Taliban?

:09:25.:09:30.

Look there is never a wrong time to be willing to talk. If you want to

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try to resolve a problem it is always good to talk to your

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opponents. We are doing this from a position of weakness now. The

:09:36.:09:39.

Taliban has been willing to fight and die in order to control its

:09:39.:09:43.

country, or what it sees as its country for the last 12 years. We

:09:43.:09:46.

have demonstrated we are not willing to do that. In fact we have

:09:46.:09:49.

been getting out. So the Taliban knows it is going to get what it

:09:49.:09:52.

wants, one way or another. Whether we give it to them at a negotiating

:09:53.:09:55.

table, or whether they just continue to use the negotiations as

:09:55.:09:59.

a vehicle and keep fighting. What do you think the American people

:09:59.:10:03.

feel about that. Do they feel it was worth it to get Al-Qaeda out of

:10:03.:10:07.

Afghanistan? Yes. I think there are a couple of things. If you look at

:10:07.:10:10.

public opinion, one of them is they are tired of being in Afghanistan

:10:10.:10:13.

in general. We don't see the point of being there any more. Secondly,

:10:14.:10:18.

I think that they feel that, yes, indeed, Al-Qaeda is no longer using

:10:18.:10:22.

this territory, why should we be there, Al-Qaeda has moved on to

:10:22.:10:27.

Mali, to Somalia, to Yemen, why be tied down in Afghanistan. Plus we

:10:27.:10:33.

have work to do at home. The dang, I feel, is there is a great risk --

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danger, I feel, is the great risk is despite what the Taliban say, is

:10:38.:10:42.

they will impose their rule on Afghanistan in the minimum if not

:10:42.:10:45.

the entire country, and it will be very difficult for them not to

:10:45.:10:51.

provide a home to the Pakistani Taliban. Rudra Chaudhuri you were

:10:51.:10:55.

an outrider or an early group talking to a faction of the Taliban.

:10:55.:10:58.

That point there that they will take hold in southern Afghanistan

:10:58.:11:02.

again. There is that, secondly, are the Afghan forces sufficient to the

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task of making sure they don't. Thirdly, if I can do that, are you

:11:06.:11:10.

sure that some of the Afghan forces won't turn any way towards the

:11:10.:11:13.

Taliban? If I take the questions, the first point is we need to be

:11:13.:11:17.

very clear that we are dealing with a very slim minority within a very

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large majority of what we call the Taliban. That is danger in itself?

:11:22.:11:26.

It is dangerous but optimistic, you would rather be speaking to

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somebody rather than nobody. That needs to be tempered. The work we

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did with former Taliban figures of a political variety, politically

:11:33.:11:36.

motivated within a big movement, that today's largely controlled by

:11:36.:11:39.

the military, from what we understand. That needs to be taken

:11:39.:11:42.

in measure. On the question of will the Taliban come back to

:11:42.:11:47.

Afghanistan the way they did in the 1990s? I think the Taliban, or at

:11:47.:11:50.

least the ones we are speaking to are clear that is not going to

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happen. They are a slim faction of the Taliban? They are, from what we

:11:55.:12:02.

can understand. Absolutely. I just think, are they in any position to

:12:02.:12:08.

deliver a guarantee that there will be no Al-Qaeda on the soil, or

:12:08.:12:12.

indeed that there will be equal rights for women given that last

:12:12.:12:17.

week we were talking about 150 girls being gassed in a Kabul

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school? It really is hope over expectation isn't it? I think we

:12:20.:12:23.

need to role back a little here. The negotiations haven't even begun,

:12:23.:12:27.

this is the beginning of a dialogue process. You have certain elements

:12:27.:12:31.

willing to talk. You have come it a position where both sides have

:12:31.:12:37.

recognised. The Americans included, that military victory is out of the

:12:37.:12:42.

options. What do they want?This slim representation would want some

:12:42.:12:44.

political control within Afghanistan, that is not

:12:44.:12:48.

necessarily a terrible thing, given there is a tacit recognition that

:12:48.:12:52.

the Taliban aren't going away. Dr Chaudhuri says, this is a slim

:12:52.:12:56.

faction of the Taliban, ones that are politically motivated, not

:12:56.:13:00.

militarily motivated? There is one, and there is the Hakani group and

:13:00.:13:06.

various other groups as well. They do have a degree of democratic

:13:06.:13:09.

legitimacy, in the widest sense of that word, in the sense of having

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support among the Taliban. Look the key question is this, would you

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have got an agreement with the IRA or anyone else, if the pre-

:13:19.:13:22.

condition was you will surrender and you will publicly announce that

:13:22.:13:27.

you will accept all our conditions? No. Secondly is it going to be a

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long process? Yes it is. Have they, in the course of this, sent a

:13:32.:13:36.

signal today, and I mentioned it earlier, which is no-one inside our

:13:36.:13:42.

soil will be able to hand those outside. That is their quid pro quo

:13:42.:13:46.

for the Americans saying we won't ask you to mention the Taliban.

:13:46.:13:50.

Kurt Volker, do you think that the American people are going to go

:13:50.:13:54.

along with this idea. President Obama's idea that there will be

:13:54.:13:58.

many, many bumps in the road. This may be very protracted negotiations

:13:59.:14:05.

and there may be further violence. I think unfortunately I would say,

:14:05.:14:07.

unfortunately the American people are prepared to go along with that,

:14:07.:14:12.

I think the conclusion has been reached here, we are more

:14:12.:14:15.

interested in nation building at home than nation building in

:14:15.:14:20.

Afghanistan. Whether it means a degradation in governance or an end

:14:20.:14:24.

to women's rights or children's violence, the public perception is

:14:24.:14:28.

that is not our problem. That is interesting interested that what

:14:28.:14:32.

America was fighting for was freedom for all. That has just gone

:14:32.:14:37.

out the window. This is a pure pragmatisim? It is, what I would

:14:37.:14:40.

say is we made great gains in Afghanistan, and you mentioned some

:14:40.:14:44.

of them over the last 12 years. The real risk is these are now all on

:14:44.:14:48.

the table to either be negotiated away, or taken away by the Taliban.

:14:48.:14:51.

I think that with a further commitment over a period of time we

:14:51.:14:55.

would have been able to stablise this, but that moment has probably

:14:55.:15:00.

gone. I disagree with that to some extent, for two reasons. Coming

:15:00.:15:03.

back to the original point, this may be a slim faction of the

:15:03.:15:09.

Taliban, but it is a very important faction of the Taliban. It is the

:15:09.:15:14.

old Taliban from the 1980s and 1990s, they have a great amount of

:15:14.:15:18.

spiritual power. That needs to be kept in mind. The window of

:15:18.:15:21.

opportunity sceptics would argue was 18 months, but the fact of the

:15:21.:15:25.

matter, and Lord Reid knows better than most is negotiations take time,

:15:25.:15:28.

pre-conditions need to be worked out. You have two sides on the

:15:28.:15:33.

table willing to talk. On the women's rights and human rights,

:15:33.:15:35.

you are absolutely right, I agree with the colleague from the United

:15:35.:15:39.

States, maybe it is all up for grabs. The optimist in me would say

:15:39.:15:42.

two things, there is evidence of senior former Taliban leaders today

:15:42.:15:46.

who have taken a reformist position, there are girls' schools protect, a

:15:47.:15:50.

women's college set up by a former senior Taliban minister. The

:15:50.:15:54.

Taliban is a different beast today, and they recognise that. It has to

:15:54.:15:57.

take on a certain liberal position because Afghanistan is not the same

:15:57.:16:05.

as in the 1990s. In a moment: I'm about to meet my

:16:05.:16:09.

first Russian oligarch. Russia's richest mantles us about his

:16:09.:16:16.

passion for Faberge eggs. Now the coalition Government promised to

:16:16.:16:21.

clean out the banking system after the failures of many senior figures

:16:21.:16:25.

from RBS's Fred Goodwin to Lord Denis Stevenson of HBOS. The

:16:25.:16:29.

parliamentary commission on banking standards, set up by George Osborne

:16:29.:16:36.

last July is due to report tomorrow. The report apparently contains a

:16:36.:16:40.

section about resistance to reform, and a series of recommendations to

:16:40.:16:45.

put a rocket under their governance. What have we learned tonight?

:16:45.:16:48.

report is under embargo for midnight plus one minute. But the

:16:48.:16:51.

newspapers which we have here have printed the gist of it. And the

:16:51.:16:55.

gist actually is something that will probably raise a cheer in many

:16:55.:17:00.

a pub. But not a cheer in many a bank boardroom. It is simply

:17:00.:17:06.

bankers who do wrong should be jailed. It is the idea that you

:17:06.:17:09.

give specific responsibility to specific people in banks, so you

:17:09.:17:15.

are the guy who is there to stop us rigging LIBOR, if we do that you

:17:15.:17:18.

get sacked, banned or in the Washington Post case go to jail.

:17:18.:17:22.

This is one massive change of focus. This is just a committee in

:17:22.:17:25.

parliament. I was going to say, there may be a cheer in the pub,

:17:25.:17:30.

but it may be a hollow cheer, because will any of this actually

:17:30.:17:33.

happen? It is this committee has actually gone rogue. It wasn't set

:17:33.:17:39.

up to do a lot of this, it is chaired by a prominent Conservative

:17:39.:17:45.

MP, it has set an agenda about naming and also bringing what you

:17:45.:17:49.

might call a Conservative agenda to this, for example, personal

:17:49.:17:52.

responsibility. We focused for five years on structure and restructure

:17:52.:17:56.

in the banking sector. Has I have been finding out today, this change

:17:56.:18:00.

of emphasis is in the air because essentially many people think that

:18:00.:18:03.

the structural changes that we have done so far just won't work on

:18:03.:18:11.

their own. A brief history of British banking in the last ten

:18:11.:18:15.

years would include the following, banks mis-sold payment protection

:18:15.:18:19.

insurance and now us about �12 billion. Then a series of

:18:19.:18:23.

catastrophic management errors led to the collapse of Northern Rock,

:18:23.:18:26.

Bradford & Bingley, and the nationalisation of RBS, HBOS and

:18:26.:18:32.

Lloyd's. The taxpayer bailed them out to the tune of �133 billion,

:18:32.:18:37.

the Bank of England printed �375 billion, which it gave to the banks,

:18:37.:18:42.

but they didn't lend very much to British business. Then they were

:18:42.:18:45.

found out manipulating the world's most fundamental interest rate,

:18:45.:18:48.

LIBOR. If, surveying the recent history of

:18:48.:18:50.

banking, finance and insurance, you come to the conclusion that the

:18:51.:18:55.

whole thing might be something of a scam, perpetrated on its customers

:18:55.:19:01.

by an unaccountable elite, then from tomorrow you are not alone.

:19:01.:19:04.

MPs and peers look set to go further than any Government has

:19:04.:19:09.

ever gone in stating that the industry has failed and needs even

:19:09.:19:13.

bigger reform. At the heart of the problem is what to do about bankers

:19:13.:19:17.

who fail. Fred Goodwin walked away with his pension, Sir James Crosby

:19:17.:19:21.

kept his Knighthood until forced to hand it back. Bob Diamond, the boss

:19:21.:19:31.
:19:31.:19:31.

of Barclays departed after the LIBOR-fixing scandal cost the bank

:19:31.:19:37.

$340 million in fines. The report will call for bank bosses to serve

:19:37.:19:41.

jail time if they fail to run their businesses correctly that goes way

:19:41.:19:44.

beyond Labour or the coalition has demanded and will change the

:19:44.:19:48.

culture of the City big time. Would jailing people do any good? Banking

:19:48.:19:53.

is a trust business, it is important that customers see that

:19:53.:19:58.

individual responsibility is held to. But, this isn't and never was

:19:58.:20:02.

about a few bad apple, and jailing a few misbehaving bankers, this is

:20:02.:20:06.

about a whole system that was going wrong because of add incentive and

:20:06.:20:09.

structural problems. And the more important question is are those

:20:09.:20:13.

going to get addressed as well as holding individuals to account?

:20:13.:20:17.

the meantime there is the sticky problem about what to do about the

:20:17.:20:20.

banks the taxpayer owns. Tomorrow George Osborne is set to announce

:20:20.:20:25.

his plans for RBS and Lloyd's group to be privatised and where else to

:20:25.:20:31.

announce it but at an invite-only audience of bankers in bowties. But

:20:31.:20:35.

parliament too will want a say. The MPs' report tomorrow is likely to

:20:35.:20:39.

call for RBS to be broken up. They will call for a new effort by the

:20:39.:20:42.

competition authorities to break the stranglehold on the high street

:20:42.:20:45.

of the four big banks. To really improve the structure of the UK

:20:45.:20:49.

industry we need to have many new entrant banks coming in, that is

:20:49.:20:52.

beginning to happen. We need to grow the community banking sector,

:20:52.:20:55.

including Credit Unions, that is beginning to happen. To really have

:20:55.:20:59.

an impact at scale we have to ask ourselves a question, what is the

:20:59.:21:03.

best thing for the whole UK economy to do with RBS. That might include

:21:03.:21:07.

breaking it up into regional banks, it might include keeping it in

:21:07.:21:12.

public ownership and giving it a mandate to focus on SMEs, we have

:21:12.:21:15.

to focus on all those options. until now the solutions proposed

:21:15.:21:18.

for the British banking industry have been structural, separate this

:21:18.:21:22.

bit from that bit, impose new capital controls, but if MPs'

:21:22.:21:26.

recommendations tomorrow are acted upon, we could see, for the first

:21:26.:21:32.

time, a top banker being jailed. Though whether the fear of ending

:21:32.:21:35.

up in Wormwood scrubs would have stopped the sub-prime crisis is

:21:35.:21:45.
:21:45.:21:46.

anybody's guess. I'm joined now by Martin Jacomb, a former Barclays

:21:46.:21:50.

Deputy Chairman. Elissa Bayer the senior investor, and Laura

:21:50.:21:53.

Willoughby chief executive of the campaign Move Your Money.

:21:53.:21:59.

Sir Martin, this is coming because of an avalanche of disaster,

:21:59.:22:06.

billions of pounds of tax-payers' gone. Manipulated LIBOR, man lip

:22:06.:22:09.

lated key rates and mis-selling, nobody held responsible. The

:22:09.:22:14.

banking sector has itself to blame hasn't it? To say that nobody is

:22:14.:22:19.

responsible, nobody has been found responsible is incorrect. But for

:22:19.:22:22.

your talking about yesterday's disasters, all the banks, all the

:22:22.:22:28.

major banks now are run by different people, with a different

:22:28.:22:33.

ethos and the bad apples are no longer in charge. You say it is

:22:33.:22:37.

yesterday's crisis and the bad apples are no longer in charge,

:22:37.:22:42.

presumably then if there is indeed in this report a recommendation

:22:42.:22:45.

that charges be brought against bankers who are incompetent and

:22:45.:22:49.

they would then going to jail do you think that would be a fitting

:22:49.:22:54.

pun --ment if there are further problems? I haven't read the report.

:22:54.:23:00.

None of us have it is midnight? don't know what it says. I'm all in

:23:00.:23:04.

favour of people who make big mistakes with other people's money

:23:04.:23:08.

getting into personal liability. And going to jail? Going to jail is

:23:08.:23:12.

completely out of the question right now. Because first of all you

:23:12.:23:17.

have to find an individual guilty of some crime. So let's talk about

:23:17.:23:22.

liability rather than going to jail. Which is well overdramatising it.

:23:22.:23:27.

Would you like to see, as it were, bad bankers going to jail?

:23:28.:23:31.

Certainly bankers should be taking responsibility for their actions,

:23:31.:23:34.

we believe that very strong loo. We have seen huge numbers of people's

:23:34.:23:37.

lives affected by their decisions. You can take responsibility for

:23:37.:23:41.

your actions and just resign, it doesn't help people get their money

:23:41.:23:44.

back, if there is the threat of incarceration that would bring a

:23:44.:23:47.

chill and actually would perhaps make sure that some of the boards

:23:47.:23:52.

and some of the individual bankers and committees don't act

:23:52.:23:55.

irresponsibly? Absolutely, there should be prosecutions and for the

:23:55.:23:58.

mistakes already made, people should know when they are making

:23:58.:24:01.

big decisions with other people's money there is a responsibility and

:24:01.:24:05.

there are consequences. actually I'm right in saying

:24:05.:24:10.

recommended the Co-Op bank? We did, it is one of many banks. It was top

:24:10.:24:14.

of your list, and look what's happened to them, that model isn't

:24:14.:24:18.

right, the Mutual isn't right either? Mutuals are better, Co-Op

:24:18.:24:22.

has found its own solution, more importantly it shows just growing

:24:22.:24:25.

and growing and growing our banks until they become so big isn't the

:24:25.:24:28.

answer. Actually what we need are local banks committed to growing

:24:28.:24:33.

the local economy, lending. The five big banks aren't lending to

:24:33.:24:37.

businesses at the minute, or not offering much to the economy. If we

:24:37.:24:40.

want to change banking in Britain we need to change the structure in

:24:40.:24:44.

banking and get them lending locally again. Small banks will be

:24:44.:24:48.

our saviours. Do you think there is a different structure, a new model

:24:48.:24:54.

perhaps we haven't thought of yet? Probably we are going back in time,

:24:54.:24:57.

having spent as much time as Sir Martin in the City. You grew the

:24:57.:25:00.

bank the way you move your joint clearing banks, our ordinary high

:25:00.:25:04.

street banks and moved them together with the investment banks.

:25:04.:25:08.

What I think has happened is it is not working, it hasn't working, you

:25:08.:25:12.

are looking at two different cultures and two different ways of

:25:12.:25:16.

operating. Separation is the answer? To some extent you have to

:25:16.:25:19.

get back to what ordinary banking is, people in the street they need

:25:19.:25:22.

it, someone to talk to. We have gone away from that. Do you think

:25:22.:25:27.

separation is the answer? No I don't, first of all let me say when

:25:27.:25:31.

people talk about prosecuting bankers and sending them to jail,

:25:31.:25:34.

that's a last resort. What's really important is they are responsible

:25:34.:25:41.

with their own money to repay some of the liability. So talking about

:25:41.:25:47.

personal liability for people running banks is much more relevant

:25:47.:25:52.

about talking about jail? What about separating investment?

:25:52.:25:55.

don't believe that, if you talk about separation in this economy,

:25:55.:25:59.

and money isn't flowing to business because banks are not lending. The

:26:00.:26:03.

reason is because they are required to hold masses of capital and they

:26:03.:26:07.

can't get any new capital and therefore they have to restrict

:26:07.:26:11.

lending. So what you need to do to substitute for that is what happens

:26:11.:26:14.

in the United States which is that the capital markets provide the

:26:14.:26:17.

funds for business, and that comes from the investment banking

:26:18.:26:23.

operations. And if you want it working really well, you get the

:26:23.:26:28.

commercial bankers and the big banks to say to their investment

:26:28.:26:33.

banking colleagues and the investment banking division this is

:26:33.:26:36.

an opportunity for you to issue bonds on behalf of a company that

:26:36.:26:40.

need money. Is that a solution for you? No. At the moment the big

:26:40.:26:43.

banks have Government money to lend to businesses, they are still not

:26:43.:26:46.

doing it. There is something fundamentally wrong with our system.

:26:46.:26:50.

We need banks to get back to where they should be, which is keeping

:26:50.:26:54.

people's money safe and listening to customers. At the moment there

:26:54.:26:59.

is no proportion. People put money in accounts to see it grow, and if

:26:59.:27:02.

it is not growinging perhaps they think actually having some of the

:27:02.:27:06.

investment bankers doing a lot of work with the money they can lend,

:27:06.:27:10.

what would be wrong with that? balance has tipped in the wrong way.

:27:10.:27:14.

They are more interested to use money to make more money. We are

:27:14.:27:17.

saying at the moment there is no competition in the market, there is

:27:17.:27:20.

no incentive to be nice to customers at the other end, treat

:27:20.:27:23.

them well, make sure that they are lending, make sure that they are

:27:23.:27:26.

helping people save. Making sure they are growing the local economy.

:27:26.:27:30.

Is there a moral position the banks should be forced to take about that,

:27:30.:27:34.

that they should be doing good deeds, as it were, for their

:27:34.:27:37.

customers? I don't think they would put it quite like that. You need

:27:37.:27:41.

money going back into industry and customers. What you have got at the

:27:41.:27:44.

moment is a terrific lack of confidence in your bankers, that I

:27:44.:27:48.

think is veryed bad. That is undermining what is going on.

:27:48.:27:52.

do you restore confidence in bankers, the same breed as other

:27:52.:27:56.

people, and yet they are not trusted? I think what they have

:27:56.:27:59.

done has made people mistrust bankers, I think what they do

:27:59.:28:02.

essentially is a good job. The idea is to put money into the economy to

:28:02.:28:07.

lend to businesses, that is all very positive. But in what's

:28:07.:28:12.

happened since say 22008 they have lost confidence in their bankers.

:28:12.:28:15.

You have the same bank since you were 16 haven't you? I have had had

:28:15.:28:20.

an account with the, what's now the NatWest bank, part of RBS, I have

:28:20.:28:25.

had it since I was 16 years old, which is a very, very many decades

:28:25.:28:29.

ago. Why do you trust them?If I could just interrupt you, one of

:28:29.:28:34.

the things I would like to see improved comes from right here and

:28:34.:28:40.

the other media. Mervyn King the retiring Governor of the Bank of

:28:40.:28:45.

England said last month, and not a moment to soon -- too soon that it

:28:46.:28:50.

was time to stop demonising bankers, as long as people do that they

:28:50.:28:55.

can't behave like bankers. If more senior bankers would come on

:28:55.:28:59.

television programmes and explain themselves they would appear more

:28:59.:29:01.

transparent? I don't think transparency is particularly

:29:01.:29:04.

important, what happened is a lot of very big mistakes were made,

:29:04.:29:08.

they were made in the past, the changes in management have been

:29:08.:29:18.
:29:18.:29:19.

made and it is time to get on with lending money to business. Charles

:29:19.:29:23.

Saatchi, advertising mogul, gallery owner has been cautioned for

:29:23.:29:26.

assaulting his wife, the famous TV personality, Nigella Lawson, his

:29:26.:29:31.

hands on her throat. We don't know if they very public display of

:29:31.:29:37.

domestic violence goes on in private. The disturbing images will

:29:37.:29:41.

resonate with women who have had to suffer abuse at the hands of their

:29:41.:29:45.

partner. This is beautiful.What some people found so shocking is

:29:45.:29:49.

Nigella Lawson is portrayed and portrays herself as a woman very

:29:49.:29:53.

much in charge of her life, her work and her image, confident and

:29:53.:29:59.

happy, a par gone of domestic police. But pick -- paragone of

:29:59.:30:02.

domestic bliss. But pictures give a lie to that. She is said to be

:30:02.:30:07.

abroad considering her future. The assault, like that of Rihanna and

:30:07.:30:10.

Cheryl Gascoigne, has raised the profile of domestic violence again,

:30:11.:30:16.

and demonstrates that the rich and famous are not immune. According to

:30:16.:30:21.

the 2011/12 crime survey, 1.2 million women were victims of

:30:21.:30:26.

domestic abuse last year in England and Wales. The same survey found

:30:27.:30:31.

that 31% of women experienced domestic abuse at some point after

:30:31.:30:38.

the age of 16. Joining me now is the research manager scat ap

:30:38.:30:45.

respect Charity working with perpetrators of domestic violence

:30:45.:30:52.

and Hadley Freeman, an author on domestic violence. Is it shocking

:30:52.:30:56.

because she, Nigella Lawson, is the domestic violence, and how could

:30:56.:31:00.

somebody so rich and successful be in such a shocking position?

:31:00.:31:04.

much of her career has been presenting this image of domestic

:31:04.:31:08.

bliss, she can bake cakes with the beautiful house, the Aga and happy

:31:08.:31:12.

children. It is not shocking it has happened to her because she's rich

:31:12.:31:18.

and famous, there are many women throughout history, Tina Turner,

:31:18.:31:23.

Lana Turner and now Rihanna. Domestic violence is not for women

:31:23.:31:28.

in a certain class, there are no limits with religion, ethnicity and

:31:28.:31:32.

class, it happens across the spectrum. Would it be fair to say

:31:32.:31:36.

that for women who are rich or middle-class there are places they

:31:36.:31:41.

can go to hide it more than people who do not have that financial

:31:41.:31:45.

wherewithal? Certainly. But women stay with their abusers for more

:31:45.:31:49.

reasons than just practicalities. Interesting, we must be clear about

:31:49.:31:52.

it, we have no idea what else has happened in their relationship,

:31:52.:31:58.

what we do know is Charles Saatchi took the caution. But he also

:31:58.:32:03.

called it "a playful tiff" what signal does that send out? One of

:32:03.:32:07.

the depressing things about that comment is how common it is. Most

:32:07.:32:11.

men that I have worked with and my colleagues who I spoke today would

:32:11.:32:16.

confirm with, saying it was a tiff it didn't matter, it was nothing, I

:32:16.:32:19.

it didn't matter, it was nothing, I was just pushing against the wall,

:32:19.:32:24.

was just pushing against the wall, it was fall -- up against the wall,

:32:24.:32:31.

that was just that. Saying it was just a tiff is a common pattern of

:32:32.:32:35.

justification. So people we work with will typically minimise, deny

:32:35.:32:39.

or blame somebody else for the things they have done. And they

:32:39.:32:43.

will very often do this even today when the behaviour they have used

:32:43.:32:47.

is quite dangerous. You work with perpetrators of domestic violence

:32:47.:32:52.

generally, you know about some of these often repeated phrases. When

:32:52.:32:57.

we have a case and this could be a one-off we don't know, which is

:32:57.:33:00.

quite as startling as this, what impact does it have on the

:33:00.:33:05.

conversations that you have with people? I expect one of the things

:33:05.:33:08.

that will happen over the next few days, which often does, when there

:33:08.:33:15.

is a case like this, is calls to the Respect phone line, where

:33:15.:33:18.

people can phone if there are concerns about behaviour will go up.

:33:18.:33:24.

That happens when there is storylines on soap opera or real-

:33:24.:33:26.

life incidents. Although it can seem strange it is a good thing, it

:33:26.:33:30.

is a positive step to recognise you have a problem with your behaviour.

:33:30.:33:32.

What is interesting about this particular case, which we won't

:33:32.:33:38.

comment on in detail, I know, but being able to minimise it as just a

:33:38.:33:42.

tiff is very common, but also one way of evading, being able to take

:33:42.:33:44.

responsibility for it is not take advantage of the help there is.

:33:44.:33:48.

There is help available for men and the some women who want to stop

:33:48.:33:53.

being abusive to their partners. It is not the only way and people can

:33:53.:33:57.

change. What will be the impact on women and children seeing that

:33:57.:34:01.

image? I think it is terrifying. I'm amazed that some columnists

:34:01.:34:05.

have expressed amazement that this could happen to middle-class

:34:05.:34:08.

successful woman. The idea it is limited to the working-classes is

:34:08.:34:13.

disgusting and snoby, it is a very snoby attitude of some middle-class

:34:13.:34:17.

columnists and media commentators thinking this is an "other" problem.

:34:17.:34:24.

It is a widely held belief? Part of the problem is you don't see

:34:24.:34:30.

middle-class women in popular culture being abused, we see it in

:34:30.:34:35.

EastEnders, and the odd novel we see middle-class and upper-class

:34:35.:34:38.

women being abused but rarely TV shows. Because this is a public

:34:38.:34:43.

event, let's move away from this one and talk with Rihanna and Chris

:34:43.:34:48.

Brown, they went back together. What messages do people get from

:34:48.:34:50.

society? They are always very complex situations, but that was a

:34:50.:34:54.

straight down the line, he beat her up, she went back? That is a very

:34:55.:34:59.

common thing. As I'm sure you will agree. You look at history, Tina

:34:59.:35:03.

Turner stayed with Ike for years and years, women stay with their

:35:03.:35:08.

abusers for years for a whole shrew of reasons. The idea I found

:35:08.:35:14.

upsetting when women would get upset with Rihanna for staying with

:35:14.:35:20.

Chris Brown and as if she should be better. It doesn't place

:35:20.:35:24.

responsibility on the person causing the problem. The blame gets

:35:24.:35:27.

placed on the victim, as an organisation we try 0 make sure

:35:27.:35:30.

responsibility lies where it should, with the cause of the problem. So

:35:30.:35:35.

too often we see this, we see people, women who are victims of

:35:35.:35:38.

domestic violence being blamed and held responsible, Rihanna is a good

:35:38.:35:45.

case, she got a lot of vitriol from female fans or not fans, rather

:35:45.:35:48.

than responsibility placed on Chris Brown, which is extraordinary. One

:35:48.:35:52.

of the things we do when working with guys who have maybe never

:35:52.:35:56.

admitted it properly before, we try to make it possible for them to be

:35:56.:35:58.

able to say they did it, it was bad and they need to take

:35:58.:36:01.

responsibility for it. Thank you very much indeed. Before the end of

:36:01.:36:04.

the programme we will have tomorrow's front page, first we

:36:04.:36:08.

know three things about Russian oligarchs, one, they are incredibly

:36:08.:36:15.

rich, two, they sometimes end up in exile or jail, and three, possibly

:36:15.:36:20.

connected to one or two, they almost never talk. But Viktor

:36:20.:36:24.

Vekselberg, called the richest man in Russia, with a fortune estimated

:36:24.:36:29.

$18 billion, has given a rare and exclusive interview to Steven Smith,

:36:29.:36:34.

he talked about Putin, being unbelievably rich, and the

:36:34.:36:37.

oligarch's passion for the lost treasures of the Tsars, the Faberge

:36:37.:36:44.

Eggs. In a strong room, somewhere in

:36:44.:36:50.

London, the lost treasures of the - - Tsars. Faberge Eggs, some of the

:36:50.:36:53.

most priceless pieces in the History of Art. The Tsar of Russia

:36:53.:37:02.

gave them to his wife and mother as Easter gifts. But these imperial

:37:02.:37:08.

eggs, as they are known, aren't mere historical curiosities,

:37:08.:37:15.

centuries after they were created by July Carl Faberge, they are

:37:15.:37:19.

symbols of wealth and prestige in the new Russia and the oligarchs.

:37:19.:37:25.

Their new owner has been called the richest man in Russia, he paid a

:37:25.:37:29.

fortune for them. His people have let me look and touch, now I'm

:37:29.:37:35.

going to Russia to find him if I can.

:37:35.:37:40.

He is based here in Moscow. He bought nine imperial Faberge eggs

:37:40.:37:47.

from the Forbes Foundation in New York, in a private deal in 2004.

:37:47.:37:52.

One of his people told me if I came to this hotel in the city centre in

:37:52.:38:02.
:38:02.:38:02.

one hour he would see me. I'm about to meet my first Russian oligarch.

:38:02.:38:04.

From the outside the hotel does little to advertise its connection

:38:05.:38:10.

with the city's new rich. Unless you count the idling motorcade of

:38:10.:38:16.

police 4X4s. I'm meeting my oligarch in a bunker, two floors

:38:16.:38:20.

below street level, surrounded by some of his art collection. His

:38:20.:38:26.

name is Viktor Vekselberg, he is said to be worth more than $15

:38:26.:38:32.

billion. Just between us, how much did you pay for those Faberge Eggs?

:38:32.:38:40.

There is a slightly more than $100 million. Was it worth it?If you

:38:40.:38:44.

ask me what price for that, really for me it is absolutely difficult

:38:44.:38:50.

to say to you what it is. Do you have a warm glow inside? Absolutely,

:38:50.:38:55.

I have this warm glow, yes. Vekselberg controls one of Russia's

:38:55.:39:00.

largest oil and gas companies. And negotiated the biggest joint

:39:00.:39:07.

venture in Russian history with our own BP. I would like to take the

:39:07.:39:11.

opportunity to say thank you to BP because I used part of that money

:39:11.:39:15.

for cultural, art facts and collections. Other people in your

:39:15.:39:17.

position might have bought something else, I don't know, like

:39:17.:39:24.

a football club in London? I don't see it as negative for some Russian

:39:24.:39:30.

rich men to buy a football club, why not, but Faberge Eggs, this is

:39:30.:39:36.

part of Russian history and culture. And culture is something that

:39:36.:39:43.

Vekselberg likes to invest in. He created a foundation, The Link of

:39:43.:39:49.

Times, to look after his artwork. Do you live fairly modestly,

:39:49.:39:52.

because you could obviously indulge any whim you have, you could have a

:39:52.:39:59.

dozen helicopters if you wanted to? Absolutely, but I don't have time

:39:59.:40:08.

for toys. It is I'm a busy man. Vekselberg prefers reading and

:40:08.:40:13.

collecting. In living memory, many of his art facts of preSoviet

:40:13.:40:17.

Russia would have been despised as the play things of the ruling class.

:40:17.:40:23.

Now we are seen as part of the the story of the Russian nation state

:40:23.:40:29.

rediscovering her history. As President Putin -- has President

:40:29.:40:34.

Putin thanked him for buying back Faberge Eggs? Yes I see it is

:40:34.:40:41.

emotional for our President, it is very important for for Russian

:40:41.:40:47.

citizens to bring back this huge collection. Russia has huge stories

:40:47.:40:52.

with a lot of art facts, big culture. This is a piece of that.

:40:52.:40:56.

Some may feel that Russia has come full circle in a way, and that once

:40:56.:41:03.

again the country is dominated by a small group of people who have a

:41:03.:41:07.

disproportionate share of the wealth? On the one hand you are

:41:07.:41:13.

right. If we compare with the situation in Russia 25 years ago,

:41:13.:41:19.

the socialist time, of course everybody was equals. My parents

:41:19.:41:24.

were ordinary people and lived in a small apartment, we broke one

:41:24.:41:29.

system and we just started to build a new system. And we Russians we

:41:29.:41:36.

are very young, the new Russia like 20 years, so it is only one

:41:36.:41:43.

generation. Of course today we have some negative results of that

:41:43.:41:45.

transition period. We will have some big gap between the small

:41:45.:41:51.

group of rich men and the biggest part of the population not being so

:41:51.:41:56.

wealthy. But this is a process, I believe, this is a gap that will be

:41:56.:42:01.

reduced and reduced, and small businesses, middle-sized businesses

:42:01.:42:05.

will grow and the gap will be smaller and smaller. But it takes

:42:05.:42:09.

time. I believe we are going in the right direction. What is it like

:42:09.:42:15.

being one of the world's richest men? You ask a very difficult

:42:15.:42:21.

question. I think all the times people ask what does it mean to be

:42:21.:42:25.

wealthy? A lot of us dream of having a lot of money, rightly or

:42:25.:42:30.

wrongly, and you are living the dream, as they say? It doesn't

:42:30.:42:35.

matter Russia or in another country, so people don't like rich people. I

:42:35.:42:42.

have money but the question is how I use this opportunity? It is not

:42:42.:42:50.

easy, believe me, it is not easy. I'm an industrialist, I'm a

:42:50.:42:55.

businessman. It is very critical and important for Russia to keep

:42:55.:43:00.

the Russian economy from the raw material industry, it is not easy

:43:00.:43:05.

of the. It has needed a lot of efforts and a lot of patience,

:43:05.:43:10.

because this takes time. I do what I can do. But this is all my social

:43:10.:43:16.

obligation, I put my time, I put my money and I try to do the best with

:43:16.:43:21.

what I can. This may be my answer for your question, how I would like

:43:21.:43:28.

to spend money. I tried to see my country better and my people with

:43:28.:43:32.

more happiness. Fair enough, but it is not always a safe thing to be

:43:32.:43:38.

the richest guy in town, is it also a bit scary. Does it make you

:43:38.:43:42.

vulnerable? Now in Russia it is reasonably a table country, it is

:43:42.:43:48.

not so hugely criminal. I don't feel the big, big risk to be in

:43:48.:43:55.

Russia now. At the Kremlin, where Stalin once

:43:55.:44:00.

ordered that the treasures of the Tsars were flogged off to raise

:44:00.:44:05.

cash. Faberge's finest are now proudly displayed a short walk from

:44:05.:44:10.

President Putin's office. Carl Faberge's hard-boiled eggs have

:44:10.:44:15.

become instruments of soft power. But the richest man in Russia,

:44:15.:44:18.

helping to restore them to the motherland is in the national

:44:18.:44:26.

interest and his own. Steven Smith told me to egg you on to see his

:44:26.:44:30.

full documentary, The World's Most Beautiful Eggs, on BBC Four next

:44:30.:44:40.
:44:40.:45:11.

At the close of the G8 the group of the most powerful men and one woman

:45:11.:45:16.

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