27/06/2013 Newsnight


27/06/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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The chances of the lights in Britain going out in Britain are

:00:15.:00:19.

many times higher than we thought a year ago, came the warning today.

:00:19.:00:23.

Yet beneath these fields lie huge untapped reserves of gas. There is

:00:23.:00:27.

just the problem of extracting it. This boss of a fracking company

:00:27.:00:33.

swears it is safe to do so. This activist thinks it isn't. And this

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minister will have to decide as well as reassuring the rest of us

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the Government knows what it is doing.

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Also tonight: I feel like a criminal that I'm on

:00:43.:00:48.

benefits. I shouldn't do because we haven't been on full benefits. My

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partner used to work but he had had a breakdown.

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We test the claim that generation Y thinks benefits are too generous

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and we all have to stand on our own two feet.

:01:03.:01:08.

The riots in Brazil may have been relatively middle-class in origin,

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but how much do the people of the shantytowns support them.

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TRANSLATION: In my opinion Brazil is becoming more unequal, the era

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of slavery is not over yet. The only difference is that now we are

:01:20.:01:30.
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getting paid. That's it. Funny old dayk we discovered that successive

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British Governments have been so incompetent about energy supplies

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that in less than a year the risk of power cuts has trebled. But we

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also learned that Britain has probably twice as much shale gas

:01:47.:01:52.

under the earth than had been thought. "few" you might think,

:01:52.:01:59.

what is the talk of the odd earthquake and such. With the

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economy in its current etherised state, surely everyone is

:02:04.:02:13.

celebrating. No they are not. We explain why.

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Official warnings that we face a future when the lights will go out

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stepped up a notch today, as old oil plants and coal plants are shut

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and cleaner replacements are yet to be replaced. The blackout will be

:02:30.:02:36.

in 47 years, a new estimate put that at one in 12 years in 2015,

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and possibly one in four years if demand doesn't drop, as is expected.

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What a stroke of luck then that this morning we got eye-watering

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new figures on a huge untapped resource of shale gas, buried under

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a swathe of northern England. Suggesting a source of energy that

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has transformed the market in America.

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The Government is keen on renewables, nuclear and coal for a

:02:58.:03:02.

while longer, but the question now is could shale gas keep the lights

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on and the economy growing. Shale gas in the United States has

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had a huge impact, the price of gas in the United States, if you

:03:10.:03:15.

express it in oil terms is about $25 a barrel. That is a quarter of

:03:15.:03:18.

the price of oil. That is getting into the economy and it is a very

:03:18.:03:23.

flexible economy in the United States. It is brings prices down

:03:23.:03:27.

for industry and the consumer. It is giving a big economic boost.

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The numbers are impressive, the shale lies in two layers, some

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areas have gas held in a thin upper layer, some have it in a lower

:03:37.:03:44.

layer, others hold gas in both. In total, 1329 trillion cubic feet in

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this part of Britain alone. And there are unquantified shale

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resources elsewhere in the UK too. Shale gas is extracted through

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fracking, a process which frees gas trapped thousands of feet below

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ground by pumping millions of gallons of wart, plus sand and

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chemicals into a well, lined with alternate layers of metal tubing

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and casing. Done report properly it can be safe. But if there is corner

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cutting then the risk of problems goes up. Local communities where

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fracking first began have complained of gas leaks into their

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water wells, earth tremors and huge disruption as the wells are dug.

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Exploratory fracking in the UK in Lancashire also caused small

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earthquakes and some here worry about the effect that might have on

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house prices. One key question is can methane gas escaping from wells

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be minimiseed so it doesn't reach ground water. This is a former gas

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engineer, Mike Hill, who used to work in the industry. He's not

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against fracking, but he lives locally and wants to ensure it is

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done properly. I think understandably the general public

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and the people in this area don't really know what's coming down the

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line to them at this point in time until it happens. When they see,

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over a period of time, ten years, for example, 3,400 wells being

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drilled, flaring, truck, chemicals, total industrialisation of the

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coast, damage to the tourist industry, damage to the

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agricultural sector, people will be very angry indeed. What I say to

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people in the public meetings in Lancashire is this is the price

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that the coast has to pay for the benefit of the nation.

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The industry says that once producing the well heads sit

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quietly on a pad and can be hidden from view. What's more they are

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offering local people an incentive, at least �100,000 for each well

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where fracking takes place to explore, and 1% of revenues if

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drilling proves commercially viable. Government promises it will be

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properly regulated. Whether it is water issues, which the Environment

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Agency has a robust regime on. Whether it is the integrity of the

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wells that are dug, with independent well examiners that we

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have used for many decades in the North Sea. Whether it is methane

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emissions and so on, we have taken a very robust approach to making

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sure this can be done in a way that is safer, safer for communities,

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property and the environment. burn more gas and want to keep

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carbon emissions down, we will need technology like this. Burning gas

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releases half the carbon dioxide emissions of coal. This

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demonstration plant at London's Imperial College, traps those

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emissions to be stored, called carbon capture and storage. It will

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be many years before shale gas comes on stream, in the meantime

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coal will play an important part in our energy mix. Both our fossil

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fuels and technology being developed here to capture carbon

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dioxide emissions will be really important if we want to minimise

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the impact of emissions from the industry and energy tech sectors. -

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- energy sectors. Today so energy announcements, including renewables

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and a multibillion guarantee to raise finance for a new nuclear

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power station at Hinkley Point in Somerset. This is the day the

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Government says the search for shale gas gets serious, as it seeks

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to keep the public on side and the lights on. With us now is the

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Energy Minister, Michael Fallon, also with us Andrew Austin the

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chief executive of iGas Energy, which has fracking sites in the UK.

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And Jenny Banks, the energy spokesperson for the WWF UK.

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Can we speak for a moment or two about the electrical shortage and

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the predictions. Does the word "negligence" occur to you at all?

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From previous Governments that didn't build enough power station,

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they knew the nuclear would come offline in a few years time, they

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didn't do anything to replace nuclear power, they didn't build

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enough stations. How many have closed since you came to office?

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few have had to close because of European regulation and they have

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come off line. Have any opened? Only one is being built at the

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moment, others are gas generation, others have consent but the world

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gas price doesn't allow that. stories running in tomorrow

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morning's newspapers about how factories and businesses are going

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to be asked to switch off in order that power isn't cut to people's

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homes in 2015, are they true? The latest assessment is, as shown,

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that the position is slightly worse than the previous assessment last

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year. And they have got to make sure, the regulator, Ofgem, has to

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make sure with all the tools at its disposal bringing the mothball

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plant out back in action, back on- line, but all the tools it has at

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its disposal it has to make sure the lights stay on and they will.

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That is based on heroic assumptions about a lacklustre performance in

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the economy, is that correct? based overall, they do assessments

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of what demand is likely to be. They have to assess what plants

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will be lost to the system, what new plant is coming on. There is a

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lot of wind farms coming on the system. They make that assessment,

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I assure you the lights won't go out. You can give us that

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categorical assurance, and supposing in the unlikely event

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that the economy suddenly improves, that will still be true? They

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factor in the growth in the economy as well as everything else. Can you

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tell us on the question of shale gas, what status does David

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Cameron's promise to be the greenest Government ever have now?

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We are meeting our targets. We are still on track to decarbonise the

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economy. To meet our obligations under European and international

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treaties, to make sure that we bring on more renewables. Shale gas

:09:50.:09:54.

is the cleanest form of fossil fuel there is. It is a new form of

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fossil fuel isn't it? It is new, it doesn't mean we don't meet our

:10:00.:10:03.

decarbonisation target. We can do that as well. How does producing a

:10:03.:10:07.

new fossil fuel to the mix equate with being the cleanest Government

:10:07.:10:10.

ever? A couple of minutes ago you said we would be short of energy.

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This adds to the mix. You have a choice about how you meet the gap?

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We have to meet it at home. We can't keep importing very expensive

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energy from abroad at a time of very volatile prices. You have

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given up on green energy have you? No we have not. We are going to

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meet our green targets. We will meet our renewables target. Have

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you met the Green Deal target? have started on that, it is a new

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scheme and only just opened. many homes have signed up? We have

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had several thousand assessments being done. How many have signed up

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to? I don't know how many have signed up. It is a very new scheme,

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it will run for 20, 30 years as people build energy efficiency into

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their homes. Going to the question of shale gas, is it safe to extract

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it? It will only be done, it will only be extracted if it is safe. We

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had a moratorium on this structure. You don't know? We will make sure.

:10:57.:11:00.

Now they will have to not only have a license and planning permission,

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they will have to have permits from the Environment Agency. They will

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have to authorisation from Health & Safety Executives, they will have

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to have all these permits to make sure it is extracted safely and

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properly without damaging the environment. Just to be clear about

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this, you are offering communities bribes of �100,000 a pop to have

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one of these extraction plants, experimental extraction plants

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without knowing whether it is safe or not? The developers are offering

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community some compensation for the disruption that there is going to

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be. That is nothing to do with the Government. It is an offer from the

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industry. You are going to give them tax breaks? Let me be clear,

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they won't be allowed to extract unless the method is judged safe by

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the Environment Agency and the Health & Safety Executive. Andrew

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Austin, is it safe, can you guarantee that? Yes, yes.There is

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no danger whatsoever? There is rigorous background to how we

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extract oil and gas in this country. We have been doing it for many

:11:58.:12:05.

years on shore. Both on shore and off shore. The UK in boat

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environments has a long history of safe and proper regulation of those

:12:08.:12:14.

processes. The largest oil and gas field on shore in Europe is in the

:12:14.:12:17.

UK and has been conducting operations for the last 25 years.

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The Government has added to the level of regulation today and the

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level of control and building on that gold standard of history of

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how to regulate this industry. the Blackpool earth tremors? Were,

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as the Durham Energy Institute said were extremely small and were of a

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level that would be involved in most other extractive industries

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like coal mining or gravel extraction. I think the phrase the

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professor used "it is a bit like jumping off a step ladder in terms

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of the impact". We still stopped it to check and make sure the system

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was robust. It is only since Christmas we have allowed fracking

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to resume. The consequence of this will be lower energy bills, that is

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a good thing, isn't it? It would be a good thing, but actually if you

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have a look at some of the studies, the serious analytical studies done

:13:08.:13:14.

by Bloomberg New Energy Finance and others, that there will be no

:13:14.:13:18.

impact or negligible impact on the cost of gas in the short-term, up

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to 2025 or later. That is predicated on actually getting this

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gas out of the ground. Will it have an impact on gas prices? Yes, I

:13:26.:13:30.

think it will. Not to necessarily push them down dramatically in the

:13:30.:13:34.

same way as the states. You more or less agree on that? Rather than to

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put a cap on gas prices that will give more people confidence to

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invest in industry et. Actually it will have an impact -- et cetera.

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It actually will have an impact to home bills that they won't rise

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than they would necessarily, if the country continues to rely on

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imported energy. I thought you were suggesting they would drive down

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prices? They clearly have in the United States both for household

:13:58.:14:01.

and industry, that has been extreme low important for the revival of

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the economy in the United States. That's why it would be pretty

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irresponsible not to encourage the industry to go down and see if the

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shale can be recovered in the same way. We don't know that yet. We

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don't know whether it can be recovered in sufficient volume to

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drive down prices. But it would be quite wrong not to check. It would

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be wrong, it would be idiotic not to check wouldn't it? It depends

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what your objectives are, what we are looking at, and what our

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biggest concern about shale gas is, climate change. We are looking at

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it from this context. An organisation called Carbon Tracker,

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recently revealed we have listed on stock exchanges across the world

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five-times more fossil fuels globally than we can burn if we are

:14:44.:14:48.

no meet the target to keep temperature rises within two

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degrows. That doesn't include resources like shale gas, if you

:14:51.:14:54.

are then taking shale gas out of the ground that is increasing the

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already too many fossil fuels that we have. So you object to this

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really on principle, that it is a fossil, a further fossil fuel?

:15:03.:15:08.

at some point if we are going to tackle. All the other, the danger

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is icing on the cake? We are an environmental organisation we care

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about climate change and local environmental impacts and their

:15:15.:15:20.

effect on people. But our view is that really climate change is the

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one thing that whatever you do about the local environmental

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impacts and they absolutely need to be addressed and there is some of

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the science is still really quite uncertain. What is the worst that

:15:30.:15:35.

could happen from extracting this stuff? Well, there was a study

:15:35.:15:40.

released recently from Duke's University in the US that suggested

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that the well bores themselves are leaking methane, they found

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consntraigss of methane between six and seven-times higher in shale gas

:15:51.:15:54.

areas to non-shale gas areas. That is one of the potential concerns

:15:54.:15:58.

there are a number of others. with that? One of the things that

:15:58.:16:01.

the Government is actually insistent on, and one of the

:16:01.:16:04.

reasons why the more tain yum was in place, was to ensure that the

:16:05.:16:09.

right level of background monitoring was carried out prior to

:16:09.:16:12.

any operations. Prior to any operations we carry out we have to

:16:12.:16:18.

monitor both the ground water and background size movement, and

:16:18.:16:24.

natural low occurring earth tremors, so one can detect any changes

:16:24.:16:28.

happening. The university study had no background information prior to

:16:28.:16:30.

that happening. You will be able to tell us after the event that there

:16:30.:16:34.

has been a pollution event? there is a clear set of traffic

:16:34.:16:38.

lights set out with the Environment Agency. After the event?No, on the

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way through the event. Especially in terms of tracking. If it is

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monitored week by week it can only report what has happened? It can

:16:48.:16:52.

report any seismic activity. soon as something like Take That

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happens you stop. -- as soon as something like that happens you

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stop. We will have more discussion about

:17:00.:17:02.

that again. Of it the day of rage after the

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night before today, except it wasn't. The news that yet again the

:17:05.:17:10.

burden of salvaging the economy is to fall first on those who most

:17:10.:17:15.

depend upon its benefits system hasn't stirred up a hornet's nest.

:17:15.:17:19.

Opposition to the plan is the dog that didn't bark. It seems to

:17:19.:17:22.

represent a growing and changing consensus, in particular attitudes

:17:22.:17:28.

seem to have changed among younger voters. Generation Y as the under-

:17:28.:17:31.

34s are called, they have a different set of beliefs from those

:17:32.:17:34.

of their parents and grandparents. We will speak to three from this

:17:34.:17:42.

group in a few minutes. First here is Paul Mason.

:17:42.:17:46.

For ten years Sarah Sullivan lived in a one bedroom council flat with

:17:46.:17:50.

her partner and four children. Then she got moved by housing

:17:50.:17:57.

association to a four bedroomed house in Orpington, Kent. It was

:17:57.:18:00.

like Christmass all in one when we got this because my children had

:18:00.:18:05.

their own bedroom, their faces, it was absolutely lovely to see their

:18:05.:18:08.

faces. Now because one daughter has moved out they have been told to

:18:08.:18:13.

move to a smaller house or pay �21 extra a week. I feel like a

:18:13.:18:17.

criminal that I'm on benefits. I shouldn't though because we haven't

:18:17.:18:22.

been on full benefits, my partner used to work, but he had had a

:18:22.:18:27.

breakdown. It is a big difference to if we had the �21. We would move,

:18:27.:18:33.

but the thing is my son is going to secondary school in September and

:18:33.:18:38.

for us to uproot and go somewhere else, they can't say they can give

:18:38.:18:42.

us another property where we are, it is, I don't want to do it to my

:18:42.:18:45.

children, it is not fair. Sarah's partner is long-term sick, so they

:18:45.:18:50.

live on ESA, child benefit, housing benefit. A general cap on welfare

:18:50.:18:54.

spending would affect them. So what does she think of that. Why

:18:55.:18:59.

shouldn't we have a cap on benefit spending? We should, there is

:18:59.:19:03.

people out there that are scroungers, but then there is

:19:03.:19:08.

people like myself and my partner who really need the help. It is

:19:08.:19:11.

hard to get the help because of the other people how hard they have

:19:11.:19:14.

made it for us. Yesterday the Government signalled a whole new

:19:14.:19:19.

ball game when it comes to benefits. Two groups of people need to be

:19:19.:19:23.

satisfied with our welfare system. Those who need it, who are old, who

:19:23.:19:27.

are vulnerable, who are disabled, or lost their job, and who we as a

:19:27.:19:30.

compassionate society want to support. There is a second group,

:19:30.:19:35.

the people who pay for this welfare system, who go out to work, who pay

:19:35.:19:41.

their taxes and expect it to be fair on them too. But public

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attitudes have turned against welfare. On thes state where Sarah

:19:44.:19:47.

lives official figures show unemployment levels double the

:19:47.:19:52.

national average and half the families are single parent families.

:19:52.:19:56.

But 20 minutes away by train and you are in streets awash with

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finance and fashion, and among the wider population is seems that even

:20:00.:20:03.

Labour people now have what we thought were Tory attitudes to the

:20:03.:20:06.

poor. This graph shows the percentage of

:20:06.:20:09.

people surveyed who said the Government should spend more on

:20:09.:20:13.

been fits for the poor. Among Labour people, where it was once

:20:13.:20:18.

close to 80%, it is now below half, among Conservative voters where it

:20:18.:20:23.

started at about half it is now just 20%. And what's most striking

:20:23.:20:28.

is the change in attitudes among the young. Among those under-35,

:20:28.:20:34.

those wanting more spent on benefits has fallen from 50% to 20%.

:20:34.:20:38.

There is a perception that all people on benefits have been in

:20:38.:20:42.

receipt of extra money from the welfare system. In fact, if you

:20:42.:20:46.

look at people who are out of work and on jobseeker's allowance, they

:20:46.:20:50.

have had no real increase in the benefits available to them for 20

:20:50.:20:55.

or 30 years. But they are the ones who are receiving the brunt of

:20:55.:20:58.

people's anger against perceptions about fraud and dishonesty within

:20:58.:21:03.

the well from state. Life in a place like this can be tough, above

:21:03.:21:08.

all for the young, they know their lives are being scrutinised and

:21:08.:21:11.

generalisations being made, most people are just as keen as the

:21:11.:21:15.

Government to see the welfare system working fairly. Attitudes

:21:15.:21:18.

towards people receiving benefits have been hardening now for about

:21:18.:21:22.

two decades, since the financial crisis something has changed. The

:21:22.:21:26.

survival strategy of the young seems to be work at all costs for

:21:26.:21:30.

low wages or even no wages. And that has changed what they think

:21:30.:21:34.

the state and taxation should be used for.

:21:34.:21:38.

I think it is very difficult for the bulk of the population to fully

:21:38.:21:41.

understand what it is like to be reliant upon the state for

:21:41.:21:46.

everything. And then be subject to the changes that happen in the

:21:46.:21:48.

amount of income that comes in through the door. There are

:21:49.:21:51.

families right now struggling to make decisions between whether to

:21:51.:21:54.

heat their home or feed their children. That is a reality. That

:21:54.:21:57.

is something we see within our bureau. I think that is a million

:21:57.:22:01.

miles away from a lot of the population. And Sarah, who has to

:22:01.:22:05.

live on welfare, but is all too well aware of the fall in public

:22:05.:22:10.

support for it has a challenge. in my shoes for a week or a month

:22:10.:22:14.

and see how it is. It is easy for people to say oh you are doing this

:22:14.:22:18.

and that, but then they don't know the full circumstances. Unless they

:22:18.:22:23.

have been in my shoes, then they can say OK. Do you think they want

:22:23.:22:29.

to know? No. There is a lot of ignorance out there. A lot of

:22:29.:22:36.

ignorance. With us now is a member of the tax-

:22:36.:22:40.

payers' alliance, and an author of Jilted Generation, and the

:22:40.:22:46.

columnist at the New Statesman, all a part of the called "generation Y".

:22:46.:22:51.

You must have all observed this, it is quite apparent on certain

:22:51.:22:56.

occasions, why do you think it is that younger people seem to be

:22:56.:22:59.

turning against the welfare system? It is actually quite a complex

:22:59.:23:02.

issue, I think the first thing to say is that young people actually

:23:02.:23:06.

tend not to be in receipt of some of those universal benefits and

:23:06.:23:10.

advantages that a lot of people expected them to be. But they are,

:23:10.:23:13.

actually, bearing the brunt of the recession in the sense that they

:23:13.:23:17.

are the ones most likely to be unemployed. About 40% of those

:23:17.:23:20.

unemployed in Britain are under 30. It is really centered in this

:23:20.:23:25.

cohort. And yet actually they want themselves to be able to stand on

:23:25.:23:28.

their own two feet. They are finding they can't. As a result

:23:28.:23:32.

they are actually becoming dependant, not just on the state,

:23:32.:23:35.

however mealy-mouthed it is to their problems, but also on their

:23:35.:23:39.

parents. And yet they feel they have in some respects a worse life

:23:39.:23:44.

than their parents, what they are entitled to expect? Actually living

:23:44.:23:48.

standards are worse for somebody working on average in their 20s

:23:48.:23:52.

than a grandparent in their 80s now. The standard of living is lower.

:23:52.:23:57.

They are right to feel that way. Why do you think there has been

:23:57.:24:02.

this apparent change? I think it is very funny isn't it that we are

:24:02.:24:04.

suddenly so interested in what young people think and what young

:24:04.:24:08.

people have to say. Young people have been squeezed hardest and poor

:24:08.:24:11.

people have been squeezed hardest over the past three years of this

:24:11.:24:14.

coalition Government and in the five years since the crash. And

:24:14.:24:17.

young people have had a lot of opinions about he hadcation, about

:24:17.:24:22.

the tripling of university fees and the move We are talking about

:24:22.:24:25.

benefit now? When people came out on to the streets and answered the

:24:25.:24:28.

opinion polls in their thousands saying they were against those

:24:28.:24:30.

changes, people didn't pay attention. On this occasion they

:24:30.:24:36.

are supporting George Osborne? necessarily. They are. Let's look

:24:36.:24:40.

at this. I'm going to show you a graph now, it will show you what

:24:40.:24:47.

opinion has done on the question of, the question was put "if welfare

:24:47.:24:50.

benefits weren't so generous people would learn to stand on their own

:24:50.:24:54.

two feet" the number of people agreeing is the blue line, soaring

:24:54.:24:58.

in recent years, and previous recessions it hasn't? I can see the

:24:58.:25:03.

graph, Jeremy. What has happened over the past three years there has

:25:03.:25:07.

been a sustained campaign of lies and disinformation being spread

:25:07.:25:11.

about what benefits mean, about who get them. There has been a campaign

:25:11.:25:14.

of shame and alienation against young people and working people in

:25:14.:25:18.

this country. It is no surprise that people. Are they too stupid to

:25:18.:25:23.

see through it? I'm not saying that, this Government is much better at

:25:23.:25:27.

PR than it is at fixing the economy. What do you think the reason is?

:25:27.:25:31.

According to Laurie it is all the media's fault. No, she's not

:25:31.:25:35.

blaming the media, she's blaming the Government? Generation Y have

:25:35.:25:39.

seen they have become less reliant on welfare. They have become more

:25:39.:25:43.

typical liberal, they believe in lower taxes, limited welfare.

:25:43.:25:48.

no. That is the British, that is what the British Association

:25:48.:25:54.

attitude survey shows, it shows it is developing over a -- British

:25:54.:26:02.

Association attitude survey shows. You are more liberal on social

:26:02.:26:07.

attitudes? They haven't embraced the teachings of Milton Friedman

:26:07.:26:10.

these people are massively insecure, they have been failed by society

:26:10.:26:13.

and are bearing the brunt of unemployment. If people feel they

:26:13.:26:17.

have no stake in society why should they feel the welfare state has

:26:17.:26:20.

anything to give them. People our age and younger have grown up

:26:20.:26:23.

believing that society has no stake in them, has nothing to offer them.

:26:23.:26:29.

It is no surprise that people are feeling that welfare is not what

:26:29.:26:33.

people should be relying on. Welfare has been madly insufficient

:26:33.:26:39.

for years. I'm not sure...Why they asking for more of it? People

:26:39.:26:42.

are asking for more of it. graph shows precisely the reverse

:26:42.:26:47.

of that. The fact is younger people are incredibly realistic about the

:26:47.:26:53.

fact that their retirements aren't going to be paid for. They are more

:26:53.:26:56.

individualistic and liberal in their outlook, they get used to the

:26:56.:26:59.

state not providing anything. Whether we like it or not, we are

:26:59.:27:03.

all children of Thatcher because she has changed the political

:27:03.:27:09.

debate and what we are looking at. Are they more self-sufficient?

:27:09.:27:15.

is not the state who gave them the iPhone. More people young men are

:27:15.:27:20.

living with their parents. Is that what Thatcher wanted, 30% of young

:27:20.:27:23.

people living with their parents. Our younger generation is being

:27:23.:27:25.

priced out of the housing ladder, and finding it more difficult to

:27:26.:27:29.

get on the job market. What is the solution to that. They are not

:27:29.:27:32.

standing on their own two feet, they are living with their parents

:27:32.:27:36.

and unemployed on a mass scale. We have the third-highest youth

:27:36.:27:39.

unemployment in the OECD. That is a massive question that both

:27:40.:27:43.

political parties have to answer. It touch on benefits because young

:27:43.:27:48.

people actually are massively in receipt of them. If they are

:27:48.:27:51.

against benefits what it says is they are desperately self-reliant

:27:51.:27:55.

because they have been taught that nobody else is going to help them.

:27:55.:28:01.

We have a responsibility to, surely. Isn't it admirable to have a sense

:28:01.:28:07.

of self-sufficiency? It isn't that, because it is not self-sufficiency,

:28:07.:28:10.

but they are reloint on their parents and what their parents --

:28:10.:28:14.

reliant on their parents and what they can do. They are reliant on

:28:14.:28:17.

JSA because they can't get job. They can't be self-sufficient

:28:17.:28:21.

because they haven't been given the tool to build stable adult lives.

:28:21.:28:26.

That is the crisis. What the Government calls standing on your

:28:26.:28:29.

two feet others call abandonment, which has happened to young people

:28:29.:28:34.

in this country. That doesn't explain why there is the support

:28:34.:28:38.

for cutting benefits? Shame explains it, there is a campaign

:28:38.:28:43.

against all people who are poor and in receipt of benefits, most of

:28:43.:28:46.

whom work and are tax-payers too. And you should represent their

:28:46.:28:49.

interests. Maybe it is young people want to get on. I'm sure they want

:28:49.:28:54.

to get on. They don't see well fare as an alternative in work. Creating

:28:54.:29:02.

jobs helps them. I actually see it as making sure work pays, so not

:29:02.:29:06.

taxing the lower paid to provide elsewhere. Young people don't see

:29:06.:29:10.

benefits as the answer but work as the answer. Why has the

:29:10.:29:14.

Conservative Government cut 140,000 jobs, they are destroying jobs not

:29:14.:29:17.

creating jobs and taking away welfare leaving people to starve.

:29:17.:29:20.

Foodbanks are on the rise, young people are living in crowded houses

:29:21.:29:25.

in London. There has been a desmakes of welfare of education

:29:25.:29:32.

and people are starving. This, I think, is the essential point,

:29:32.:29:36.

there was a plan, a strategy that Labour pursued in Government, which

:29:36.:29:40.

was to try to embed benefits throughout all of society for the

:29:40.:29:44.

greatest possible degree. The idea was when the crash came, when the

:29:44.:29:48.

Tories got in those been fits wouldn't be cut. Because they were

:29:49.:29:53.

embedded in the rest of the society. Actually it has been very easy to

:29:53.:29:57.

cut those benefits, it turns out most people in Britain don't want

:29:57.:30:01.

to be dependant on benefits. The people on the margin are indulging

:30:01.:30:05.

in benefit fraud, most of them are living very miserable lives. That

:30:05.:30:08.

is why it is not popular, because nobody wants to be on benefits,

:30:08.:30:12.

they want to build sustainable, coherent adult lives. It is only

:30:12.:30:16.

that people don't want to be on benefits, they realise it is not

:30:16.:30:19.

sustainable to have a system where the welfare state has gone from

:30:19.:30:22.

helping the most vulnerable and being a safety net to where it is

:30:22.:30:25.

topping up incomes. What the Government needs to be looking at

:30:25.:30:28.

doing is given that generation Y want to get on and work, it is

:30:28.:30:34.

ensuring that work pays. What will happen as generation Y get older?

:30:34.:30:38.

Generation Y is incredibly realistic about what their

:30:38.:30:42.

prospects are for retirement. More people believe the moon landings

:30:42.:30:45.

were faked than the state providing for their current retirement. That

:30:45.:30:51.

was TPA polling. We know people are realistic about it, they want to

:30:51.:30:55.

save and get on, but the Government need to get out of the way. How is

:30:55.:31:00.

getting out of the way solve things for the mill yun young people out

:31:00.:31:05.

of work now not knowing what their future will hold, living miserable

:31:05.:31:10.

lives. How is making work pay going to help that. What you call it that,

:31:10.:31:14.

most people call it cutting benefits more. It is not, it is

:31:14.:31:17.

enabling the economy to grow. Rather than burdening family

:31:17.:31:21.

budgets and businesses out there taking on young people, ensuring

:31:21.:31:24.

that taxes aren't actually destroying economic growth, but

:31:24.:31:27.

that's the policy that you keep arguing. Because the economy is

:31:27.:31:33.

doing really well. Because we front-loaded the tax rises. You are

:31:33.:31:38.

looking baffled? Making work pay, middle-class pay, and most pages

:31:38.:31:41.

have been stagnant, it is not just about ensuring that the state can

:31:41.:31:44.

get out of the way of people. It isen suring that businesses pay

:31:44.:31:48.

decent wages and the he economy is growing. These are the big -- and

:31:48.:31:54.

the economy is growing, and these are the big issues, I don't feel

:31:54.:31:58.

any party is doing that. Are you losing the argument with your

:31:58.:32:01.

contemporaries? If you look at the polling, what is most interesting

:32:01.:32:06.

is 40% of young people do not feel connected to any political party or

:32:06.:32:09.

any argument being made in Government at all. Young people

:32:09.:32:13.

right now and poor people have been abandoned by mainstream political

:32:13.:32:17.

discourse. Most of this has no impact on how ordinary people are

:32:17.:32:21.

living their lives on the breadline right now. Food banks are on the

:32:21.:32:25.

rise, people have no idea. In many cases how they are going to have

:32:25.:32:29.

the next meal, never mind make the next rent cheque.

:32:29.:32:34.

Thank you very much. We will have more from Paul Mason in a few

:32:35.:32:38.

minutes. First television's affection for helmets and teargas

:32:38.:32:41.

and noise in general means hardly anyone can be unaware of the fact

:32:41.:32:45.

that there are riot going on in Brazil. Some of the pictures are

:32:45.:32:49.

quite dramatic. But what are they about. They began in the middle-

:32:49.:32:53.

class, although unlike other protestors who dream of bringing

:32:53.:32:58.

down dictator or spreading freedom, the Brazilians seem to have more

:32:58.:33:03.

blooding ambition, they didn't like prices -- plodding ambition, they

:33:03.:33:06.

didn't like price going up on transport or the staging of the

:33:06.:33:09.

football World Cup. What about the poor of Brazil who have reason

:33:09.:33:17.

enough to complain, perhaps. We went to find out.

:33:17.:33:21.

A journey through Rio is a journey through discontent. However fast

:33:22.:33:29.

Brazil's progress, it is not fast enough.

:33:29.:33:35.

See it through the ice of Pedro Vicenti, who drives the number 415

:33:35.:33:40.

bus. His parents are illiterate, a maid and a street vendor, he has a

:33:40.:33:45.

steady job and is saving to go to university. He and the diverse

:33:45.:33:52.

crowd of citizens he carries are dissatisfied. One of the striking

:33:52.:33:57.

things about the protests here is they haven't set one section of

:33:57.:34:00.

society against another, as revolutions often do, as certainly

:34:00.:34:05.

happened in the recent unrest in Turkey. On the contrary, they seem

:34:05.:34:08.

to have united social classes, who usually have very different

:34:09.:34:18.

interests. Now Brazilians from all walks of life feel betrayed by

:34:18.:34:22.

leader, but it is the young, the educated and the middle-class who

:34:22.:34:27.

have driven protests. Those at the bottom of the heap, in Rio's

:34:27.:34:33.

shantytowns, the fafvel lows, have largely -- favelas, have largely

:34:33.:34:40.

stayed at home. Daisy is one of the 11 million Brazilian mothers who

:34:40.:34:45.

gets payments for keeping their children in school. The family

:34:45.:34:48.

allowance scheme aims to lift families like Daisy's out of

:34:48.:34:52.

poverty. Many economyists say it is succeeding. But it is not enough to

:34:53.:34:59.

keep this family loyal to the President. TRANSLATION: People

:34:59.:35:03.

voted for her because they thought she would do the same things the

:35:03.:35:06.

last person would because they are from the same party. She's not

:35:06.:35:12.

doing the same things he did. That was why he was able to run Brazil

:35:12.:35:15.

for eight years. She doing bad things. He helped much more, prices

:35:16.:35:20.

were not so expensive. The main reason they don't take to

:35:20.:35:25.

the streets, they say, is fear of police violence. More likely to be

:35:25.:35:29.

directed against slum dwellers than against the middle-class. But Daisy

:35:29.:35:34.

and her 16-year-old daughter, Larissa, are with the protestors in

:35:34.:35:41.

spirit. We come from England and in the outside world people are really

:35:41.:35:46.

impressed by Brazil. They say that Brazil is getting better and better,

:35:46.:35:50.

it is getting richer and richer. It is going to have the World Cup, it

:35:50.:35:57.

is going to have the Olympics? But it doesn't feel like that to you?

:35:57.:36:05.

How does it seem to you? TRANSLATION: It is not what it

:36:05.:36:09.

seems to be. I think they are hiding the truth. They are showing

:36:09.:36:18.

something fake. TRANSLATION: They are lying, it is terrible here,

:36:18.:36:23.

everything is terrible. The only thing I see improving are

:36:23.:36:27.

the stadium for the World Cup, just that and we don't need it. We don't

:36:27.:36:32.

need stadiums we need hospitals. Larissa wants to be a doctor, but

:36:32.:36:37.

show says she's not getting the education she needs. -- but she

:36:37.:36:40.

says she's not getting the education she needs. Her school is

:36:40.:36:43.

in the middle of the slum. She's back now after taking a short time

:36:43.:36:48.

off to have a baby. In the past many children dropped out of school.

:36:48.:36:53.

Working to support their families, some joining the drug gangs that

:36:53.:36:59.

control the favela. Now the family allowance payments keep them in

:36:59.:37:04.

class. There are more teachers, and more music, sport and other

:37:04.:37:08.

activities to stimulate pupils. So does the headteacher think that

:37:08.:37:13.

the protestors who complained so bitterly about Brazil's schools are

:37:13.:37:18.

simply ungrateful for what the Government has done? TRANSLATION:

:37:18.:37:22.

No, I don't think so they are ungrateful. I think they understand

:37:22.:37:26.

their benefit. But we need to demand from the state even more

:37:26.:37:30.

investment in education. One thing does not cancel the other. They

:37:30.:37:35.

receive these been fits from the people they voted for. -- these

:37:35.:37:39.

benefits from the people they voted for. That is why they have the

:37:39.:37:43.

right to demand more jobs, investment, that is a natural part

:37:43.:37:49.

of democracy. The 415 is emptying as Pedro heads into leafy parts of

:37:49.:37:54.

town. The authorities hope the streets will empty as they offer

:37:54.:37:57.

ever more concessions. Fair increases have been withdrawn, more

:37:57.:38:05.

cash promised for transport, schools and healthcare.

:38:05.:38:10.

The protesters' demands are growing, some Brazilians are getting a taste

:38:10.:38:20.
:38:20.:38:29.

for street politics. Among them the driver of the 415.

:38:29.:38:32.

TRANSLATION: In 27 years this is the first time something like this

:38:32.:38:36.

has happened. If there is a protest every day then I will be here every

:38:36.:38:41.

day. Because it is beautiful to see all these people together. It gives

:38:41.:38:44.

me goosebumps and I have never seen anything like this before. I

:38:44.:38:54.

believe that this time something really is going to change. This

:38:54.:38:58.

week the crowd won another victory, the defeat of a measure that would

:38:58.:39:03.

have limited prosecutors' powers to investigate corruption. Why were

:39:03.:39:07.

Brazil's politicians caught so off guard? I have come to meet the

:39:07.:39:17.

Mayor of Rio. Brazil is a democracy, I mean, the democracy has to get

:39:17.:39:21.

more mature and improve. I think there is a problem with democracy,

:39:21.:39:28.

representive democracy all over the world. On that level, on that basic

:39:28.:39:31.

services, what can you tell me today that you will offer the

:39:31.:39:35.

people who are still coming out on to the street who say education

:39:35.:39:39.

isn't good enough, the health isn't good enough, what will you give

:39:39.:39:44.

them? You have been to one of the schools of tomorrow. We did lots of

:39:44.:39:47.

good things in the past few years for the education system. People

:39:47.:39:51.

want more. That is the good thing about Brazilian democracy. On

:39:51.:39:59.

education I it tell you it is not a problem of money. How can it not be

:39:59.:40:02.

a problem with with money, primary school teachers earn so little

:40:02.:40:07.

money. You are responsible for that? If you comair to the wages,

:40:07.:40:12.

to the sal -- If you compare to the wages and salaries of Brazil it is

:40:12.:40:17.

not that bad. To the man on the bus that is pretty complacent. But some

:40:17.:40:21.

are uneasy that what started as a campaign about public transport has

:40:21.:40:27.

been diverted into too man other causes. Some of the left, some of

:40:27.:40:30.

the right. Already the unity that marks the beginning of the protests

:40:30.:40:35.

is beginning to breakdown. And perhaps that's inevitable in a

:40:35.:40:42.

society where many think inequality is still increasing.

:40:42.:40:46.

We have reached the end of the line, and Pedro is finished driving fored

:40:46.:40:50.

today. He has discovered ordinary people like him can be drivers of

:40:50.:40:55.

change. And he thinks Brazil needs a lot more of it. TRANSLATION:

:40:55.:40:59.

my opinion Brazil is becoming more unequal. The era of slavery is not

:40:59.:41:05.

over yet. The only difference is that now we are getting paid.

:41:05.:41:10.

That's it. Do you think that Brazil will ever be more equal?

:41:10.:41:16.

TRANSLATION: I do believe it, if we keep protesting on the streets, I

:41:16.:41:23.

believe that things will change. Politicians though are practised in

:41:23.:41:26.

promising change. Brazil's new protest movement will have

:41:26.:41:29.

difficulty retaining enough energy and enough social cohesion to hold

:41:29.:41:36.

them to account. Those marvellous people in our Government are going

:41:36.:41:40.

to spend loads more of our money digging holes and building roads

:41:40.:41:44.

and railways and generally doing for more the infrastructure of this

:41:44.:41:48.

country than anyone has done in a century. Also the propaganda

:41:48.:41:54.

machine we also pay for told us today. What a load of dishonest

:41:54.:42:01.

drivel said their opponents as they whittled down and alleged �100

:42:01.:42:05.

million of investment to something a lot less impressive and urgent.

:42:05.:42:11.

What have they promised? To build infrastruck stuer. People like

:42:11.:42:14.

infrastructure. People don't just like it because they can get on a

:42:14.:42:20.

train or a motorway, but they feel good when they live in a country

:42:20.:42:25.

where there is the best in the world. You only have to get on a

:42:25.:42:29.

400km train in China to understand how good that feels. The Government

:42:29.:42:33.

spent last the last three years slashing spending on infrastructure,

:42:33.:42:37.

its plans are not to particularly raise spending on infrastructure

:42:37.:42:40.

for the rest of the parliament. What it did was pull together the

:42:40.:42:45.

money it had already pledged to spend on infrastructure on the next

:42:45.:42:50.

parliament, and put projects to that money. About �100 billion of

:42:50.:42:54.

it, they decided to name them and specify them or do feasiblilty

:42:54.:43:00.

studies, this is what provoked the outbreak of high perbowl lay in the

:43:00.:43:10.
:43:10.:43:12.

Commons today. -- h yperbole. I can announce the biggest housing

:43:12.:43:18.

programme in manyies, the largest rail plans since Victorian times.

:43:18.:43:22.

The greatest investment in roads since the 1970s. Fast on-line

:43:22.:43:27.

access for the whole country. this what we used to call "money"?

:43:27.:43:30.

It is real money. The important thing is if you say we are

:43:30.:43:34.

definitely going to do this and not this, what you then do and what

:43:34.:43:37.

they are trying to do is create certainty for private investors so

:43:37.:43:41.

they can look at the UK. A lot will be wrapped up and sold to

:43:42.:43:46.

inspection markets and protesters. We can say we think it has a future

:43:46.:43:49.

in roads and investment. Often in economics we are talking about

:43:49.:43:53.

facts and figures and graphs and charts. Actually it is quite a nice

:43:53.:43:57.

thing to be talking about roads and railways, and flood defences.

:43:57.:44:03.

Because we can feel these a touch them. This is HS2, already �9

:44:03.:44:08.

million more than we expected it to cost. It will allow people to

:44:08.:44:12.

comout between the cities on the map, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham,

:44:12.:44:18.

London, rather than long run one- day journeys. Dependant on the cost

:44:18.:44:22.

of the tickets. Yes. There is CrossRail, we have already got one

:44:22.:44:26.

going across London, east to west, we have this one, this has been

:44:26.:44:29.

given the nod, there is a feasiblilty study for it, so all

:44:29.:44:33.

the tourists who can't afford the hotel room who live in campsites on

:44:33.:44:37.

the edge of London will be able in the future to get on a train into

:44:37.:44:41.

central London and work out where to get on a pavement. We would have

:44:41.:44:46.

had a map of the motorways but it was too complicated. But there is a

:44:46.:44:51.

huge road upgrading thing. By 2040 if we don't do this the whole

:44:51.:45:01.
:45:01.:45:03.

network will grind to a halt. 2040. The A14, the M4 will be

:45:03.:45:09.

upgraded. Most motorway junctions will be upgrade the. Get ready for

:45:09.:45:14.

a lifetime of traffic cones. The A1 north to new cast. There a stort of

:45:14.:45:20.

stay in the UK appeal to the Scots that we build -- a sort of stay in

:45:20.:45:25.

the UK appeal to the Scots if we build a road to them. The good

:45:25.:45:31.

thing is the economics of it, if you decide not to spend on

:45:31.:45:34.

departmental or spending and welfare, you can make the case that

:45:34.:45:39.

spending it in a clear demonstrable and predictable way on all this.

:45:39.:45:44.

Plus the flood defences and housing. Actually creates jobs. That's why

:45:44.:45:48.

they have done it. Thank you very much indeed. Some of tomorrow

:45:48.:45:53.

morning's front pages now, the Times goes with that story we were

:45:53.:46:03.
:46:03.:46:25.

dealing with earlier about the That's it. George Osborne has spent

:46:25.:46:29.

the day trying to justify a photograph showing him preparing

:46:29.:46:36.

his cuts to welfare while eating a rather putocratic-lookingburger,

:46:36.:46:46.
:46:46.:47:08.

don't worry George, it is an easy Hello there, good evening, quite a

:47:08.:47:13.

mixture of weather to come of the we will start on a warm and humid

:47:13.:47:17.

note. Two areas of rain, the first one heading eastwards and

:47:17.:47:21.

brightening up for a while. Another band of rain sinking southwards

:47:21.:47:23.

across Scotland and Northern Ireland. If we do get sunshine in

:47:23.:47:29.

Northern Ireland it will be late in the day. Some drizzley rain.

:47:29.:47:32.

Developing more and more in Scotland. A fresher feel in the

:47:32.:47:40.

afternoon after the rain. The rainband sweeps southwards into

:47:40.:47:43.

northern England, depressing the temperatures here. For a while the

:47:43.:47:46.

rain could be heavy. This is the rain affecting Wimbledon earlier on

:47:46.:47:51.

in the day's play. That pushes away and brightens up eventually. We get

:47:51.:47:56.

sunshine. Humid air coming across the south and Wales, if the

:47:56.:48:01.

sunshine comes out temperatures could get as good as 22 or 23.

:48:01.:48:11.
:48:11.:48:21.

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