02/07/2013 Newsnight


02/07/2013

With Jeremy Paxman. The latest news from Egypt, the Mandela family fall out with each other, Wales changes the rules on organ donation and a look at state boarding schools.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 02/07/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The clock is ticking in Cairo, the protests are unabated and the

:00:14.:00:20.

military's deadline approaches. As the unelected Egyptian military

:00:20.:00:25.

glitters in the affection of protestors, while the

:00:25.:00:30.

democratically chosen presidency seems paralysed what is the will of

:00:30.:00:35.

the people? What does the rest of the Middle East make of it all?

:00:35.:00:45.
:00:45.:00:52.

Well now, let's start in Egypt, the Obama administration is telling

:00:52.:00:56.

President Morsi to respect the wishes of the people, but there is

:00:56.:01:02.

no sign of bridges being built and the Egyptian army deadline will

:01:02.:01:06.

have expired before this time tomorrow night. If there is no sign

:01:06.:01:11.

of settlement between the two sides the state news agency claim tonight

:01:11.:01:16.

that the army plans to suspend the constitution, dissolve the

:01:16.:01:20.

legislature and impose a caretaker Government. The Muslim Brotherhood

:01:20.:01:26.

figures are talking of a coup. Let's go first tonight to Jeremy

:01:26.:01:33.

Bowen who is in Cairo. Now Jeremy, there is talk tonight of talks

:01:33.:01:36.

between President Morsi and the head of the army, have you heard

:01:36.:01:41.

anything about that? Yeah, there have been reports that these talks

:01:41.:01:45.

are going on throughout the day. It is clear there have been

:01:45.:01:50.

negotiations happening. There have been some clues coming out as to

:01:50.:01:53.

President Morsi's attitude. He put out some announcements on Twitter

:01:53.:01:59.

in the last hour or so in which he called upon the military to

:01:59.:02:03.

withdrew its ultimatum and he said that they would not be dictated to

:02:04.:02:07.

by internal or external forces. And in the last few minutes there has

:02:07.:02:13.

been a flash that says he's preparing to address the nation. My

:02:13.:02:18.

guess is that in that speech there will be more defiance, there were

:02:18.:02:22.

very big demonstrations, not just in Cairo, but other parts of the

:02:22.:02:26.

country as well, by the Muslim Brotherhood today. A real show of

:02:26.:02:30.

strength. I have to say things on the streets are deteriorating.

:02:30.:02:35.

There are quite a few reports of clashes going on in Cairo and other

:02:35.:02:39.

places. At a rally I was at earlier outside Cairo University, since I

:02:39.:02:42.

left there are reports that four or five people have been killed there

:02:42.:02:47.

in clashes which are still going on between the two sides. This is a

:02:47.:02:50.

really dangerous and urgent situation now. I know this is a

:02:50.:02:53.

very difficult question to answer, but does it feel as if the

:02:53.:03:01.

Government is on the edge of collapse? Well, if you look at

:03:01.:03:04.

what's happening around, politically, around President Morsi,

:03:04.:03:09.

he has lost through resignations at least six ministers and there are

:03:09.:03:12.

rumours and reports that more of those could be going before the

:03:12.:03:19.

army deadline comes in tomorrow. He's even lost two or three of his

:03:19.:03:26.

most important spokesmen. So, you know, that's a sign. But, on the

:03:26.:03:29.

streets, if you think about the Muslim Brotherhood in Government

:03:29.:03:33.

quite frankly at times they have been not just inexperienced but

:03:33.:03:36.

pretty incompetent, but they have been going since 1928 working

:03:36.:03:40.

towards the power they have got now, they will not give it up lightly.

:03:40.:03:44.

On the streets they are tenacious and well organised as a group. They

:03:44.:03:49.

are able to put people out on the streets. So while he seems to be

:03:49.:03:53.

losing support in his own cabinet, actually on the streets he has a

:03:53.:03:56.

lot of true believers behind him. That is the Muslim Brotherhood's

:03:56.:04:00.

real strength and that is something that he's trying to plaijer at the

:04:00.:04:07.

moment and show to the army as well, they can't dismiss them lightly.

:04:07.:04:14.

sounds a very dangerous situation? It is feeling like a collision

:04:14.:04:17.

course at the moment. Feelings are running high. Pressure has been

:04:17.:04:21.

building up in call kinds of directions in this country since

:04:21.:04:27.

the fall of President Mubarak. There has been economic collapse,

:04:28.:04:32.

political chaos, repeated clashes, repeated mass demonstrations. And

:04:32.:04:36.

now down below me there are tens of thousands of people demonstrating

:04:36.:04:41.

yet again and the streets around the square are full as well, that

:04:41.:04:44.

they want Morsi out. They are determined, they say, everyone I

:04:44.:04:48.

have spoken to says it, to stay there until he goes, and there are

:04:48.:04:52.

early elections. On the other hand there is Morsi saying, do not

:04:52.:04:56.

trifle with us, we're the Muslim Brotherhood, we don't want violence,

:04:56.:05:01.

but we don't want ultimatums either. There is a massive gulf between the

:05:01.:05:06.

two sides, here is the army saying they will step in. I don't see any

:05:06.:05:10.

circumstances in which the army are going to withdraw their ultimatum.

:05:10.:05:19.

So it will be a tense 24-hours and a dangerous 24-hours too I think.

:05:19.:05:21.

Now Egypt may have a collapsing state and faltering economy, but

:05:21.:05:26.

there are no shortage of other countries with a keen interest in

:05:27.:05:34.

its future. Our diplomatic editor, reports.

:05:34.:05:39.

The military ultimatum has stoked Cairo's cauldron of protest rather

:05:39.:05:44.

than quietening it. After one year in power President Mohamed Morsi's

:05:44.:05:48.

Government is tottering. His opponents sense they may soon be

:05:48.:05:57.

able to deliver the knock-out blow. The first step towards finding a

:05:57.:06:02.

solution should be the resignation of Mohamed Morsi as President,

:06:02.:06:09.

bowing to overwhelming desire of the majority of Egyptians. It is

:06:09.:06:13.

the National Salvation Front's belief that Egypt should go through

:06:13.:06:19.

a transitional period during which the constitution will be reviewed,

:06:19.:06:24.

presidential elections held and the democratisation process put on the

:06:24.:06:34.
:06:34.:06:34.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 264 seconds

:06:34.:10:58.

These forces are on a collision course.

:10:58.:11:01.

Just in the last few minutes President Morsi has said he won't

:11:01.:11:06.

step down, he is the democratically elected President. A few moments

:11:06.:11:14.

ago I spoke to Chris Hadfield of the Muslim Brotherhood in -- I

:11:15.:11:18.

spoke to a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Is President Morsi

:11:18.:11:23.

prepared to make any concessions to the protestors? I think the

:11:23.:11:26.

President is prepared to do all necessary to pass this crisis. The

:11:26.:11:29.

question is not what type of concessions to make, the question

:11:29.:11:34.

is how to make these concessions. There are one or two ways to do

:11:34.:11:37.

that, either representatives of the opposition appear on the

:11:37.:11:40.

presidential dialogue table, or at least they invite the President to

:11:40.:11:44.

a dialogue table. He announced that last week. Or we go through a

:11:44.:11:47.

parliamentary elections and then, according to the numbers that have

:11:47.:11:51.

showed up on the streets, think they have a good chance of winning

:11:51.:11:54.

the elections, changing the constitution, even impeaching the

:11:54.:11:57.

President if they so wish. It has to be through democratic means and

:11:57.:12:06.

not under a military coup. Do you think that there can be dialogue

:12:06.:12:13.

before the military deadline expires tomorrow? I don't think the

:12:13.:12:18.

military deadline means that much more us. I think at the end of the

:12:18.:12:21.

day Egyptians have taken a decision to go through this transition

:12:21.:12:26.

through democratic means, democracy as a system is the pinnacle of how

:12:26.:12:30.

human beings solve their differences in a political

:12:30.:12:32.

governance platform. There is no better system or alternative to

:12:32.:12:37.

that system. Unless we accept that we can plunge Egypt into another

:12:37.:12:41.

cycle of military dictatorship that we will not come out of for another

:12:41.:12:45.

60 years. Egyptians broke that in the January 25th revolution, we are

:12:45.:12:49.

under no circumstances willing to go through that again. Supposing

:12:49.:12:52.

the military decide that you have not met their deadline and

:12:52.:12:58.

therefore to save the country they must do something. That would be up

:12:58.:13:04.

to them. They can either stick with their role, to protect the

:13:04.:13:07.

legitimacy of the state and the sovereign leader of the state and

:13:07.:13:11.

work within his leadership grounds, he's the Commander-in-Chief of the

:13:11.:13:15.

Armed Forces, if they do not the people of Egypt have stood once

:13:15.:13:18.

before inside the Jan 25th revolution to anyone attempting to

:13:18.:13:22.

withdraw their will and their right to choose their leaders from then

:13:22.:13:27.

as before. Has the President spoken to the

:13:27.:13:32.

head of the army? Yes I believe they have spoken today and

:13:32.:13:35.

yesterday. They have actually published some photos of them

:13:35.:13:38.

meeting together, but I'm not aware of the context of the discussions.

:13:39.:13:44.

Are you confident that President Morsi will still be in the

:13:44.:13:48.

Presidential Palace tomorrow night? I think the idea of being in the

:13:48.:13:52.

Presidential Palace to become a President is quite absurd. The

:13:52.:13:56.

legitimacy does not come from the building but from the grass roots

:13:56.:14:00.

support and from the ballot box. This President has voted in by 51%

:14:00.:14:06.

of the population. You don't stop a presidency mid-term because the

:14:06.:14:09.

President's favouritism dropped. I don't think any democracies in

:14:09.:14:12.

Europe can risk changing the Governments or Presidents for bad

:14:12.:14:15.

performance of their Government. Half the European countries have

:14:15.:14:20.

already had economic problems on their hands. What have the

:14:20.:14:27.

Americans asked President Morsi to do? I'm not aware except of the

:14:27.:14:31.

published at the same time both of the ambassador here and President

:14:31.:14:34.

Obama. Both statements indicate they are not taking part in

:14:34.:14:38.

political strive, but backing the - - strive, but backing the

:14:38.:14:41.

democratic process. That is a smart choice, this is how we commit

:14:41.:14:45.

ourselves to creating a sustainable democracy in Egypt. It is in its

:14:45.:14:49.

first year, in its infancy, it needs to be protected through that

:14:49.:14:54.

process. It is quite clear the state is ungovernable now? Sorry?

:14:54.:14:58.

It is suffering from many issues, this is 60 years of military

:14:58.:15:01.

dictatorship, 30 years of corruption. When we pud our

:15:01.:15:04.

presidential programme in place, when we -- put our presidential

:15:04.:15:07.

programme in place and promoted President Morsi as our candidate,

:15:07.:15:11.

his first phase of programme of reform was four-to-five years, the

:15:11.:15:14.

firefighting stage, where we have to deal with all the her particular

:15:14.:15:19.

of the NDP and corrupt Mubarak regime, we are still going through

:15:19.:15:22.

that. Thank you very much for sparing the

:15:22.:15:26.

time to talk to us in rather difficult circumstances thank you.

:15:26.:15:31.

Thank you. So what will the Obama

:15:31.:15:36.

administration do now? In Washington is the former Assistant

:15:36.:15:41.

Secretary of State PJ Crowley, do you think President Obama knows

:15:41.:15:47.

what he wants out of this crisis? know what he wants, which is to see

:15:47.:15:51.

democracy develop and advance, but ultimately the key decisions we

:15:51.:15:55.

made inside Egypt and not from outside Egypt. He wants President

:15:55.:16:00.

Morsi to stay? I think he want whatever is going to happen to move

:16:00.:16:06.

Egypt forward and deep in democracy not to take it off the democratic

:16:06.:16:12.

rails, if you will. Obviously there are some profound questions here.

:16:12.:16:15.

This situation, as you hint, is unsustainable. Now how does it

:16:15.:16:22.

change, how does it end. Will Morsi reach beyond the Muslim Brotherhood

:16:22.:16:27.

and have a meaningful dialogue with the opposition? Indications are not

:16:27.:16:31.

necessarily. The opposition, over the last year or two, has been

:16:31.:16:34.

relatively ineffective, has not necessarily been able to translate

:16:34.:16:39.

the energy that we see in the dramatic pictures in Egypt, into

:16:39.:16:44.

real political influence. A is whether the military ultimatum is

:16:44.:16:48.

firm or flexible. The real dilemma is that whatever these actors may

:16:48.:16:52.

or may not do in the coming hours or days, is any of that going to be

:16:52.:16:58.

acceptable to the people in the streets? But he's a democratically

:16:58.:17:03.

elected President? He is. And that's a dilemma because he's right

:17:03.:17:07.

now the only democratic pillar that exists, whether he's governing

:17:07.:17:10.

effectively or ineffectively is a separate discussion. One of the

:17:10.:17:15.

dilemmas is that you don't have a seated legitimate parliament, the

:17:15.:17:21.

constitutional court has prevented both houses from being seeded and

:17:21.:17:27.

the votes respected. There is an interim Upper House in place. But

:17:27.:17:31.

the constitutional court has not necessarily allowed the development

:17:31.:17:37.

of multiple institutions of political life. So that's a dilemma,

:17:37.:17:41.

all of the things that we are talking about take time and

:17:41.:17:44.

obviously the people in the streets are demanding just one thing, Morsi

:17:44.:17:48.

has to go. You are plugged in enough to have a

:17:48.:17:53.

guess, a good guess at the answer to this question, which is should

:17:53.:17:58.

the Egyptian army decide to intervene tomorrow that the current

:17:58.:18:01.

situation is so unstable they have to intervene, they have perhaps to

:18:01.:18:06.

put President Morsi, if not to depose him, to put him to one side

:18:06.:18:11.

temporarily, would the United States support that? It is a real

:18:11.:18:15.

difficult question. I think the United States has two levers, one

:18:15.:18:19.

is depending on what happens, and what the military role is, the

:18:19.:18:23.

United States has the option of declaring it a military coup, which

:18:23.:18:27.

would mean the suspension of billions of colours in military

:18:28.:18:33.

assistance. Depending on how it unfolds, how quickly there is a

:18:33.:18:40.

transitional Government put in place and firm pledges to early

:18:40.:18:46.

elections. The United States might forestall such a firm judgment to

:18:46.:18:51.

give Egypt time to chart a path back to democracy. The other lever

:18:51.:18:54.

the United States has with the international community, as your

:18:54.:18:57.

reporting suggested, Egypt is in desperate need of international

:18:57.:19:01.

assistance. Obviously the longer this goes on, the more difficult it

:19:01.:19:06.

is going to be for the World Bank, the IMF, other countries, to put

:19:06.:19:09.

money into Egypt and so that would suggest to the political actors

:19:10.:19:13.

here, you don't have a lot of options, you have to find a way to

:19:13.:19:17.

solve this, meet the needs of the people. Otherwise your economy is

:19:17.:19:24.

going to collapse. PJCrowley thank you for sparing the time to talk to

:19:24.:19:30.

Talk about undignified, as the most famous human rights hero lies in

:19:30.:19:35.

hospital, his family war over where he will be buried. The vast pack of

:19:35.:19:40.

what some of his closest call "jackels" has fallen on a family

:19:40.:19:45.

dispute of Gothic dimensions, it involves burial, disinternment,

:19:45.:19:53.

reburial, tribal custom, reputation and money. Now the police. In to

:19:53.:19:57.

court in haste today, lawyers for both sides in a feud that could

:19:57.:20:01.

hardly be a greater contrast to what President Obama called this

:20:01.:20:05.

weekend when he was in South Africa "the current outpouring of love for

:20:05.:20:14.

Nelson Mandela". The urgency for resolving an embarrassing family

:20:14.:20:22.

dispute over Mandela's graves, Nelson Mandela's own illness. The

:20:22.:20:25.

man who became arguably the most famous and revered statesman of our

:20:25.:20:29.

age was brought up here in the sweeping landscape of the Eastern

:20:29.:20:33.

Cape. This is Kunu, the village that welcomed him home until he had

:20:33.:20:38.

to be flown up to hospital in Pretoria last year. He has not been

:20:38.:20:44.

back. But has indicated when he dies he wants to be buried here.

:20:44.:20:52.

Other Madela have this -- Madelas have this as their resting place.

:20:52.:20:58.

But in 2011 Nelson Mandela's grandson and oldest heir, Mandla is

:20:58.:21:02.

thought to have taken the remains of two of Nelson Mandela's sons and

:21:02.:21:08.

one daughter from Kuno to the nearby village of Mvezo without the

:21:08.:21:13.

family's consent. Mandla Mandela holds the traditional chiefdom of

:21:13.:21:20.

Mvezo, it was Nelson Mandela's birth place, and Mandla is creating

:21:20.:21:24.

a centre. But the acrimony within the family over his actions that

:21:24.:21:28.

has led to this civil ways in the court. The respondant failing to

:21:28.:21:34.

return the remains. First 16 family members won an order that the

:21:34.:21:38.

remains should be returned to Kunu, now Mandla Mandela is fighting back.

:21:38.:21:46.

But the deadline for him to exhume the remains and rebury them in Kunu

:21:46.:21:50.

is tomorrow afternoon. The court case here over the remains of the

:21:50.:21:55.

three late children of Nelson Mandela is symptomatic of deeper,

:21:55.:21:58.

long-running divisions in the former President's family. In the

:21:58.:22:04.

eyes of the ANC in and traditional region here, the feud something is

:22:04.:22:09.

all the more distasteful and critical as he's ill. There is a

:22:09.:22:12.

global spotlight on South Africa and the Madela. Some elders say

:22:12.:22:17.

while the family is at war the spirit of Nelson Mandela cannot be

:22:17.:22:26.

at rest. It was totally wrong for Mandla Mandela to remove bones from

:22:26.:22:30.

Kunu to Mvezo. According to our culture and tradition, you cannot

:22:30.:22:36.

just take a decision. And tonight a further problem for Mandla Mandela.

:22:36.:22:39.

The police are investigating a complaint against him by a family

:22:39.:22:44.

member of the illegal tampering of graves.

:22:44.:22:50.

The case that has opened is tamperering with a grave against

:22:50.:22:58.

Mandla. After the document was opened we have started with

:22:58.:23:01.

investigation, but the docket will be send to the senior public

:23:01.:23:09.

prosecutor for a decision. Across South Africa there are have been

:23:09.:23:15.

prayers for Nelson Mandela. The nation seems, at the moment, to be

:23:15.:23:20.

moving to the haunting harmonies of its evocative music.

:23:20.:23:25.

Many will no doubt be praying too for an end to the rifts in South

:23:25.:23:33.

Africa's most famous family. In the studio is David James Smith,

:23:33.:23:40.

who wrote the book Young Madela. He has interviewed many of Mr Madela's

:23:40.:23:46.

relatives, we have Belinda Moses, a South African reporter in the

:23:46.:23:50.

middle of the media circus there. Is this stress and imminent

:23:50.:23:55.

bereavement bringing out the worst in the family or what? I think it

:23:55.:23:59.

is a disaster waiting to happen. It would be niave to pretend for

:23:59.:24:03.

anyone that they didn't know it was coming. Just to take the example of

:24:03.:24:08.

the graves being removed. Mandla removed them with quite a lot of

:24:08.:24:13.

publicity two years ago in May 2011. The family has had plenty of time

:24:13.:24:16.

to address the problem. I think the difficulty is that the family

:24:16.:24:20.

problems are so deep-rooted that no-one really knows what to, how to

:24:21.:24:29.

deal with them or what to do about them. Grassa Michelle has made some

:24:29.:24:32.

attempt to resolve difficulties within the families: I'm aware of

:24:32.:24:38.

meetings that have ended in disarray and she hasn't been

:24:38.:24:41.

success of. She's the third wife trying to patch up relations

:24:41.:24:46.

between the first and second wife's offspring. You have a first family,

:24:46.:24:51.

Madela's wife, Evelyn, and a second family which was winny and her two

:24:51.:24:56.

daughters. Bell lind --Winnie and her two daughters. How charged an

:24:57.:25:01.

issue is that out there? Of course for South Africans this is a pretty

:25:01.:25:05.

ugly side show from what is a very sensitive to imin South Africa,

:25:05.:25:09.

knowing that Nelson Mandela has been -- time in South African

:25:09.:25:13.

knowing that Nelson Mandela has been gravely ill over the last few

:25:13.:25:16.

days, South Africans are anxious to hear about his health condition,

:25:16.:25:19.

and the family feud on the sidelines is something that is

:25:19.:25:22.

pretty regretable as you mentioned and something that shouldn't be

:25:23.:25:27.

happening at this time. This is a story that is two years old. The

:25:27.:25:31.

timing of course is very questionable. And I think different

:25:31.:25:36.

families members -- family members have come out saying different

:25:36.:25:41.

things. All in all South Africans are pretty upset that this is

:25:41.:25:45.

happening when they are so worried about Nelson Mandela and whether he

:25:45.:25:48.

will be discharged from hospital any time soon. How much do you

:25:48.:25:52.

think the presence of this enormous international media has aggravated

:25:52.:25:57.

things? I can tell you that I have covered the story from day one, and

:25:57.:26:03.

we saw a massive increase of the types of media that came camped out

:26:03.:26:07.

outside the hospital. It has caused a bit of tension, not only among

:26:07.:26:11.

South Africans that have been in the vicinity of the hospital, but

:26:11.:26:14.

just South Africans in general who have essentially been praying for

:26:14.:26:18.

Nelson Mandela for the past 20-odd days. We have seen actual scrambles

:26:18.:26:21.

between the media and the police. We have seen members of the public

:26:21.:26:26.

that have taken the media to task on just how close they seem to be

:26:26.:26:29.

getting to the entrance of the hospital, and we have generally

:26:29.:26:36.

seen a lot of people write into local pub daigss -- publications

:26:36.:26:41.

and call into local radio stations and say the family does indeed need

:26:41.:26:47.

the privacy and to visit their grandfather in peace, and have the

:26:47.:26:50.

space they need so desperately at this time. Even though everybody

:26:51.:26:54.

does see Nelson Mandela as a family member, they too want to have the

:26:54.:26:59.

space to make sure that you know they are not overcompensating for

:26:59.:27:03.

any type of closeness from the media and the media isn't barging

:27:03.:27:10.

in where they aren't supposed to be. What this does shed a light upon,

:27:10.:27:16.

undignified though the family row may be, that Nelson Mandela as well

:27:16.:27:21.

as a an international icon is a fallible human being? He was a

:27:21.:27:25.

father and a husband. Several times? Yes. And not necessarily

:27:25.:27:33.

always very good at those roles. While the world is considering what

:27:33.:27:37.

Nelson Mandela's legacy is, part of that legacy is the difficulties

:27:37.:27:41.

within his family. Many of his family have felt in the past some

:27:41.:27:45.

resentment towards him because of the difficulties. Mandla, who is

:27:45.:27:49.

alleged to have perpetrated this removal of the bodies, what's the

:27:49.:27:58.

point of that? The point is that he feels this is part of Madela's

:27:58.:28:04.

heritage, this place Mvezo. So Mandla's own father was the head

:28:04.:28:08.

man in that village 100 years ago. I was deposed and part of the

:28:08.:28:13.

family myth was he was sent backing by the colonial magistrates, so

:28:13.:28:19.

Madela oversaw Mandla's installation as the chief of the

:28:19.:28:25.

village. So he has the indorsment of Nelson Mandela himself.

:28:25.:28:28.

Enforcement of Nelson Mandela himself. How much of a feeling do

:28:28.:28:31.

you get that this is part of the Madela's industry? There is always

:28:31.:28:36.

issues of money over Madela. We have seen people over the past few

:28:36.:28:39.

years people fighting over paintings of Madela, over what

:28:39.:28:44.

should be his legacy in terms of the heritage sites and museums that

:28:44.:28:47.

will exist long after he has left this world. Of course with the

:28:47.:28:51.

family it has been pretty clear that there are serious division

:28:51.:28:55.

amongst them. Especially as to who get to carry on this legacy of

:28:55.:28:58.

Nelson Mandela. We know that the Nelson Mandela Foundation has done

:28:58.:29:04.

a lot of work to help children and all around the country and push

:29:04.:29:14.
:29:14.:29:16.

this issue of education that Nelson Mandela fought for so many years.

:29:16.:29:21.

But there is the issue of money and who gets the rights to the name,

:29:21.:29:25.

"Nelson Mandela". Wales is to become the first part of the UK to

:29:25.:29:29.

assume that if you die the state will have the right to take out

:29:29.:29:33.

your heart or liver or other vital organs to use them to help someone

:29:33.:29:37.

else. It is a change in the law that's been longed for by the huge

:29:38.:29:42.

number of people across the kingdom, waiting for a transplant that could

:29:42.:29:49.

transform their lives and which hitherto has depended upon possible

:29:49.:29:53.

donors saying because they have no use to them somebody else might

:29:53.:29:57.

benefit. The Welsh Assembly voted an hour ago for a law in Wales that

:29:57.:30:02.

means you have to opt-out of being a donor, instead of opting-in.

:30:02.:30:06.

It was the transplantation of the human heart, unpoetic pump though

:30:06.:30:10.

it may be, which captured the imagination of the world. And

:30:10.:30:15.

compelled us all to think about the rights and wrongs of the new

:30:15.:30:21.

techniques. In the late 1960s the world was reeling from from the

:30:21.:30:25.

first-ever heart transplant in 1967. To this day we are still grappling

:30:25.:30:30.

with the profound issues of life and death raised by organ donation.

:30:30.:30:34.

That does bring tonight's business to a close, thank you very much.

:30:34.:30:38.

The Welsh vote late tonight makes it the only country in the UK with

:30:38.:30:42.

a system that presumes consent, unless otherwise stated. Many still

:30:42.:30:47.

object. Among them religious groups. They call it deemed consent, it is

:30:47.:30:51.

no kind of consent at all it seems to me. It is rather the taking of

:30:51.:30:58.

organs rather than the gifting of organs. Matthew Fenton is a

:30:58.:31:01.

paediatric cardiologist, he welcomes the Welsh move. We need to

:31:01.:31:05.

come down one way or another in the UK about how we can solve the

:31:05.:31:09.

problem of organ donation. We are not as good as other countries.

:31:09.:31:12.

We're somewhere near the bottom third of donations per million of

:31:12.:31:16.

the population, we need to improve that. It is down to the public to

:31:16.:31:20.

buy into being a country that is in favour of organ donation or not.

:31:20.:31:24.

There has been a steady rise in the number of registered donors in the

:31:24.:31:29.

UK, which now stands at almost 20 million. With just over 3,000

:31:29.:31:35.

transplants from donors who have died in 2012 to 2013. These include

:31:35.:31:39.

transplants of the lungs, heart and kidneys, all of which have

:31:39.:31:43.

increased in the past five years. However, the number of donations is

:31:43.:31:48.

still below what's needed, in March this year there were well over

:31:48.:31:51.

7,000 people on the transplant waiting list, a number that stayed

:31:51.:31:58.

about the same in those five years. With donor numbers going up, why

:31:58.:32:04.

are we still in such desperate need of more? One of the key findings

:32:04.:32:10.

from the confidential audit of deaths in intensive care units in

:32:10.:32:15.

1989/90 was that 30% of families refused consent for organ donations,

:32:15.:32:22.

so that a major barrier was relatives' refusal. Since that time,

:32:22.:32:29.

in the ensuing two decades the refusal rate has actually increased

:32:29.:32:34.

so that now we face a refusal rate of about 40%.

:32:34.:32:38.

Ministers in Northern Ireland plan to consult on public attitudes to

:32:38.:32:41.

organ donation and in Scotland ministers have said presumed

:32:41.:32:45.

consent is not completely off the agenda.

:32:45.:32:49.

In England there has been a 50% increase in the number of people

:32:49.:32:53.

donating organs after death in the past five years. Which means that

:32:53.:32:57.

NHS blood and transplant service have hit their targets. Though that

:32:57.:33:01.

is not enough, of course, and we understand that next week they will

:33:01.:33:05.

issue their strategy for the next five years to improve on that.

:33:05.:33:08.

Though there is little expectation of a radical change in direction,

:33:09.:33:14.

such as presumed consent. A recent NHS survey gained a

:33:14.:33:24.
:33:24.:33:41.

snapshot of how people view organ Some medics argue that the best way

:33:41.:33:45.

to enkoirage more donors is to make harder for all -- encourage more

:33:45.:33:52.

donors is to make it harder for us to opt out. Sitting and registering

:33:52.:33:55.

to be a donor is not something people do. It is a question of

:33:55.:33:57.

turning to your relatives or everybody having a time where they

:33:57.:34:02.

say we will talk about this and we are going to make sure you know

:34:02.:34:05.

what my wishes are if something happen. Nobody expects the worse to

:34:05.:34:10.

happen to them. The developing techniques of organ transplantation

:34:10.:34:13.

raise urgent issues which society must face. We have to make up our

:34:13.:34:18.

minds whether to encourage more transplants or not. Now, just as 50

:34:18.:34:23.

years ago, it seems we are reluctant to talk about the end of

:34:23.:34:29.

life, and its many dilemmas. With us is Dr Tony Calland chairman of

:34:29.:34:37.

the British Medical Association's Medical Ethics Committee, and the

:34:38.:34:43.

person who previously worked on the task force for organ donation and

:34:43.:34:47.

faith leaders. Is this change in Wales likely to improve the number

:34:47.:34:52.

of donors? I'm afraid the evidence is very mixed. We should not

:34:52.:34:56.

dismiss the huge achievement in the past five years. 50% increase in

:34:56.:35:01.

donors is remarkable. That has been achieved by improving donor

:35:01.:35:07.

recognition in hospitals and delivering training. When you look

:35:07.:35:10.

at other countries who have introduced opting out, they have

:35:10.:35:15.

not seen a reduction in refusal rates, we have to be careful.

:35:15.:35:20.

is a lot of double negatives there, let me work this out. If other

:35:20.:35:25.

countries that have said you are presumed to be willing to give have

:35:25.:35:29.

seen people objecting to that, is that what you are saying? Some

:35:29.:35:34.

countries have. Where as in some countries the refusal rate has

:35:34.:35:38.

reduced, so the evidence is mixed. What is really clear is public

:35:38.:35:42.

education does have an effect, and I think it is welcome that Wales

:35:42.:35:47.

are going to invest in a public education scheme when they

:35:47.:35:52.

introduce this legislation. Do you have an site from an ethical point

:35:52.:35:56.

of view about the notion that the state some how owns your body?

:35:56.:36:01.

think the first thing to say is the state will not own your body. I

:36:01.:36:07.

don't have a problem with the ethics of it, because this is about

:36:07.:36:11.

autonomy, this is about carrying out the wishes of an individual

:36:11.:36:16.

after they have died. And there is a safeguard that they can either go

:36:16.:36:21.

on the organ donor register, they can opt in or they can opt-out.

:36:21.:36:25.

There is a safeguard of having their relatives, who will be asked,

:36:25.:36:33.

if they know of any recent change in the view of the person who is

:36:33.:36:38.

deceased. If they know there is a reason why they should have not

:36:39.:36:43.

consented. But if the presumption is that you have opted in, in other

:36:43.:36:50.

words that the state may take organs from your dead bodyk can --

:36:50.:36:55.

body. Can the family say they don't want that? The legislation in Wales

:36:55.:37:01.

is actually permissive, it is not directive. So in the face...Can

:37:01.:37:06.

family stop it happening? In the face of a huge family objection,

:37:06.:37:10.

even though now. Who judges how huge?. It is a clinical judgment,

:37:10.:37:15.

it is a judgment done by the highly experience transplant team at the

:37:15.:37:19.

time. But that occurs in the current system in England at the

:37:19.:37:25.

moment. Obviously in the face of a deeply traumatised and very upset

:37:25.:37:31.

family who are seriously against it, nobody is going to go and take

:37:31.:37:35.

organs against their wishes under those circumstances. It was

:37:35.:37:42.

striking in that piece from Susan Watts is relatives objects even

:37:42.:37:51.

from those who opted to give their organ, the number of people

:37:51.:37:55.

refusing has risen, why is that? This is why we need the investment

:37:55.:37:58.

in public education. There hasn't been the investment previously and

:37:58.:38:02.

we have seen a constant refusal rate for the last five years of 40%.

:38:02.:38:08.

And more worryingly in non-white families that refusal rate is 70%

:38:08.:38:15.

and it is welcome that Wales are going to invest �8 million. Why do

:38:15.:38:21.

they feel more strongly about it? Because of pure lack of engagment

:38:21.:38:26.

with these communities on donation. Why are the organs of use to anyone

:38:26.:38:31.

else? All the research shows that people have common fears not ethnic

:38:31.:38:34.

or Asianly specific. They are around fear of death and what will

:38:34.:38:38.

happen to the body, mistrust of medical professions. We have to

:38:38.:38:43.

recognise that some communities don't enjoy equal access and equal

:38:43.:38:48.

kality of care. That does -- quality of care. That does manifest

:38:48.:38:52.

itself in organ dough iing that. It is important to equally engage with

:38:52.:38:57.

all the communities, via faith and community groups. What is the less

:38:57.:39:02.

I don't know we learn from the Welsh experience? The Welsh

:39:02.:39:08.

experience will hopefully give us information about whether this way

:39:08.:39:11.

of doing things increases the number of organs available. We have

:39:11.:39:14.

seen because of the increased infrastructure and staff, we have

:39:14.:39:21.

seen in an increase in donations both in England and Wales. But I

:39:21.:39:25.

think a move to the Welsh system now will sort of settle the

:39:25.:39:30.

argument, if you like, once and for all. It is a fairly controllable

:39:30.:39:34.

smallish population and a better sort of way of doing it than

:39:34.:39:37.

suddenly the whole UK with 60-odd million people involved. It is

:39:37.:39:40.

better with three million to see what difference it makes and

:39:40.:39:44.

hopefully it are. Thank you.

:39:44.:39:47.

British parents are notorious the world over for loving their

:39:47.:39:51.

children so much that if they can afford to do so they send them to

:39:51.:39:55.

live somewhere else as soon as possible. The boarding school

:39:55.:40:00.

system is however celebrated for achieving results, although at eye-

:40:00.:40:05.

watering cost, maybe �30,000 per year per child. There is a way of

:40:05.:40:09.

getting a boarding school place for a fraction of the cost. Not a young

:40:09.:40:13.

offenders institution! But one of the 38 state boarding schools. They

:40:13.:40:16.

have become rather fashionable and the Government wants to see more of

:40:16.:40:26.
:40:26.:40:32.

them. So can they be expanded? The afternoons at Winmar college are

:40:32.:40:34.

action-packed. It is the largest state boarding school in the

:40:34.:40:42.

country. At the school barbecue children

:40:42.:40:47.

told us they are having too much fun to get home sick. Do you not

:40:48.:40:52.

miss your family? Not really. Sometimes, I did at the start of

:40:52.:40:58.

the year, but I don't any more. What about your sister? I missed

:40:58.:41:02.

her when I first joined now I have realised how annoying she is.

:41:02.:41:07.

old is she? Three.How is she annoying? She irritates me and

:41:07.:41:11.

ruins my room and my guitar. There is nothing new about this

:41:11.:41:15.

Government's enthusiasm for state boarding schools, the last five

:41:15.:41:18.

education secretaries promised to expand them, yet there are still

:41:18.:41:22.

only 38 of them. If they really want to open them up to

:41:22.:41:26.

disadvantaged pupils they are going to need to work out who is going to

:41:26.:41:34.

pick up the �9,000 boarding fee. There are 5,000 state borders in

:41:34.:41:38.

total. 130 places are paid for by local Government, while charities

:41:38.:41:44.

pay for 100 pupils. So, fewer than 5% of state borders come from

:41:44.:41:53.

disadvantaged backgrounds. -- Boarders come from disadvantaged

:41:53.:42:00.

backgrounds. None of the this school's boarders are paid for a

:42:00.:42:04.

local authority, and four are supported by a charity. There isn't

:42:04.:42:08.

a straight forward way through the door for children who can't afford

:42:08.:42:13.

�9,500. That is not for want of our trying. The issue is, is there a

:42:13.:42:16.

Government bold enough and brave enough to say not only that we are

:42:16.:42:21.

going to rule the ends to this but the means also. We really mean it

:42:21.:42:24.

this time, this Secretary of State unlike the previous four I have

:42:24.:42:28.

known in my career will have the bottle to do it. You sound a bit

:42:28.:42:32.

fed up? I may give that impression. This building is fantastic. Do you

:42:32.:42:42.
:42:42.:42:43.

like living here? Yeah.Lauren calls the boarding house at

:42:43.:42:47.

Harrefield academy home. What do you like most of being here? I love

:42:47.:42:50.

being part of a family and the togetherness, and there is so many

:42:50.:42:55.

different people here. Lauren found studying at home

:42:55.:43:00.

difficult. She was brought up by a single mother who works nights as a

:43:00.:43:04.

nurse. Lauren wanted to board, so the school found a benefactor to

:43:04.:43:12.

pay her fees. It did lift a lot of pressure. I became more active and

:43:12.:43:15.

confident in my work. If I struggled with something I didn't

:43:15.:43:20.

have to keep it in, because I didn't want to force it upon my mum

:43:20.:43:24.

when she came back from work because she was tired. So I would

:43:24.:43:28.

let someone else know, I would tell the house parent, you would go into

:43:28.:43:33.

school and talk to my teacher. you think being here has given you

:43:33.:43:40.

your childhood back? Yeah. I think so. If Lauren needs support she can

:43:40.:43:44.

turn to one of the school's called house parents. I just wanted to

:43:44.:43:51.

check up on you today. The academy prides itself on its pastoral care.

:43:51.:43:56.

It would like to give more places to vulnerable children, including

:43:56.:44:03.

those in care. We have got only one young person funded by a local

:44:03.:44:06.

authority, and we think that's interesting or, we are disappointed

:44:06.:44:11.

by that. Because we think it could be so easy to prevent a young

:44:11.:44:14.

person's life going in the wrong direction, just by allowing them to

:44:14.:44:19.

board with us. I think someone at some time needs to sit back and do

:44:19.:44:23.

a cost analysis to see how much money is going into the system

:44:23.:44:26.

either through social services or to provide emergency care and if we

:44:26.:44:30.

could find the capacity to turn that money into places from the

:44:30.:44:36.

start, then you know it seems like a no-brainer to me really.

:44:36.:44:41.

According to the education charity Buttle UK, boarding helps

:44:41.:44:51.
:44:51.:45:04.

They are doing better pupils on free school meals.? -- in Royal

:45:04.:45:09.

Berkshire they are preparing found for a new state boarding school.00

:45:09.:45:14.

families have put their children down for a place, even the unborn

:45:14.:45:17.

ones. The reason for the stampede, the school is being supported by

:45:17.:45:22.

nearby Eton. That is helping to write the

:45:22.:45:27.

curriculum and providing access to its playing field. So, the Eton

:45:27.:45:32.

ethos without the Princely price tag. But why should only families

:45:32.:45:41.

in Berkshire benefit? Why not open this school up in a deprived area.

:45:41.:45:45.

Why not tap into an area that never thought Eton could be within its

:45:45.:45:50.

reach? There are any dangers in focusing any school on any

:45:50.:45:53.

demographic or type of background. The great joy of boarding, the

:45:53.:45:56.

strength, is when you have a mixture of different types of

:45:56.:45:59.

people from different backgrounds who perceive the world in different

:45:59.:46:07.

ways. I would love to see a network of schools, many Holyports that

:46:07.:46:12.

would allow students and families to access boarding in their region.

:46:12.:46:17.

It would be good for them and the country too I believe. The founders

:46:17.:46:21.

have a vision for their new school. They want 20% of pupils to come

:46:21.:46:28.

from low income backgrounds. But, as the more established state

:46:28.:46:33.

boarding schools have discovered, achieving the mixed intake is hard.

:46:33.:46:36.

Is the frustration that we could have new schools opening up in the

:46:36.:46:41.

state boarding sector that really turn out to be cut-price Etons or

:46:41.:46:47.

we willingen tos? That is the worry -- or Wellingtons? That is the

:46:47.:46:51.

worry. People have to look at the profile of these young people. It

:46:51.:46:55.

is hard to get the right groups in, they have stood by a moral purpose

:46:55.:46:58.

and are determined to do it. But I think there needs to be a

:46:58.:47:02.

determined effort by all involved to make sure that those new

:47:02.:47:12.
:47:12.:47:14.

academies with boarding are used for the right student.

:47:14.:47:18.

All the schools we have spoken to admit that boarding doesn't suit

:47:18.:47:28.
:47:28.:47:32.

every child, but when it works the effect can be transformative.

:47:32.:47:37.

That's all we have time for tonight. That's all we have time for tonight.

:47:37.:47:47.
:47:47.:47:48.

Good night. Good evening, even though most of us will have seen

:47:48.:47:53.

rain by first light, one or two gardens will be disappointingly dry.

:47:53.:47:56.

That will be the last of the significant rain. Light rain or

:47:56.:47:59.

drizzle across southern and western areas, it will be a day where

:47:59.:48:03.

things turn dryer and brighter. With a bit more brightness breaking

:48:03.:48:06.

through the cloud in Northern Ireland and central and eastern

:48:06.:48:12.

Scotland in particular, after the cool, wet windy conditions, it will

:48:12.:48:15.

feel warmer. Even the low 20s across part of north-east England.

:48:15.:48:19.

A little more cloud to the west of the Pennines, here brighter sunny

:48:19.:48:25.

spells. It might take a good part of the day through East Anglia and

:48:25.:48:29.

the south-east to see those spells develop. It looks like even with

:48:29.:48:34.

drizzle in the morning, Wimbledon should be try in the afternoon.

:48:34.:48:38.

Cloud in the south west and Wales, a noticable breeze but dry through

:48:38.:48:41.

With Jeremy Paxman. The latest news from Egypt, the Mandela family fall out with each other, Wales changes the rules on organ donation and a look at state boarding schools.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS