03/07/2013 Newsnight


03/07/2013

With Jeremy Paxman. The latest from Egypt as the military attempt to oust President Morsi from power. Plus legal highs.


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first democratically elected Government in the biggest state in

:00:14.:00:18.

the Arab world has been shouldered aside by the army, yet the western

:00:18.:00:21.

Governments which so enthusiastically support democracy

:00:21.:00:29.

and so regularly condemn military coups remain almost mute.

:00:29.:00:33.

TRANSLATION: The constitution will be temporarily dissolved and the

:00:33.:00:35.

head of the constitutional court will manage state affairs while a

:00:35.:00:39.

new President is elected. declaration prompted great

:00:39.:00:45.

celebrations among those who wanted to bring down the President. But

:00:46.:00:51.

someer realise who see -- somber realisation from those who see him

:00:51.:00:55.

as the legitimate President. What sort of Middle East is going to

:00:55.:00:58.

emerge at the end of all of this. Is it wise for the west to promote

:00:59.:01:08.

democracy there. Also tonight, they are quite legal and quite fatal.

:01:08.:01:18.
:01:18.:01:19.

says one two methiopropamine. you know what that is?

:01:19.:01:29.
:01:29.:01:30.

Is the law to be outwitted by the called legal highs.

:01:30.:01:36.

That didn't last long, the Egyptian army have given the country's first

:01:36.:01:40.

democratically chosen President 48 hours to appease his enemies and

:01:40.:01:45.

when he didn't manage it, so for the second time the Arab Spring,

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which was supposed to usher in popular rule has left the army in

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charge of the biggest nation in the Arab world. No word on where the

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President himself is, in the meantime there will be a temporary

:01:57.:02:01.

Government, until more elections. First off, let's go to the centre

:02:01.:02:05.

of the process in Tahrir Square, Jeremy Bowen is there. Last night

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you talked about the danger of something perhaps akin to civil war,

:02:09.:02:17.

is that danger now passing. I'm not hearing you too well. Let me tell

:02:17.:02:23.

you about the atmosphere here. The decible level is quite

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extraordinary. That is because there are so many people here

:02:25.:02:30.

delighted about what they have achieved. It took them 18 days to

:02:30.:02:35.

come to this place and to oust Hosni Mubarak. It has taken three

:02:35.:02:39.

for President Morsi. And I think after Mubarak went there was a

:02:39.:02:46.

sense of ex shaux, not here and now -- exshaugs, not here and Where Are

:02:46.:02:52.

We Now. They are full of energy. Even though there are vast crowds

:02:52.:02:57.

on the street, Cairo has 20 million people, it is certain that the

:02:57.:03:02.

large amounts of people in the city tonight who are dismayed,

:03:02.:03:05.

supporters of Muslim Brotherhood, who feel their man was elected

:03:05.:03:09.

fairly and has been cheated. know the region very well, how is

:03:09.:03:16.

it likely to play in other countries around about? To start

:03:16.:03:21.

with, Egypt sees itself and is seen as one of the great, the great

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centre. Cairo is the great centre of the Arab world. The most populus

:03:26.:03:31.

Arab country by a very, by a about a quarter of Arabs are Egyptians.

:03:31.:03:37.

People take a lead from here. That is what happened in 2011 in the

:03:37.:03:40.

revolutions here. A of those revolutions started after what

:03:40.:03:43.

happened -- a lot of those revolutions started after what

:03:43.:03:46.

happened here in Cairo. The Muslim Brotherhood has been seen here and

:03:46.:03:51.

elsewhere as one of the big winners, maybe the biggest winner of the

:03:51.:03:54.

Arab uprisings, not least because it was very well organised. However

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it is not looking like that tonight here in Egypt.

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If their power long-term is broken that will have reprecussions around

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the region, it will change the political balance, the political

:04:10.:04:14.

equation in many other countries, right across North Africa and

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elsewhere. There is a question here too isn't there for the Egyptian

:04:19.:04:25.

military. Because American military aid is strictly dependant on arm

:04:25.:04:35.
:04:35.:04:41.

years they give assistance to, not staging coups. The Egyptian

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military is in a very delicate position. The Egyptian army I have

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heard is with the people and will not attack the people. That is

:04:48.:04:51.

something they won't end up doing. They have said if there is any

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violence they will deal with it. The thing is, the city is very

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tense. The country is very sentence. There are clashes not just here but

:04:58.:05:05.

elsewhere in the country as well. The army will be stuck within that,

:05:05.:05:09.

they want to remain above the battle, literally and

:05:09.:05:13.

metaphorically, they are players. They have always been strong

:05:14.:05:21.

arbiters of power here, what they are also is as well as arbiters of

:05:21.:05:24.

power, they are open political players. There are reprecussions

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with their relationship with the Americans. The Americans bank roll

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the Egyptian army, $2 billion a year. Under American law if the

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Americans decide what has happened here is a coup d'etat, by most

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definitions I would say that is what it is, by law they are

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obligated to suspend those aid aiplts. We have to remember there

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were 13 million or so people who voted for Mohamed Morsi. They may

:05:55.:05:58.

not have been as noisy as the protestors these last few days. But

:05:58.:06:08.

they are not keen to give up power. At the beginning of the day, when

:06:08.:06:13.

the future of the Arab world's most populus country hung in the balance.

:06:13.:06:17.

Supporters of President Mohamed Morsi proclaimed their patriotism

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and declared they wouldn't leave the streets.

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Their hero is not very charismatic, he admits he has made mistakes, big

:06:26.:06:33.

ones in his first year in office. But he's democratically elected.

:06:33.:06:36.

For Morsi's movement, the Muslim Brotherhood, who organised that

:06:36.:06:42.

rally, that is what counts. After the revolution we vote for our

:06:42.:06:48.

President, he is the only authority, the only elected authority in the

:06:48.:06:54.

history, in Egyptian history. Only elected, one election free. He is

:06:54.:07:01.

the only elected authority in Egypt. He is the President.

:07:01.:07:06.

As they waited for the announcement and whether the army would

:07:06.:07:11.

intervene to remove him, following a rejection of the ultimatum to bow

:07:11.:07:16.

to millions of anti-Government protestors, their rallying cry was

:07:16.:07:23.

legitimacy. That wasn't all. "We sacrifice ourselves with our

:07:23.:07:28.

blood and our soul for Islam" they are shouting now. Most of the time

:07:28.:07:31.

Muslim Brotherhood spokesmen prefer to talk about democracy and

:07:31.:07:36.

legitimacy, but the cry here now is very different, it is for Sharia,

:07:36.:07:45.

for an Islamic state. These people, mainly religious,

:07:45.:07:47.

mainly lower middle-class represent a huge strand of Egyptian society

:07:47.:07:50.

that feels it was excluded from power for decades under the

:07:50.:07:55.

dictatorship, and now, after just one year, it is being threatened

:07:55.:08:02.

with exclusion from power again. The Muslim people are part of this

:08:02.:08:07.

country OK, but the liberal people want to take over the country. The

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country, this country is an Islamic country, it is an Egyptian country,

:08:11.:08:16.

not for one people, not for one part of people, all of us are

:08:16.:08:22.

Egyptians, but unfortunately the liberal people want to take over

:08:22.:08:28.

the country. Now, as far as these people are

:08:28.:08:33.

concerned, Egypt's liberals, and Egypt's army are formed an

:08:33.:08:37.

unnatural alliance against them and they are scared. What haunts

:08:37.:08:41.

Islamists is the memory of though they were prepressed, many tortured

:08:41.:08:47.

and im-- repressed and many tortured and imprisoned in the long

:08:47.:08:49.

dictatorship. That is why since the Muslim Brotherhood it has been in

:08:49.:08:53.

power it has tried to reach an accommodation with the army and the

:08:53.:08:59.

police, clearly that hasn't worked. Now many are afraid that if the

:08:59.:09:06.

army intervenes again, dark days of oppression will turn. This physics

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teacher, a Muslim Brotherhood member remembers that.

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TRANSLATION: Because of my ideology as a Muslim brother, I was arrested,

:09:16.:09:20.

imprisoned and tortured under Hosni Mubarak. They used to take me from

:09:20.:09:22.

my school to the state security prison, there was oppression all

:09:22.:09:27.

the time, sometimes I had to tell them I wasn't a in the Muslim

:09:27.:09:33.

Brotherhood to save myself. military coup now he predicted

:09:33.:09:39.

would just lead to civil war. (gunfire) A frightening glimpse of

:09:39.:09:44.

what could happen came earlier, when clashes between supporters of

:09:44.:09:48.

the Government were reported to have killed at least 16 people.

:09:48.:09:51.

Meanwhile, across town on Tahrir Square, the mass protest movement

:09:51.:09:55.

that has erupted in recent days was also waiting for the army's

:09:55.:10:02.

announcement. Some even demanding that the President be arrested. As

:10:02.:10:04.

the army's deadline passed, security forces moved around Cairo,

:10:04.:10:09.

but the military's intentions remained unknown as top generals

:10:09.:10:13.

held crisis talks with opposition and religious leaders. Reports that

:10:13.:10:17.

the army had already put Mr Morsi under house arrest were denied by a

:10:17.:10:24.

presidential spokesman. Then, at last, hours after everyone expected

:10:24.:10:29.

came the announcement everyone was waiting for. TRANSLATION: The Armed

:10:29.:10:36.

Forces sensed its vision that the Egyptian people which are calling

:10:36.:10:45.

it to support it, not to take power or to regin, but it is calling the

:10:45.:10:51.

forces to serve the public interest and to protect the demanding of the

:10:51.:11:01.
:11:01.:11:03.

revolutions. As the crowd of protestors erupted in delight, the

:11:03.:11:06.

Defence Minister went on to announce that a technocratic

:11:06.:11:08.

Government will take over power until new presidential elections

:11:08.:11:12.

can be held. He said the constitution pushed through last

:11:12.:11:15.

year by the Muslim Brotherhood was cancelled, a new one would be

:11:15.:11:19.

written to pave the way for a new parliament. All over Cairo those

:11:19.:11:23.

who opposed the Muslim Brotherhood took to the streets to celebrate.

:11:23.:11:31.

think it is the proper action against a dictator. I think it is a

:11:31.:11:35.

proper justice to all Egyptians. I think all aspects were addressed

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properly. I think there will be somebody to just take charge and

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until we are ready to set up a parliament and until we are ready

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to just move ahead. The protestors have got almost all they wanted.

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But this isn't the end of the crisis. The announcement, a coup,

:11:53.:12:00.

in all but name, keeps the army out of day-to-day politics. But it

:12:00.:12:05.

reinforces a fundamental fault line in Egyptian society. And it raises

:12:05.:12:10.

profound questions about what the Arab Spring was really for?

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This certainly hasn't been a triumph for democracy. The crowds

:12:13.:12:19.

are now cheering the very forces, the army and the Police whom they

:12:19.:12:23.

were denouncing only a year ago, and who stand abused of many human

:12:23.:12:27.

rights abuses. As the party goes on in Tahrir Square, the army is now

:12:27.:12:31.

blocking roads to try to contain further protests by the other side,

:12:31.:12:34.

supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood. Talk of compromise

:12:34.:12:42.

seems to have been forgotten, and the stageset for further conflict.

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With us now is a spokesperson for the Muslim Brotherhood in the UK.

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Do you help that you have lost? What has happened today is a coup.

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It is unconstitutional and it is not legitimate to completely

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dismiss what people, as you mentioned, over 13 million people

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wanted. They wanted a President. I think it is very interesting also

:13:07.:13:11.

to portray the constitution as a Muslim Brotherhood constitution,

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this constitution went to the referendum to the people and over

:13:14.:13:18.

62% of the people voted in favour of it. So it gained its legitimacy

:13:18.:13:24.

through the ballot box as well. I think what has happened is

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completely, I don't know, I can't seen describe how horrendous an act

:13:30.:13:33.

it is against democracy against all values, the western countries are

:13:33.:13:43.
:13:43.:13:46.

standing for. Do you understand where President Morsi is tonight?,

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do you know where he is? I have been in contact with people who

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closely associated with the President at the moment, some of

:13:56.:14:00.

the few people are present with him at the moment President Morsi has

:14:00.:14:08.

had a statement maybe half an hour ago. And he reemphasised the

:14:08.:14:12.

legitimacy, the illegitimate institutional democracy that we

:14:12.:14:16.

want to get into constitutional democracy. He emphasised we don't

:14:16.:14:20.

want to go down the route of violence. He emphasised the

:14:20.:14:23.

importance of having peaceful transitions generally. He also

:14:23.:14:26.

emphasised that this is a coup and the world has to stop this coup

:14:26.:14:34.

from happening. Millions of people are on the streets and even at home,

:14:34.:14:37.

they have voted for President Morsi, they have not taken to the streets

:14:37.:14:41.

as you have mention the but that will make them angry. They won't

:14:41.:14:44.

believe in democracy. We have had a referendum for the constitution and

:14:44.:14:47.

now the constitution is cancelled. We have had presidential elections

:14:47.:14:52.

and now there is a coup against him, a military coup to a point that

:14:52.:14:55.

presidential candidates are people who wanted to be Presidents are

:14:55.:14:59.

being appointed. And a third thing as well, the parliament has been

:14:59.:15:02.

dissolved, so you have already had parliamentary elections and then

:15:02.:15:11.

they want us to go steps back, ever time we go towards democratic

:15:11.:15:15.

legitimacy we are sent back it status quo. Do you know how

:15:15.:15:25.
:15:25.:15:27.

President Morsi, was he arrested tonight? I don't have a clear view

:15:27.:15:31.

of that. My brother is the assistant of the President for

:15:31.:15:34.

foreign relations, he is a senior assistant for the President. He has

:15:34.:15:42.

been close with him over the past days, he hasn't been home. I was

:15:42.:15:46.

trying to get hold of him over the last two hours, it was impossible.

:15:46.:15:50.

The militarys has spread the tanks throughout east Cairo, around the

:15:50.:15:53.

demonstrators who are supporting President Morsi, it is possible

:15:53.:15:59.

also to get in touch by -- it is impossible to get in touch by phone

:15:59.:16:03.

in east Cairo, they shut all the TV channel, all the Islamic TV

:16:03.:16:08.

channels were shut. I think this is a reputation of the era in 1954

:16:08.:16:12.

when he did the military coup. I think this is the statement that

:16:12.:16:16.

says in Aric beneath his picture, "this is what we are going to do

:16:16.:16:20.

for the Muslim Brotherhood". Certainly announcing a military

:16:20.:16:25.

coup that would last from 1954 until 2011 and then for 50-

:16:25.:16:29.

something years and we need another revolution like the one we had in

:16:29.:16:33.

2011. It is very early days obviously, what is the thinking

:16:33.:16:43.
:16:43.:16:45.

within the Muslim Brotherhood about how things go forward from here

:16:45.:16:50.

Muslim Brotherhood think that we need to stay together and try to

:16:50.:16:53.

enforce the democracy. And the democracy of the ballot box, try to

:16:53.:16:58.

move it forwards and get people to actually express their opinion in a

:16:58.:17:08.
:17:08.:17:15.

democratic way. It is impossible to dismiss the blunt bias. It is very

:17:15.:17:20.

important Muslim Brotherhood is encouraging everyone to take part

:17:20.:17:25.

in support of the legitimacy and to stand against the military coup

:17:25.:17:31.

that is taking place at the moment. We will not take another era, we

:17:31.:17:38.

will not take another military coup. The army has said it will react

:17:38.:17:43.

forcibly if there is resistance to what it has done? That is what Nasr

:17:43.:17:49.

said. The difference between 2011 and 2013 is people in 2013 were so

:17:49.:17:53.

scared to go out against Mubarak because of his state police. When

:17:53.:17:58.

my brother who is now somewherek went out in 2011, jeopardising our

:17:58.:18:01.

familiarly, when I went out, when we have been protesting ever since

:18:01.:18:05.

I was a child for democracy and human rights, we were so scared.

:18:05.:18:11.

But we didn't care now millions are on the street because they know

:18:11.:18:14.

there is nothing to stop them expressing their opinions.

:18:15.:18:19.

President Morsi wouldn't express them from -- stop them from

:18:19.:18:24.

expressing their opinions. He has allowed freedom of expression. The

:18:24.:18:28.

military coup will stop the Muslim Brotherhood supporters or even the

:18:28.:18:31.

legitimacy supporter from expressing their opinions. Thank

:18:31.:18:36.

you very much. We are expecting to be speaking to

:18:36.:18:40.

an Egyptian army general shortly but in the meantime let as talk to

:18:40.:18:44.

Mark Urban, it is quite something when you compare the Arab Spring

:18:44.:18:48.

optimisim with this summer's anxiety about whether the state can

:18:48.:18:51.

survive. Popular protests then brought down Governments, not just

:18:52.:18:56.

in Egypt but in Tunisia, Libya and in Yemen, encouraged by the west.

:18:56.:19:01.

Today all the United States is doing is wittering. Meantime, of

:19:01.:19:06.

course, there is a nasty Civil war raging in Syria, threatening to

:19:06.:19:10.

destablise neighbouring Lebanon, taken together they do make you

:19:10.:19:13.

bonder about the west's encouragement of democracy in the

:19:13.:19:19.

region. What ought we to understand about this part of the world? Our

:19:19.:19:23.

diplomatic editor is with us. Whys has the Arab Spring gone so badly

:19:23.:19:27.

wrong, do you think? This is a big moment, isn't it tonight, a good

:19:27.:19:34.

moment to take stock. We have seen these revolutions across the region.

:19:34.:19:38.

The countries affected, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen and of course

:19:38.:19:43.

Syria. The old system has been overturned, or at least seriouslyle

:19:43.:19:48.

challenged in Syria, and in a sense people are struggling to find a new

:19:48.:19:54.

system that make sense. The key thing that people are struggling,

:19:54.:20:01.

we have heard the world so many times tonight, "legitimacy".

:20:01.:20:06.

Elections only seem to play an understand depbltdepbl role in that

:20:06.:20:14.

quest. Where do we want, religion, Islam in its different forms, the

:20:14.:20:17.

army. All these constitutions argued about in Egypt for the past

:20:17.:20:21.

two years, all of these things are being seized upon by people trying

:20:21.:20:26.

to find legitimacy. You might say they are making progress in some

:20:26.:20:33.

places, but in other places its a truingling without end. Contrast

:20:33.:20:38.

that with the monarchys in the region, there hab problems in

:20:38.:20:42.

Bahrain and Jordan, it is facing difficult challenges, but Qatar

:20:42.:20:46.

managed a leadership change the other week and nobody in theed. An

:20:46.:20:50.

ordinary success through the dynastic principle. Even though

:20:50.:20:55.

they may be challenged and dissent in those countries, in those

:20:55.:20:59.

countries the greater sense of legitimacy has resulted so far in a

:20:59.:21:02.

more ordinary situation at least. What are the options for the west?

:21:02.:21:08.

Well, look at the journey that the US /UK and other countries have

:21:08.:21:11.

been on, particularly since the Iraq War. They went into Iraq,

:21:11.:21:17.

having done so for all sort of reasons, this argument, many people

:21:17.:21:23.

called it a neo-conargument about trying to plant a model democracy

:21:23.:21:30.

in the Middle East. It brought to power religious-based parties and a

:21:30.:21:34.

lot of amateurs and those who played the sectarian game, a costly

:21:34.:21:38.

process for Iraq. The US encouraged the Palestinian Authority to hold

:21:38.:21:44.

elections. That indirectly brought about the split between Hamas in

:21:44.:21:47.

Gaza and Fatah on the West Bank. Which has disastrous consequences

:21:47.:21:52.

for the Middle East peace process. In Lebanon too, American pressure

:21:52.:21:56.

to hold elections that eventually led to this Hezbollah dominatedle

:21:56.:22:02.

coalition. Not a result that in many ways -- dominated coalition,

:22:02.:22:07.

not a result that America would be happy with. They don't feel able to

:22:07.:22:11.

suggest anything other than democracy, but it is rebounding to

:22:11.:22:15.

the detriment of western interests. It could be that these countries

:22:15.:22:18.

are not suitable for democracy? That is an old fashioned view. If

:22:18.:22:21.

you travel across the region you do meet many people, particularly in

:22:21.:22:26.

countries like Egypt, there are sizeable cohorts of people who get

:22:26.:22:29.

it. Young people, networked into the world. They know what

:22:29.:22:35.

democratic freedoms look like. Think understand it, it is a hell

:22:35.:22:40.

of a struggle, you can look at some of these places and say the glass

:22:40.:22:46.

is half full. Tunisia and Libya have held successful election, they

:22:46.:22:51.

face challenges of Islamisation. In Tunisia lawlessness and Libya. But

:22:51.:22:55.

they are getting there. But this struggle could stilling very long

:22:55.:23:02.

in some of these places. Thank you very much. We are going

:23:02.:23:05.

to talk now about the broader question about what to expect what

:23:05.:23:11.

will happen in the rest of the region? We have a number of guests

:23:11.:23:19.

over here. Including the recent British ambassador in Cairo. Other

:23:19.:23:27.

guest from earlier is also here as is the, what are you? The Coptic

:23:27.:23:32.

bishop? I'm general bishop of the Coptic church in the UK. We are

:23:32.:23:38.

joined from tort ront toe by a writer of Sex -- Toronto, writer of

:23:38.:23:45.

Sex in the Citadel. Let's go to Toronto, can you tell us what you

:23:46.:23:55.
:23:56.:23:55.

think went wrong? With former President Morsi's Government, there

:23:56.:23:59.

is so much happening, which bit went wrong. Nobody in the west

:23:59.:24:07.

would seek to encourage a military coup in the normal course of events.

:24:07.:24:15.

Why was it necessary in the view of the Egyptian military. The Muslim

:24:15.:24:20.

Brotherhood had literally a once- in-a-lifetime opportunity, for 80

:24:20.:24:23.

years it has been waiting to come to power. When it came to power it

:24:23.:24:26.

made a spectacular mess of things, in terms of economic, all the

:24:26.:24:34.

problems that Egypt has, in term of the inability to -- in terms of the

:24:34.:24:38.

inability to provide on the streets for Egyptians. They failed. What is

:24:38.:24:40.

most frustrating is former President Morsi appears to have

:24:40.:24:45.

taken a leaf out of the PlayBook of former President Mubarak. Borrowing

:24:45.:24:51.

many of the same tactic, yes I know he talks about being democratically

:24:51.:24:54.

elected, when he declared himself Pharaoh until further notice at the

:24:54.:25:04.
:25:04.:25:05.

end of last year, when he tried ride roughshod over the parliament,

:25:05.:25:09.

and threw journalists into prisons and tried to limit the laws that

:25:09.:25:13.

limited civil society. These are undemocratic actions, no wonder he

:25:13.:25:18.

has been playing the card of legitimate elections because he

:25:18.:25:22.

threw all the other cards of democracy away. Former President

:25:22.:25:26.

Morsi has forgotten that you cannot deal with the Egyptian people any

:25:26.:25:29.

longer. You can't use the tactics of President Mubarak, because the

:25:29.:25:34.

one thing that former President Mubarak had of fear on his side. He

:25:34.:25:38.

had an apparatus to instill that fear. All that is gone. President

:25:38.:25:44.

Morsi did not learn from that and he and his colleagues are paying

:25:44.:25:48.

the price. The first democratically elected

:25:48.:25:56.

President, this was an exciting event why did it go wrong?

:25:56.:25:59.

Performance and distrust. Performance in that he didn't

:25:59.:26:02.

deliver, they didn't deliver what the Egyptian people were looking

:26:02.:26:06.

for, improvement to their lives. And distrust has just been pointed

:26:07.:26:14.

out, at the end of last year. Putting himself above the law. In

:26:14.:26:18.

one sentence he destroyed what the whole point of the revolution in

:26:18.:26:26.

2011 was about. So I think those are two Cardinal ipept policy tegss

:26:26.:26:31.

that were made. -- inept policy decisions that were made.

:26:31.:26:37.

Ineptitude wasn't the Monday loply of the Government. Everybody in --

:26:37.:26:41.

monopoly of the Government. Everyone was playing an inept game.

:26:42.:26:47.

But they were unable to put together a coherent vision, and the

:26:47.:26:54.

military issued an ultimatum and called time. Did you feel this was

:26:54.:26:58.

an illegitimate Government? didn't think it was illegitimate.

:26:58.:27:03.

There was a democratic election. won a majority? There was a small

:27:03.:27:06.

presence there. Basically the President, the former President

:27:06.:27:11.

came in with a 12% mandate. Only 50% of Egyptians eligible to vote,

:27:11.:27:17.

only 50% went out to vote, only 50% barely voted of that was said to be

:27:17.:27:20.

democratic. The problems that happened during that is there was

:27:21.:27:30.
:27:31.:27:31.

actually no attempt to bring the people together after allegations

:27:31.:27:35.

about Muslim Brotherhood and even Christians, that after the last few

:27:35.:27:39.

decades there was a culture of divide and conquer. Rather than

:27:39.:27:45.

using it to bring people together to create a cohesive state and

:27:45.:27:48.

national identity, there was a greater breakdown. So we find

:27:48.:27:52.

towards the end now it was no longer even Christian-Muslim. It

:27:52.:27:57.

was one agenda against everyone else. You have a look of mourning

:27:57.:28:03.

on your face. I understand why. But do you accept that any of these

:28:03.:28:07.

criticisms have any validity in them? First I don't accept he's a

:28:08.:28:12.

former President, according to the Egyptian constitution he is the

:28:12.:28:15.

President. An important point to make actually. Let's leave that to

:28:15.:28:19.

one side? Some of the concerns are legitimate. The President since his

:28:19.:28:21.

first day, he opened up for dialogue, he called for dialogue

:28:21.:28:26.

over and over again. In January he called for a dialogue, over and

:28:26.:28:30.

over again, for open dialogue. He offered the National Salvation

:28:30.:28:38.

Front leaders positions, he offered them to lead the Government. He

:28:38.:28:41.

offered primes position and President position to one of the

:28:41.:28:48.

National Salvation Front leaders as well. He has been opening up. The

:28:48.:28:52.

old position did not want that, and didn't want to put hand in hand

:28:52.:28:55.

with the Muslim Brotherhood at the moment. I see the opposition at the

:28:55.:28:57.

moment as fractured opposition, not even prep ynt I have of what's

:28:57.:29:04.

happening on the streets. I do not see a future for Egypt after this

:29:04.:29:13.

point to be honest. What is the wider implication for what happened

:29:13.:29:15.

to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt for other similar organisations

:29:16.:29:19.

throughout the region? I think it is not just a question I would

:29:19.:29:21.

address to the Muslim Brotherhood. I think it is the political

:29:21.:29:24.

leadership in all the countries. Particularly those who have gone

:29:25.:29:29.

through the revolutions. We have seen and in Eastern Europe, in the

:29:29.:29:35.

1990s and in other revolutions the political transition is going to be

:29:35.:29:41.

bumpy, complex and not easy for those on the ground. And not easy

:29:41.:29:47.

for outside Governments who have to deal with those countries. The

:29:47.:29:51.

message is deliver improvement in people as lives, that is what they

:29:51.:29:55.

wanted. Treat them with dignity, that is what the revolutions were

:29:55.:30:05.
:30:05.:30:06.

about. Include people into the future. Some countries are very

:30:06.:30:10.

lucky and they have at that period in their transitions people with

:30:10.:30:15.

the vision and charisma. Sadly those sorts of leaders are few and

:30:15.:30:20.

probably, I can't think of them, in the Arab revolution countries.

:30:20.:30:24.

So you have to, they have to count on something rather different,

:30:24.:30:29.

which is delivering results, and making people feel that they are

:30:29.:30:35.

part of the policy process. Let me put it very crudely to you, the

:30:35.:30:42.

suggestion is being made already by some people that most of these

:30:42.:30:48.

countries are in a word too unsophisticate, too primitive for

:30:48.:30:54.

democracy? What do you think? Speaks as an Egyptian and

:30:54.:30:58.

vehemently reject that. We are seeing the evolution on the ground.

:30:58.:31:04.

There aren't that many people that went from decades of Cologneian

:31:04.:31:10.

occupation, and then the military to a single democracy in a bound.

:31:10.:31:15.

When your other guest says the opposition loader is fragmented and

:31:15.:31:18.

disorganised. Over the past few years we have seen the coming

:31:18.:31:22.

together of groups. They were chaotic after the 2011 uprising,

:31:22.:31:26.

you look today at the ability to mobilise tens of millions on to the

:31:26.:31:35.

strot. You look at the sophistication of the country, this

:31:35.:31:39.

is a learning curve for everyone, this is the training ground of

:31:39.:31:47.

demoingcy. We have taken Australian -- democracy, we have taken an un -

:31:47.:31:54.

- un seen road with the Muslim Brotherhood but we are back out

:31:54.:31:59.

inhead. Do you think your society will prakure with the demands of

:31:59.:32:02.

democracy? I think that the Egyptian society was not ready for

:32:02.:32:08.

a quick implementation of democracy, two factors were never resolved,

:32:08.:32:11.

illiteracy and poverty. You have a society that is there, that wants

:32:11.:32:16.

to move ahead. What we have seen in Tahrir Square over the past two

:32:16.:32:21.

days, and the past month, it is not a society unable to live democracy.

:32:21.:32:25.

It is a society that was never prepared for it. Even in the past

:32:25.:32:29.

year nothing has been done for that as well. Ifer we are going to talk

:32:29.:32:32.

about receipt -- we are going to talk about rhetoric, there has been

:32:32.:32:37.

a lot of rhetoric over the past year and delivery. I must tell you

:32:37.:32:40.

something for our brothers on the street for the Muslim Brotherhood.

:32:40.:32:47.

I say that sincerely, I know what it means as a Christian in Egypt to

:32:47.:32:51.

be marginalise, alienated, not to to be brought into a process, there

:32:51.:32:56.

is that fear but that was never, ever addressed. What we want at the

:32:56.:32:58.

moment is reconciliation on every front. When there is a call to

:32:59.:33:02.

bring people together. We heard in the military statement today that

:33:02.:33:06.

there was a small for all parties to come together months ago,

:33:06.:33:12.

including the presidency. To try to avoid a day like today. Everyone

:33:12.:33:15.

turned up but the presidency. There was an arrogance about the process,

:33:15.:33:22.

that is what led us to today. Egypt fragmented and will not continue to

:33:22.:33:27.

exist in this way. I have a strong fear that Egyptians, by their

:33:27.:33:31.

nature are a wonderful loving people who want to work together.

:33:31.:33:35.

They just need pragmatic and intentional leadership in that

:33:35.:33:40.

direction. That wasn't there but hopefully it will be. What the

:33:40.:33:45.

broader implications for the region as a whole, there was all the

:33:45.:33:49.

exuburance for the car rab spring. It is not turning out as everybody

:33:49.:33:55.

-- for the Arab spring. It was always going to be a difficult

:33:55.:34:00.

transition, you don't come out of 40, 50 years of no political

:34:00.:34:04.

expression into a fully-formed democratic structure. It was

:34:04.:34:13.

utterly predictable in that sense. It is going to be bumpy. I contest

:34:13.:34:19.

the that the region is not able for representative politics, democracy

:34:19.:34:23.

whatever you want to call it. One thing you have seen in Cairo and we

:34:23.:34:28.

saw it in 2011, and I have seen it in Libya is a passionate interest

:34:28.:34:32.

amongst the people to be represented and to have their

:34:32.:34:39.

voices heard. That to me is democracy pure and simple. Can I

:34:39.:34:42.

add something to that, what we have seen on the street is so man people

:34:42.:34:47.

from different walks of life with - - so many people with different

:34:47.:34:51.

walks of life and agendas, if you give them a common goal and cause

:34:51.:34:55.

they will stand together, that is the pragmatic leadership needed

:34:55.:34:59.

right now. Nice to end on a positive note.

:34:59.:35:03.

Certainly anyone who uses them knows which recreational drugs are

:35:03.:35:06.

illegal in Britain. If you choose to use them you buy from a dealer

:35:06.:35:12.

and you know you take a risk to enhance your sen sayings. Yet there

:35:12.:35:18.

is an abundance of substances which you can go into a shop and buy

:35:18.:35:22.

legal low and consumed for pleasure. It is assumed just because they are

:35:22.:35:26.

not illegal they are not dang are you. They can be as plenty of

:35:26.:35:30.

deaths testify. The plain fact is chemists can cook up new ways of

:35:30.:35:40.
:35:40.:35:45.

getting off your head, faster than the Government can regulate them.

:35:45.:35:51.

Legal highs, designer drugs, new psychoactive substances. Call them

:35:51.:35:58.

what you will, but these are drugs created for the sole purposes of

:35:58.:36:02.

mimicking illegal substances. They are often brand-new, untested

:36:02.:36:06.

chemicals that around UK law by simply claiming not to be for human

:36:06.:36:13.

consumption. When it leave the shop it is up to

:36:13.:36:18.

them. They are a free human being to do whatever they want with the

:36:18.:36:23.

product. It is a huge experiment, essential low people are treating

:36:23.:36:27.

themselves as guinea pig. You will try one and like it the first time,

:36:27.:36:34.

90% of people. It is the aftermath, how many times it does ruin. How is

:36:34.:36:39.

it that these strong untested new psychoactive substances, linked to

:36:39.:36:44.

at least 40 deaths last year are so freely available. Is the Government

:36:44.:36:52.

losing the fight against this booming industry. Jessica was

:36:52.:36:55.

taking a lot of legal highs a couple of years ago of the she was

:36:55.:36:59.

16 and buying them from a shop on her local high street. When you

:36:59.:37:03.

first take them you think it is good because you never felt that

:37:03.:37:06.

feeling before. You sort of experiment with your own body.

:37:06.:37:11.

After a bit you sort of realise that you can't function right, you

:37:11.:37:16.

can't do simple tasks like make a cup of juice. Your body just feels

:37:16.:37:23.

drained and you want to go to sleep yet you are so awake. When I used

:37:23.:37:28.

to take legal highs...Jessica Stopped taking legal highs after

:37:28.:37:37.

getting fits of paranoia. A friend died after taking the band Meth

:37:37.:37:41.

drone. I noticed on Facebook statuss he was very depressed and

:37:41.:37:46.

down and I tried to speak to him. I lost confidence when I came out

:37:46.:37:52.

through that scene. I had had found out he hung himself on come thank

:37:52.:37:59.

he couldn't hack it on New Year's Day. This is one of 14 branches of

:37:59.:38:09.

UK Skunk Works, a called head shops selling various smoking

:38:09.:38:14.

paraphernalia. They sell potpourri and research chemicals. They are

:38:14.:38:18.

labelled not for consumer consumption, it means they can be

:38:18.:38:26.

sold openly but it means suppliers can't say to take them. It would be

:38:26.:38:35.

nice it provide information if someone accidentally ingested the

:38:35.:38:41.

product. It is an insane situation of having things on show and saying

:38:41.:38:50.

they are research chemicals and everybody knows that. It is a 21

:38:50.:38:53.

test century issue. The products are here, we are transparent, that

:38:53.:38:57.

is what we do. We brought it to the high street to be the first to

:38:57.:39:06.

regulate this industry. The top is transparent and we are transparent

:39:06.:39:09.

with you. We can't be transparent with certain products because of

:39:09.:39:15.

legislation. That is why. Which allows him to sell these products

:39:15.:39:19.

as long as he isn't tell them as drugs.

:39:19.:39:26.

These are the research bell lets, they are nicely packaged, it may be

:39:26.:39:34.

harmful if inhaled and et. It has the chemical combound underneath.

:39:34.:39:44.
:39:44.:39:45.

Do you know what that is? The Internet means anyone with

:39:45.:39:49.

access to a credit card can easily buy these drugs. I ordered some

:39:49.:39:53.

line and they arrived in the promised discreet packaging the

:39:53.:39:58.

next day. More time has been getting suppliers to speak openly

:39:58.:40:03.

about the industry. Most didn't reply to my e-mail, one got in

:40:03.:40:09.

touch and said they looked after 40% of the legal high market. It

:40:09.:40:16.

creates many thousands to create a new legal high and manufactured on

:40:16.:40:23.

an industrial scale in India and China and redistributed in the UK.

:40:23.:40:33.

The owner of this station claims one million viewers, including --

:40:33.:40:41.

there are adverts to buy untested legal highs, and people can report

:40:41.:40:46.

dodgy vendors and look at doses. That is why Midas says his site is

:40:46.:40:51.

doing more to reduce harm than Government hands? We bend on

:40:51.:40:57.

substance. There you go, you can't sell that or recruit it. A new

:40:57.:41:01.

substance comes, this substance has even less information available. It

:41:01.:41:05.

might even be the sun stance is more harmful to people's lives that

:41:05.:41:14.

it is a law that it is not working. The Government says its system is

:41:14.:41:22.

constantly reviewed, but it can't second guess what might be harmful.

:41:22.:41:26.

Where we have discovered there is a legal high harmful to human health

:41:26.:41:30.

and there are recorded cases of people being admitted to hospital

:41:30.:41:34.

or in really extreme cases, dying as a result of taking that product.

:41:34.:41:38.

I think we have to intervene and legislate at that point. Whether

:41:38.:41:41.

that means that somebody invented another product. We don't know.

:41:41.:41:44.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I don't think that is a reason to

:41:44.:41:48.

turn a blind eye to the harm being done by the product that is being

:41:48.:41:53.

put in front of us. We took some of the substances we

:41:54.:42:03.

bought to beest ited by leading toxicologists. Given the head shop

:42:03.:42:09.

we went to didn't know what was in Pink Pant they ares, we wondered if

:42:09.:42:18.

the doctor had any idea., This is sold as a cocaine or speed copycat

:42:18.:42:27.

drug. What do we know what is in there? It has meth probe mean. That

:42:27.:42:33.

is similar to amphetamine. It is a very potent substance, it is known

:42:33.:42:38.

as crystal meth. It is not controlled by the Misuse of Drugs

:42:38.:42:41.

Act. But probably has a similar effect. So the people taking this

:42:41.:42:46.

stuff, do we know anything about what effect it could be having on

:42:46.:42:51.

their body? Nothing at all. They have not been tested as vugs. The

:42:52.:43:00.

people who know most about it are the kids of those who bought it.

:43:00.:43:06.

The assistance on the side of the packaging was accurate, there no

:43:06.:43:12.

instructions about it is due. Dr Ramsey explained how the drugs are

:43:12.:43:17.

developed to evade the law. They come about in two ways, people

:43:17.:43:25.

looking at the information for research tools or evaluated as

:43:25.:43:30.

pharmaceuticals or never been marketed. They look at a

:43:30.:43:36.

fundamental chemical structure like methamphetamine to see if they can

:43:36.:43:42.

bring it outside control. It this is how it might work, this is the

:43:42.:43:52.

chemical structure of a synthetic cannabis structure called AM-20 81.

:43:52.:43:56.

This is the active cannabis part that gets you high. If you keep

:43:56.:44:02.

this part of the chemical structure deep and look out for other places,

:44:02.:44:12.
:44:12.:44:13.

you get PB22. It retains the active cannabis-like elements but

:44:13.:44:23.
:44:23.:44:24.

different from AFPB000. -- some Lord Chancellor local authorities

:44:24.:44:28.

have tried to -- some local authorities have tried to sell the

:44:29.:44:31.

psychoactive substances. Health officials have told us an

:44:31.:44:35.

increasing number of people have ending up in hospital after taking

:44:35.:44:40.

legal highs. The local council took this shop into court after a

:44:40.:44:45.

teenager ended up in hospital after taking a sub gans called GoGaine.

:44:45.:44:52.

What we want -- a substance called GoGaine. We need action. We have

:44:52.:44:56.

had talks with people in the Home Office, we took a prosecution but

:44:56.:44:59.

unfortunately the laws in this area are very complex and clearly there

:44:59.:45:03.

is a gap in the legislation that enabled us to take a prosecution of

:45:03.:45:08.

this kind. We failed because he put harmful on the product box, saying

:45:08.:45:17.

this is "harmful" for human health.Le A mile away from the main

:45:17.:45:22.

Glastonbury site is a giant cow shed by has been transformed into a

:45:22.:45:26.

mobile Police Station. And Government testing laboratory.

:45:26.:45:30.

Scientists here are trying to identify brand new psychoactive

:45:31.:45:36.

substances, it is their job to warn their Government particularly toxic

:45:36.:45:39.

new drugs. Whilst we are there, they came across something they

:45:39.:45:44.

have never seen before. We have identified it as a slight

:45:44.:45:50.

chemical MoT p modification on an already illegal drug. BZP, it was

:45:50.:45:55.

the type of drug to mimic the effects of ecstacy. We have to run

:45:55.:46:00.

more tests to determine the exact structure and to determine if it is

:46:00.:46:06.

itself I I will lool. -- is illegal. The Government says

:46:06.:46:10.

it is leading the international response to this bourguignoning

:46:10.:46:20.

market by outlawing whole familiar -- burpblging market by outlawing

:46:20.:46:24.

whole familiar swathes of things. It seems the Government remains

:46:24.:46:29.

several steps behind. While we have been on air the

:46:29.:46:32.

Foreign Office has issued a statement on Egypt saying the

:46:32.:46:37.

situation is dangerous, and has called on all sides to show

:46:37.:46:41.

restraint and avoid violence. Kirsty will be here tomorrow. Good

:46:41.:46:51.
:46:51.:47:18.

night. The rain returns to the west in the night. Heavy bursts to start

:47:18.:47:22.

with across Scotland and northern England, patchy rain and drizzle

:47:22.:47:26.

for Wales and the south west. A lot of mist and sea fog. Showers

:47:26.:47:31.

pushing south and eastward, after the overnight rain showers in

:47:31.:47:35.

Northern Ireland with brightness. The rain lighter across western

:47:35.:47:41.

Scotland. Showery in nature. Some will stay dry, dry brighter

:47:41.:47:45.

conditions returning with 18 or 19. Brightening up for northern England.

:47:45.:47:50.

In the showers in the morning brighter morning expected. Sunny

:47:50.:47:54.

spells in East Anglia, there is the chance of one or two showers around

:47:54.:47:58.

during the second half of the day. Some close to Wimbledon, a very

:47:58.:48:02.

small risk, most will stay dry. A dry afternoon across Wales and the

:48:02.:48:04.

south west too. Considering you start the day, grey and misty with

:48:04.:48:10.

fog around here. It does look much, much brighter. Now Thursday into

:48:10.:48:13.

Friday, high pressure starts to build. You will notice on the city

:48:13.:48:18.

forecast across the north. Cloud forecast across the north. Cloud

:48:18.:48:20.

around but a lift in temperatures. The further south the bluer the

:48:20.:48:24.

skies will be. Patchy cloud can't be ruled out here and there, but

:48:25.:48:28.

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