04/07/2013 Newsnight


04/07/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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After the spectacular fall of democracy in Egypt, the military

:00:12.:00:16.

began cracking down on the Muslim Brotherhood today. But if political

:00:16.:00:22.

Islam has failed, what could take its place? This is the Egypt that

:00:22.:00:26.

rejects the army's intervention, they have said they won't leave

:00:26.:00:31.

this square, but they haven't yet spelt out a strategy for opposing

:00:31.:00:34.

the new authorities. How should the west respond to the return of

:00:34.:00:39.

military rule. We will speak to the former French Foreign Minister, and

:00:39.:00:45.

George W Bush's close ally, Paul Wolfowitz. The Labour movement is

:00:45.:00:50.

at war with itself over allegations of union malpractice. Tom Watson

:00:50.:00:54.

resigns in the Shadow Cabinet, and the head of Unite union attacks the

:00:54.:00:58.

party leadership. Is Labour imploding, I will speak to Angela

:00:58.:01:01.

Eagle from Labour's front bench. The new research that suggests that

:01:01.:01:06.

what we sometimes label the ups and downs of teenage behaviour could be

:01:06.:01:11.

undiagnosed depression and suicidal tendencies. It gets to the point

:01:11.:01:15.

where you are looking at sharp objects and thinking about the ways

:01:15.:01:19.

you could kill yourself. That is when you realise that is not

:01:19.:01:22.

hormones but something more serious, I don't think that is something

:01:22.:01:29.

most teenagers would do. As the chef of the world Graham muscle

:01:29.:01:36.

Bullfinch restaurant and avant- garde cuisine, I try to tempt him

:01:36.:01:45.

with something I have knocked up! Egyptians woke up this morning in a

:01:45.:01:50.

new regime, but not unknown. This coup represents a stunning defeat

:01:50.:01:53.

for political Islam. The Muslim Brotherhood has been preparing for

:01:53.:01:59.

power since they were created in the 1920s, and after less than a

:01:59.:02:03.

year they have been kicked out by a popular uprising and the military.

:02:03.:02:06.

Today the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood was arrested by the

:02:06.:02:10.

security forces cracking down on the Islamist movement. We have

:02:10.:02:12.

spoken to leading figures in the Muslim Brotherhood who vowed

:02:12.:02:16.

resistance against the army, their first act of defiance has been to

:02:16.:02:20.

call of a Friday of rejection following weekly prayers tomorrow.

:02:20.:02:28.

We report from Cairo. Less than a day into the latest

:02:28.:02:33.

victory of the popular will in Egypt you could see the despair on

:02:33.:02:38.

the faces of the defeated. Muslim Brotherhood supporters thought they

:02:38.:02:41.

too were children of the revolution. But the revolution has now devoured

:02:41.:02:51.
:02:51.:02:53.

them. At midday prayers today, where Morsi supporters gathered in

:02:53.:02:57.

a Cairo suburb, the Imam issued a special prayer against those who

:02:57.:03:01.

laid injustice on them. The reference to the army's ousting of

:03:01.:03:10.

a democratically elected President was unmissable. This doctor has

:03:10.:03:14.

brought me to this outpost of resistance. He has told his wife

:03:14.:03:18.

and four children he doesn't know when he will be home again, because

:03:18.:03:22.

the protest camp will stay here until it is forcibly removed. It is

:03:22.:03:26.

never mentioned by the new army- controlled state media. They are

:03:26.:03:31.

isolating us from the world so that you should let our voice go to the

:03:31.:03:36.

world. Let them see that we are supporting Morsi, we are supporting

:03:37.:03:42.

Egypt. We will fight for our freedom, even by sacrificing

:03:42.:03:45.

ourselves. They have their faith, they believe, and democratic

:03:45.:03:49.

legitimacy on their side. But beyond shouting, it is not clear

:03:49.:03:58.

what they will do next. This is the Egypt that reject the armyer a

:03:58.:04:02.

intervention -- army's intervention. They say they won't leave the

:04:02.:04:08.

square, but they haven't spelt out a strategy for opposing the army.

:04:08.:04:12.

One of the senior Muslim Brotherhood members who hasn't been

:04:12.:04:16.

arrested was leaving the protests. Will there be strikes and

:04:17.:04:21.

disobedience? TRANSLATION: Civil disobedience isn't started with one

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decision, it is state that society reaches when it can't deal with the

:04:25.:04:29.

regime. We are simply protesting and rejecting the new situation

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peacefully, in many different ways. Where will the Muslim Brotherhood

:04:33.:04:36.

go now? The movement founded in Egypt which spread throughout the

:04:36.:04:41.

Middle East has been persecuted for much of its 85-year history. After

:04:41.:04:45.

the 2011 revolution it seized the chance to work through electoral

:04:45.:04:49.

politics. Will it now have to think again?

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Yesterday's events raised profound questions, not only about whether

:04:53.:04:56.

the Arab Spring can produce democracy, but also about whether

:04:56.:05:00.

political Islam can ever be confident of coming to power

:05:00.:05:04.

successfully through the ballot box. It worked in Tunisia, it worked in

:05:04.:05:08.

Turkey, but here, Egypt, the heart of the Arab world, this is the test

:05:08.:05:11.

case. Everyone knows there is a chance

:05:11.:05:15.

now that some Islamists will turn to violence.

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And you still believe the ballot box, you still believe in

:05:18.:05:24.

elections? Of course. Of course. But let me say something, what the

:05:24.:05:32.

army did to us may change the minds of other people. This is so

:05:32.:05:36.

dangerous for everyone in Egypt. But we are sticking and we will

:05:36.:05:40.

make people stick to the peaceful way, to give back -- get back our

:05:40.:05:44.

democracy. The problem is that over so many

:05:44.:05:53.

years, as a semi-clandes tin underground organisation, the --

:05:53.:05:56.

semi-clandestine underground organisation, it has turned in on

:05:56.:06:00.

itself, it didn't understand it was just about getting votes, but

:06:00.:06:04.

building alliances in society. That is what they failed to do last year,

:06:04.:06:08.

what lesson will they learn now? I was in their place I would be

:06:08.:06:11.

receiving two difficult messages. The first message is that we have

:06:11.:06:18.

done something wrong. And we need to be self-critical. We have failed

:06:18.:06:22.

to question our own leaders. We have failed to understand how

:06:22.:06:27.

democracy works. We have failed to understand how diverse and complex

:06:27.:06:33.

and big Egypt is. Alternatively, the odds are against us and there

:06:33.:06:41.

is no way we can really work within Egypt, within this democratic

:06:41.:06:45.

system. Maybe time has come to revisit the question of violence.

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Maybe now is the time to go back to violence.

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Today the unelected head of the constitutional court was sworn in

:06:54.:06:58.

as the new interim President. He promised the Brotherhood wouldn't

:06:58.:07:02.

be excluded from political life. But he implied Morsi's rule had

:07:02.:07:09.

been as bad as Mubarak's. TRANSLATION: We should stop

:07:09.:07:14.

producing new dictators and not worship anyone except God, no idols,

:07:14.:07:22.

fetishs or Presidents. Egypt's military, staging this fly-past

:07:22.:07:30.

over Cairo, may not be worshipsed - - sworshipped, but they want to be

:07:30.:07:35.

love. The thousands are cheering and staying on Tahrir Square until

:07:35.:07:39.

the Road Map for elections is brought forward. Some who oppose

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Morsi are even more worried by the authoritarian steps the army has

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taken since yesterday. We are 2 hours into the intervention, we

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have seen the closure of TV -- 24 hours into the intervention, we

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have seen the closure of TV stations and a lot of arrests that

:07:55.:08:03.

look like political I a -- arrested, aren't you having second thoughts,

:08:03.:08:07.

it is not such a good idea? I don't think I would have seen it to be a

:08:07.:08:11.

good idea in the first place. It seems to be coming back to the

:08:11.:08:14.

Mubarak way of dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood, rounding up

:08:14.:08:19.

their leaders, shutting down their media. Their newspaper was censored

:08:19.:08:23.

today as well. This is not the way to deal with a party that was

:08:23.:08:27.

democratically elected. For now, though, all the

:08:27.:08:32.

Brotherhood can do is express their anger and try to protect themselves

:08:32.:08:36.

in a country where no side seems to understand the meaning of the word

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"inclusive". Here to discuss the dilemma is Egypt presents for other

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Governments of the former US deputy Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz,

:08:48.:08:56.

and the former French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner. This

:08:56.:08:59.

difficult question of democratic legitimacy. The Muslim Brotherhood

:08:59.:09:05.

members were, they were elected by the ballot box, they have been set

:09:05.:09:09.

aside by the military, you know, what is the chance that they will

:09:09.:09:12.

turn to something other than the ballot box and perhaps return to

:09:12.:09:21.

violence? Well it is very difficult to understand. To answer your

:09:21.:09:31.
:09:31.:09:35.

question now. I hope that the this will look better than the Arab

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Spring. We don't know. I was listening to your words, is

:09:39.:09:42.

democracy be able to set up overnight, over one year?

:09:42.:09:52.
:09:52.:09:53.

Impossible. But was it necessary for the people, very numberous

:09:53.:09:59.

people, mill they came down into the street and more numerous than

:09:59.:10:06.

they were -- millions they came down on to the street and more

:10:06.:10:08.

numerous than the Muslim Brotherhood. Is it enough? I don't

:10:08.:10:13.

think so, but is it better? I think it is better. Paul Wolfowitz you

:10:13.:10:17.

were very much a supporter of democracy for the Middle East. Did

:10:17.:10:20.

you think it would prove so difficult in Egypt that one year on

:10:20.:10:27.

Morsi would be deposed? You know I think Egypt is suffering from the

:10:27.:10:32.

death of civil society that was imposed by decade of dictatorial

:10:32.:10:35.

rule. I'm not at all surprised it is difficult. Something that was

:10:36.:10:40.

largely missing in the introduction, as I heard it, is this wasn't the

:10:40.:10:44.

military acting spontaneously. This was the military acting in response

:10:44.:10:47.

to some eight million people, not just in Cairo, but all over the

:10:47.:10:51.

country, protesting against what they saw as both the incompetence

:10:52.:10:55.

and the dictatorial character. Paul Wolfowitz, he was

:10:56.:10:58.

democratically elected, he was democratically elected and there

:10:58.:11:04.

are a lot more than eight million people in Egypt. Is that a

:11:04.:11:07.

legitimate thing for the military to do simply because of protest?

:11:07.:11:12.

I'm not saying it is legitimate, if you let me finish. These people

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were protesting what they saw as an abuse of democratic power by the

:11:17.:11:22.

Morsi Government and an inclination of going back to dictatorship,

:11:22.:11:26.

elected dictatorship. That is not what they want either. No-one can

:11:26.:11:30.

govern Egypt successfully unless they find a way to do it

:11:30.:11:33.

inclusively. The military certainly can't. I would be surprised if the

:11:33.:11:37.

military thinks they are capable of governing Egypt when these forces

:11:37.:11:40.

are let loose. They better figure out very quickly how to step back

:11:40.:11:46.

and build some kind of Government that enjoys broader legitimacy.

:11:46.:11:50.

Either than Mubarak or than Morsi. On that question, do you think that

:11:50.:11:53.

the Muslim Brotherhood has a role to play, or is it just that you

:11:53.:11:58.

don't want them to play a dominant role. If in the ballot box next

:11:58.:12:03.

time round they are elected to run the Government, is that

:12:03.:12:05.

illegitimate, Paul Wolfowitz? think the Muslim Brotherhood has

:12:05.:12:10.

got to be part of the process, I also believe that getting a 51%

:12:10.:12:14.

majority in a democracy doesn't mean you can then go and do

:12:14.:12:17.

whatever you want to do. Certainly that is not your view in England,

:12:17.:12:21.

it is not our view in the United States, I don't believe it is the

:12:22.:12:25.

view in Egypt. It is not completely clear why eight million people

:12:25.:12:29.

turned out. But I certainly believe it was clear that they felt this

:12:30.:12:33.

Government didn't share their priorities for the country. Bernard

:12:33.:12:38.

Kouchner, what should the European powers do. This essentially was a

:12:38.:12:43.

military coup, why will Europe not just call it what it was, a

:12:43.:12:49.

military coup? Technically it was a military coup. But I remember when

:12:49.:12:53.

during the first round and the second round, the Algerians decided

:12:53.:12:59.

to suppress the second round because the first round was in

:12:59.:13:03.

favour of the Islamists. Were they right? Were we right to support

:13:03.:13:10.

that? I doubt it. Honestly I doubt it. We will see, because the

:13:10.:13:13.

Egyptian soldiers, they promised us, they promised to the Egyptian

:13:13.:13:19.

people to set up a sort of coming back to the ballots and elections

:13:19.:13:27.

in a very short time. We will see. Secondly, they were in power, the

:13:27.:13:33.

Egyptian soldiers were, with Mubarak and with Saddad, and in

:13:33.:13:40.

power for 25 years, were they better? I doubt it. After we will

:13:40.:13:43.

see. Paul Wolfowitz, the problem for America is if you call it a

:13:43.:13:47.

military coup, you cannot, by the constitution, give Egypt military

:13:47.:13:57.
:13:57.:14:02.

aid, can you? Let Paul Wolfowitz answer. Give me one second, as the

:14:03.:14:09.

problem for America, you cannot give Egypt military aid at this

:14:09.:14:14.

time It depends on what you call this, that language was put in law

:14:14.:14:18.

when you had the case in Latin America with the military stepping

:14:18.:14:22.

in without popular backing and removing civilian Governments. I

:14:22.:14:25.

don't know of the phenomenon. It is unprecedented to have eight million

:14:26.:14:28.

civilians out in the streets peacefully demonstrating and then

:14:28.:14:34.

the military steps in. If they try to keep control and keep power then

:14:34.:14:37.

certainly it will be considered a coup. But I believe that the view

:14:37.:14:43.

is, from the Obama administration to give them some time to see if

:14:43.:14:47.

they are serious about the promise of restoring democracy. That is the

:14:47.:14:50.

essential thing right now to move forward. Is a military state

:14:50.:14:57.

preferable to a Government run by the mob? Well, we will see. But

:14:57.:15:01.

there is no other way that what Paul said, of course you have to

:15:01.:15:04.

wait. Certainly to help the people there. But not only to help the

:15:04.:15:09.

military people, but to help the civilian people, to train them. I

:15:09.:15:16.

mean, it was impossible. But remember Muslim Brotherhood is one

:15:16.:15:21.

in four of the population, among the Egyptian population. One in

:15:21.:15:26.

four people is part of the Muslim Brotherhood. They were the only

:15:26.:15:30.

organised force. So we have to count with them. We cannot just

:15:30.:15:34.

reject them because of this big demonstration. We have to teach

:15:34.:15:41.

them, if it is possible, or they have to learn or invent a sort of

:15:41.:15:48.

fraternity inbetween the citizens, we will see, we will see.

:15:48.:15:51.

There has to be compromise going forward. Thank you very much both

:15:51.:15:56.

of you. Old Labour politics, like a dinosaur waking up from a long

:15:56.:16:01.

sleep have roared back to life in the selection process in Falkirk to

:16:01.:16:05.

replace the present MP, Eric Joyce. Allegations of a union stitch-up

:16:06.:16:11.

for the seat fell at Labour's deputy Tom Watson, who left the

:16:11.:16:17.

post and Shadow Cabinet. After an internal inquiry, Karie Murphy, the

:16:17.:16:22.

office manager and Unite's favoured candidate was suspended from the

:16:22.:16:25.

Falkirk Labour Party by Ed Miliband, as was the constituency chairman.

:16:25.:16:29.

The Conservatives have jumped on the controversy, their Party

:16:29.:16:32.

Chairman claiming Ed Miliband is not in control of his party. This

:16:32.:16:42.
:16:42.:16:57.

At 463 words this was the longest of Tom Watson's three resignation

:16:57.:17:02.

letters written in just seven years. Its length is perhaps apt. This

:17:02.:17:09.

might be the biggest of any mess he has left behind. The Scottish seat

:17:09.:17:14.

of Falkirk is the cause of this latest and possibly last Tom Watson

:17:14.:17:17.

resignation. As Labour's general election co-ordinator, he had been

:17:17.:17:23.

implicated in a nasty Fight about the union, Unite's role, in who

:17:23.:17:27.

should be Labour's candidate here. This week the Tories used the

:17:27.:17:35.

Falkirk row to ask the question who runs Labour? Ed Miliband other the

:17:35.:17:38.

unions. With the general election co-ordinator for Labour walking out

:17:38.:17:42.

with just two years to go to that general election, and this despite

:17:42.:17:46.

Ed Miliband pleading with Tom Watson to stay, it looks like Ed

:17:46.:17:52.

Miliband does run the Labour Party, it is just that at times today it

:17:52.:17:58.

has not been a very firm grip. After the departure of Eric Joyce,

:17:58.:18:02.

The Dark Knight union is accused of holding the selection for his

:18:02.:18:07.

replacement in a very firm Europe that Unite packed its members on to

:18:07.:18:11.

the local Labour Party list, to ensure their preferred candidate,

:18:11.:18:15.

Karie Murphy, won it. Both because of Tom Watson's responsibility for

:18:15.:18:19.

election candidates, and because candidate, Karie Murphy, was also

:18:19.:18:22.

Tom Watson's office manager, he came under pressure. Trade unions

:18:22.:18:25.

that support their members and the work place are an important part of

:18:25.:18:29.

our society, but they can't bully and get their way within the Labour

:18:29.:18:33.

Party. It seems what has happened in Falkirk is Unite have

:18:33.:18:37.

overstepped the mark, they should remember that Ed Miliband runs the

:18:37.:18:42.

Labour Party, not Unite. Labour HQ had taken action, they took control

:18:42.:18:47.

of the selection process away from Falkirk. But Falkirk had already

:18:47.:18:53.

become a fault line for the Labour Party. Behind the scenes Blairites

:18:53.:19:01.

like Jim Murphy were overtly pitched back into battle against

:19:01.:19:05.

the Brownites. His resignation and this line, referring to his

:19:05.:19:10.

departure from Blair's Government, he makes the Blairite Brownite

:19:10.:19:20.
:19:20.:19:26.

This afternoon Falkirk Party Chairman, Stephen Deans, and Karie

:19:26.:19:30.

Murphy were suspended. A bold move by the Labour leader. He also

:19:30.:19:34.

suspended the scheme which allows unions, like Unite, to sign members

:19:34.:19:39.

up to the Labour Party and pay fees on their behalf.

:19:39.:19:43.

Waton and others from across the union movement want Labour's report

:19:43.:19:48.

into Falkirk to be published. Many sources privately say that the

:19:48.:19:53.

truth might not be as ugly. Len McCluskey, Unite's leader is

:19:53.:20:03.
:20:03.:20:11.

The Conservatives want to use this row to paint Ed Miliband as a man

:20:11.:20:18.

thoroughly in the pockets of the unions. The Red Ed was his earlier

:20:18.:20:21.

days as leader. The Labour Party want something completely different.

:20:21.:20:26.

They want the row with The Dark Knight union to be so vivid and

:20:26.:20:30.

technicolor that Ed Miliband clearly stands -- with Unite union

:20:30.:20:35.

to be so vivid and in technicolor that Ed Miliband clearly stands as

:20:35.:20:41.

separate from his backers. Tom Watson wrote a back about the

:20:41.:20:46.

hacking scandal, and Labour now have to restore cleanliness and

:20:46.:20:49.

credibility to their general election strategy if they are to

:20:49.:20:54.

dial M for majority. Angela Eagle, a member of Ed

:20:54.:20:58.

Miliband's Shadow Cabinet is here. An extraordinary attack by Len

:20:58.:21:02.

McCluskey of Unite, it is a stitch- up, you are trying to smear Unite

:21:02.:21:07.

and its members, incendiary language, is he right? Of course

:21:07.:21:11.

not. This is, he's telling lies, this is not happening? Don't put

:21:11.:21:16.

words in my mouth. The issue here is about what's been going on in

:21:16.:21:21.

Falkirk which has led to the suspension of that process because

:21:21.:21:25.

of irregularities with the membership. And we have been open

:21:25.:21:33.

about all of that. We are now looking at it more closely. The

:21:33.:21:35.

general election secretary and the leader of the Labour Party will

:21:35.:21:40.

take action as a result of what's been going on in Falkirk. Let's be

:21:40.:21:48.

quite clear. Unite, �8.5 million for the party. �115,000 for Ed

:21:48.:21:51.

Miliband's campaign. You have had �14,000 for your constituency.

:21:52.:21:56.

Unite has the whip hand. You can't afford to have a fight with Unite?

:21:56.:21:59.

Of course they don't have the whip hand. They are an affiliated trade

:21:59.:22:04.

union with the party. I have to say we support the trade union link in

:22:04.:22:07.

the Labour Party. We're proud of our connection to millions of

:22:07.:22:11.

ordinary working people up and down the country. Let's not mix things

:22:11.:22:17.

up. But being proud of our trade union links doesn't mean that we

:22:17.:22:22.

can tolerate what went on in Falkirk. What we have to do, what

:22:22.:22:25.

the leader of the Labour Party has been doing today is demonstrating

:22:25.:22:29.

that we have to ensure that our parliamentary selections are fair

:22:29.:22:34.

and transparent with integrity, and we have to look after the Labour

:22:34.:22:36.

Party's rules. And the integrity of the Labour Party rules. That is

:22:37.:22:41.

what we are doing. You heard what Jim Murphy said there, he was in

:22:41.:22:45.

turn attacked by Unite's Len McCluskey for saying it is not

:22:45.:22:49.

worthy that the members of the Shadow Cabinet in initiating that

:22:49.:22:54.

attack upon Unite, that is people like Jim Murphy. Do you agree with

:22:54.:22:58.

what Jim Murphy said, we can't have the bullying stuff, unions

:22:58.:23:03.

overstepping the mark and Unite overstepping the mark? We can't

:23:03.:23:07.

have anyone, an affiliate or individual member of the Labour

:23:07.:23:11.

Party disregarding the Labour Party rules when it comes to

:23:11.:23:13.

parliamentary selections or anything else, it is for the leader

:23:13.:23:17.

of the Labour Party who has taken firm and decisive action today to

:23:17.:23:22.

protect the integrity of the Labour Party rules. Tom Watson said he

:23:22.:23:26.

decided it was time for him to resign. But Newsnight has spoken to

:23:26.:23:30.

Ed Miliband's office and Ed Miliband's office said they made

:23:30.:23:34.

the call on Tom Watson, did he resign, or did Ed Miliband tell him

:23:34.:23:38.

he had to go? My understanding is he talked to Ed Miliband earlier in

:23:38.:23:44.

the week saying he wished to go. Ed told him he wanted to think about

:23:44.:23:50.

it and not do something in the spur of the moment. Ed phoned him today

:23:50.:23:56.

and they had the discussion and the letters were issued. So this, not

:23:56.:24:00.

this is very important. It is about the leadership of the Labour Party

:24:00.:24:05.

here. Funnily enough Tom Watson, you know, in his letter praised Ed

:24:05.:24:09.

Miliband for being a bit like Buddha. But maybe he's just

:24:09.:24:12.

meditating a bit too long isn't he. He doesn't seem to be able to make

:24:12.:24:16.

up his mind? You can't have it both ways, one moment you are saying

:24:16.:24:20.

he's not decisive enough and the next moment too decisive. Look he

:24:20.:24:27.

has acted decisively and swiftly to deal with...We Don't actually

:24:27.:24:32.

know...Kirsty Let me finish. He has acted decisively and swiftly to

:24:32.:24:38.

deal with what is going on in Falkirk which is unacceptable and

:24:38.:24:42.

protect the integrity of Labour Party selection proceed proceedings

:24:42.:24:45.

and rules. If Len McCluskey -- procedures and rules. If cles cles

:24:45.:24:51.

cles has the same duty to act to protect the ining at the -- Len

:24:51.:24:57.

McCluskey has the same duty to act to protect the integrity of his

:24:57.:25:02.

union's rules we have to protect our rules. It is clear there was a

:25:02.:25:06.

conversation between Ed Miliband and Tom Watson about his resigning?

:25:06.:25:09.

Earlier. Then there was another conversation, it doesn't sound like

:25:09.:25:12.

Ed Miliband was making a decisive call over something that clearly he

:25:12.:25:17.

thinks is a problem for the party in Falkirk? I think that if you

:25:17.:25:22.

look at what happened with the suspension of the Falkirk selection

:25:22.:25:28.

procedure, with the ending of the union join scheme and with the

:25:28.:25:33.

suspension of the individuals who have been accused of malpractice

:25:33.:25:38.

with respect to the union rules, that is decisive action. We have

:25:38.:25:42.

seen that from our leader today. Len McCluskey, we asked him on the

:25:42.:25:46.

programme and he wouldn't come on tonight. He's calling for another

:25:46.:25:50.

inquiry, an independent one into what went on. Should he get that.

:25:50.:25:55.

After all, he is your biggest backer? No, it is up to the leader

:25:55.:25:59.

of the Labour Party, working with our General Secretary, to he d side

:25:59.:26:04.

how we put our rules into effect. Len McCluskey can have an opinion,

:26:04.:26:09.

but it is not his job to decide how to act. Today we have acted to

:26:09.:26:13.

protect the integrity of our Labour Party rules. That is a clear

:26:13.:26:16.

message to Len McCluskey, there will be no independent inquiry,

:26:16.:26:22.

there are 41-backed Unite candidates in the Labour Party,

:26:22.:26:26.

these are Unite candidates not Labour Party candidates? This is

:26:26.:26:29.

ridiculous and I'm surprised to hear it coming from you. There are

:26:29.:26:32.

many people who are members of the trade unions in the party, just

:26:32.:26:35.

because one is a member of the trade union doesn't mean you are

:26:35.:26:42.

some sort of automatic yum, I'm a member of -- automate tum, I'm a

:26:42.:26:49.

member of the trait unions as as the party was created to look after

:26:49.:26:51.

the interests of millions of working people up and down the

:26:51.:26:55.

country, who are op proseed by the bad economic policies of this

:26:55.:26:59.

Government. It keeps us in touch with reality and ordinary people.

:26:59.:27:07.

We are proud of our trade union links. 20 years ago this year two

:27:07.:27:11.

boys aged just ten were convicted of the murder of the toddler James

:27:11.:27:15.

Bulger. It was shocking and disturbing. Jon Venables was

:27:15.:27:21.

released from prison in 2001 aged 17 and given a new identity. Three

:27:21.:27:27.

years later he was re-arrested and found guilty of distributing dozens

:27:27.:27:31.

of child pornography on his computer. Two years ago he was

:27:31.:27:36.

denied parole, today the parole board has decided he should be

:27:36.:27:39.

released. James Bulger's mother and father believe this is the wrong

:27:39.:27:42.

decision. We are joined from Liverpool by a solicitor. First of

:27:42.:27:49.

all, what was the argument made by James Bulger's parents against the

:27:49.:27:55.

granting of parole today? Well we had the opportunity to make a

:27:55.:27:58.

statement to the Parole Board in May. One of the things of concern

:27:58.:28:05.

was the fact that two years ago the Parole Board considered that Jon

:28:05.:28:12.

Venables was not fit to be released, so what has changed. He was

:28:12.:28:17.

convicted of a serious sex crime. He was unable to cope with life on

:28:17.:28:24.

the outside, the support was not adequate. And he is undoubtedly a

:28:24.:28:29.

potential danger to society. But more than that, there is a concern

:28:29.:28:34.

that if he is released, as is indicated he will be released, we

:28:34.:28:39.

have no idea on what basis, where he is going to live, how he is

:28:39.:28:45.

going to be supervised. Innocent people have in the past been

:28:45.:28:51.

mistaken for him and there is a fear that he, that some innocent

:28:51.:28:58.

person will be injured or even killed. But is that an argument for

:28:58.:29:02.

saying Jon Venables cannot be rehabilitated? The counter argument

:29:02.:29:06.

is that the parole was turned down two years ago, the Parole Board now

:29:07.:29:11.

feel there is sufficient ground to suggest that he can operate outside

:29:12.:29:20.

within society. It would be more reassures to know on what basis

:29:20.:29:25.

they have come to that conclusion. From the point of view of raffle

:29:25.:29:29.

Bulger and his family, we haven't been -- Ralph Bulger and his family,

:29:29.:29:34.

we haven't been told anything. Last time Jon Venables was released, I'm

:29:34.:29:37.

right in saying you did have perameters, you did know something

:29:37.:29:41.

of the circumstances of his release and what the boundaries would be.

:29:41.:29:45.

Is it your understanding that would happen this time? My understanding

:29:45.:29:53.

that under the Code of Practise for victims there is supposed to be

:29:53.:29:56.

consultation on the conditions of parole, for example where the

:29:56.:30:00.

offender is going to live. This time there has been no consultation,

:30:00.:30:07.

we have been told nothing about the conditions of residence. Last time

:30:07.:30:12.

Jon Venables was placed to Cheshire, adjacent to Merseyside, and

:30:12.:30:14.

breaches those conditions on a number of occasions entering

:30:14.:30:22.

Merseyside. We do not know where he will be placed. If which can -- if

:30:22.:30:25.

we can turn briefly to Robert Thompson, what is your

:30:25.:30:28.

understanding of his position? There is an injunction by which

:30:28.:30:32.

nothing can be said about his where abouts, or his identity. But he is

:30:32.:30:38.

on the outside. Assuming he is on the outside, we assume that he is

:30:38.:30:44.

on the outside living a life in the community as a law-abiding citizen?

:30:44.:30:50.

Well we know nothing. What we do know in the case of Jon Venables is

:30:50.:30:56.

that the significant breach of his license conditions there were, and

:30:56.:30:59.

some criminality. It was only when matters became so serious that the

:30:59.:31:04.

authorities recalled him to custody. Do you think though that your

:31:04.:31:09.

clients object to this now and have made their views clear to the

:31:09.:31:14.

Parole Board, is that, do you think, a lifelong objection. That the

:31:14.:31:18.

assumption, that the assumption you are making that Jon Venables, in

:31:18.:31:21.

your clients' view will never be in a position to live on the outside?

:31:21.:31:29.

I think one has to look at the practicalities of this. When Jon

:31:29.:31:34.

Venables was released back into society, he was 17-18 years old.

:31:34.:31:40.

And he was able to create a new identity and live that, live a new

:31:40.:31:45.

life. Unfortunately unsuccessfully. He's now 30 and a lot of water has

:31:45.:31:53.

passed under the bridge. He has had a corrupting episode in his life,

:31:53.:31:58.

committing serious sex offences, and how easy is it for him to

:31:58.:32:02.

create presumably another new idea toe and live a further life. So it

:32:02.:32:12.
:32:12.:32:16.

is a highly risky strategy. Thank you very much. Still to come:

:32:16.:32:21.

We will be serving up an interview with Catalan chef, Ferran Adria.

:32:21.:32:25.

The best days of your life, that is the cliche, but there seems to be

:32:25.:32:27.

growing evidence that large numbers of young people are suffering from

:32:27.:32:32.

mental health problems. Tomorrow a new charity, Mindful, launches an

:32:32.:32:38.

on-line counselling support service for young people. The launch

:32:38.:32:41.

coincides with a survey that suggests one child in five has

:32:41.:32:45.

symptoms of depression, and almost a third have thought about or

:32:45.:32:48.

attempted suicide before they were 16. In a moment we will hear from

:32:48.:32:52.

the clinical psychologyist, Tanya Byron. Through young people tell us

:32:52.:32:57.

first what it is like to suffer with mental health problems.

:32:57.:33:00.

From a very young age I was always worrying, scared about things that

:33:00.:33:06.

you shouldn't really be scared about. When I was aged 11 I had

:33:06.:33:09.

what is known in the health service as a mental health crisis. I missed

:33:09.:33:15.

months of school, I couldn't leave the house, I was fiefg five-to-six

:33:15.:33:23.

panic attacks a day -- five-to-six panics attacks a day I was having.

:33:23.:33:27.

It is a numbness in your hands and feet, shaking, not being able to

:33:27.:33:31.

breathe, not being able to think about anything apart from what you

:33:31.:33:34.

are worrying about. You can make up one morning and feel fine and then

:33:34.:33:41.

later on that day have a pank attack and -- a panic attack, and

:33:41.:33:46.

have no idea why. Your heart feels like it is going to burst out of

:33:46.:33:52.

your chest and it is painful. When I'm having an intense period of

:33:52.:33:56.

anxiety it can be as many as five and six attacks a day. It is,

:33:56.:34:02.

shausing. I didn't want to put -- exhausting, I didn't want to put

:34:02.:34:07.

pressure on my parents, I kept it to myself, I felt I had dealt with

:34:07.:34:14.

it my whole life and I can deal with it a bit more.

:34:14.:34:18.

When I was 14 I thought I might actually commit suicide. There is a

:34:18.:34:21.

difference between considering the idea and then actually thinking,

:34:21.:34:28.

how you would plan and how you would go about committing suicide.

:34:28.:34:36.

You can't tell if something is hor moans -- hormones or mental illness.

:34:36.:34:40.

I had that thought in my mind, is this normal. Then it gets to the

:34:40.:34:45.

point of looking at sharp objects and thinking of how you would kill

:34:45.:34:49.

yourself with it, you realise that is much more serious because I

:34:49.:34:58.

don't think that is something most teenagers would do.

:34:58.:35:02.

For me things started to change when I was around 14, 15, the

:35:02.:35:08.

pressure of exams and GCSEs came. I wouldn't see my friend, I wouldn't

:35:08.:35:13.

be as open, or speak to anyone. I would come back from school and sit

:35:13.:35:23.
:35:23.:35:25.

up in my room for hours upon end. Every day I would wake up and

:35:25.:35:29.

headaches would be there, it was like a vice gripping my head, I

:35:29.:35:33.

didn't want to get out of bed because they were so painful. Then

:35:33.:35:37.

I found myself having nosebleeds two or three times a week, then my

:35:37.:35:42.

hands started shaking. I thought I would die because I was looking at

:35:42.:35:45.

the symptoms on Google and I convinced myself I had medical

:35:45.:35:48.

problems. I thought I had a brain tumour, I didn't tell anyone for

:35:48.:35:53.

weeks upon weeks, and eventually it all got a bit too much. I came home

:35:53.:35:56.

from school early because I couldn't face the afternoon's

:35:56.:36:00.

lessons, I just sat in my room and burst out crying of my parents were

:36:00.:36:03.

going through a lot of things at the time, my mum's health wasn't

:36:03.:36:08.

great. I saw them struggling and I didn't want to have to go and whack

:36:09.:36:18.
:36:19.:36:21.

another 10% on top of what they had. A lot of the way through primary

:36:21.:36:24.

school I was bull and secondary school as well. That took a big

:36:24.:36:28.

effect on the way I behaved, the way I interacted with people and

:36:28.:36:33.

just generally how I felt about myself. I let it build up. To the

:36:33.:36:37.

extent that I was having headaches, nosebleeds, panic attacks. I

:36:37.:36:40.

wouldn't want to go outside, I would want to come home from school,

:36:40.:36:44.

sit in my house, do what I do. On the weekends I wouldn't even want

:36:44.:36:49.

to go shopping with my family. I think it is a massive problem. We

:36:49.:36:53.

are not told it is OK to talk about mental health. That is the hardest

:36:53.:36:56.

part when you are going through something like that, it is not

:36:56.:37:00.

going through what you are going through but finding a way to stop

:37:00.:37:05.

it and finding a way to talk about it. It is a big step that

:37:05.:37:10.

youngsters of this generation are finding out that it is OK to talk

:37:10.:37:13.

about problems. It is intervention when you are younger and stopping

:37:13.:37:18.

your problems to stop them getting into something greater when you are

:37:18.:37:22.

older. Most days I just stay in bed and listen to music, I don't go out,

:37:22.:37:27.

I don't really socialise or do any work. I just either read or listen

:37:27.:37:31.

to music, because the effect it has on your ability to work, to

:37:31.:37:37.

consentrate, to focus, to persevere is enormous.

:37:37.:37:40.

I get really infuriated when people say just get yourself together,

:37:40.:37:44.

because I don't think they realise quite how serious it is, and quite

:37:44.:37:46.

how difficult it is to pick yourself up from that. You can't do

:37:46.:37:52.

it by yourself. You need help. you want more information or help

:37:52.:38:02.

go to the website. With me now is the child and

:38:02.:38:09.

addless sant clinical psyche -- adolescent psychologist, Tanya

:38:09.:38:13.

Byron. What your Mindful survey suggests is we are failing to Mick

:38:13.:38:18.

up on a lot of mental health issues amongst teenagers? I want to start

:38:19.:38:22.

by saying this is about prevention, not increasing numbers or

:38:22.:38:25.

medicalising children. This is about getting in early to offer

:38:25.:38:28.

support to children before they develop problems that become

:38:28.:38:33.

chronic. I work in child mental health service, I and my colleagues

:38:33.:38:40.

know we get children that have a level of impact that is so much

:38:40.:38:45.

bigger, cuts in services to child and young adult mental health

:38:45.:38:53.

services the cuts mean that as LSE told us in their latest survey that

:38:53.:38:56.

three-quarters of children that need mental health services aren't

:38:56.:39:00.

getting it. One of the arguments is being a young adult is tough, and

:39:00.:39:03.

there is a lot of external forces going on, there is the social

:39:03.:39:07.

context, what is happening in the school, but actually they have a

:39:07.:39:11.

huge impact on how a child feels. We have just heard with bullying,

:39:11.:39:15.

it is not always the child has a mental health issue, it is that the

:39:15.:39:19.

circumstances are such that lead to real anxieties and really problems?

:39:19.:39:26.

Exactly, I couldn't have put it better myself. This is why Mindfull

:39:27.:39:30.

is such a brilliant charity, I'm proud to be the President. We want

:39:30.:39:34.

to take peer mentoring into schools, we train children and young people

:39:34.:39:38.

to offer support and advice to other children and young people who

:39:38.:39:42.

are struggling with sometimes the everyday difficult realities of

:39:42.:39:47.

tkwroing up, of the transition into adulthood. By getting in early we

:39:47.:39:53.

are preventing it in the population but adult mental health problems.

:39:53.:39:57.

Is there an issue that you perhaps label teenagers with particular

:39:57.:40:01.

issues, and particular problems that are almost a self-fulfiling

:40:01.:40:05.

prophesy. I don't mean that generally but in individual cases?

:40:05.:40:10.

That is precisely what we are trying to stop happening. We don't

:40:10.:40:12.

want these children to become so chronic that they will be labelled

:40:12.:40:17.

and get a diagnosis. If you have a peer mental support system, young

:40:17.:40:22.

people who can support each other and can offer resources and on-line

:40:22.:40:27.

counselling, we can stop situations developing into full-blown mental

:40:27.:40:31.

health problems. When you see peer mentoring, this will require huge

:40:31.:40:36.

resores, you say the wait -- resource, you say the waiting lists

:40:36.:40:42.

are huge, huge resors for every child that needs it, consistent and

:40:42.:40:50.

reliable help. Because the danger is that you can't do everything

:40:50.:40:55.

that, sometimes in itself can cause more damage? We are not doing

:40:55.:40:58.

enough. We are looking at how to enable young people using social

:40:58.:41:03.

media, who say in very clearly in tonnes of research that peer

:41:03.:41:07.

mentoring and social media support is what young people value. Face-

:41:07.:41:10.

to-face consultation is very threatening, on-line therapy is a

:41:10.:41:14.

good way to start for people. line they werey has to be

:41:14.:41:20.

consistent and reliable. The danger with on-line therapy that you end

:41:20.:41:24.

up making a diagnosis on-line? are supported by Cabinet Office and

:41:24.:41:28.

a number of third sector agencies, we have a huge amount of resourcing,

:41:28.:41:32.

our therapists are trained therapists and counsellors, we do

:41:32.:41:37.

everything not to diagnose children but to enable them and empower them

:41:37.:41:40.

to manage their own mental health safely. In a world of celebrity

:41:40.:41:45.

chefs, he's a stand-out star with three michelin stars next to his

:41:45.:41:50.

name, a testament to his hard work, stant talent and originalty. His

:41:50.:41:58.

restaurant El Bulli was voted best restaurant five times. He's the

:41:58.:42:03.

first chef to have an exhibition at Somerset House in London, dedicated

:42:03.:42:08.

to his life and work. It opens tomorrow but today he gave me an

:42:08.:42:18.
:42:18.:42:20.

exclusive television interview. Very few of us will have

:42:20.:42:26.

experienced El Bulli, but at Somerset House the story of the

:42:26.:42:30.

restaurant and the chef that brought it into being is laid out,

:42:30.:42:35.

course by course, from liquid nitrogen to the foam and the shabby

:42:35.:42:40.

chairs from the restaurant itself. The deck cor not changed in 40

:42:40.:42:47.

years. Is -- -- decor not changed in 40 years. Is it about art or

:42:47.:42:52.

cooking? I cook.TRANSLATION: Cooking is cooking, it is true

:42:52.:42:59.

there is a type of cuisine that as an experience can be. T yi, pico?

:42:59.:43:03.

TRANSLATION: No an avant-garde cuisine, similar to painting and

:43:03.:43:09.

music. El Bulli was avant-garde. Are you flattered that people use

:43:09.:43:16.

some of the things that you used, lick gid nitrogen, all sorts of --

:43:16.:43:20.

liquid nitroagain, all sorts of things. You were the lead -- knit

:43:20.:43:24.

tro again, all sorts of things, you were the leader? We, but what we

:43:24.:43:34.
:43:34.:43:36.

were leaders in was thinking. What we did was not about the lick gid

:43:36.:43:42.

nitrogen, but we opened thousands of -- liquid nitrogen, but we

:43:42.:43:47.

opened thousands of people's minds to different things. How important

:43:47.:43:53.

was the atmosphere and Catalan to what you do? What Catalan for me is

:43:53.:43:57.

the feeling, the sea, the sun, Barcelona. That is what is

:43:57.:44:01.

important. The produce is not important, products are global, the

:44:01.:44:08.

tomatoes from the Americas, it is the feeling. Take shoe shi, I --

:44:08.:44:13.

sushi, I can make sushi, but the feeling about it would always be

:44:13.:44:16.

Catalan. How much do you feel the economic problems of Spain. How

:44:16.:44:26.
:44:26.:44:27.

much does it effect you? TRANSLATION: It is a problem of the

:44:27.:44:32.

system, not a problem of the people. The people are wonderful: Spanish

:44:33.:44:36.

youth are trying, the system has failed. But this has not only

:44:36.:44:41.

happened in Spain, Spain is the apex of the problem. Unfortunately,

:44:42.:44:45.

if things don't change elsewhere we are going to see the same thing in

:44:45.:44:54.

other countries. But now, El Bulli will change to be something

:44:54.:44:57.

different. Is that because you want to pass things on, is that because

:44:57.:45:03.

you want young chefs to follow, men and women, to build a tradition

:45:03.:45:13.
:45:13.:45:16.

like yours? The foundation is freedom. TRANSLATION:We want to

:45:16.:45:20.

help cusine to continue evolving, we want to make people think and

:45:20.:45:25.

reflect about creativity. At the restaurant we are developing

:45:25.:45:28.

creativity using cusine as a language. If there is one

:45:28.:45:36.

ingredient that you like to eat, what is it? TRANSLATION: Salt! It

:45:36.:45:40.

is the most important ingredient in the world. It is the only product

:45:40.:45:45.

that changes a dish, it totally changes the dish. Without salt the

:45:45.:45:50.

dish is something else. Caviar is fantastic, lobster, the truffle,

:45:50.:45:59.

but nothing major happens if there is no truffle, salt changes a dish.

:45:59.:46:04.

Salt, thank goodness then that in the fresh tomato sauce I have

:46:04.:46:14.
:46:14.:46:17.

prepared for Ferran Adria there was some very special salt.

:46:17.:46:27.
:46:27.:47:01.

(speaks in Spanish) Perfecto. That's funny. Fantastico.Tomorrow

:47:01.:47:11.
:47:11.:47:24.

We leave you with a classic track from the Nolan sisters following

:47:24.:47:30.

the news today that Bernie Nolan has died, she was aged 52.

:47:30.:47:35.

# I can't stop dancing # So move your feet babe

:47:35.:47:38.

# Because honey when I get up # I go to you

:47:38.:47:42.

# I'm in the mood # For dancing

:47:42.:47:47.

# Romaning # You know I shan't ever stop

:47:47.:47:49.

tonight # I'm in the mood

:47:49.:47:59.
:47:59.:48:03.

High summer is arriving, and with it some fairly high temperatures

:48:03.:48:08.

over the next few days. A God day in prospect for most of the -- a

:48:08.:48:12.

good day in prospect for most of England and Wales. Any showers will

:48:12.:48:16.

fade away. By the afternoon most of us will be dry, some sunshine

:48:16.:48:19.

across the east of Northern Ireland, that will do bonders for the

:48:19.:48:22.

temperatures, cloudier across the west and Scotland. More eastern

:48:22.:48:28.

areas seeing the lion's share of the sunshine. Temperatures at 4.00

:48:28.:48:34.

pm, and for a God part the afternoon low-to-mid-20s.

:48:34.:48:39.

Strong sunshine. Be aware. Around the coastal fringe cooler with the

:48:39.:48:43.

breeze coming off the sea. Mist from the coast of east Kent and

:48:43.:48:47.

Sussex. Across the south west of England. Although there may be

:48:47.:48:50.

broken cloud at times we should see sunshine. Inland temperatures

:48:50.:48:54.

should get up into the mid-20s in quit a few locations. A sunny end

:48:54.:48:59.

to the week, the weekend is shaping up well too. Across northern areas

:48:59.:49:02.

on Saturday a weather front pushing in across Northern Ireland and

:49:02.:49:06.

Scotland. Some showery rain here, although it should clear through by

:49:06.:49:09.

Sunday. Further south across the UK we are set fair with a lot of

:49:09.:49:12.

sunshine and temperatures will be on the rise day by day. So this is

:49:12.:49:16.

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