08/07/2013 Newsnight


The crisis in Egypt deepens. Is the economy to blame? Will Ed Miliband get heavy with the unions? And who are the hidden victims of welfare reform? With Jeremy Paxman.

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supports the army, but the square below me belongs to tens of


thousands of Muslim Brotherhood supporters.


We will try to find out with the help of both sides. And then this.


She means the world to me, I would do anything for her. The called


bedroom tax may look a pret -- a pretty straight forward hit at


benefits issues, but the reality may be more complex. If I turn


around and say to her you can't come over any more because we have


to move to a one-bedroom place, she would be devastated and maybe push


her away. Ed Miliband has let it be known that he has a speech in his


back pocket the unions may not like much, we will take a peek. Last


week it underwent a military coup, tonight the most important country


in the Arab world may be on the brink of civil war. It may even be


that what happened in Cairo at dawn today was the start of that war.


Over 50 people were killed and over 400 wounded in an incident which


supporters of deposed President Morsi are blaming on the army,


which unseated him last week, and soldiers say was set off by


terrorists. Let as first go to Cairo.


I'm on the roof of a mosque, and below me is the camp of pro-Morsi


supporters here in Cairo, thousands of gathering more through the


course of the day. Roaring their defiance as you can hear. They have


said they won't leave here until their President is reinstated or


until they are forcibly dispersed. The road leading out of this square


behind me is the road that leads to the presidential Guards Club, where


more than 50 people were killed last night. Down that road today in


successive waves Brotherhood supporters have tried to push. They


have been pushed back by the army. Today they are using only teargas.


If there has been less violence today, the rhetoric is really going


up. Today for example the Brotherhood's main political party


called specifically for an uprising and on the other side it is clear


that the authorities are trying to pin the blame for last night's


bloodshed squarely on the Brotherhood itself.S they closed


down the offices of the Brotherhood's faert, Freedom of


Justice, because they say guns were found inside it. It will be harder


and harder to make any conclusion with Islamists, even the our


Islamist party has withdrawn from talks from Government. Very hard to


see how an interim Government of the kind that has left can be


formed. Mark Urban here. Last Weir it was all Tahrir Square, Tim is in


another square? The mosque he was talking about behind him, is part


of the epicentre of it. All confined to a small area of eastern


Cairo. There is the mosque where Tim was, street that runs north of


there is the one he was referring to, up and down which there has


been so much trouble. Up at the other end of it is the Republican


Guard Officers' Club. When rumours went out late last week that ex-


President Morsi had been detained in there, the protestors walked up


the street and this is where the incidents where people were killed


and Jeremy Bowen and others were hit with buck shot. The protestors


were forced back down this street and before dawn the incident


unfolded. The supporters said people were shot while at prayer,


an emosive allegation, the army said they were attacked by


terrorists. Independent people said they had seen plain clothes people,


security men or hired thugs firing at the crowd. Pretty soon dozens of


people had been hit, whoever started it was clear that these


people were being carried back down the street, back to the Rabaa


mosque, where they were being treated in a mix shift triage. How


many people were hit all together? By lunchtime the Muslim Brotherhood


was saying that 51 people had been killed in this incident. The


Ambulance Service in Cairo were saying over 40, but the clashes


went on the street throughout the afternoon. In fact, if we look at


another place, almost a third of the way down the street, between


the Officers' Club and the mosque, where it is circled, further


incidents took place. This footage shots a member of the security


shows a member of the security forces with a gun in his hand, you


can see it jump in his hand. But down on the street you can see


casualties being carried away. Both sides were agreed that more than 50


were dead and 500 wounded. What are the political implications of all


of this? It is all seen enormous, as the news of this was broking


this morning, people were talking about civil war. The all near party


had gone along -- the All Noor party had gone along with it, they


are Salafists, they withdrew today. The Brotherhood were calling for an


uprising. This evening we saw the army briefing bringing outlines


about the return to democracy. Trying to ride the tide of popular


feeling and get the situation back under control. The version they


briefed out, this is not confirmed, is that within two weeks a panel


will sit down to try to rewrite the constitution, we have been here


before. In four months the new constitution will be voted upon by


a referendum of the people. Two weeks after that parliamentary


election and another two weeks presidential elections. That is the


version they are giving out to keep a lid on this. In Tahrir Square is


Egypt's deputy Culture Minister when Morsi came to power last


August. We hope to be joined by a spokesman for the Muslim


Brotherhood. But let me speak to you first in


Tahrir Square. Does this begin to look like civil war to you? It is


definitely not civil war. The civilians and liberals are seeing


it as terrorism, with an uprising with the lowest head count of 17


million going on to the streets. And the highest head count is 33


million. If something like that happens in the UK it suggests that


David Cameron will step down immediately. It does make you


wonder, when you have shots being exchanged between different


political factions, it does make you wonder what is the difference


between that and civil war? It will never be a civil war, Egyptians, by


nature, even the Muslim Brotherhood are staying at home and not on the


streets and are peaceful. Egypt is not Syria, it is not Libya, we're


very peaceful by nature. So it is never going to happen. And the


people who are trying to portray what happened starting on the 1st


of June until the 8th of July as a coup is totally wrong. The military


was totally unbiased during the year of the Muslim Brotherhood rule,


and it was not taking sides. Until the demonstrations happened and


they have seen the massive population on the streets. If they


did not take sides with the Egyptians we would have turned


against the army. So it is definitely not a coup. I'm really


surprised by the west and the western media, not the BBC, but I'm


really surprised with having so much correspondents here and we are


still hearing this kind of military coup. The military is the


prospector of the nation and the peace and the calm of the society


in Egypt which is not only sporpbt to Egypt but it is important to the


-- important to Egypt but to the world. What do you call it begin a


democratically-elected President is put out of power by the army. What


do you call it? Well the Nazis were elected and the Duche in Italy, and


they were ougsed and the Germans and Italians had a change -- ousted


and the Germans and Italians had a change of heart. What more could


you require from people by going into the streets in their millions


asking for the President to step down. And he did not give a single


concession during the whole year. Even Mubarak started giving


concessions. He changed the Government, he changed the


constitution, he banned his son from the National Democratic Party


and he said himself he would not bid again for the presidency.


Talking about Morsi...Let's Look ahead, if we may. The army are


making it known tonight that they have a plan, they say, for within


four months some sort of referendum on a constitution, parliamentary


elections, presidential elections after that. How seriously do you


think we should take that? should take it very seriously


because, first of all, it is not the military plan, it is the consen


Qus between the military and the -- consensus between the military and


political powers in Egypt. They have done it before. Why not


referring back to the 25th January. It was the same situation. We went


down in the streets and shouted "we don't want you Mubarak", so the


army stepped over and said, Mr President, please go. They started


declaring a Road Map, and they were extremely committed. They said they


would turn over the authority to a civilian entity and body by the


30th of June and they committed to every word, why should we doubt it?


Thank you very much indeed. Unfortunately we are una ibl to


cross to the Muslim Brotherhood -- unable to cross toe the Muslim


Brotherhood spokesman in Cairo. Let's look at the crisis, it began


when the elections produced a Muslim Brotherhood Government,


which was brought into a crisis of legitimacy, which was aggravated by


an economic crisi. Whoever takes the country forward has to give


people not only of peace but also of prosperity and a sense of


beginning to feel better off. As Egypt turns so too does the


wheel on which Mohammed's livelihood depends. With children


to feed, his hands must continue to work on the clay. Others around the


country are razed in protest. The become is only a third of what it


was before Egypt's dictatorship was overthrown two years ago.


TRANSLATION: After the revolution sales went down so much. We don't


sell now, our pots are just sitting on the shelves. We used to deliver


to shops in Cairo every month, we did exhibitions for embassies, we


exported to Italy, Holland, Morocco. Since the revolution it is no


longer safe here, so tourists are afraid to come. Mohammed's dusty


village, Tunis, two-and-a-half hours from Cairo was gent trified a


little as Egypt's middle-class widened in the last few years of


President Mubarak. You don't see much of that now or the foreigners


who came here. The revolution is to blame. This feels a long way from


Tahrir Square, however people here travel regularly to the capital for


the protests. Egypt, at all levels of society is an intensely


political country. People have to earn and living and here that is


not easy. The economy slowed almost to a halt. With unemployment


possibly as high as 20%, rising inflation and dangerously low


levels of foreign reserves. Back in Cairo I have come to meet a


man who can help put things right. This is the billionare tycoon who


connected Egyptians by starting the country's first mobile phone


company. I have no remind people why we are here. Telecoms is the


most important thing. He and his family are Egypt's largest private


employers. This is a picture of post-January what people felt.


welcomed the 2011 revolution, but left the country after the Muslim


Brotherhood's Mohamed Morsi was elected President last year. Now


he's back to repair the damage, he says, the Brotherhood did. Very bad


management and they frightened all the investors out of the country,


especially the Egyptians. I can tell you I'm not proud of that, but


for two-and-a-half years I personally haven't invested a penny


here. I didn't even want to change my old TV in my house! We have this


channel and another one. That is live. You can see that is Tahrir


Square now. But he doesn't just own TVs he owns TV stations. This one


helped encourage the mass protests on Tahrir Square, that led to the


toppling of Morsi and are still rolling on. He now wants stability


so that the IMF and other lenders will step in to save the country.


Now we need to have an injection that will give us one year to


restructure our economy. So we are now foreign reserves depleted, we


would need $15-$20 billion that will take us for another 18 month


and give us time to reorganise ourselves. We need to have an end


to these demonstrations and the split in the society. What Egypt


needs, even beyond democracy, is water.


The water of course comes from the Nile. Pumped to the village of


Tunis by an intricate system of canals. It is subsidised and the


state needs cash it hasn't got to give the fuel to get it there.


Farmers like this say they don't benefit from the subsidy any way.


The sesame field is parched because often he can't afford to pump the


water. TRANSLATION: Every petrol station has a certain amount of


diesel, sometimes they do not get the right amount, even when they do


the owner of the station sells it on the black market at three-times


the subsidised price. That is happening entirely because the


President can't control the country and no-one is doing their job


properly. Half of all Egyptians survive below or just above the


official poverty line. A loan worth nearly $5 billion was offered by


the IMF, but only if subsidies on bread and cooking gas and diesel


were reduced. The Muslim Brotherhood Government didn't dare


agree, fearing the people's wrath. We have just been out, for example,


into the provinces, we have been out there and found a farmer who


complains he can no longer get diesel at subsidised prices. He


wants subsidised fuel? Yeah, because all the people steal it and


sell it on the black market. That is exactly it. There is no need to


subsidise it. He's not happy with it at the higher price, he wants it


at the lower price and he can't survive unless it is at the lower


price? He's also not allowed to sell his production on the free


market price. Everything is done outside of that. Egypt inherited


this socialist system during Nasr, when Mubarak came and they tried to


change it but still very many residuals from the socialist system


remained. These why your medals? But Egypt's economy won't work


until the politics do. A tycoon like this is a political player too.


He has been involved in discussions on a new Government. There is no


place like home. Even as Egypt seems more divided than ever, he


wants Islamists included. They should reach out the hand for the


Islamists, for the Muslim Brotherhood, we should reach out


for them, we shouldn't go into a persecution or revenge state, we


have to accommodate them back and talk sense to them and cool them


down and take them back into social. Down on Tahrir Square, as the anti-


-Morsi crowds gathered again this evening, there weren't many calls


for reconciliation with the Muslim Brotherhood. We don't need them.


The Muslim Brotherhood we don't need them from the beginning of


history. They are bloody people. But they represent many Egyptians?


They mislead them. They are liars. TRANSLATION: They have no political


future here in Egypt. No place politically. Their party should not


have weapons. We don't want Egypt to be like Syria. Last night's


violence appears only to have hardened views on both sides, and


the chances now of a peaceful way out of Egypt's crisis seem even


slimmer. Back in the village the hopes of progress to improve


everyday life will have to be put on hold for even longer.


How many bedrooms do you have at home? How many do you really need?


None of your business you might respond. If you are living on


benefits it is, or rather it is the business of officialdom, since


April as part of the the clampdown on the welfare bill, around 660,000


people living in social housing have been told they may only claim


benefit for what is judged to be an appropriate number of bedrooms. The


Government calls this clamping down on a spare bedroom subsidy. The


called bedroom tax is reckoned to be pretty popular in Daily Mail


land, because it seems to play to the idea that there are scroungers


all over the land living the life of Reilly at the tax-payers'


expense. Councils have been given �150 million to use at their


discretion, but it is hard to distinguish the deserving from the


called undeserving. See how hard news night has heard from -- we


have heard from some of the CAB cases in Coventry.


My brother Gordon originally moved in here with my mother in 2007. My


mum's health started to deteriorate around the same time. She had to


move out. That's why gord Dan has an extra -- Gordon has an extra


bedroom. Gordon is mentally and physically handicapped, he has


sight in only one eye. He suffers with epilepsy and his mobility is


not very good either. Did you not see Pat today?


don't wum in on a Wednesday, she's on her -- come in on a Wednesday,


she's on her course. Pretty much everything I do for Gordon, I do


all the cleaning, all his shopping. I cut his hair for him.


I take him out for meals and the odd pint, everything really. Have


you seen Dawn today? Yes.This is my brother's home, he has built a


life here over the past six years. He's near to his day centre, he's


near to me, my mother, he has a God doctor on the doorstep. It would be


a -- good doctor on the doorstep. It would be a real upheaval for him


to move. The extra room is �16 a week. It isn't a situation you


would want to go on too long, �16 a week over the course of a year is a


lot of money. With Gordon I'm trying to help him


get an extra payment because he has a shortfall in rent. It is called


the discretionary housing payment. We are supposed to have care in the


community and it is nice to see Gordon being able to live


independently. Because he's in a place where he's settled. He


couldn't, any upheaval in his life, I think would be devastating for


him. It would cause health issues and make it worse. He gets


disability benefit, because of the welfare reform that is all changing.


His income could be reducing. If they don't accept the discretionary


housing payment he is still going to have to find money to keep a


roof over his head. After that what other options are there? I don't


know. There ain't really is there? There ain't, I don't think there is


any options? Apart from reapplying for it again, or you know does a


Since the 1st April we have probably had 200 people come in


concerned about underoccupancy or bedroom tax as it is called. The at


the mand is way exceeding the -- demand is way exceeding the


staffing we have got. The vast majority of people that have come


into us have been people largely with mental health issues or other


daiblts. Schizophrenia, depression and things like that. They are also


battling to try to ensure that they can maintain their disability


benefits. A lot are in high levels of debt. A reduction of �25 is a


real problem. This is probably one of the more brutal of reforms made.


It doesn't give people many options, it actually threatening some of the


security that they do actually have. It threatens the home they live in


and the communities that they live within. We have seen clients come


in who have been living in their house and brought up their families


and their home and have lived there for 40 years and then all of a


sudden they are having to possibly consider moving house, maybe moving


to another part of the city or another city all together to try to


find a smaller property of which there are very few. I would like to


see someone about the bedroom tax. I'm seeing people who have already


accumulated rent arrears because of the shortfall, some people just


haven't, they can't pay it. So the rent arrears are building up and


building up. They will end up with the house being taken off them. So


I don't see how it can save money when people are just going to be


homeless. I wanted something nice for her, we went out and bought


cheap wallpaper and painted the rest. We went and bought cheap


carpet and put it down and went to auctions to get furniture in the


room for when she came here. spare bedroom is for Sandra who is


my stepdaughter. My partner Paul's daughter. Sandra's in care and so


obviously they are very strict, the room has to look OK for her, she


needs her own bed. My ex-partner, she used to be violent towards her


and I actually went to the social services myself to have something


done about it. That's the reason why she went into care in the end.


When it first happened we could only see each other through contact


and that and take her out places and then it started to be overnight


once a month. She means the world to me, I would do anything for her.


I think if I just turned around and say you can't come over any more


because we have to move to a one- bedroom place and can't have a two-


bedroomed place she would be deaf vase tated. We are really close, we


have a -- devastated. We are really close and we have a strong bond,


and it might push her away thinking I don't want her. Obviously we were


in our Catch 22, we panicked, because it is a lot of money out of


our benefits, it is a lot of money. If we struggle so be it, Sandra has


to come first. I can't see any way out of this other than when I start


work. And then it won't affect us. I'm hoping to get a job myself, I'm


looking at factory work, driving work, cleaning work. I send off


every week for at least six, seven jobs. I didn't need a push, before


this bedroom tax came in, I'm half way through my foundation degree. I


have been working to get myself into a good place to get back into


work. I want to get out of the system, it is horrible. It is


making it tougher. We have been making cut backs and now we have to


make more, we have to be careful what we eat. Spaghetti Bolognese,


you need the money to eat that, we shop at the cheapest shop we can


find and get the cheapest brands we can find. They are the only


cutbacks we can physically make is the food. About a quarter of people


coming to see us about bedroom tax are seeing us because they need


their extra room, they have a child they care for or joint custody with,


and that child might live with them three days a week, because they are


not the parent that claims child benefit they are subject to the


underoccupancy rules. But the thing with this policy is it looks like


people have a choice. It has been badged as people have a choice but


they really don't have a choice at all. They either have to move out


of their home if they can, but they probably can't, so they have to


deal with the reduction in incomes. Ultimately the bottom line with


this is people have to survive and people have to eat. These reforms


have happened and they are here we now have to work with what we have


got. Our job as a CAB has been to try to become a bit more practical


in how we support people through these changes. So that they don't


have the problems further down the line and hopefully fewer people


then will need to join the queue at the CAB on a Monday morning because


they are at risk of losing their home. We are trying something very


different in that we have decided to build a mock-up flat in the


bureau to try to help people with some very practical skills around


how they manage their money. The idea is new tenants will come in


and we can help them learn a lot of things people take for granted, how


to read a metre, affordable furniture, setting up utility


accounts, understanding what APR is, and getting people off on the right


foot. This is our real-life, functioning training facility,


kitchen. If I can just take you into the living room area...Last


August I was in a council flat in Stowbridge, because of debts and


unemployment I walked out on my council flat. So I got a night


coach to Brighton and I had a with me just in case. So I found a place


behind the Palace in Brighton and I stayed in the tent for three weeks.


I had to rely on the food banks for meals. Sometimes I had to starve


most of the day because there was no food. You can furnish your new


home to a reasonable standard without breaking the bank. The last


nine month has been a nightmare really. Andrew was in a hostel


which catered specifically for people with alcohol and drug


addiction problems. Andrew himself isn't a substance misuser he found


that it wasn't the ideal place to be situated and located. He was


quite lonely and he didn't receive any support, essentially he was put


there and left to his own devices. We will be running cooking classes.


Financially I lived on �10 a fortnight after my bills and junk


food most of the time, or even living on biscuit as well.


aware you need specific support on budgeting and banking. I have been


out of work now for over ten years, I have done casual work. I have


retail skills, fundraising skills, I have done gardening, warehouse,


you want to work, I'm 51, I'm worried that in another two years I


will be still on benefits. I have no friends that I know apart from


church friends, family, I have a sister somewhere, I don't know


where she is, I know where she is in Birmingham, I lost contact with


her 20 years ago. I lost my father in 2000 and I didn't know until I


got back to Coventry that he died. We give the clients a start-up pack


which consists of a number of household goods that you would take


for granted and these items, although they are not of


significant monetary value, for our clients they are a huge help. He


has managed to secure a place from the local Housing Association and


you know it will give him that level of independent that personal


sort of space. Yesterday they gave me the keys to move in, it has been,


it last been great because it is the first time I have had a decent


night's sleep. Even though I'm sleeping on the floor at the moment.


I'm getting the help hopefully with grants and through the church as


well. But it is a new start for me. I was overjoyed when I saw it, it


is bigger than I thought it was, it is fantastic, just the peace and


quiet as well. It is amazing. It gives you your identity back. Being


homeless is very depressing, not knowing what will happen in the


next week. It has been a long process for me, really. It has


taken nine months to get here, but I'm here, I'm very grateful.


Harriet Baldwin is a Conservative MP and aide to one of the ministers


in the Department for Work and Pensions, responsible for the


introduction of the called bedroom tax. Are you embarrassed by any of


those cases we heard about, victims of the bedroom tax? This is, as you


know, we prefer to call it the "spare room subsidy", I think we


should highlight the fantastic work the CAB does across the country. In


those particular cases highlighted just now I do want to emphasise


where there is someone who has a daibltd, who needs a carer to spend


-- disability, who need a carer to spend the night or occasionally


give them care at night they will be allowed an extra bedroom. I want


to clarify that and put it on record. Noort of thoses there is


nothing to worry about? In the first case if I was advising I


would advise him to apply for a two bedroom allowance. What about the


court order where a parent should have contact with the father only


if the child is in a separate room and that is classified as falling


within the scope of what do you call the bedroom tax? A spare room


subsidy. That is nonsense, isn't it? The Point I would make is there


are 250,000 families not mentioned today living in overcrowded


accommodation. We have to make the best use of the social housing.


many households are living in places with surplus bedrooms?


a million surplus bedrooms in the country. And what we want to try to


do is for the two million families on the housing waiting list, the


250,000 families in overcrowded accommodation we want to make the


best use of that accommodation. want them to move to smaller


accommodation, so presumably you know how many one bedroom homes


were released on to the market last year do you? If you are in social


housing and your family expands and you have, for example, two


teenagers, one of boy and one a girl and they need an extra bedroom,


you are perfectly entitled to ask for that extra bedroom. We want to


make sure families can swap to make the best use of the housing stock.


What do you call it? The spare room surplus, and spare occupancy.


want people to move to smaller accommodation, do you know how many


single bedroom homes were released last year? You need to take into


account. Do you know that or not? We have families in one bedroom and


need to move to two bedroom. Do you know?, do you know? I don't have it.


There is 85,000. It will take a long time to get a million people


into those. There are families needing to move to a two bedroom


flat from a one bedroom flat. There is home direct swapping list, and


they can swap within the social housing list without losing


tendency rights. It is all going well is it? It is important we


point out for ordinary families that aren't within the benefits


system they have to make choices every day when their families split


up about what kind of housing they can afford in that situation.


the CAB is making a fuss about nothing? They are highlighting.


Really serious problems in the lives that people have had to do a


lot more difficult than you or I ever have had to do? Bear in mind


we will put in �380 million of discretionary housing payment. If


any of those people came to my advice surgery I would advise them


to apply for discretionary housing payment. There is an enormous


amount of money available. There is �150 million. In 2008 when the last


Government brought in the rulings for the private rented sector and


housing benefit. There was talk there wouldn't be enough housing


and the reforms went forward in good fashion. There are


disrecognitionry payments and it will take time but it needs to be


addressed. Thank you. It will doubtless be presented as another


clause IV moment, or extended essay, tomorrow the Labour leadership will


demonstrate it is getting on top of the party's relationship with the


trade unions. The Tories have been making hey for days play claiming


that Ed Miliband is a glove puppet manipulated by those who pay the


Labour Party's costs. Tonight he told MPs and peers that he would


reform the relationship, precisely what that will involve we will


learn tomorrow. Allegra Stratton might have a clue. What will


happen? He will announce he wants to move Labour to something called


"opting in with the union levy". Let me explain it in a second. If


he is successful in it, it could cost his party �9 million or �8


million, depending on the figures. We shouldn't dismiss it before the


speech. It is also something that if it comes to a natural conclusion


as being talked about this evening on phone calls I have had with some


Labour sources, it is also something that will see the link


between the unions and the Labour Party reavaiinged in the future in


a pro-- rearranged in the future in a profound way. How big a deal is


it? It is a big deal. When Christopher Kelly announced his


view for party funding, this was his idea. Ed Miliband has always


said he wouldn't do it. I should explain the idea. At the moment if


you are a member of the union you are automatically, they get some


information, but basically it is pretty much a done deal that your


money will go to the Labour Party. What they want to move towards is


you will get a bit more information, and if you want your money to go to


the Labour Party you opt-in. That is the system they want to move


towards. It could see them, that pot of money is around �8 million.


Thanks for that. Here to discuss Ed Miliband's speech is John Mann a


Labour MP and member of the Unite union. We are joined by Labour


party grandee Lord Prescott, are you impressed by it? It is a bold


move, if it gets the half a million more members it might do it could


be revolutionary. There is an if and a could in that? Of course


there is, you have to persuade people to join. It is bold. It


would be a change. A fairly radical change. But it is keeping the union


members and the unions in with the Labour Party rather than breaking.


John Prescott what do you think of this plan? I agree with what John


said, you can't say he's not making decisions. To be fair he's been


talking about this for two years. The new idea of the registered


supporters, they have already taken part in an election, 10% in the


Electoral College. Are we absolutely clear he has taken a


decision, or is he having an investigation to see whether these


ideas are feasible, it is different? As he said to the party


meeting and he will say tomorrow, le want to discuss these matters.


This is the moment -- he will want to discuss the matters. This is the


moment he wants to put the message out about the membership of


ordinary members. When I took part in the debate 20 years ago, one-


member, one-vote, that was highly controversial, followed by Clause I


v, but we got down to be bait and implemented changes and got on with


it. This is part of the change to do with party funding. Don't you


get the feeling this is him playing for time, there will be a big


inquiry and a bit of a proposal at the end of it, and who knows it


will be after the next election by then? I understand that he's also


going to be proposing the primaries in some situations. I had a primary


for the leadership and I had 10,000 people in my area, rather than the


200, 300 members of the Labour Party that most areas have voting.


You mean anyone will be able to come along and say whether they


want somebody to be a candidate or not? The Tories at the last


election pulled quite a coup by having a primary. We are not


talking about the Tories but your party? If we do the same thing by


involving vast numbers of people in our selections that's going to have


a positive impact. You have to be registered as a Labour Party


supporter as well as affiliated through the trade unions. It is


those that take part in the vote, not everybody. In the primaries


regarding London and only London they are looking how that would


work in the primary situation. It is radical movement, it is a man


showing, not just now, over the two years since his one-nation speech


he has been working out these flow things. It is not that radical if


you have to be a paid up party member or registered supporter, is


it? If you are going to lose possibly �8 million on the party


political funding that is a pretty bold move. What we have seen in


reactions from People Like Us and the spats that have gone on between


ourselves and some of the leaders of the unions, in those


circumstances we are going through the same controversy. It is easy to


avoid but as we found with one- member, one-vote, and Clause IV,


get on with the controversy, have the debate and settle down.


come out of it �8 million poorer? hope the Government would have to


re-think about its party funding, which was mentioned by Allegra. Let


us look then, because these are fundamental changes, no-one party


should have a lot more money. We have already said candidates will


be capped in the Labour Party. When I fought the deputy leadership it


cost me �10,000. Tony Blair was able to raise �100,000, that is


basically unfair, he will cap it. That is a radical point of view.


that why he won? It might be, maybe I wasn't good enough any way


Jeremy! That is minor detail. is important? It is, but having


fairness in elections is very important. If I can get 10,000


people to vote in a leadership primary in my constituents that


would be hugely positive. To bring in these active trade union members


into participation, this could have a huge been figures impact, not


just in the next few years, but in the longer term for the Labour


Party. And a radical change, John dominated Ed, and his people said


vote Dave, and he did. You can't fix mass participation. That is why


this is so potentially bold and radical. Absolutely.It is not just


fixing on the small side bits and pieces. A little change in response


to Falkirk, this is a much bolder move than I think people had ever


dreamed would happen. Bold, radical and courageous. Would he have done


it had it not been for the cuss that the Conservatives have been


able to make over the shenanigans in Falkirk? We have an inquiry


there, let's see the results of that. Why is he only getting around


it to it now? You do the questions, Jeremy, I will try the answers. At


the end of it he said at the party meeting tonight, he said the moment


has come because of all these difficulty. He has been arguing


them against the background, do you have them, do you not have them.


Now everybody agrees there is a major attack by the press and


indeed the Tory Party, and we need to put the package together,


something he has worked on for two years. This is a man with a bold,


radical position, not the way it has been positioned in the paper or


in the media. Do you think the unions should welcome this? Yes, I


do. Because the unions have been very poor at getting working-class


representatives in into parliament for a long time. We need to see a


much better array of backgrounds in parliament. This suits that process.


Thank you very much, it will be all over tomorrow morning's front


The person who electfied the nation yesterday by becoming the first


British man to win Wimbledon for 77 years was allowed into Downing


Street to bask in the glory of David Cameron, Ed Miliband and


others, he must have been so proud. The Pathe news reals have no record


of whether the last man to win, Fred Perry was high fanned by


Stanley Baldwin, but maybe the pipe was raised to him. Can Perry do it,


in three straight sets. Excitement at fever pitch. For 25 years no


eing lashman has won this xet -- Englishman has won this competition.


So Fred Perry is Wimbledon champion. The only Englishman to win in 50


years. There has never been another The warmest day for Scotland and


Northern Ireland on Monday. For Tuesday we start off with mist and


low cloud across central England, burning back to North Sea coastal


areas. Keeping thicker cloud across northern Scotland. For Northern


Ireland perhaps not as warm as on Monday, still the low 20s on


Tuesday afternoon. Much more overcast in the norp and Western


Isles with the odd spot of rain or drizzle.


Mist and low cloud could be clearing the coastline keeping


temperatures down. We are much more hopeful of the cloud burning away


to give more sunshine for north- east England and Lincolnshire. Many


southern counties continuing with the hot and spuny weather over the


last few -- sunny weather over the last few days. For Cardiff 25 with


the sunshine taking over come the afternoon across Wales. If we look


The crisis in Egypt deepens. Is the economy to blame? Will Ed Miliband get heavy with the unions? And who are the hidden victims of welfare reform? With Jeremy Paxman.

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