08/07/2013 Newsnight


08/07/2013

The crisis in Egypt deepens. Is the economy to blame? Will Ed Miliband get heavy with the unions? And who are the hidden victims of welfare reform? With Jeremy Paxman.


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supports the army, but the square below me belongs to tens of

:00:35.:00:38.

thousands of Muslim Brotherhood supporters.

:00:38.:00:44.

We will try to find out with the help of both sides. And then this.

:00:44.:00:49.

She means the world to me, I would do anything for her. The called

:00:49.:00:57.

bedroom tax may look a pret -- a pretty straight forward hit at

:00:57.:01:01.

benefits issues, but the reality may be more complex. If I turn

:01:01.:01:04.

around and say to her you can't come over any more because we have

:01:04.:01:09.

to move to a one-bedroom place, she would be devastated and maybe push

:01:09.:01:13.

her away. Ed Miliband has let it be known that he has a speech in his

:01:13.:01:23.
:01:23.:01:24.

back pocket the unions may not like much, we will take a peek. Last

:01:24.:01:28.

week it underwent a military coup, tonight the most important country

:01:28.:01:32.

in the Arab world may be on the brink of civil war. It may even be

:01:32.:01:36.

that what happened in Cairo at dawn today was the start of that war.

:01:36.:01:41.

Over 50 people were killed and over 400 wounded in an incident which

:01:41.:01:45.

supporters of deposed President Morsi are blaming on the army,

:01:46.:01:50.

which unseated him last week, and soldiers say was set off by

:01:50.:01:57.

terrorists. Let as first go to Cairo.

:01:57.:02:05.

I'm on the roof of a mosque, and below me is the camp of pro-Morsi

:02:05.:02:08.

supporters here in Cairo, thousands of gathering more through the

:02:08.:02:12.

course of the day. Roaring their defiance as you can hear. They have

:02:12.:02:16.

said they won't leave here until their President is reinstated or

:02:16.:02:19.

until they are forcibly dispersed. The road leading out of this square

:02:19.:02:26.

behind me is the road that leads to the presidential Guards Club, where

:02:26.:02:32.

more than 50 people were killed last night. Down that road today in

:02:32.:02:34.

successive waves Brotherhood supporters have tried to push. They

:02:34.:02:39.

have been pushed back by the army. Today they are using only teargas.

:02:39.:02:43.

If there has been less violence today, the rhetoric is really going

:02:43.:02:48.

up. Today for example the Brotherhood's main political party

:02:48.:02:52.

called specifically for an uprising and on the other side it is clear

:02:52.:02:56.

that the authorities are trying to pin the blame for last night's

:02:56.:02:59.

bloodshed squarely on the Brotherhood itself.S they closed

:02:59.:03:05.

down the offices of the Brotherhood's faert, Freedom of

:03:06.:03:10.

Justice, because they say guns were found inside it. It will be harder

:03:10.:03:19.

and harder to make any conclusion with Islamists, even the our

:03:19.:03:24.

Islamist party has withdrawn from talks from Government. Very hard to

:03:24.:03:28.

see how an interim Government of the kind that has left can be

:03:28.:03:35.

formed. Mark Urban here. Last Weir it was all Tahrir Square, Tim is in

:03:35.:03:41.

another square? The mosque he was talking about behind him, is part

:03:41.:03:47.

of the epicentre of it. All confined to a small area of eastern

:03:47.:03:51.

Cairo. There is the mosque where Tim was, street that runs north of

:03:51.:03:56.

there is the one he was referring to, up and down which there has

:03:56.:04:02.

been so much trouble. Up at the other end of it is the Republican

:04:02.:04:08.

Guard Officers' Club. When rumours went out late last week that ex-

:04:08.:04:12.

President Morsi had been detained in there, the protestors walked up

:04:12.:04:18.

the street and this is where the incidents where people were killed

:04:18.:04:24.

and Jeremy Bowen and others were hit with buck shot. The protestors

:04:24.:04:30.

were forced back down this street and before dawn the incident

:04:30.:04:35.

unfolded. The supporters said people were shot while at prayer,

:04:35.:04:38.

an emosive allegation, the army said they were attacked by

:04:38.:04:42.

terrorists. Independent people said they had seen plain clothes people,

:04:42.:04:47.

security men or hired thugs firing at the crowd. Pretty soon dozens of

:04:47.:04:51.

people had been hit, whoever started it was clear that these

:04:51.:04:56.

people were being carried back down the street, back to the Rabaa

:04:56.:05:01.

mosque, where they were being treated in a mix shift triage. How

:05:01.:05:05.

many people were hit all together? By lunchtime the Muslim Brotherhood

:05:05.:05:10.

was saying that 51 people had been killed in this incident. The

:05:10.:05:15.

Ambulance Service in Cairo were saying over 40, but the clashes

:05:15.:05:20.

went on the street throughout the afternoon. In fact, if we look at

:05:20.:05:25.

another place, almost a third of the way down the street, between

:05:25.:05:32.

the Officers' Club and the mosque, where it is circled, further

:05:32.:05:38.

incidents took place. This footage shots a member of the security

:05:38.:05:41.

shows a member of the security forces with a gun in his hand, you

:05:41.:05:47.

can see it jump in his hand. But down on the street you can see

:05:47.:05:53.

casualties being carried away. Both sides were agreed that more than 50

:05:53.:05:57.

were dead and 500 wounded. What are the political implications of all

:05:58.:06:01.

of this? It is all seen enormous, as the news of this was broking

:06:01.:06:10.

this morning, people were talking about civil war. The all near party

:06:10.:06:20.

had gone along -- the All Noor party had gone along with it, they

:06:20.:06:26.

are Salafists, they withdrew today. The Brotherhood were calling for an

:06:26.:06:30.

uprising. This evening we saw the army briefing bringing outlines

:06:30.:06:33.

about the return to democracy. Trying to ride the tide of popular

:06:33.:06:36.

feeling and get the situation back under control. The version they

:06:36.:06:40.

briefed out, this is not confirmed, is that within two weeks a panel

:06:40.:06:44.

will sit down to try to rewrite the constitution, we have been here

:06:44.:06:48.

before. In four months the new constitution will be voted upon by

:06:48.:06:54.

a referendum of the people. Two weeks after that parliamentary

:06:54.:06:57.

election and another two weeks presidential elections. That is the

:06:57.:07:06.

version they are giving out to keep a lid on this. In Tahrir Square is

:07:06.:07:10.

Egypt's deputy Culture Minister when Morsi came to power last

:07:10.:07:15.

August. We hope to be joined by a spokesman for the Muslim

:07:15.:07:20.

Brotherhood. But let me speak to you first in

:07:20.:07:30.
:07:30.:07:31.

Tahrir Square. Does this begin to look like civil war to you? It is

:07:31.:07:41.
:07:41.:07:45.

definitely not civil war. The civilians and liberals are seeing

:07:45.:07:51.

it as terrorism, with an uprising with the lowest head count of 17

:07:51.:07:55.

million going on to the streets. And the highest head count is 33

:07:55.:07:58.

million. If something like that happens in the UK it suggests that

:07:58.:08:02.

David Cameron will step down immediately. It does make you

:08:03.:08:07.

wonder, when you have shots being exchanged between different

:08:07.:08:15.

political factions, it does make you wonder what is the difference

:08:15.:08:20.

between that and civil war? It will never be a civil war, Egyptians, by

:08:20.:08:25.

nature, even the Muslim Brotherhood are staying at home and not on the

:08:25.:08:30.

streets and are peaceful. Egypt is not Syria, it is not Libya, we're

:08:30.:08:34.

very peaceful by nature. So it is never going to happen. And the

:08:34.:08:41.

people who are trying to portray what happened starting on the 1st

:08:41.:08:46.

of June until the 8th of July as a coup is totally wrong. The military

:08:46.:08:50.

was totally unbiased during the year of the Muslim Brotherhood rule,

:08:50.:08:55.

and it was not taking sides. Until the demonstrations happened and

:08:55.:09:00.

they have seen the massive population on the streets. If they

:09:00.:09:03.

did not take sides with the Egyptians we would have turned

:09:03.:09:09.

against the army. So it is definitely not a coup. I'm really

:09:09.:09:14.

surprised by the west and the western media, not the BBC, but I'm

:09:14.:09:19.

really surprised with having so much correspondents here and we are

:09:19.:09:24.

still hearing this kind of military coup. The military is the

:09:24.:09:29.

prospector of the nation and the peace and the calm of the society

:09:29.:09:32.

in Egypt which is not only sporpbt to Egypt but it is important to the

:09:32.:09:41.

-- important to Egypt but to the world. What do you call it begin a

:09:41.:09:45.

democratically-elected President is put out of power by the army. What

:09:45.:09:55.
:09:55.:09:57.

do you call it? Well the Nazis were elected and the Duche in Italy, and

:09:57.:10:01.

they were ougsed and the Germans and Italians had a change -- ousted

:10:01.:10:04.

and the Germans and Italians had a change of heart. What more could

:10:04.:10:07.

you require from people by going into the streets in their millions

:10:07.:10:13.

asking for the President to step down. And he did not give a single

:10:13.:10:17.

concession during the whole year. Even Mubarak started giving

:10:17.:10:20.

concessions. He changed the Government, he changed the

:10:20.:10:25.

constitution, he banned his son from the National Democratic Party

:10:25.:10:30.

and he said himself he would not bid again for the presidency.

:10:30.:10:34.

Talking about Morsi...Let's Look ahead, if we may. The army are

:10:34.:10:38.

making it known tonight that they have a plan, they say, for within

:10:38.:10:43.

four months some sort of referendum on a constitution, parliamentary

:10:43.:10:46.

elections, presidential elections after that. How seriously do you

:10:46.:10:51.

think we should take that? should take it very seriously

:10:51.:10:55.

because, first of all, it is not the military plan, it is the consen

:10:55.:10:59.

Qus between the military and the -- consensus between the military and

:10:59.:11:04.

political powers in Egypt. They have done it before. Why not

:11:04.:11:08.

referring back to the 25th January. It was the same situation. We went

:11:08.:11:12.

down in the streets and shouted "we don't want you Mubarak", so the

:11:12.:11:19.

army stepped over and said, Mr President, please go. They started

:11:19.:11:24.

declaring a Road Map, and they were extremely committed. They said they

:11:24.:11:29.

would turn over the authority to a civilian entity and body by the

:11:29.:11:33.

30th of June and they committed to every word, why should we doubt it?

:11:33.:11:37.

Thank you very much indeed. Unfortunately we are una ibl to

:11:37.:11:40.

cross to the Muslim Brotherhood -- unable to cross toe the Muslim

:11:40.:11:47.

Brotherhood spokesman in Cairo. Let's look at the crisis, it began

:11:47.:11:50.

when the elections produced a Muslim Brotherhood Government,

:11:50.:11:56.

which was brought into a crisis of legitimacy, which was aggravated by

:11:56.:12:00.

an economic crisi. Whoever takes the country forward has to give

:12:00.:12:04.

people not only of peace but also of prosperity and a sense of

:12:04.:12:12.

beginning to feel better off. As Egypt turns so too does the

:12:12.:12:19.

wheel on which Mohammed's livelihood depends. With children

:12:19.:12:23.

to feed, his hands must continue to work on the clay. Others around the

:12:23.:12:28.

country are razed in protest. The become is only a third of what it

:12:28.:12:33.

was before Egypt's dictatorship was overthrown two years ago.

:12:33.:12:38.

TRANSLATION: After the revolution sales went down so much. We don't

:12:38.:12:41.

sell now, our pots are just sitting on the shelves. We used to deliver

:12:41.:12:46.

to shops in Cairo every month, we did exhibitions for embassies, we

:12:46.:12:50.

exported to Italy, Holland, Morocco. Since the revolution it is no

:12:50.:12:57.

longer safe here, so tourists are afraid to come. Mohammed's dusty

:12:57.:13:03.

village, Tunis, two-and-a-half hours from Cairo was gent trified a

:13:03.:13:09.

little as Egypt's middle-class widened in the last few years of

:13:09.:13:14.

President Mubarak. You don't see much of that now or the foreigners

:13:14.:13:24.
:13:24.:13:27.

who came here. The revolution is to blame. This feels a long way from

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Tahrir Square, however people here travel regularly to the capital for

:13:31.:13:36.

the protests. Egypt, at all levels of society is an intensely

:13:36.:13:40.

political country. People have to earn and living and here that is

:13:40.:13:43.

not easy. The economy slowed almost to a halt. With unemployment

:13:43.:13:47.

possibly as high as 20%, rising inflation and dangerously low

:13:47.:13:53.

levels of foreign reserves. Back in Cairo I have come to meet a

:13:53.:14:00.

man who can help put things right. This is the billionare tycoon who

:14:00.:14:03.

connected Egyptians by starting the country's first mobile phone

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company. I have no remind people why we are here. Telecoms is the

:14:13.:14:18.

most important thing. He and his family are Egypt's largest private

:14:18.:14:24.

employers. This is a picture of post-January what people felt.

:14:24.:14:28.

welcomed the 2011 revolution, but left the country after the Muslim

:14:28.:14:32.

Brotherhood's Mohamed Morsi was elected President last year. Now

:14:32.:14:37.

he's back to repair the damage, he says, the Brotherhood did. Very bad

:14:37.:14:42.

management and they frightened all the investors out of the country,

:14:42.:14:47.

especially the Egyptians. I can tell you I'm not proud of that, but

:14:47.:14:50.

for two-and-a-half years I personally haven't invested a penny

:14:50.:14:59.

here. I didn't even want to change my old TV in my house! We have this

:14:59.:15:04.

channel and another one. That is live. You can see that is Tahrir

:15:04.:15:12.

Square now. But he doesn't just own TVs he owns TV stations. This one

:15:12.:15:15.

helped encourage the mass protests on Tahrir Square, that led to the

:15:15.:15:18.

toppling of Morsi and are still rolling on. He now wants stability

:15:18.:15:24.

so that the IMF and other lenders will step in to save the country.

:15:24.:15:30.

Now we need to have an injection that will give us one year to

:15:30.:15:35.

restructure our economy. So we are now foreign reserves depleted, we

:15:35.:15:41.

would need $15-$20 billion that will take us for another 18 month

:15:41.:15:46.

and give us time to reorganise ourselves. We need to have an end

:15:46.:15:53.

to these demonstrations and the split in the society. What Egypt

:15:53.:15:56.

needs, even beyond democracy, is water.

:15:56.:16:02.

The water of course comes from the Nile. Pumped to the village of

:16:02.:16:12.
:16:12.:16:13.

Tunis by an intricate system of canals. It is subsidised and the

:16:13.:16:17.

state needs cash it hasn't got to give the fuel to get it there.

:16:18.:16:21.

Farmers like this say they don't benefit from the subsidy any way.

:16:21.:16:26.

The sesame field is parched because often he can't afford to pump the

:16:26.:16:31.

water. TRANSLATION: Every petrol station has a certain amount of

:16:31.:16:35.

diesel, sometimes they do not get the right amount, even when they do

:16:35.:16:41.

the owner of the station sells it on the black market at three-times

:16:41.:16:43.

the subsidised price. That is happening entirely because the

:16:43.:16:48.

President can't control the country and no-one is doing their job

:16:48.:16:52.

properly. Half of all Egyptians survive below or just above the

:16:52.:16:58.

official poverty line. A loan worth nearly $5 billion was offered by

:16:58.:17:03.

the IMF, but only if subsidies on bread and cooking gas and diesel

:17:03.:17:06.

were reduced. The Muslim Brotherhood Government didn't dare

:17:06.:17:09.

agree, fearing the people's wrath. We have just been out, for example,

:17:09.:17:16.

into the provinces, we have been out there and found a farmer who

:17:16.:17:22.

complains he can no longer get diesel at subsidised prices. He

:17:22.:17:27.

wants subsidised fuel? Yeah, because all the people steal it and

:17:27.:17:31.

sell it on the black market. That is exactly it. There is no need to

:17:31.:17:35.

subsidise it. He's not happy with it at the higher price, he wants it

:17:35.:17:38.

at the lower price and he can't survive unless it is at the lower

:17:38.:17:43.

price? He's also not allowed to sell his production on the free

:17:44.:17:48.

market price. Everything is done outside of that. Egypt inherited

:17:48.:17:54.

this socialist system during Nasr, when Mubarak came and they tried to

:17:54.:18:00.

change it but still very many residuals from the socialist system

:18:00.:18:04.

remained. These why your medals? But Egypt's economy won't work

:18:04.:18:10.

until the politics do. A tycoon like this is a political player too.

:18:10.:18:14.

He has been involved in discussions on a new Government. There is no

:18:14.:18:18.

place like home. Even as Egypt seems more divided than ever, he

:18:18.:18:23.

wants Islamists included. They should reach out the hand for the

:18:23.:18:26.

Islamists, for the Muslim Brotherhood, we should reach out

:18:26.:18:31.

for them, we shouldn't go into a persecution or revenge state, we

:18:31.:18:34.

have to accommodate them back and talk sense to them and cool them

:18:34.:18:40.

down and take them back into social. Down on Tahrir Square, as the anti-

:18:40.:18:43.

-Morsi crowds gathered again this evening, there weren't many calls

:18:43.:18:48.

for reconciliation with the Muslim Brotherhood. We don't need them.

:18:48.:18:52.

The Muslim Brotherhood we don't need them from the beginning of

:18:52.:18:57.

history. They are bloody people. But they represent many Egyptians?

:18:57.:19:07.
:19:07.:19:08.

They mislead them. They are liars. TRANSLATION: They have no political

:19:08.:19:13.

future here in Egypt. No place politically. Their party should not

:19:13.:19:17.

have weapons. We don't want Egypt to be like Syria. Last night's

:19:17.:19:21.

violence appears only to have hardened views on both sides, and

:19:22.:19:26.

the chances now of a peaceful way out of Egypt's crisis seem even

:19:26.:19:31.

slimmer. Back in the village the hopes of progress to improve

:19:31.:19:36.

everyday life will have to be put on hold for even longer.

:19:37.:19:40.

How many bedrooms do you have at home? How many do you really need?

:19:40.:19:44.

None of your business you might respond. If you are living on

:19:44.:19:48.

benefits it is, or rather it is the business of officialdom, since

:19:48.:19:53.

April as part of the the clampdown on the welfare bill, around 660,000

:19:53.:19:56.

people living in social housing have been told they may only claim

:19:56.:20:01.

benefit for what is judged to be an appropriate number of bedrooms. The

:20:01.:20:06.

Government calls this clamping down on a spare bedroom subsidy. The

:20:06.:20:10.

called bedroom tax is reckoned to be pretty popular in Daily Mail

:20:10.:20:14.

land, because it seems to play to the idea that there are scroungers

:20:14.:20:18.

all over the land living the life of Reilly at the tax-payers'

:20:18.:20:23.

expense. Councils have been given �150 million to use at their

:20:23.:20:28.

discretion, but it is hard to distinguish the deserving from the

:20:28.:20:35.

called undeserving. See how hard news night has heard from -- we

:20:35.:20:44.

have heard from some of the CAB cases in Coventry.

:20:44.:20:50.

My brother Gordon originally moved in here with my mother in 2007. My

:20:50.:20:55.

mum's health started to deteriorate around the same time. She had to

:20:55.:21:00.

move out. That's why gord Dan has an extra -- Gordon has an extra

:21:00.:21:10.
:21:10.:21:13.

bedroom. Gordon is mentally and physically handicapped, he has

:21:13.:21:17.

sight in only one eye. He suffers with epilepsy and his mobility is

:21:17.:21:22.

not very good either. Did you not see Pat today?

:21:22.:21:27.

don't wum in on a Wednesday, she's on her -- come in on a Wednesday,

:21:27.:21:31.

she's on her course. Pretty much everything I do for Gordon, I do

:21:31.:21:38.

all the cleaning, all his shopping. I cut his hair for him.

:21:38.:21:47.

I take him out for meals and the odd pint, everything really. Have

:21:47.:21:52.

you seen Dawn today? Yes.This is my brother's home, he has built a

:21:52.:21:56.

life here over the past six years. He's near to his day centre, he's

:21:56.:22:01.

near to me, my mother, he has a God doctor on the doorstep. It would be

:22:01.:22:10.

a -- good doctor on the doorstep. It would be a real upheaval for him

:22:10.:22:13.

to move. The extra room is �16 a week. It isn't a situation you

:22:13.:22:18.

would want to go on too long, �16 a week over the course of a year is a

:22:18.:22:27.

lot of money. With Gordon I'm trying to help him

:22:27.:22:31.

get an extra payment because he has a shortfall in rent. It is called

:22:31.:22:35.

the discretionary housing payment. We are supposed to have care in the

:22:35.:22:38.

community and it is nice to see Gordon being able to live

:22:38.:22:42.

independently. Because he's in a place where he's settled. He

:22:42.:22:45.

couldn't, any upheaval in his life, I think would be devastating for

:22:45.:22:55.
:22:55.:22:56.

him. It would cause health issues and make it worse. He gets

:22:56.:23:00.

disability benefit, because of the welfare reform that is all changing.

:23:00.:23:04.

His income could be reducing. If they don't accept the discretionary

:23:04.:23:07.

housing payment he is still going to have to find money to keep a

:23:07.:23:17.

roof over his head. After that what other options are there? I don't

:23:17.:23:22.

know. There ain't really is there? There ain't, I don't think there is

:23:22.:23:29.

any options? Apart from reapplying for it again, or you know does a

:23:29.:23:39.
:23:39.:23:53.

Since the 1st April we have probably had 200 people come in

:23:53.:23:57.

concerned about underoccupancy or bedroom tax as it is called. The at

:23:57.:24:01.

the mand is way exceeding the -- demand is way exceeding the

:24:01.:24:05.

staffing we have got. The vast majority of people that have come

:24:05.:24:11.

into us have been people largely with mental health issues or other

:24:11.:24:14.

daiblts. Schizophrenia, depression and things like that. They are also

:24:14.:24:21.

battling to try to ensure that they can maintain their disability

:24:21.:24:26.

benefits. A lot are in high levels of debt. A reduction of �25 is a

:24:26.:24:36.
:24:36.:24:37.

real problem. This is probably one of the more brutal of reforms made.

:24:37.:24:42.

It doesn't give people many options, it actually threatening some of the

:24:42.:24:46.

security that they do actually have. It threatens the home they live in

:24:46.:24:49.

and the communities that they live within. We have seen clients come

:24:49.:24:53.

in who have been living in their house and brought up their families

:24:53.:24:57.

and their home and have lived there for 40 years and then all of a

:24:57.:25:01.

sudden they are having to possibly consider moving house, maybe moving

:25:01.:25:05.

to another part of the city or another city all together to try to

:25:05.:25:15.
:25:15.:25:15.

find a smaller property of which there are very few. I would like to

:25:15.:25:19.

see someone about the bedroom tax. I'm seeing people who have already

:25:20.:25:22.

accumulated rent arrears because of the shortfall, some people just

:25:22.:25:25.

haven't, they can't pay it. So the rent arrears are building up and

:25:25.:25:35.
:25:35.:25:37.

building up. They will end up with the house being taken off them. So

:25:37.:25:41.

I don't see how it can save money when people are just going to be

:25:41.:25:51.
:25:51.:25:52.

homeless. I wanted something nice for her, we went out and bought

:25:52.:25:57.

cheap wallpaper and painted the rest. We went and bought cheap

:25:57.:26:01.

carpet and put it down and went to auctions to get furniture in the

:26:01.:26:08.

room for when she came here. spare bedroom is for Sandra who is

:26:08.:26:17.

my stepdaughter. My partner Paul's daughter. Sandra's in care and so

:26:17.:26:22.

obviously they are very strict, the room has to look OK for her, she

:26:22.:26:30.

needs her own bed. My ex-partner, she used to be violent towards her

:26:30.:26:35.

and I actually went to the social services myself to have something

:26:35.:26:41.

done about it. That's the reason why she went into care in the end.

:26:41.:26:46.

When it first happened we could only see each other through contact

:26:46.:26:51.

and that and take her out places and then it started to be overnight

:26:51.:26:55.

once a month. She means the world to me, I would do anything for her.

:26:55.:27:00.

I think if I just turned around and say you can't come over any more

:27:00.:27:06.

because we have to move to a one- bedroom place and can't have a two-

:27:06.:27:09.

bedroomed place she would be deaf vase tated. We are really close, we

:27:09.:27:14.

have a -- devastated. We are really close and we have a strong bond,

:27:14.:27:20.

and it might push her away thinking I don't want her. Obviously we were

:27:20.:27:25.

in our Catch 22, we panicked, because it is a lot of money out of

:27:25.:27:31.

our benefits, it is a lot of money. If we struggle so be it, Sandra has

:27:31.:27:37.

to come first. I can't see any way out of this other than when I start

:27:37.:27:43.

work. And then it won't affect us. I'm hoping to get a job myself, I'm

:27:43.:27:47.

looking at factory work, driving work, cleaning work. I send off

:27:47.:27:52.

every week for at least six, seven jobs. I didn't need a push, before

:27:52.:28:01.

this bedroom tax came in, I'm half way through my foundation degree. I

:28:01.:28:04.

have been working to get myself into a good place to get back into

:28:05.:28:07.

work. I want to get out of the system, it is horrible. It is

:28:07.:28:17.
:28:17.:28:21.

making it tougher. We have been making cut backs and now we have to

:28:21.:28:25.

make more, we have to be careful what we eat. Spaghetti Bolognese,

:28:25.:28:30.

you need the money to eat that, we shop at the cheapest shop we can

:28:30.:28:34.

find and get the cheapest brands we can find. They are the only

:28:34.:28:44.
:28:44.:28:47.

cutbacks we can physically make is the food. About a quarter of people

:28:47.:28:51.

coming to see us about bedroom tax are seeing us because they need

:28:51.:28:56.

their extra room, they have a child they care for or joint custody with,

:28:56.:28:59.

and that child might live with them three days a week, because they are

:29:00.:29:04.

not the parent that claims child benefit they are subject to the

:29:04.:29:07.

underoccupancy rules. But the thing with this policy is it looks like

:29:07.:29:11.

people have a choice. It has been badged as people have a choice but

:29:11.:29:17.

they really don't have a choice at all. They either have to move out

:29:17.:29:21.

of their home if they can, but they probably can't, so they have to

:29:21.:29:27.

deal with the reduction in incomes. Ultimately the bottom line with

:29:27.:29:37.
:29:37.:29:42.

this is people have to survive and people have to eat. These reforms

:29:42.:29:45.

have happened and they are here we now have to work with what we have

:29:45.:29:49.

got. Our job as a CAB has been to try to become a bit more practical

:29:49.:29:53.

in how we support people through these changes. So that they don't

:29:53.:29:57.

have the problems further down the line and hopefully fewer people

:29:57.:30:01.

then will need to join the queue at the CAB on a Monday morning because

:30:02.:30:06.

they are at risk of losing their home. We are trying something very

:30:06.:30:10.

different in that we have decided to build a mock-up flat in the

:30:10.:30:14.

bureau to try to help people with some very practical skills around

:30:14.:30:22.

how they manage their money. The idea is new tenants will come in

:30:22.:30:27.

and we can help them learn a lot of things people take for granted, how

:30:27.:30:32.

to read a metre, affordable furniture, setting up utility

:30:32.:30:37.

accounts, understanding what APR is, and getting people off on the right

:30:37.:30:44.

foot. This is our real-life, functioning training facility,

:30:44.:30:49.

kitchen. If I can just take you into the living room area...Last

:30:49.:30:55.

August I was in a council flat in Stowbridge, because of debts and

:30:55.:31:00.

unemployment I walked out on my council flat. So I got a night

:31:00.:31:07.

coach to Brighton and I had a with me just in case. So I found a place

:31:07.:31:11.

behind the Palace in Brighton and I stayed in the tent for three weeks.

:31:11.:31:16.

I had to rely on the food banks for meals. Sometimes I had to starve

:31:17.:31:23.

most of the day because there was no food. You can furnish your new

:31:23.:31:27.

home to a reasonable standard without breaking the bank. The last

:31:27.:31:36.

nine month has been a nightmare really. Andrew was in a hostel

:31:36.:31:40.

which catered specifically for people with alcohol and drug

:31:40.:31:44.

addiction problems. Andrew himself isn't a substance misuser he found

:31:44.:31:50.

that it wasn't the ideal place to be situated and located. He was

:31:50.:31:54.

quite lonely and he didn't receive any support, essentially he was put

:31:54.:32:01.

there and left to his own devices. We will be running cooking classes.

:32:01.:32:06.

Financially I lived on �10 a fortnight after my bills and junk

:32:06.:32:11.

food most of the time, or even living on biscuit as well.

:32:11.:32:15.

aware you need specific support on budgeting and banking. I have been

:32:15.:32:20.

out of work now for over ten years, I have done casual work. I have

:32:20.:32:23.

retail skills, fundraising skills, I have done gardening, warehouse,

:32:23.:32:28.

you want to work, I'm 51, I'm worried that in another two years I

:32:28.:32:38.
:32:38.:32:41.

will be still on benefits. I have no friends that I know apart from

:32:41.:32:44.

church friends, family, I have a sister somewhere, I don't know

:32:44.:32:49.

where she is, I know where she is in Birmingham, I lost contact with

:32:49.:32:54.

her 20 years ago. I lost my father in 2000 and I didn't know until I

:32:54.:33:03.

got back to Coventry that he died. We give the clients a start-up pack

:33:03.:33:06.

which consists of a number of household goods that you would take

:33:07.:33:10.

for granted and these items, although they are not of

:33:10.:33:19.

significant monetary value, for our clients they are a huge help. He

:33:19.:33:22.

has managed to secure a place from the local Housing Association and

:33:23.:33:28.

you know it will give him that level of independent that personal

:33:28.:33:38.
:33:38.:33:38.

sort of space. Yesterday they gave me the keys to move in, it has been,

:33:38.:33:43.

it last been great because it is the first time I have had a decent

:33:43.:33:49.

night's sleep. Even though I'm sleeping on the floor at the moment.

:33:49.:33:53.

I'm getting the help hopefully with grants and through the church as

:33:53.:34:03.
:34:03.:34:05.

well. But it is a new start for me. I was overjoyed when I saw it, it

:34:05.:34:10.

is bigger than I thought it was, it is fantastic, just the peace and

:34:10.:34:20.
:34:20.:34:23.

quiet as well. It is amazing. It gives you your identity back. Being

:34:23.:34:30.

homeless is very depressing, not knowing what will happen in the

:34:30.:34:36.

next week. It has been a long process for me, really. It has

:34:36.:34:45.

taken nine months to get here, but I'm here, I'm very grateful.

:34:45.:34:50.

Harriet Baldwin is a Conservative MP and aide to one of the ministers

:34:50.:34:52.

in the Department for Work and Pensions, responsible for the

:34:52.:34:55.

introduction of the called bedroom tax. Are you embarrassed by any of

:34:55.:34:59.

those cases we heard about, victims of the bedroom tax? This is, as you

:34:59.:35:07.

know, we prefer to call it the "spare room subsidy", I think we

:35:07.:35:10.

should highlight the fantastic work the CAB does across the country. In

:35:10.:35:13.

those particular cases highlighted just now I do want to emphasise

:35:14.:35:18.

where there is someone who has a daibltd, who needs a carer to spend

:35:18.:35:22.

-- disability, who need a carer to spend the night or occasionally

:35:22.:35:26.

give them care at night they will be allowed an extra bedroom. I want

:35:26.:35:29.

to clarify that and put it on record. Noort of thoses there is

:35:29.:35:36.

nothing to worry about? In the first case if I was advising I

:35:36.:35:42.

would advise him to apply for a two bedroom allowance. What about the

:35:42.:35:45.

court order where a parent should have contact with the father only

:35:45.:35:50.

if the child is in a separate room and that is classified as falling

:35:50.:35:55.

within the scope of what do you call the bedroom tax? A spare room

:35:55.:36:04.

subsidy. That is nonsense, isn't it? The Point I would make is there

:36:04.:36:09.

are 250,000 families not mentioned today living in overcrowded

:36:09.:36:13.

accommodation. We have to make the best use of the social housing.

:36:13.:36:17.

many households are living in places with surplus bedrooms?

:36:17.:36:21.

a million surplus bedrooms in the country. And what we want to try to

:36:21.:36:26.

do is for the two million families on the housing waiting list, the

:36:26.:36:30.

250,000 families in overcrowded accommodation we want to make the

:36:30.:36:34.

best use of that accommodation. want them to move to smaller

:36:34.:36:37.

accommodation, so presumably you know how many one bedroom homes

:36:37.:36:41.

were released on to the market last year do you? If you are in social

:36:41.:36:46.

housing and your family expands and you have, for example, two

:36:46.:36:50.

teenagers, one of boy and one a girl and they need an extra bedroom,

:36:50.:36:56.

you are perfectly entitled to ask for that extra bedroom. We want to

:36:56.:36:59.

make sure families can swap to make the best use of the housing stock.

:36:59.:37:06.

What do you call it? The spare room surplus, and spare occupancy.

:37:06.:37:10.

want people to move to smaller accommodation, do you know how many

:37:11.:37:14.

single bedroom homes were released last year? You need to take into

:37:14.:37:19.

account. Do you know that or not? We have families in one bedroom and

:37:19.:37:24.

need to move to two bedroom. Do you know?, do you know? I don't have it.

:37:25.:37:30.

There is 85,000. It will take a long time to get a million people

:37:30.:37:34.

into those. There are families needing to move to a two bedroom

:37:34.:37:40.

flat from a one bedroom flat. There is home direct swapping list, and

:37:40.:37:45.

they can swap within the social housing list without losing

:37:45.:37:50.

tendency rights. It is all going well is it? It is important we

:37:50.:37:54.

point out for ordinary families that aren't within the benefits

:37:54.:37:57.

system they have to make choices every day when their families split

:37:57.:38:01.

up about what kind of housing they can afford in that situation.

:38:01.:38:05.

the CAB is making a fuss about nothing? They are highlighting.

:38:05.:38:08.

Really serious problems in the lives that people have had to do a

:38:08.:38:13.

lot more difficult than you or I ever have had to do? Bear in mind

:38:13.:38:17.

we will put in �380 million of discretionary housing payment. If

:38:17.:38:21.

any of those people came to my advice surgery I would advise them

:38:22.:38:25.

to apply for discretionary housing payment. There is an enormous

:38:25.:38:30.

amount of money available. There is �150 million. In 2008 when the last

:38:30.:38:35.

Government brought in the rulings for the private rented sector and

:38:35.:38:40.

housing benefit. There was talk there wouldn't be enough housing

:38:40.:38:48.

and the reforms went forward in good fashion. There are

:38:48.:38:51.

disrecognitionry payments and it will take time but it needs to be

:38:51.:38:59.

addressed. Thank you. It will doubtless be presented as another

:38:59.:39:04.

clause IV moment, or extended essay, tomorrow the Labour leadership will

:39:04.:39:07.

demonstrate it is getting on top of the party's relationship with the

:39:07.:39:12.

trade unions. The Tories have been making hey for days play claiming

:39:12.:39:16.

that Ed Miliband is a glove puppet manipulated by those who pay the

:39:16.:39:19.

Labour Party's costs. Tonight he told MPs and peers that he would

:39:19.:39:26.

reform the relationship, precisely what that will involve we will

:39:26.:39:29.

learn tomorrow. Allegra Stratton might have a clue. What will

:39:29.:39:34.

happen? He will announce he wants to move Labour to something called

:39:34.:39:39.

"opting in with the union levy". Let me explain it in a second. If

:39:39.:39:44.

he is successful in it, it could cost his party �9 million or �8

:39:44.:39:47.

million, depending on the figures. We shouldn't dismiss it before the

:39:47.:39:51.

speech. It is also something that if it comes to a natural conclusion

:39:51.:39:55.

as being talked about this evening on phone calls I have had with some

:39:55.:39:58.

Labour sources, it is also something that will see the link

:39:58.:40:04.

between the unions and the Labour Party reavaiinged in the future in

:40:04.:40:08.

a pro-- rearranged in the future in a profound way. How big a deal is

:40:09.:40:12.

it? It is a big deal. When Christopher Kelly announced his

:40:12.:40:15.

view for party funding, this was his idea. Ed Miliband has always

:40:15.:40:19.

said he wouldn't do it. I should explain the idea. At the moment if

:40:19.:40:22.

you are a member of the union you are automatically, they get some

:40:22.:40:25.

information, but basically it is pretty much a done deal that your

:40:25.:40:29.

money will go to the Labour Party. What they want to move towards is

:40:29.:40:33.

you will get a bit more information, and if you want your money to go to

:40:33.:40:36.

the Labour Party you opt-in. That is the system they want to move

:40:37.:40:41.

towards. It could see them, that pot of money is around �8 million.

:40:41.:40:46.

Thanks for that. Here to discuss Ed Miliband's speech is John Mann a

:40:46.:40:53.

Labour MP and member of the Unite union. We are joined by Labour

:40:53.:40:58.

party grandee Lord Prescott, are you impressed by it? It is a bold

:40:58.:41:05.

move, if it gets the half a million more members it might do it could

:41:05.:41:09.

be revolutionary. There is an if and a could in that? Of course

:41:09.:41:13.

there is, you have to persuade people to join. It is bold. It

:41:13.:41:19.

would be a change. A fairly radical change. But it is keeping the union

:41:19.:41:23.

members and the unions in with the Labour Party rather than breaking.

:41:23.:41:26.

John Prescott what do you think of this plan? I agree with what John

:41:26.:41:30.

said, you can't say he's not making decisions. To be fair he's been

:41:30.:41:34.

talking about this for two years. The new idea of the registered

:41:34.:41:39.

supporters, they have already taken part in an election, 10% in the

:41:39.:41:41.

Electoral College. Are we absolutely clear he has taken a

:41:41.:41:44.

decision, or is he having an investigation to see whether these

:41:44.:41:49.

ideas are feasible, it is different? As he said to the party

:41:49.:41:52.

meeting and he will say tomorrow, le want to discuss these matters.

:41:52.:41:55.

This is the moment -- he will want to discuss the matters. This is the

:41:55.:42:00.

moment he wants to put the message out about the membership of

:42:00.:42:04.

ordinary members. When I took part in the debate 20 years ago, one-

:42:04.:42:12.

member, one-vote, that was highly controversial, followed by Clause I

:42:12.:42:18.

v, but we got down to be bait and implemented changes and got on with

:42:18.:42:22.

it. This is part of the change to do with party funding. Don't you

:42:22.:42:25.

get the feeling this is him playing for time, there will be a big

:42:25.:42:29.

inquiry and a bit of a proposal at the end of it, and who knows it

:42:29.:42:32.

will be after the next election by then? I understand that he's also

:42:32.:42:37.

going to be proposing the primaries in some situations. I had a primary

:42:37.:42:43.

for the leadership and I had 10,000 people in my area, rather than the

:42:43.:42:47.

200, 300 members of the Labour Party that most areas have voting.

:42:47.:42:50.

You mean anyone will be able to come along and say whether they

:42:50.:42:55.

want somebody to be a candidate or not? The Tories at the last

:42:55.:42:59.

election pulled quite a coup by having a primary. We are not

:42:59.:43:03.

talking about the Tories but your party? If we do the same thing by

:43:03.:43:09.

involving vast numbers of people in our selections that's going to have

:43:09.:43:13.

a positive impact. You have to be registered as a Labour Party

:43:13.:43:15.

supporter as well as affiliated through the trade unions. It is

:43:15.:43:19.

those that take part in the vote, not everybody. In the primaries

:43:19.:43:22.

regarding London and only London they are looking how that would

:43:22.:43:26.

work in the primary situation. It is radical movement, it is a man

:43:26.:43:31.

showing, not just now, over the two years since his one-nation speech

:43:31.:43:35.

he has been working out these flow things. It is not that radical if

:43:35.:43:38.

you have to be a paid up party member or registered supporter, is

:43:39.:43:43.

it? If you are going to lose possibly �8 million on the party

:43:43.:43:47.

political funding that is a pretty bold move. What we have seen in

:43:47.:43:50.

reactions from People Like Us and the spats that have gone on between

:43:50.:43:53.

ourselves and some of the leaders of the unions, in those

:43:53.:43:57.

circumstances we are going through the same controversy. It is easy to

:43:57.:44:03.

avoid but as we found with one- member, one-vote, and Clause IV,

:44:03.:44:07.

get on with the controversy, have the debate and settle down.

:44:07.:44:11.

come out of it �8 million poorer? hope the Government would have to

:44:11.:44:15.

re-think about its party funding, which was mentioned by Allegra. Let

:44:15.:44:19.

us look then, because these are fundamental changes, no-one party

:44:19.:44:22.

should have a lot more money. We have already said candidates will

:44:22.:44:26.

be capped in the Labour Party. When I fought the deputy leadership it

:44:26.:44:31.

cost me �10,000. Tony Blair was able to raise �100,000, that is

:44:31.:44:36.

basically unfair, he will cap it. That is a radical point of view.

:44:37.:44:43.

that why he won? It might be, maybe I wasn't good enough any way

:44:43.:44:48.

Jeremy! That is minor detail. is important? It is, but having

:44:48.:44:51.

fairness in elections is very important. If I can get 10,000

:44:51.:44:55.

people to vote in a leadership primary in my constituents that

:44:55.:45:01.

would be hugely positive. To bring in these active trade union members

:45:01.:45:05.

into participation, this could have a huge been figures impact, not

:45:05.:45:10.

just in the next few years, but in the longer term for the Labour

:45:10.:45:15.

Party. And a radical change, John dominated Ed, and his people said

:45:15.:45:20.

vote Dave, and he did. You can't fix mass participation. That is why

:45:20.:45:25.

this is so potentially bold and radical. Absolutely.It is not just

:45:25.:45:30.

fixing on the small side bits and pieces. A little change in response

:45:31.:45:34.

to Falkirk, this is a much bolder move than I think people had ever

:45:34.:45:39.

dreamed would happen. Bold, radical and courageous. Would he have done

:45:39.:45:43.

it had it not been for the cuss that the Conservatives have been

:45:43.:45:47.

able to make over the shenanigans in Falkirk? We have an inquiry

:45:47.:45:51.

there, let's see the results of that. Why is he only getting around

:45:51.:45:56.

it to it now? You do the questions, Jeremy, I will try the answers. At

:45:56.:46:00.

the end of it he said at the party meeting tonight, he said the moment

:46:00.:46:03.

has come because of all these difficulty. He has been arguing

:46:03.:46:07.

them against the background, do you have them, do you not have them.

:46:07.:46:10.

Now everybody agrees there is a major attack by the press and

:46:10.:46:14.

indeed the Tory Party, and we need to put the package together,

:46:14.:46:19.

something he has worked on for two years. This is a man with a bold,

:46:19.:46:22.

radical position, not the way it has been positioned in the paper or

:46:22.:46:26.

in the media. Do you think the unions should welcome this? Yes, I

:46:26.:46:33.

do. Because the unions have been very poor at getting working-class

:46:33.:46:40.

representatives in into parliament for a long time. We need to see a

:46:40.:46:43.

much better array of backgrounds in parliament. This suits that process.

:46:43.:46:46.

Thank you very much, it will be all over tomorrow morning's front

:46:46.:46:56.
:46:56.:47:11.

The person who electfied the nation yesterday by becoming the first

:47:11.:47:16.

British man to win Wimbledon for 77 years was allowed into Downing

:47:16.:47:20.

Street to bask in the glory of David Cameron, Ed Miliband and

:47:20.:47:25.

others, he must have been so proud. The Pathe news reals have no record

:47:25.:47:31.

of whether the last man to win, Fred Perry was high fanned by

:47:31.:47:36.

Stanley Baldwin, but maybe the pipe was raised to him. Can Perry do it,

:47:36.:47:42.

in three straight sets. Excitement at fever pitch. For 25 years no

:47:42.:47:50.

eing lashman has won this xet -- Englishman has won this competition.

:47:50.:47:55.

So Fred Perry is Wimbledon champion. The only Englishman to win in 50

:47:55.:48:05.
:48:05.:48:05.

years. There has never been another The warmest day for Scotland and

:48:05.:48:10.

Northern Ireland on Monday. For Tuesday we start off with mist and

:48:10.:48:14.

low cloud across central England, burning back to North Sea coastal

:48:14.:48:19.

areas. Keeping thicker cloud across northern Scotland. For Northern

:48:19.:48:22.

Ireland perhaps not as warm as on Monday, still the low 20s on

:48:22.:48:26.

Tuesday afternoon. Much more overcast in the norp and Western

:48:26.:48:29.

Isles with the odd spot of rain or drizzle.

:48:29.:48:34.

Mist and low cloud could be clearing the coastline keeping

:48:34.:48:37.

temperatures down. We are much more hopeful of the cloud burning away

:48:37.:48:43.

to give more sunshine for north- east England and Lincolnshire. Many

:48:43.:48:47.

southern counties continuing with the hot and spuny weather over the

:48:47.:48:52.

last few -- sunny weather over the last few days. For Cardiff 25 with

:48:52.:48:57.

the sunshine taking over come the afternoon across Wales. If we look

:48:57.:49:07.
:49:07.:49:15.

The crisis in Egypt deepens. Is the economy to blame? Will Ed Miliband get heavy with the unions? And who are the hidden victims of welfare reform? With Jeremy Paxman.