24/07/2013 Newsnight


24/07/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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makes fun of. It is not Bernard Manning, it is not mustard, it is

:00:02.:00:07.

the ordinary people, the guy who changed the head gasket on my car

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the other week, he overcharged me, but that's fine.

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Good evening, here is the news, the good news, Andy Murray, the Ashes,

:00:20.:00:24.

a royal baby and a bit of sunshine. Tomorrow what are predicted to be

:00:24.:00:27.

better growth figures than first feared. Like the sun coming out at

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last, good second quarter GDP should cheer most of us up. The

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only problem is rather like the summer weather there may be

:00:36.:00:39.

thunderstorms ahead. Paul Mason has been trying to assess how strong

:00:39.:00:42.

the recovery might be, and whether, as the Government puts it, the

:00:42.:00:47.

economy is being rebalanced towards exports, industrial production and

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long-term investment, or are we repeating some of the mistakes of

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the past. Breakfast in Soho, London, at this cafe they know all about

:01:01.:01:06.

economic recovery. It is a pop-up business, using space in a late-

:01:06.:01:09.

night bar to serve English breakfast by day, on most days

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there is a queue. This is normally a bar, and I open at 10.00 and

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finish at 4.00, they start working at 4.00. What is the effect of

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doing that? It is using a space where they are already paying rent

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and bills whether they are open or closed. We are optimising on the

:01:26.:01:30.

space and making more money and it is great marketing for the business.

:01:30.:01:33.

It is a new clientele that we are attracting. And how is it doing?It

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is doing really well. We are Number Ten on Trip Visor out of 11,500

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restaurants in London. To you it look like carbohydrates, to

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economists this is great use of space, two firms, one space and

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more jobs. You are hiring? That is the bar hiring. One thing with

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hiring, which is amazing, you have got a lot more choice. So many

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people are looking for work. But you are getting a huge range of

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qualifications, a lot well overqualified because they are

:02:09.:02:13.

supplementing income with a second job. So London is buzzing, but two

:02:13.:02:17.

or three hours away from here the upturn doesn't look so sure. You

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can have breakfast, dinner and tea amid three very different economic

:02:20.:02:28.

stories. Which is what I'm about to do. This map shows the growth in

:02:28.:02:34.

Britain's regions and nations since 2007. The average is 6%, and the

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south-east and south-west, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, all

:02:37.:02:43.

grew by about that much. The underperformers were the north-east,

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North West, West Midlands, Yorkshire and Humber, and the East

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Midlands, that was below 3%. But London is in a different class,

:02:51.:02:58.

clocking up 12% growth, double the average. The recovery was supposed

:02:59.:03:03.

to be led by industry, and exports. But in Birmingham, where I'm headed

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now, they know all too well how weak that's been. BSA machine tools

:03:10.:03:15.

was once an iconic British giant, now it is down to 35 production

:03:15.:03:19.

workers. They are highly-skilled, but look closely and the age

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profile tells the story, apprentices, brand-new, the

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majority of the skilled work force over 60 and very few people

:03:26.:03:33.

inbetween. The boss, who remembers the factory in its hey day, tells

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me, over a working lunch, it is the shortage of skilled people that is

:03:36.:03:40.

holding back growth. Clearly if I haven't got the skills, then I'm

:03:40.:03:46.

not able to grow. In this area, in particular, the skills issue is

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major, we have got a skills gap where new apprentices coming

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through, probably won't get there before the older work force moves

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on. The other big issue is, of course, finance. This firm weaned

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itself off bank credit by cutting costs, delaying payments, now they

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are ready to grow again. But access to finance is becoming critical.

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enabled us to extract ourselves from the bank in terms of working

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capital. That's fine. A lot of companies have done that over time

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and are reticent to go back to the banks. The problem is we are

:04:21.:04:25.

looking to export, when you export you can't extract yourself from the

:04:25.:04:29.

bank. You need other facilities like documentary credits, letters

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of credit, downpayment guarantees and so on. So you can't get away

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from them all together. Even that can be difficult when you're

:04:36.:04:39.

exporting, and exporting of course is very important to us. And it is

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stuff like this that worries economists, the fact that we are

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facing capacity constraints, even with much of the economy just

:04:46.:04:51.

ticking over. What I have just seen there in Birmingham is a great

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example of what they call the output gap and the lack of it. That

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is when the economy starts to grow the worry is that there isn't

:04:59.:05:03.

enough spare capacity. That is ability to grow. And so even in

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quite promising circumstances what you get is a low growth recovery.

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The further away you get from London the more you start seeing

:05:12.:05:18.

the kind of excess capacity that we don't really want to have. He

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canles in Salford contains some of the most deprived streets in

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Britain. Many of its shops are closed. The unemployed advice

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centre, though, does a brisk trade, and the man who runs is pessimistic

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about the kind of growth we are getting. Salford is a branch

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economy. When companies close down or reduce, they chop the branches

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off first and Salford was chopped off a number of years ago. The

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branches aren't growing back yet. Right, right.

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Poverty on this scale creates its own demand, but not the kind you

:05:55.:05:59.

would ideally want to have. We are employing 13 people to improve the

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health of the people at the bottom. Which is very bad in a place like

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this? Horrendous.Why? Too many alcohol outlets, no cinemas,

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nothing in this area but 77 outlets here to buy or drink alcohol.

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Within 1,000ms. 77 shops selling alcohol within 1km? Yes.The longer

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I stayed here I began to wonder what kind of growth it would need

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to lift this economy out of the world of loan sharks and cheap

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booze. We have been on the streets five minutes and it is obviously

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the level of deprivation, what kind of economic recovery would it take

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to feel it here? It would be a massive thing, Paul. What you need

:06:46.:06:51.

is you need to bring real industry, but you also need to bring and

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train the generation that hasn't worked in skilled industry. It is

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doable, but you need, it would be need to be done, in my view, over

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probably five -to-ten years. Even if tomorrow we find growth on track

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for 1% or more, the challenge is great. So it's been breakfast in

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buzzing London, lunch at a factory where they can't grow because they

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can't find enough skilled workers, and tea, as we call it, here in

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Salford, where there's lots of compare capacity, people, closed

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shops, but it is very hard to see how 1% growth so was things. These

:07:31.:07:35.

we call structural problems in economics. There has always been

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wealth in the south and grit here. But once these streets felt wealthy

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too. Being here gives a whole new meaning to the term "rebalancing".

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I'm joined by Bronwyn Curtis, former head of global research at

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HSBC, and current vice chair of the society of business economists.

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Dido Harding, CEO of TalkTalk, and the editor of City AM. Let's begin

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with what is going right now, we don't normally start with this, if

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the figures are he relatively good? You have growing businesses, I run

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one. If you look in the papers this evening you will see several

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businesses reporting growing active ein my sector, in the digital world.

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But geographically perhaps not in some of the areas we are talking

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about? Ironically my business is based in Salford. So I would

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contend that there are growing high-tech businesses in the

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Manchester area that we should be very proud of as a country, rather

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than always looking to find the bad. What is interesting is maybe a year

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ago some people were talking about, maybe there could be a triple-dip

:08:39.:08:44.

recession, we didn't have a double- dip when the figures were revised,

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have we turned a big corner or not? I don't think we have turned a big

:08:48.:08:51.

corner. It is nice to see positive growth, and perhaps heading for 1%.

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By this time in the cycle you would hope that it was 2% plus, if not

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more. One of the things that is happening, of course, is interest

:09:00.:09:04.

rates are really low. So the corporate sector, as we just talked

:09:04.:09:08.

about, is in quite good shape, because they can borrow money

:09:08.:09:12.

cheaply, and they can actually, you know, give something back to their

:09:12.:09:16.

shareholders and so on. But of course they are not investing, what

:09:16.:09:21.

we need to see is more investment coming through. So the economy is

:09:21.:09:24.

still unbalanced, we're not seeing enough exports, but it is better

:09:24.:09:31.

than it was, so we're just not at escape velocity. Any growth is

:09:31.:09:34.

presumably good news? The problem is you can get the wrong kind of

:09:34.:09:38.

growth. That is what we got during the double of the noughties. You

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had very good GDP figure, every quarter was great, economists jump

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frping up and down for joy, -- jumping up and down for joy. The

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Chancellor, Gordon Brown, was jumping up and down, but it was a

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mirage and it vanished and had to be lick quit quid date. It had been

:09:54.:10:01.

to be the investments that went wrong. We are seeing the wrong kind

:10:01.:10:04.

of growth, consumption, debt consumption, the Chancellor

:10:04.:10:07.

promoting the housing market too much in my point of view. It is the

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wrong kind of growth, not because of exports or investments, it is

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because of consumption, Government consumption, private sector

:10:14.:10:17.

consumption, it is because of leverage. What did you make of the

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BSA story, it was very interesting, it was obvious from Paul's report

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you do see some people who are older and some people who are

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apprentices, and not many in the middle. That is the living skills

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gap, isn't it, it is a problem? think the skills gap is a real

:10:31.:10:34.

challenge for all businesses. But it is something that we should

:10:34.:10:38.

tackle head-on and really invest in ourselves. I would argue the

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biggest skills gap we have in the country is the digital skills gap.

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There are 14 million people in this country that don't know how to use

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the Internet. Seven million people who have never used the Internet.

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Yet if we want to be an export-led economy the digital exporting trade

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has to be our future. But that, some parts of that are perhaps

:10:57.:11:02.

solvable quite quick ly, in terms of the apprenticeships, and those

:11:02.:11:08.

fitting in under 60 and over 20, that will take a long time to sort

:11:08.:11:13.

out? I'm ever the optimist, I run an entrepeneural business only

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started in 2006, we have never known another world. It is possible

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to start a company and grow it to be sizeable and I compete with

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bigger companies than mine and be successful, we shouldn't be quite

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so negative. If you look at what the growth -- Growth Commission and

:11:32.:11:39.

what they talked about to get the qu. Economy growing, one was skills,

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and investment. On the skills side you need basic skills and general

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education, as well as vocational education. But I did think the

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difference between, you know, the elderly sitting there and, elderly,

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that sounds terribly, the older worker and the apprentice, and you

:11:56.:12:00.

wonder why they haven't inbetween been bringing people through. What

:12:00.:12:03.

happens to those apprentices once they are trained? Where do they go

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off to? That is a very good question, I don't know if anyone

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has a good answer, let me know if you have. What we will hear

:12:09.:12:12.

tomorrow, almost certainly, is people saying look at all this good

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news, it is not perfect, but it is a lot better than it was. But one

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of the things we have been talking about for years lack of confidence.

:12:20.:12:25.

Can you talk up the economy in a good way? Interestingly enough

:12:25.:12:27.

consumer confidence has really bounced back over the last few

:12:27.:12:35.

years, there is a lot of polls by YouGov and Ipsos MORI showing that.

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Consumers are more confidence and the economy is doing better in that

:12:37.:12:41.

sense. When you look at the nitty gritty and what is happening, the

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big decisions, the big decisions are not being taken, you are not

:12:45.:12:48.

seeing massive corporate investment in this country, why, because

:12:48.:12:52.

returns on investment are too low, and planning rules are messed up.

:12:52.:12:54.

You could create sustainable growth if you allowed the private sector

:12:54.:12:59.

to build a new airport or more homes. It is all kinds of problems.

:12:59.:13:03.

To our optimist, to many people it doesn't feel like a recovery, does

:13:03.:13:07.

it, many, many of us have seen real wages shrinking? I run

:13:07.:13:11.

fundamentally a consumer business, and consumers are considerably more

:13:11.:13:14.

savvy than they were a decade ago. They are also poorer than they were

:13:14.:13:19.

five years ago? And they are wiser about where to spend their money. I

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think we should encourage them to gradually grow in confidence, there

:13:24.:13:27.

is a reason why value for money businesses like mine and Primark

:13:27.:13:32.

are the ones that are really growing, because sadly customers at

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any income level are choosing value where they find it. How gra --

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fragile is it, and the fragility is why the Bank of England has sent

:13:43.:13:47.

pretty clear signals that interest rates are not going up soon?

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need that, and you talked about the consumer and confidence bouncing

:13:52.:13:55.

back, the biggest issue is real disposable income. In other words

:13:55.:13:59.

the money we have in our pocket after inflation is not going up.

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And that's the biggest risk in the second half of the year, that

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people have been spending their savings and that you know as we are

:14:06.:14:12.

going into the second half of the year, if they are still feeling

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poor they will start cutting back again. I think if you can build on

:14:16.:14:20.

the confidence and you know unemployment has gone down. You

:14:20.:14:26.

know, we are growing so if you can get that going it can take off. We

:14:26.:14:30.

are not there yet, the risk is we have to have low interest rates for

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a very long time, which makes the structure in the economy even more

:14:35.:14:37.

unbalanced. You were the most gloomy of everybody here, but this

:14:37.:14:41.

is hardly, it is not a repeat of the past in the sense that there is

:14:41.:14:45.

no sense of irrational he can subjugate regins? That is in one

:14:45.:14:49.

sector, and that is -- exuburance? That is in the housing

:14:50.:14:53.

market. The Government are now worried that will be the problem.

:14:53.:14:57.

The other area is low interest rates, people are getting used to

:14:57.:15:02.

the fact that money is cheap. It has been so long that it is getting

:15:02.:15:04.

counter-productive. It is unsustainable. Rates will go up to

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five or six%, and a lot of companies will -- 5-6% and a lot of

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companies will feel that. You are not worried we will get into a

:15:15.:15:20.

recession? I think maybe in two or three years time when rates go up

:15:20.:15:27.

and companies aren't ready. Provided there is people like you

:15:27.:15:33.

reminding us of that, there are not very many consumers getting and

:15:33.:15:35.

taking advantage of low interest rates, everyone remembers what it

:15:35.:15:40.

was like, they recognise they have to be sensele. That is a quantum

:15:40.:15:43.

shift in the way the population has behaved.

:15:43.:15:52.

Now rescuers are working tonight at the scene of a major train

:15:52.:15:56.

derailment in a northern city of Spain. Up to 35 people could have

:15:56.:16:02.

been killed. We are joined with the latest. What do we know happened

:16:02.:16:07.

here? We believe the train derailed on the neighbourhood on the edge of

:16:07.:16:12.

the regional capital up in the north of Spain at around about 9.00

:16:12.:16:15.

local time. Clearly from the pictures there was a lot of damage,

:16:15.:16:20.

a lot of smoke. One eyewitness account talked about hearing an

:16:20.:16:24.

explosion, about seeing the carriages travel several metres off

:16:24.:16:29.

the tracks after the derailment. We heard from the Spanish Government

:16:29.:16:32.

that the Spanish Prime Minister who is from the area will travel to the

:16:32.:16:37.

region early tomorrow. And just these pictures look absolutely

:16:37.:16:42.

horrendous, just to be clear we think it was a derailment it is

:16:42.:16:45.

only one train involved, that is what we are looking at? That's

:16:45.:16:49.

right. A derailment, one train involved, some early reports, and

:16:49.:16:53.

these are unconfirmed reports out of Spanish press talking about a

:16:53.:16:57.

particular curve that the train was going round. Some concerns

:16:57.:17:00.

apparently from local media being reported by local media from

:17:00.:17:04.

engineers at the scene. But early reports suggest at least 35 people

:17:04.:17:08.

have died. Some reports that actually the regional Government is

:17:08.:17:14.

now appealing for blood donors to come forward. This was an Alvia

:17:14.:17:20.

train, it is not the high-speed rail service, this country has an

:17:21.:17:23.

impressive network of high-speed trains, but this was a different

:17:23.:17:28.

train travelling on the same route up to the capital from the area

:17:28.:17:37.

earlier tonight. The idea of curing a psychiatric

:17:37.:17:41.

illness bypass ago jolt of electricity through the Brian -- by

:17:41.:17:45.

passing a jolt of electricity through the brain has been thought

:17:45.:17:49.

to be a thing of the past. But thousands of patients these days

:17:49.:17:54.

are still being given ECT in a also-ditch attempt to treat

:17:54.:17:57.

depression. Since it was last used doctors have argued over how and

:17:57.:18:01.

why the treatment might work for some. A team in Aberdeen think they

:18:02.:18:11.
:18:12.:18:12.

are closer than ever to solving the problem. This film contains some

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scenes that viewers might find upsetting. Born in the asylums of

:18:20.:18:26.

the 20th century. A new breed of treatments meant to cure the most

:18:26.:18:36.
:18:36.:18:38.

seriously ill. Some of them fell out of favour as the old asylums

:18:38.:18:42.

closed down. One though is quietly being used in hospitals up and down

:18:42.:18:50.

the country. ECT started out as an experiment. Doctors noticed some

:18:50.:18:54.

heavily distressed patients would suddenly improve after an epileptic

:18:54.:19:00.

fit. Passing an electric current through the brain could trigger a

:19:01.:19:05.

similar seizure, and they hoped, a similar response .5 years later it

:19:05.:19:09.

is still one of the most controversial, most devisive

:19:09.:19:15.

treatments in mental health. I have an advanced statement that says, my

:19:15.:19:19.

colleagues all know this, if I'm ever severely depressed or psyche

:19:20.:19:23.

cotic with depression, this is the treatment I would want for me.

:19:23.:19:30.

convinced that in 10-15 years we will have put ECT in the same

:19:30.:19:38.

rubbish bin as lobotomy, surprise baths and on and on. My mother was

:19:38.:19:43.

absolutely totally against it. She thought it was barbaric, she had

:19:43.:19:50.

seen a friend in the 50s have that treatment in the old psychiatric

:19:50.:19:53.

hospital in Aberdeen and she really didn't want me to go on with it.

:19:53.:20:00.

She thought I could snap out of it. John Wattie is one of a small but

:20:00.:20:07.

growing number in Scotland, who agreed to have an experimental form

:20:08.:20:13.

of electroconvulsive therapy. A regular top-up dose every month to

:20:13.:20:17.

keep his severe depression in check. He has suffered from the illness

:20:17.:20:21.

since a breakdown triggered by the collapse of his marriage and stress

:20:21.:20:25.

at work. We had a nice house, a nice lifestyle and it was all

:20:25.:20:30.

crumbling and falling away because of me, or because of her, but I

:20:30.:20:33.

think it was probably because of my depression, just started to

:20:33.:20:42.

overwhelm me. I just lost control, I became violent, I became, I just

:20:42.:20:52.
:20:52.:21:00.

you know ...hoi to describe it? I came, I didn't want to live, I

:21:00.:21:05.

didn't want to commit suicide but I didn't want to live. Drugs and

:21:05.:21:11.

therapy couldn't lift him out of the hole. John's doctor suggested

:21:11.:21:16.

regular ECT under general anaesthetic, alongside a course of

:21:16.:21:18.

anti-depressants, his next treatment is due soon and he's

:21:18.:21:24.

letting us film the process. months coming up I find that I get

:21:24.:21:30.

overwhelmed by emotions. I feel the depression coming back again. It

:21:30.:21:40.
:21:40.:21:42.

frightens me. It really does frighten me. So I know I need it

:21:43.:21:50.

tomorrow, I know I need it. We saw John arrive and get himself on to a

:21:50.:21:56.

trolley. I feel fine, but I know that I'm ready for my next ECT. I

:21:56.:22:03.

know I feel a bit tearful with it and it is time to have a top-up.

:22:04.:22:09.

The next step is to set up monitoring to make sure he's safe

:22:09.:22:15.

during the treatment. I'm going it put on the EEG monitoring, you saw

:22:15.:22:20.

electrodes being put on to measure his heart's activity, to check his

:22:20.:22:24.

oxygen levels. I put on electrodes on his forehead and behind his ears

:22:24.:22:27.

to measure his brain waves to get the sense of the quality of the

:22:27.:22:37.
:22:37.:22:43.

seizure and how long it lasted. The next step then was for the anise

:22:43.:22:49.

thirst to start giving him the -- anaesthetist to give him the

:22:49.:22:59.
:22:59.:23:04.

medicines, and then a muscle relaxant to relax his muscles. Then

:23:05.:23:09.

his lungs were hyper-inflated with oxygen so his oxygen levels was as

:23:09.:23:18.

high as possible. At that point I was in a position to put the

:23:18.:23:23.

electrodes on each side of his head, and initiate the seizure by passing

:23:23.:23:33.
:23:33.:23:40.

the electric current. Go! (beeping) you saw there that initially John

:23:40.:23:43.

grimaceed, not because he was in pain, but because we were

:23:43.:23:53.

stimulating the muscles around his face directly with the electricity.

:23:53.:23:58.

Then after that we could see from the EEG that a seizure had been

:23:58.:24:08.
:24:08.:24:10.

produced. OK that's about 25 seconds on the EEG. That's good.

:24:10.:24:14.

What we have just seen is still one of the most controversial

:24:14.:24:18.

treatments, not just in psychiatry, but medicine itself. Passing an

:24:18.:24:22.

electric current through the brain to trigger a seizure does seem to

:24:22.:24:27.

be effective for many patients. But it is only now, 75 years after ECT

:24:27.:24:30.

was first used that doctors are starting to find out why it might

:24:30.:24:40.
:24:40.:24:44.

work. The use of MRI scanners and neural image has changed how many

:24:44.:24:50.

psychiatrists think about mental illness. One theory gaining grown

:24:50.:24:53.

is hyper-connectivity, certain parts of the brain can become

:24:53.:24:59.

overconnected or overloaded, that could be to blame for disorders

:24:59.:25:04.

from depression to autism. In Aberdeen the research team scanned

:25:04.:25:08.

the brains of nine people undergoing a full course of

:25:08.:25:12.

treatment. We looked at severely depressed patients before treatment

:25:12.:25:17.

and after successful treatment with ECT. What we did is we looked at

:25:17.:25:22.

the connectivity within the brain. And before the treatment, when the

:25:22.:25:28.

patient was severely depress the, you -- depressed, you can see all

:25:28.:25:33.

the orange areas, we don't see that in healthy people. After successful

:25:33.:25:39.

treatment with ECT, all the orange connectivity disappeared, and we

:25:39.:25:44.

saw this relative low small area, shown in blue here, still connected.

:25:44.:25:47.

That is actually quite normal. That is what we would expect to see in

:25:47.:25:57.

healthy people. Are you ready? latest academic interest in ECT

:25:57.:26:07.
:26:07.:26:08.

come after decades of falling use. Its brutal depiction in One Flew

:26:08.:26:18.
:26:18.:26:18.

Over The Cuckoo's Nest, is the beginning of the end. The BBC's

:26:18.:26:24.

White Heat, here set in 1973 shows a patient given ECT without

:26:24.:26:26.

anaesthetic, something that wouldn't happen now. For around

:26:26.:26:31.

4,000 people a year it is still the treatment of last resort. One in

:26:32.:26:36.

three are so ill they are not capable of giving consent, two

:26:36.:26:42.

thirds are women with an average age of 60. We had a holiday in

:26:42.:26:51.

Egypt. It was February 1997, it would have been just a few months

:26:51.:26:59.

before that ECT and it has wiped all memories of this holiday.

:26:59.:27:06.

Crane was given two rounds of ECT in the late 190s, she blames the

:27:06.:27:10.

second course for wiepg out years of her memory, and making her

:27:10.:27:15.

forget even basic words or phrases. Immediately afterwards very bad

:27:15.:27:23.

headaches. Then you think, I have just had the treatment, that's

:27:23.:27:30.

perhaps to be expected. But, immediately, and I knew something

:27:30.:27:38.

wasn't right. I had this instinct that something was wrong with my

:27:38.:27:44.

mother but I couldn't remember that she had died. Then I had to say to

:27:44.:27:49.

my husband, Chris, what is, what has happened to my mother. He had

:27:49.:27:58.

to tell me that in fact she had died nearly two years earlier. That

:27:58.:28:02.

was quite devastating. It is like going through bereavement all over

:28:02.:28:12.
:28:12.:28:15.

again. Getting the words wrong is a nuisance, it is annoying. It is

:28:15.:28:25.
:28:25.:28:28.

pretty... Now I have lost the word. It is frustrating. But to have lost

:28:28.:28:36.

really basic important things in your life is just awful. Critics of

:28:36.:28:41.

ECT say around a third of patients notice some sort of permanent

:28:41.:28:46.

change like this, from memory loss to problems with speech, or basic

:28:46.:28:51.

skills like counting money. The author of a scathing research paper

:28:51.:28:56.

into the treatment says it is outdated, dangerous, and only

:28:56.:29:00.

effective in the very short-term. What happens is it is a little bit

:29:01.:29:06.

like a charging up a rundown car battery, to be crude, it is not

:29:06.:29:11.

difficult to get artificial changes in the brain, you could do it with

:29:11.:29:15.

cocaine. It is not difficult, that doesn't last, of course, and then

:29:15.:29:19.

you find three, four weeks later the person is either back at the

:29:19.:29:23.

same level of depression or, many studies show, even worse levels of

:29:23.:29:26.

depression. Then of course some of those people think I felt really

:29:26.:29:31.

good right after the ECT, give me another one. Then they get into

:29:31.:29:35.

this endless cycle and it is perhaps a form of addiction. It is

:29:36.:29:39.

not in any way addressing the as you of their depression. It is

:29:39.:29:43.

systematically and gradually wiping out their memory and their

:29:43.:29:47.

cognitive function at the same time. There are risks associated with any

:29:47.:29:51.

kind of medical treatment for severe illnesses, it is important

:29:51.:29:56.

to appreciate the folks getting ECT are suffering from an illness that

:29:56.:30:00.

could kill them. It is a balance that has to be struck between good

:30:00.:30:06.

effects and adverse effects? It doesn't make you uneasy to pass

:30:06.:30:09.

an electric current through somebody who doesn't want it done?

:30:09.:30:13.

It made me uneasy as a doctor that I couldn't do that for someone who

:30:13.:30:17.

was clearly suffering and whose life was threatened and who I knew

:30:17.:30:20.

I would be able to make better through the treatment.

:30:20.:30:25.

Waking up from the anaesthetic John says he immediately feels better.

:30:25.:30:32.

And any memory loss quickly passes. I feel as if my batteries have been

:30:32.:30:36.

recharged, you know yesterday I kept telling you that I feel I'm

:30:36.:30:40.

just about to fall into that deep hole again. I wasn't depressed, but

:30:40.:30:44.

I felt that I was going to be. That's totally gone already, it is

:30:44.:30:51.

totally gone. I feel happy, eager to get on with life again, and to

:30:51.:31:01.
:31:01.:31:02.

me it is a miracle treatment for me. Our understanding of the brain is

:31:02.:31:10.

still in its infancy. Perhaps by discovering why ECT might work, new

:31:10.:31:16.

treatments can be developed without the same brutal side-effects. Both

:31:16.:31:20.

its supporters and critics hope that putting an electric current

:31:20.:31:25.

through the most complex organ in the body will one day looks a dated

:31:25.:31:35.
:31:35.:31:37.

as those asylums and mad houses of times gone past.

:31:37.:31:41.

For details of organisations which offer advice and support on

:31:41.:31:51.
:31:51.:31:59.

Let's discuss that report with a journalist who has written about

:31:59.:32:09.
:32:09.:32:09.

her on positive experiences with ECT, and Jane Harris who is from

:32:09.:32:14.

ReThink Mental Illness. Should we re-think ECT, I had the One Flew

:32:14.:32:21.

Over The Cuckoo's Nest idea? need to look at ECT being good for

:32:21.:32:26.

some people, as we might look for chemotherapy which has severe side-

:32:26.:32:31.

effects for curing cancer and some people might want to try it. Why

:32:31.:32:36.

aren't we further ahead in mental health treatments, and not all

:32:36.:32:38.

treatments are available for everybody at the moment. Were you

:32:38.:32:42.

struck by the question of connectivity, ECT may be revealing

:32:42.:32:46.

something very important, even if it is not the way of involving that

:32:46.:32:50.

problem? Absolutely -- solving that problem. Absolutely, we are making

:32:50.:32:53.

breakthroughs in neuroscience and we should invest much more. At the

:32:53.:32:58.

moment the whole of mental health research gets 5% of the research

:32:58.:33:01.

budget. Even though we know the World Health Organisation says

:33:01.:33:04.

depression alone will be the leading cause of disability by 2020.

:33:04.:33:08.

If we want to be competitive as a country, you were talking about the

:33:08.:33:11.

economy earlier, we have to be a healthy society, we need much

:33:11.:33:14.

better treatment for all the people unfortunate enough to suffer

:33:14.:33:19.

depression. When you watch that film, it must have struck a lot of

:33:19.:33:23.

chords for you? It is really interesting. Did you see it as the

:33:23.:33:26.

last resort having tried other things? I had tried everything,

:33:26.:33:32.

every pill under the sun, different types of therapy, CBT, mindfulness.

:33:32.:33:36.

I felt absolutely rock bottom when I tried it t I didn't feel I could

:33:36.:33:40.

feel any worse. It looks to an outsider it looks pretty horrible?

:33:40.:33:44.

It doesn't matter what it looks like, what matters is what it is

:33:44.:33:47.

like for you undergoing it, you are asleep. Most people don't realise.

:33:47.:33:51.

You have a general anaesthetic, you don't convulse. You are asleep. And

:33:51.:33:56.

quite often you wake up and feel better. You suffered from some

:33:56.:34:01.

small side-effects didn't you? have comparatively minor side-

:34:01.:34:07.

effects, I have some short-term memory loss and a slightly slower

:34:07.:34:11.

brain function. But it is annoying, it is no more than that, it is not

:34:11.:34:15.

nothing but it is not much worse than annoying. It is interesting

:34:15.:34:19.

the comparison to chemotherapy, it is better than the disease? Yeah.

:34:19.:34:23.

The comparison is, it is enormous. What did you make though, I know

:34:23.:34:27.

some of the figures here are very difficult to get quite right, but

:34:27.:34:32.

the idea that a third of patients feel quite serious side-effects, if

:34:32.:34:37.

it was a drug that had a third of people saying this gives me serious

:34:37.:34:41.

side-effects we probably wouldn't use it? I'm not sure that is true

:34:41.:34:43.

in mental health. Unfortunately some of the drugs we use in mental

:34:43.:34:49.

health go back to the 50s and beyond as well. People who psyche

:34:49.:34:53.

anti-psychotic drugs if they have schizophrenia, you have men who

:34:53.:34:58.

might lack Tate as a result of that, and people who shake -- lactate all

:34:58.:35:02.

the time and others who might shake all the time. People need to know

:35:02.:35:07.

all the risks where they can say that is the one I can cope with the

:35:07.:35:12.

side-effects. People don't get the choice to decide because they are

:35:12.:35:16.

considered too ill? And people don't get psychotherapy which

:35:16.:35:19.

doesn't have side-effects. We have had a massive increase in the

:35:20.:35:24.

number of psychologists for those with mild-to-moderate depression,

:35:24.:35:30.

but for those with chronic and fits freenia there is less, that is a

:35:30.:35:35.

scandal, that should the top of Jeremy Hunt's to-do-list and it

:35:36.:35:39.

isn't. Just to ask you on the specific thing, you heard one of

:35:39.:35:44.

the scientists in the piece saying, the trouble is, it is a bit like

:35:44.:35:48.

cocaine. Do you see any analogy that it is something, it is a

:35:48.:35:52.

treatment, not a cure and it becomes addictive? It is a funny

:35:52.:35:58.

word toe use, "addictive", can you be addicted to feeling normal. You

:35:58.:36:03.

feel so awful, it is hard to imagine what it is like to feel be

:36:03.:36:08.

severely depressed, it is not a high it is normal again. Do you

:36:08.:36:12.

think it is important to change the perception of this from the

:36:12.:36:16.

stereotypes that we have seen? is very important. The stigma

:36:16.:36:20.

around it, I'm sure it puts a lot of people off. I would urge anyone

:36:20.:36:24.

who is thinking about it to find out what the facts are and not the

:36:24.:36:29.

myths around ECT. The process itself is not that scary. There may

:36:29.:36:37.

or may not be side-effects for each individual person.

:36:37.:36:42.

Film premiers in Hollywood or Cannes are ten a penny. But today a

:36:42.:36:45.

great blockbuster chose to premier in Norwich. The reason, the star

:36:46.:36:49.

Alan Partridge told his fans, the film is his love letter to Norwich.

:36:50.:36:53.

Fans of Partridge and his creator, Steve Coogan, will be impressed

:36:53.:36:58.

with the loyalty to the city which made him famous, or the other way

:36:58.:37:04.

around T prompted us to think about how loyal are we to the cities of

:37:04.:37:13.

our roots and how irritated are we with criticism of beloved town.

:37:13.:37:21.

That was soft drugs and cocaine enthusiasts Fleetwood Mac.

:37:21.:37:29.

I was having a great conversation Norwich's most sun-tanned child,

:37:29.:37:36.

passed that on to social services. He's in a new radio show in Norwich.

:37:36.:37:40.

After a campaign on social media the film had its premier in the

:37:40.:37:46.

city. The other reason I'm here is because of security. When you're on

:37:46.:37:51.

the red carpet it is very easy for a sniper to take you out. But do

:37:51.:37:55.

the Partridge team ever feel guilty about what they have done to Alan's

:37:55.:38:05.

adoptive city. I like Norwich, I have an aunt who lives in Norwich,

:38:05.:38:09.

we have nothing against Norwich, we thought it was funny that a

:38:09.:38:13.

character like Alan came from Norwich. We couldn't think of any

:38:13.:38:17.

other comedy character who came from Norwich. There was one Lord

:38:17.:38:22.

Mayor of Norwich who said Alan has done more destruction to the image

:38:22.:38:26.

of Alan than any group of terrorists could. But fortunately

:38:26.:38:33.

the most recent Lord Mayor has welcomed the investment and tourism

:38:33.:38:39.

that Alan will bring to the city. The writers put Partridge in

:38:39.:38:43.

Norwich because it was tantalisingly out of reach of

:38:43.:38:46.

London. There is always in these things some element of truth. Those

:38:46.:38:52.

of us who know the city see the good side of that. But we are,

:38:52.:38:58.

perhaps, some what removed from Metropolitan life, that brings with

:38:58.:39:03.

it a whole host of rather attractive features in terms of way

:39:03.:39:07.

of life for those living here, and speaking to everybody who lives in

:39:07.:39:11.

the area they would endorse that view. It is weird if you visit this

:39:11.:39:15.

country it all looks the same, if you get off at Bristol or Glasgow

:39:15.:39:21.

itle all looks a bit the same. No offence to those cities. It is a

:39:21.:39:25.

weird thing, Birmingham they stalk funny, Devon they are stupid,

:39:25.:39:28.

Bristol nobody really knows, Cardiff it is not really a city.

:39:28.:39:32.

All these stereotypes of what are essentially similar places. It just

:39:32.:39:37.

gives us little markers in the featureless bland landscape of our

:39:37.:39:44.

lives. AliG, is, of course a favourite son

:39:44.:39:50.

of Staines in Surrey. His posse, you will we are, of the West

:39:50.:39:56.

Staines Massive. He's not really from Staines at although, that is

:39:56.:40:02.

Staines-upon-Thames to you. The town has felt it necessary to

:40:02.:40:05.

emphasise its beautiful river associations. Take a look, Staines

:40:05.:40:13.

is a green, leafy Thames side town, with a fantastic history, a

:40:13.:40:19.

brilliant environment, fantastic strategic links for investment. It

:40:19.:40:22.

is incredibly popular with international commuters. It has

:40:22.:40:27.

great things going for it. You make it sound a bit like Monaco,

:40:27.:40:34.

businessmen and king pins living here? They both have a Riviera-

:40:34.:40:43.

style ambience in the summer, and I have no idea whether Monoco boasts

:40:44.:40:51.

so many good pubs. How many of your problems down to Ali G? We wouldn't

:40:51.:40:57.

have got so much press coverage changing the name to Staines-upon-

:40:57.:41:02.

Thames if it wasn't for Ali G. He has done damage and he has got his

:41:02.:41:12.
:41:12.:41:13.

place in the town's history and I'm about the future. The history of

:41:13.:41:16.

lino flooring might be different without the contribution of Staines,

:41:16.:41:21.

apparently, but it makes no difference. There is a second

:41:21.:41:27.

category of funny towns and it is ones with funny names, Staines is

:41:27.:41:36.

one, Slough, my parents are from Bubbly Staunton, Bogor was the

:41:36.:41:44.

funnyiest place in Britain because it contained the name "toilet" in

:41:44.:41:51.

its name. Doncaster won't get them rolling in the aisles. Staines,

:41:51.:41:54.

with the schoolboy humour of Ali G, Staines is the funnyiest place in

:41:54.:42:04.
:42:04.:42:05.

the world, I'm sure it has nothing to do with semen. Does the Alan

:42:05.:42:09.

Partridge premier in the city make up for his teasing of the city?

:42:09.:42:16.

After the slap in the face, the kiss to make it better? Let's have

:42:16.:42:22.

a few words with the man who wrote the book Crap Towns, a compendium

:42:22.:42:28.

of Britain's most derided and picked on places. He's in a studio

:42:29.:42:34.

near his home near Norwich. I take it Norwich doesn't make it into the

:42:34.:42:38.

book of crap towns? It is a very lovely town. You are only saying

:42:38.:42:43.

that because you live there or it is lovely? I'm saying it because I

:42:43.:42:46.

value my safety! I'm saying it because it is a great place. I

:42:46.:42:50.

moved here out of choice, believe it or not. It is interesting, we

:42:50.:42:56.

heard from the comedy writer why certain towns get picked upon.

:42:56.:43:03.

Slough has been picked on since John Betchimen, is there a defining

:43:03.:43:06.

characteristic that links the towns? If you look at any town long

:43:06.:43:10.

enough you will find something wrong with it, that is why the book

:43:11.:43:20.

Crap Towns, works so well. Places like Slough do bring up an image of

:43:20.:43:26.

bord mold, roundabouts, there are d boredom, roundabouts, they bring up

:43:26.:43:31.

patterns. You are being polite about Norwich, but when a town

:43:31.:43:36.

features in your book you decide to put it in people won't be out

:43:36.:43:45.

cheering in the streets, it is not like being in Who's Who? People

:43:45.:43:50.

feel differently, it is nominations from people in the town and the

:43:50.:43:53.

ones with the most votes get in. It is a chance for people to put the

:43:53.:43:57.

opposite point of view. They get a lot of publicity when the town

:43:57.:44:01.

comes out. They get a chance to put a good word in. Presumably part of

:44:01.:44:05.

it is being able to have a laugh about yourself. We heard that

:44:05.:44:09.

gentleman from Staines who was very amusing, and Alan Partridge, he

:44:09.:44:16.

hasn't donor itch any harm, has he? That is right. - done Norwich any

:44:16.:44:21.

harm has he? That is right. I think people do enjoy laughing at

:44:21.:44:27.

themselves in Britain and it is funny. Is it quite often to do with

:44:27.:44:33.

snobbery, have you any posh towns in the crap towns category? There

:44:33.:44:38.

is probably more posh towns than urban deprivation does feature. But

:44:38.:44:42.

posh towns and the unique problems that go with them feature more.

:44:42.:44:46.

Chipping Norton is a big contender this time round. OK, we won't go

:44:47.:44:56.

there. Thank you very much. That's it from us. We wanted to leave you

:44:56.:45:00.

with one further reflection of our loyalty to our cities and towns and

:45:00.:45:05.

their symbols. Liverpool have been playing a friendly in Melbourne

:45:05.:45:09.

Australia, suddenly the 100,000- strong scenes might make you think

:45:09.:45:12.

there is a special bond between the two great cities at the opposite

:45:12.:45:22.
:45:22.:45:23.

ends of the earth. # Walk on

:45:23.:45:32.

# With hope in your heart # And you'll never walk

:45:32.:45:42.
:45:42.:45:44.

# Alone # You'll never walk

:45:44.:45:54.
:45:54.:45:57.

# Alone # Alone

:45:57.:46:00.

Good evening to you the summer weather continues so we are still

:46:00.:46:06.

in the midst of this warmish spell, humidity and moisture out there.

:46:06.:46:08.

Showers and thunderstorms will be breaking out through parts of

:46:08.:46:11.

northern England and northern England. Northern Ireland and

:46:11.:46:16.

Scotland, these areas, the downpours could be heavy. Hail and

:46:16.:46:22.

gusty winds as well. Temperatures, nothing spectacular, but it is this

:46:22.:46:25.

humidity in the air that is basically the source of these big

:46:25.:46:28.

storms. Towards the south of the country the weather will be better,

:46:28.:46:32.

there will be more sunshine around, the temperatures will reach the

:46:32.:46:36.

mid-20s, it has been a very long time since we have been only

:46:36.:46:40.

forecasting around 34 degrees in the London area. Today we got up to

:46:40.:46:44.

28 Celsius. For the south west of the country, a fresher, more

:46:44.:46:49.

pleasant 20 degrees in Plymouth. An outside chance of a shower. If any

:46:49.:46:53.

showers brew across Wales it is more likely across northern parts

:46:53.:46:56.

of Wales. The same theme continues, northern parts of the country more

:46:56.:47:00.

likely to catch the showers. Most scater, thunderstorms too, towards

:47:00.:47:03.

the south warmer, dryer and brighter. Towards the end of the

:47:03.:47:06.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Gavin Esler.


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