23/07/2013 Newsnight


23/07/2013

The CIA arms Syrian rebels. The strange life of a royal baby. Thalidomide in the Brazilian slums. And baby boomers bailing out their grandchildren.


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given the go ahead by the United States Congress to begin arming the

:00:16.:00:18.

Syrian rebels. Light weapons and ammunition will begin to flow

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within weeks along with training, logistics and intelligence. With

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America's top soldier in uniform fretting about possible mission

:00:27.:00:31.

creep and unintended consequences, we hear from both sides of the

:00:31.:00:34.

debate in Washington. Everyone remembers their first baby

:00:34.:00:38.

pictures, but this baby will need to get used to a life under the

:00:38.:00:41.

microscope. What kind of childhood can the infant Prince look forward

:00:41.:00:46.

to. We're still working on a name, so we will have that as soon as we

:00:46.:00:54.

can. And what name is fit for a modern king? William, Heny. Stephen.

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Richard John. Hey. David Starkey and Martin Bashir

:00:59.:01:03.

share their expertise. The children in Brazil born to poor mothers

:01:03.:01:07.

being treated for leprosy with a drug banned after causing birth

:01:07.:01:12.

defects in the 1950s. Where is thalidomide being handed out again.

:01:12.:01:15.

TRANSLATION: His father said the doctor didn't tell him that women

:01:15.:01:19.

couldn't take it. He said they didn't tell him anything about it.

:01:19.:01:28.

What of the baby-boomers and what have they done for you? Quite a lot

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actually, according to a new study of the way grandparents give their

:01:33.:01:43.
:01:43.:01:44.

wealth and time to their grandchildren. Good evening,

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American military intervention in Syria means the guns will now

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arrive within weeks. The United States House and Senate

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intelligence committees have given the go ahead to the CIA to ship

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weapons to the Syrian opposition. Big doubts remain. America's top

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soldier in uniform, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General

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Sir Martin Demsey, has warned of the unintended consequence, that

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could empower extremists or unleash the very chemical weapons we seek

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to control. We have been assessing whether this marks a significant

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turning point for western intervention.

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It is very significant, no doubt about it. It was back in early June

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that the White House briefed that America would supply weapons, they

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then deflected all further questions on the topic and we were

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left wondering what's happening. As we have pursued it and tried to

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follow it up over the last few weeks we heard the thing had moved

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to the Hill, to the Senate and the House Intelligence Committees. Some

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doubt as if there was a constitutional need for them to

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sign off it on it, it seems there was a political need. Doubts within

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both committees about whether these weapons could be kept under a

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reasonable degree of control, whether it was a sufficient measure.

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All of these types of things had been to be assuageed, they have

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received the go ahead from the committee. We have heard weapons

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could be arriving in two weeks, the beginning of August, it is clear it

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could be very soon. The American programme will channel

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guns, anti-tank weapons and even mortars through Jordan. The

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operation could cost $500 million in the first year. Washington

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insiders say it is ready to go. think that they would expect to

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send the first shipments within the next couple of weeks, ramping it up

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over a period of months. They already have the infrastructure

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largely in place in Jordan. Training, intelligence, logistics,

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and so I think that the first of it would be there within the next few

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weeks. It is months since President Obama

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said he would do more to help the opposition. He had been stung by

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criticism that he had done nothing to punish the Assad regime for

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crossing a red line by using chemical weapons. When it comes to

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using chemical weapons, the entire world should be concerned. In terms

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of what that means in terms of American action, keep in mind, we

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are already taking a whole range of actions, we are going to continue

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taking a whole range of actions, separate and apart from the

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chemical weapon use, we have tens of thousands of people being killed

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inside of Syria, we want to see that stopped. For humanitarian

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reasons but also for strategic reasons.

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Although the White House refused to elaborate it ordered troops in

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Jordan for military exercises to stay put and speculation soon began

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that they were there to set up training camps for the Free Syrian

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Army. Back home the battle continued between those who thought

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this would mark a slippery slope of intervention and those who think it

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is barely an adequate response to the Syrian crisis. The response of

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the administration has been slow and piecemeal, especially as the

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complexity of the Syria crisis has truly unfolded before us, where he

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it started out as peaceful uprising against a largely tyrannical regime

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and has movered into a sectarian -- morphed into a sectarian war that

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has divided the country into three parts and threatened to destroy

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Syria and the architectural region around Syria. The Pentagon has been

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siding with the non- interventionists recently. Its

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chief yesterday gave a downbeat assessment of military operations

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 43 seconds

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It could require thousands of Special Forces but only expected to

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control the, of the some but not all chemical weapons and might make

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it easier for extremists to get hold of others. A lot in Congress

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have been saying let's have a no- fly zone and attack Syrian air

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bases to down the Syrian air force. Dempsey has said it is a very

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difficult thing to do and will require a lot of resources. He has

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made no secret of his lack of enthusiasm. That is reflected in

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his letter. By pushing ahead with the plan to arm rebel groups the

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White House will channel lethal support via the CIA. Keeping the US

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military, if all goes to plan at arms length from it. But the

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problem is, as General Dempsey knows only too well, that

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intervention can rarely be managed in such a neat way.

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A little earlier I spoke to Congressman Adam Schiff, on the US

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House of 7 presentives -- House of Representatives Intelligence

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Committee. And to Danielle Pletka, author of Dissent in the Arab World,

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and director of the think-tank the American institute.

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Why why did did you choose to vote against the plan to use the CIA to

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arm Syrian rebels? I have a great deal of concern about getting

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involved in yet another civil war. I think that there are better steps

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that we can take than providing arms. Arms that we can't be sure

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even if they get in the right hands that they will stay in the right

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hands. I think we should retain our focus on getting the parties to

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negotiate a settlement on providing humanitarian relief, on taking

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action with the international community on a chemical weapons

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threat and try to degrade Assad's ability to deliver chemical weapons

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again. But, becoming an armed supplier in a civil war is not

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something I favour and that's something I have been speaking out

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on. Just so I understand the kind of consensus within the House and

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Senate Intelligence Committee, the House chairman Mike Rogers spoke of

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"very strong concern". Even though most have been seen to go along

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with the Obama add minutes trace, is there some people who think he's

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making a mistake? There is a broad concern in Congress about getting

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involved in this sectarian civil war. That a small amount of weapons

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is unlikely toe make a difference, and that we would have to provide

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such a massive quantity of arms and sophisticated weapons to tilt the

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balance on the battlefield that inevitably we would be drawn

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further and further into the civil war. Again there is the fear most

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members of Congress have on both sides of the aisle that even if you

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can vet members of the opposition that you provide weapons to, you

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can't be sure that they will stay with that vetted opposition. Many

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of the rebel groups are now fighting each other, and we have to

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prudently expect that some percentage of whatever weapons we

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might supply would get into the wrong hands. So without getting

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into any specific about what the administration is asking for

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calling for, I want to express my general concern without becoming a

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weapons supplier in the civil war. You have heard those reservations

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but also General Sir Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the joint chiefs is

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warning of unintended consequences and deeper involvement might be

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hard to avoid. You must be uncomfortable that a senior general

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with real experience of Iraq is so unenthusiastic of this? I'm not

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surprised at what General Dempsey is saying. The military is always

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unenthusiastic about war, that is why we have a civilian Commander-

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in-Chief who leads them. The President has made a decision about

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arming the rebels in Syria. The Congressman raises some reasonable

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calf youths. The honest truth -- caveats. The honest truth is if we

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could seal Syria off and keep it there, perhaps the American

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Congress could sit by and watch as hundreds of thousands of people are

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killed without fear that there would be an expansion regionally.

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As for the question of arms getting into the wrong hands, I'm afraid

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that horse has already left the stable. Arms are already in the

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wrong hands, that is one of the reasons why the balance has tilted

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as the chairman said last week, in favour of Assad. I wonder how you

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will judge as you monitor the CIA's arming of these rebels how it is

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working? Presumably you will rely on the intelligence coming from the

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CIA on a policy they are expect to go implement. They may not be

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entirely straight on telling you whether it is working? Of course it

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will be very difficult to monitor exactly how the provision of any

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material support is helping the opposition. But that's part of our

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responsibility to oversee anything that might be understaken. I will

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say this in response to the comments that were made. It is very

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seductive to want to help the opposition here to want to get

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involved and balance out what Hezbollah or the Russians are doing.

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That is why it is so easy to get involved in conflicts.

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Unfortunately we find as easy as it is to get in, it is very difficult

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to get out, to extricate yourself from a civil war. I fear we will

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simply be drawn further and further into this conflict. You know there

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is a question that we have the capability of doing this, we have

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the capability of deciding the course of this conflict in the

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sense of who wins militarily and who does not, but as we see in

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Afghanistan, as we saw in Iraq, the military equation is only one part

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of the equation. As General Dempsey pointed out so forcefully the other

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day, when you change the trajectory on the battlefield, that is not the

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end of the story, if it was, the war in Afghanistan would have been

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over a long time. You have to be concerned about what comes in after.

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Let me bring in Danielle Pletka, that is the core of with what

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General Dempsey is saying, I wonder what your judgment is, whatever the

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policy appears to be now, in another year's time the United

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States will be more deeply involved in Syria? No I don't know that we

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will be more deeply involved. I'm waiting for the President to

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actually implement the arms transfers that he suggested were

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going to happen. It is funny the Congressman suggests that it is

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easy to be seduced by ideas of helping people. Well I do find

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ideas of helping people rather seductive. But I think that the

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notion of getting inbetween Assad and Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda is not a

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terribly attractive one. On the other hand, I think that anyone who

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is, as the Congressman is, in ardent and a correct supporter of

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Israel and the relationship between the United States and Israel needs

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to understand that the Syrian conflict is not staying in Syria.

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It is already spilling over to Iraq, it is spilling over to Lebanon. It

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is spilling into Turkey and Jordan and Hezbollah is gaining a foothold

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on the hills in the Golan which will open a second front towards

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Israel. The notion that this isn't going to drag in other parties

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where we do have great interests I am afraid is a bit of a pipe dream.

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A final thought from Congressman Schiff, in your judgment, whatever

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the disagreements we have heard here, in your judgment do you think

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the United States will be more deeply involved in a year's time in

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Syria? Yes I do. If we take this step now of getting more militarily

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involved we will inevitably be called upon to do for more all the

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reasons mentioned. Once we make this a proxy war with Russia and

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Hezbollah. Once we put the credibility of the United States on

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the line to that degree, then the arguments become irresistable that

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we have to do more. If the battle is still not going well then we

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have to do more, we have to provide more weapons, meer sophisticated

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weapons. That is how you end -- more sophisticated weapons. That is

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how you end up with mission creep and get more involved in and

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getting sucked in. After two wars, drawing down from one and another

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one there is little appetite to get involved in a third war in yet

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another Muslim country. Thank you very much both of you.

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The first public glimpse of the new royal babey a few hours ago is the

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beginning of a life lived under the flash bulbs and the TV lens. The

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little Prince, unnamed as yet, is being born into a society where

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privacy is, if not dead, is difficult to achieve. His

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grandmother, Diana, was a victim of the the insatible appetite for

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information about the Royals. Since she died everybody who has a mobile

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phone is capable of publishing information. The Duke and Duchess

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of Cambridge looking like normal and happy parents, how normal can

:15:02.:15:06.

their baby's life possibly be. In a moment we will hear from David

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Starkey and Martin Bashir. First we report, as you might expect there

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is some flash photography. The new Prince makes his bow in the

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arms of his mother. If the movement had been choreographed to look

:15:23.:15:27.

relaxed and natural, and perhaps it was, it could scarcely have gone

:15:27.:15:32.

any better. The proud parents in their informal, co-ordinating gear.

:15:32.:15:40.

Body guards and flunkies well out of site. He has a God pair of lungs

:15:40.:15:46.

on him, that's for -- a good pair of lungs on him, that's for sure.

:15:46.:15:50.

He is a big boy, and we are working on a name. It is the first time we

:15:50.:15:56.

have seen him so we are catching up. It wasn't only the new father who

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handled reporter's questions. emotional, it is very emotional, it

:15:59.:16:04.

is such a special time, any parent I think will probably know what

:16:04.:16:08.

this feeling feels like. It is very special. Prince William was asked

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about the delay between the birth and when it was announced. Was that

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time for the family? It was, and I will remind him of his tardiness

:16:18.:16:23.

when he's older, I know how long you have been waiting out here.

:16:23.:16:27.

Hopefully you and the hospital can go back to normal and we can look

:16:27.:16:31.

after them. It has felt like a bit of a wait for the sight of the

:16:31.:16:34.

royal infant. In a spectacle witnessed only once in a generation,

:16:34.:16:40.

bulletins about a future heir to the throne are displayed on

:16:40.:16:50.
:16:50.:16:53.

Newsnight's called easal of news! Some day my Prince will come, but

:16:53.:17:01.

when? Through the song sultry day, on-lookers took in the scene, where

:17:01.:17:07.

photographers kept their watch of wandering lens. Caught between the

:17:07.:17:11.

irresistable force of air time to fill, and the immovable object of

:17:11.:17:16.

nothing to say, one man stood out. Daniella thank you very much, that

:17:16.:17:19.

won't stop the fevered speculation here but as far as what is going on

:17:19.:17:23.

at the hospital right now the news here is that we have no news.

:17:23.:17:27.

People have found your take on it refreshing, they look at you and

:17:27.:17:32.

see something has perhaps died in your eyes for the time being?

:17:32.:17:35.

hasn't dyed. I have covered the Royal Family for many years in a

:17:35.:17:39.

previous life. You have got to be very careful that you are not

:17:39.:17:42.

speculating to the point where you lose the viewers' trust. I speak as

:17:42.:17:47.

I find. I think you have to. If you walk outside a hospital, hour upon

:17:47.:17:52.

hour and nothing has happened, it is a bit difficult to sustain hour

:17:52.:17:58.

after hour. We are expected today do that and I will do my best at it,

:17:58.:18:04.

but I won't lie about with what I'm saying.

:18:04.:18:08.

The Prince was asked if he had changed add nappy yet. I have done

:18:08.:18:13.

that already. He's done a few already. It is very, very good.

:18:13.:18:18.

different from the home life of our own dear Queen who reportedly

:18:18.:18:26.

outsourced a lot of the hands on childcare to servants. Kate

:18:26.:18:32.

Middleton and Prince William put their DNA into a Kenwood blender,

:18:32.:18:38.

and the resulting smoothie is an extraordinary combination of royal

:18:38.:18:41.

and middle-class. The challenge for the pair is to enjoy bringing up a

:18:41.:18:51.
:18:51.:18:51.

child that is essentially the first royal middle-class baby. They will

:18:51.:19:00.

attempt to give this child as normal an upbringing, if you regard

:19:00.:19:05.

Weatherby, Ludgrove follow bid Eton as normal. In the current

:19:05.:19:08.

configuration of our Government it is normal and quite common. They

:19:08.:19:11.

will do that for this child, but I think there will be a lot of

:19:11.:19:21.
:19:21.:19:21.

Berkshire, and there will be a lot of Malborough rather than Eton. We

:19:21.:19:27.

may see them looking at upper middle-class rather than royal.

:19:27.:19:30.

Admittedly a prosperous middle- class father, Prince William

:19:30.:19:39.

strapped his son into his 4X4 and drove his family home from hospital.

:19:39.:19:45.

All unknowing, the newest royal has had his first encounter with a huge

:19:45.:19:50.

media interest, which has been repellent to members of hits family

:19:50.:19:54.

at times, which these days is a large part of what they are -- of

:19:54.:19:57.

his family at times, which these days is a large part of what they

:19:58.:20:03.

are here for. David Starkey is here in the studio and Martin Bashir,

:20:03.:20:06.

who famously interviewed Princess Diana for Panorama at a troubled

:20:06.:20:09.

time for the House of Windsor joins us from New York.

:20:10.:20:13.

First of all, Princess Diana lived her life under a great deal of

:20:13.:20:16.

scrutiny and was very unhappy about it at times. Do you think that's

:20:16.:20:21.

the kind of fate that awaits the new Prince? It could, but I think

:20:21.:20:27.

there are three encouraging signs. This is largely to do with Prince

:20:27.:20:31.

William. First of all Prince William has beefed up the media

:20:31.:20:35.

operation following his father Prince Charles to the extent that

:20:35.:20:39.

now they have a media and marketing department that's akin to any

:20:39.:20:44.

institution in the United Kingdom. No longer do we have a couple of

:20:44.:20:47.

thumpingly good chaps who have come down from military service that are

:20:47.:20:52.

dabbling a bit in the media, these are now professional media

:20:52.:20:58.

operators. Secondly, the Duchess of Cambridge shows no inclination to

:20:58.:21:02.

breach any of the royal protocols of privacy that of course people

:21:02.:21:05.

like myself and others in journalism were able to exploit

:21:05.:21:13.

with the late Princess of Wales. She doesn't display any willingness

:21:13.:21:17.

to disclose her feelings or troubles to anyone outside the

:21:17.:21:20.

Royal Family. The third reason why people don't need to be so

:21:20.:21:23.

pessimistic about this child's future in front of the lens is the

:21:23.:21:27.

British press is to some extent could youed and bowed following the

:21:27.:21:30.

phone hacking inquire -- cowed and bowed following the phone hacking

:21:30.:21:35.

inquiry. It was a text message on Prince William's cellphone that

:21:35.:21:39.

provoked inquiries about whether someone was hacking a member of the

:21:39.:21:43.

Royal Family's home. This was a reference to a knee injury. That

:21:43.:21:47.

then spawned all the other inquiries. This year alone we have

:21:47.:21:51.

seen public servants go to jail for selling information to national

:21:51.:21:56.

newspapers. I think that kind of example has probably discouraged

:21:56.:21:59.

people. In the past I'm sure some of the tabloids would have been

:22:00.:22:07.

thinking about offering a few quid to people who work at the Lindo

:22:07.:22:12.

Wing at St Mary's Paddington. They are discouraged in doing that at

:22:12.:22:16.

the moment because of Leveson and what we have seen. How do you view

:22:16.:22:21.

this, clearly this was a very beautifully choreographed bit of

:22:21.:22:25.

normality, and ordinariness. The father, we can run some pictures of

:22:25.:22:30.

some of those scenes, the father strapping the baby into the car.

:22:30.:22:35.

The immensely expensive 4X4. Very beautifully polished, which clearly

:22:35.:22:39.

we hadn't polished. But yes. That is part of the story that we are

:22:40.:22:44.

watching? I think it is. We have been talking, remember, about

:22:44.:22:49.

middle-class monarchy ever since Victoria and Albert, the embrace of

:22:49.:22:52.

middle-class values, the middle- class style of living, the contempt

:22:52.:22:58.

of the high aristocracy for the Victorian monarchy. They sneered

:22:58.:23:03.

that this royal "can I". What is new about The Middles and Kate and

:23:03.:23:09.

William is the reality -- the Middleton, and Kate and William is

:23:09.:23:13.

the reality is notching towards the myth. We are seeing this incredibly

:23:13.:23:17.

delicate balance between totally ordinary behaviour, William has got

:23:17.:23:21.

himself a new estuary accent, and at the same time the specialness,

:23:21.:23:25.

which we never want to lose. The myth is between those two things.

:23:25.:23:29.

Do you think, the way you said that makes me think that British people

:23:29.:23:34.

get both sides of it, they get their sort of just like us, but

:23:34.:23:38.

they are not at all like us? Celebrity is the same, you want

:23:38.:23:43.

them to be the same, but at the same time you fantasise about

:23:43.:23:52.

becking ham palace in exactly the - - BeckinghamPalace in exactly the

:23:52.:23:56.

same way. And Kate understands, saying every family having a baby

:23:56.:23:59.

goes through this. The reason family monarchy that we have got

:24:00.:24:07.

works so well is it taps into universal experiences, slightly

:24:07.:24:11.

tipsy grandmas, some what off uncles, boisterous younger brothers,

:24:11.:24:17.

and the whole process of birth, marriage and death. I want to bring

:24:17.:24:22.

that point about boisterous younger brothers, you are sure they will

:24:22.:24:26.

retain a degree of privacy. We also know the media is just not pulling

:24:26.:24:31.

in the editors and giving them a telling off and whatever Leveson

:24:31.:24:34.

will do to cow them. It is also Prince Harry having photographs

:24:34.:24:39.

taken in a hotel room in Las Vegas and published so everyone can see.

:24:39.:24:44.

It is no so easy to control? It is not, but it is not the most helpful

:24:45.:24:50.

thing playing strip poker with young ladies who are attractive and

:24:50.:24:54.

drunk that you met a few hours before commencing your game. That

:24:54.:24:57.

is not the most sensible thing. We accept this is a digital world, and

:24:57.:25:05.

all of these forces are at work. They apply to anybody who is a

:25:05.:25:08.

public figure. I was photographed recently coming out of a jazz club,

:25:08.:25:12.

and the photo-grat appeared to suggest that I wasn't entirely

:25:12.:25:16.

sober. I was actually and I had just been there on my own without

:25:16.:25:20.

any alcohol. That is part of what this means. But I do think keep in

:25:21.:25:25.

mind the power and force of Her Majesty the Queen throughout this.

:25:25.:25:29.

David Starkey and yourself were talking earlier about that

:25:29.:25:34.

difficult period, I did that interview and it was broadcast in

:25:34.:25:39.

1995. Windsor Castle fire happened, the divorce and death of Princess

:25:39.:25:42.

Diana. That was a terribly difficult time, one of the things

:25:42.:25:47.

that has been continuous has been Her Majesty's absolute

:25:47.:25:51.

unimpeachable character and service to the nation. And I think that

:25:51.:25:55.

British people feel well disposed to the Royal Family, principally

:25:55.:26:00.

because of her role. This is not an ordinary bunch of celebrities on to

:26:00.:26:05.

whom we can project our own aspirations and expectations. This

:26:05.:26:11.

has at the centre a woman who, as I said, has a profound character of

:26:11.:26:14.

commitment and service and duty that British people respect

:26:14.:26:18.

enormously. I want to bring in David Starkey on the other part of

:26:18.:26:23.

the family, which is the Middletons themselves. We touched on middle-

:26:23.:26:28.

class values, people say it is the first time commoners will be the

:26:28.:26:32.

grandparents to king. That isn't true? Look at the family tree of

:26:32.:26:37.

most of Henry's wife. Queen Elizabeth had a second cousin who

:26:37.:26:44.

was a blacksmith. Ranking a good deal below the Middletons. The

:26:44.:26:49.

Middletons are not all that ordinary middle-class, ordinary

:26:49.:26:57.

children don't send three children to Malborough at �26,000 a year.

:26:57.:27:03.

They are self-made people and people can relate to that? With the

:27:03.:27:09.

Middleton the myth of the middle- class monarchy has made another

:27:09.:27:14.

edging towards that. You are edging away from a great Victorian Vision

:27:14.:27:18.

of enormous households service, and a vast family, towards something

:27:18.:27:23.

which is much more like a modern nuclear family. That is an

:27:23.:27:27.

interesting point, because a Royal Courtier said to me that people

:27:27.:27:31.

love the monarchy and the Queen but they don't like too much of the

:27:31.:27:33.

extended family? That's right. But the really important thing about

:27:33.:27:37.

changing the rules of the succession, to the rage of

:27:37.:27:40.

assembled feminists, this is a boy, so we will have three kings in a

:27:40.:27:44.

row. But when you say that the eldest succeeds irrespective, why

:27:44.:27:49.

do we need HRH hangers on. To use that rather unkind term. Why do we

:27:49.:27:53.

need the Kents and Gloucesters any more, we don't. I think what we are

:27:53.:28:02.

going to see is a move ever closer to a standard upper-class family.

:28:02.:28:06.

It is only the upper-classes that marry, and marriage is key here. It

:28:07.:28:11.

is not quite pop but it will be more normal, with a gradual discard

:28:11.:28:15.

of the hangers on. Thank you very much both of you.

:28:15.:28:20.

Now, in the 1950s, what was billed at a new wonder drug, thalidomide

:28:20.:28:25.

was prescribeed to some pregnant women to help them overcome the

:28:25.:28:28.

symptoms of morning sick test, the side-effects were severe and the

:28:28.:28:33.

drug was banned. Now a new scientific study seen exclusively

:28:33.:28:38.

by Newsnight shows that thalidomide is still causing birth defects

:28:38.:28:45.

today. It has been relicensed in Brazil to help leprosy. It is

:28:45.:28:52.

believed 100 babies have been born with 200 -- since 205 with injuries

:28:52.:28:56.

caused by the thalidomide of the past. We were told this could never

:28:56.:29:04.

happen again. That no child would be so terribly damaged. No family

:29:04.:29:12.

forced to live with the stigma. But Alan is living proof that is not

:29:12.:29:19.

true. Thalidomide was meant to be been contained, controlled and made

:29:20.:29:25.

safe. But it is still mutilating limbs and continuitying lives. Alan

:29:25.:29:33.

lives in a small town in rural Brazil. His response to the wrong

:29:33.:29:39.

the drug has done him is to improvise and adapt, with an eight-

:29:39.:29:43.

year-old's energy and appetite for life. And he has ambitions too. His

:29:43.:29:51.

mother wants him to be a lawyer, but Alan has other plans. When you

:29:51.:29:56.

get older and you go and get a job, what do you think you want to do

:29:56.:30:06.
:30:06.:30:10.

with your life? TRANSLATION: professional footballer. First

:30:10.:30:14.

marketed in the late 1950s, thalidomide was sold as a wonder

:30:14.:30:22.

drug, so safe it was given to pregnant women for morning sickness.

:30:22.:30:26.

10,000 thalidomide babies were worn worldwide, more than 400 in Britain

:30:26.:30:32.

before it was officially withdrawn in 1962. But thalidomide never

:30:32.:30:36.

really went away. This factory produces about eight million pills

:30:36.:30:42.

a year. It is cheap and highly effective at streeting a disease

:30:42.:30:50.

that stalks Brazil's slums. Leprosy. Here health workers spread out

:30:50.:30:55.

across a favela near Rio deJanuary near row, showing people how to

:30:55.:31:01.

spot signs of the disease and encouraging them to come for free

:31:01.:31:08.

testing. Artur Custodio is from the National Leprosy Organisation.

:31:09.:31:14.

TRANSLATION: Brazil is number one in the world for leprosy cases,

:31:14.:31:19.

after Brazils Congo, and East Timor. In absolute numbers Brazil is

:31:19.:31:22.

behind India which has a bigger population. It varies around the

:31:22.:31:29.

country because leprosy is a disease of forgotten populations.

:31:29.:31:35.

On the surface Brazil may look like it is booming. It has the sixth-

:31:35.:31:41.

biggest economy in the world, larger than Britain's, and a GDP of

:31:41.:31:45.

�1.6 trillion. But there is a very different Brazil beyond the

:31:45.:31:50.

playgrounds of the elite. The gap between rich and poor is immense

:31:50.:31:55.

here. While Brazil has as many billionares as France and Spain put

:31:55.:32:01.

together, 16 million people here have to live on less than �1 a day.

:32:01.:32:05.

With poor healthcare and massive overcrowding. Perfect conditions

:32:05.:32:12.

for leprosy to thrive. Favelas crowd in on all the big

:32:12.:32:15.

cities here. People leaving the countryside gain a precarious

:32:15.:32:19.

foothold on the fringes of this society. The country's boom seems

:32:19.:32:25.

barely to have touched them. After years of Government inaction,

:32:25.:32:30.

leprosy is now being tackled head on. Mass education campaigns are

:32:30.:32:36.

reaching out into the slums. At this event even Miss Brazil puts in

:32:36.:32:42.

an appearence to encourage people to come and use this testing van.

:32:42.:32:45.

TRANSLATION: People give greater support and look for more

:32:45.:32:49.

information. We want to get the message out about early treatment.

:32:49.:32:52.

Because from the moment the person takes the medicine for the first

:32:52.:32:57.

time, he or she stops being able to pass on the disease to other people.

:32:57.:33:03.

So this information is very important. And come they do. A

:33:03.:33:07.

detailed medical history is taken, blood test too, then an examination

:33:07.:33:12.

by a doctor. For this man it is a quick diagnosis, much of his back

:33:12.:33:22.

is disfigured by the illness. But as more sufferers are identified,

:33:22.:33:27.

so the need for thalidomide grows. And at this clinic in the suburbs

:33:27.:33:30.

of Rio half the patients use the medicine. Such is the taboo that

:33:30.:33:36.

still cloaks the illness, we are asked not to show their faces. But

:33:37.:33:46.
:33:47.:33:47.

one patient, being examined by her doctor let us see how thalidomide

:33:47.:33:56.

has reduced the painful leisons on her arm. And she proudly shows us

:33:56.:34:01.

her son Pedro she had him before she began the treatment.

:34:01.:34:06.

TRANSLATION: I know that I need the medicine, that if I don't take the

:34:06.:34:09.

contraceptive pills I could get pregnant and have a disabled child.

:34:10.:34:13.

I don't think it is fair to bring a disabled kid into the world just

:34:13.:34:17.

because of being careless. I have already had my son, who is my whole

:34:17.:34:22.

life, and I don't think it would be right to have another child who was

:34:22.:34:27.

disabled. But she believes others aren't as careful as she is.

:34:27.:34:30.

TRANSLATION: No because if they were more careful there wouldn't be

:34:30.:34:34.

children with so many defects. There are people who don't think

:34:34.:34:42.

about their child, just about themselves. Thalidomide is kept

:34:42.:34:48.

looked away in a secure room. Dr Fernanda Vianna is shown how it is

:34:48.:34:55.

stored and dispensed. She's an epidemiologyist, a chemist who has

:34:55.:34:58.

carried out the largest study in the effects of the drug. How

:34:58.:35:04.

dangerous potentially is this drug? This drug it is possible to produce

:35:04.:35:13.

malformations, very difficult to manage throughout life.

:35:13.:35:19.

analysed 17 million births between 2005-2010. The study shows in

:35:20.:35:23.

places where more thalidomide is used there is a higher than

:35:23.:35:32.

expected number of birth defects. TRANSLATION: So we found after the

:35:32.:35:37.

six years of research a strong correlation, a significant and

:35:37.:35:41.

positive correlation between the amount of thalidomide dispensed and

:35:41.:35:46.

the type of congenital defects and the occurrance of these defects and

:35:46.:35:53.

in particular limb reduction reeffects. The research also showed

:35:53.:35:57.

the highest number of cases were in areas of extreme poverty, where

:35:57.:36:02.

leprosy is pref vent. She admits to being shocked by the -- prevalent.

:36:02.:36:09.

She admits to be shocked by the results. TRANSLATION: We had 100

:36:09.:36:14.

cases in six years similar to thalidomide syndrome. We couldn't

:36:14.:36:18.

evaluate each case, we couldn't say all cases are thalidomide syndrome.

:36:18.:36:24.

But this type of defect is very rare. These are just some of the

:36:24.:36:29.

forms that a woman last to fill out. There should be tight controls when

:36:29.:36:34.

thalidomide is prescribeed. A woman must be using two forms of birth

:36:34.:36:37.

control and agree to regular pregnancy tests, but the system

:36:37.:36:40.

isn't fail safe. Some patients don't understand the prestrixs and

:36:40.:36:47.

in Brazil it is common for people to share medication. Are these

:36:47.:36:52.

controls enough? We have some problems and some situations that

:36:52.:37:00.

some patients don't have a lot of information. The exchange of the

:37:00.:37:05.

information is so difficult in some situations that the physicians

:37:05.:37:09.

explains but the patient doesn't understand so it is difficult in

:37:09.:37:16.

some situations. This is what seems to have happened to Alan. His

:37:16.:37:21.

father had leprosy and was taking thalidomide. His mother says she

:37:21.:37:24.

was feeling ill and took several different pills from the medicine

:37:24.:37:31.

cabinet, without knowing she was pregnant. TRANSLATION: I got it and

:37:31.:37:35.

took it when I was feeling sick, not well. So I got the medicine and

:37:35.:37:39.

took it. I had already taken others like paracetamol to make myself

:37:39.:37:43.

feel better without knowing I was pregnant. His father said that the

:37:43.:37:46.

doctor didn't tell him that women couldn't take it. He said they

:37:46.:37:54.

didn't tell him anything about it. For doctors who use the drug every

:37:54.:38:00.

day, there is no dilemma. How good is it as a drug? The best.The

:38:00.:38:05.

best? For this type of reaction it is the best drug. There will be

:38:05.:38:10.

many people in my country who say I'm shocked that thalidomide is

:38:10.:38:19.

still used. You have the ghosts of thalidomide in the 50s, I

:38:19.:38:28.

understand, but they should forget their ghosts. It is a drug. We have

:38:28.:38:38.
:38:38.:38:38.

other drugs why thalidomide, only thalidomide. I think these ghosts

:38:38.:38:46.

will disappear as soon as the older people die. Such is the need for

:38:46.:38:52.

thalidomide that the Government has more than doubled its order from

:38:52.:38:57.

this factory. TRANSLATION: Nowadays there is a myth about thalidomide.

:38:57.:39:02.

People are afraid of thalidomide. People are afraid of taking it and

:39:02.:39:07.

people are afraid of being anywhere near it. But I think with

:39:07.:39:12.

information and publicity about the benefits that thalidomide brings to

:39:12.:39:16.

patients, this myth can be overcome. Because the benefits outweigh the

:39:16.:39:21.

risks. No-one is saying that thalidomide

:39:21.:39:24.

should be banned, it is far too important a medicine for that. But

:39:25.:39:30.

this is a deeply unequal country. It is the poor who suffer most from

:39:30.:39:34.

leprosy, and because of bad education and inadequate healthcare

:39:34.:39:41.

it is the children of the poor most likely to be damaged by thalidomide.

:39:41.:39:45.

Thalidomide is a terrifying part of medical history, that it is still

:39:45.:39:54.

able to mutilate young bodies today will horrify many. The complex

:39:54.:39:59.

causes makes poverty with disease, ignorance and simple bad luck. Alan

:39:59.:40:03.

is living proof that more than 50 years after thalidomide was first

:40:03.:40:05.

withdrawn there is a second generation of children who are

:40:06.:40:14.

having to live with the terrible damage it can cause. Now, we can

:40:14.:40:18.

assume that with grandparents like Prince Charles and the Middletons,

:40:18.:40:22.

not to mention a great-grand mother of some influence, that the new

:40:22.:40:26.

royal baby can count on a considerable amount of financial

:40:26.:40:31.

system from the Bank of Granny and Granddad. So do others,

:40:31.:40:35.

grandparents are paying for mortgages, holidays, and even

:40:35.:40:39.

school uniforms. They shell almost �2,000 a year to support family

:40:39.:40:43.

life. According to a new report the grey pound is keeping a big role in

:40:43.:40:49.

keeping families afloat. For years we have been told that the baby-

:40:49.:40:53.

boomers have had it all, secure jobs, final salary pensions and

:40:53.:40:59.

often a second or third home thanks to a massive housing boom. But is a

:40:59.:41:05.

quiet and voluntary redistribution going on between the generations? A

:41:05.:41:09.

survey by GP Morgan suggests more than a third of grandparents

:41:09.:41:13.

contribute to their families' living costs, helping pay for

:41:13.:41:18.

mortgages, school clothes and even the family car. It adds up to

:41:18.:41:25.

almost �1500 a year, plus another �1,000 of free childcare. So is

:41:25.:41:29.

that sustainable? Or even desirable. Or is redistribution from old to

:41:29.:41:35.

young really the Government's job. By scrapping free TV licenses and

:41:35.:41:38.

increasing the retirement age, or even higher taxes on pensions. All

:41:38.:41:46.

have been suggested to pass money to a struggling next generation. We

:41:46.:41:49.

have the editor with saga magazine aimed at the over 50s, and we have

:41:49.:41:54.

the author of Jilted Generation, a book about how those in their 20s

:41:54.:41:59.

and 30s may be losing out. Do you think we understatement how much

:41:59.:42:05.

grandparents do? I think it is a very visceral thing to want to give

:42:05.:42:11.

money to your family. I think that when times are hard the impact that

:42:11.:42:15.

grandparents can have on keeping families afloat is greater than

:42:15.:42:20.

when we are going through good times. Do you think that however

:42:20.:42:24.

much people in their 20s and 30s feel they may be losing out,

:42:24.:42:28.

grandparents are filling up a lot of the holes in our social life and

:42:28.:42:32.

apparently our financial life as well? And families will be families

:42:32.:42:36.

as Emma has said, you can't really legislate against that, that would

:42:36.:42:41.

be utterly ensane. The question is really why do young families in

:42:41.:42:51.
:42:51.:42:52.

their late 20s and early 30s need this kind of help. Why if they are

:42:52.:42:55.

in work are they not able to do these things themselves without

:42:55.:42:59.

relying on older parents. answer to that is these are really

:42:59.:43:03.

hard times for everybody, as you say families will do the best they

:43:03.:43:06.

can, grandparents will do the best they can. There is no going back to

:43:07.:43:12.

the golden age where the baby- boomers got MIRAS and free

:43:12.:43:15.

university places, it is not going to happen again? Why not. The

:43:15.:43:19.

question is this, we know that young adults today are suffering

:43:19.:43:23.

massively in terms of housing costs, if they want to buy a house they

:43:23.:43:26.

have to pay over the odds for it. Historically speaking if they are

:43:26.:43:28.

renting they are paying over the odds in the private sector and

:43:29.:43:32.

there isn't enough social housing to go around and yet we don't, we

:43:32.:43:35.

are not really doing anything about the housing issue in this country

:43:35.:43:39.

except to chuck some loan guarantees at it, which all

:43:39.:43:42.

economyists agree will boost the price of those who already own

:43:43.:43:49.

homes. What do you think of this? In a way grandparents are

:43:49.:43:51.

redistributing some wealth, is that the Government's role? Should they

:43:51.:43:57.

do more about it? Or should people get used to the fact? The key word

:43:57.:44:02.

in the introduction was the word "voluntary", people are much

:44:02.:44:06.

happier choosing where they give their money. So they give it to

:44:06.:44:11.

their families and to the very generations that we're talking

:44:11.:44:18.

about. The other thing is that they are actually taking, if you like,

:44:18.:44:25.

the value of their houses, this is what is enabling them to give the

:44:25.:44:28.

money. But they have the security that perhaps owning your own home

:44:28.:44:32.

and having paid off the mortgage gives them. Disposable income in

:44:32.:44:37.

the over 60s is now greater than people in their 20s, is that the

:44:37.:44:40.

Government's job to change that or should they just say that is fine?

:44:40.:44:45.

There is no doubt that this is a very lucky generation. I couldn't

:44:45.:44:51.

possibly argue against that, it is a sort of whatever, it is a perfect

:44:51.:44:56.

storm of the last of the final salary pension, and the property

:44:56.:45:02.

boom. But it isn't going to last. Already final salary pensions are

:45:02.:45:09.

dying. Even I'm in my early 60s, I'm not going to get that. So this

:45:09.:45:17.

isn't going to last. When these the wealth from this important is

:45:17.:45:22.

passed down it is exactly filtered down to the very people that we

:45:23.:45:27.

want to help. About the sort of things being handed down things.

:45:27.:45:31.

When people are having families it is biologically limited, if that

:45:31.:45:35.

doesn't happen for another 30, 40 years then that generation then

:45:35.:45:38.

what do they do. The other aspect of this is what you have been

:45:38.:45:42.

saying underlies the point really, it is well look yes we have done

:45:42.:45:48.

very well, but you know get off our backs now none the less, the future

:45:48.:45:51.

will look after itself, but we don't want to pay any cost towards

:45:51.:45:55.

making that happen. There isn't a plan in this country actually to

:45:56.:45:59.

figure out what we are going to do over the next 20 years. We do have

:45:59.:46:02.

a plan about the ageing society and the social care costs, we are

:46:02.:46:05.

starting to put that together. We don't have a plan about housing, we

:46:05.:46:09.

don't have a plan about how to get extra school places now there is a

:46:09.:46:13.

mini-baby-boom going on at this point in time. We are really,

:46:13.:46:17.

really bad in this country about future planning. The Office of

:46:17.:46:19.

Budget Responsibility last week was saying this is a problem that

:46:19.:46:23.

affects all of us. Looking forward healthcare costs for an ageing

:46:23.:46:26.

population, increasing pension costs, public pension costs are

:46:26.:46:29.

going to suck money out of the economy. There will be a black hole.

:46:29.:46:35.

Do you not see any argument for either taxing those who work of a

:46:35.:46:39.

certain age or taxing people who are older to help pay for the

:46:39.:46:42.

younger generation to get a better standard of living? But I don't

:46:42.:46:47.

think you can run a taxation system, you can't put in a special tax rate

:46:47.:46:52.

just because people are over 60s and prosperous. The answer is there

:46:52.:46:57.

are perfectly good tax bands and if you are working you pay tax on it.

:46:57.:47:01.

Yeah the over 60s already enjoy special tax and favours, one

:47:01.:47:05.

example, national insurance, if you are over 65 you don't pay national

:47:05.:47:10.

insurance, why? The reason is you can claim a pension, it would be

:47:10.:47:18.

ludicrous to pay a pension and give it back. A million over 60s work.

:47:18.:47:24.

There are small ano mam lease in the system. I will stick my head on

:47:24.:47:29.

to the block of the bus pass and say I do think it is a huge

:47:29.:47:37.

anomally of wealthy pensioners getting free bus passes, et cetera.

:47:37.:47:41.

Prince William says they are still working on a name, here is a

:47:41.:47:44.

reminder of a few options on the table. This is curtesy of a

:47:44.:47:50.

children's programme that all grown-ups secretly watch, BBC's

:47:50.:48:00.
:48:00.:48:22.

Good evening, certainly not done with the storms yet. In fact in the

:48:22.:48:26.

last few hours it has certainly been very thundery across northern

:48:26.:48:29.

parts of Britain. As far as Wednesday goes, I don't think the

:48:29.:48:33.

thunder showers and the downpours will be as widespread as what we

:48:33.:48:37.

have had in the last day or so. In Northern Ireland certainly a chance

:48:37.:48:39.

of some showers growing through the course of the afternoon, that is

:48:39.:48:44.

the case also for parts of Scotland. I think the morning across eastern

:48:44.:48:47.

Scotland and the borders will be wetter and more thundery than the

:48:47.:48:50.

afternoon. Looking at the rest of the country, the heat of the day

:48:50.:48:54.

will develop big shower clouds and one or two locations, but they will

:48:54.:48:58.

be well scattered. That means there will be plenty of fine and dry

:48:58.:49:01.

weather, temperatures will get up to around 25 degrees, still very

:49:01.:49:06.

humid. These thunder storms we have recently had, they haven't cleared

:49:06.:49:11.

away, all that humidity. Quite often when we talk about a thundery

:49:11.:49:13.

breakdown, we mean fresher conditions reach the country. That

:49:13.:49:17.

has not really been the case. Nor will it be the case on Thursday. We

:49:17.:49:22.

will see the area of rain splashing its way across the UK. Thunder

:49:22.:49:25.

storms too and thunderstorms with sunshine to the south. Look at the

:49:25.:49:30.

temperatures still well into the 20s, we are not getting that fresh

:49:30.:49:33.

The CIA arms Syrian rebels. The strange life of a royal baby. Thalidomide in the Brazilian slums. And baby boomers bailing out their grandchildren.


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