26/07/2013 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, presented by Anita Anand.

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. The arch British of Canterbury vows to provide an alternative to


the payday loan companies. How morally superior can a church be


whose investment rules allow it to profit from arms, pornography and


is it really wise for the modern church to enter the murky world of


money lending? Also tonight the generals in Egypt


mobilise thousands of supporters on to the streets. So is the army


looking to smother its opponents? What a brilliant piece of skulling,


they were marvellous. A year on from the London Olympics, why are


so few women involved in sport. We asked an olympian to investigate.


From an early age I developed a passion for football, rowing,


tennis, but the health survey for England shows that only 12% of 14-


year-old girls do enough physical activity to benefit their health.


Good evening. The Archbishop of Canterbury's intention to bring


money lending, not just on to the steps of the temple, but into the


church itself should have dominated the headlines this week. But


instead Justin Welby was left feeling embarrassed and irritate.


He told the chief executive of the payday loan company, Wonga.com,


that he would put him out of business by facilitating Credit


Unions up and down the country. Then last might, to his woreor, he


found out his own church invests in one of Wonga's key financial


backers. More morally questionable investments have since been


discovered. So, is the church in a The three monotheist religions all


have a great deal to say about the lending of money. And ever since


this man took offence to the interest rates on offer in the


Jerusalem temple, Christians have been lensive to the sin of usury.


Discovering yesterday we had investments in Wonga was very


embarrassing. There is no two ways about it. I can't escape that. It


doesn't alter what we think about the situation, or our commitment to


supporting and working with others to build the Credit Union movement


and to build alternative sources of community finance, particularly in


the deprived areas, it is not what I would have liked to find out.


Payday loan companies on the high street and internet lent out more


than �2 billion last year. The best-known name in the industry,


Wonga, spent �24 million on advertising in just the last 12


months. Will thousands of stretched customers really swap all that and


turn to the church to get them through to their next wage packet.


Now Justin Welby says he wants to put the likes of Wonga out of


business. Not by supporting extra regulation, but by encouraging


competition and driving down interest rates. We think you can


probably do it for an equivalent annual rate of 70-80%. Which again


is? A huge sum of money. But it is In Weymouth in Dorset we get some


idea of what the bishop's plan might look like. Here the church


works with the local Credit Union, providing basic loan and saving


products for people unlikely to get joy from the high street bank. The


church acts almost like a local branch, letting residents take out


loans and money almost from the pulpit. The Credit Union is people


helping people, you get together and save together and lend. If in


that sense it is strengthening communities. Why do people use


payday lenders? Because they have a dramatic change of life


circumstances, they lose a job, and they have no back-up, they go to


the payday lender. If you encourage people to spend, they build up a


pot and for the rainy day they have something to fall back on. It has


worked in the Republic of Ireland, almost half people have signed up


to the Credit Union. For some in the payday industry the idea of


religious competition is not particularly alarming. No, purely


because there is a need for the product in the market. If we didn't


exist people would go to backstreet lending. I would like to know if


the Archbishop think it is better to go to illegal lenders if they


can't repay they may get physically injured, it is not a world we want


to go back to. Wouldn't the world be a better place if there was no


poverty and everybody had a meal and fresh water and illnesses, it


is not real though. The world is the way it is, people need money


for emergencies, that is why we are here. The banks aren't providing it,


But, as bishop Welby knows, the financial industry, like the church,


is a complex beast. The Church of England controls more than �5


billion worth of investments. It now turns out some of that cash is


funding one of Wonga's key financial backers. The church is


always going to be compromised if it continues to try to maximise its


profit. It is going to get caught out, because it is going to get its


hands burnt. What people really object to is it isn't walking the


talk, it is seen as hypocritical. The alternative is to put its money


where its mouth is and invest in projects to do good which are about


adding value to society rather than maximising profits and minimising


damage. The church's advisory board That doesn't stop Lambeth Palace


funding other large companies with a questionable ethical record.


Newsnight has learned the church's pension fund currently owns shares


in Google and Vodaphone, whose tax arrangements have both been


criticised recently, and in multinational mining and energy


firms. After the latest payday row the Archbishop now says he wants


the church's investment guidelines to be reviewed.


With me to discuss the clerical- capital relationship are two men


helpfully both called Giles, first Giles Fraser, normer Canon


Chancellor at St Paul's Cathedral, and Giles from Instant Payday


Direct. Who decided that a 3% investment in porn would be OK with


the Lord, but 4% might push them over the edge? It is extraordinary,


we need to review where our money goes our investment for our pension


funds. But to be honest it is a very complicated area. You invest


in one thing, you seem to invest in everything else. If you get


involved in the markets it does seem that you know you invest in a


company that invests in other things, it is difficult to keep


your hand clean. The truth of the matter is if you were only


interested in keeping your hands clean you wouldn't get out into the


world. It is embarrassing, this really has to be changed. I think


the church has to be not quite so bothered about its own reputation


and more bothered about getting out into the world and changing things.


That is what is going on. Are you looking at a whole scale


purification and purging ceremony, washing your hands. Things you are


investing in now, oil companies, and companies that don't like to


pay tax? That needs to be changed. Changed or given up? We have the


Archbishop of Canterbury who understands the ways of the world,


being a former banker, with his heart in the right place, he will


make a difference to this. We shouldn't be investing in these


sorts of companies, we need to have a wholesale review, that has been


ordered. I want to know how far the remit of moral crusade goes with


the Church of England, the front page of the Telegraph at the moment


has a story, it is, if you like, the pornography Tsar for the


Government, Claire Perry calling on the church to boycott Google or


invest in Google any more because they are not doing enough. They are


not doing enough to stop the kind of pornography that she is very


much against from being available? I agree with that. One thing I have


to say, this whole business about where the church has its money


shouldn't obscure the real good that has been going on this week


about the church addressing these issues of payday lenders. This is a


very, very important issue. In a place like my parish where people


are trapped in really terrible debt. That debt at very high rates of


interest. The idea that the church is getting involved in that is a


very good thing. Let's turn to Giles Coutts, you must be loving


this, it is normally your lot accused of being immoral, here we


are having a moral chat over here? For the man on the street they are


a little bit confused you have the Archbishop coming out and naming a


particular payday lender, it does annoy me that one company has got


all the attention, and then to find out the ainvestment is in there.


isn't lovely attention? Unfortunately for the Archbishop I


feel a little bit sorry for, he has been ill-advised in not knowing


about this before he has made an announcement to attack a particular


payday lender. Let me put this to, at least this lot are showing they


have a conscience, they are wriggling and spinning around


trying to make sense of what has been going on and giving


commitments that they might change things but what 820% APR? I mean,


surely you should be doing a little more squirming when these numbers


have been brought so sharply into the light of day? It is an


annoyance of mine, and every lender will say the same, we are very low,


that is 66p a day. You have major lenders, such as the Archbishop has


mentioned at 5,000%. But you are not disputing 820%? That is 66p a


day. Every lender has to have an operating cost, that's themselves


borrowing the money, plus the administration of lending it out,


and the risk of actually not returning that money. Here is the


problem, you are the acceptable face of this industry in a way, and


the unacceptable face won't ever sit in that chair. They won't be


questioned in this way. That's one of the problems. The other problem


is as an Friday 50% of your money is made from people who can't pay


the loans back initially. That is a real problem. Your business model


of the payday loan industry is for people to default, for them to


actually, you are building into what your business is people's


failure and misery to pay the money back that's the moral problem?


These loans have been going on for four years, the Government and the


OFT have been well aware of the loans. They could have stepped in


sooner with a rulebook to say there are principle rules that say they


aren't allowed to roll over. An annoying thing is they don't do


employier's checks, you have talk about people being unemployed, why


lend to an unemployed people. won't hold you to account for


people who do that. What is interesting is the church will step


into the breach, how exactly is your campaign going to work?


way I understand it, it is a fairly long-term campaign, we're not going


to be the money lenders in this situation. We're going to be


providing our facilities, our churches, and our expertise. It is


part of your long-term plan is to facilitate Credit Unions, and.


Facilitate. And we hear the church is prepared to lend money as well?


I haven't heard that, I don't know that is the case. What I understand


to be going on here is the church will use its outlets, we have more


outlets than the banks have, to actually help encourage Credit


Unions. This is not a command and control thing from the centre, this


will be something that grows organically from the ground.


have been told that the church is very prepared where it can't


facilitate a Credit Union to step into the breach and say they will


lend the money. That begs the question how are you going to look


somebody in the face and say I know you are telling me you can't afford


to pay the gas bill tomorrow we want this money back? That is a


real problem. Why are you getting involved in this? I think it is a


real problem. If we can undercut very substantially, in terms of


interest rates. With a Credit Union it is like 28% or going up to 40%,


the difference between that and 5,000% is a major difference for


people. Are you worried about them putting you out of business? Not at


all. Because it is going to probably damage them more so than


anything else. The church is one place that people will always see


as a solid reputation. Going around and collecting money on the doors


to say you have not paid us, number one. We have also proven that we


are the cheapest in the market on- line, and it so far people are


still going elsewhere. People aren't searching. We will leave it


there, Giles Coutts and Giles Fraser thank you very much indeed.


Later in the programme, one year after the Olympics, why is there


still a gap between men and women in the country when it comes to


sport? Thousands are protesting on the streets of Cairo tonight. Most


have turned out to support the generals who currently run the


country, clashes with supporters of the ousted President Mohamed Morsi


have also been taking place and some people have been killed. Mr


Morsi is the country's first democratically elected President,


and he's still being held by the military. New allegations were


levelled against him today alleging close links with the Palestinian


militant group, Hamas. The UN has called for his immediate release,


but it really doesn't look like that's going to happen any time


soon. First of all, tell us what happened on the streets of Egypt


today? Well essentially the military called for protests in


support of what they had done. And just eased the crowds out on toe


the streets, they cancelled the very popular soap operas, Ramadan


soap operas on TV to help the cause along. There was always the


potential for trouble, there are still many thousands of people,


particularly after Friday prayers, who support the Muslim Brotherhood,


President Morsi, who was removed from power. And there was a natural


potential for clashes n Alex sand dreeia, the port city of -- Alex


sand dreeia, the port city of Egypt, there were bad incidents, five


people killed and several dozen wounded. It is wrong to say that is


an every-day event, but since the takeover by the military more than


200 people have been killed in this type of political violence. Where


does it leave the transition to democracy? It leaves the plan and


the messy realities and how they might evolve, they are not


necessarily the same thing. We know the plan, the acting President,


Adly Mansour, laid it out a couple of weeks ago, it involved in the


first place convening a group of people to amend the constitution,


that was supposed to happen a few days ago, they did get together and


started to tinker with the constitution. The first area there


for altering the quality of Egyptian democracy as how they


alter the constitution. The people of Egypt will decide on the 20th of


November, we are told, under this plan, whether or not they accept


the new constitution and assuming they say, yes, then this will be a


parliamentary election campaign leading to elections early in


February 2014. At some point after that there is meant to be a new


President elected. But the key thing is will the military try to


influence the Electoral Commission, the courts, other things we saw in


the run-up to the presidential election, in particular last year


to actually shape this process and make sure that only its chosen


people get through to the ballot box. There is one missing phrase in


all of this, the Muslim Brotherhood? Do they figure in the


new democracy or not? When the takeover happened, and of course


there were statements of concern and condemnation from overseas, it


was said, oh yeah when we hold these elections anybody can run,


including the Muslim Brotherhood. People who support them can't help


noticing things like today's news that charges are being levelled


against ex-President Morsi, on these ground of being too close


with Hamas and being involved in a jail break where two people were


killed. They fear a show trial may be in the offing and the


criminalisation of their organisation may be one of the


things the military will do if it wants to gain support. They will


ask whether or not they will be able to run. How the interim


Government manages these next steps, led by the military, will be the


most telling factor about how quickly the transition to democracy


will, in fact, occur. There has been both good and bad things of


what we have seen so far. The degree to which the Muslim


Brotherhood will be willing to and allowed to engage in political


dialogue will be one of the most telling factors and one of the key


things to watch in the coming weeks and months. We can guarantee with


that sort of scenario continuing street violence and tensions and


manoeuvrering between the army and the Muslim Brotherhood.


A year on from 2012 Usain Bolt of back in action tonight, in the


Olympic Stadium in Stratford. He hasn't lost his lustre, nor


memories of the game. According to a ComRes poll for the BBC, more


than two thirds of people believe the �8.77 billion cost of the


Olympics was worth the money. Even though this was the games that made


icons of Ennis, Pendleton, Grainger and Trott, was it the breakthrough


games for British women? One gold medallist has been finding out for


It was billed as the women's Olympics. More women's medals up


for grabs than ever before. The first games where women could take


part in every sport. We were inspiring a generation. For the


first time Great Britain had nearly equal numbers of male and female


athletesk but women won only 36% of the medals. There are more medal


events for men than women. But in the two other top-performing


countries, China and the US, women outperformed the men. Part the


problems, it seems, is men are just more active than women. The Active


People's Survey, carried out by Sport England suggests only 30% of


people do 30 minutes of physical activity a week, that is compared


to 40% of men. That is a problem that starts to develop as early as


primary school. At the age of eight or nine boys and girls do similar


levels of physical activity. By the time they reach 10 or 11 a gap has


started to appear. I grew up in a really sporty family, my parents


always encouraged me to be active. From an early age I developed a


passion for football, rowing, tennis, but the health survey for


England shows that only 12% of 14- year-old girls do enough physical


activity to benefit their health. In your teenage years everyone


feels very self-conscious so the degree in which you are forced to


take part in front of boys and what you are wearing, a lot needs to be


done around sheer encouragement. Around that related to role


modelling. For girls who get involved in sport still, they are


going against the grain of what their peers will be doing. It is


alarming that lots of girls say to us that sport is really for boys.


They certainly recognise that boys get more encouragement. We have a


cultural issue to deal with. Even within that context there is a lot


to be done. Get up, get down. Choice of


activity is one thing that help. This lunchtime zumba club at a


school in Stockport gets more than 70 girls turning up each week. The


aim is to build their confidence and getting them doing something


they might continue after they leave school. I'm not very good at


sports where other people can beat me. Dancing and zumba are sports


where you can be yourself and be free. It is not necessarily that


the most sporty things, but it get you having fun and you don't


necessarily have to think about if you are doing it right. It doesn't


matter if you go wrong you can enjoy it. Boys generally prefer


sports. They like the whole team aspect of it, and it is like


getting stuck in, girls seem to be a bit more reserved, worried about


getting the rules wrong. Women's Sport and Fitness


Foundation wants schools to make sure all-girls, not just the


talented few are active. Are activities like zumba just as


important as competitive-based sports. If you get involved in


something and start to be fitter and healthier, the evidence is you


will start taking up other activities and maybe sport, maybe


team sport, the important thing for most people is being active and I


think that should be the priority. At grassroots level sports which


increase participation are rewarded with more funding from the national


body Sport England. Netball is one of the few women's sports that has


managed to grow. The number of women playing has gone up by more


than 30% over the past four years. Netball England say it is because


they managed to target women who played at school and want a


friendly low-key environment to take it up again. I played at


school and within I left in year 11 I hadn't played since, and I came


back last year and started up again. What made you start sport at that


age? When I went to college and boys and socialising, I lost


interest. And then having my own kids and watching them and then


missing it really just spurred me on to think no I will get back into


it. I was encouraging her and I was thinking I'm not doing anything


myself. Sport England says it is focused on getting more women


active, it admits it is difficult to calculate whether investment


benefit men and women equally. of it is easy because some sports


are dominated by women, like netball, and some are evenly


balanced like swimming and cycling. A lot of the money we invest in


grassroots sports goes into facilities. Although we are very


clear those facilities can't discriminate in any way, neither


can we say it is absolutely balanced men and women, or


necessarily dictate the flow. It can be hard to calculate. I think


we need to keep challenging ourselves, are we doing enough for


women? Is the investment we are putting in really reaching men and


women in a balanced way? In America the success of female athletes has


been attributed to legislation called "title 9". The law bans sex


discrimination in any school or college receiving federal funds.


The result was a ten-fold increase in the number of girls playing


sport. Funding is one thing, but there are other issues. Women's


sport receives just 0.5% of all sports sponsorship in the UK and


gets less than 5% of the total sports coverage. The media has a


huge role to play in raising awareness of women's sport and


promoting female role models. It was only after the games when I


visited schools that I understood what the tag line "inspire a


generation" really meant. It is an easy thing to say but athletes,


governing bodies and the media need to follow up on that promise. If


they don't there is a risk that the gap between British girls and boys


in sport will never close in schools or at the Olympics. Joining


us now from Bristol is Samantha Murray, who won silver in the


modern pentathlon, the very last event at the 2012 Olympics. Thank


you very much for being with us. If it is true what we have just heard


in the report, that girls seem to be hard wired to steer away from


competition at a certain age, isn't it a bit hopeless, how do you go


about rewiring? A lot is to do with the media, what is conveyed to


young girls from a very young age in terms of what's acceptable and


what's popular to be. People, a lot of girls I remember when I was at


school everyone becomes quite self- conscious when they get to 11 or 12


in their teens, and that means we don't want to be a part of


competitive sport and rembering back to my time at school the


shower facilities, the changing rooms, it was all quite grimy. It


did put me off the idea of getting sweaty during a PE lesson and going


on to a maths lesson afterwards, when like image and fitting in with


the crowd was more a priority at the time. So I think that something


that is quite important for young girls is creating a positive image


about female sports people. And that was something we definitely


saw at the Olympic Games, however, I don't feel as an athlete that was


really harnessed and embraced well enough after the games. That is


fascinating, is it that girls who are at school, particularly if they


are at mixed schools, they shouldly get the notion that to be


competitive and aggressive is some how to be less feminine, is that


what happens? Definitely, I definitely get that impression, and


I have been to a lot of schools after the Olympic Games, and I have


seen that so many girls are set back from being involved in the


competitive sports and getting stuck in, in PE. That self-


consciousness and the image is so important to them. I think the


media have a big role to play in what they convey in terms of what


it is to be female and what it is to be a powerful female. That's one


of the messages I suppose that comes from the media, but the other


is how much coverage there is. Now somebody who runs a channel will


say I will only run it if people will watch it and they don't want


to watch it? That is a Catch 22 I think. Because although you know we


have seen the woman's World Cup -- Women's World Cup has been aired on


BBC, that is fantastic. If not enough people watch it the demand


isn't there and the media won't put it on TV or in the newspapers. It


is a difficult thing. It is a culturalish u, we do need to try to


improve everything and get people more interested in women's sports


and get the women more interested, more competitive, and in doing so


adapt that image that we see in the media. The media is a driving force


and it can massively change young people's perspectives about what is


important. It can give them the confidence to pursue avenues that


they could be really interested in but they just feel shy about


because it might not seem the popular thing to do. One of the


interesting things is in America is they changed the law and made


things 50-50, would you like to see that? It would have a knock-on


effect, it wouldn't do any harm. Something that should be done is


more schemes and initiatives in schools. It would be great if role


models and Olympic medallists could go into schools and specialised


coaches and run some programmes, some lessons where they teach


taekwondo, Judo, modern pentathlon, Olympic sports not always


accessible to young girls and accessible to young girls and


students. Thank you very much. Now That is all we have time for this


week, we are back on Monday of course, we will leave you with some


classic music from the Rolling Stones from 1971, why? Why not? Sir


Mick Jagger turned 70 today, good night.


# Get down on your knees brown sugar


# How come you taste so good # Ah get down on the ground


# Brown sugar # Just like a young girl should


# I bet your momma was a tent Queen # And all your girlfriends were


sweet 16 # I'm no schoolboy


# But I know what I like # You should heard me just around


midnight Good evening, the weekend weather


prospects a bit mixed to say the least. I suppose broadly sunshine


and showers on Saturday. But rather more extensive rain rather than


showers across some southern areas as the day wears on, it is more of


a mix across the northern half of the UK. Particularly Scotland,


Northern Ireland and northern England. Inbetween the showers,


when you get the sunshine coming through, it should feel pleasantly


warm. Temperatures getting up into the low 20s. Misty across the


northern Isles. Prone to that mist and fog. Northern England, many


places will miss the showers, it will be harder to miss the rain


through the Midlands, East Anglia and much of southern England. Still


warm air, temperatures getting up to the 20 degrees mark, it won't be


terribly pleasant. The rain turning heavy later on. Devon and Cornwall


might get away with a dry afternoon, as will many northern parts of


Wales, for central and southern parts of Wales prone to patchy


outbreaks of rain as the afternoon wears on. What about further


afield? You will find heavy showers too in Oslo and Berlin, high


temperatures, look 36 in Berlin, for the second half of the weekend,


just as hot in Rome and Athens under the very strong sunshine. We