29/07/2013 Newsnight


29/07/2013

The Twitter trolls who threaten rape - we try to catch one. Islam and democracy in Tunisia and Egypt. Is the new pope more gay-friendly? With Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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Tonight, Twitter trolls, mad, sad or just bad. Possibly all three.

:00:14.:00:17.

And what some believe could be a watershed moment for social media,

:00:17.:00:21.

a woman campaigner has been subjected to abusive attacks with

:00:21.:00:26.

threats of rape. The backlash has been profound. Paul misson has been

:00:26.:00:30.

on a troll hunt. Whoever has had that conversation has all these

:00:30.:00:35.

things, your Playstation account, and they have had all three of

:00:35.:00:38.

these Twitter accounts, which have issued rape threats. That is what

:00:38.:00:44.

they have done. Who should stop the tweets of hate, threats and abuse,

:00:44.:00:48.

the law or Twitter? A stand-off in Egypt between the military and

:00:48.:00:53.

Islamists. Is this the defining struggle of the Arab Spring. Those

:00:53.:00:58.

who support the army see this as their golden opportunity to finish

:00:58.:01:03.

off the Muslim Brotherhood. place where it all began, Tunisia

:01:03.:01:07.

where Islamist radical, called Salafists assert their authority on

:01:07.:01:12.

the street and hand out vigilante justice. TRANSLATION: People say

:01:12.:01:16.

Salafists are scary monsters, that is not true, they are sweet as

:01:16.:01:21.

lambs, I told you they gave me back my property. And this. TRANSLATION:

:01:21.:01:26.

If a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge

:01:26.:01:31.

him? A papal press conference, no less as Pope Francis appears to

:01:31.:01:39.

seek conciliation with homosexuals. Is this a soft answer that turnth

:01:39.:01:47.

away wrath, or a significant change in Vatican thinking. Good evening,

:01:47.:01:51.

it is difficult to believe that a campaign to put the face of one of

:01:51.:01:56.

this country's most beloved novelists, Jane Austen, on a �10

:01:56.:02:03.

note, would end in rape threats. Has what has happened to the

:02:03.:02:04.

feminist campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez. On Twitter she was

:02:05.:02:09.

abused but a number of people, presumably men, by men who hid

:02:09.:02:13.

their identity known as trolls. Twitter said it was testing a

:02:13.:02:18.

button to report abuse with every tweet. But amid a storm of protest

:02:18.:02:23.

Twitter's own response has been branded weak and inadequate. We

:02:23.:02:26.

will hear from Caroline Criado- Perez in a moment. First we are on

:02:26.:02:30.

a troll hunt. Amid a deluge of on-line rape

:02:30.:02:35.

threat, the journalist Caroline Criado-Perez and MP Stella Creasy,

:02:35.:02:39.

spent the day fighting back against the called trolls. At Newsnight we

:02:39.:02:46.

spent the day trying to find them. Someone called "rapehernow".

:02:46.:02:52.

says he wants to BEEP someone until they die. This one responds, he

:02:52.:02:57.

says? He says could I help you with that LOL. You have tracked him

:02:57.:03:01.

down? I have. Mike Smith, a journalist specialising in this

:03:01.:03:04.

technology had been monitoring the threats all weekend and managed to

:03:04.:03:08.

communicate with one of the men making them. He is calling her a

:03:08.:03:16.

bitch and then he's saying he will find her, and he BEEP rape her and

:03:16.:03:22.

wouldn't mind a piece. I managed to communicate through the Twitter

:03:22.:03:26.

message service, and I tried to be friendly and asked why he would be

:03:26.:03:30.

trying to do that, and he let slip a bit of information to enable me

:03:30.:03:35.

to track him down. Where is he? South Shields. It is not just

:03:35.:03:39.

threats of rape that break the law. The CPS set out guidelines lawyers

:03:39.:03:43.

should take in prosecutions with violations in social media. It

:03:43.:03:48.

needs to be a credible threat of violence that specifically targets

:03:48.:03:53.

an individual, or individuals, breaches a court order, or it is

:03:53.:03:56.

considered grossly offensive, obscene or false. But laws need the

:03:56.:04:00.

police to enforce them. Though the police have made one arrest, they

:04:00.:04:03.

are running to catch up. We are having to devote more resources to

:04:03.:04:08.

it. Hence I would much rather these matters be dealt with by Twitter

:04:08.:04:11.

and others themselves and stopping these things happening straight

:04:11.:04:14.

away. The moment someone transgresses I would like them off

:04:14.:04:17.

the system. I know there are lots of problems with that and they can

:04:17.:04:21.

create new accounts and there are concerns about freedom of speech. I

:04:21.:04:24.

don't think anyone can argue about the sorts of things we heard about

:04:24.:04:27.

over the weekend are the sorts of things anyone should be saying in

:04:27.:04:30.

any public space. Here is the trail we had to follow, by direct message

:04:31.:04:38.

the man making the rape threat admitted using numerous aliases.

:04:38.:04:44.

Then he revealed his game attack, or user name on Playstation, and

:04:44.:04:48.

that led us to a Facebook account. Two pieces of technical evidence

:04:48.:04:56.

pointed to an internet connection in soutd shields, I phoned -- south

:04:56.:05:01.

sheels. I phoned the man. They have had your Playstation accounts and

:05:01.:05:04.

all three of these Twitter accounts which have issued rape threats.

:05:04.:05:08.

That is what they have done. denied running the Twitter accounts,

:05:08.:05:11.

saying his e-mail had been hacked recently. We will be handing all

:05:11.:05:14.

our evidence to the police. One of the women on the receiving

:05:14.:05:20.

end of these threats had an uncompromising message for the

:05:20.:05:24.

issuers. I would say you are not going to succeed in intimidating us,

:05:24.:05:28.

men and women will stand together and say violence against women is

:05:28.:05:32.

wrong. If you commit criminal acts and threaten and harass women in

:05:32.:05:35.

this way there will be consequences. We will stand together for a

:05:35.:05:38.

different type of Twitter and Facebook, for a space in which

:05:38.:05:41.

every voice can be heard equally and with respect. Believe me this

:05:41.:05:45.

is not going away and it will not be tolerated any more. But rape

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threats are only one of the ways called internet trolls break the

:05:48.:05:52.

law. Another way is to mention somebody's name in the context of a

:05:52.:05:58.

rape joke. I confronted one of the people doing that today. Since then

:05:58.:06:03.

his account has been blocked. We didn't make a complaint but it

:06:03.:06:13.
:06:13.:06:14.

looks like Twitter has blocked Lord LOLs. He's back as another person,

:06:14.:06:18.

he's sexymanicorn and joined by a whole crew of people, who are not

:06:18.:06:22.

making threats against me and the BBC, but are for example decribing

:06:22.:06:30.

us as paedophiles and justifying rape both of men and women. This

:06:30.:06:35.

was a community of called trolls, mainly in the USA and beyond UK law.

:06:35.:06:40.

Most of what they wrote can't be shown. I get a lot of abuse on the

:06:40.:06:44.

Internet, mainly about economics. But it is only since I called out

:06:44.:06:47.

the person sending the rape jokes that this bunch of people has

:06:47.:06:53.

invaded my timeline, all of whom seem to be aligned around what they

:06:53.:06:57.

call "freedom of speech". All of them use this technique of speaking

:06:57.:07:02.

in the most disgusting and graphic way about sexual violence. It is my

:07:02.:07:09.

first experience of what a lot of women experience routinely. The net

:07:09.:07:15.

effect and intention is to deny some people a voice at all. We

:07:16.:07:20.

invited Twitter to join us tonight, but they didn't want to give an

:07:20.:07:24.

interview. I'm joined by Caroline Criado-Perez, the journalist and

:07:24.:07:27.

equality campaigner subjected to the abuse for The Austerity

:07:27.:07:30.

Olympics as you campaign. And Claire Hardaker who has researched

:07:30.:07:34.

on-line aggression, deception and manipulation, which includes

:07:34.:07:38.

trolling, the chief executive of the open rights group which

:07:38.:07:41.

campaigns for internet freedom, and John Carr, who advises the

:07:41.:07:47.

Government on internet safety. What effect has all this had on you?

:07:47.:07:50.

been completely overwhelming. It is consuming my lifeboat physically

:07:50.:07:57.

and emotionally. I have not really had much sleep. You know the

:07:57.:08:01.

threats have been so explicit and so graphic that obviously I have,

:08:01.:08:06.

they have stuck with me in my head. And have really put me in fear, I

:08:06.:08:10.

realised actually when a journalist came to my house last night at

:08:10.:08:15.

10.15 and I just had this huge reaction of total and utter terror,

:08:15.:08:23.

in a way that I hadn't really realised I was feeling. It has been

:08:23.:08:26.

bubbling under the surface whilst feeling I'm standing up for myself.

:08:26.:08:32.

Do you feel at risk? I think, you know, as I said, consciously I'm

:08:32.:08:36.

not walking around feeling really terrified, but I think underneath

:08:36.:08:40.

the surface there is, I think I just feel under siege it has been

:08:40.:08:45.

going on for five days and it is so relentless and the threats have

:08:45.:08:48.

been so graphic and people specifically saying they will find

:08:48.:08:51.

me and people have posted what they thought was my address on-line,

:08:51.:08:55.

luckily it wasn't. The fact that they have tried to do that is

:08:55.:08:59.

really disturbing. It's almost idiotic to suggest you ignore it.

:08:59.:09:03.

But some people ignore the abuse they get on Twitter, there is

:09:03.:09:07.

obviously a line between what is abusive, what is threatening and

:09:07.:09:10.

what is possibly criminal? Absolutely. I think we need to be

:09:10.:09:13.

very, very clear about the difference between for example

:09:13.:09:16.

traditional trolling, if you want to call it that. Which is someone

:09:16.:09:20.

just trying to look for a reaction. And the kind of stuff I have been

:09:20.:09:24.

getting which has been either criminal or has been at the very

:09:24.:09:29.

least trying to shut me up and silence me, it has been not liking

:09:29.:09:34.

women having a voice. That is why I refuse to be silenced. I suppose

:09:34.:09:38.

that's one of the most shocking things to anybody who uses Twitter

:09:39.:09:43.

who is male who suddenly wakes up to the fact that there is a lot of

:09:43.:09:47.

men who hate women and use Twitter as a way of conveying is that?

:09:47.:09:52.

of the things the Internet does seem to do, is psychology shows

:09:52.:09:57.

that human being has an inherent entertainment through violence,

:09:57.:10:01.

whether linguistic or physical violence. Look at the films or

:10:01.:10:05.

television programmes we consume, computer games that are popular.

:10:05.:10:08.

One of the things the Internet does, it seems to allow those who don't

:10:08.:10:13.

just want to consume it as a form of spectacle but to engage in it.

:10:13.:10:17.

It allows that small minority the option to go in there and say

:10:17.:10:20.

something extreme and horrific. Don't they get there is a real

:10:20.:10:24.

person at the end of this? There is a lot of research that suggest it

:10:24.:10:28.

is road rage, where you can't see the person or the reaction. It is

:10:28.:10:32.

not really a human any more. It is just words on a screen. There is a

:10:32.:10:35.

lot of research to suggest that the minute there is no facial

:10:35.:10:38.

expression, body language, it stops being a human being. It is just

:10:38.:10:41.

words, it doesn't matter. And you used the word "entertainment", is

:10:41.:10:45.

this fun for some people? There is a lot of evidence to suggest that

:10:45.:10:48.

some people are doing this specifically for entertainment. It

:10:48.:10:51.

might be because they are a bit bored, it might be just to

:10:51.:10:54.

entertain a group of friends or colleagues if you want to call them

:10:54.:10:59.

that, or otherwise, it is just to kill a bit of time. Did you talk to

:10:59.:11:03.

Twitter about this today, what are they doing about it? It was

:11:03.:11:06.

actually quite a positive conversation, which is not what I

:11:06.:11:09.

was expecting given their reaction publicly up until this point.

:11:09.:11:13.

think they have been pretty slow, didn't somebody block you from

:11:13.:11:19.

Twitter? From Twitter, we contacted one of the managers at Twitter,

:11:19.:11:24.

Mark Lucky, his response telling him that this women has been saving

:11:24.:11:30.

rape threats for ten hours was to look the account. I discovered

:11:30.:11:36.

today when someone sent me a tweet that copied me in I couldn't expand

:11:36.:11:40.

the conversation because he had looked me. I can't imagine from a

:11:40.:11:47.

decent human being perspective or a publicity situation how he could be

:11:47.:11:53.

doing that. He's probably embarrassed now. Have they said

:11:53.:11:56.

anything now? They have admitted their reaction was woeful. What

:11:56.:11:59.

they said about co-operation with the police is the police had

:11:59.:12:03.

contacted them but hadn't asked about any specific handles yet.

:12:03.:12:06.

They had responded within the hour, this was yesterday, and they said

:12:06.:12:10.

the police have yet to get back to them to follow up the request.

:12:10.:12:16.

Which obviously I'm very concerned about. John, are the police, do the

:12:16.:12:20.

police take a rape threat like this on Twitter as seriously as they

:12:20.:12:24.

would if a man yelled at a woman a threat about rape? You would hope

:12:24.:12:28.

so. Part of the problem with not just this particular type of

:12:28.:12:31.

despicable crime, but many others, I'm afraid that we see on the

:12:31.:12:36.

Internet is the sheer volumes of it. At one point you were getting 50

:12:36.:12:40.

tweets per hour, imagine if that is across the whole of the twitter

:12:40.:12:44.

space, if that type of thing was going on at any scale, it would

:12:44.:12:48.

overwhelm the police's capacity. that what it is about, or is it

:12:48.:12:51.

about will to do something. There have been other cases where after

:12:51.:12:54.

there has been some publicity something has been done and before

:12:54.:12:58.

that nothing has been done? I think it is really important that the

:12:58.:13:02.

police focus, certainly on your case, because it has got such

:13:02.:13:05.

publicity. That will send out a very powerful message to the other

:13:05.:13:09.

sad individuals who are doing these types of crimes that it isn't a

:13:09.:13:14.

space where they can get away with it. But you know, the volumes are a

:13:14.:13:18.

real challenge. Twitter putting a button on the website is a good

:13:19.:13:23.

idea, but there has to be something behind the button. What are the

:13:23.:13:29.

police doing about this? Well they arrested one man, I think that was

:13:29.:13:34.

yesterday. From what they have told me they are looking into all the

:13:34.:13:38.

tweets that I'm being sent and monitoring them and trying to see

:13:38.:13:41.

who they can track down and who they should be tracking down. I'm

:13:41.:13:45.

going back to the police station tomorrow to flag up the users who

:13:45.:13:49.

have been particularly disturbing. For those people who see Twitter as

:13:49.:13:54.

really useful, great fun, perfectly innocent, normal thing to do, who

:13:54.:13:59.

whose responsibility is it to sort it out? Ultimately it has to be the

:13:59.:14:03.

police. It is helpful of course for Twitter to co-operate with the

:14:03.:14:07.

police and to do some basic things. But if we're talking about people

:14:07.:14:10.

making such serious threats then those people do need to be brought

:14:10.:14:13.

to book. They need to be investigated by the police, taken

:14:13.:14:17.

to court and punished. Because we are talking about crimes here. I

:14:17.:14:23.

think the one thing I have been a little bit disappointed with in the

:14:23.:14:27.

debate and some of the suggestions over the last few days, we were

:14:27.:14:30.

completely concentrating on Twitter's role. It wouldn't happen

:14:30.:14:34.

without Twitter. People who don't know Caroline or anybody else won't

:14:34.:14:38.

make rape threats against her, this is an enabling tool for all sorts

:14:38.:14:41.

of things including threats. Twitter has some responsibility?

:14:41.:14:45.

has, but ultimately Twitter doesn't run the police, it doesn't run

:14:45.:14:50.

courts and it doesn't have prisons. So if we actually want these people

:14:50.:14:54.

to be punished, it has to reach the police and they have to be skilled

:14:54.:14:57.

to do things. The point I'm trying to get at is, are you saying that

:14:57.:15:01.

Twitter has got nothing to do with this, this is just the people who

:15:01.:15:04.

invented movable type, anything you write is nothing to do with me,

:15:04.:15:09.

mate? No, but the problem is they are never going to be terribly good

:15:09.:15:12.

at the kind of enforcement we want from society. The sort of tools we

:15:13.:15:18.

are talking about they can be, they tend to be subjected to things like

:15:18.:15:22.

automation, the people who look at the kinds of reports tend to go

:15:22.:15:27.

very underpaid. We see this across -- tend to be very underpaid. We

:15:27.:15:31.

see this across the platform, it is police who take people to court.

:15:32.:15:35.

you buy that? I don't, at all. There are lots of technical tools

:15:35.:15:39.

you can deploy. If words like "rape" suddenly start appearing on

:15:39.:15:43.

your site they can be picked up by software. People working for

:15:43.:15:46.

Twitter can and should be looking at it checking out to see exactly

:15:46.:15:49.

what is going on. The idea that these companies can just set up

:15:49.:15:54.

these spaces and then walk away and say well police it is now down to

:15:54.:15:57.

you, we are sorry we haven't got the resources to keep this safe,

:15:57.:16:01.

you do it. That is not acceptable. Do you see this, you have

:16:01.:16:05.

researched this a lot, do you see this as a watershed moment? For me

:16:05.:16:09.

it is an important moment where it finally seems to have gotten enough

:16:09.:16:13.

momentum, if you like, on an issue apparently as mundane as Jane

:16:13.:16:17.

Austen on a note, which I'm thrilled by. For that to be a thing.

:16:17.:16:22.

It is important enough. We had the Tom Daley incident as we know, it

:16:22.:16:26.

shocked people but didn't get this response. I'm kind of hoping and I

:16:26.:16:29.

wouldn't wish this on anybody, I'm hoping this might actually be the

:16:29.:16:32.

thing that makes people sit up and think, we need to do something.

:16:32.:16:36.

you agree with that. It could potentionally be a watershed moment

:16:36.:16:41.

and changing a lot of people are thinking about it? I really hope so,

:16:41.:16:45.

because we have turned to what the police are do the police have been

:16:45.:16:48.

extremely inadequate, we have seen repeatedly they focus on high-

:16:48.:16:52.

profile cases. We were in a meeting with MPs and the MPs were saying

:16:52.:16:56.

that they talked to the police and they were unable to get a response.

:16:56.:16:59.

Some of the people talking about this campaign yesterday were saying

:17:00.:17:04.

we similar things, that they had talked to the police about it, and

:17:04.:17:08.

the police had failed to completely deal with the issue. I do find it

:17:08.:17:13.

really disturbing, absolutely, that it has taken this level of public

:17:13.:17:16.

pressure and publicity for police to act. We do know people have

:17:16.:17:19.

reported things. Certain people have got in touch with me and said

:17:19.:17:23.

I have received a rape and death threat and the police haven't done

:17:23.:17:27.

anything, can you advise me on how to make the police listen to me. I

:17:27.:17:30.

don't know what to say to them. of the things that underlines this,

:17:31.:17:33.

there is all sorts of behaviour that used to be acceptable, smoking

:17:33.:17:37.

in a pub, not wearing a seatbelt, they are completely unacceptable

:17:37.:17:41.

now, and broadly people don't do it. Some people think this is

:17:41.:17:44.

acceptable behaviour, that is more of the point, and the police have

:17:44.:17:47.

to solve various cases, but changing people's behaviour is at

:17:48.:17:52.

the root of this? Absolutely, and the Internet is still a relatively

:17:52.:17:56.

new and immature technology, it is redefining the perameters in which

:17:56.:18:01.

people can and do behave. The companies themselves cannot simply

:18:01.:18:05.

step back and say well we have done this, we have created these clever

:18:05.:18:09.

tools it is up to the state to sort out the mess we have essentially

:18:09.:18:13.

put there. I was wondering, we did some investigation on this today,

:18:14.:18:17.

it is quite possible that the person, the people who made these

:18:17.:18:20.

threats against you are watching this programme, I wondered what

:18:20.:18:25.

your, what you would like to say to them? I would like to say I think

:18:25.:18:28.

they are completely pathetic, and if they think that they are going

:18:28.:18:32.

to drive me or any other woman off the Internet they will be sorely

:18:32.:18:35.

disappointed. Do you think it will have the opposite effect? I think

:18:35.:18:40.

it will, I have had so much support, it has drowned out the threats now.

:18:40.:18:44.

So much of the support has been saying thank you so much for

:18:45.:18:47.

standing up to them. I have received this in the past and it

:18:48.:18:51.

silenced me, and I know people who have had to leave Twitter as a

:18:51.:18:55.

result of it. I'm not going to do that any more. I think it is really,

:18:55.:18:58.

really important that we make the stand and we keep shouting back.

:18:59.:19:02.

Because otherwise we let them win. There are so many more of us than

:19:02.:19:05.

there are of them. The mentions on my Twitter feed really demonstrate.

:19:05.:19:08.

That we far outnumber them, we really can win this.

:19:08.:19:12.

Thank you very much. After the killings of dozens of protesters

:19:13.:19:18.

over the weekend, there has been an uneasy calm across Egypt today, for

:19:18.:19:22.

many Egyptians and those across the Arab world the battle for the

:19:22.:19:27.

streets of Cairo and all lax Andrea is one of the defining moments of

:19:27.:19:36.

the -- Alexandria is one of the defining moments of the rising We

:19:36.:19:43.

have a report from Egypt this week. And we're joined from Cairo. This

:19:43.:19:49.

backdown by the army, is it continuing? It is, although one has

:19:49.:19:57.

to say not in the deadly form that we saw on Saturday and Sunday. What

:19:57.:20:01.

happened over the weekend was attacks on supporters of the ousted

:20:02.:20:07.

President in a stronghold in the east of this city at a mosque

:20:07.:20:12.

called Rabaa al-Adawiya. What was going on there, according to the

:20:12.:20:16.

Muslim Brotherhood, is snipers were pick off demonstrators, dozens,

:20:16.:20:20.

they say over 70 killed and hundreds wounded with aimed shots.

:20:20.:20:24.

Now the police perhaps unsurprisingly deny this, but it is

:20:24.:20:30.

clear that those sorts of numbers are in the right area for how many

:20:30.:20:34.

people were killed there. This has caused a lot of heightened tension

:20:34.:20:39.

here with supporters of strong action by the army believing now is

:20:39.:20:44.

their moment and people from the Brotherhood side of it fearing that

:20:44.:20:52.

the area around the mosque could be stormed at any moment. Today the

:20:52.:20:56.

Brotherhood said the Interior Ministry re-established its anti-

:20:56.:21:03.

extremism department, which would be one of several shadowy-type

:21:03.:21:06.

intelligence organisations taking part in the crackdown on the Muslim

:21:06.:21:08.

Brotherhood. We see daily developments which suggests the

:21:08.:21:11.

security forces are trying to push them harder and harder. Given that,

:21:11.:21:19.

what are the options for the army and how they proceed with this?

:21:19.:21:27.

mosque has become central to this Rabaa al-Adawiya in Cairo. Some

:21:27.:21:31.

people, we were talking to some who support the army and support very

:21:31.:21:34.

strong action, they talk in terms of finishing it and the security

:21:34.:21:41.

forces going in. I think it is fairly clear though that at least

:21:41.:21:48.

thus far what the army and the police forces do not want is a sort

:21:48.:21:53.

of Tiananmen Square-type action where tanks go in and cause huge

:21:53.:21:56.

loss of life around the mosque. They do understand that the

:21:56.:21:59.

Americans and others are watching and they have to play this

:21:59.:22:04.

tactically. I think there is a strong will to try to, if you like,

:22:04.:22:08.

overcome opposition there, and reclaim that area of the city, but

:22:08.:22:14.

to try to do so by a series of subtle steps or things that may be

:22:14.:22:18.

to a greater or lesser extent deniable. The Muslim Brotherhood

:22:18.:22:21.

for its part is calling on supporter, tomorrow, for example,

:22:21.:22:24.

to go down there and rally in the expectation if they bring more

:22:24.:22:28.

people down there, that could dissuade the forces from storming

:22:28.:22:33.

it. If that's indeed what they are planning. This is a lot bigger than

:22:33.:22:38.

just Egypt, many people across the Arab world see this as a key moment

:22:38.:22:43.

for the Arab Spring. Is it being seen there as the counter

:22:43.:22:50.

revolution? That is an interesting question, the fascinating thing is

:22:50.:22:54.

the number of people who support the army's action here but who

:22:54.:22:57.

still see themselves as very committed Muslims, and devout

:22:57.:23:02.

Islamists, meaning people who believe that politics and the way

:23:02.:23:07.

the country is run should be animated by the spirit of Islam and

:23:07.:23:12.

its ideas of justice and social justice and that type of ideology.

:23:12.:23:16.

You might say how could they be on the side of the army when they are

:23:16.:23:20.

doing this to the Muslim Brotherhood. There are different

:23:20.:23:24.

strains of Islam and political Islam, Salafist, people who are

:23:24.:23:29.

stronger in their religious observance than the Muslim

:23:29.:23:32.

Brotherhood originally sided with the army on the coup. They have

:23:32.:23:36.

some what distanced themselves now. Some think they will run in

:23:36.:23:39.

elections, even though they are months off and all sorts of things

:23:39.:23:42.

will happen. They will run because they want the opportunity to

:23:42.:23:47.

relieve the Muslim Brotherhood, discredited by that year in

:23:48.:23:54.

Government of their supporters. There is crude political

:23:54.:23:59.

calculation going on here. It could be the Salafist who could gain in

:23:59.:24:02.

this situation as they gained electorally in Tunisia and have

:24:02.:24:10.

done well in Libya too. As we have seen most obviously in

:24:10.:24:15.

Egypt, for years all across the Arab world various dictators and

:24:15.:24:18.

strongmen have kept radical Islamist groups in check. One of

:24:18.:24:23.

the freedoms won by the uprisings in 2011, has been for radical

:24:23.:24:28.

Islamists to operate more openly. In Tunisia, a place where the Arab

:24:28.:24:33.

Spring began, a tiny minority of fundamentalists, some violent, have

:24:33.:24:38.

mounted a major challenge to the state. We have gained a unique

:24:38.:24:45.

access to the Salafists to the coastal down of Bezerate. We went

:24:45.:24:54.

to look at who is in control. In this cafe, the coffee machine works

:24:54.:24:59.

long into the Ramadan night. But along with the coffee, he service

:24:59.:25:04.

his regulars in this ragged suburb something even stronger and sweeter.

:25:04.:25:11.

The vision of a perfect Islamic Society. It would spend the end of

:25:11.:25:18.

Tunisia as we know it. TRANSLATION: Our goal is clear to implement

:25:18.:25:23.

Sharia Law in this country and throughout the world. With Sharia

:25:23.:25:27.

people will be able to co-exist and get their rights. People say they

:25:27.:25:34.

won't get their rights through the state, but through Sharia Law.

:25:34.:25:39.

man is a Salafist, one of a growing number of Sunni Muslims who believe

:25:39.:25:47.

Islam should be practised as it was in the earliest days of the faith.

:25:47.:25:52.

In this town this year some Salafists have been imposing that

:25:52.:25:57.

morality on others, trying, it appears, to build a parallel state.

:25:57.:26:01.

A Salafist patrol demands to know what this young woman is doing

:26:01.:26:11.
:26:11.:26:21.

alone in a shop with a man she's not related to. But in the end it

:26:21.:26:31.
:26:31.:26:31.

doesn't matter what she thinks, she's forced to leave. Elsewhere

:26:31.:26:34.

Salafist vigilantes on a motorbike, spy a man they suspect of being

:26:34.:26:40.

drunk. He's surrounded, then the Salafist in the brown leather coat

:26:40.:26:43.

approaches and starts to beat him with a metal chain, a punishment

:26:43.:26:49.

for unIslamic behaviour. Here is another victim of the vigilantes,

:26:50.:26:54.

he says Salafists armed with swords dragged him from his car when they

:26:54.:27:01.

found him drinking beer with a friend. TRANSLATION: They were

:27:01.:27:05.

shouting Allah hu Akbar, and the swords were coming down on my head

:27:05.:27:09.

and face, I tried to protect myself with my hands, that is why I have

:27:10.:27:17.

all these cuts on them. How can this happen in this town? On a lazy

:27:17.:27:22.

summer afternoon it looks like a pretty laid back place. It is

:27:22.:27:26.

Tunisia's northern-most port, open for centuries to outside cultures,

:27:26.:27:31.

under French colonialists, and the secular dictatorship that followed,

:27:32.:27:35.

many Tunisians adopted a relaxed form of Islam, but the revolution

:27:35.:27:39.

two years ago that started the Arab Spring, reignited the struggle

:27:39.:27:49.
:27:49.:27:53.

between liberal values and Islamic fundamentalist ones. Many saw the

:27:53.:27:55.

uprisings bringing the end of oppression and the start of

:27:55.:28:01.

democracy. It seems they only opened up the space for a more

:28:01.:28:06.

intense battle for hearts and minds, but control of the streets and what

:28:06.:28:16.
:28:16.:28:16.

could be irreconcilable world views. Here Salafists mounted one of their

:28:16.:28:23.

most serious challenges to the state.

:28:23.:28:28.

At the centre of their network a softly spoken shopkeeper. He says

:28:28.:28:33.

he fought as a Jihadi in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like many

:28:33.:28:38.

other Salafists he was jailed when he came back to Tunisia. Then he

:28:38.:28:45.

turned his clothes can I osk into an alternative Islamic law court.

:28:45.:28:50.

More attractive to some citizens than the state's inefficient and

:28:50.:28:58.

sometimes corrupt legal system. This woman hopes he can stop her

:28:58.:29:03.

husband divorcing her, he's threatening to take the family home

:29:03.:29:13.
:29:13.:29:33.

After she leaves we're told he sends his followers to talk to her

:29:33.:29:38.

husband. The marriage is preserved. Meanwhile the parents of a 14-year-

:29:38.:29:42.

old boy bring a man they say took their son's mobile phone and tried

:29:42.:29:52.
:29:52.:30:18.

He says he got the phone back and now the man rarely leaves his home.

:30:18.:30:25.

Another victory for Islamic justice. With every such victory Salafism

:30:25.:30:30.

spreads. This man joined the movement after his cafe was robbed

:30:30.:30:40.
:30:40.:30:41.

and Salafists brought the stolen goods back. TRANSLATION: People say

:30:41.:30:44.

Salafists are scary monsters, that is not true, on the contrary, they

:30:44.:30:48.

are innocent, sweet as lambs. I told you they gave me back my

:30:49.:30:58.

property. But the state's been fighting back against Salafism. In

:30:58.:31:03.

this stop-and-search operation, police pick up three men, one has a

:31:03.:31:12.

cannister of pepper spray, illegal in Tunisia. Since January more than

:31:12.:31:21.

100 Salafists have been arrested here. TRANSLATION: After the

:31:21.:31:27.

revolution law and order broke down, we had to regain control, step-by-

:31:27.:31:30.

step, the state was under threat. Some groups tried to overpower it,

:31:30.:31:35.

that forced us to act, to put things back how they were before,

:31:35.:31:43.

to make you Tunisia for all Tunisians again. Last September a

:31:43.:31:51.

Salafist mob stormed the US embassy in Tunis. In February the secular

:31:51.:31:58.

opposition leader was buried after he was aasated, police say, by a

:31:58.:32:02.

militant Salafist group. -- assassinated, police say, by a

:32:02.:32:07.

militant Salafist group. There was a massive show of force to stop

:32:07.:32:16.

Salafist from holding a conference. Shortly afterwards the cafe was --

:32:16.:32:22.

the cloth kiosk was demolished. This is all that remains of the

:32:22.:32:26.

kiosk, it has been bulldozed by the authorities. He has fled, some say

:32:26.:32:32.

to Libya, some say to Mali. But the social problems that helped spread

:32:33.:32:40.

Salafism haven't gone away. But the police are now back in control.

:32:40.:32:47.

They are taking Newsnight on patrol to prove T the first man they stop

:32:48.:32:52.

has a Salafist beard. They say they don't target particular groups,

:32:52.:32:58.

only suspected criminals. We have stopped now because the police just

:32:58.:33:03.

saw a machine in a black beard, a Salafist, passing us going the

:33:03.:33:06.

other way on a motorcycle, he wouldn't stop, now they have sent

:33:06.:33:16.
:33:16.:33:17.

other men back to try to detain him. Today they uncover a range of petty

:33:17.:33:22.

crimes, but of the 60 or so Salafists arrested since May, two

:33:22.:33:26.

face trial on the charge of attempting to replace the state.

:33:26.:33:30.

This crackdown is happening not under a secular Government, but an

:33:30.:33:34.

Islamist one. Islamists won the first free elections here, just as

:33:34.:33:38.

they did in Egypt. But the Government here now is in an

:33:38.:33:42.

awkward position. It has to reassure secularists, to avoid the

:33:42.:33:46.

chance of being toppled, as Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood was, but it also

:33:46.:33:52.

has to retain the loyalty of its own religious constituency.

:33:52.:33:57.

Protestors were out on the streets of Tunis again last week after

:33:57.:34:06.

another political killing. Of the left-wing opposition leader,.

:34:06.:34:15.

Whoever was responsible, many feel democracy is not yet secure.

:34:15.:34:23.

Back here the annual International Festival is under way. This is

:34:23.:34:30.

spiritual music, though from the relaxed souf if I tradition. --

:34:30.:34:34.

Soufi tradition. Some think Tunis is too liberal and diverse a

:34:34.:34:39.

society to be seriously destablised. But many secular Tunisians like

:34:39.:34:43.

these are still afraid that their freedoms will gradually be

:34:43.:34:52.

curtailed. Across town Salah Badrouni's last customer has gone

:34:52.:34:57.

home. He knows Salafists like him must now lie low for a while, he's

:34:57.:35:07.
:35:07.:35:08.

not giving up. TRANSLATION: On the contrary there is no retreat, we

:35:08.:35:11.

are still going forward. Maybe we can do as much charity work now. We

:35:12.:35:16.

meet less often because some of our leaders have had to leave Tunisia.

:35:16.:35:21.

But even if we have had a setback, our sons will continue our path.

:35:21.:35:25.

Islam will keep pursuing its purpose. It won't be stopped by

:35:25.:35:35.
:35:35.:35:36.

anything or anyone. Another night of fundamentalist-flavoured coffee

:35:36.:35:44.

is over. But the battle for the city goes on.

:35:44.:35:49.

If someone is gay and seeks the Lord, who am I to judge, the words

:35:49.:35:54.

of Pope Francis and what some have interpreted as a conciliatory move

:35:54.:35:57.

towards homosexuals. The Pope added that the problem is not having the

:35:57.:36:01.

orientation, it is lobbying, that is the most serious problem. And by

:36:01.:36:05.

lobbying Pope Francis was referring to what is said to be a gay lobby

:36:05.:36:12.

at the heart of the Vatican's administration.

:36:12.:36:16.

Two Popes, two very different styles. The previous Pontiff, both

:36:16.:36:19.

Benedict had a formal and traditional manner, contrast that

:36:19.:36:25.

with Pope Francis, more relaxed, and you get the point. Pope Francis

:36:25.:36:30.

has just travelled back from Brazil where he toured the country without

:36:30.:36:35.

bullet-proof screens and received a reception more akin to a rock star.

:36:35.:36:43.

He addressed the three-million strong audience in Copacabana Beach,

:36:43.:36:46.

the biggest audience the world has seen. He spoke to young people

:36:46.:36:49.

about harnessing their energy and creativity, he said go and don't be

:36:49.:36:56.

afraid of training. Now in a further break from tradition the

:36:56.:36:59.

Pope held an impromptu press conference for more than an hour on

:36:59.:37:02.

the journey home from the Vatican. As well as fielding questions on

:37:03.:37:06.

the roles of women, he was asked about reports of a gay lobby within

:37:06.:37:10.

the church. TRANSLATION: A lot is written about the gay loby. I still

:37:10.:37:15.

haven't seen anyone in the VAT -- lobby. I still haven't seen anyone

:37:15.:37:19.

in the Vatican with an identity card saying they are gay. The media

:37:19.:37:24.

say they are there. I think when one is found a person like this we

:37:24.:37:28.

have to distinguish between the fact that they are a gay person and

:37:28.:37:33.

the fact that there is a gay lobby. If a person is gay and seeks God

:37:33.:37:43.
:37:43.:37:44.

and has goodwill, who am I to judge him? The comments have caused a

:37:44.:37:47.

stir, how much it will change direction in the church is unclear.

:37:47.:37:52.

Pope Francis reminded the press while homosexual orientation is not

:37:52.:37:57.

considered sinful in the Roman Catholic teaching, the homosexual

:37:57.:37:59.

acts are, the presentation is different but is the essential

:37:59.:38:07.

message the same. Joining me now is Jo Stanley, who organises a

:38:07.:38:11.

fortnightly service for gay Catholics, and the editor of the

:38:11.:38:18.

Catholic Herald. What do you make of what the Pope had to say?

:38:18.:38:22.

pudsled behind the comment about a gay lobby. But I'm very welcoming

:38:23.:38:29.

of the change in rhetoric that has come about, the headline, who am I

:38:29.:38:34.

to judge? I'm interested, you used the word "rhetoric", what does that

:38:34.:38:38.

mean in the end? It is very clear that he didn't say there was going

:38:38.:38:45.

to be any change in church teaching. We wouldn't expect him to really.

:38:45.:38:51.

But by contrast with the last Pope who was a very brilliant man but

:38:51.:38:56.

really used some extremely uncharitable language towards gay

:38:57.:39:04.

people at times. This Pope's openness and kind of

:39:04.:39:09.

approachability I think will make a huge impact on people who are gay

:39:09.:39:14.

and who are believers. What do you make of it, church teaching I think

:39:14.:39:19.

is that homosexuality is intrinsically disorders and that

:39:19.:39:23.

won't change? He wasn't changing that I don't think, but what I was

:39:23.:39:27.

very interested in was the way that his words, his humble approach,

:39:27.:39:34.

which said I'm no-one to judge, has really, the potential of changing

:39:34.:39:38.

the way our church is viewed note only by gay Catholics or by

:39:38.:39:44.

Catholics within the church but by the outside world. You know to be

:39:44.:39:51.

seen as a church that is led by a man who says I'm no-one but a

:39:51.:39:57.

humble servant of God, I'm not saying that gays are excluded, I'm

:39:57.:40:01.

in fact recognising that gays have made a contribution to my church. I

:40:01.:40:06.

think that's really important. in the secular world, when you say

:40:06.:40:10.

things it is nice mood music, but you don't actually change what you

:40:10.:40:14.

do, that is called spin? I'm not sure that you could ever accuse

:40:14.:40:21.

this one of spin. What he's trying to say is this is an inclusive

:40:21.:40:26.

church. Theologically I'm not prepared to move anything because I

:40:26.:40:32.

can't, by myself. But I am embracing you. And I think that you

:40:32.:40:36.

talk about mood music, gosh, if the mood in the Catholic Church could

:40:36.:40:41.

improve I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think you seem to agree

:40:41.:40:47.

with that. Isn't it just back to an old tradition in various Christian

:40:47.:40:51.

denominations which is, you hate the sin but you love the sinner?

:40:52.:40:56.

Yeah. I think there are a couple of things you have to realise. The

:40:56.:41:02.

first thing is this is being seen as just a discussion of home sexual

:41:03.:41:07.

acts, fundamental Christian teaches is whether you are straight or gay

:41:07.:41:11.

or transgender whatever, sex is for marriage. He's not actually, I

:41:11.:41:17.

think the church doesn't really pick out the gays as such. Jesus

:41:17.:41:24.

never talked about gays. He is just transmitting the basic Christian

:41:24.:41:29.

teaching. But it is very noticable that the language, the rhetoric,

:41:29.:41:33.

the condemnation that has focused so specifically on lesbian and gay

:41:34.:41:38.

people, over the last 30 years, has driven lots of people out of the

:41:38.:41:44.

church. Also I think it is not only a principled stand, but it is also

:41:44.:41:49.

a very traingatic stand, if the Pope were to exclude gays from the

:41:49.:41:52.

Catholic Church, we would have an emptying of the Catholic Church, we

:41:52.:41:56.

would have a hollowing out of Catholic culture, hospitals,

:41:56.:42:00.

schools, churches themselves, and I hate to say it the Vatican too,

:42:00.:42:05.

apparently. What was this gay lobby comment, which puzzled you? There

:42:05.:42:09.

has been an Italian journalist who has been investigating the Vatican

:42:09.:42:14.

over a period of months, and he has revelations, including bugged

:42:14.:42:19.

telephone calls, which show that there is a very active lobby and

:42:19.:42:27.

the head of it is allegedly gay and it is a lobby that is trying to

:42:27.:42:31.

promote not gay rights campaign, but a self-promotion within the

:42:31.:42:39.

Vatican. Whether any of this is true has yet to be proved.

:42:39.:42:43.

Uncontestably to be proved. But what we are certain of is this Pope

:42:43.:42:47.

is saying it is not because there is a gay element to this lobby that

:42:47.:42:51.

I'm against them. It is the fact that there is machinations and

:42:51.:42:56.

plotting which is something he doesn't like. There is a number of

:42:56.:43:01.

politicians feeling the same in our own beloved country. Paul Mason has

:43:01.:43:11.

been scouring the trollisphere looking for reaction to the item on

:43:11.:43:17.

the Twitter and rape threats. last night and the arrest was made,

:43:17.:43:22.

we have been looking at it all day, and the tapering down of overt rape

:43:22.:43:26.

threats against the people involved, the MPs and campaigners. Small in

:43:26.:43:31.

number, but as we saw earlier very distressed. We have had one tonight

:43:31.:43:36.

an overt rape threat and death thread against an MP named. I'm not

:43:36.:43:40.

going to bother reading it out, graphic, the person is taunting the

:43:40.:43:43.

police or Twitter, you haven't taken my account down yet, when you

:43:43.:43:49.

are going to do it. That is there. The problem is tracking them down.

:43:49.:43:59.
:43:59.:44:00.

I think we had six hours of human intelligence to track our one.

:44:00.:44:06.

@beware 008. That has been named by Stella Creasy as a complaint to

:44:06.:44:12.

Waltham stow police. It took us six hours to try to find where he is,

:44:12.:44:18.

if not identify the person. The police are up against a huge task

:44:18.:44:22.

here. But the information coming from those dealing with Twitter,

:44:22.:44:27.

Twitter haven't been able to speak to us. They will have to up their

:44:27.:44:30.

game tomorrow? The information coming out of Twitter via third

:44:30.:44:34.

party sources is Twitter don't believe the police have begun to

:44:34.:44:39.

ask them for their accounts. (beep) there is another one going up there.

:44:39.:44:44.

You see two institutions, one of which is deeply rooted in the on-

:44:44.:44:49.

line world suddenly hit by craziness, and another one deeply

:44:49.:44:52.

confused by the on-line world and yet as the papers you are about to

:44:52.:44:57.

see, if that was a note Twitter, rape threat to MP, if it was a

:44:57.:45:01.

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