29/07/2013 Newsnight

Tonight, Twitter trolls, mad, sad or just bad. Possibly all three.

And what some believe could be a watershed moment for social media,

a woman campaigner has been subjected to abusive attacks with

threats of rape. The backlash has been profound. Paul misson has been

on a troll hunt. Whoever has had that conversation has all these

things, your Playstation account, and they have had all three of

these Twitter accounts, which have issued rape threats. That is what

they have done. Who should stop the tweets of hate, threats and abuse,

the law or Twitter? A stand-off in Egypt between the military and

Islamists. Is this the defining struggle of the Arab Spring. Those

who support the army see this as their golden opportunity to finish

off the Muslim Brotherhood. place where it all began, Tunisia

where Islamist radical, called Salafists assert their authority on

the street and hand out vigilante justice. TRANSLATION: People say

Salafists are scary monsters, that is not true, they are sweet as

lambs, I told you they gave me back my property. And this. TRANSLATION:

If a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge

him? A papal press conference, no less as Pope Francis appears to

seek conciliation with homosexuals. Is this a soft answer that turnth

away wrath, or a significant change in Vatican thinking. Good evening,

it is difficult to believe that a campaign to put the face of one of

this country's most beloved novelists, Jane Austen, on a �10

note, would end in rape threats. Has what has happened to the

feminist campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez. On Twitter she was

abused but a number of people, presumably men, by men who hid

their identity known as trolls. Twitter said it was testing a

button to report abuse with every tweet. But amid a storm of protest

Twitter's own response has been branded weak and inadequate. We

will hear from Caroline Criado- Perez in a moment. First we are on

a troll hunt. Amid a deluge of on-line rape

threat, the journalist Caroline Criado-Perez and MP Stella Creasy,

spent the day fighting back against the called trolls. At Newsnight we

spent the day trying to find them. Someone called "rapehernow".

says he wants to BEEP someone until they die. This one responds, he

says? He says could I help you with that LOL. You have tracked him

down? I have. Mike Smith, a journalist specialising in this

technology had been monitoring the threats all weekend and managed to

communicate with one of the men making them. He is calling her a

bitch and then he's saying he will find her, and he BEEP rape her and

wouldn't mind a piece. I managed to communicate through the Twitter

message service, and I tried to be friendly and asked why he would be

trying to do that, and he let slip a bit of information to enable me

to track him down. Where is he? South Shields. It is not just

threats of rape that break the law. The CPS set out guidelines lawyers

should take in prosecutions with violations in social media. It

needs to be a credible threat of violence that specifically targets

an individual, or individuals, breaches a court order, or it is

considered grossly offensive, obscene or false. But laws need the

police to enforce them. Though the police have made one arrest, they

are running to catch up. We are having to devote more resources to

it. Hence I would much rather these matters be dealt with by Twitter

and others themselves and stopping these things happening straight

away. The moment someone transgresses I would like them off

the system. I know there are lots of problems with that and they can

create new accounts and there are concerns about freedom of speech. I

don't think anyone can argue about the sorts of things we heard about

over the weekend are the sorts of things anyone should be saying in

any public space. Here is the trail we had to follow, by direct message

the man making the rape threat admitted using numerous aliases.

Then he revealed his game attack, or user name on Playstation, and

that led us to a Facebook account. Two pieces of technical evidence

pointed to an internet connection in soutd shields, I phoned -- south

sheels. I phoned the man. They have had your Playstation accounts and

all three of these Twitter accounts which have issued rape threats.

That is what they have done. denied running the Twitter accounts,

saying his e-mail had been hacked recently. We will be handing all

our evidence to the police. One of the women on the receiving

end of these threats had an uncompromising message for the

issuers. I would say you are not going to succeed in intimidating us,

men and women will stand together and say violence against women is

wrong. If you commit criminal acts and threaten and harass women in

this way there will be consequences. We will stand together for a

different type of Twitter and Facebook, for a space in which

every voice can be heard equally and with respect. Believe me this

is not going away and it will not be tolerated any more. But rape

threats are only one of the ways called internet trolls break the

law. Another way is to mention somebody's name in the context of a

rape joke. I confronted one of the people doing that today. Since then

his account has been blocked. We didn't make a complaint but it

looks like Twitter has blocked Lord LOLs. He's back as another person,

he's sexymanicorn and joined by a whole crew of people, who are not

making threats against me and the BBC, but are for example decribing

us as paedophiles and justifying rape both of men and women. This

was a community of called trolls, mainly in the USA and beyond UK law.

Most of what they wrote can't be shown. I get a lot of abuse on the

Internet, mainly about economics. But it is only since I called out

the person sending the rape jokes that this bunch of people has

invaded my timeline, all of whom seem to be aligned around what they

call "freedom of speech". All of them use this technique of speaking

in the most disgusting and graphic way about sexual violence. It is my

first experience of what a lot of women experience routinely. The net

effect and intention is to deny some people a voice at all. We

invited Twitter to join us tonight, but they didn't want to give an

interview. I'm joined by Caroline Criado-Perez, the journalist and

equality campaigner subjected to the abuse for The Austerity

Olympics as you campaign. And Claire Hardaker who has researched

on-line aggression, deception and manipulation, which includes

trolling, the chief executive of the open rights group which

campaigns for internet freedom, and John Carr, who advises the

Government on internet safety. What effect has all this had on you?

been completely overwhelming. It is consuming my lifeboat physically

and emotionally. I have not really had much sleep. You know the

threats have been so explicit and so graphic that obviously I have,

they have stuck with me in my head. And have really put me in fear, I

realised actually when a journalist came to my house last night at

10.15 and I just had this huge reaction of total and utter terror,

in a way that I hadn't really realised I was feeling. It has been

bubbling under the surface whilst feeling I'm standing up for myself.

Do you feel at risk? I think, you know, as I said, consciously I'm

not walking around feeling really terrified, but I think underneath

the surface there is, I think I just feel under siege it has been

going on for five days and it is so relentless and the threats have

been so graphic and people specifically saying they will find

me and people have posted what they thought was my address on-line,

luckily it wasn't. The fact that they have tried to do that is

really disturbing. It's almost idiotic to suggest you ignore it.

But some people ignore the abuse they get on Twitter, there is

obviously a line between what is abusive, what is threatening and

what is possibly criminal? Absolutely. I think we need to be

very, very clear about the difference between for example

traditional trolling, if you want to call it that. Which is someone

just trying to look for a reaction. And the kind of stuff I have been

getting which has been either criminal or has been at the very

least trying to shut me up and silence me, it has been not liking

women having a voice. That is why I refuse to be silenced. I suppose

that's one of the most shocking things to anybody who uses Twitter

who is male who suddenly wakes up to the fact that there is a lot of

men who hate women and use Twitter as a way of conveying is that?

of the things the Internet does seem to do, is psychology shows

that human being has an inherent entertainment through violence,

whether linguistic or physical violence. Look at the films or

television programmes we consume, computer games that are popular.

One of the things the Internet does, it seems to allow those who don't

just want to consume it as a form of spectacle but to engage in it.

It allows that small minority the option to go in there and say

something extreme and horrific. Don't they get there is a real

person at the end of this? There is a lot of research that suggest it

is road rage, where you can't see the person or the reaction. It is

not really a human any more. It is just words on a screen. There is a

lot of research to suggest that the minute there is no facial

expression, body language, it stops being a human being. It is just

words, it doesn't matter. And you used the word "entertainment", is

this fun for some people? There is a lot of evidence to suggest that

some people are doing this specifically for entertainment. It

might be because they are a bit bored, it might be just to

entertain a group of friends or colleagues if you want to call them

that, or otherwise, it is just to kill a bit of time. Did you talk to

Twitter about this today, what are they doing about it? It was

actually quite a positive conversation, which is not what I

was expecting given their reaction publicly up until this point.

think they have been pretty slow, didn't somebody block you from

Twitter? From Twitter, we contacted one of the managers at Twitter,

Mark Lucky, his response telling him that this women has been saving

rape threats for ten hours was to look the account. I discovered

today when someone sent me a tweet that copied me in I couldn't expand

the conversation because he had looked me. I can't imagine from a

decent human being perspective or a publicity situation how he could be

doing that. He's probably embarrassed now. Have they said

anything now? They have admitted their reaction was woeful. What

they said about co-operation with the police is the police had

contacted them but hadn't asked about any specific handles yet.

They had responded within the hour, this was yesterday, and they said

the police have yet to get back to them to follow up the request.

Which obviously I'm very concerned about. John, are the police, do the

police take a rape threat like this on Twitter as seriously as they

would if a man yelled at a woman a threat about rape? You would hope

so. Part of the problem with not just this particular type of

despicable crime, but many others, I'm afraid that we see on the

Internet is the sheer volumes of it. At one point you were getting 50

tweets per hour, imagine if that is across the whole of the twitter

space, if that type of thing was going on at any scale, it would

overwhelm the police's capacity. that what it is about, or is it

about will to do something. There have been other cases where after

there has been some publicity something has been done and before

that nothing has been done? I think it is really important that the

police focus, certainly on your case, because it has got such

publicity. That will send out a very powerful message to the other

sad individuals who are doing these types of crimes that it isn't a

space where they can get away with it. But you know, the volumes are a

real challenge. Twitter putting a button on the website is a good

idea, but there has to be something behind the button. What are the

police doing about this? Well they arrested one man, I think that was

yesterday. From what they have told me they are looking into all the

tweets that I'm being sent and monitoring them and trying to see

who they can track down and who they should be tracking down. I'm

going back to the police station tomorrow to flag up the users who

have been particularly disturbing. For those people who see Twitter as

really useful, great fun, perfectly innocent, normal thing to do, who

whose responsibility is it to sort it out? Ultimately it has to be the

police. It is helpful of course for Twitter to co-operate with the

police and to do some basic things. But if we're talking about people

making such serious threats then those people do need to be brought

to book. They need to be investigated by the police, taken

to court and punished. Because we are talking about crimes here. I

think the one thing I have been a little bit disappointed with in the

debate and some of the suggestions over the last few days, we were

completely concentrating on Twitter's role. It wouldn't happen

without Twitter. People who don't know Caroline or anybody else won't

make rape threats against her, this is an enabling tool for all sorts

of things including threats. Twitter has some responsibility?

has, but ultimately Twitter doesn't run the police, it doesn't run

courts and it doesn't have prisons. So if we actually want these people

to be punished, it has to reach the police and they have to be skilled

to do things. The point I'm trying to get at is, are you saying that

Twitter has got nothing to do with this, this is just the people who

invented movable type, anything you write is nothing to do with me,

mate? No, but the problem is they are never going to be terribly good

at the kind of enforcement we want from society. The sort of tools we

are talking about they can be, they tend to be subjected to things like

automation, the people who look at the kinds of reports tend to go

very underpaid. We see this across -- tend to be very underpaid. We

see this across the platform, it is police who take people to court.

you buy that? I don't, at all. There are lots of technical tools

you can deploy. If words like "rape" suddenly start appearing on

your site they can be picked up by software. People working for

Twitter can and should be looking at it checking out to see exactly

what is going on. The idea that these companies can just set up

these spaces and then walk away and say well police it is now down to

you, we are sorry we haven't got the resources to keep this safe,

you do it. That is not acceptable. Do you see this, you have

researched this a lot, do you see this as a watershed moment? For me

it is an important moment where it finally seems to have gotten enough

momentum, if you like, on an issue apparently as mundane as Jane

Austen on a note, which I'm thrilled by. For that to be a thing.

It is important enough. We had the Tom Daley incident as we know, it

shocked people but didn't get this response. I'm kind of hoping and I

wouldn't wish this on anybody, I'm hoping this might actually be the

thing that makes people sit up and think, we need to do something.

you agree with that. It could potentionally be a watershed moment

and changing a lot of people are thinking about it? I really hope so,

because we have turned to what the police are do the police have been

extremely inadequate, we have seen repeatedly they focus on high-

profile cases. We were in a meeting with MPs and the MPs were saying

that they talked to the police and they were unable to get a response.

Some of the people talking about this campaign yesterday were saying

we similar things, that they had talked to the police about it, and

the police had failed to completely deal with the issue. I do find it

really disturbing, absolutely, that it has taken this level of public

pressure and publicity for police to act. We do know people have

reported things. Certain people have got in touch with me and said

I have received a rape and death threat and the police haven't done

anything, can you advise me on how to make the police listen to me. I

don't know what to say to them. of the things that underlines this,

there is all sorts of behaviour that used to be acceptable, smoking

in a pub, not wearing a seatbelt, they are completely unacceptable

now, and broadly people don't do it. Some people think this is

acceptable behaviour, that is more of the point, and the police have

to solve various cases, but changing people's behaviour is at

the root of this? Absolutely, and the Internet is still a relatively

new and immature technology, it is redefining the perameters in which

people can and do behave. The companies themselves cannot simply

step back and say well we have done this, we have created these clever

tools it is up to the state to sort out the mess we have essentially

put there. I was wondering, we did some investigation on this today,

it is quite possible that the person, the people who made these

threats against you are watching this programme, I wondered what

your, what you would like to say to them? I would like to say I think

they are completely pathetic, and if they think that they are going

to drive me or any other woman off the Internet they will be sorely

disappointed. Do you think it will have the opposite effect? I think

it will, I have had so much support, it has drowned out the threats now.

So much of the support has been saying thank you so much for

standing up to them. I have received this in the past and it

silenced me, and I know people who have had to leave Twitter as a

result of it. I'm not going to do that any more. I think it is really,

really important that we make the stand and we keep shouting back.

Because otherwise we let them win. There are so many more of us than

there are of them. The mentions on my Twitter feed really demonstrate.

That we far outnumber them, we really can win this.

Thank you very much. After the killings of dozens of protesters

over the weekend, there has been an uneasy calm across Egypt today, for

many Egyptians and those across the Arab world the battle for the

streets of Cairo and all lax Andrea is one of the defining moments of

the -- Alexandria is one of the defining moments of the rising We

have a report from Egypt this week. And we're joined from Cairo. This

backdown by the army, is it continuing? It is, although one has

to say not in the deadly form that we saw on Saturday and Sunday. What

happened over the weekend was attacks on supporters of the ousted

President in a stronghold in the east of this city at a mosque

called Rabaa al-Adawiya. What was going on there, according to the

Muslim Brotherhood, is snipers were pick off demonstrators, dozens,

they say over 70 killed and hundreds wounded with aimed shots.

Now the police perhaps unsurprisingly deny this, but it is

clear that those sorts of numbers are in the right area for how many

people were killed there. This has caused a lot of heightened tension

here with supporters of strong action by the army believing now is

their moment and people from the Brotherhood side of it fearing that

the area around the mosque could be stormed at any moment. Today the

Brotherhood said the Interior Ministry re-established its anti-

extremism department, which would be one of several shadowy-type

intelligence organisations taking part in the crackdown on the Muslim

Brotherhood. We see daily developments which suggests the

security forces are trying to push them harder and harder. Given that,

what are the options for the army and how they proceed with this?

mosque has become central to this Rabaa al-Adawiya in Cairo. Some

people, we were talking to some who support the army and support very

strong action, they talk in terms of finishing it and the security

forces going in. I think it is fairly clear though that at least

thus far what the army and the police forces do not want is a sort

of Tiananmen Square-type action where tanks go in and cause huge

loss of life around the mosque. They do understand that the

Americans and others are watching and they have to play this

tactically. I think there is a strong will to try to, if you like,

overcome opposition there, and reclaim that area of the city, but

to try to do so by a series of subtle steps or things that may be

to a greater or lesser extent deniable. The Muslim Brotherhood

for its part is calling on supporter, tomorrow, for example,

to go down there and rally in the expectation if they bring more

people down there, that could dissuade the forces from storming

it. If that's indeed what they are planning. This is a lot bigger than

just Egypt, many people across the Arab world see this as a key moment

for the Arab Spring. Is it being seen there as the counter

revolution? That is an interesting question, the fascinating thing is

the number of people who support the army's action here but who

still see themselves as very committed Muslims, and devout

Islamists, meaning people who believe that politics and the way

the country is run should be animated by the spirit of Islam and

its ideas of justice and social justice and that type of ideology.

You might say how could they be on the side of the army when they are

doing this to the Muslim Brotherhood. There are different

strains of Islam and political Islam, Salafist, people who are

stronger in their religious observance than the Muslim

Brotherhood originally sided with the army on the coup. They have

some what distanced themselves now. Some think they will run in

elections, even though they are months off and all sorts of things

will happen. They will run because they want the opportunity to

relieve the Muslim Brotherhood, discredited by that year in

Government of their supporters. There is crude political

calculation going on here. It could be the Salafist who could gain in

this situation as they gained electorally in Tunisia and have

done well in Libya too. As we have seen most obviously in

Egypt, for years all across the Arab world various dictators and

strongmen have kept radical Islamist groups in check. One of

the freedoms won by the uprisings in 2011, has been for radical

Islamists to operate more openly. In Tunisia, a place where the Arab

Spring began, a tiny minority of fundamentalists, some violent, have

mounted a major challenge to the state. We have gained a unique

access to the Salafists to the coastal down of Bezerate. We went

to look at who is in control. In this cafe, the coffee machine works

long into the Ramadan night. But along with the coffee, he service

his regulars in this ragged suburb something even stronger and sweeter.

The vision of a perfect Islamic Society. It would spend the end of

Tunisia as we know it. TRANSLATION: Our goal is clear to implement

Sharia Law in this country and throughout the world. With Sharia

people will be able to co-exist and get their rights. People say they

won't get their rights through the state, but through Sharia Law.

man is a Salafist, one of a growing number of Sunni Muslims who believe

Islam should be practised as it was in the earliest days of the faith.

In this town this year some Salafists have been imposing that

morality on others, trying, it appears, to build a parallel state.

A Salafist patrol demands to know what this young woman is doing

alone in a shop with a man she's not related to. But in the end it

doesn't matter what she thinks, she's forced to leave. Elsewhere

Salafist vigilantes on a motorbike, spy a man they suspect of being

drunk. He's surrounded, then the Salafist in the brown leather coat

approaches and starts to beat him with a metal chain, a punishment

for unIslamic behaviour. Here is another victim of the vigilantes,

he says Salafists armed with swords dragged him from his car when they

found him drinking beer with a friend. TRANSLATION: They were

shouting Allah hu Akbar, and the swords were coming down on my head

and face, I tried to protect myself with my hands, that is why I have

all these cuts on them. How can this happen in this town? On a lazy

summer afternoon it looks like a pretty laid back place. It is

Tunisia's northern-most port, open for centuries to outside cultures,

under French colonialists, and the secular dictatorship that followed,

many Tunisians adopted a relaxed form of Islam, but the revolution

two years ago that started the Arab Spring, reignited the struggle

between liberal values and Islamic fundamentalist ones. Many saw the

uprisings bringing the end of oppression and the start of

democracy. It seems they only opened up the space for a more

intense battle for hearts and minds, but control of the streets and what

could be irreconcilable world views. Here Salafists mounted one of their

most serious challenges to the state.

At the centre of their network a softly spoken shopkeeper. He says

he fought as a Jihadi in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like many

other Salafists he was jailed when he came back to Tunisia. Then he

turned his clothes can I osk into an alternative Islamic law court.

More attractive to some citizens than the state's inefficient and

sometimes corrupt legal system. This woman hopes he can stop her

husband divorcing her, he's threatening to take the family home

After she leaves we're told he sends his followers to talk to her

husband. The marriage is preserved. Meanwhile the parents of a 14-year-

old boy bring a man they say took their son's mobile phone and tried

He says he got the phone back and now the man rarely leaves his home.

Another victory for Islamic justice. With every such victory Salafism

spreads. This man joined the movement after his cafe was robbed

and Salafists brought the stolen goods back. TRANSLATION: People say

Salafists are scary monsters, that is not true, on the contrary, they

are innocent, sweet as lambs. I told you they gave me back my

property. But the state's been fighting back against Salafism. In

this stop-and-search operation, police pick up three men, one has a

cannister of pepper spray, illegal in Tunisia. Since January more than

100 Salafists have been arrested here. TRANSLATION: After the

revolution law and order broke down, we had to regain control, step-by-

step, the state was under threat. Some groups tried to overpower it,

that forced us to act, to put things back how they were before,

to make you Tunisia for all Tunisians again. Last September a

Salafist mob stormed the US embassy in Tunis. In February the secular

opposition leader was buried after he was aasated, police say, by a

militant Salafist group. -- assassinated, police say, by a

militant Salafist group. There was a massive show of force to stop

Salafist from holding a conference. Shortly afterwards the cafe was --

the cloth kiosk was demolished. This is all that remains of the

kiosk, it has been bulldozed by the authorities. He has fled, some say

to Libya, some say to Mali. But the social problems that helped spread

Salafism haven't gone away. But the police are now back in control.

They are taking Newsnight on patrol to prove T the first man they stop

has a Salafist beard. They say they don't target particular groups,

only suspected criminals. We have stopped now because the police just

saw a machine in a black beard, a Salafist, passing us going the

other way on a motorcycle, he wouldn't stop, now they have sent

other men back to try to detain him. Today they uncover a range of petty

crimes, but of the 60 or so Salafists arrested since May, two

face trial on the charge of attempting to replace the state.

This crackdown is happening not under a secular Government, but an

Islamist one. Islamists won the first free elections here, just as

they did in Egypt. But the Government here now is in an

awkward position. It has to reassure secularists, to avoid the

chance of being toppled, as Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood was, but it also

has to retain the loyalty of its own religious constituency.

Protestors were out on the streets of Tunis again last week after

another political killing. Of the left-wing opposition leader,.

Whoever was responsible, many feel democracy is not yet secure.

Back here the annual International Festival is under way. This is

spiritual music, though from the relaxed souf if I tradition. --

Soufi tradition. Some think Tunis is too liberal and diverse a

society to be seriously destablised. But many secular Tunisians like

these are still afraid that their freedoms will gradually be

curtailed. Across town Salah Badrouni's last customer has gone

home. He knows Salafists like him must now lie low for a while, he's

not giving up. TRANSLATION: On the contrary there is no retreat, we

are still going forward. Maybe we can do as much charity work now. We

meet less often because some of our leaders have had to leave Tunisia.

But even if we have had a setback, our sons will continue our path.

Islam will keep pursuing its purpose. It won't be stopped by

anything or anyone. Another night of fundamentalist-flavoured coffee

is over. But the battle for the city goes on.

If someone is gay and seeks the Lord, who am I to judge, the words

of Pope Francis and what some have interpreted as a conciliatory move

towards homosexuals. The Pope added that the problem is not having the

orientation, it is lobbying, that is the most serious problem. And by

lobbying Pope Francis was referring to what is said to be a gay lobby

at the heart of the Vatican's administration.

Two Popes, two very different styles. The previous Pontiff, both

Benedict had a formal and traditional manner, contrast that

with Pope Francis, more relaxed, and you get the point. Pope Francis

has just travelled back from Brazil where he toured the country without

bullet-proof screens and received a reception more akin to a rock star.

He addressed the three-million strong audience in Copacabana Beach,

the biggest audience the world has seen. He spoke to young people

about harnessing their energy and creativity, he said go and don't be

afraid of training. Now in a further break from tradition the

Pope held an impromptu press conference for more than an hour on

the journey home from the Vatican. As well as fielding questions on

the roles of women, he was asked about reports of a gay lobby within

the church. TRANSLATION: A lot is written about the gay loby. I still

haven't seen anyone in the VAT -- lobby. I still haven't seen anyone

in the Vatican with an identity card saying they are gay. The media

say they are there. I think when one is found a person like this we

have to distinguish between the fact that they are a gay person and

the fact that there is a gay lobby. If a person is gay and seeks God

and has goodwill, who am I to judge him? The comments have caused a

stir, how much it will change direction in the church is unclear.

Pope Francis reminded the press while homosexual orientation is not

considered sinful in the Roman Catholic teaching, the homosexual

acts are, the presentation is different but is the essential

message the same. Joining me now is Jo Stanley, who organises a

fortnightly service for gay Catholics, and the editor of the

Catholic Herald. What do you make of what the Pope had to say?

pudsled behind the comment about a gay lobby. But I'm very welcoming

of the change in rhetoric that has come about, the headline, who am I

to judge? I'm interested, you used the word "rhetoric", what does that

mean in the end? It is very clear that he didn't say there was going

to be any change in church teaching. We wouldn't expect him to really.

But by contrast with the last Pope who was a very brilliant man but

really used some extremely uncharitable language towards gay

people at times. This Pope's openness and kind of

approachability I think will make a huge impact on people who are gay

and who are believers. What do you make of it, church teaching I think

is that homosexuality is intrinsically disorders and that

won't change? He wasn't changing that I don't think, but what I was

very interested in was the way that his words, his humble approach,

which said I'm no-one to judge, has really, the potential of changing

the way our church is viewed note only by gay Catholics or by

Catholics within the church but by the outside world. You know to be

seen as a church that is led by a man who says I'm no-one but a

humble servant of God, I'm not saying that gays are excluded, I'm

in fact recognising that gays have made a contribution to my church. I

think that's really important. in the secular world, when you say

things it is nice mood music, but you don't actually change what you

do, that is called spin? I'm not sure that you could ever accuse

this one of spin. What he's trying to say is this is an inclusive

church. Theologically I'm not prepared to move anything because I

can't, by myself. But I am embracing you. And I think that you

talk about mood music, gosh, if the mood in the Catholic Church could

improve I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think you seem to agree

with that. Isn't it just back to an old tradition in various Christian

denominations which is, you hate the sin but you love the sinner?

Yeah. I think there are a couple of things you have to realise. The

first thing is this is being seen as just a discussion of home sexual

acts, fundamental Christian teaches is whether you are straight or gay

or transgender whatever, sex is for marriage. He's not actually, I

think the church doesn't really pick out the gays as such. Jesus

never talked about gays. He is just transmitting the basic Christian

teaching. But it is very noticable that the language, the rhetoric,

the condemnation that has focused so specifically on lesbian and gay

people, over the last 30 years, has driven lots of people out of the

church. Also I think it is not only a principled stand, but it is also

a very traingatic stand, if the Pope were to exclude gays from the

Catholic Church, we would have an emptying of the Catholic Church, we

would have a hollowing out of Catholic culture, hospitals,

schools, churches themselves, and I hate to say it the Vatican too,

apparently. What was this gay lobby comment, which puzzled you? There

has been an Italian journalist who has been investigating the Vatican

over a period of months, and he has revelations, including bugged

telephone calls, which show that there is a very active lobby and

the head of it is allegedly gay and it is a lobby that is trying to

promote not gay rights campaign, but a self-promotion within the

Vatican. Whether any of this is true has yet to be proved.

Uncontestably to be proved. But what we are certain of is this Pope

is saying it is not because there is a gay element to this lobby that

I'm against them. It is the fact that there is machinations and

plotting which is something he doesn't like. There is a number of

politicians feeling the same in our own beloved country. Paul Mason has

been scouring the trollisphere looking for reaction to the item on

the Twitter and rape threats. last night and the arrest was made,

we have been looking at it all day, and the tapering down of overt rape

threats against the people involved, the MPs and campaigners. Small in

number, but as we saw earlier very distressed. We have had one tonight

an overt rape threat and death thread against an MP named. I'm not

going to bother reading it out, graphic, the person is taunting the

police or Twitter, you haven't taken my account down yet, when you

are going to do it. That is there. The problem is tracking them down.

I think we had six hours of human intelligence to track our one.

@beware 008. That has been named by Stella Creasy as a complaint to

Waltham stow police. It took us six hours to try to find where he is,

if not identify the person. The police are up against a huge task

here. But the information coming from those dealing with Twitter,

Twitter haven't been able to speak to us. They will have to up their

game tomorrow? The information coming out of Twitter via third

party sources is Twitter don't believe the police have begun to

ask them for their accounts. (beep) there is another one going up there.

You see two institutions, one of which is deeply rooted in the on-

line world suddenly hit by craziness, and another one deeply

confused by the on-line world and yet as the papers you are about to

see, if that was a note Twitter, rape threat to MP, if it was a