30/07/2013 Newsnight


30/07/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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storm after Newsnight investigated abuse on Twitter last night, there

:00:14.:00:19.

has been an arrest of a 25-year-old man from South Shields. We will

:00:19.:00:24.

have the latest. Having hidden from the press for so long, we will hear

:00:24.:00:28.

from Twitter's head of trust and safety from California. We will

:00:28.:00:32.

speak to Stella Cerasy an MP subject to the most vile abuse

:00:32.:00:39.

herself and a Twitter enthusiast, Toby Young, who says in most cases

:00:39.:00:44.

the trolls should be ignored. The biggest breach of classified

:00:44.:00:51.

information in America in history, Bradley Manning handed out secret

:00:51.:00:56.

information of over 700 classified files. He was found not guilty of

:00:56.:01:01.

aiding the enemy, but as he faces the rest of his life in prison, is

:01:01.:01:06.

he a hero or martyr. We will hear from whistleblowerer Adniel

:01:06.:01:09.

Ellsberg. Does this look deslate to you,

:01:09.:01:14.

there is a fracas about fracking after an MP from the Deep South

:01:14.:01:19.

offered his view about the north- east. There are large uninhabited

:01:19.:01:25.

and desolate areas in the north- east where there is plenty of move

:01:25.:01:30.

for fracking. The Brazilian musician and former Culture

:01:30.:01:33.

Minister, Gilberto Gil, on whether his country's great dream of

:01:33.:01:43.
:01:43.:01:49.

progress and prosperity has begun to come apart. Good evening,

:01:49.:01:51.

following Newsnight's investigation last night of rape threats and

:01:51.:01:56.

other abuse on Twitter, there has been an arrest of a 25-year-old man

:01:56.:02:00.

from South Shields. We tracked down an alleged Twitter troll to an

:02:00.:02:03.

address in the area. The rape threats against Caroline Criado-

:02:03.:02:08.

Perez are just part of the many obscene abusive and sometimes vile

:02:08.:02:12.

lent tweets directed at some women in public life by abusers. We will

:02:12.:02:16.

hear from another one of their targets, the Labour MP, Stella

:02:16.:02:20.

Cerasy in a moment. After avoiding interviews for the past few days we

:02:20.:02:24.

will also hear from a Twitter executive from California. First,

:02:24.:02:27.

Paul Mason on this evening's developments. What has been

:02:27.:02:32.

happening? Over the weekend it took me and another journalist about 12

:02:32.:02:36.

hours over two days to assemble the evidence that linked one of the

:02:36.:02:42.

Twitter accounts that had threatened to rape the two women

:02:42.:02:47.

involved and an internet connection in South Shields in the north-east.

:02:47.:02:53.

So it took quite a long time to do that, the evidence was not straight

:02:53.:02:57.

forward, but we thought compelling. I have spent the afternoon

:02:57.:03:01.

conveying that evidence and explaining it to Northumbria Police,

:03:01.:03:04.

and tonight, as a result of Newsnight's investigation a 25-

:03:05.:03:09.

year-old man in South Shields, as you say, has been arrested on

:03:09.:03:13.

suspicion of harassment as part of the Met's investigation into the

:03:13.:03:18.

attacks on the two women. That case is subdued now and nothing more can

:03:18.:03:23.

be said about it. Secondly that hasn't stopped abuse, another MP

:03:23.:03:27.

has received a direct rape and murder threat, from the same person

:03:27.:03:30.

who was playing cat and mouse, it looks like, last night with the

:03:30.:03:33.

police, saying come on close me down. It shows how hard it is both

:03:33.:03:37.

for Twitter and for the police to even trace somebody like that.

:03:37.:03:41.

Given how hard it was for untrained police people to get their heads

:03:41.:03:45.

around what it is that links one account with another. Now in the

:03:45.:03:48.

course of doing this, it is fairly clear the police are stretched, the

:03:48.:03:53.

detectives who are having to pick up these cases in different parts

:03:53.:03:57.

of Britain are not necessarily the ones who have been trained to do

:03:57.:04:02.

the usual stuff, the stuff aimed at child abusers and porn. It is not

:04:02.:04:05.

necessarily those people who have to pick this up. It can be quite

:04:05.:04:09.

hard for the resources to be assembled. I think that's why the

:04:09.:04:13.

police keep emphasising, they would like Twitter to sort it out.

:04:13.:04:17.

spent the day almost on the trail of a technological solution, as we

:04:17.:04:20.

will see it is not that easy but there are bossablities, in the

:04:20.:04:27.

process we had to talk to some of the called "trolls" who do this. We

:04:27.:04:31.

have expunged all offensive and swearing. We have had to use some

:04:31.:04:37.

of the bad language because that is the language these people speak in.

:04:37.:04:39.

Since high-profile British women got hit with rape threats on

:04:39.:04:43.

Twitter, many of us have seen our timelines filled with shocking

:04:43.:04:48.

abuse and imagery, prompting a very practical question. Just what do

:04:48.:04:53.

you do if your internet timeline on social media gets suddenly swamped

:04:53.:04:57.

with people threatening rape or using extreme imagery of sexual

:04:57.:05:01.

violence, and who are they? I have been talking to the trolls, to

:05:01.:05:05.

people who have studied them and to those trying to come up with a

:05:05.:05:10.

technical solution. Quinn Norton is a US journalist who has studied the

:05:10.:05:16.

trolls and been harassed by them. She thinks demands by Twitter to

:05:16.:05:21.

suspend the accounts won't be enough. It is easy with a basic

:05:21.:05:25.

understanding of programming to autogenerate tonnes of accounts,

:05:25.:05:29.

endlessly, and there isn't really a good way of stopping them. There is

:05:29.:05:34.

so many tools of getting around all the ways to stop. That the best

:05:34.:05:37.

thing to do is let them have their account and to block that account

:05:37.:05:42.

so that you don't see it. Because if you remove that account they are

:05:42.:05:47.

motivated to come back 10,000 fold. When I showed her some of the

:05:47.:05:51.

abusers on my timeline, though we work on different continents, she

:05:51.:05:56.

recognised two immediately as part of a hardcore that had harassed her,

:05:56.:06:00.

prompting the question why not ban them? The social problem is men are

:06:00.:06:04.

raised to hate women. And technology is not going to fix that,

:06:04.:06:07.

what is what will fix that is a societal conversation about why

:06:07.:06:11.

that is and why it shouldn't be. the I was contacted by one of the

:06:11.:06:14.

people involved in directing hardcore rape jokes at women. I had

:06:14.:06:24.
:06:24.:06:52.

But there are technical solution, blogger Rebecca Watson had a bad

:06:52.:06:57.

experience at a conference two years ago. 4.00 am I said I had

:06:57.:07:01.

enough guys and I'm going to bed. I walked to the elevator and a man

:07:01.:07:06.

got on with me and said don't take this the wrong way but I find you

:07:06.:07:09.

very interesting and I would like to talk more, would you like to

:07:09.:07:15.

come to my hotel room for coffee. Just a word to the wise here, guys,

:07:15.:07:20.

don't do that. For saying this she was deluged with abuse on Twitter,

:07:20.:07:24.

in response her supporters set up a programme that monitors and blocks

:07:24.:07:28.

a shared list of abusers, and the man who wrote it talked me through

:07:28.:07:34.

the installation. I will just block the super slimey, the Washington

:07:34.:07:38.

Post. The block works by blocking a list of offenders that is

:07:38.:07:42.

constantly updated by a community, it uses Twitter's own technology,

:07:42.:07:47.

that prompts another question. Why don't Twitter implement what you

:07:47.:07:52.

have done as part of Twitter? question. They certainly could do

:07:52.:07:56.

easily, they have shared lists for following people, they could easily

:07:56.:08:00.

have the ability that people who can create shared lists for

:08:00.:08:03.

blocking people that would be possible. Why don't they?They are

:08:03.:08:07.

so changing their platform, as an IT person I understand why, in

:08:07.:08:11.

terms of keeping stability and the cost of doing that. They have to be

:08:11.:08:14.

very careful they maintain the service. Those who have been around

:08:14.:08:17.

a long time remember when the whole internet was predominantly male,

:08:17.:08:21.

and there are some social media sites now openly struggling to be

:08:21.:08:28.

representative. If you look at other on-line communities, Redet

:08:28.:08:32.

that is predominant low young white males, there is no marginalised

:08:32.:08:35.

groups left there. There is a considerable lack of women and

:08:35.:08:43.

people of colour. Why?These voices don't get heard. Why?I guess and I

:08:43.:08:47.

will get completely flaipltd now, there is racist abuse there,

:08:48.:08:51.

homophobia, mysogynistic abuse there. Why as a woman would you

:08:51.:08:56.

want to go there to get demeaned and put down for being a woman.

:08:56.:09:00.

Twitter, slow to act in the crisis, there is an existential question,

:09:00.:09:03.

it is nothing to do with the blocking mechanism, it is simply

:09:04.:09:08.

are they prepared to see their part of cyberspace become essentially

:09:08.:09:13.

white and male? For a company set to take a billion dollars next year,

:09:13.:09:20.

driven by advertising, that is quite a question.

:09:20.:09:24.

Del Harvey is head of Twitter's trust and safety, I spoke to her

:09:24.:09:27.

from California before we came on air. The British politician, Stella

:09:27.:09:31.

Cerasy, has been repeatedly told on Twitter that she will be raped, why

:09:31.:09:35.

have you done so very little about it? To back up and give you a

:09:35.:09:40.

little bit of context about who I am and why I'm the person here

:09:40.:09:45.

talking to you, along with what's actually so far in this, I'm Del

:09:45.:09:52.

Harvey, I head up the Trust and Safety Department at Twitter, the

:09:52.:09:56.

department to handle users' safety and the like. I have been at

:09:56.:10:00.

Twitter for five years. The CV is very interesting can we move on,

:10:00.:10:05.

why have you done so very little about the threats of rape to a

:10:05.:10:11.

British Labour politician? I think that there is perhaps a Misper

:10:11.:10:16.

exception of how we responded. When we were made aware of the issue

:10:16.:10:24.

over the weekend we had reached out privately to the parties involved,

:10:24.:10:28.

we have been talking with them and with law enforcement. We have been

:10:28.:10:32.

engaged in active dialogue since this weekend and we have been

:10:32.:10:36.

continuing that dialogue. feminist campaigner, Caroline

:10:36.:10:39.

Criado-Perez told me last night that when she complained about rape

:10:39.:10:43.

threats she was blocked by one of your managers. Why would you do

:10:43.:10:49.

that? I can't speak to the details of why he would do that, or what

:10:49.:10:54.

that would mean for him or what that situation was but I can say

:10:54.:11:00.

that's...Is It acceptable in Twitter when someone complains

:11:00.:11:04.

about rape threats for a Twitter executive to block them, is that

:11:04.:11:08.

acceptable to you? I would much rather they tell the person how to

:11:08.:11:11.

report the threat. You going to discipline this guy? He's not in my

:11:12.:11:15.

department, I know we are certainly talking about what happened and why

:11:15.:11:19.

we, quite frankly, didn't provide him with the guidance on what he

:11:19.:11:23.

should do in a situation like that. The thing is, I'm talking to you

:11:23.:11:29.

about rape threats to women and you're talking corporate jiberish?

:11:29.:11:33.

I'm certainly not trying to. The fact of the matter is we do work

:11:33.:11:36.

with law enforcement on issues like these, these sorts of threats are

:11:36.:11:41.

against the rules. We suspend accounts when they are reported to

:11:41.:11:44.

us, we are working to make it easier to report those accounts. We

:11:44.:11:48.

think this is really important. I have spent the majority of my

:11:48.:11:53.

career working on issues tied to this. Before Twitter I worked with

:11:53.:11:58.

domestic violence victims and rape victims, along with law enforcement

:11:58.:12:03.

on the on-line abuse cases, this is something that is so important to

:12:03.:12:07.

us and we care about getting right. If it is so important why are you

:12:07.:12:10.

so slow, why do the women involved say the response is inadequate, why

:12:11.:12:16.

does shadow Home Secretary here say it is inadequate, why is it so

:12:17.:12:21.

inadequate? Part of the challenge is we have a really wide variety I

:12:21.:12:23.

have a bues cases on Twitter. From everything from somebody following

:12:23.:12:27.

someone who they want to see their tweet to someone trying to raise

:12:27.:12:31.

attention to human rights issues, and these sort of changes around

:12:31.:12:35.

how we can make it easier for people to report abuse, we also

:12:35.:12:40.

have to make sure we are building in protections to make sure people

:12:40.:12:43.

aren't being silenced at the same time. How many people do you employ

:12:43.:12:47.

to sort out these very serious threats of sexual violence towards

:12:47.:12:53.

women? There is actually dozens of people in the Trust and Safety Team,

:12:53.:12:57.

which is worth rembering that Twitter is a case with the company

:12:57.:13:02.

got outleapt a bit by the brand and the use of it. The use of Twitter,

:13:02.:13:06.

the countries it is used in, the way it took off like a rocket ship

:13:06.:13:10.

and we are trying to make sure we have everything right that we need

:13:10.:13:13.

to make sure people feel safe on that rocket ship, so to speak.

:13:14.:13:17.

Caroline Criado-Perez said that she hopes what happened to her and to

:13:17.:13:22.

other women here will be a wake-up call to you, I'm just trying to

:13:22.:13:25.

figure out where the wake up is happening. How are you waking up?

:13:25.:13:29.

We have a number of things that we had in development, for example we

:13:29.:13:35.

had launched about three weeks ago the ability to report a tweet from

:13:35.:13:39.

the actual tweet itself on IOS and mobile. This was really underscored

:13:39.:13:43.

to us the need to really push to get that out to all parts of the

:13:43.:13:46.

platform. Because it is really clear that people aren't aware that

:13:46.:13:51.

we do have rules. It is not OK to harass people, it is not OK to

:13:51.:13:55.

threaten them with violence. said you have got dozenss of people

:13:55.:14:00.

working on this, there are 400 million tweets every day, surely it

:14:00.:14:04.

can't be enough? That is part of the reason that users have to

:14:04.:14:08.

report to us as well. That is actually an issue that happens on

:14:08.:14:12.

any platform at scale. Users have to say this is what happened this

:14:12.:14:22.

is not OK. It would be great to prevent abuse before it starts. We

:14:22.:14:27.

have automatic systems that look for spam and take action. But there

:14:27.:14:31.

is always the challenge of context that you can't always get in 140

:14:31.:14:34.

characters, which is why we need users to report. A number of

:14:34.:14:38.

British MPs have a lot of questions they would like to put to Twitter,

:14:38.:14:42.

will you put up perhaps yourself or someone senior from Twitter to come

:14:42.:14:46.

to the United Kingdom and discuss this formally with British Members

:14:46.:14:50.

of Parliament? I haven't heard personally about the request, but

:14:50.:14:54.

we're absolutely open for discussion. This is an area that

:14:54.:14:57.

we're already working with law enforcement, we welcome feedback in

:14:57.:15:02.

terms of areas where they have heard complaints or criticisms. It

:15:02.:15:08.

is really genuinely important to me that we get this right. I can't

:15:08.:15:11.

really underscore that enough. I don't want people to think that we

:15:11.:15:16.

don't take it seriously. Just a final thought, one Conservative

:15:16.:15:21.

woman MP, Claire Perry said she thought about quitting Twitter over

:15:21.:15:24.

this, a number of women have suggested that is a route they

:15:24.:15:27.

considered too. Do you worry that the whole future of Twitter here is

:15:27.:15:32.

in the balance in the sense that you might become just a place where

:15:32.:15:37.

angry men sound off about women and women just don't want to know

:15:37.:15:45.

Twitter? Honestly the biggest thing I worry about is users think we

:15:45.:15:49.

don't care no matter what the abuse they are experiencing or the issue

:15:49.:15:53.

they have. Whether it is this or 100 other things, I want people to

:15:53.:15:56.

understand that we welcome their feedback and guidance on what they

:15:56.:15:59.

are feeling and how we can make it better for them.

:15:59.:16:04.

Thank you very much for joining us, thank you.

:16:04.:16:09.

Stella Cerasy is here, a Labour MP who has been a target of some of

:16:09.:16:15.

the vile threats. And Toby Young, a Twitter enthusiast who has argued

:16:15.:16:21.

blocking and ignoring the abusers is the way forward. What did you

:16:21.:16:24.

make of what you heard there about Twitter saying they are trying to

:16:24.:16:29.

do their best? It is frustrating for those affected that we are

:16:29.:16:32.

hearing different stories from the police and Twitter. It is not the

:16:32.:16:36.

platform itself making people persistently doing this, I'm still

:16:36.:16:40.

receiving rape and death threats today, it is people who are idiots

:16:40.:16:44.

and people who may well be escalating in their violence and

:16:44.:16:48.

aggression towards women. I need to see Twitter working with the law

:16:48.:16:51.

enforcement agencies when you have a serious threat of violence and

:16:51.:16:55.

aggression towards somebody, the way I have experienced, and

:16:55.:17:01.

Caroline and now several members in parliament are experiencing.

:17:01.:17:06.

you encouraged by what you heard from Del Harvey? I was encouraged

:17:06.:17:11.

last night hearing from her but that was four days after, and we

:17:11.:17:17.

were blocked by staff. She has admitted offline she felt it wasn't

:17:17.:17:21.

got right, and my concern is getting it right in the UK, this is

:17:21.:17:25.

about violence against women and this new platform against with this

:17:25.:17:28.

old crime. What about Twitter and the way they are trying to respond

:17:28.:17:32.

to it, it is very difficult for them, she made that quite clear?

:17:32.:17:36.

Twitter's defence at least they have a Trust and Safety Division,

:17:36.:17:42.

manned by human beings. The way Facebook deals with abuse is

:17:42.:17:49.

entirely computerised, if a user is flagged up enough as abusive, there

:17:49.:17:56.

is a mathematical sum that bans them. People can abuse the process

:17:56.:18:03.

by flagging up people who they politically disagree with and get

:18:03.:18:06.

them off. If they are getting somewhere it is very, very slow?

:18:06.:18:11.

That is partly because they are so overwhelmed by reports of abuse.

:18:11.:18:15.

Twitter is used by tens of hundreds of millions people around the world,

:18:15.:18:19.

there are lots and lots of trolls out there. There must be reports of

:18:19.:18:22.

I have a bows that Twitter is being deluged with. Let's talk about the

:18:22.:18:26.

way you both deal with this, you deal with it, you have complained,

:18:26.:18:29.

but you also retweet some of the tweets, you are followed by a lot

:18:29.:18:33.

of people, 32,000 people, some of these rather sad cases are not

:18:33.:18:36.

followed by anybody, however offensive it is you are giving them

:18:36.:18:40.

a megaphone aren't you? I use a range of ways to deal with people

:18:40.:18:44.

who behave in offensive and abusive ways on Twitter, sometimes I will

:18:44.:18:48.

send them pictures of kittens because that is the level of debate

:18:48.:18:52.

they deserve. As Toby knows when he has crossed a line I will retweet

:18:52.:18:56.

issues and say I will challenge and call you out and say is this

:18:56.:19:00.

acceptable behaviour. This is illegal, if someone walked up in

:19:00.:19:04.

the street and someone said they would rape me, as people have on

:19:04.:19:08.

Twitter over the last few days, I would dial 999. We mustn't think

:19:08.:19:13.

because it happens on-line it is less serious. 50% of stalking cases

:19:13.:19:17.

involve both own and off line harassment. These people are not

:19:17.:19:21.

letting go, they need to understand neither are we in treating it

:19:21.:19:24.

seriously. You are saying in most cases you can ignore it? I don't

:19:24.:19:27.

have a problem at all with Stella reporting people who threaten her

:19:27.:19:31.

with violence to the police, and I'm not surprised she's cross that

:19:31.:19:35.

Twitter are not doing more to co- operate with the British police to

:19:35.:19:39.

pursue those people. That is totally understandable. What I'm

:19:39.:19:42.

nervous about is something Stella said to me earlier which is she had

:19:42.:19:46.

a conversation with a woman you just interviewed in which she

:19:46.:19:51.

persuaded her to include the word "harassment" in Twitter's abuse

:19:51.:19:55.

policy, therefore hence forth anyone guilty of harassment will be

:19:55.:19:59.

banned from Twitter. That is a vague and elastic term and open to

:19:59.:20:02.

abuse. The worrying thing about Twitter responding to a complaint

:20:02.:20:08.

by a British politician, in a way which is likely to lead to more

:20:08.:20:12.

sensorous behaviour on Twitter, what do they do if a Chinese

:20:12.:20:16.

politician makes a complaint and wants a change of policy. Saying it

:20:16.:20:23.

is a bit of a wild west and even blocking it doesn't make it go

:20:23.:20:27.

away? It was about particular types of harassment, you can't have it

:20:27.:20:31.

both ways, you can't say they have a manned system to look at the

:20:31.:20:35.

cases so they have a clarity about what harassment is, and then say

:20:35.:20:38.

they shouldn't deal with harassment. I talk about things under the

:20:38.:20:41.

protection of harassment act illegal in this country, they have

:20:41.:20:46.

to have a process in dealing with people get a warning, that is fair,

:20:46.:20:50.

isn't it Toby? Twitter should definitely be held to account for

:20:50.:20:53.

not enforcing its own abuse policy. I read the policy on the way here,

:20:53.:20:57.

it includes not allowing local users to break local laws, you are

:20:57.:21:00.

perfectly right to say they should co-operate with the police if you

:21:00.:21:03.

want people to be prosecuted for breaking harassment laws, what I

:21:03.:21:09.

don't want Twitter to do to go beyond enforcing its existing

:21:09.:21:17.

policies and introduce more censorous policies which would lead

:21:17.:21:22.

to a cleaned up place which isn't what we know and love. Do you agree

:21:22.:21:26.

it is not a technical problem but the way some men behave and our

:21:26.:21:32.

society, and you won't fix that by going to Twitter? We have to call

:21:32.:21:36.

it out and having a process that says if you continue to behave in

:21:36.:21:41.

this way you will face consequences. We need police at a local and

:21:41.:21:44.

national level understand the risks coming from on-line behaviour and

:21:44.:21:48.

how it manifests offline. This is about taking violence against women

:21:48.:21:53.

seriously, Toby I don't think you understand here, nobody is talking

:21:53.:21:57.

stopping you making comments about MPs tits, I would hope you would

:21:57.:22:00.

stop on your own. We are talking about the right to contact people

:22:00.:22:05.

who say offensive and abusive things and there is no recourse for

:22:05.:22:11.

this, Twitter doesn't have a clear line about this and they need to

:22:11.:22:14.

get one. You are saying Twitter needs to jump on anybody being

:22:14.:22:19.

offensive and abusive about women, but ignore people being offensive

:22:19.:22:25.

and abusive towards men. When did I say that. You want to enlist

:22:25.:22:29.

Twitter in your campaign to re- educate men and make them less

:22:29.:22:33.

sexist. Actually I said I would really hope you would get to the

:22:33.:22:36.

21st century and stop tweeting about women's tits in parliament,

:22:36.:22:40.

that is what I said, I also said it is good that Twitter has a proposal

:22:40.:22:43.

where people will look at reports of abuse. What I asked Twitter to

:22:43.:22:46.

do on Monday night was give data and understanding about reports

:22:46.:22:50.

they get so we understand the level of difficulties they are dealing

:22:50.:22:53.

with. The problem you are not facing up to if you do persuade

:22:53.:22:56.

Twitter, if you do enlist Twitter in this political cause of yours,

:22:56.:23:01.

it will be harder for Twitter to resist when they are called up and

:23:01.:23:05.

brow beaten by Chinese politicians or Saudi politicians who try to

:23:05.:23:10.

enlist them in their political cause. You said it is about local

:23:10.:23:15.

laws, harassment is illegal, we have strengthened the laws about

:23:15.:23:18.

stalking. You are rather inconsistent, you want to defend it

:23:18.:23:23.

as a no man's land what everybody says goes or it is not accountable,

:23:23.:23:27.

which is it. If you include the word "harass" in the abuse policy,

:23:27.:23:31.

which you said you persuaded them to do, after a two-hour

:23:31.:23:35.

conversation, that they will go beyond simply asking local users

:23:35.:23:38.

toe abide. There is a legal definition, you know that don't you.

:23:38.:23:42.

It is already in Twitter the's abuse policy to stop people abusing

:23:42.:23:46.

local laws, why do they need to add the word "harass", it sounds like

:23:46.:23:51.

you want them to go beyond it and enlist it in a political campaign.

:23:51.:23:55.

It could lead in not in all cases to be banned but accounts suspended.

:23:55.:23:59.

I'm concerned about it takes me as a British MP to have this change.

:23:59.:24:04.

We haven't got more than 140 characters left. Did you, by any

:24:04.:24:08.

chance tweet about women's tits in parliament? It wasn't my proudest

:24:08.:24:14.

moment, I asked who a particular MP, who one couldn't see the head of

:24:14.:24:18.

but sitting behind Ed Miliband wearing a low-cut dress, I

:24:18.:24:23.

committed the sin of noticing it, that constitutes harassment in some

:24:23.:24:26.

people's views. You can Israel read more of Paul

:24:26.:24:30.

Mason's thoughts and whether there is a tech solution to trolling and

:24:30.:24:37.

what steps he has himself taken on his blog. Still to come: There are

:24:37.:24:44.

large and Ince habited and desolate areas in -- and uninhabited and

:24:44.:24:47.

desolate areas in parts of the north-east where there is plenty of

:24:47.:24:53.

room for fracking. Whoops! Now the case against Bradley Manning was

:24:53.:24:59.

simple, he made public through WikiLeaks the biggest trove of

:24:59.:25:03.

classified information ever, in defiance of his military oath and

:25:03.:25:08.

the law. He as, as the prosecution said, a traiter. The case for him

:25:08.:25:13.

is the files did not put US security at risk but did embarrass

:25:13.:25:18.

the Government. He was a young, niave, good-intentioned sold yes, a

:25:18.:25:23.

whistleblower not a traitor. We will examine both sides of the

:25:23.:25:27.

argument. What is not in doubt is a court has found him guilty of most

:25:27.:25:31.

of the charges against him though not the most serious. He can expect

:25:31.:25:39.

to spend the rest of his life behind bars. This footage was never

:25:39.:25:45.

meant to be seen by you or me, it is from Baghdad 2007 when a US air

:25:45.:25:48.

crew killed a dozen people, including two journalists. Come on

:25:48.:25:54.

fire. It came to light in the biggest leak of classified

:25:54.:25:57.

information in US history, including almost half a million

:25:57.:26:01.

pages of war reports from Iraq and Afghanistan.-And-a-quarter of a

:26:02.:26:06.

million state department cables. -- and 250,000 state department cables.

:26:07.:26:11.

We learned in 2009 America's ambassador in Kabul described the

:26:11.:26:16.

Afghan President as a "paranoid and weak individual", that the US

:26:16.:26:20.

planned to spy on UK secretary- general, Ban Ki-Moon, and that logs

:26:21.:26:25.

from the Iraq War suggested 15,000 more civilian deaths than the US

:26:25.:26:31.

Government had acknowledged. Prosecutors and many of his

:26:31.:26:34.

countrymen called the young soldier, Bradley Manning, a traitor. His

:26:34.:26:40.

supporters said he was a niave but well-intentioned wibble. He himself

:26:40.:26:46.

admitted ten -- whistleblower, he himself admitted to ten of the

:26:46.:26:50.

charges against him, and said he wanted to start a true debate

:26:50.:26:54.

against war and foreign policy. Today at a military base 25-year-

:26:54.:26:58.

old Manning gave no reaction as the verdicts were read out by the

:26:58.:27:01.

military judge. Manning was convicted of 20 out of 22 charges,

:27:01.:27:06.

including six under the Espionage Act. Crucially he was acquitted of

:27:06.:27:12.

the most serious charge of aiding the enemy, which he always denied.

:27:12.:27:16.

Prosecutors said he helped American enemies because files he leaked

:27:16.:27:24.

were allegedly found on discs at Osama Bin Laden's compound.

:27:24.:27:31.

fact that he might be used to embolden future whistleblowers, I

:27:31.:27:37.

don't think that, he faces a century-and-a-half in prison.

:27:37.:27:41.

Future wibbles there will be. The Government -- whistleblowers there

:27:41.:27:45.

will be. The Government is concerned about it and they

:27:45.:27:49.

levelled the aiding the enemy charge against Bradley Manning to

:27:49.:27:57.

set a precedent. I wonder what he's thinking now, Edward Snowden, the

:27:57.:28:01.

US spy who leaked his Government's clandestine surveillance of

:28:01.:28:08.

civilians and is now in his sixth week here in a transit hotel in

:28:08.:28:12.

Moscow seeking asylum somewhere in the world. He's being helped by

:28:12.:28:16.

Julian Assange, himself holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London,

:28:16.:28:22.

and who put Bradley Manning's treasure trove on-line. Tonight on

:28:22.:28:26.

Twitter WikiLeaks called the convictions dangerous national

:28:26.:28:29.

security extremism from the Obama administration. Some think the

:28:29.:28:36.

White House has more than the whistleblowers in its sights they

:28:36.:28:39.

recently accused a Fox News reporter of being a co-conspirator

:28:39.:28:42.

after he reported classified information from a state department

:28:42.:28:48.

source. The first amendment of our constitution says freedom of speech

:28:48.:28:54.

and the press. The courts have determined that speech covers

:28:54.:28:57.

whistleblowers, and the press it speaks for itself. What we are

:28:58.:29:02.

seeing in some of these prosecutions and investigations is

:29:02.:29:09.

a war against the first amendment. A chilling effect on the right of

:29:09.:29:15.

Americans to inform their Government, their fellow citizens,

:29:15.:29:19.

appropriate officials, of official misconduct. Senators will soon

:29:19.:29:23.

debate new laws protecting journalists, but not people like

:29:23.:29:26.

Bradley Manning, who the Government considers a traitor. He left court

:29:26.:29:29.

knowing he might have started a debate about Freedom of Information,

:29:29.:29:33.

but with a hefty prison sentence expected tomorrow, it may not be a

:29:33.:29:40.

debate he can be part of. Adniel Ellsberg is a whistleblower

:29:40.:29:45.

who famously leaked the Pentagon papers in 1971, which revealed

:29:45.:29:50.

details of the American actions during the Vietnam War. With us in

:29:50.:29:55.

Washington DC is David Rivkin, a former White House attorney serving

:29:55.:30:03.

under Reagan and President Bush. Daniel Ellsberg do you think this

:30:03.:30:09.

is a just verdict against Bradley Manning? I think it is

:30:09.:30:13.

unconstitutional when applied to whistleblowering and unauthorised

:30:13.:30:17.

disclosures to the public. I was the first person who faced the

:30:18.:30:22.

charge and the leading attorney of the day said that the law was

:30:22.:30:26.

clearly unconstitutional in that unprecedented use. I would say that

:30:26.:30:31.

the law of the constitution hasn't changed, no legislation has changed.

:30:31.:30:36.

The legal climate has changed so it is less likely that the view would

:30:36.:30:40.

prevail in the Supreme Court today. It was absolutely right. He should

:30:40.:30:44.

have not faced those charges or those views at all. Do you see him

:30:44.:30:47.

then, people see him as a demonstrator, some people do, how

:30:48.:30:53.

do you view him? I think it is outrageous for an American under

:30:53.:30:58.

our constitution to use that term, you know, it is a term, it is the

:30:58.:31:01.

only crime defined in our constitution to limit it to what it

:31:01.:31:05.

was from what it was in the British Empire. That was because the people

:31:05.:31:12.

who founded our constitution were traitors in the eyes of ING Emperor

:31:12.:31:16.

George III. We were founded by traitors, they didn't want a law

:31:16.:31:20.

criticising the King or the Government was treasonous, they

:31:20.:31:24.

made the constitution that way, therefore Bradley Manning was not

:31:24.:31:28.

charged with traesson formally, he couldn't be, because our deaf --

:31:28.:31:33.

trees son, he couldn't be, because it means you have to adhere to the

:31:33.:31:37.

enemies of the United States, and it is clear he didn't do that to

:31:37.:31:45.

Al-Qaeda or the Taliban, as much as I didn't to the vet con. The

:31:45.:31:55.
:31:55.:31:56.

prosecution admitted itself itself to use that. Outrageous. Bradley

:31:56.:32:00.

Manning has been compared to the founding fathers of the United

:32:00.:32:08.

States of America? Rubbish, there is a technical definition of

:32:08.:32:11.

treason in the constitution, that is about the only thing that Mr

:32:12.:32:16.

Ellsberg is right about, that Mr Manning does not meet. The notion

:32:16.:32:24.

that espionage laws and other laws that bar disclosure of classified

:32:24.:32:30.

information utterly misleads the existing juris prudence, it is not

:32:30.:32:33.

worth debating as it is for constitutional lawyers. I'm not a

:32:33.:32:38.

lawyer, but I was the first person charged with that, and Mr Rivkin

:32:38.:32:43.

doesn't know what he's talking about. If I may. Mr Rivkin. If I

:32:43.:32:47.

can talk about it. If it hadn't been for Bradley Manning we

:32:47.:32:51.

wouldn't have found out all the details of the mistreatment of

:32:51.:32:55.

Iraqi prisoners, that may be embarrassing to the United States,

:32:55.:32:58.

but surely that is something with the people of the United States

:32:58.:33:08.
:33:08.:33:08.

would wish to know? It is criminal. Go ahead. We are a nation of laws

:33:08.:33:14.

and not men. We are a Republic, a democracy, we are not a

:33:14.:33:17.

totalitarian regime. If you are confronted with evidence of

:33:17.:33:25.

wrongdoing. I disagree that abuses that came out were nothing to do

:33:25.:33:28.

with Mr Manning. Both of our countries believe in the rule of

:33:28.:33:37.

law and procedures of laws, whoa made Mr Manning and Edward Snowden

:33:37.:33:42.

God, who allowed them to decide abuses occurred and then offer

:33:42.:33:46.

reams of information and nobody elected them or appointed them. In

:33:46.:33:51.

a democracy that is not how you proceed, that is the fundamental

:33:51.:33:55.

problem with the self-appointed prophets of openness. The debate

:33:55.:34:00.

now taking place in Congress, with 205 votes voting for the first time

:34:00.:34:05.

to rein in the NSA would not be taking place if Edward Snowden had

:34:05.:34:09.

done anything differently than what he did do. He had been tout of the

:34:10.:34:14.

country as he saw from -- he had to be out of the country as he saw

:34:14.:34:18.

from Bradley Manning and incommunicado as he is right now.

:34:18.:34:21.

We owe him a great debt for starting the possibility of

:34:21.:34:24.

remaining a democracy and not becoming the police state of which

:34:24.:34:30.

we now have the infrastructure. The architecture, the archives.

:34:30.:34:35.

Rivkin? Let me say the following, the essence of American

:34:35.:34:40.

constitutional order and for that an order of any democracy is that

:34:40.:34:43.

processes and procedures matter more than specific policy outcomes.

:34:43.:34:49.

Even if you take Mr Ellsberg at his word that we some how became a

:34:49.:34:54.

fascist totalitarian state. Don't misquote me Mr Rivkin. OK, even if

:34:54.:35:00.

it were true, even if it were true horrific abuses are occuring, which

:35:00.:35:04.

they are not, this is not the right way to proceed. Our constitution,

:35:04.:35:08.

Bill of Rights, separation of powers, is essentially about how we

:35:08.:35:13.

as a body and society deal with problems. Having people break that

:35:14.:35:19.

oath and take it upon themselves. With respect Sir you don't

:35:19.:35:24.

understand anything about American political systems, or political

:35:24.:35:28.

philosophy. It is again not about your outcomes it is about how you

:35:28.:35:33.

go about solving problems. Do you believe for example with injustice

:35:33.:35:38.

we should take arms and rise in rebellion to cure this injustice.

:35:38.:35:44.

You misquote me. Let's not do the War of Independence all over again.

:35:44.:35:47.

What impact do you think this will have and The Snowman case will have

:35:47.:35:52.

on whistleblowers in the future? I'm very encouraged by the fact

:35:52.:35:55.

there is at last the discussion taking place in the Congress for

:35:55.:36:01.

the first time on the fact that the reforms instituted by the church

:36:01.:36:06.

committee have failed. The Pfizer amendment court has failed as a use

:36:06.:36:10.

of the judicial terrain in the abuses of the NSA, the intelligence

:36:10.:36:15.

committees have failed. In fact the idea that President Obama has said

:36:16.:36:19.

the three branches of Government have participated in this when what

:36:19.:36:23.

you have is a secret briefing of a gang of eight in the Congress,

:36:23.:36:28.

secret decisions on secret law by a secret court, the amendment court,

:36:28.:36:32.

that constitutes oversight and separation of powers, is simply

:36:32.:36:38.

absurd to say that. The fact is our secrecy system is put. Gentlemen we

:36:38.:36:42.

have run out of time. Now the North-South divide is something

:36:42.:36:46.

that worries politicians in all the main political parties w Labour in

:36:46.:36:50.

recent years stronger in Scotland and the north of England and the

:36:50.:36:53.

Conservatives stronger in the other end of the country. Today that

:36:53.:36:58.

divide was made flesh in the shape of a living, breathing Conservative

:36:58.:37:02.

peer, Lord Howell of Guildford who talking about the north-east of

:37:02.:37:07.

England as good for fracking to produce energy, because of large

:37:07.:37:11.

desolate areas. The result was a small political earthquake. First a

:37:11.:37:14.

bit of background, the Government, at least the Conservative portion

:37:14.:37:17.

of the Government loves the idea of fracking, led by the Chancellor,

:37:17.:37:21.

George Osborne, who has looked with some envy across the Atlantic at

:37:21.:37:25.

cheaper energy prices that have come about on the back of fracking.

:37:25.:37:29.

As a result economic growth and energy-intensive industries being

:37:29.:37:33.

re-born in the United States N this country we are at a far earlier

:37:33.:37:36.

stage. It is still very controversial, we are at the

:37:36.:37:40.

evaluation stage, we are at testing and evaluations and seeing if this

:37:40.:37:44.

thing will work. We are also at the stage of protest. People worried

:37:44.:37:47.

about what might happen to their community. It is a very delicate

:37:47.:37:50.

stage. The Government wants to get something done, people are worried

:37:50.:37:56.

about it. Into this very delicate balance step forward Lord Howell,

:37:56.:37:59.

former Conservative Energy Secretary way back, he was in Mrs

:37:59.:38:04.

Thatcher's first cabinet. What did he have to say? Would the minister

:38:04.:38:08.

accept it could be a mistake to think of and discuss fracking in

:38:08.:38:12.

terms of the whole UK in one go, there are obviously are in

:38:12.:38:15.

beautiful rural areas, where it is not just the drilling and the

:38:15.:38:18.

fracking which I think are exaggerated but the trucks and the

:38:18.:38:22.

delivery and the roads and disturbance, those are justified

:38:22.:38:26.

worries. But there are large and uninhabited and desolate areas,

:38:26.:38:31.

certainly up in parts of the north- east where there is plenty of room

:38:31.:38:41.
:38:41.:38:44.

for fracking.... ( talking and laughter) well away from anybody's

:38:44.:38:47.

residence without any threat to the rural environment. That brought the

:38:47.:38:51.

House down, he's not a Government minister, why does anybody care?

:38:51.:38:55.

Downing Street has been quick to point that out, he doesn't speak

:38:55.:39:00.

for anybody except himself. Why is it making the news? Two reasons I

:39:00.:39:03.

suspect, we are on the doorstep of the silly season, the Commons has

:39:03.:39:07.

packed up and headed off for the summer break. The Lords is still

:39:07.:39:12.

sitting just, but there is a lack of political news around and there

:39:12.:39:16.

was another reason did I mention that Lord Howell is George

:39:16.:39:19.

Osborne's father-in-law. No man or woman can be held responsible for

:39:19.:39:22.

what their father-in-law had to saying, I suspect the Chancellor

:39:23.:39:27.

would have father his wife's dad picked his words a little more

:39:27.:39:32.

carefully. What has been the reaction? Labour MPs have said this

:39:32.:39:35.

shows that Conservatives are out- of-touch, that they are hostile in

:39:35.:39:38.

fact to other parts of the country apart from the south-east of

:39:38.:39:41.

England. On Twitter we have heard about the nasty Side of Twitter

:39:41.:39:44.

this evening, there has been some fun to be had. Particularly from

:39:44.:39:47.

people posting rather lovely pictures of the north-east of

:39:47.:39:53.

England, of which we can see a selection here. Under the hashtag

:39:53.:39:59.

desolate. Lord Howell has issued a statement apologising, he said he

:39:59.:40:04.

never intended to say the north- east of desolate, he said there are

:40:04.:40:08.

parts of the country less densely inhabited than others. The north-

:40:08.:40:14.

east is less densely inhabited, there are two out of 29 MPs

:40:14.:40:17.

Conservative, I don't suspect what happened today will improve that

:40:17.:40:22.

proportion any time soon. Brazil was once the ultimate

:40:22.:40:25.

fantasy destination, the beaches, the carnival, the music, the

:40:25.:40:29.

football, more recently the Brazilian dream has included rapid

:40:29.:40:34.

economic growth, putting the bee in the called BRIC countries, was that

:40:34.:40:38.

another fantasy? This summer has seen riots across Brazil, the

:40:38.:40:43.

Pope's visit this month highlighted great equalities. One man who ought

:40:43.:40:48.

to know the Brazilian realitys is former Culture Minister and

:40:48.:40:54.

musician, Gilberto Gil, we caught up with him here on the summer

:40:54.:41:01.

festival circuit. This is what cabinet ministers do after they

:41:01.:41:11.

leave office. Well Brazilian cabinet ministers, to be fair.

:41:11.:41:21.
:41:21.:41:28.

Gilberto Gil, former Culture Secretary, to be specific, Hello,

:41:28.:41:35.

I'm Stephen, very nice to meet you. Newsnight met him in a corner of

:41:35.:41:40.

the WOMAD music festival. We have cleared a space in the woods for U

:41:40.:41:44.

We began by talking about the recent riots in his homeland, he

:41:44.:41:51.

believes they were coming for a long time. I see as a natural

:41:51.:42:01.
:42:01.:42:04.

consequence of you know everything that's been going on. Globally.

:42:04.:42:09.

People having access to information and to possibilities to act

:42:09.:42:15.

politically and everything, and of course I mean in the new element,

:42:15.:42:22.

they are the new technologies. The World Cup and the Olympics and

:42:22.:42:27.

the expenditure for putting those games together, they are just

:42:27.:42:34.

triggering elements for something that has been accumulating for

:42:34.:42:38.

longer and longer and longer. was no surprise to you? For me, no.

:42:38.:42:45.

No surprise. I think the world was surprised. The world...It Shouldn't

:42:45.:42:55.
:42:55.:42:56.

Gil has mixed the musical traditions of his huge country with

:42:56.:43:00.

western styles, as a new documentary shows. He has been a

:43:00.:43:05.

social reformer and political activist. Thrown in jail for his

:43:05.:43:12.

pains in the late 60s under a military dictatorship. A decade ago

:43:12.:43:17.

he was in power himself. In the centre left Government of President

:43:17.:43:21.

Lula. A bit of a lifestyle change for a

:43:21.:43:27.

strolling Troubadour. Being there and having to deal with

:43:27.:43:37.

the whole you know state affair thing it's hard. It is difficult.

:43:37.:43:42.

Once upon a time it might have been Gil hosting the Pope on his first

:43:42.:43:48.

overseas visit to Brazil. He's going to the favelas, to the slums,

:43:48.:43:58.
:43:58.:43:58.

and telling people keep on trying, you know. Carry on. Struggle. Don't

:43:58.:44:02.

submit yourselves. So in a sense he's playing the game. He is from

:44:02.:44:11.

Argentina, he's from a background of enduring and supporting workers

:44:11.:44:17.

and supporting poor communities and everything. So he knows you know.

:44:17.:44:24.

He's in, he's in his place. The World Cup is happening in

:44:24.:44:28.

Brazil next year, how do you think it is going to go, will it pass off

:44:28.:44:32.

peacefully? We just had the Confederation Cup a month, less

:44:32.:44:38.

than a month ago. We had, we're able to open the new stadiums, you

:44:39.:44:45.

know. With riots going on down the streets? With riots going on down

:44:45.:44:53.

the streets, and I mean both things at the same time. I think that will

:44:53.:44:56.

prevail for the World Cup and for the Olympics too. You think they

:44:56.:45:03.

will pass off peacefully? I think so. I think so.

:45:03.:45:07.

# So don't worry # About a thing

:45:07.:45:11.

# Because everything will be all right

:45:11.:45:14.

Gilberto Gil's tribute to Bob Marley, both to be considered stars

:45:14.:45:19.

of world music. Is that a good category to be in? Or a bit of a

:45:19.:45:29.
:45:29.:45:29.

pigeonhole? ,r It's a little unfair in that sense, but at the same time

:45:29.:45:36.

it gives the world, you know, a goal, a chance to say we have a

:45:36.:45:42.

global music, we have a universal language. So from that side it is a

:45:42.:45:52.
:45:52.:45:54.

little positive. Whatever you call it, Gil, at 71,

:45:54.:46:00.

continues to bring his music from Bahia in Brazil to the sun-kissed

:46:00.:46:09.

Savannahs of the UK and beyond. I have been able to survive, I have

:46:09.:46:15.

been able to you, you know, to do my thing, to do my travellings, to

:46:15.:46:20.

do my, I have also as well great support from the industry and great

:46:20.:46:30.
:46:30.:46:32.

support from the society, from the public. And you will keep going?

:46:32.:46:35.

Until I die I hope! Nice to meet you.

:46:35.:46:38.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Gavin Esler.


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