08/08/2013 Newsnight


08/08/2013

President Obama warns that Russia is in a cold-war mentality as he cancels talks. And are we risking the country's future by investing in the wrong internet technology?


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that Russia has returned to a Cold War mentality as he cancels talks

:00:17.:00:23.

in Moscow over The Snowman affair and condemns new anti-gay laws. A

:00:23.:00:28.

few weeks ago he and President Putin seemed so happy together. Do

:00:28.:00:32.

we fundamentally misunderstand Russia, do they long to be back in

:00:32.:00:37.

the USSR. We speak to guests in Washington, New York and in the

:00:37.:00:41.

studio. The Government promised broad band fast and furious, even

:00:42.:00:47.

to some of the most remote locations. As they push the target

:00:47.:00:56.

back are they putting the future prosperity at risk. The future is

:00:56.:01:01.

about lots of width in every direction. We need bidirectional

:01:01.:01:04.

broadband, we have invested in fundamentally the wrong technology.

:01:04.:01:08.

Tonight there are claims of an attempt on President Assad's life.

:01:08.:01:11.

His enemies may have had a bad start to the summer, but now there

:01:11.:01:18.

is evidence that things may be changing. Back in May the

:01:18.:01:24.

Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, enjoyed a dinner as guest speaker

:01:24.:01:30.

at a group called Traditional Britain, now alerted on their views

:01:30.:01:34.

on immigration he feels shocked, I will ask why he felt the need to

:01:34.:01:44.
:01:44.:01:46.

say so. Do we understand what makes Russia tick, there was a belief

:01:46.:01:51.

that Russia would open up like a can of caviar and all the old

:01:51.:01:55.

paranoia and mistrust of the west would disappear. Now President

:01:55.:02:02.

Obama insensed by the Snowden affair has said that Russia has a

:02:02.:02:07.

Cold War mentality, and after the passing of anti-gay laws, there are

:02:07.:02:14.

calls from some, Stephen Fry, among them, for a boycott of the Winter

:02:14.:02:18.

Olympics. But a democratic parliament has passeded that law

:02:18.:02:24.

and Vladimir Putin's ratings haven't nose dived. Vladimir Putin

:02:24.:02:28.

has again been clashing with critics inside Russia and abroad.

:02:28.:02:32.

While still revelling in his image as a hard man.

:02:32.:02:36.

Over the past 24 hours he has scuppered plans for a proposed

:02:36.:02:41.

summit with President Obama by granting tempry asylum to Edward

:02:41.:02:46.

Snowden. While Russia's new anti- gay legislation has led for calls

:02:46.:02:51.

for the country to be striped of the forth coming Winter Olympics.

:02:51.:03:01.
:03:01.:03:02.

What is Vladimir Putin's agenda? Relations with the US have been

:03:02.:03:05.

chilly ever since Putin returned to the Kremlin for a third term last

:03:05.:03:11.

year. The Russians were furious at America's Magnitsky Act, named in

:03:11.:03:21.
:03:21.:03:24.

honour of a whistle blowing lawyer. He -- Obama and Putin last met at

:03:24.:03:30.

the G8 summit in June. Now comes Obama's cancellation of their one-

:03:30.:03:33.

to-one meeting next month. The White House cited a lack of

:03:34.:03:37.

progress on missile defence, trade, global security and human rights,

:03:37.:03:41.

and of course there is The Snowman question. President Obama said he

:03:41.:03:48.

was "disappointed -- the Snowden question. President Obama said he

:03:48.:03:58.
:03:58.:04:04.

I think Putin has deliberately decided to poke Obama in the eye.

:04:04.:04:07.

Even before Snowden, this was not a happy relationship between the

:04:07.:04:11.

United States and Russia. There has been a chapter of events that have

:04:11.:04:15.

deeply upset Putin, maybe something went wrong at the G8 summit in

:04:15.:04:18.

Northern Ireland. This has been a deliberate act decided by the

:04:18.:04:22.

Kremlin. Don't believe any of that Russian stuff about low-level

:04:22.:04:32.

officials having taken the decision. Putin's election campaign last year

:04:32.:04:36.

was marked by a series of mass protests in Moscow and other major

:04:36.:04:42.

cities. His reaction, according to Human Rights Watch was to introduce

:04:42.:04:47.

curbs on public demonstrations and a wider definition of treason, what

:04:47.:04:51.

they described as the worst political crackdown in Russia's

:04:51.:04:56.

post-soviet history. The pop group, Pussy Riot, became the

:04:56.:05:00.

international symbol of the protests. After being arrested

:05:00.:05:04.

performing an anti-Putin anthem in a Cathedral. Two band members are

:05:04.:05:13.

serving jail sentences in remote prison colonies for racism

:05:13.:05:15.

highlighted and politically motivated. In June the Russian

:05:15.:05:18.

parliament approved a new law, allowing jail sentences for

:05:18.:05:23.

offending religious feelings. Along with another controversial new

:05:24.:05:29.

federal law banning gay propaganda aimed at minors, which also imposes

:05:29.:05:33.

fines on those holding gay pride rallies. It is already having an

:05:33.:05:37.

effect. This gay rights demonstration last week was broken

:05:37.:05:42.

up by paratroopers. Scenes like this, it is argued, help Putin

:05:42.:05:48.

maintain his power base. He needs to consolidate his power

:05:48.:05:53.

base and he sees it as the conservative portion of the

:05:53.:05:57.

politician, whether using devisive issues like gays, Snowden, NGOs,

:05:57.:06:03.

what have you, he can drive a wedge between those positions by the

:06:03.:06:06.

liberal opposition, which are liberal and broad and western-

:06:06.:06:09.

looking and the core conservative traditional values, as he would

:06:09.:06:15.

couch them, he would see them as Putin's majority.

:06:15.:06:19.

But Russia's repressive new laws could have international

:06:19.:06:24.

implications. In February next year the 22nd Winter Olympics to be held

:06:24.:06:28.

in Sochi, a Russian city on the black sea. The Russian Sports

:06:28.:06:31.

Minister said while the rights of athletes competing will be

:06:31.:06:34.

respected, they would have to respect the laws of the country.

:06:34.:06:39.

Including the anti-gay laws. The actor and writer Stephen Fry has

:06:39.:06:42.

called for Russia to be striped of the Olympic event as a protest over

:06:42.:06:52.
:06:52.:07:09.

Putin, a man who loves his macho image doesn't seem to care. Russia

:07:09.:07:14.

is increasingingly divided, but he's not worried by the liberals or

:07:14.:07:17.

educated urban opposition, so long as well over half the country

:07:17.:07:21.

support him and his conservative nationalist agenda, as it seems

:07:21.:07:26.

they do. He clearly feels he can do what he wants.

:07:26.:07:33.

Joining us from Washington we have Julia Ioffe, a former Moscow

:07:33.:07:40.

correspondent for the New Yorker, a LGBT rights activist, Nancy

:07:40.:07:47.

Goldstein, Ilya Ponomarev, an activist against Putin, and

:07:47.:07:52.

Alexander Nekrassov, a former Kremlin adviser. First of all, this

:07:52.:07:57.

idea, particularly on the Snowden affair, that Putin is poking Obama

:07:57.:08:01.

in the eye is one thing, on the anti-gay legislation, as it was

:08:01.:08:05.

said in the film, this appeals to traditional Russia values, would

:08:05.:08:10.

you say, actually, that he has Putinism, and it has the backing of

:08:10.:08:15.

the majority of the Russian people? You see I think that both notions,

:08:15.:08:20.

the notion about Snowden and the notion about these anti-gay laws

:08:20.:08:25.

and many other conservative pieces of legislation that were passed

:08:25.:08:30.

recently, they were all driven by internal politics. Putin badly

:08:30.:08:33.

needs to consolidate this conservative part of the society,

:08:34.:08:38.

which represents basically around two thirds of the Russian

:08:38.:08:43.

population. His support base is deteriorating very rapidly recently

:08:43.:08:48.

and without getting those guys together, without proving that he

:08:48.:08:52.

is the man for the stability of the country, and for this traditional

:08:52.:08:57.

Russian values, indeed, without that he cannot preserve his power.

:08:57.:09:01.

But Alexander Nekrassov, it is also, is it not about distancing himself

:09:01.:09:06.

from the west. Saying that Russia can be great again, it is the

:09:06.:09:09.

resurgence of the church and so forth, it is the clampdown of the

:09:09.:09:12.

whole Pussy Riot business, it is him saying that he stands for a

:09:12.:09:16.

particular kind of, as it were, conservative Russia? In a sense,

:09:16.:09:22.

yes. He has to respect the views of the people who live in Russia. Not

:09:22.:09:27.

listen to what what western powers are saying to him. We saw images

:09:27.:09:31.

there of young Russian children attacking gay protestors, I mean is

:09:31.:09:35.

that what Russia, is that the future for Russia? First of all

:09:35.:09:39.

this law has been misinterpreted and I think there is a lot of

:09:39.:09:45.

confusion around it. Because this law was about protecting the

:09:45.:09:50.

children and protecting their welfare. From what?From any sort

:09:50.:09:53.

of propaganda, including any pornography or anything at all.

:09:53.:09:58.

Let's be clear. That is part of the law. But the thrust of the law, it

:09:58.:10:03.

would appear, is that it is saying that relations between people of

:10:03.:10:07.

the same-sex cannot be discussed or represented in front of children.

:10:07.:10:13.

Now if children get that sense they also get the sense that in itself

:10:13.:10:20.

is wrong, do you believe in Russia that gay relationships are wrong?

:10:20.:10:24.

Do we believe in Russia. No, I'm explaining to you about the law, we

:10:24.:10:29.

are getting confused by that law and Mr Fry got confused by it as

:10:29.:10:34.

well. It is about preventing children from having any

:10:34.:10:39.

information about hetrosexual sex or gay sex all of it, together.

:10:39.:10:42.

That was thrown out. We are witnessing now that we are only

:10:42.:10:46.

sticking to one part of that law. Nancy Goldstein, you have heard

:10:46.:10:49.

what Alexander Nekrassov says, that actually you got the wrong end of

:10:49.:10:55.

the stick here, this is not actually a piece of anti-gay

:10:55.:10:58.

legislation, it is protecting children from all sorts of things

:10:58.:11:01.

including pornography? I would remind the gentleman that the

:11:01.:11:05.

children of Russia are standing there on the streets watching the

:11:05.:11:08.

police beat peaceful protestors bloody. So I don't think that is

:11:08.:11:11.

the best influence on them either. And in fact we are going to have a

:11:11.:11:16.

chance to see if the gentleman is correct about the interpretation of

:11:16.:11:22.

the law. A Russian gay activist stood on the steps of a library in

:11:22.:11:26.

Moscow and unfurled a banner that said "homosexuality is normal".

:11:26.:11:29.

He's the first person to be arrested and indicted under the new

:11:30.:11:34.

law, we are watching his trial with great, great interest to see

:11:34.:11:37.

exactly how this law will be interpret. Let me put that to

:11:37.:11:41.

Alexander Nekrassov. Was it right to arrest him. Homosexuality is

:11:41.:11:46.

normal, what is so provocative about saying that? I can't comment

:11:46.:11:52.

on individual cases. Do you agree with his arrest? What I can say to

:11:52.:11:58.

the American guest, is her country support countries like Saudi Arabia

:11:58.:12:01.

where gays and lesbians are arrested and tortured, we are

:12:02.:12:05.

missing a big point here. Let's go through all the countries in the

:12:05.:12:09.

Middle East and outside who America supports and arms and gives money

:12:09.:12:16.

to and ask them why don't they ask them. Why don't they ask China

:12:16.:12:24.

about that? Let me bring in Julia Ioffe there. You are a resident

:12:24.:12:28.

American. Do you think we misunderstand what is happening in

:12:28.:12:35.

Russia in the west, do we actually understand the Russian psyche?

:12:35.:12:38.

don't think we're misinterpreting it. One thing that we are missing

:12:38.:12:45.

here is that if you are a foreigner who is found to be guilty of

:12:45.:12:50.

propagaging gay propaganda, which includes not talking about

:12:50.:12:55.

hetrosexual sex, but saying that hetrosexual relationships are equal

:12:55.:12:59.

to homosexual relationships, for saying things like homosexual

:12:59.:13:03.

relationships are normal. If a foreigner is convicted of doing

:13:03.:13:09.

that a Russian faces a fine, a foreigner convicted of it faces

:13:09.:13:19.
:13:19.:13:19.

potential jail time. And if we're talking about, China, Saudi Arabia,

:13:19.:13:23.

they don't pretend to be part of Europe and are not party to any

:13:23.:13:26.

European conventions. They don't sit around talking about how they

:13:26.:13:29.

are an integral part of European culture and part of the civilised

:13:29.:13:33.

world. They say we are China, we're going to do things our way, get out

:13:33.:13:37.

of our business. Russia tries to be part of the west and says, when it

:13:37.:13:40.

is convenient for Russia says, no, no, no get out, this is not

:13:40.:13:46.

something we want in our country. What President Obama has said is

:13:46.:13:51.

that there is a neo-Cold War going on here, that the distance between

:13:51.:13:56.

the west and Russia is becoming greater. Alexander Nekrassov do you

:13:56.:14:00.

worry about that? I worry about things when an American President

:14:00.:14:05.

goes on a chat show and says things like that on a comedy chat show.

:14:05.:14:10.

Where he's wrong is that we will always have cycles and we will

:14:10.:14:13.

always see politicians saying things, posturing and so on, what I

:14:13.:14:17.

see from another side is the economic ties and links are

:14:18.:14:21.

strengthening. Americans invest a lot of money into Russia, the

:14:21.:14:25.

British invest a lot of money. I can tell you, for example, if you

:14:25.:14:29.

compare Russia and America, who is more friendly to Britain, BP is

:14:29.:14:33.

being torn apart from Britain, where as BP in Russia was given 20%

:14:33.:14:37.

of the biggest oil co-operation in the world. Isn't --Corporate in

:14:37.:14:46.

the world. Isn't that the case, the real politic of this is there may

:14:46.:14:49.

be concerns over freedoms and rights for gay people, but at the

:14:49.:14:53.

end of the day it is about hard cash and up people like BP who are

:14:53.:14:57.

presumably not going to pull out of Russia because they don't like what

:14:57.:15:04.

President Putin is doing on the civil discourse? Putin always is

:15:04.:15:08.

very pragmatic. He always divides the issues of civil rights and all

:15:08.:15:14.

this blah blah like he wants to say. And real business. So, of course,

:15:15.:15:21.

BP is more than welcome, any other western corporations, they are more

:15:21.:15:27.

than welcome. They appear to be the first who actually praise all

:15:27.:15:33.

Putin's wrong doings against civil society in Russia. For example the

:15:33.:15:38.

current CEO of British Petroleum was the first one who praised

:15:38.:15:46.

imprisonment of Karakofski, to gain more rights for his oil company to

:15:46.:15:50.

get more oil deposits in Russia, that is very unfortunate. But the

:15:50.:15:54.

fact, of course, Putin's own business is all in the western

:15:54.:15:59.

world. So what he wants to do is divide and conquer. He wants

:15:59.:16:03.

Russian society to drift apart from the western society. But he wants

:16:03.:16:09.

his own team to be in the west. Julie, isn't the reality that these

:16:09.:16:13.

big economic and business ties will survive no matter the regime in

:16:13.:16:19.

Russia? I wouldn't quite put it that way. First of all, when we are

:16:19.:16:24.

talking about the US we greatly overstatement the economic ties.

:16:24.:16:28.

Russia is in 20th place when it comes to trading partners with the

:16:28.:16:33.

US. There are plenty of other countries ahead of the pack. We see

:16:33.:16:37.

that BP has scaled back its operations in Russia. BP had quite

:16:37.:16:42.

a hard time in Russia. A lot of countries, a lot of companies do

:16:42.:16:47.

struggle with the endemic and unpredictable corruption in Russia,

:16:47.:16:51.

where corruption isn't just greasing the wheels of a

:16:51.:16:54.

bureaucratic system, but where the state comes to you and extorts

:16:54.:16:58.

money. If we are talking about the Olympics, the place where there is

:16:58.:17:01.

the most corruption is Sochi and the projects going on around the

:17:01.:17:06.

Olympics to prepare the city. Goldstein, on the question, let me

:17:06.:17:12.

bring you in, on the question of boycott, you are not going to get a

:17:12.:17:16.

boycott of Sochi are you? In fact if the International Olympic

:17:16.:17:19.

Committee follows the own charter which says it will act against

:17:19.:17:24.

discrimination of any kind regarding the games, the IOC should

:17:24.:17:28.

move Sochi, I'm sure that Vancouver and Utah would be happy for the

:17:28.:17:31.

business. I want to say on the discussion of real politics, the

:17:31.:17:34.

rest of the world understands those politic too, that is why we are not

:17:34.:17:39.

aiming at a target as small as the Kremlin's heart. We are aiming for

:17:39.:17:46.

the wallet. And people like NBC and Coca-Cola and Visa and Panasonic

:17:46.:17:50.

and other companies all understand the value of not just American

:17:50.:17:54.

consumers and certainly not just American gay consumers, but decent

:17:54.:18:00.

people all over the western world who will boycott their products if

:18:00.:18:03.

they continue to espouse liberal politics and pro-gay politics in

:18:03.:18:07.

their organisations and support a dictator in terms of a corporate

:18:07.:18:11.

sponsorship of Sochi. The Conservative backbencher, Jacob

:18:11.:18:15.

Rees-Mogg, was today forced to distance himself from a political

:18:15.:18:20.

Campaign Group whose dinner he addressed in May. A posting on the

:18:20.:18:24.

Traditional Britain Facebook page after the dinner apined that Doreen

:18:24.:18:28.

Lawrence, recently awarded a peerage, should, along with

:18:28.:18:33.

millions of others, be requested to return to their natural homelands.

:18:33.:18:37.

Jacob Rees-Mogg said he was shocked and that he had associated himself

:18:37.:18:41.

with the group. Did he know the tenor of the organisation he was

:18:41.:18:50.

addressing? If not, why not? If so why did he have to apologise. This

:18:50.:18:54.

was the black tie dinner at the East India Club in May at which

:18:54.:18:57.

Jacob Rees-Mogg spoke as guest of honour. Knowledge of which has only

:18:57.:19:02.

just come to light. It is not anything he said there that has

:19:02.:19:06.

caused offence, but his presence at the Traditional Britain group in

:19:07.:19:10.

the first place. They have posted derrogatory comments on the

:19:11.:19:20.
:19:21.:19:31.

Facebook page about the recently Jacob Rees-Mogg says he's shocked

:19:31.:19:34.

by the comment and has disassociated himself from the

:19:34.:19:38.

group. He says he was unaware of their views that Conservative

:19:38.:19:42.

Central Office hadn't been able to give him any information on them.

:19:42.:19:47.

But a very quick internet search and you can tell what the leanings

:19:47.:19:51.

of the Traditional Britain group are. Under a list of 21 standpoints,

:19:51.:19:56.

as they call them. You have things like "we believe our country is

:19:56.:20:00.

best served by our indigenous customs and traditions", then "we

:20:00.:20:06.

are opposed to internationalism and globalisation", and "we are opposed

:20:06.:20:11.

to mass immigration and multiculturalism". The day before

:20:11.:20:15.

the event this anti-fascism and racism campaign warned Mr Jacob

:20:15.:20:18.

Rees-Mogg in a phone conversation not to attend. I said these are

:20:18.:20:28.

really nasty People. -- nasty People. On the scale of being a bit

:20:28.:20:36.

naughty to being really nasy, I think they are very dangerous. They

:20:36.:20:40.

hide mind the cloak of being traditional Conservatives, but many

:20:40.:20:45.

are National Associationists. did he say? It was a revelation, he

:20:45.:20:49.

said he had given his word to attend and it is the last minute,

:20:49.:20:56.

it is 24-hours before the speech. I'm really disinclined to let

:20:56.:21:01.

people down. How we can possibly be giving a billion pounds a month in

:21:01.:21:08.

this sort of debt to Skup bongo bongo land. Today's revelations

:21:08.:21:14.

come after Godfrey Bloom was filmed making these comments. UKIP is

:21:14.:21:19.

picking up more votes from exConservatives than any other

:21:19.:21:22.

party. If you are a Conservative you want to speak to those groups

:21:22.:21:26.

on the right of politics to reaffirm your credentials as true

:21:26.:21:30.

blue, in whatever sense that might mean to traditional supporters. But

:21:30.:21:35.

as I say, it is a slightly tricky wicket. But at the same time many

:21:35.:21:39.

people in Britain would feel that MPs should be able to speak to all

:21:39.:21:45.

sorts of groups without necessarily endorsing their views. In a

:21:45.:21:49.

statement Traditional Britain group says it has no links with far right

:21:49.:21:59.
:21:59.:22:08.

Conservative sources say the group is not affiliated to the party and

:22:08.:22:12.

they won't be taking any action against Jacob Rees-Mogg, that it is

:22:12.:22:18.

up to him to justify who he goes to dinner with.

:22:18.:22:22.

We will be speaking to Jacob Rees- Mogg in a moment. But first we're

:22:22.:22:28.

joined by the Vice President of the Traditional Britain group.

:22:28.:22:33.

First of all, are you dismayed that Jacob Rees-Mogg has seen fit to

:22:33.:22:36.

distance himself from you and he says he's shocked by some of the

:22:36.:22:43.

things that your group espouses? don't think that our group espouses

:22:43.:22:48.

anything that millions of other people in this country espouse. We

:22:48.:22:55.

believe in a traditional Britain. Our aims are incaps lated in our

:22:55.:23:00.

title. I'm very sorry if Jacob Rees-Mogg has been embarrassed by

:23:00.:23:05.

dinner, incaps lated by in our title. I'm sorry if Jacob Rees-Mogg

:23:05.:23:10.

was embarrassed by the dinner, he didn't have to come and see us.

:23:10.:23:15.

Couldn't he have been embarrassed by the Facebook page about Doreen

:23:15.:23:21.

Lawrence, and saying that you abhorred her peerage and she should

:23:21.:23:25.

go home to her natural homeland with others? Do you believe that?

:23:25.:23:29.

think she is totally without merit and it is a further debasement for

:23:29.:23:38.

the House of Lords. This is going on for some time. About people

:23:38.:23:43.

going home, I can only refer you to the Conservatives 1970 general

:23:43.:23:48.

election manifesto when they said they would halt immigration and

:23:48.:23:50.

encourage voluntary repatriation, we are in favour of that.

:23:50.:23:55.

You are in favour of voluntary repatriation and you agree with the

:23:55.:24:00.

Facebook comment posted on our website? I agree that voluntary

:24:00.:24:03.

repatriation should be encouraged and assisted by Her Majesty's

:24:03.:24:06.

Government, yes. Do you think that there should be a halt to

:24:06.:24:11.

immigration? Yes, I think there should be a halt to immigration.

:24:11.:24:15.

That has been promised by quite a number of administrations over the

:24:15.:24:20.

last 40 years, all of whom have failed to do it. We are sitting

:24:20.:24:23.

next to Jacob Rees-Mogg, we have the photograph here, you were

:24:23.:24:27.

sitting next to him at the diner, did you communicate your views on

:24:27.:24:31.

immigration to him during the dinner? No, because he was there as

:24:31.:24:37.

our guest to address us, not for me to address him. Did he seem

:24:37.:24:41.

embarrassed at the time by the tenor of the conversation? I think

:24:41.:24:46.

he was embarrassed that the communists at Search Light who you

:24:46.:24:51.

have already had on interviewing had been on to him saying that...So

:24:51.:24:55.

He mentioned it to you? Yes, he said that they had said we were

:24:55.:25:00.

very nasty people and so on, which is just comical, frankly. Can I

:25:01.:25:07.

just ask are you a former member of the BNP? I certainly amnot.When

:25:07.:25:10.

you were with Jacob Rees-Mogg did you seek to reassure him about any

:25:10.:25:14.

of your views on immigration, or were they obvious for him to read?

:25:14.:25:18.

We didn't have him there to discuss immigration. We had him there to

:25:18.:25:22.

hear what he had to say about a traditional Britain. We believe

:25:22.:25:27.

that he is a good Tory and a good traditionalist and we wanted to

:25:27.:25:30.

hear about his views on a traditional Britain. Thank you very

:25:30.:25:36.

much indeed. We can speak to Jacob Rees-Mogg who joins us from our

:25:36.:25:43.

Bristol studio. Having had the warning of the views of this group,

:25:43.:25:49.

you, Jacob Rees-Mogg, chose to go to the dinner? I clearly made a

:25:49.:25:52.

mistake. The postings we have recently seen are so deep low

:25:52.:25:55.

disgraceful and shocking that they have -- deeply disgraceful and

:25:55.:25:59.

shocking they have no place in British debate. Mrs Lawrence is a

:25:59.:26:03.

wonderful and courageous woman who has contributed to British life.

:26:03.:26:06.

Any traditional view of Conservatism, she should be

:26:06.:26:11.

applauded for what she has done. You have heard it was a travesty of

:26:11.:26:16.

the peerage system to give it to her and she was undeserving?

:26:16.:26:19.

think he's not only wrong but he fails to recognise the campaign she

:26:20.:26:24.

has run over an extraordinarily long time to expose impriorityity

:26:24.:26:34.
:26:34.:26:34.

in the pept. The Metropolitan Police. When you were called and

:26:34.:26:38.

warned and it was only 24 hours time to go, you went on to the

:26:38.:26:44.

website and saw their aims did you? I made modest inquiries and my

:26:44.:26:47.

assistant asked Central Office if they knew the group and had any

:26:47.:26:51.

concerns. Clearly didn't do enough work to look into what they believe.

:26:51.:26:54.

Did you expect Conservative Central Office to have more information.

:26:54.:26:58.

Did he they give you any information? I'm not blaming

:26:58.:27:01.

Central Office, it was my fault, you accepted the invitation, I

:27:01.:27:06.

turned up to speak. It is my fault entirely that I spoke it a group

:27:06.:27:12.

that has subsequently posted these really unpleasant views. When the

:27:12.:27:15.

party talks about immigration, do you agree with him that there

:27:15.:27:20.

should be no more imglaigs? No. I believe that im--

:27:20.:27:23.

Immigration? No, I believe immigration should be controlled

:27:23.:27:26.

and I believe in the policy the Government has that we should

:27:26.:27:30.

manage our borders effectively. I support a reasonable amount of

:27:30.:27:33.

immigration which is very valuable to the country and has been over

:27:33.:27:37.

the whole history of England. you hear those views does that

:27:37.:27:41.

sound like the views of a racist then? I'm not going to make

:27:41.:27:46.

accusations of that kind. That will be for people listening to this

:27:46.:27:50.

programme whether they think that or not. Is there an issue, Jacob

:27:50.:27:54.

Rees-Mogg, you have already said that you regret. I assume you

:27:54.:27:57.

regret attending the dinner. But that actually there is a situation

:27:57.:28:00.

where MPs have to be so incredibly careful now that there may be views,

:28:00.:28:04.

he says, he says the views are shared with millions of people in

:28:04.:28:09.

the country, you can't even have a discussion about these views?

:28:09.:28:11.

think there is a difference addressing a dinner and having a

:28:11.:28:17.

discussion, what I regret is that I addressed a dinner and to any

:28:17.:28:20.

degree gave an appearence for approval of what they have been

:28:20.:28:23.

saying, that would not be my intention. It is important to

:28:23.:28:26.

discuss political views and show where they are false and wrong,

:28:26.:28:32.

which is why I do accept dozens of invitations to speak to try to put

:28:32.:28:35.

what I call a true Conservative view, not the really awful one that

:28:35.:28:40.

we have had from the website of the traditional Britain group. This

:28:40.:28:44.

happened back in me, presumably your memory until this rude

:28:44.:28:48.

awakening was of a good night, was it? There was no queasyness on the

:28:48.:28:58.
:28:58.:28:58.

night, or after the dinner. dinner was a perfectly polite

:28:58.:29:02.

affair. So another invitation to what seems like a normal, ordinary

:29:02.:29:05.

Conservative organisation, you would go, or do you think you would

:29:05.:29:12.

have to make further inquiries? burnt fool's bandaged finger goes

:29:12.:29:15.

wobbling back to the fire. Mine won't be going back to any fires, I

:29:15.:29:22.

will make much more careful investigations in future. Thank you.

:29:22.:29:26.

The Syrian President has used Ramadan to put himself about for

:29:26.:29:30.

the TV cameras, claiming the upper hand against the rebels and the

:29:30.:29:34.

retaking of Homs. He has apparently made his third public appearence in

:29:34.:29:39.

little more than a week. This time attending prayers at a mosque in

:29:39.:29:47.

Damascus. But the rebel militant leader, Clement Attlee claims to

:29:47.:29:57.
:29:57.:29:58.

have fired -- the all-laem brigade claimed to have fired mortars on

:29:58.:30:07.

his car. Is the Assad regime keeping the momentum up of the

:30:07.:30:10.

earlier summer? It is right in the earlier summer they appeared to

:30:10.:30:13.

have a head of steam behind them. But things have definitely not been

:30:13.:30:18.

going their way in the past week. The pendulum of war, if you like

:30:18.:30:22.

has swung. In several places Aleppo, north of there, there is an airbase,

:30:22.:30:29.

which they have lost, then there is the area around latd tackia on the

:30:29.:30:35.

coast, it -- Latakia on the coast, it has avoided the worst of the

:30:35.:30:39.

fighting but also the northest ooft capital itself. There have been

:30:39.:30:48.

interesting developments. If we start with Aleppo, amnesty released

:30:48.:30:52.

pictures of the impact of a year and shown before and after shots of

:30:52.:30:56.

a city block. And then you can see what happens when a balance alsoic

:30:56.:31:00.

missile, this was one fired -- ballistic missile, this was one

:31:00.:31:04.

fired six month ago and it flattens pretty much all the area in that

:31:04.:31:12.

part of the city. Very damage heavy in that part of the city.

:31:12.:31:17.

What happened there? There is an affair, most of the distance

:31:17.:31:22.

between the Turkish frontier and that, we can see a satellite image

:31:22.:31:26.

showing the layout of the runways. This is an outpost of the Assad

:31:26.:31:32.

regime control for the past few months, besieged, it had a real of

:31:33.:31:36.

supply base for resupplying Government village, pro-Government

:31:36.:31:39.

villages I should say, by helicopter. For month the

:31:39.:31:42.

opposition have tried to take it, in the last few days they attacked

:31:42.:31:47.

with suicide bombs and used anti- tank missiles to destroy the tanks

:31:47.:31:51.

that were guarding the place and then stormed the base. Footage has

:31:51.:31:56.

now emerged of them surveying their spoils, damaged and destroyed and

:31:56.:32:01.

indeed intact helicopters that can now no longer be used to help those

:32:01.:32:04.

pro-Assad villages around there. I think the real significance though

:32:04.:32:14.

of this is the role of militant Islamist groups, Jihadist groups. A

:32:14.:32:17.

still image has emerged of the fighters, the man with the red

:32:17.:32:20.

beard is said to be a Chechen commander, who led the operation.

:32:20.:32:25.

Andrews him you see people from Afghanistan, Pakistan, apparently

:32:25.:32:29.

Afghans and other foreign militant. This is being chalked up as a

:32:29.:32:32.

victory for the militants. Where else has the regime been in

:32:32.:32:37.

trouble? Another really interesting area is around Latakia.

:32:37.:32:43.

Mediterranean port, the mill country behind it is home to the

:32:43.:32:48.

Alawites, and his home town is near the President the tribe he comes

:32:48.:32:51.

from. A selection of opposition groups pushed down from the north,

:32:51.:32:55.

and during the weekend attacked a chain of villages to the north of

:32:55.:32:57.

the President's home town and succeeded in taking lots of

:32:57.:33:03.

position. They started off with anti-tank missiles, a similar

:33:03.:33:09.

methodology to one we saw at the airbase, taking out armoured

:33:09.:33:15.

vehicles, little small hilltop the forts you can see. They followed up

:33:15.:33:18.

with armour taken from them. All this sort of stack of weapons,

:33:18.:33:22.

another haul for the opposition, the kind of thing you expect. Once

:33:22.:33:30.

the hilltop forts are taken the villagers flee, and thousands of

:33:30.:33:37.

Alawites have fled and the artillery is in site of the home

:33:37.:33:42.

town of Mr Assad. The military still have the edge? They have the

:33:42.:33:44.

air force, ballistic weapons and chemical weapons and surveillance

:33:45.:33:49.

systems that the opposition can only dream of. But the disparity is

:33:49.:33:53.

being quickly eroded. All sorts of heavy weapons are now in the hand

:33:53.:33:56.

of the opposition. While the Americans debate to send small arms

:33:56.:34:03.

and a bit bigger, look at some of the pictures out this week. This is

:34:03.:34:08.

a colony of tanks, at the head of it the latest models of the Russian

:34:08.:34:11.

battle tank. The flag flying not of the Syrian National Coalition, it

:34:11.:34:16.

is a black flag of one of the militant Islamist groups, dozens of

:34:16.:34:21.

armoured vehicles have fallen in their hands very near Damascus.

:34:21.:34:25.

Some fascinating imagery that came out this week, a bunker, full of

:34:25.:34:30.

the kind of anti-tank missiles that we have seen in attacking those

:34:30.:34:38.

earlier places. Dozens and dozens of them taken by the opposition. Of

:34:38.:34:42.

course if you like the leaking bucket of the Assad regime means

:34:42.:34:45.

the Russians aren't just supplying him they are supplying the

:34:45.:34:49.

opposition, and as we have seen in the earlier footage that kind of

:34:49.:34:53.

weaponry can be used to real affect to try to equalise the balance at

:34:53.:34:59.

local level. According to the UN, access to the

:34:59.:35:02.

Internet is so fundamental to the way we live our lives that it

:35:02.:35:06.

should be regarded as a basic human right. Try telling that to the

:35:06.:35:10.

people who live in remote parts of Britain, increasingly frustrated as

:35:10.:35:14.

the rest of us enjoy faster and faster connections. In fact it is

:35:14.:35:22.

the latest speed tests, Ofcom has found that the gap between download

:35:22.:35:26.

speed between urban and rural areas has widened. The Government is

:35:26.:35:30.

spending millions of pounds of tax- payers' money to improve access and

:35:30.:35:35.

harder to reach parts. Is it the right technology and are we getting

:35:35.:35:45.
:35:45.:35:48.

the value for unm? -- money.

:35:48.:35:53.

Today it is not just being connected, but being connected fast

:35:53.:35:59.

that decides if families stay in touch.

:35:59.:36:06.

Businesses succeed or fail. Nations grow or stagnate.

:36:06.:36:10.

But not everyone these days lives and works where it is easy to get

:36:10.:36:14.

on-line. Sometimes we all find ourselves

:36:14.:36:21.

somewhere a bit off the beaten track. The trouble is that getting

:36:21.:36:24.

internet access in remote rural places like this is not easy. The

:36:24.:36:29.

Government says it wants the vast majority of the UK to get super-

:36:29.:36:33.

fast broadband within a few years. But when it comes to remote, rural

:36:33.:36:37.

areas like this, commercial needs can often clash with public needs.

:36:37.:36:41.

It is not easy to make money from bringing the Internet to a place

:36:41.:36:45.

like this. The Government says it is trying to sort that out, but it

:36:45.:36:50.

is facing criticism, it is not doing a good enough job.

:36:50.:36:53.

Both Labour and the coalition have recognised that connecting some

:36:53.:36:57.

parts of the UK is commercially unattractive. So just over a

:36:57.:37:01.

billion pounds worth of public money is available to help. It is

:37:01.:37:07.

how that money is being spent and how fast that's causing concerns.

:37:08.:37:13.

Peter Cochrane used to work for British Telecom, where his job was

:37:13.:37:19.

to predict how technology might change our lives. He lives in

:37:19.:37:25.

Suffolk, he is mightly frustrated by broadband, and couldn't persuade

:37:25.:37:30.

his old employer to help. This village is surrounded by optic

:37:30.:37:35.

fibre owned by the railway and British Telecom. I can't get any of

:37:35.:37:40.

them to let me have access. I can't get any of them to put a fibre into

:37:40.:37:45.

the village. I have even offered to dig the trench of 300ms into the

:37:45.:37:52.

village myself with the help of the local farmers. Nobody wants to play.

:37:52.:37:55.

He and his neighbours have put in their own fast broadband system

:37:55.:38:02.

instead, with the help of a small entrepenural provider using a Wi-Fi

:38:02.:38:12.

fis them, made possible by a collaboration with the local --

:38:12.:38:16.

local church. They send a signal to that antenna over there and it is

:38:16.:38:19.

bounced over to this tower, and just below where you and I are

:38:19.:38:23.

standing right now is the Belfry. And behind the Belfry shutters we

:38:23.:38:29.

have a series of antennas like this, and they illuminate the village so

:38:30.:38:36.

everybody can get access to 32 megabits both ways. The village

:38:36.:38:39.

includes designers and consultants working from home, small businesses

:38:39.:38:42.

providing employment, and these days the more traditional rural

:38:42.:38:52.
:38:52.:38:58.

business of farming is one of the most IT-intensive.

:38:58.:39:02.

This farm needs internet access to keep track of supplies and in touch

:39:02.:39:09.

with supermarket customers. He's not on the village church Wi-Fi

:39:09.:39:14.

broadband yet, but plans to switch. This morning I went into the office

:39:14.:39:20.

at 5.30 and no internet. So we feel as if we have lost a leg today. We

:39:20.:39:23.

are harvesting potatoes, within half an hour of our load going into

:39:23.:39:27.

the factory, when they have done the quality control, we instantly

:39:27.:39:32.

get a readout. If we have a problem we can go to the field and change

:39:32.:39:36.

it immediately, without having hundreds of tonnes on wheels, which

:39:36.:39:43.

might all get rejected. BT told us that Ufford is now on the rollout

:39:43.:39:48.

for rural broadband as one of the hard to reach areas, and should get

:39:48.:39:52.

fibre before 2015, possibly sooner. Nationally the picture is less

:39:52.:39:58.

positive. Last month the National Audit

:39:58.:40:06.

Office found that only nine of 44 rural broadband projects will reach

:40:06.:40:12.

their target that 99% get super- fast coverage by May this year. In

:40:12.:40:17.

June the Government shifted the target, now 95% of all UK premises

:40:17.:40:24.

will be covered, not until 2017, two years later than scheduled.

:40:24.:40:29.

But it is not just how how long it is taking to get broadband in place

:40:29.:40:33.

that is the problem, but what some see as a lack of overall ambition

:40:33.:40:43.
:40:43.:40:43.

from the Government. The definition of superfast fast is slow compared

:40:43.:40:47.

to others. I would argue we are not in a battle for survival against

:40:47.:40:51.

Europe, but against the rest of the planet. If I go to Hong Kong I get

:40:51.:41:01.

a big ga bit both ways to my hotel group. That is super-fast. People

:41:01.:41:09.

in the UK talk about 18-20 gigabits being superfast, and an awful lot

:41:09.:41:15.

of the time you get the magic words "up to". BT is pushing ahead with

:41:15.:41:20.

upgrading the backbone of its entire network with fibre, on top

:41:20.:41:25.

of existing copper connections, including a rural area like this

:41:25.:41:32.

near the Norfolk broords. We met a man in charge of broadband rollout

:41:32.:41:36.

at BT, Bill Murphy. We ask if his plan is ambitious enough? I think

:41:36.:41:43.

we are aiming high, Speeds have increased threefold in the last few

:41:43.:41:47.

years. We are second behind Japan in the G8 now. We believe the

:41:47.:41:51.

technology is good for today and will be upgradable in the furdure.

:41:51.:41:55.

We're delivering uploads speeds at 20-times faster than the old

:41:55.:42:01.

generation of technology, for the vast majority of consumers and fall

:42:01.:42:08.

businesses it will fit the bill. There could be another problem. The

:42:08.:42:12.

way we use computers is changing, more and more we are not storing

:42:12.:42:15.

data and software on our own computers but powerful remote

:42:15.:42:20.

servers in the cloud. That means we need to send and receive upload and

:42:21.:42:25.

download huge amounts of information. To do that we need

:42:25.:42:30.

broadband connections that are fast in both directions. The trouble is,

:42:30.:42:33.

that's not necessarily the system that's being rolled out.

:42:33.:42:37.

I don't think our politicians, I don't think our leaders actually

:42:37.:42:40.

understand what broadband means, because they don't actually use it.

:42:40.:42:47.

They think about downloading music, that is not the game. It is about

:42:47.:42:49.

the collaboration of machines and people and people with machines and

:42:50.:42:54.

to do that you need lots of bandwidth in both directions. So

:42:54.:43:00.

straight away we need bidirectional broadband, we have invested

:43:00.:43:04.

fundamentally in the wrong technology. We asked Ed Vaizey, the

:43:04.:43:08.

minister responsible for broadband if that's right? I'm not going to

:43:08.:43:14.

try and have an argument with the former chief technology officer of

:43:14.:43:19.

BT. But it is like an economist you talk to any number of them and they

:43:19.:43:22.

will still tell you there is a different way of doing it. It

:43:22.:43:26.

shouldn't be the Government who tell you what it is, if we put it

:43:26.:43:30.

on the table and we invited bids and we said emphatically that we

:43:30.:43:36.

would be technology-neutral. Malcolm Corbett represents some of

:43:36.:43:42.

BT's rivals, he works from home in not so rural Woolich in south lound

:43:42.:43:50.

done. One company is laying the gigabyte cable next to these flats.

:43:50.:43:56.

He says this should be happening more in the countryside. Some of

:43:56.:44:01.

the small working say they do their best to drum up business, and BT is

:44:01.:44:05.

using public money to cover the same territory. There is only a

:44:05.:44:10.

limited amount of tax-payers' money. If you have private sector funding

:44:10.:44:13.

or community fund anything the communities, why not spend the

:44:13.:44:17.

state funding elsewhere, why in the same place, it makes no sense.

:44:17.:44:23.

way contracts for the natural rural programme were set up from the

:44:23.:44:28.

outset meant many BT rivals felt they couldn't compete. He's

:44:28.:44:30.

concerned that County Councils spending the money don't always

:44:30.:44:32.

have all the information they need up front to make sure they are

:44:32.:44:39.

getting value for money. They have a composition of one

:44:39.:44:42.

which isn't a competition of one. In many cases they are not feeling

:44:42.:44:46.

they are getting the best value for money, but they can't do a lot

:44:46.:44:56.
:44:56.:45:24.

The NAO said the Government plan is BT says it is not about unnecessary

:45:24.:45:28.

duplication, but about providing the most reliable services.

:45:28.:45:31.

Networks aren't for Christmas, you know, great enthusiasm, passion, I

:45:32.:45:36.

love it, but if at the end of the day anything can be built, can it

:45:36.:45:41.

be run or continually invested in. Can it offer a choice of supply.

:45:41.:45:48.

the Bond family farm, in Blowfield Norfolk, they grow herbs and other

:45:48.:45:54.

fresh produce, if they misan e-mail they can lose -- miss an e-mail

:45:54.:45:59.

they can lose orders. They turned to a small Wi-Fi broadband set up

:45:59.:46:05.

built around the local church. We were struckling to get to 0.5

:46:05.:46:11.

megabits of a second, that was useless. We went to Wire Spy who do

:46:11.:46:16.

a wireless connection, we are getting a usable and effective, not

:46:16.:46:20.

superfast but it is usable. People in the Westminster bubble, as it is

:46:20.:46:24.

called, don't appreciate what it is like to live in more rural areas

:46:24.:46:28.

and don't appreciate the lack of broadband and transport and

:46:28.:46:35.

everything else we struggle without here.

:46:35.:46:40.

Of course people in rural areas are utterly frustrated, the rise of

:46:40.:46:44.

broadband in the last ten years has been phenomenal in terms of

:46:44.:46:48.

people's need. That is why we put the programme in place. You can't

:46:48.:46:55.

wave a magic wound and it all sorts itself out, but we do have

:46:55.:47:00.

contracts signed and we are getting under way. In the end it is public

:47:00.:47:04.

money being spent to wire up rural communities, the Government will

:47:04.:47:07.

want to be certain this is used to provide as many people as possible

:47:08.:47:11.

with the best system it, as it strives to keep people in remote

:47:11.:47:15.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

President Obama warns that Russia is in a cold-war mentality as he cancels talks.

And are we risking the country's future by investing in the wrong internet technology?


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