07/08/2013 Newsnight


07/08/2013

With Victoria Derbyshire. How badly are the courts failing young people who claim abuse? Plus low interest rates, Holland v the UK on cycling and the peril of the political party.


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Can a 13-year-old victim of sexual abuse, who looked older than her

:00:14.:00:18.

age be predatory and able to egg on her abuser, according to a

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barrister and judge involved in that case, yes. Tonight the

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testimony of another girl accused of lying as she gave evidence about

:00:26.:00:30.

her alleged abuser. I understand that they have to test

:00:30.:00:34.

it and that they have to prove that they are telling the truth, but I

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think outrightly calling someone a liar isn't proving anything.

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So will plans for an elite panel of judges to preside over such

:00:44.:00:46.

hearings protect young and vulnerable witnesses. Labour and

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the Bar Council are here. Also tonight, after the rock star

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build up, the new Bank of England governor gets down to work

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promising potentially another three years of low interest rates.

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It's bad news if you are a saver, good news if you are a home buyer,

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very good news if you are a Chancellor. Our Olympic cyclists

:01:09.:01:14.

are the envy of the world, but for the casual cyclist our roads are

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anything but. In Holland things look very different, why?

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Everybody's on big sit up and beg bikes, they are weaving around,

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there is a much more relaxed feel to the way the cyclists occupy the

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streets. We need to get that culture doing. And... # The party's

:01:35.:01:39.

over The Prime Minister won't tell us

:01:39.:01:43.

how many members his party has. It is as if he knows the figures

:01:43.:01:53.
:01:53.:01:55.

aren't pretty. Is the party over for the political parties? Le

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Good evening. Retch Dale, Rotherham, Oxford, where gangs of paedophiles

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targeted young girls. Abusers were jailed, but not before the victims

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were subjected to aggressive cross- examination by multiple barristers.

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The Lord Chief Justice says he now wants to protect vulnerable

:02:13.:02:17.

witnesses in the future. Meanwhile the Crown Prosecution Service today

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criticised one of its own barristers for decribing a 13-year-

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old victim of a sex attack as "predatory" and "sexually

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experienced". The judge hearing the case echoed those comments. All

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this means the system will change. Will it alter some people's mind

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set. I have been talking to a 12- year-old girl who while giving

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evidence about her alleged abuser was accused of lying. The judge

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halted the trial when she became stressed and the case collapsed. We

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are calling her Kate, it's not her real name. She wanted to talk to us

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and her mother agreed. I started by asking her how she felt about the

:02:56.:03:01.

prospect of giving evidence, her words are spoken for her. It was

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really nerve racking and scary, but it wasn't, I didn't think it would

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be too bad. Why were you nervous? Because I didn't know what to

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expect. Had someone talked you through what might happen during

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the course of the trial? I had been told what was going to happen. And

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what was supposed to happen in quite a lot of detail. But I didn't

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know, I didn't know what to expect still. Because I didn't know if

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they were telling the truth. I didn't know if it was all the same

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as what they had said. And whereof it that you gave evidence from?

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where was it that you gave evidence from? I did a video in a house, I

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don't know where it was, I can't remember. Then I did it from a

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separate room in the court, but I was videolinked to the court.

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there anyone in the room with you? Yeah, there was two ladies in the

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room with me. That were with me whilst I was giving the evidence.

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And had you been able to get to know them? I had met one of them

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before when we went to the Crown Court room, other one I hadn't met

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before. Why was it that you weren't able to have your mum with you, for

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example, in that room? Because she was a witness. How did you feel

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about the two ladies with you? were really kind and supportive.

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When I get upset they kind of let me go out the room and they took a

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break. They were very kind and chatty. What do you remember about

:04:36.:04:40.

what the defence barrister said to you? She asked personal questions

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like "why -- why did I have to have a bath every day and the house have

:04:47.:04:52.

to be cleaned every day and personal questions about the way I

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lived. Did you understand why she was asking those kinds of

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questions? No, because it wasn't really related at all to any of

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them. Did you feel you could say that to her? Not really, no.What

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else did she say to you? She called me a liar a lot of the time. She

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said I was lying and trying to stick up for my mum. Because, I

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can't remember why she said it, she said I was clearly only trying to

:05:22.:05:28.

stick up for my mum. How many times did she call you a liar? I don't

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know, several, a few. What did you think of that? It really upset me

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because I wasn't lying. To be called a liar when you're not is

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really upsetting. What happened after she had said that? I got

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upset and went out of the room. And then the judge came and told me

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that I didn't have to carry on. And then they came down. I went

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downstairs to see my mum and then about 15 minutes later they told me

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what had happened. And why I wasn't giving any more evidence. And how

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did that affect the case? Obviously it didn't carry on, so the case.

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The judge halted the case did he? Yeah. Why?Because the way that I

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was being treated by the defence barrister. So because you became so

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upset he decided the case should stop? Yeah.Even though it meant

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other witnesses couldn't then give their evidence because you were the

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first witness weren't you? Yeah. The other witnesses got upset

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because they couldn't give their evidence in court. They wanted to,

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did they? Yeah, they had been told that once they had said what they

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had to say it would be over and they could carry on with their

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lives. And so they got upset because they couldn't tell their

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story and tell their, give their evidence. Do you understand Kate

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that sometimes barristers have to challenge and test somebody's

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evidence because some people do tell lies? I understand that they

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have to test it, and that they have to prove that they are telling the

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truth but I think outrightly calling someone a liar isn't

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proving anything. In future there are going to be special judges who

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hear the kind of cases that you were involved in who may be able to

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protect vulnerable witnesses like you were. What do you think of that

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idea? I think it is a better idea because they would know how to

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treat the children and they would know how the children are feeling

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better than the other judges that are used. And do you think it might

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help people like you describe what happened to you? I think it would

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help because they would know the sort of questions to ask instead of

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having to call somebody a liar to get the evidence. They would be

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able to ask the sort of questions that work to get the answers they

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need. I wonder how you think it might have helped you in your case

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had there been one of these particular judges with this extra

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training presiding over your case? Well it would have helped because

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the questions wouldn't necessarily have been easier to answer, but

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they wouldn't have been so upsetting in the way that they were.

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So it is a good idea as far as you can see? Yeah.Can I ask you about

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some comments the judges said about a 13-year-old sexual abuse victim,

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he described her as "predatory" and "egging on her abuser". How do you

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think a judge saying that to a 13- year-old girl might make her feel?

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Well it is going to make her feel really insecure and well she

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wouldn't want to do anything at all. Because if someone said that you

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dressed inappropriately you wouldn't ever want to wear a dress

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again. Because you would feel really insecure about the way you

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looked. It would really affect you. I think. What would you say to that

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judge? Tell him to get his act straight, sort himself out because

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it is not fair on anybody. How do you think other young victims of

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sexual abuse might react on hearing that he had said those things?

:09:35.:09:43.

would be pretty shocked. I know I would. Because it's really damaging

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for someone to hear those sorts of things from someone so important.

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You gave evidence a number of years ago now, how are you now? I'm fine

:09:55.:10:01.

now, I have got through it really well. But there is obviously still

:10:01.:10:08.

things that still come up now. Even after two, three years. But I'm

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fine, I feel fine. Kate, thank you very much for

:10:12.:10:19.

talking to me. Thank you for having With me now Maura McGowan QC chair

:10:19.:10:23.

of the Bar Council in England and Wales that represents barristers

:10:23.:10:26.

and Sadiq Khan, the Shadow Justice Secretary who was a human rights

:10:26.:10:29.

solicitor before entering parliament. Welcome both of you.

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First of all, how do you react to the way Kate was treated? She's a

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very impressive young woman. She summed up two of the most important

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issues actually she understands that evidence in the sort of case

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she was involved in has to be tested, but Sheehy quillly

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understands that calling somebody a liar over and over again is no way

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of cross-examining anybody. You don't establish anything by doing

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that. Is there a way of challenging the evidence without using the word

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"liar" or decribing someone as that? Yes, depending on the age and

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understanding of the young women or young person. There is different

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ways of doing it, but shouting at somebody or repeatedly call them a

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Loire isn't a way of achieving anything. Why does it happen then?

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I suspect quite often because people haven't got as much training

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or experience as they should have when they do these very delicate

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and sensitive cases. It is worth noting that I think about 30% of

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all trials in England at the moment are allegations of sexual impro-

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priority. Not all with children, mostly with adults, that is the

:11:36.:11:46.
:11:46.:11:51.

volume of cases going through. Kate's reaction to the prosecuting

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barrister decribing another victim as "predatory" and "sexually

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experienced" might that stop other young victims speaking out?

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Absolutely, if you speak to victims' group as I do, there is

:12:04.:12:09.

already huge concern about the way victims and witnesses are treated.

:12:09.:12:12.

This case this week and Kate's case is not the only two I have heard

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about. It is the culture that needs changing, lawyers today, judges

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today and the CPS are better trained than ever before. The

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practice is very different, glad ditoral and aggressive. Victims if

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they lose confidence in the criminal justice system they will

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stop coming forward and taking part in trials. And witnesses will think

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what is the point, and that is bad news for us, offenders will

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continue to repeat owe fences because they are not being brought

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to book. Can we talk about culture, Maura McGowan, is there a

:12:50.:12:52.

generational prejudice towards victims of child abuse? I don't

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think there is. How do you explain the comment of the judge and

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prosecuting barrister? Given the reaction we have seen today and

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yesterday which is massive, this is the first or second item on every

:13:05.:13:09.

news programme all day, that is an indication that this is not common

:13:09.:13:14.

place, this does not happen every trial. How many other ignorant of

:13:14.:13:17.

the legal profession are there who think a victim bears some

:13:17.:13:22.

responsibility for the abuse? was said should not have been said.

:13:22.:13:26.

Just those two? No, no. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at

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all, there are cases that need to be done better, I accept that. But

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equally it is clear isn't it that the vast majority of cases are done

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properly. Can I just say, I'm sure that's right, but you just have to

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remember what Milly Douler's father said when he was cross-examined by

:13:48.:13:50.

Levi Bellfield's barrister at the trial, he felt it was almost as bad

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as the day and weeks after his daughter had died. You remember

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Francis Andredie the professional violinists, who according to her

:14:01.:14:05.

husband killed herself because of the way she was treated. Judges

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have to step in and protect witnesses. Defence barristers must

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fearlessly defend their clients, but there is a way of doing so

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without intimidating and putting off future victims. Of course

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judges can step in, but they don't, despite the training, the

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comprehensive training they receive for these particular cases? Many

:14:25.:14:29.

are ex-barristers except for a few exceptions. There is this macho

:14:29.:14:32.

culture whereby you some how impress the gallery by being tough.

:14:32.:14:36.

We have to look at the way we train and recruit judges, it last to

:14:36.:14:42.

change. It has to be a mainstream issue not just where 13-year-old

:14:42.:14:48.

children are involved. You smiled when he said "macho culture?

:14:48.:14:52.

don't accept that, the vast majority of barristers who do these

:14:52.:14:56.

cases are women. People tend to instruct women to do these case,

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there isn't a macho culture, judges are sensitive and conscious of what

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the public gallery thinks of them? This extra training these elite

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judges will get, suggests there is something missing from the

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"comprehensive training" that they already get? The panel of elite

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judges being set up now will be trained specially to deal with the

:15:17.:15:21.

complex sexual abuse cases so, the grooming cases, where you have

:15:21.:15:26.

seven, eight defendants, you have any number of witnesses and victims,

:15:26.:15:30.

these cases require special management skills and that's the

:15:30.:15:33.

panel that is going to be set up to deal with those sorts of complex

:15:33.:15:38.

cases. The judges are already trained to deal with sexual

:15:38.:15:42.

offences, it is not perfect, I don't pretend it is, but it is

:15:42.:15:45.

infinitely better than it used to be and it is getting better all the

:15:45.:15:49.

time. I accept the last point except I say the panel of judges

:15:49.:15:54.

won't have dealt with this week's case or the vineist cases or the

:15:54.:16:01.

murder of Milly Douler, unless you change the culture in all the

:16:01.:16:04.

courts why should witnesses bother to report a crime or as a witness

:16:04.:16:07.

come forward and give evidence if this is how they will be treated.

:16:08.:16:12.

The new judges, the elite judges, the panel, are they going to be

:16:12.:16:21.

able to step in and stop the cross- examination a number of times

:16:21.:16:25.

because there are a number of defendants represented by multiple

:16:25.:16:28.

barristers? The plan is, and the Government is looking at

:16:28.:16:31.

introducing a section on the books for a long time, where cross-

:16:31.:16:35.

examination is done in advance of the trial, it is not done in a

:16:35.:16:39.

courtroom. The witnesses or victims don't see the defendants. That's

:16:39.:16:44.

being done as a pilot in three areas at the moment. But the panel

:16:44.:16:48.

of judges that have been chosen and set up are going to have very

:16:48.:16:52.

different powers. They will always have ground rules hearings in these

:16:52.:16:55.

cases, they will say at the start right there are six of you, there

:16:55.:16:59.

aren't going to be six cross- examinations, or if there are they

:16:59.:17:04.

will only be of a certain length, you will deal with one topic you

:17:04.:17:08.

with another. They won't step in during the trial, I hope, because

:17:08.:17:11.

the rules will have been laid down in advance. Thank you very much

:17:12.:17:16.

both of you. After months of hype, more

:17:16.:17:20.

befitting the release of a Hollywood blockbuster, the new

:17:20.:17:23.

Governor of the Bank of England, Patrick Karnezis, made his first

:17:23.:17:29.

public pronouncements today in the more prosaic -- Patrick Karnezis

:17:29.:17:38.

made his first public pronouncements to the prosaic

:17:38.:17:43.

gallery. What has he to say? inflation goes too high the Bank of

:17:43.:17:47.

England has to put up trrds to bring it back to target -- interest

:17:48.:17:57.

rates to bring it back to target. They have said they will not put

:17:58.:18:06.

interest rates up from Boca bottom until inflation falls below 7%,

:18:06.:18:10.

because they don't think unemployment will do that for three

:18:10.:18:14.

years, those who borrow can be fairly sure that interest rates,

:18:14.:18:21.

base rates are going to stay as they are for at least two years.

:18:21.:18:25.

The aim is we go out and borrow and the housing market ticks up a bit.

:18:25.:18:32.

How cast iron is that guarantee from Mr Carney? It is not, he has

:18:32.:18:36.

three caveats, one is if inflation looks in the medium term like it

:18:36.:18:41.

will be 2.5%, another one if there are rising expectations of

:18:41.:18:45.

inflation, so wages outstripping inflation, you get this leapfrog

:18:45.:18:50.

effect. Also if another part of the Bank of England sees a bubble

:18:50.:18:54.

occuring as a result of this housing boom that we all expect to

:18:54.:19:01.

take place. Now first thing has to be said about that is this 2.5%

:19:01.:19:04.

thing, it sounds well it could have been easily 2.5% inflation. The

:19:04.:19:08.

Bank of England have some great economists who all seem to draw

:19:08.:19:13.

graphs that end up nicely normal in the medium term. So look in the end,

:19:13.:19:17.

what he is basically doing is saying unless unemployment falls I

:19:17.:19:20.

will keep interest rates static, there are these caveats, he's

:19:20.:19:24.

saying to the markets and the markets in this case are us, home

:19:24.:19:29.

buyers or savers, you decide which bit you think I'm going to do and

:19:29.:19:33.

the end result of that will be that I think most people psychologically

:19:33.:19:38.

will hear the big promise, interest rates are static and not hear the

:19:38.:19:42.

caveats and the result will be greater confidence. But not for

:19:42.:19:47.

savers? For savers it is transparently not very good. I mean

:19:47.:19:50.

the mathematics are if you are putting your money into the bank,

:19:50.:19:54.

so saving it as cash, then inflation is eating it away, pause

:19:54.:20:00.

the interest rates, as any savers know are almost zero and inflation

:20:00.:20:07.

is above that. So he was trying to sell it to people on the long-term

:20:07.:20:10.

that savers want the economy to be all right. This is what he said.

:20:10.:20:14.

The best thing for savers is a strong economy, ultimately a strong

:20:14.:20:18.

economy will bring higher interest rates. You see that to some extent

:20:18.:20:23.

at longer interest rates moving up as the data proved entirely

:20:23.:20:31.

appropriate. The second thing is to recognise that, and when I talk to

:20:31.:20:34.

saver, savers care about their children and grandchildren, they

:20:34.:20:37.

care their employed, they care about neighbours and friends, this

:20:37.:20:39.

is ultimately about getting the whole of the economy moving forward

:20:39.:20:44.

in a way that rewards work, savings and that ensures the last thing

:20:44.:20:46.

that is obviously incredibly important for savers is that

:20:47.:20:52.

inflation comes back to that 2% target so they make real returns on

:20:52.:20:56.

their savings. What could be wrong with that, if you are a saver, of

:20:56.:20:59.

course, the short-term thing, the jam tomorrow is fine, but the

:20:59.:21:01.

short-term thing is you are losing money. One of the side-effects of

:21:01.:21:06.

what he has done today is to say explicitly to savers, if you want

:21:06.:21:10.

to live on your savings or get an income on it you have to move your

:21:10.:21:14.

money somewhere else, as the experts are clear about today.

:21:14.:21:21.

billion went into cash ISAs alone despite low interest rates,

:21:21.:21:25.

essentially that means while we all need cash for a rainy day, people

:21:25.:21:28.

holding cash in case they lose their job, but holding cash for

:21:28.:21:32.

long periods of time you are actually losing money in real terms.

:21:32.:21:38.

Ultimately what has to happen is people need to start flushing some

:21:38.:21:43.

money out of cash and put into riskier assets to keep them ahead

:21:43.:21:48.

of inflation. The big picture, what is Mark Carney trying to do?

:21:48.:21:54.

Bank of England governors Mervyn King before him, they are balancing

:21:54.:21:58.

a huge unprecedented austerity programme that takes money out of

:21:58.:22:01.

the economy with pumping money into the economy through quanative

:22:01.:22:06.

easing, through low interest rates and now through this called forward

:22:06.:22:16.
:22:16.:22:18.

guidance. They are also something else, He is doing something else,

:22:18.:22:24.

he is saying savers you will lose your money relative to inflation,

:22:24.:22:31.

in all those who borrowed can be relieved. Mr Mark Carney is doing

:22:31.:22:34.

his best to make that happen in the UK as it has happened all around

:22:34.:22:38.

the world. A year ago British cyclists were

:22:38.:22:41.

sweeping the board at the Olympic Velodrome and it definitely

:22:41.:22:46.

inspired more people to swap four wheels for two, yet British roads

:22:46.:22:49.

remain some of the most dangerous in Europe for cyclists. Just across

:22:49.:22:53.

the North Sea lies a cycling utopia, the Netherlands, our countries

:22:53.:22:56.

aren't that different, so what are the Dutch doing right and what are

:22:56.:23:04.

we doing wrong? We sent the BBC's Hague correspondent out on her

:23:04.:23:09.

Omafiets, the Netherland's popular grandma bike to seek an answer on a

:23:09.:23:19.
:23:19.:23:21.

200-mile journey from the Hague to London. It is history, it is a

:23:21.:23:31.
:23:31.:23:32.

legacy, it is knowledge. It is fast, cheap and healthy.

:23:32.:23:35.

really have a totally different culture, we have a long way to go

:23:35.:23:39.

before we have the same mentality about cycling. That is what I want

:23:39.:23:49.
:23:49.:23:50.

to achieve. A lot of cyclists are totally irresponsible. Her life was

:23:50.:23:53.

just starting as far as I was concerned, so many things were

:23:53.:24:00.

opening up and then she was dead. There's no doubt the Dutch have

:24:00.:24:04.

created some of the most coveted bike-safe streets in the world.

:24:04.:24:08.

More than half of all trips in cities like the Hague are made by

:24:08.:24:13.

bike, but the question is, would all of this work for somewhere like

:24:13.:24:19.

the UK? We are on a mission from the Dutch parliament to Westminster

:24:19.:24:29.
:24:29.:24:32.

to find out if Britain could and should be doing Dutch? Dutch

:24:32.:24:38.

society is geared around the bike, but the Netherlands hasn't always

:24:38.:24:42.

looked this way. Amsterdam is a paradise for cyclists mainly

:24:42.:24:48.

because there are no hills to climb. In the 1950s and 1960s cyclists

:24:48.:24:58.
:24:58.:24:59.

were squeezed to the kerb as car ownership rocket. The rise in oil

:24:59.:25:08.

prices in the 1970s shook the trust in cars. Then there was a campaign

:25:08.:25:12.

for safety after more than 400 children were killed on the roads.

:25:12.:25:17.

In this university city electronic counters outside the parking spaces

:25:17.:25:22.

at the train station register how many spaces are available. There is

:25:22.:25:26.

room for 10,000 bikes. Cyclists are accommodated here in exactly the

:25:26.:25:31.

same way as motorists are elsewhere. This is the city square, it used to

:25:32.:25:36.

be like any other town, full of parked cars. Today Dutch

:25:36.:25:42.

campaigners like Marc are actively trying to encourage the Brits to

:25:42.:25:47.

adopt the Dutch system. What is the translation of it, how can we sell

:25:47.:25:50.

it and design what the Dutch have in a way that can be incorporated

:25:50.:25:54.

in the British situation? There is a lot going on there. It is all in

:25:54.:25:59.

the transition. I hear many excuses or myths about what makes the Dutch

:25:59.:26:02.

supposedly so different or the Netherlands. There are more

:26:02.:26:07.

similarities than differences. It is not about the climate, it is the

:26:07.:26:10.

same. Flat it would be Amsterdams all over the world for that

:26:10.:26:13.

argument. It is not that, it is about making a choice and

:26:13.:26:21.

prioritising what you want. In the Netherlands cyclists are

:26:21.:26:26.

treated with extra care, dedicated traffic signals, crossings and

:26:26.:26:29.

parking spaces make for extremely smooth ride. One of the many

:26:29.:26:34.

reasons it is so popular is that the infrastructure is integrated

:26:34.:26:39.

and intuitive. You won't see much special gear or preparation here.

:26:39.:26:43.

The smaller you are the more protected you are. And that is

:26:43.:26:52.

written into the rules of the road. Now time for our great Newsnight

:26:52.:26:57.

cycle to commence. A chance to experience a bit of bike life on

:26:57.:27:07.
:27:07.:27:13.

the other side. The roads and cycle paths are wide enough for people to

:27:13.:27:23.

cycle along comfortably side-by- side. Newsnight's producer and

:27:23.:27:26.

acting Sherpa Hannah can catch up and help guide us along towards the

:27:26.:27:36.
:27:36.:27:42.

ferry. Tell me about the routes?

:27:42.:27:46.

Sunrise on deck and time to check twit for some last-minute advice on

:27:46.:27:54.

how to cycle UK-style. No sign of any cycle paths to guide us, and

:27:54.:27:59.

when they do appear an early indication there may be some

:27:59.:28:02.

obstacles ahead. Through the countryside though it

:28:02.:28:07.

is not so bad. But this is TV and we do have some interviews to get

:28:07.:28:17.

to. So cheating slightly! The Dutch bike is taking a bit of adapting to

:28:17.:28:26.

British trains and there is no special place for them on board.

:28:26.:28:33.

And then we hit London the cycle superhighways, London's big idea

:28:33.:28:41.

for giving cyclists their own space. London's self-styled psyche ing

:28:41.:28:45.

superhero d cycling superhero sees Dutch culture as part of the

:28:45.:28:48.

solution for reducing congestion. They have a totally different

:28:48.:28:54.

culture of cycling, we have to get that. When you cycle in Amsterdam

:28:54.:28:59.

or Copenhagen or Berlin you are not in a great fleet of people with

:28:59.:29:04.

their heads down wearing lycra who feel they have to get from A to B

:29:04.:29:08.

as fast as possible. Everyone is on big bike, they are weaving around,

:29:08.:29:13.

there is a much more relaxed feel to the way the psychists occupy the

:29:13.:29:18.

streets. We need to get that culture going. That is why we are

:29:18.:29:22.

doing the mini-Hollands. I believe in segregation where it is possible

:29:22.:29:27.

to do, but we don't have, in the centre of London, particularly, we

:29:27.:29:36.

don't have enough road space to concecrate entirely to cyclists.

:29:36.:29:43.

Taking a slight detour off the main route towards Westminster, we enter

:29:43.:29:47.

an emerging cycling culture, that seems to resemble the Dutch style.

:29:47.:29:54.

It is not just the lycra lads here. Across the UK there are signs the

:29:54.:29:57.

Dutch dream is starting to be recognised. On Hackney high street

:29:58.:30:07.
:30:08.:30:12.

they have turned it into a bikes- only zone. It is happening in

:30:12.:30:15.

London, changes are happening, people are embracing cycling so

:30:15.:30:20.

much more as a cultural part of London too, which is a fantastic

:30:20.:30:24.

thing to see it being embraced. It isn't just cycling in the

:30:24.:30:29.

netherlands, cycling in London bad, we are nowhere near perfect, but we

:30:29.:30:33.

are nowhere near absolutely hidious as well. We are in a strange

:30:33.:30:37.

inbetween place in London in cycling at the moment.

:30:37.:30:42.

Even if cycling culture is starting to change, many drivers still see

:30:42.:30:48.

cyclists as some kind of aggressive tribe. There is not much that gets

:30:48.:30:54.

under my skin, but sometimes when you see them going through

:30:54.:31:00.

crossings when there is women pushing prams, it is crazy. Others

:31:00.:31:04.

say it is not in the country's interest to give more space or

:31:04.:31:10.

financial support to cyclists. think Boris's plans for spending

:31:10.:31:15.

more on cycling is bonkers. Cycling is one of the most dangerous

:31:15.:31:19.

occupations you can undertake, you should realise that and that's why

:31:19.:31:23.

if you have any sense you get off your bike and actually use public

:31:23.:31:29.

transport or buy a car. They are becoming a very pushy minority

:31:29.:31:34.

group. You don't get that from motorists who are much better

:31:34.:31:38.

behaved generally. Everyone agrees it's going to take more than blue

:31:38.:31:42.

paint. Redesigning the roads is not just about creating beautiful

:31:42.:31:48.

segregated spaces in places like London's Hyde park. We're going to

:31:48.:31:52.

reclaim the city for the bike. We are spending a billion over the

:31:52.:31:56.

next den years to make London cycling much more cyclist-friendly,

:31:56.:31:59.

much more like Amsterdam. We are not going to be Amsterdam any time

:32:00.:32:03.

soon, it took them 40 years to become Amsterdam, but we are going

:32:03.:32:07.

to be a lot further towards it than we were.

:32:07.:32:12.

1232 cyclists were killed in the UK last -- 123 psychists were killed

:32:12.:32:19.

in the UK last year, more don cyclists were killed in the UK last

:32:19.:32:23.

year, more than soldiers killed. This is the eight year in the row

:32:23.:32:32.

the figures have increased. Even those who have had the worst

:32:32.:32:36.

imaginable experiences are still actively promoting a greater

:32:36.:32:40.

British cycling culture. She was cycling to work going straight

:32:40.:32:44.

ahead, a lorry who was turning left turned left across her path and she

:32:44.:32:48.

was killed instantly. Do you encourage more people to take to

:32:48.:32:52.

their bikes even after your own experience? Yes, definitely. That

:32:52.:32:55.

is the only way to go. There are so many arguments in favour of cycling.

:32:55.:33:01.

We are going to need to think radically about how we deal with

:33:01.:33:06.

the reality that there are going to be many, many cyclists and many

:33:07.:33:11.

more pedestrians. The next person we meet on route to Westminster is

:33:11.:33:17.

Ron ka, this CCTV footage shows the moment just before she was hit by

:33:17.:33:21.

that lorry. This is the marble arch, I was here, they closed behind me

:33:21.:33:26.

and clipped my wheel from the back and dragged me all the way across

:33:26.:33:30.

down the Edgeware Road path. It is easy to think it is not going to

:33:30.:33:34.

happen to you, you hear these things on the news all the time. As

:33:34.:33:38.

with my case I thought it wouldn't happen to me but it does. Be

:33:38.:33:47.

careful. Back on our bikes and time for the

:33:47.:33:57.
:33:57.:34:03.

final approach. We made it, trustee Dutch bike and I and the crew

:34:03.:34:08.

survived the journey. Back over in the netherlands they are spending

:34:08.:34:13.

�30 per person on cycling, here in the UK that figure is �2.22, you

:34:13.:34:18.

can feel the difference. On the 2nd of September the all-party

:34:18.:34:21.

parliamentary cycling group will be inside here telling David Cameron

:34:21.:34:27.

to increase that figure to at least �10 per person. This is being seen

:34:27.:34:31.

as the politicians' opportunity to support the British cycling

:34:31.:34:37.

revolution. As if by magic the day after our

:34:37.:34:42.

journey ended this part of the UK really did resemble a cycling

:34:42.:34:48.

utopia. 15,000 cyclists from across the UK descended on the capital for

:34:48.:34:52.

Ride London, the biggest cycling event the country has ever seen. It

:34:52.:34:55.

is relatively easy to organise a single weekend though, the real

:34:55.:35:00.

challenge for the UK will be in making cycling a sustainable and

:35:00.:35:08.

integrated part of the whole culture. Who wants to join a

:35:08.:35:12.

political party? Hardly anyone. About 1% of the electorate is a

:35:12.:35:18.

paid up member of one of the three main Westminster parties. SNP and

:35:18.:35:22.

Green Party membership is on the up from a low base, and UKIP are

:35:22.:35:27.

thought to have around 30,000 activists. What is it for someone

:35:27.:35:32.

who signs up and pays their subs. We have been to Clacton-on-Sea

:35:32.:35:39.

where the Tory membership is up 60% in two years.

:35:39.:35:47.

This stands no chance. Up against this. Filing cabinets ditched for

:35:47.:35:52.

guilded pianos, the pot plant neglected for topiary. Have you

:35:52.:35:56.

seen the afternoon tea you can get at their properties. No, they are

:35:56.:36:00.

not that lavish, but none the less, the National Trust has boomed while

:36:00.:36:10.
:36:10.:36:29.

Most European countries have seen a decline in membership since the

:36:29.:36:33.

1980s, Britain's levels of membership are, however, among the

:36:33.:36:36.

lowest. As a percentage of the electorate it is only lower in

:36:36.:36:41.

Poland and Latvia. But in France and Germany it is not that much

:36:41.:36:45.

higher than us. Newsnight can reveal that President Obama's

:36:45.:36:50.

campaign manager is now joining the Conservatives' 2015 general

:36:50.:36:53.

election team. Newsnight broke this story, but now

:36:53.:36:56.

many are asking this question, the Tories may have hired another

:36:57.:37:03.

general, but where will be his foot soldiers?

:37:03.:37:08.

Influential activists' website, Conservative Home is looking to

:37:08.:37:11.

know exactly how many Tory members there are, right now nobody knows.

:37:11.:37:16.

We are told that the figures suggest rumours of the figures that

:37:16.:37:20.

we get that the membership is anywhere between 130,000 and

:37:20.:37:26.

100,000. There has been a fall. I think what this may suggest is that

:37:26.:37:29.

membership on the current model isn't sustainable. Whether it does

:37:29.:37:36.

or not, I think revealing these figures would be like going to the

:37:36.:37:39.

doctor if you know you have a problem. The experience is

:37:39.:37:45.

unpleasant but you have to do it. We are in Clacton on sea where one

:37:45.:37:50.

MP thinks that old party management is dead as a dod dough, and it is

:37:50.:37:55.

like the music store -- dodo, it is like HMV, we all know what happened

:37:55.:37:58.

to that. Instead you have to move to something like Spotify, I will

:37:58.:38:06.

let him explain. Welcome to the future of politics. You will have

:38:06.:38:09.

to explain your Spotify thesis for viewers? Spotify is a wonderful new

:38:09.:38:13.

way of selling music to people. It allows them to go on-line and

:38:13.:38:16.

listen to what they want when they want. It puts them in control. We

:38:16.:38:20.

need to sell politics that way and sell politics on-line. We need to

:38:20.:38:23.

allow people to have control. We need it allow them different tiers

:38:24.:38:28.

of membership. Unfortunate low we are still doing politics like it is

:38:28.:38:32.

1950 something, we are doing it in buildings like this and wondering

:38:32.:38:39.

why we are haemorrhaging membership. Look think, it is our -- look at

:38:39.:38:45.

this, this is our next flyer. But take a look at it, where do you see

:38:45.:38:51.

the Tory Party, let alone the logo, there isn't one. What is the theme?

:38:51.:38:54.

"wake up Westminster", it is a different way of doing politics,

:38:54.:38:59.

there is not a whiff of Tory boy about t there is no lecturing of

:38:59.:39:02.

people, we want people to come as they are. We want people to

:39:02.:39:06.

recognise that in a room with 100 people you will get far more than

:39:06.:39:11.

100 opinions on any one topic. happened was I wanted to go to

:39:11.:39:15.

university to study politics and international relations. So I

:39:15.:39:21.

messaged and Digaoed who the local -- googled who the local MP was and

:39:21.:39:25.

I found him, and I messaged him on twit, and I asked was there any way

:39:25.:39:29.

to come and have a chat about politics and make sure it was what

:39:29.:39:33.

I wanted to do. I tweeted him, he tweeted me back, which was a

:39:33.:39:38.

surprise. It just sort of went from there. You don't think if twit

:39:38.:39:45.

didn't exist and Facebook, and e- mail -- twit didn't exist you would

:39:45.:39:53.

have gotten on the door and been old fashioneded? You think of

:39:53.:39:57.

politician -- fashioned? You think of politicians as being

:39:57.:40:00.

intimidating to approach, through Twitter you realise they are

:40:00.:40:03.

ordinary people and they are helping and making the country a

:40:03.:40:12.

better place if they can do it. other parties are aware of the

:40:12.:40:16.

disengagment, the Liberal Democrats have used software used in

:40:16.:40:22.

President Obama's election campaign, allowing them to Taylor canvasing

:40:22.:40:28.

to individuals. In the last few years -- tailor canvasing to

:40:28.:40:30.

different individual. Labour are changing too? We help people to

:40:30.:40:34.

take action on things that matter to them in their local communities.

:40:34.:40:36.

We realise just because Labour is out of Government it doesn't mean

:40:36.:40:39.

it is out of power. And that by working with people, whether they

:40:40.:40:44.

are Labour members or not we make ourselves more relevent to them on

:40:44.:40:47.

things they really care about. Politicians all seem to believe the

:40:47.:40:52.

future lies in action, not words. Consensus, a rare thing from

:40:52.:40:57.

politicians. What about other solutions to

:40:57.:41:00.

boosting membership of our political parties. To discuss I'm

:41:00.:41:06.

joined from Ipswich by the MP you saw in the film, and Labour peer

:41:06.:41:11.

and academic, Morris Glassman. First of all, before we hear your

:41:11.:41:16.

solutions, what does a Labour Party member get for �44.52 a year?

:41:16.:41:21.

the whole the minutes from the last meeting. Is that it? The minutes

:41:21.:41:26.

from the last meeting? I think the party is changing and it has to.

:41:26.:41:29.

You can vote in local constituencies, but the thing with

:41:29.:41:32.

Labour it is a bit different from the Conservatives, we have got a

:41:32.:41:35.

bit of a problem with capitalism, and we believe that the Labour

:41:35.:41:38.

Party is an important part of the solution to that of people getting

:41:38.:41:43.

together. We have toffee-paying, due-paying members in order to have

:41:43.:41:47.

MPs to stand up to the domination of the banks. What do you get as a

:41:47.:41:53.

Conservative Party member for �25 a year? Not a great deal, it is not a

:41:53.:41:57.

very attractive retail proposition, which is why we are haemorrhaging

:41:57.:42:01.

members. People in a sense pay �25 in order to be invited to come to a

:42:01.:42:07.

lot of very costly dinners. I think we can do politics differently. If

:42:07.:42:11.

we are looking to aggregate votes and opinion, we can do it in a very,

:42:11.:42:15.

very different way rather than running a series of dining clubs in

:42:15.:42:19.

the south-east of England. Labour has around just under 200,000

:42:19.:42:24.

members, how many members does a political party need to be viable

:42:24.:42:28.

across the UK do you think? I think the crucial thing and the

:42:28.:42:31.

discussion I would like to have with Douglas is that it is not

:42:31.:42:35.

really about a retail proposition, this is the way we govern ourselves.

:42:35.:42:39.

This is self-governance and I think the crucial thing is relationships,

:42:39.:42:43.

power, action. Politics is great and what we have to do is develop

:42:43.:42:46.

leaders from our local communities from our constituencies, they have

:42:46.:42:50.

to be able to campaign on the issues that they can agree and care

:42:50.:42:54.

about. Then they have to learn from it. We have to be much more

:42:54.:42:58.

tolerant of local failure and getting things right. With the

:42:58.:43:07.

party we used to have Ernest Bevan who never went to school, the

:43:07.:43:11.

movement was the teacher. We have forgotten about politics, politics

:43:11.:43:15.

is great. It is movement from the grassroots and the ground, do you

:43:15.:43:23.

agree Douglas? I do, I think it matters enormously if parties

:43:23.:43:27.

shrivel, if they exist only on paper as many Conservative

:43:27.:43:32.

Associations it is the case, what you ent up is a remote clique in

:43:32.:43:36.

Westminster who -- end up with a remote clique in Westminster who

:43:36.:43:40.

run the party with a few local franchises, and people feel

:43:40.:43:45.

disenaged. We can, if we run around the world see better ways of

:43:45.:43:50.

running party, look at the Five Star movement in Italy, it is web-

:43:50.:43:55.

based, one in four Italians voted for it. We need to look at that and

:43:55.:43:59.

work out how to turn party politics in this country on its head.

:43:59.:44:02.

Instead of it being run from Westminster create political

:44:02.:44:06.

parties are insurgent movements against the Westminster elite.

:44:06.:44:08.

sounds like you are saying there is no link between your Conservative

:44:08.:44:14.

Party members and the leadership, is that why the members are falling

:44:14.:44:19.

off the cliff, not literally? know one of the reasons why I think

:44:19.:44:23.

people aren't joining us, what do you get for it? Do you get to

:44:23.:44:27.

decide policy? No, the elite decide that. Do you get to decide who is

:44:27.:44:30.

the chairman of the party? No, that is the prerogative of one

:44:30.:44:35.

individual. You get to decide the leader, that is pretty crucial?

:44:35.:44:43.

Yeah. You do, once hopefully not very often. There is a strong

:44:43.:44:47.

argument to say back in the 1980s and 1970s as a mass membership

:44:47.:44:50.

organisation, had you had a voice, you could have a conference that

:44:50.:44:54.

was by the members rather than by big corporate lobby-vested

:44:54.:44:58.

interests that price the ordinary members out of attendance. Do you

:44:58.:45:04.

want to go back to the 1970s and 1980s? I have real afx for the 70s

:45:04.:45:09.

not really -- affectioned for the 70s, not really the 80s. It can't

:45:09.:45:13.

be this is about changes in rules, there is a new politics coming, a

:45:13.:45:15.

new politics that wants local power, that wants to have some control

:45:15.:45:19.

over their lives. Does Ed Miliband know there is a new politics coming,

:45:19.:45:24.

what is the disconnect there between the grassroots andership?

:45:24.:45:29.

have to give -- Leadership?I have to give Ed Miliband kudos on this,

:45:29.:45:32.

he has accepted there has to be radical culture change and

:45:32.:45:35.

political change. You can't get people involved in something that

:45:35.:45:38.

is meaningless, people want power and some control. If it is, I think

:45:38.:45:41.

it is parallel between the two parties, seven or eight people

:45:41.:45:45.

making the decisions, people are rightfully disengaged and kind of

:45:45.:45:49.

really disenchanted with that. There is a big change coming, it is

:45:49.:45:53.

not just procedural it is political. Do you think it is overly defensive

:45:53.:45:57.

of the Conservative Party not to tell people how many members you

:45:57.:46:00.

have got? I think it is maybe a little bit like those banks that

:46:00.:46:03.

don't want to reveal their balance sheet because there is bad news

:46:03.:46:10.

lurking there. I think we should fess up. I'm happy to say how many

:46:10.:46:14.

members my association has, it is when we are frank and honest is

:46:14.:46:18.

when we start to do something about it. The party nationally has to

:46:18.:46:23.

fess up and publish on Conservative Home how many ballot papers were

:46:23.:46:28.

sent out. I suspect it will be horrific and lower than 100,000.

:46:28.:46:31.

But if something is bad, if you face up to it you can start to fix

:46:31.:46:35.

it. We are starting to fix it in my constituency, only because we have

:46:35.:46:41.

acknowledged quite how bad things have become.

:46:41.:46:51.
:46:51.:47:19.

That's it for tonight. Kirsty will clearing away. What we will find

:47:19.:47:23.

tomorrow morning is a chilly start, temperatures in single figures in

:47:23.:47:28.

the countryside. Misand fog. The cloud building more into the

:47:28.:47:38.
:47:38.:47:44.

afternoon. That for Northern Sharp downpours but dry inbetween.

:47:44.:47:48.

In northern England more showers, heavy one, slow-moving, possibly a

:47:48.:47:54.

rumble of thunder. For parts of East Anglia where there was more

:47:54.:47:58.

cloud around, it is prieter with a few showers, warm in the sunshine.

:47:58.:48:03.

We will start to find that weather front creeping across the Irish Sea

:48:03.:48:08.

to approach Wales. It will hold off the shower activity through this

:48:08.:48:18.
:48:18.:48:28.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Victoria Derbyshire. How badly are the courts failing young people who claim abuse? Plus low interest rates, Holland v the UK on cycling and the peril of the political party.


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