06/08/2013 Newsnight


With Victoria Derbyshire. Why the west is on red alert in Yemen, the reality of the US Drone strikes, the recovery and can the health service promise to do zero harm?

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diplomats have pulled out of Yemen and western visitors are told to


leave immediately. Embassies across the Middle East are shut, but can


the threat from Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula be contained?


Americans America's special operations forces are being readied,


it looks like escalation. What about the people who can't


leave? We follow the Yemeni villagers living and dying with the


daily reality of American drone strikes.


Here doctors and nurses should aim for zero-harm to patients. Or be


prosecuted for willful misconduct, but no finger pointing when things


go wrong. We will hear from the man who wrote today's NHS report for


David Cameron. And it lives! The British economy


has started twitching again, but behind the new numbers, is this


really what you would want to call a recovery? Is the resurrection for


real? Is there a risk of driving a stake through its heart.


Good evening, the exodus of westerners from Yemen continued


today amid on going fears over the terror threat in the country.


British diplomatic staff are already on route to the UK. It


comes after the New York Times reported that American Security


Services intercepted phone conversations between two senior


members of Al-Qaeda. Rp presenting, the paper says, the most serious


plot since 9/11. Our diplomatic editor is here with


more. What can you tell us? I understand they are now looking


at sending special operations forces into Yemen. These sorts of


people have been in and out of there in recent years as training


team members or in liaison roles in relation to some of those drone


strikes. But the sort of option that is now being looked at is the


sort of option that would give them a strike option against the Al-


Qaeda leadership, able to mount the kind of operations we have seen in


Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years. What is the threat? It is


interesting, there seems to have been a whole tiered bit of


intelligence reporting from across the region, tiered levels, if you


like, of different types of intelligence coming in, being


assessed in different place. We know that the Americans across the


region have basically shut up shop with embassies in 19 countries.


Right the way from Tripoli over on the west of that map in Libya to


Muscat in the east, Sana'a, Kay row, ma -- Cairo, major stations. It


comes from chatter, Ramadan at the end, and Muslim countries may want


to do actual attacks and protests on American interests. There is the


much more specific stuff about Aden and Sana'a, we know from the New


York Times report that they intercepted conversations between


Ayman al-Zawahiri, the leader of Al-Qaeda, and Tony Way, the


competent atrb and the competent affiliate of Al-Qaeda. It would be


range to say you were listening to the phone calls if that was the


method you were using. Others say it was electronic communication, a


little vague there. There is another level of intelligence


reporting down at the ground level in Sana'a, we know for example from


the Yemeni Interior Ministry that they have tracked Al-Qaeda


militants coming into Sana'a ready to mount attacks on western


interests there. Also things hotting up in the country with a


further drone strike north of the apple in the Marib province, said


to have killed four people, including two on the Yemeni 25 most


wanted list. Also there has been US manned aircraft over the country.


Is the UK's assessment of the risk the same as the US? It seems less


stark. People in Whitehall argue that the Americans may be taking no


chances because of what happened in September when they lost an


ambassador. The UK's view is not to get involved with the drone strikes


and with the direct action-type forces.


Let as talk now to Conservative MP, Rory Stewart, who recently returned


from Yemen. And dword Gordon director of planning during the


George W Bush era and now a risk consultant. David Gordon, let me


ask you for your reaction to the fact that American Special Forces


are readying for deployment? think here that what the Americans


are getting ready for is the possibility of a new type of Al-


Qaeda attack, based more on what happened in Benghazi than on the


traditional purely terrorist attack that you have an instantaneous


event, it has happened, something very, very big blows up. In


Benghazi as we saw there was this massing of extremists and militants


attacking a number of targets. I think that's what Special Forces


are being readied to protect and go directed against. Of course we


don't really know exactly what the threat is here? Rory Stewart, is it


a good idea? Is it a good idea to withdraw British diplomats. Is it a


good idea to get the special fores ready for deployment? I think we


need to understand what this threat is. In that I really agree with


David, we are really moving in the dark here. Unless we actually know


what the threat is it is very difficult to understand. It is very


unusual to have a situation where you would remove all your British


diplomats out of a country. Normally in somewhere like Iraq and


Afghanistan where there are very severe threats or even Yemen where


we have had bad threats for a few years, you look down the embassy


and trust the embassy defences to keep people out. I suspect there


must be something very strange going on here in the nature of the


threat. Meaning what?It must be something where they must guess and


maybe David's right the Benghazi analogy is the right one, that the


traditional defences of the embassy would not be enough to keep out the


threat. Mr Gordon, are you surprised that US intelligence


released such specific details about intercepting the


communications between these two senior Al-Qaeda leaders? Well, I


think part of the intent here was prevention, to say we know what you


are up to, you better not do this. It is a bit unusual, but I think


that this is part of this is for whatever reason is there is a


chance that the terrorists know we know they are about to do something


they may not do it. Can I also say we need to distinguish the


terrorist threats from what has been happening in Yemen, that has


been much more positive in the last two years than anyone expected. It


is surprising now we find ourselves looking at Yemen in this way. If


you look at all the negotiation happening, people predicted civil


war, they predicted chaos, actually things have been much better


recently. Do you really think so? The problem of Yemen and Al-Qaeda


operatives there has been around for a number of years, hasn't it?


It has, but if you go back a year or 18 months, Al-Qaeda were holding


territory in Yemen. That was gotten rid of, they no longer hold the


territory. There was going to be huge problems between seperatists


in the south and groups in the north, it didn't really materialise.


Yemen has been more peaceful than people feared. Is that how it has


been seen in Washington? I think Yemen is still seen as being the


territory for a very capable Al- Qaeda group. But I think Rory is


right that in terms of how people were thinking about Yemen a year or


two ago, it was quite a bit more negative than what we have seen.


Look, I think what we may be seeing here is Al-Qaeda leadership in


Afghanistan and Pakistan urging the Al-Qaeda affiliates in the Middle


East, in North Africa, in the Levant, to do something against a


western target. Because in effect the centre piece of the Al-Qaeda


resurgence in this part of the world has been in Syria. What they


have really been doing here is fighting against Assad and


Hezbollah. I think what Al-Zawahiri is trying to say here is, yes it is


OK to become domestically focused on the near enemy, but don't lose


sight of the ultimate target of Al- Qaeda and that is the west and we


need to do something to show that we are still a form mid-able anti-


western organisation. -- Formidable anti-western


organisation. How should the west deal with that? We need to deal


cautiously. What I mean by this is we mustn't upset a lot of the


progress that has been made in Yemen. In the long run the way to


deal with a terrorist threat in Yemen is to get stability in that


country. That stability is painfully getting there. It has


been getting there because we managed to hold Russia and China


and the United States and France and Britain together with the whole


gulf operation council. Very unusual to have all these countries


co-operating. What we want to avoid is an anti-terrorist strategy that


begins to disrupt the stability that is beginning to emerge. Let's


hope that whatever this is we are going to get back to diplomatic


operations, so we will be able to reopen these embassies. No more


drones? Drone strikes will continue in Yemen. Would you like them to


stop? Sorry?Would you like them to stop? Am I in favour of drone


strikes? I'm not, for different reasons I'm not a great fan of


drone strikes, I think we can expect them to continue in Yemen


for the foreseeable future. It is clear the US thinks Yemen is


the new frontline in the war with Al-Qaeda, which is why they have


been sending as many drones there as they have to Pakistan and


Afghanistan. Strikes by drone aircraft have wiped out a whole


generation of Al-Qaeda's leadership. But is the use of them creating as


many enemies as they are killing? We have been to Zinjibar in


southern Yemen. The report contains some disturbing images.


We're heading into Zinjibar in southern Yemen. For years Al-Qaeda


in the Arabian Peninsula, or AQAP, have planned attacks from this part


of the country. There have been Yemeni army operations on the


ground, American drone strikes from the air, and repeated Al-Qaeda


counter strikes. This is a town under siege. On the streets we can


find little public support for Al- Qaeda. But plenty of anger over the


drones that target AQAP. What do you blame for the retruction of


Winning the support of people like this is crucial in America's fight


against extremism. The people here fear US drones as much as they fear


Mohhamed Bagash and his two children were outside a health


clinic when it was hit by an American strike. They ran to a


school and hid in the basement, He carried his children out, his


son survived but his eight-year-old daughter bled to death. 15


eyewitnesses reported seeing a drone hovering in the air, and two


President Obama has said that drone strikes kill far fewer civilians


than conventional bombing or ground operations. In the capital, Sana'a,


I have come to meet one of the most pro--American voices in Yemen.


Farea Al-Muslimi runs a pro- democracy organisation. He thinks


the drone war is playing right into Al-Qaeda's hands.


I think the drones have been one of the effective tools for Al-Qaeda in


Yemen. A big part of power for Al- Qaeda at the moment is to convince


Yemenis that they are in a war with Yemen and they are attacking the


sovereignty. One of the biggest mistakes he says is the way that


the US deals with civilian casualties. You are killing


civilians for no need and you are not even going to say sorry or


admit it or issue apology or pay compensation. Last September Ahmed


was working in the fields outside the town, his father, mother and


sister had gone to visit the local health clinic. It was 3.00pm when


he heard a buzzing noise in the sky, He jumped on his motorbike to see


what had happened, when he got there he found that two missiles


This footage was given to us by a local journalist. It is too


gruesome to show in full. The truck was packed with passengers coming


back from the market. The target was probably a local Al-Qaeda


leader, seen travelling on the same stretch of road. He got away, but


13 people were incinerated. The few people that survived were taken to


the local clinic, they report seeing at least one drone and two


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 65 seconds


In an off the record quote, given to a US newspaper, US officials did


concede it was an American strike. But there has been no American


acknowledgement or apology to the families of the 13 victims in Yemen.


What does your community think, who do they blame for this? What would


you say to the people who ordered this strike? The Yemeni Government


has promised an investigation into the attack. But no-one we spoke to


has seen any evidence of an inquiry. One group that does claim to offer


justice and redress is Al-Qaeda. We have heard many reports of Al-


Qaeda appearing after air strikes offering compensation and


increasing recruitment. Al-Qaeda have stepped in to help rebuild


homes, they provide funeral costs and offer financial support to the


families of those killed and injured. They also pressure the


relatives of those killed to join up to gain revenge. It is clear


that even when they lose active members, Al-Qaeda use these strikes


as an opportunity to recruit many more.


President Obama has said there is little chance of capturing


militants, Yemen is too weak. The state's reach too limited. He says


sometimes the only option is to kill.


But here many argue suspects can be caught, and they accuse the United


States of extra judicial execution. Anwar al-Awlaki was chief


propagandaist for AQAP, a Yemeni- American, he called for attacks on


American targets. He had close ties to the underwear bomber who tried


to explode a bomb in an aeroplane over Detroit in 2009. I'm on the


way to meet Mr Al-Awlaki's father. He says he was negotiating a deal


that would have seen his son stand trial, instead his son was killed


by an air strike. But your son was preaching hate and himself had


praised attacks on America? Even if he made some of those sermons that


could be classified as hate sermons, I don't think it is right for the


United States to go and kill him. But he is accused of being involved


in the airliner plot? Legally these are only allegations. They have not


been proven in a court of law. I don't know that in any court that


those allegations were proven against my son. If there are any


allegations against my son the United States Government could have


done something else going to court, but they didn't do that, they went


ahead and killed him. Mr Al-Awlaki said the ideology that consumed his


son is now taking many more. There were maybe 300 people who were in


Al-Qaeda. Now we are talking about thousands of people, all over Yemen.


We asked an interview with the US Ambassador in Yemen, our request


was declined. The Yemeni Foreign Minister did agree to an interview.


We began by asking whether America's targeting of Yemenis in


Yemen a threat to the country's sovereignty. I think sovereignty is


in danger if it is done without the approval of the Government. If it


is done with the approval of the Government and for the interests of


the Yemeni people and their fight against terrorism, I don't think


this applies. But it is making people angry?


know, it make everybody angry to see drones coming and hitting


targets in Yemen. And killing civilians? This is accidental, they


are not targeting. Innocent people get killed, unfortunately. Every


Yemeni we have spoken to said target strikes acted as a useful


recruitment tool for them? I have heard this argument, there might be


some truth in it. But I think the fact is that if your targets are


Al-Qaeda leaders and if they are in dangering the security of your


country, there is no alternative. The future of this conflict will


depend on whether America can convince Yemenis that it is on


their side. Every night in the back streets,


young kids get together for a game of football. But growing up in


Yemen is hard. Their prospects are bleak. Corruption is endemic,


Yemenis are in poverty. It will take more than this to get rid of


Al-Qaeda. The US provides hundreds of thousands of dollars in aid to


Yemen. But the noise from targeted strikes is drowning out other


progress. And whilst America continues to decimate Al-Qaeda from


the sky, opposition in the streets is growing. At ground level winning


in Yemen is harder than it look. You can see more of that reporting


from Yemen on Our World on the news channel this weekend.


For avid economy watchers in this country there have been several


sightings of a rare breed in the last few days, good news and quite


a lot of it. Sales up, house prices up, even manufacturing up, for some


it is enough to declare bomb times and break open the champagne. With


most people still worse off than before the crash, so this recovery


be like the British summer, unexpected, much celebrated and


short lived. We have been finding out.


The sun is out, the bars are open. The economy, like this cocktail, is


exhibiting qualities of fire on top of ice. Growth amid Austerry, and


in ever-larger dollop, led -- what matters is whether economic policy


can stain this growth, and that depends on what is causing it.


Today official figures showed a marked upturn in manufacturing, it


grew by 1.9% in May and June. There has been a rise in the all-


important service sector, that makes up two thirds of the economy.


It is now growing faster than at any time through 2006. That has got


economists rapidly remixing their GDP predictions. At the moment the


good news just keeps on coming, it looks like maybe some sort of


momentum is building in the economy. Some people have talked about the


economy reaching escape velocity. Where the recovery becomes self-


Steyning. I think that is maybe a bit over -- self sustaining, I


think that is maybe a bit over the stop. Things are on a firmer


footing than a few months ago. you dig into the details, there the


problems start? The signs are all the bonhomie is being driven by


lower saving and easier borrowing. If that is true and inflation takes


off then the Governor of the Bank of England, Jay Carney, will be


forced, or come under -- Mark Carney, will be forced to or come


under pressure to raise interest rates. That is something he wishes


to put off for as long as possible. In the first quarter we saw the


savings ratio lower than for a long time. That poses dangers for the


medium-to-long-term, first of all it may not be sustainable, and as a


country we need to save more not less. Mark Carney gets the first


taste of the limelight, the word is he will give a clear signal to keep


interest rates low for a period. Something that did work in the US.


If he fixes the rate too long and inflation eats up people's wages


that could choke off the recovery, again. I think he will press ahead


tomorrow with commit to go keep interest rates low for a long time


until for example unemployment comes down to a certain rate. Some


people think he doesn't need to do that any more, but the economy is


picking up momentum. I think now is the time to keep interest rates low


so people don't expect a rise and that snuffs out the recovery


finally getting going. The bank also has to use its muscle to


squash any new housing bubble. That has never been done before. There


is no free lunch here. It is clearly a risk that if the governor


guarantees interest rates will stay at zero for a very long time that


does stoke up bubbles and risks eroding the credibility of monetary


policy. It is a risk, but the risk of the other way that interest


rates shoot up and choke off the recovery is probably going to be


the determining factor here. Even if we do achieve lift-off, this


chart shows how far we have to go. It logs the output of all the UK's


productive industries, and shows we are nowhere near output at the peak.


It is the rate of recovery, however temporary, that is politically


important. For the past three years the political climate has been


decidedly non-but colic, with the politicians -- non-bucolic,


politicians aware that the buzz in London is not created elsewhere.


Now economic growth is rising and spreading, you are beginning to


hear two words you never thought you might in the same sentence,


that is "autumn" and "election". Yes it is uneven and patchy growth,


and if wages don't start to rise yes it will be hard to sustain. But


it is starting to alter the political arithmetic.


We talk to Allister Heath, the editor of City AM, and Kate Barker


an economist and former member of the Monetary Policy Committee. How


real is this, how tangible this recovery? The data we have had over


the past couple of months has really been a lot stronger. It


feels as though both business and consumers are starting to get some


confidence back. That has been very badly lacking in the economy. I


think this is good news. We have to be careful, we are coming are from


a very long period of a very long depression. Output is still more


than 3% lower than it was in 2008. It is a long way from a normal


economy. In the piece we had know we talked about low savings rates


and impaired banking sector. There is a long way to go before we hit


something that feels normal. Despite the figures people are


really struggling?. People are still getting poorer and wages are


not going up as much as inflation. People are substantially poorer


than a few years ago. I'm worried about this growth. It is the wrong


kind of growth. It is growth fuelled once again by excessive


consumer spending rather than increasing the production for the


economy. We are not producing more or exporting more, we are spending


more. What are we using to spend, we haven't got the wages or cash?


No, so people are dipping into their savings and also the


Government is fuelling increased borrowing and trying to stimulate


the mortgage market is subsidising credit, is subsidising mortgages.


That is quite a dangerous route, feel we have not really learned the


lessons of the past. The economy is not being rebalanced. Yes it has


grown, yes the news is good, and yes probably GDP will go up by much


more than anybody thought this year. I don't really think it is


sustainable in terms it is not high-quality growth or the growth


we need to get out of the bubble we have seen for the last few years.


The Governor of the Bank of England is expected to know tomorrow what


the base rate will be. For a considerable period of time this


called "forward guidance"? I don't know about this being the right


sort of recovery. I don't think it is something that is started with


consumer spending, you have to start somewhere. That will bring


the production along with it. We won't produce if there is no demand,


it is difficult to export at the moment. We have to look to the


domestic consumer to get that back. What is the governor doing? We


start to get people talking about interest rates going up. What he


has to do tomorrow is to try to tell with us what are the


circumstances in which the bank is going to start to put interest


rates up, to try to stop people speculating month by month that is


what is going to happen. He has quite a difficult job. I have been


on the committee. The other eight members are pretty feisty and have


quite different views. He isn't just going to give his views but


the views of the committee. I think he will try to say to the public


that they will keep bank rates low for some time, until unemployment


is falling and wages picking up. If we don't see wages pick up we are


not on our way back to recovery. What if he and the rest of the


committee decide they need to pick up the base rate because inflation


starts to shoot up and people have taken out mortgage, loans and so on


and so forth, based on the fact that the base rate will stay low


for a considerable period of time. It is a dangerous promise to be


waiting at the moment. With the economy starting to grow we will


start seeing inflationary pressures. What about the principle first of


all? The principle of trying to say, look, I'm not going to put up rates


unless something happens, unemployment falls or the economy


starts to grow faster. That is fine. The problem is, at a time like now


it is hard to predict anything like this. He's going to promise the


wrong thing. I don't think now is the time for extended period of low


interest rates. Quite the contrary. 0.5 interest rates in this country,


a crisis level of interest rates, an emergency level of interest


rates. We are no longer in the emergency situation. The economy is


growing. You have retail sales going up, manufacturing, you have


all the good figures coming out of the economy and we shouldn't be


talking about keeping rates low for another six months. You would put


the base rate up by how much? quarter or half a point. For what


purpose? First to send a symbolic signal to show the economy is


recovering and the bank is more confident and rates should go up.


It is a pro-growth move. To start warning people rates will go up


more as the economy continues to grow and they need to get their


finances in order, and they need to reduce borrowing and rates starting


to up properly. Do we need that warning? I disagree with that.


Firstly, I think if we started to put rates up a little bit, there is


a big risk that markets would get carried away push the yield up, it


will affect money for the long-term for companies. I don't agree with


the proposition that once rate go up they have to go up a long way.


In terms of bank rate we know, of course, that other rate, the rates


people are borrowing at are well above 0.5 indeed. It has been very


difficult to get rates as low as we would have liked. I don't think


they need to go up a long way in the next few years. I wouldn't want


to start warning people of thated today.


Patient safety should be the English NHS's top priority. That


was the message today from no less than a former healthcare adviser to


Barack Obama. In the wake of needless suffering in some of our


hospital, the Government asked Professor Don Berwick to assess


what had gone wrong. His review spoke of a zero-harm culture, tried


in Scotland, and a new criminal offence of willful misconduct he


doesn't seem the need to prosecute health workers who fail to report


mistakes. He doesn't also want In the two-and-a-half thousand


years since the hippocratic oath was written, healthcare has changed


immeasurably. But the tenet of the oath remain the same. And yet, in


the 21st century, in spite of all the developments that should have


made looking after patients safer, many more than expected still die


under NHS care. Today one of the world's leading experts on patient


safety published his plans to create a culture of called "zero-


harm" in the NHS. One of Professor Don Berwick's findings is NHS staff


are not to blame. He says in the vast majority of cases it is the


systems, procedure, conditions, the environment and constraints they


face that lead to patient safety problems.


His recommendations include that staffing numbers should be adequate


and decided locally. He did not recommend minimum staffing levels.


Criminal sanctions should apply to reckless and willful neglect or


mistreatment of patients. But that unintended errors must not be


criminalised. Staff should speak up when things go wrong. But there


should be no blame culture. More simple regulation with an


independent review by the end of 2017.


While patient and nursing groups welcome the report, they say


opportunities have been missed. doesn't go far enough. We know from


evidence, from countries like Australia, and from the United


States, California by way of example, staffing level are decreed


in law. Organisation are not permitted to go below the minimum.


Where we have had problems in some parts of the NHS, it has often been


the case that you had far too few people on frontline doing the job.


We believe at some stage by law minimum staffing levels would be


set. We think that is in everyone's interest. My charity here is on a


daily basis are hearing horrendous stories about what has gone wrong


in the NHS. That hasn't gone away. This report might be a small step


in getting the patient safety, culture and communication needs


that we have. It can only work to complement the report about Mid-


Staffordshire. That report made 290 recommendations which is when


patient safety really came to the fore. In the cake of that inquiry,


England's Medical Director, Sir Bruce Keogh, investigated 14 NHS


Trusts in England, 11 have been placed in special measures. While


those reports looked at specific trusts, this review is welcomed by


some as encouraging culture change across the NHS. Those serious


incidents of disastrous care are wrong, thankfully. Never the less


the whole system could do a lot better to focus more on patient


safety. This report was taking that system-level view, with a range of


recommendations, right the way from staff in the NHS through to


Government. How you can achieve that sort of change. But changing


the culture of a huge organisation like the NHS is not something that


will happen quickly. Meanwhile today the medical production


society found three-quarters of sunnor doctors they surveyed said


they did not have enough time to give their patients the care they


require. Earlier I went to the Department of Health to speak to


Professor Berwick. Can I ask you first of all about the structure of


the NHS, huge bureaucratic organisation, over one million


employees thousands of managers. From your experience of it, do you


think it is the right structure to deliver safe patient care? There is


probably no-one right structure, but it is a promising structure to


do it T you have central accountability, the ability to


deploy resources and enormous possibility for learning. The NHS


is big enough anywhere a problem develops somebody else on the


system may have solved. It may be a weakness but it is its greatest


strength. Overly bureaucratic? There is that in all agencies, and


we experiment with deferred authority and oscillating. I think


there is a sense that a lot of the important things that need to


happen will happen in the shortend, in the hospitals, Trusts and


regions, that is a productive direction. If one of your relatives


had died from neglect in one of the hospitals in England in the last


few years. You might justifiably want to blame someone? The human


reaction to the strategy we saw at Mid-Staffordshire or something gone


wrong is. It is anger, fear, remorse, looking for someone to


blame, that is totally human. You would feel the same. Anything wrong


with that. Nothing wrong with it, it just won't work. The way out of


the trouble is really through a different approach. Hold on a


minute, that wasn't ip tensional we didn't do it on purpose --


intentional, we didn't do it on purpose, how can we stop it


happening to anyone else again. We say it in a report that the only


suitable homage to the people who suffered in mid-faf Fordshire is


data, learning and improvement. You never, ever get to safety through


anger and blame. You get there through learning, curiosity and


commitment. What about the relatives who might want to hold


someone accountable? Tremendous empathy for them. I understand how


they would be angry, I would be too. The way to respond is to say look,


we are going to make this better, we together will come together and


we will make this service better and better and better in honour of


your injured relative. It is the only way we can do that really


respects them. If we choose a different path, the path of anger


or recrimination, you don't get there. What will happen is people


will hide the data, they will run and hide.


Because of the no-blame culture that you want to see in the NHS, is


that why you have rejected what Francis recommended, which was this


legal requirement for health staff to admit mistakes or report


failings? I see it is a balancing act, we may have moved the balance


to a different place. We do, for example, have in it a very small


call for what would happen infrequently, the prosecution of


people who willfully come close. There is respect to a duty or to


disclose, that is a tricky business. You really can't require people to


talk. It doesn't work. They will hide and become frightened. So we


shyed away from a duty of reporting for everyone for everything. There


is some strong language there about the absolute requirement that


patients be told when something seriously goes wrong and that


should be expected as a prove fgsal duty and owned by -- professional


duty and owned by managers. Can you see a situation where a prosecution


might be inappropriate? Sabotage when there is someone of criminal


intent who is stealing mediciness and substituting. Do we need new


laepblgslation? I'm not British -- Legislation? I'm not sure but the


advisory group felt better reformed in me and some introduction of the


statutory requirement would go some way. In mid-staffs the problem was


not the absence of some statute, it was a cultural phenomenon where


people didn't have the skills to look at data, and a vicious cycle


began leading to opaqueness and injury. No new law would have


prevended Mid-Staffordshire. In the past you have -- We vented Mid-


Staffordshire. You described yourself as romantic about England


would you confess that now? It is a nation committed to universality


and as a basic human right. You have chosen to do it with tax


support and publicly funded. You have done it in a way that is free


at the point of service. It is committed to equity. It is an


amazing investment. I'm still a constant fan of that endeavour.


are still romantic about it? still think it is ra great human


endeavour. If look at Mid- Staffordshire for a minute, take a


step back, what happened here was something went badly wrong. That


could happen anywhere. It went badly wrong. So many other nations


and places nothing would have happened, something went badly


wrong much you wouldn't have a mechanism here, the country is


mobilised journalism, the fo., my point is you can act because you


have a -- can take it and execute it. It is a shame it has to be


triggered by tragedy but you can act on it and improve things. I


think that will happen. That's all for tonight. We will be back


tomorrow. Until then, have a good tomorrow. Until then, have a good


evening. . Wednesday starts with rain in


Scotland, that will break up into showers during the day. Some cloud


building as the day goes on, but the rain is hard to find the one or


two showers popping up in Northern Ireland, a scattering of showers


for the afternoon in Scotland. Sunnier spells inDean. Inamongst


those hef and slow moving, but most will avoid them. As we look to


northern England you have cloud, sunny spells, the Midlands too.


There will be more cloud compared with today. The far south-east for


coastal counties, there may be a shower or thunder storm hopping


across the channel. A lower risk they will push inland.


The south west of England and for Wales, yes, the odd stray shower,


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