06/08/2013 Newsnight

diplomats have pulled out of Yemen and western visitors are told to

leave immediately. Embassies across the Middle East are shut, but can

the threat from Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula be contained?

Americans America's special operations forces are being readied,

it looks like escalation. What about the people who can't

leave? We follow the Yemeni villagers living and dying with the

daily reality of American drone strikes.

Here doctors and nurses should aim for zero-harm to patients. Or be

prosecuted for willful misconduct, but no finger pointing when things

go wrong. We will hear from the man who wrote today's NHS report for

David Cameron. And it lives! The British economy

has started twitching again, but behind the new numbers, is this

really what you would want to call a recovery? Is the resurrection for

real? Is there a risk of driving a stake through its heart.

Good evening, the exodus of westerners from Yemen continued

today amid on going fears over the terror threat in the country.

British diplomatic staff are already on route to the UK. It

comes after the New York Times reported that American Security

Services intercepted phone conversations between two senior

members of Al-Qaeda. Rp presenting, the paper says, the most serious

plot since 9/11. Our diplomatic editor is here with

more. What can you tell us? I understand they are now looking

at sending special operations forces into Yemen. These sorts of

people have been in and out of there in recent years as training

team members or in liaison roles in relation to some of those drone

strikes. But the sort of option that is now being looked at is the

sort of option that would give them a strike option against the Al-

Qaeda leadership, able to mount the kind of operations we have seen in

Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years. What is the threat? It is

interesting, there seems to have been a whole tiered bit of

intelligence reporting from across the region, tiered levels, if you

like, of different types of intelligence coming in, being

assessed in different place. We know that the Americans across the

region have basically shut up shop with embassies in 19 countries.

Right the way from Tripoli over on the west of that map in Libya to

Muscat in the east, Sana'a, Kay row, ma -- Cairo, major stations. It

comes from chatter, Ramadan at the end, and Muslim countries may want

to do actual attacks and protests on American interests. There is the

much more specific stuff about Aden and Sana'a, we know from the New

York Times report that they intercepted conversations between

Ayman al-Zawahiri, the leader of Al-Qaeda, and Tony Way, the

competent atrb and the competent affiliate of Al-Qaeda. It would be

range to say you were listening to the phone calls if that was the

method you were using. Others say it was electronic communication, a

little vague there. There is another level of intelligence

reporting down at the ground level in Sana'a, we know for example from

the Yemeni Interior Ministry that they have tracked Al-Qaeda

militants coming into Sana'a ready to mount attacks on western

interests there. Also things hotting up in the country with a

further drone strike north of the apple in the Marib province, said

to have killed four people, including two on the Yemeni 25 most

wanted list. Also there has been US manned aircraft over the country.

Is the UK's assessment of the risk the same as the US? It seems less

stark. People in Whitehall argue that the Americans may be taking no

chances because of what happened in September when they lost an

ambassador. The UK's view is not to get involved with the drone strikes

and with the direct action-type forces.

Let as talk now to Conservative MP, Rory Stewart, who recently returned

from Yemen. And dword Gordon director of planning during the

George W Bush era and now a risk consultant. David Gordon, let me

ask you for your reaction to the fact that American Special Forces

are readying for deployment? think here that what the Americans

are getting ready for is the possibility of a new type of Al-

Qaeda attack, based more on what happened in Benghazi than on the

traditional purely terrorist attack that you have an instantaneous

event, it has happened, something very, very big blows up. In

Benghazi as we saw there was this massing of extremists and militants

attacking a number of targets. I think that's what Special Forces

are being readied to protect and go directed against. Of course we

don't really know exactly what the threat is here? Rory Stewart, is it

a good idea? Is it a good idea to withdraw British diplomats. Is it a

good idea to get the special fores ready for deployment? I think we

need to understand what this threat is. In that I really agree with

David, we are really moving in the dark here. Unless we actually know

what the threat is it is very difficult to understand. It is very

unusual to have a situation where you would remove all your British

diplomats out of a country. Normally in somewhere like Iraq and

Afghanistan where there are very severe threats or even Yemen where

we have had bad threats for a few years, you look down the embassy

and trust the embassy defences to keep people out. I suspect there

must be something very strange going on here in the nature of the

threat. Meaning what?It must be something where they must guess and

maybe David's right the Benghazi analogy is the right one, that the

traditional defences of the embassy would not be enough to keep out the

threat. Mr Gordon, are you surprised that US intelligence

released such specific details about intercepting the

communications between these two senior Al-Qaeda leaders? Well, I

think part of the intent here was prevention, to say we know what you

are up to, you better not do this. It is a bit unusual, but I think

that this is part of this is for whatever reason is there is a

chance that the terrorists know we know they are about to do something

they may not do it. Can I also say we need to distinguish the

terrorist threats from what has been happening in Yemen, that has

been much more positive in the last two years than anyone expected. It

is surprising now we find ourselves looking at Yemen in this way. If

you look at all the negotiation happening, people predicted civil

war, they predicted chaos, actually things have been much better

recently. Do you really think so? The problem of Yemen and Al-Qaeda

operatives there has been around for a number of years, hasn't it?

It has, but if you go back a year or 18 months, Al-Qaeda were holding

territory in Yemen. That was gotten rid of, they no longer hold the

territory. There was going to be huge problems between seperatists

in the south and groups in the north, it didn't really materialise.

Yemen has been more peaceful than people feared. Is that how it has

been seen in Washington? I think Yemen is still seen as being the

territory for a very capable Al- Qaeda group. But I think Rory is

right that in terms of how people were thinking about Yemen a year or

two ago, it was quite a bit more negative than what we have seen.

Look, I think what we may be seeing here is Al-Qaeda leadership in

Afghanistan and Pakistan urging the Al-Qaeda affiliates in the Middle

East, in North Africa, in the Levant, to do something against a

western target. Because in effect the centre piece of the Al-Qaeda

resurgence in this part of the world has been in Syria. What they

have really been doing here is fighting against Assad and

Hezbollah. I think what Al-Zawahiri is trying to say here is, yes it is

OK to become domestically focused on the near enemy, but don't lose

sight of the ultimate target of Al- Qaeda and that is the west and we

need to do something to show that we are still a form mid-able anti-

western organisation. -- Formidable anti-western

organisation. How should the west deal with that? We need to deal

cautiously. What I mean by this is we mustn't upset a lot of the

progress that has been made in Yemen. In the long run the way to

deal with a terrorist threat in Yemen is to get stability in that

country. That stability is painfully getting there. It has

been getting there because we managed to hold Russia and China

and the United States and France and Britain together with the whole

gulf operation council. Very unusual to have all these countries

co-operating. What we want to avoid is an anti-terrorist strategy that

begins to disrupt the stability that is beginning to emerge. Let's

hope that whatever this is we are going to get back to diplomatic

operations, so we will be able to reopen these embassies. No more

drones? Drone strikes will continue in Yemen. Would you like them to

stop? Sorry?Would you like them to stop? Am I in favour of drone

strikes? I'm not, for different reasons I'm not a great fan of

drone strikes, I think we can expect them to continue in Yemen

for the foreseeable future. It is clear the US thinks Yemen is

the new frontline in the war with Al-Qaeda, which is why they have

been sending as many drones there as they have to Pakistan and

Afghanistan. Strikes by drone aircraft have wiped out a whole

generation of Al-Qaeda's leadership. But is the use of them creating as

many enemies as they are killing? We have been to Zinjibar in

southern Yemen. The report contains some disturbing images.

We're heading into Zinjibar in southern Yemen. For years Al-Qaeda

in the Arabian Peninsula, or AQAP, have planned attacks from this part

of the country. There have been Yemeni army operations on the

ground, American drone strikes from the air, and repeated Al-Qaeda

counter strikes. This is a town under siege. On the streets we can

find little public support for Al- Qaeda. But plenty of anger over the

drones that target AQAP. What do you blame for the retruction of

Winning the support of people like this is crucial in America's fight

against extremism. The people here fear US drones as much as they fear

Mohhamed Bagash and his two children were outside a health

clinic when it was hit by an American strike. They ran to a

school and hid in the basement, He carried his children out, his

son survived but his eight-year-old daughter bled to death. 15

eyewitnesses reported seeing a drone hovering in the air, and two

President Obama has said that drone strikes kill far fewer civilians

than conventional bombing or ground operations. In the capital, Sana'a,

I have come to meet one of the most pro--American voices in Yemen.

Farea Al-Muslimi runs a pro- democracy organisation. He thinks

the drone war is playing right into Al-Qaeda's hands.

I think the drones have been one of the effective tools for Al-Qaeda in

Yemen. A big part of power for Al- Qaeda at the moment is to convince

Yemenis that they are in a war with Yemen and they are attacking the

sovereignty. One of the biggest mistakes he says is the way that

the US deals with civilian casualties. You are killing

civilians for no need and you are not even going to say sorry or

admit it or issue apology or pay compensation. Last September Ahmed

was working in the fields outside the town, his father, mother and

sister had gone to visit the local health clinic. It was 3.00pm when

he heard a buzzing noise in the sky, He jumped on his motorbike to see

what had happened, when he got there he found that two missiles

This footage was given to us by a local journalist. It is too

gruesome to show in full. The truck was packed with passengers coming

back from the market. The target was probably a local Al-Qaeda

leader, seen travelling on the same stretch of road. He got away, but

13 people were incinerated. The few people that survived were taken to

the local clinic, they report seeing at least one drone and two

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 65 seconds

In an off the record quote, given to a US newspaper, US officials did

concede it was an American strike. But there has been no American

acknowledgement or apology to the families of the 13 victims in Yemen.

What does your community think, who do they blame for this? What would

you say to the people who ordered this strike? The Yemeni Government

has promised an investigation into the attack. But no-one we spoke to

has seen any evidence of an inquiry. One group that does claim to offer

justice and redress is Al-Qaeda. We have heard many reports of Al-

Qaeda appearing after air strikes offering compensation and

increasing recruitment. Al-Qaeda have stepped in to help rebuild

homes, they provide funeral costs and offer financial support to the

families of those killed and injured. They also pressure the

relatives of those killed to join up to gain revenge. It is clear

that even when they lose active members, Al-Qaeda use these strikes

as an opportunity to recruit many more.

President Obama has said there is little chance of capturing

militants, Yemen is too weak. The state's reach too limited. He says

sometimes the only option is to kill.

But here many argue suspects can be caught, and they accuse the United

States of extra judicial execution. Anwar al-Awlaki was chief

propagandaist for AQAP, a Yemeni- American, he called for attacks on

American targets. He had close ties to the underwear bomber who tried

to explode a bomb in an aeroplane over Detroit in 2009. I'm on the

way to meet Mr Al-Awlaki's father. He says he was negotiating a deal

that would have seen his son stand trial, instead his son was killed

by an air strike. But your son was preaching hate and himself had

praised attacks on America? Even if he made some of those sermons that

could be classified as hate sermons, I don't think it is right for the

United States to go and kill him. But he is accused of being involved

in the airliner plot? Legally these are only allegations. They have not

been proven in a court of law. I don't know that in any court that

those allegations were proven against my son. If there are any

allegations against my son the United States Government could have

done something else going to court, but they didn't do that, they went

ahead and killed him. Mr Al-Awlaki said the ideology that consumed his

son is now taking many more. There were maybe 300 people who were in

Al-Qaeda. Now we are talking about thousands of people, all over Yemen.

We asked an interview with the US Ambassador in Yemen, our request

was declined. The Yemeni Foreign Minister did agree to an interview.

We began by asking whether America's targeting of Yemenis in

Yemen a threat to the country's sovereignty. I think sovereignty is

in danger if it is done without the approval of the Government. If it

is done with the approval of the Government and for the interests of

the Yemeni people and their fight against terrorism, I don't think

this applies. But it is making people angry?

know, it make everybody angry to see drones coming and hitting

targets in Yemen. And killing civilians? This is accidental, they

are not targeting. Innocent people get killed, unfortunately. Every

Yemeni we have spoken to said target strikes acted as a useful

recruitment tool for them? I have heard this argument, there might be

some truth in it. But I think the fact is that if your targets are

Al-Qaeda leaders and if they are in dangering the security of your

country, there is no alternative. The future of this conflict will

depend on whether America can convince Yemenis that it is on

their side. Every night in the back streets,

young kids get together for a game of football. But growing up in

Yemen is hard. Their prospects are bleak. Corruption is endemic,

Yemenis are in poverty. It will take more than this to get rid of

Al-Qaeda. The US provides hundreds of thousands of dollars in aid to

Yemen. But the noise from targeted strikes is drowning out other

progress. And whilst America continues to decimate Al-Qaeda from

the sky, opposition in the streets is growing. At ground level winning

in Yemen is harder than it look. You can see more of that reporting

from Yemen on Our World on the news channel this weekend.

For avid economy watchers in this country there have been several

sightings of a rare breed in the last few days, good news and quite

a lot of it. Sales up, house prices up, even manufacturing up, for some

it is enough to declare bomb times and break open the champagne. With

most people still worse off than before the crash, so this recovery

be like the British summer, unexpected, much celebrated and

short lived. We have been finding out.

The sun is out, the bars are open. The economy, like this cocktail, is

exhibiting qualities of fire on top of ice. Growth amid Austerry, and

in ever-larger dollop, led -- what matters is whether economic policy

can stain this growth, and that depends on what is causing it.

Today official figures showed a marked upturn in manufacturing, it

grew by 1.9% in May and June. There has been a rise in the all-

important service sector, that makes up two thirds of the economy.

It is now growing faster than at any time through 2006. That has got

economists rapidly remixing their GDP predictions. At the moment the

good news just keeps on coming, it looks like maybe some sort of

momentum is building in the economy. Some people have talked about the

economy reaching escape velocity. Where the recovery becomes self-

Steyning. I think that is maybe a bit over -- self sustaining, I

think that is maybe a bit over the stop. Things are on a firmer

footing than a few months ago. you dig into the details, there the

problems start? The signs are all the bonhomie is being driven by

lower saving and easier borrowing. If that is true and inflation takes

off then the Governor of the Bank of England, Jay Carney, will be

forced, or come under -- Mark Carney, will be forced to or come

under pressure to raise interest rates. That is something he wishes

to put off for as long as possible. In the first quarter we saw the

savings ratio lower than for a long time. That poses dangers for the

medium-to-long-term, first of all it may not be sustainable, and as a

country we need to save more not less. Mark Carney gets the first

taste of the limelight, the word is he will give a clear signal to keep

interest rates low for a period. Something that did work in the US.

If he fixes the rate too long and inflation eats up people's wages

that could choke off the recovery, again. I think he will press ahead

tomorrow with commit to go keep interest rates low for a long time

until for example unemployment comes down to a certain rate. Some

people think he doesn't need to do that any more, but the economy is

picking up momentum. I think now is the time to keep interest rates low

so people don't expect a rise and that snuffs out the recovery

finally getting going. The bank also has to use its muscle to

squash any new housing bubble. That has never been done before. There

is no free lunch here. It is clearly a risk that if the governor

guarantees interest rates will stay at zero for a very long time that

does stoke up bubbles and risks eroding the credibility of monetary

policy. It is a risk, but the risk of the other way that interest

rates shoot up and choke off the recovery is probably going to be

the determining factor here. Even if we do achieve lift-off, this

chart shows how far we have to go. It logs the output of all the UK's

productive industries, and shows we are nowhere near output at the peak.

It is the rate of recovery, however temporary, that is politically

important. For the past three years the political climate has been

decidedly non-but colic, with the politicians -- non-bucolic,

politicians aware that the buzz in London is not created elsewhere.

Now economic growth is rising and spreading, you are beginning to

hear two words you never thought you might in the same sentence,

that is "autumn" and "election". Yes it is uneven and patchy growth,

and if wages don't start to rise yes it will be hard to sustain. But

it is starting to alter the political arithmetic.

We talk to Allister Heath, the editor of City AM, and Kate Barker

an economist and former member of the Monetary Policy Committee. How

real is this, how tangible this recovery? The data we have had over

the past couple of months has really been a lot stronger. It

feels as though both business and consumers are starting to get some

confidence back. That has been very badly lacking in the economy. I

think this is good news. We have to be careful, we are coming are from

a very long period of a very long depression. Output is still more

than 3% lower than it was in 2008. It is a long way from a normal

economy. In the piece we had know we talked about low savings rates

and impaired banking sector. There is a long way to go before we hit

something that feels normal. Despite the figures people are

really struggling?. People are still getting poorer and wages are

not going up as much as inflation. People are substantially poorer

than a few years ago. I'm worried about this growth. It is the wrong

kind of growth. It is growth fuelled once again by excessive

consumer spending rather than increasing the production for the

economy. We are not producing more or exporting more, we are spending

more. What are we using to spend, we haven't got the wages or cash?

No, so people are dipping into their savings and also the

Government is fuelling increased borrowing and trying to stimulate

the mortgage market is subsidising credit, is subsidising mortgages.

That is quite a dangerous route, feel we have not really learned the

lessons of the past. The economy is not being rebalanced. Yes it has

grown, yes the news is good, and yes probably GDP will go up by much

more than anybody thought this year. I don't really think it is

sustainable in terms it is not high-quality growth or the growth

we need to get out of the bubble we have seen for the last few years.

The Governor of the Bank of England is expected to know tomorrow what

the base rate will be. For a considerable period of time this

called "forward guidance"? I don't know about this being the right

sort of recovery. I don't think it is something that is started with

consumer spending, you have to start somewhere. That will bring

the production along with it. We won't produce if there is no demand,

it is difficult to export at the moment. We have to look to the

domestic consumer to get that back. What is the governor doing? We

start to get people talking about interest rates going up. What he

has to do tomorrow is to try to tell with us what are the

circumstances in which the bank is going to start to put interest

rates up, to try to stop people speculating month by month that is

what is going to happen. He has quite a difficult job. I have been

on the committee. The other eight members are pretty feisty and have

quite different views. He isn't just going to give his views but

the views of the committee. I think he will try to say to the public

that they will keep bank rates low for some time, until unemployment

is falling and wages picking up. If we don't see wages pick up we are

not on our way back to recovery. What if he and the rest of the

committee decide they need to pick up the base rate because inflation

starts to shoot up and people have taken out mortgage, loans and so on

and so forth, based on the fact that the base rate will stay low

for a considerable period of time. It is a dangerous promise to be

waiting at the moment. With the economy starting to grow we will

start seeing inflationary pressures. What about the principle first of

all? The principle of trying to say, look, I'm not going to put up rates

unless something happens, unemployment falls or the economy

starts to grow faster. That is fine. The problem is, at a time like now

it is hard to predict anything like this. He's going to promise the

wrong thing. I don't think now is the time for extended period of low

interest rates. Quite the contrary. 0.5 interest rates in this country,

a crisis level of interest rates, an emergency level of interest

rates. We are no longer in the emergency situation. The economy is

growing. You have retail sales going up, manufacturing, you have

all the good figures coming out of the economy and we shouldn't be

talking about keeping rates low for another six months. You would put

the base rate up by how much? quarter or half a point. For what

purpose? First to send a symbolic signal to show the economy is

recovering and the bank is more confident and rates should go up.

It is a pro-growth move. To start warning people rates will go up

more as the economy continues to grow and they need to get their

finances in order, and they need to reduce borrowing and rates starting

to up properly. Do we need that warning? I disagree with that.

Firstly, I think if we started to put rates up a little bit, there is

a big risk that markets would get carried away push the yield up, it

will affect money for the long-term for companies. I don't agree with

the proposition that once rate go up they have to go up a long way.

In terms of bank rate we know, of course, that other rate, the rates

people are borrowing at are well above 0.5 indeed. It has been very

difficult to get rates as low as we would have liked. I don't think

they need to go up a long way in the next few years. I wouldn't want

to start warning people of thated today.

Patient safety should be the English NHS's top priority. That

was the message today from no less than a former healthcare adviser to

Barack Obama. In the wake of needless suffering in some of our

hospital, the Government asked Professor Don Berwick to assess

what had gone wrong. His review spoke of a zero-harm culture, tried

in Scotland, and a new criminal offence of willful misconduct he

doesn't seem the need to prosecute health workers who fail to report

mistakes. He doesn't also want In the two-and-a-half thousand

years since the hippocratic oath was written, healthcare has changed

immeasurably. But the tenet of the oath remain the same. And yet, in

the 21st century, in spite of all the developments that should have

made looking after patients safer, many more than expected still die

under NHS care. Today one of the world's leading experts on patient

safety published his plans to create a culture of called "zero-

harm" in the NHS. One of Professor Don Berwick's findings is NHS staff

are not to blame. He says in the vast majority of cases it is the

systems, procedure, conditions, the environment and constraints they

face that lead to patient safety problems.

His recommendations include that staffing numbers should be adequate

and decided locally. He did not recommend minimum staffing levels.

Criminal sanctions should apply to reckless and willful neglect or

mistreatment of patients. But that unintended errors must not be

criminalised. Staff should speak up when things go wrong. But there

should be no blame culture. More simple regulation with an

independent review by the end of 2017.

While patient and nursing groups welcome the report, they say

opportunities have been missed. doesn't go far enough. We know from

evidence, from countries like Australia, and from the United

States, California by way of example, staffing level are decreed

in law. Organisation are not permitted to go below the minimum.

Where we have had problems in some parts of the NHS, it has often been

the case that you had far too few people on frontline doing the job.

We believe at some stage by law minimum staffing levels would be

set. We think that is in everyone's interest. My charity here is on a

daily basis are hearing horrendous stories about what has gone wrong

in the NHS. That hasn't gone away. This report might be a small step

in getting the patient safety, culture and communication needs

that we have. It can only work to complement the report about Mid-

Staffordshire. That report made 290 recommendations which is when

patient safety really came to the fore. In the cake of that inquiry,

England's Medical Director, Sir Bruce Keogh, investigated 14 NHS

Trusts in England, 11 have been placed in special measures. While

those reports looked at specific trusts, this review is welcomed by

some as encouraging culture change across the NHS. Those serious

incidents of disastrous care are wrong, thankfully. Never the less

the whole system could do a lot better to focus more on patient

safety. This report was taking that system-level view, with a range of

recommendations, right the way from staff in the NHS through to

Government. How you can achieve that sort of change. But changing

the culture of a huge organisation like the NHS is not something that

will happen quickly. Meanwhile today the medical production

society found three-quarters of sunnor doctors they surveyed said

they did not have enough time to give their patients the care they

require. Earlier I went to the Department of Health to speak to

Professor Berwick. Can I ask you first of all about the structure of

the NHS, huge bureaucratic organisation, over one million

employees thousands of managers. From your experience of it, do you

think it is the right structure to deliver safe patient care? There is

probably no-one right structure, but it is a promising structure to

do it T you have central accountability, the ability to

deploy resources and enormous possibility for learning. The NHS

is big enough anywhere a problem develops somebody else on the

system may have solved. It may be a weakness but it is its greatest

strength. Overly bureaucratic? There is that in all agencies, and

we experiment with deferred authority and oscillating. I think

there is a sense that a lot of the important things that need to

happen will happen in the shortend, in the hospitals, Trusts and

regions, that is a productive direction. If one of your relatives

had died from neglect in one of the hospitals in England in the last

few years. You might justifiably want to blame someone? The human

reaction to the strategy we saw at Mid-Staffordshire or something gone

wrong is. It is anger, fear, remorse, looking for someone to

blame, that is totally human. You would feel the same. Anything wrong

with that. Nothing wrong with it, it just won't work. The way out of

the trouble is really through a different approach. Hold on a

minute, that wasn't ip tensional we didn't do it on purpose --

intentional, we didn't do it on purpose, how can we stop it

happening to anyone else again. We say it in a report that the only

suitable homage to the people who suffered in mid-faf Fordshire is

data, learning and improvement. You never, ever get to safety through

anger and blame. You get there through learning, curiosity and

commitment. What about the relatives who might want to hold

someone accountable? Tremendous empathy for them. I understand how

they would be angry, I would be too. The way to respond is to say look,

we are going to make this better, we together will come together and

we will make this service better and better and better in honour of

your injured relative. It is the only way we can do that really

respects them. If we choose a different path, the path of anger

or recrimination, you don't get there. What will happen is people

will hide the data, they will run and hide.

Because of the no-blame culture that you want to see in the NHS, is

that why you have rejected what Francis recommended, which was this

legal requirement for health staff to admit mistakes or report

failings? I see it is a balancing act, we may have moved the balance

to a different place. We do, for example, have in it a very small

call for what would happen infrequently, the prosecution of

people who willfully come close. There is respect to a duty or to

disclose, that is a tricky business. You really can't require people to

talk. It doesn't work. They will hide and become frightened. So we

shyed away from a duty of reporting for everyone for everything. There

is some strong language there about the absolute requirement that

patients be told when something seriously goes wrong and that

should be expected as a prove fgsal duty and owned by -- professional

duty and owned by managers. Can you see a situation where a prosecution

might be inappropriate? Sabotage when there is someone of criminal

intent who is stealing mediciness and substituting. Do we need new

laepblgslation? I'm not British -- Legislation? I'm not sure but the

advisory group felt better reformed in me and some introduction of the

statutory requirement would go some way. In mid-staffs the problem was

not the absence of some statute, it was a cultural phenomenon where

people didn't have the skills to look at data, and a vicious cycle

began leading to opaqueness and injury. No new law would have

prevended Mid-Staffordshire. In the past you have -- We vented Mid-

Staffordshire. You described yourself as romantic about England

would you confess that now? It is a nation committed to universality

and as a basic human right. You have chosen to do it with tax

support and publicly funded. You have done it in a way that is free

at the point of service. It is committed to equity. It is an

amazing investment. I'm still a constant fan of that endeavour.

are still romantic about it? still think it is ra great human

endeavour. If look at Mid- Staffordshire for a minute, take a

step back, what happened here was something went badly wrong. That

could happen anywhere. It went badly wrong. So many other nations

and places nothing would have happened, something went badly

wrong much you wouldn't have a mechanism here, the country is

mobilised journalism, the fo., my point is you can act because you

have a -- can take it and execute it. It is a shame it has to be

triggered by tragedy but you can act on it and improve things. I

think that will happen. That's all for tonight. We will be back

tomorrow. Until then, have a good tomorrow. Until then, have a good

evening. . Wednesday starts with rain in

Scotland, that will break up into showers during the day. Some cloud

building as the day goes on, but the rain is hard to find the one or

two showers popping up in Northern Ireland, a scattering of showers

for the afternoon in Scotland. Sunnier spells inDean. Inamongst

those hef and slow moving, but most will avoid them. As we look to

northern England you have cloud, sunny spells, the Midlands too.

There will be more cloud compared with today. The far south-east for

coastal counties, there may be a shower or thunder storm hopping

across the channel. A lower risk they will push inland.

The south west of England and for Wales, yes, the odd stray shower,