14/08/2013 Newsnight


14/08/2013

With Jeremy Paxman. Security forces kill hundreds in Egypt - what next for the Muslim Brotherhood? And is pornography making people worse?


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Transcript


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Egyptian security forces claim be to be safeguarding the state. We'll

:00:12.:00:18.

hear live from Cairo and ask the Foreign Office if it's on the side

:00:18.:00:27.

of the army or the Muslim Brotherhood. Also tonight: Here, in

:00:27.:00:32.

the privacy of our homes, very large numbers of us are watching

:00:32.:00:39.

pornography. Make me believe it. There is something absurd about

:00:39.:00:45.

porn, yet it is consumed in deadly seriousness. How is it changing and

:00:45.:00:50.

what is it doing to us and the way we and our children think and act?

:00:50.:01:00.
:01:00.:01:01.

We have porn enthusiasts, producers and critics with us. It is a long

:01:01.:01:05.

way short of civil war, but in some respects what's happening in the

:01:05.:01:08.

most important country in the Arab world begins to look as if it has

:01:08.:01:13.

the potential to go that way. The internationally respected

:01:13.:01:16.

Vice-President, Mohamed El Baradei, walked out of the government today

:01:16.:01:21.

in protest at the bloodshed by Egyptian forces in trying to clear

:01:21.:01:24.

supporters of the ousted former President from the streets. The

:01:24.:01:29.

health ministry says nearly 150 people have been killed and over

:01:29.:01:35.

1,400 injured. Let us go to Cairo now and talk to the BBC's Middle

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East editor, Jeremy Bowen. What is the mood in Cairo tonight, Jeremy?

:01:41.:01:46.

have driven through the city in the last hour or so. I can tell you

:01:46.:01:50.

there is a curfew, but people are moving around. As you get closer

:01:50.:01:54.

into the centre there are more military roadblocks. Journalists are

:01:54.:01:59.

able to move around in the area. There is a dispensation for us. I

:01:59.:02:03.

think that the thing about Egypt at the moment is that it's highly

:02:03.:02:07.

divided, it's very polarised, that is something which is a huge

:02:08.:02:12.

problem, not just for now, but for the future. Both sides are saying

:02:12.:02:17.

that the future of Egypt is at stake. Both sides are right. They

:02:18.:02:21.

have very different conceptions of what that future needs to be.

:02:21.:02:29.

there an obvious way out? No, there isn't. What they need to do is try

:02:29.:02:34.

to get together and try and decide the way forward and try and decide

:02:34.:02:39.

on some kind of nation national consensus. I don't see how they do

:02:39.:02:43.

that when people are being killed on the streets. What we are seeing at

:02:43.:02:47.

the moment is a consequence of the winner takes all politics of Egypt

:02:47.:02:51.

in the last couple of years. President Morsi was in offers,

:02:51.:02:55.

before he was ousted said he would govern for all Egyptians, but really

:02:55.:03:00.

governed for his supporters. The army and their supporters say they

:03:00.:03:04.

want to restore democracy. They have acted with such ferocity that, you

:03:05.:03:08.

know, they clearly want to remove the Muslim Brotherhood as a

:03:08.:03:15.

political force in the country. That has been tried before in the 40s and

:03:15.:03:19.

the 50s when they were, 40s the Muslim Brotherhood had a campaign of

:03:19.:03:24.

violence, in the 50s NASA pretty much destroyed their network. It

:03:24.:03:30.

took them a long time to recover. Out of all that came not just the

:03:30.:03:35.

Muslim Brotherhood, which has been governing in Egypt, the extreme

:03:35.:03:39.

jihadist ideologies that culminated in Al-Qaeda. What we are seeing at

:03:39.:03:42.

the moment, I think, will really shape the way things go in Egypt

:03:42.:03:46.

over the next generation. If it is shaping Egypt, it will help to shape

:03:46.:03:49.

the Middle East as well. Jeremy, thank you very much. With the story

:03:49.:03:54.

of today's events in Cairo and where it leaves Egypt's slow struggle

:03:54.:04:02.

towards becoming a functioning democracy Tim Whewell. Today was the

:04:02.:04:08.

day pa the patients of Egypt's new military backed authorities snapped.

:04:08.:04:13.

From 7.00 am interior ministry forces moved in with bulldozers to

:04:13.:04:17.

demolish the protest camp set up six weeks ago by supporters of the

:04:17.:04:22.

deposed Islamist President, Mohamed Morsi. There were tanks with special

:04:22.:04:32.
:04:32.:04:41.

vehicles in the streets around the main camp in western Cairo, but

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thick clouds of black smoke hid much of what happened beyond. Earlier in

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the day, the security forces insisted they were only using

:04:52.:04:56.

teargas, but many witnesses reported seeing them fire live bullets at

:04:56.:05:06.
:05:06.:05:11.

protesters. People are being make-shift field hospitals on Rabaa

:05:11.:05:15.

al-Adawiya Square, the Brotherhood claims thousands have been killed.

:05:15.:05:18.

The official death toll was much lower, it rose throughout the day.

:05:18.:05:25.

By late evening, the Health Ministry gave a total of 149 dead, among them

:05:25.:05:28.

a British cameraman for Sky News, Mick Dean. They moved in and from

:05:28.:05:33.

the moment that they moved in, they started using teargas and shooting

:05:33.:05:37.

very quickly. This was a use of force from the very beginning to

:05:37.:05:42.

break up the sit-in. I think the decision was also taken to move in

:05:43.:05:48.

with maximum force and this riot police does not know how to use

:05:48.:05:53.

force proportionally, do not know how to use live ammunition in a

:05:53.:05:57.

legal manner which is only targeting individuals who present a risk to

:05:57.:06:00.

the lives of the security forces. It's in the name of these people

:06:00.:06:05.

that the riot police have acted against the Brotherhood. The vast

:06:05.:06:11.

crowds that filled Tahrir Square and other Egyptian streets six weeks ago

:06:11.:06:14.

demanding the departure of Mohamed Morsi even though he was

:06:14.:06:19.

democratically-elected a year before. Since his over throw the new

:06:19.:06:24.

authorities installed by the army have launched a propaganda museum

:06:24.:06:26.

that have convinced many the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist

:06:26.:06:30.

organisation. State television showed footage of protesters firing

:06:30.:06:34.

on security forces. The authorities say guns and ammunition were found

:06:34.:06:44.
:06:44.:07:09.

not been proved they indulged in any terrorism. It was the same firm line

:07:09.:07:15.

tonight from the Interior Minister. TRANSLATION: There is plans. There

:07:15.:07:19.

will be plans we will face arms with arms. There won't be any

:07:20.:07:24.

self-restraint from now on. Not all in the anti-Morsi camp believed that

:07:24.:07:28.

today's bloodshed was justified. One of the Egypt's most respected

:07:28.:07:33.

politicians, Mohamed El Baradei, prominent in the 2011 revolution,

:07:33.:07:38.

resigned as interim Vice-President today in protest. The United States,

:07:38.:07:42.

which gives the Egyptian military $1.5 billion a year, was equally

:07:42.:07:48.

shocked. Today's events are deplorable and they run counter to

:07:49.:07:54.

Egyptian aspirations for peace, inclusion and genuine democracy.

:07:54.:07:59.

Egyptians inside and outside of the government need to take a step back.

:07:59.:08:06.

They need to calm the situation. clashes involving Morsi supporters

:08:06.:08:09.

broke out today in the second city, Alexandria, and elsewhere in the

:08:09.:08:14.

country, the chances of reconciliation seem slim. This sort

:08:14.:08:18.

of violence will provide some justification, if you like, for the

:08:18.:08:24.

army to get more involved in the name of restoring security. That

:08:24.:08:31.

might be enough to keep the army popular, but I don't think they have

:08:31.:08:36.

that long to go on with this and retain international support.

:08:36.:08:43.

Tonight, the remains of the main Brotherhood camp was still ablaze as

:08:43.:08:47.

the authorities imposed a month-long state of emergency. Many will

:08:47.:08:50.

conclude that the security forces, acting in the name of the

:08:50.:08:53.

revolution, have brought Egypt back dangerously close to how it was

:08:53.:08:58.

under the old dictatorship. Here now is the Foreign Office Minister,

:08:58.:09:00.

Alistair Burt. I take it the British government condemns what happened

:09:00.:09:04.

today? Yes, the Foreign Secretary put out a statement this morning

:09:04.:09:09.

condemning the use of force to clear the protests. We deeply regretted

:09:09.:09:13.

the failure of the attempts at compromise over the past month. The

:09:13.:09:16.

tran di-is what happened today could have been avoided. Does the British

:09:16.:09:20.

government consider the government in Egypt legitimate? We work with

:09:20.:09:25.

it. It clearly has a degree of authority. It can't be denied that

:09:25.:09:29.

the population in Egypt is deeply polarised, there are millions of

:09:29.:09:33.

people who support the government. Equally, there are large numbers who

:09:33.:09:36.

do not. We work - we have a relationship with the state, not a

:09:36.:09:40.

government. We consider it a legitimate government? Yes, we

:09:40.:09:45.

probably do in that it is operating there, but it has set a timetable

:09:45.:09:49.

for a transition to democracy. We have said that the military should

:09:49.:09:53.

not be intervening in a democratic situation. In a sense, we are where

:09:53.:09:56.

we are. Mohamed El Baradei says the only people who will benefit from

:09:56.:10:01.

today's action are terrorists and extremists? Do you share that view?

:10:01.:10:06.

He has a serious point. The danger of making it clear to those who have

:10:06.:10:11.

a belief in moderate political Islam they should not be taking part in

:10:11.:10:14.

the political process is of course they feel excluded and there are

:10:14.:10:19.

risks. What we don't know is whether or not what will follow, what has

:10:19.:10:22.

happened today, will be an attempt to bring in the Muslim Brotherhood

:10:22.:10:26.

or bring them back into political process. If there is an attempt to

:10:27.:10:30.

exclude them completely Mr El Baradei's comments are highly

:10:30.:10:33.

pertinent. Do you think there is a danger of civil war in Egypt?

:10:33.:10:38.

think it would be wrong from this distance to say that something like

:10:38.:10:43.

that is likely to happen. Clearly, the situation is exceptionally

:10:43.:10:48.

polarised and people are deeply split. What we have seen is the

:10:48.:10:53.

violence encouraged today has -- incurred today has moved elsewhere.

:10:53.:10:55.

We will plead with all those with responsibilities to be restrained,

:10:55.:11:01.

to ease the violence down. Could it, it could, but I think we are some

:11:01.:11:06.

distance away from that yet. have been out there? Yes, recently.

:11:06.:11:10.

Have you spoken to the Muslim Brotherhood? Yes.Have you spoken to

:11:10.:11:14.

the army? Does it seem like a stable place? It's a deeply fractured

:11:14.:11:17.

place. You have the Muslim Brotherhood who feel that power has

:11:17.:11:22.

been unfairly ripped from them. You have a population supporting a

:11:22.:11:25.

military intervention, who believe that order was restored from a

:11:25.:11:30.

failing government. What you don't have is an express of popular will

:11:30.:11:34.

through a ballot box to give a serious sense of legitmacy and a way

:11:34.:11:38.

forward. Unless there is a compromise between the two blocks

:11:38.:11:43.

the violence will probably continue. It has been six weeks since the

:11:43.:11:47.

military seized power have we decided whether a coup was staged?

:11:47.:11:51.

We haven't really. In a sense you don't need to be dancing about on

:11:51.:11:55.

the head of a pin. There has been military intervention. Has it been

:11:55.:12:00.

without popular support? No. It has had popular support. It does not

:12:01.:12:04.

have the legitmacy that a democratically-elected government

:12:04.:12:07.

would have. They came to restore order. They wanted to see a

:12:07.:12:11.

transition. What we have seen today has set back that process. What is

:12:11.:12:16.

the problem with calling it a coup? It sounds like a coup? There isn't a

:12:16.:12:21.

problem with calling a coup. If you believe coup is about a group of

:12:21.:12:24.

generals, no politicians anywhere - The military always claim, when they

:12:24.:12:29.

stage a coup they always claim to have popular support, don't they?

:12:29.:12:32.

From the millions in the street that has some backing. That isn't the

:12:32.:12:37.

point. It's where Egypt is going and whether what is happening now is in

:12:37.:12:41.

anyway contributing to a democratic future. If the political process is

:12:42.:12:46.

to be damaged by trying to drive one section of it completely away and

:12:46.:12:49.

the violence today will not have helped in that process, then you

:12:49.:12:53.

worry about where Egypt is going. What the new government have got to

:12:53.:12:57.

demonstrate is that there is a path way - Where do you think Egypt is

:12:57.:13:02.

going? I don't think at this stage, honestly tonight, anyone knows.

:13:02.:13:05.

Jeremy put it clearly in terms of a battle for the soul of Egypt. That

:13:05.:13:11.

is going on. You asked at the beginning of the titles whose side

:13:11.:13:16.

are the British government on? We are on the side of the Egyptian

:13:16.:13:19.

people. We have to support the Egyptian people p in finding a path

:13:20.:13:23.

way back to democracy that involves us in engaging with all politicians

:13:24.:13:28.

as we have been doing relentlessly over the past few weeks to prevent

:13:28.:13:31.

the tragedy that happened today. It's a tragedy that wasn't

:13:31.:13:36.

successful. Thank you very much. When did you last watch pornography?

:13:36.:13:40.

There are perhaps some adults in Britain who have never seen any.

:13:40.:13:44.

It's ubiquity or the ubiquity of access to the internet means it is

:13:44.:13:49.

in some form or other available day or night in the privacy of anyone's

:13:49.:13:57.

home. Here, sometimes for free, more often for than paying for it you can

:13:57.:14:00.

watch people you have never met doing the most intimate of things

:14:00.:14:05.

for the delectation of their viewers. What their viewers is best

:14:06.:14:09.

not thought about. What effect is all this exposure having upon us and

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upon our children? We will discuss that shortly with our assembled

:14:15.:14:25.
:14:25.:14:34.

shelve magazines, things have changed. When the internet was fast

:14:34.:14:38.

enough to carry video it's not just the scale of porn consumption that

:14:38.:14:42.

rocketed but what is in the videos is changing fast. Action.You don't

:14:43.:14:48.

need much to shoot an adult movie. For Laura Macrow, one of Britain's

:14:48.:14:53.

pop porn directors it's the car park of her studio on the edge of

:14:53.:14:59.

Birmingham. Turn around.Laura shoots for TV and for big named porn

:14:59.:15:03.

brands in America. Half the job is tailoring the content to meet

:15:03.:15:11.

specific rules and regulations. is nice. Make me believe it. Over

:15:11.:15:14.

the years it has certainly changed in terms of we have to keep it tame.

:15:14.:15:19.

We have to consider the regulatory rules, everybody has a perception as

:15:19.:15:22.

to how they see something. We can't do anything that is aggression.

:15:22.:15:27.

Anything that would be harmful to an individual. You know, so obviously

:15:27.:15:31.

sometimes in adult movies that has appeared to be the case. It's

:15:31.:15:35.

actually not. Everything is consensual and above board. Large

:15:35.:15:39.

amounts of porn are now available free because of the so-called tube

:15:39.:15:44.

sites where, with no age warnings, you can click straight through to

:15:44.:15:48.

hardcore video and that is not regulated because it is based

:15:48.:15:56.

offshore. What you do you you create a massive massively (inaudible)

:15:56.:16:01.

which is free. You get visitors coming to your website. You upsell

:16:01.:16:06.

them premium versions of that service for $20 or �20 a month

:16:06.:16:11.

whatever. It's in the past five or six years you had the ex-edges

:16:11.:16:16.

sploegs in free porn the producer cans see quickly what the consumers

:16:16.:16:22.

want and produce more of it. Research on recent content is

:16:22.:16:30.

scarce. In a 2005 study of the 60 top selling DVDs, 304 scenes were

:16:30.:16:34.

analysed 88% contained physical aggression, a woman being spanked,

:16:34.:16:42.

forced to gag or being slapped. 49% contained verbal aggression. Targets

:16:42.:16:47.

were most often depicted as liking or ignoring the aggression. The most

:16:47.:16:52.

recent evidence is anecdotal. Here is what the regulator says. It's

:16:52.:16:57.

very common place for sex scenes in modern pornography to feature women

:16:58.:17:01.

being penetrated in multiple or fillses at the same time. It's

:17:01.:17:08.

common for women to be slapped, spat a at and treated as, you know,

:17:08.:17:11.

objectives to be tested to the limits of their physical

:17:11.:17:17.

capabilities. That is pretty standard. That is not in just what

:17:17.:17:23.

we might call sado-masochism pornography? No.It's a theme in

:17:23.:17:31.

almost normal pornography? The internet has changed porn in another

:17:31.:17:41.
:17:41.:17:41.

massive way. Interaction. Victoria, student works as a webcam performer

:17:41.:17:45.

it's in the nature of the medium for the content to push boundaries

:17:46.:17:50.

towards new kinds of activity. they see what I do, or they hear me

:17:50.:17:55.

talk about it, they certainly discover certain things that they

:17:55.:17:59.

didn't know that they liked or they didn't realise were consumable to

:17:59.:18:07.

have. So I find, in that sense, what I do quite powerful and, in a

:18:07.:18:11.

positive way because I think it is helping people understanding and

:18:11.:18:14.

coming to terms with their sexuality. They come across someone

:18:14.:18:19.

like me who works in the industry I do, I list 100 things they have

:18:19.:18:25.

never heard of, that are potential for them to have Because there are

:18:25.:18:29.

thousands of women doing this kind of work in Britain alone, it's

:18:29.:18:34.

impossible for a regulator even to know what is in the content, let

:18:34.:18:41.

alone police it. Let us discover pornography with various supporters

:18:41.:18:51.
:18:51.:18:55.

and opponents of it. Is Is Anna Arrowsmith you promote these movies?

:18:55.:19:00.

There is a lot of porn out there, not being paid for. It 's a growing

:19:00.:19:10.

sector? Yes. We have our own channel now. We have dust TV, Feminist Porn

:19:10.:19:20.

Awards and Berlin Film Festival. For the mainstream stuff it's been

:19:20.:19:25.

attacked strongly. Benedict Garrett you are in this business too. How

:19:25.:19:30.

does it feel to you. Does it feel like a real growth industry? There

:19:30.:19:35.

is so much free porn out there it's challenging. Equal Equally, that

:19:35.:19:38.

forces producers to be creative in the pornography they do produce.

:19:38.:19:43.

There is a lot more pornography out there produced for women. You know,

:19:43.:19:48.

people who want to see much more detail in terms of the quality of

:19:48.:19:54.

the photography, the quality of the storyline. So because more and more

:19:54.:19:59.

are accessing pornography online, increasingly women, there are new

:19:59.:20:04.

markets pornography is trying to tap on. Do you feel anything morally

:20:04.:20:10.

reprehencible about what you do? I certainly - I don't sit here and

:20:10.:20:15.

represent (inaudible) Of course not. You do? When I perform in

:20:15.:20:20.

pornography I would not do anything I would not personally watch myself.

:20:20.:20:27.

I call what I enjoy in terms of pornography vanilla pornography. I

:20:27.:20:31.

like seeing attractive people having sex. That is generally what I like

:20:31.:20:36.

to see. Is the pattern of pornography changing as seems to be

:20:36.:20:41.

suggested? There are various kind of changes that are occurring. The big

:20:41.:20:46.

story in internet porn. In terms of production there are various stories

:20:46.:20:53.

we could focus on. There is Anna feminist porn and user generated

:20:53.:20:58.

pornography is one of the big stories. Equally, the internet

:20:58.:21:04.

hasn't closed down every form of more traditional delivery of porn.

:21:04.:21:11.

There are still magazines available to - for people to use. Also DVDs,

:21:11.:21:18.

certain kinds of DVDs have become important like parody films.

:21:18.:21:21.

suggestion we heard from the former regulator, there is more extreme

:21:21.:21:25.

stuff out there, is that true? is one of the claims that is made.

:21:25.:21:32.

Actually, it depends on how you look at the particular scenes. In the VT

:21:32.:21:36.

there was some talk about slapping of women. Well, it depends how that

:21:36.:21:43.

- what the context of that is. If that consensual spanking, does that

:21:43.:21:47.

count as violence in quite the way it seems to suggest in that piece of

:21:47.:21:51.

research? What is going on here? This is certainly something that,

:21:51.:21:55.

you know, it didn't exist at anything like its current level

:21:55.:22:02.

20/30 years ago. Is this a case of supply creating demand or what?

:22:02.:22:06.

think there is certainly more women watching porn now. A third of online

:22:06.:22:11.

con Soviet Unioners are female. It's not just women buying stuff, but

:22:11.:22:15.

allowing men - they are using it as couples. When it becomes more

:22:15.:22:19.

acceptable by women then men will become more likely to use it, but

:22:19.:22:25.

also more vocal about using it. It's a mixture of, yes, we are do doing

:22:25.:22:32.

more, but we are being honest and open about it as well. What do you

:22:32.:22:38.

think is behind it? It is getting more violent and more available to

:22:38.:22:41.

everyone. People have been saying it, it isn't a new thing. There is a

:22:41.:22:45.

lot more free porn. You can see a whole scene online, you know, not

:22:45.:22:51.

that long ago it was harder to see really long scenes. That is maybe

:22:51.:22:53.

the internet facilitating things because previously you would have to

:22:53.:22:57.

subscribe to a website. There are tube websites where people are

:22:57.:23:06.

watching porn for free and, people used to buy DVDs or VHS tapes.

:23:06.:23:10.

the whole country master baiting more or what? Well, maybe. Maybe

:23:10.:23:15.

they are more honest. People in the past, as you say, would have gone to

:23:15.:23:20.

shops to buy DVDs that would have put off a lot of people,

:23:20.:23:26.

particularly women. The idea of going to Soho and dirty men finding

:23:26.:23:31.

videos. People can explore their sexuality like never before. It has

:23:31.:23:36.

been suppressed - In the intimacy of their own home. I think what I'm

:23:36.:23:39.

seeing as part of my work in the violence against women organisation

:23:39.:23:44.

is some of the fallout from this. As you were saying there, Benedict,

:23:44.:23:47.

that some sort of material that would have been quite hard to seek

:23:47.:23:52.

out would have had quite a significant and serious

:23:52.:23:58.

consequences. I'm thinking in terms of of the violent & extreme

:23:58.:24:04.

pornography and rape pornography is available within two clicks that

:24:04.:24:08.

pref ledges of that material has certain effects. It has certain

:24:08.:24:13.

social impacts. The fact that I would have to disagree with what

:24:13.:24:17.

Clarissa was saying in terms of the different context around acts like

:24:17.:24:23.

spanking. The way that mainstream pornography frames violence against

:24:23.:24:30.

women - Why it is prolive rating in the way it is. How does it seem to

:24:30.:24:35.

you Vivienne? What is worrying is it is available to everybody whether

:24:35.:24:40.

you are looking for it. It appears that porn is looking for you as a

:24:40.:24:45.

web browser it pops up where you are not necessarily looking for it. It

:24:45.:24:50.

is hidden over the web. It requires you to click on it It does. I don't

:24:50.:24:55.

agree with this arrangement. I don't see pop-ups coming up. I don't see

:24:56.:25:01.

stuff unless I go looking for porn I don't find. It you don't find it in

:25:01.:25:04.

magazines openingly or on television. I disagree with that. I

:25:04.:25:08.

have done web searchers for something that seems innocent.

:25:08.:25:18.
:25:18.:25:18.

were you looking for? Do you want to know Yes?Georgian embroeder erred -

:25:18.:25:24.

You were inviting to look at pornography? I was. Search engines

:25:24.:25:31.

rely on what you researched before. When she argues you put the word

:25:31.:25:35.

porn in you get rape porn that is because she writes a lot and

:25:35.:25:39.

discusses about rape and stuff like that. Most people would just get

:25:39.:25:47.

mainstream, I don't know how you are getting that, we just won't ask you!

:25:47.:25:51.

Unyoung people will often look for porn because they are not getting

:25:51.:25:55.

good education. They look to find out what sex is. When you get that

:25:55.:25:59.

what you find is a particular version of sex. That is something

:25:59.:26:02.

which is a really important part of why people are searching for

:26:02.:26:05.

pornography. If they are searching because they want to watch it, that

:26:05.:26:08.

is one issue. Young people have always searched for information

:26:08.:26:13.

about sex, haven't they? Absolutely they have. It isn't a new

:26:13.:26:21.

phenomenon, it's easier to access. What we see at Brook is people

:26:21.:26:25.

having concerns and anxieties and questions - We will look at that in

:26:25.:26:31.

a moment or two. Now, there are all sorts of aspects to this. And one of

:26:31.:26:36.

the things that we will look at now is some of the consequences of

:26:36.:26:42.

exposure to porn. Consequences for relationships, for children and for

:26:42.:26:52.
:26:52.:26:56.

society as a whole. Paul Mason computer screen has become a window

:26:56.:27:00.

into a wide range of sexual activity. What is that doing to

:27:00.:27:10.
:27:10.:27:13.

people? Cindy Gallop, a woman who dates mainly young younger men set

:27:13.:27:21.

up the website Make Love Not Porn because of a change in men's

:27:21.:27:26.

behaviour she attributes to pornography. Many men said to me on

:27:26.:27:29.

their first sexual encounter with someone they were dating they found

:27:29.:27:33.

themselves being addressed with the language that you hear in porn

:27:33.:27:37.

films, which is fine if over time you have agreed you are both into

:27:37.:27:42.

that kind of thing, but can be a real shock and a very jar jarring

:27:42.:27:46.

when it happens unexpectedly the first time you go to bed together.

:27:46.:27:51.

It's illegal to provide porn to minors they do see it. Some who

:27:51.:27:57.

study it are concerned about its effects on adolescent mens. Years

:27:57.:28:05.

ago when a boy would find his father Playboy he got glimpses into women

:28:05.:28:09.

bent over smiling in a cornfield. When he gets into the internet via a

:28:09.:28:13.

smartphone, computer he is catapulted into a world of sexual

:28:13.:28:18.

cruelty. That world is available to him 24-hours a day. There is very,

:28:18.:28:22.

very little what we would call soft-core porn on the internet. That

:28:22.:28:30.

has been wiped away by the sfri. Does violent -- industry. Does

:28:30.:28:33.

violent porn cause violent behaviour? It is hard to find

:28:33.:28:37.

evidence for that. What is clearer is images that become more extreme

:28:37.:28:47.

and addiction. Paula Hall deals people -- with people with sex

:28:47.:28:54.

addiction. It's exaggerating a natural and desire to seek out

:28:54.:28:58.

attractive sexual partners. It is giving us constant endless nof elt.

:28:58.:29:05.

Our brains are becoming more and more wired towards those

:29:05.:29:10.

pornographic images than it is towards partnered sex. Adolescents

:29:10.:29:15.

are in a stage of change and pruning sometimes those other path ways for

:29:15.:29:21.

partnered sex aren't developing at all Other psychologists dispute the

:29:21.:29:26.

possibility of sex addiction. Victoria, a webcam performer, says

:29:26.:29:31.

she sees signs of addiction among her clients. It has the potential to

:29:31.:29:36.

be addictive, it's easy and it's friendly and warm. A Lott of these

:29:36.:29:39.

clients know when they log on. If I have a relationship with them over a

:29:39.:29:43.

certain amount of time, I'm going to be happy to see them and catch up

:29:43.:29:48.

with them and have a chat and see how they are. It's like seeing an

:29:48.:29:53.

old friend. They forget how much money and time they spend on me. Do

:29:53.:29:58.

I think it's damaging, yes, it's not my place to tell them to stop.

:29:58.:30:02.

British government has signalled it will require internet providers to

:30:02.:30:07.

filter out porn unless users specifically opt-in. Within the

:30:07.:30:12.

industry views on this are mixed. people want to watch porn they

:30:12.:30:17.

should opt-in to it. When people do opt-in people can't see as a bad

:30:17.:30:20.

light because if they want to look for it, they want to watch it, that

:30:20.:30:25.

is their own choice. David Cameron needs to stop trying to control

:30:25.:30:29.

people under a banner of protecting them because it's protecting nobody.

:30:29.:30:35.

It makes jobs harder and it, sort of, perpetuates the idea what is not

:30:35.:30:39.

normal is damaging. The fact remains, never before have so many

:30:39.:30:47.

men had so much access to extreme imagery and no political party is

:30:47.:30:53.

proposing to censor it outright. Let us talk about some of the effects of

:30:53.:30:59.

pornography. Julia Long what do you think it's doing the way men regard

:30:59.:31:07.

women? I was talking to my colleagues colleagues today and some

:31:07.:31:11.

of the test moanies that have come out of that work are really

:31:11.:31:17.

seriously troubling. The types of language that are used to talk about

:31:17.:31:25.

girls and their peer groups. The kinds of - in the recent office

:31:25.:31:28.

Office of the Children's Commissioner, the OCC report, one

:31:28.:31:34.

men said porn is everywhere. A 14-year-old boy involved in a

:31:34.:31:36.

multiple perpetrator rape of a 11-year-old testified it was like

:31:36.:31:42.

being in a porn film. What we are seeing is a very, very troubling set

:31:42.:31:46.

of consequences of this material being so available. I think when we

:31:46.:31:51.

talk about the impact of it, we tend to have a narrow definition of how

:31:51.:31:55.

it may or may not cause violence. We have to look at the reality for

:31:55.:31:58.

young women who are growing up having to deal with these kinds of

:31:58.:32:02.

attitudes. Doesn't that bother you? No, because the facts don't actually

:32:03.:32:07.

support that. Young people today are actually waiting longer to have sex.

:32:07.:32:14.

Young girls especially. The studies show England, North America and

:32:14.:32:17.

Australia show that violence against young people and sexual violence

:32:17.:32:21.

against them is the lowest it has ever been. Pregnancy rates are at

:32:21.:32:25.

the lowest for 30 years. Rape has been dropping since the early 80s,

:32:25.:32:35.
:32:35.:32:36.

young girls when they do - The Home Office estimates... It has stayed

:32:36.:32:43.

around the 80,000 mark. What is your experience with young people?

:32:43.:32:47.

majority distinguish between fantasy and reality if they have an adult

:32:47.:32:50.

who communicates with them, good education and good support. There is

:32:50.:32:55.

absolutely no doubt that young people are see seeing things which

:32:56.:33:03.

sometimes lead them to question and to be confused and sometimes to be

:33:03.:33:07.

inquiztive. The majority of young people do navigate their way through

:33:07.:33:12.

relationships fairly well. We have a job - one of the key things about

:33:12.:33:17.

this is, let us talk about sex and about why young people need to be -

:33:17.:33:20.

want to have sex and when they want to have sex rather than just about

:33:20.:33:24.

pornography. We still will not talk about young people and sexuality.

:33:24.:33:29.

Until we do, then we are in danger of clamping down on a particular

:33:29.:33:35.

area that seems comfortable rather than changing our culture.

:33:35.:33:38.

Andrew Symes what is your experience? Have you seen

:33:38.:33:43.

pornography? No. The church is recognising this is a problem. I

:33:44.:33:47.

want to go back to what is said about addiction. There is

:33:47.:33:49.

controversy about whether that is actually true or not. Certainly,

:33:49.:33:53.

churches are now waking up to the fact that large numbers of their

:33:53.:33:56.

members are coming forward and saying - we have a problem in that

:33:56.:34:00.

we are watching this stuff. We feel as if we are addicted to it. We

:34:00.:34:04.

can't get away from it, it is causing us shame and we don't - we

:34:04.:34:09.

don't want to do it, but we keep coming back to it again and again.

:34:09.:34:13.

These are members of the church? and clergy and ordinary members of

:34:13.:34:16.

the church. It's now people are being open about this, which is

:34:16.:34:21.

obviously a good thing, but the emphasis now is on people who

:34:21.:34:25.

actually are feeling this is a negative thing for them. Yet, they

:34:25.:34:32.

can't help themselves from going back to it. Is that in comparison to

:34:32.:34:36.

a scriptures, they feel bad because they have been set up to think that

:34:36.:34:43.

sex is bad. The feelings of negativity you have around normal

:34:43.:34:47.

adult sexuality, I was - I wasn't raised really terriblibly Catholic,

:34:47.:34:53.

I went to a Catholic primary school and went to church, for me when I

:34:53.:34:58.

realised I was gay they made it difficult. For me looking online and

:34:58.:35:01.

looking at pornography it was something of a comfort to realise

:35:01.:35:05.

I'm not a freak. There are gay people, it's OK. Also, trying to

:35:05.:35:10.

look at norm normal educational websites as well because sex

:35:10.:35:15.

education at school was not there. It was totally inadequate. Given by

:35:15.:35:18.

sixth-formers who treated it as a joke. One of the things they said,

:35:18.:35:24.

the only thing they said in relation to homosexuality, "even benders need

:35:24.:35:28.

to use condoms otherwise they will get AIDS, even though they already

:35:28.:35:38.
:35:38.:35:43.

do." I was a former Head of of (inaudible) at a school. I find it

:35:43.:35:47.

bizarre that religion criticised pornography when the amount of

:35:47.:35:52.

misery brought on this planet up until now and including now through

:35:52.:35:57.

multiple reasons also because of the shame that religion puts on sexual

:35:58.:36:01.

expression and sexual liberalism and the guilt people feel because of

:36:01.:36:05.

that, being explore masturbation and exploring different sides of their

:36:05.:36:09.

sexuality, the amount of misery put on people not to mention the deaths

:36:09.:36:12.

that people suffer in certain societies because they explore those

:36:12.:36:17.

things, is not in anyway comparable to - there is no proven negative

:36:18.:36:22.

side to pornography. There is evidence for and against. The direct

:36:22.:36:28.

effect of religions on this planet far outweigh - You could say some

:36:28.:36:31.

respects pornography can be quite effective in keeping some

:36:31.:36:36.

relationships together? Well, apparently that is what some people

:36:36.:36:42.

say, but certainly mainstream Christian teaching, from other

:36:42.:36:46.

religions as well, they are quite clear that sex is a great gift from

:36:46.:36:51.

God, it is to be used within certain boundaries. We all draw the

:36:51.:36:55.

boundaries in different ways, don't we? In different places. It's

:36:55.:37:02.

important - If you have a couple who have different levels of sexual

:37:02.:37:06.

desire and one of them chooses to use pornography and master bait, and

:37:07.:37:13.

it keeps the relationship going, that is a good thing, isn't it?

:37:13.:37:18.

think mainstream Christian teaching has always held that sexual intimacy

:37:18.:37:23.

is between a couple who are committed to each other in a

:37:23.:37:26.

monogamous relationship anything outside of that - What about the

:37:26.:37:31.

people who don't have social skills to form relationships? We are

:37:31.:37:36.

focussing on the negatives here and the possibilities of keeping not

:37:36.:37:39.

terribly great relationships on track we have a changing

:37:39.:37:43.

relationship with our bodies, with media, with sexuality now. There are

:37:43.:37:50.

plenty of people out there who are using pornography as an ajunction to

:37:50.:37:54.

their relationship. It's an important one. It may not be

:37:54.:37:57.

produced pornography but their own material theys are generating.

:37:57.:38:05.

you ever use pornography? This is - Let me finish this question. Do you

:38:05.:38:10.

ever use pornography? Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the significant

:38:10.:38:15.

things that is quite obvious as a trend is now there is more

:38:15.:38:19.

pornography available in the privacy of your own home it's more

:38:19.:38:23.

accessible to women. That empowers women to think about their

:38:23.:38:27.

relationship to sex and to their bodies and the kind of relationships

:38:27.:38:32.

and sexual activities they want to engage in that is unprecedented.

:38:32.:38:36.

you compare it to - I need to come in here. We are in danger of

:38:36.:38:42.

constructing pornography as this kind of liberating potential for

:38:42.:38:45.

sexual expression. This is certainly not what the we are hearing on the

:38:45.:38:50.

front-line of supporting women who have experienced male violence where

:38:50.:38:53.

often pornography has either been part of that violence, where women

:38:53.:38:57.

have been coerced into acting out. Whether it's young women that are

:38:57.:39:01.

testifying to this in the schools work we are doing where they say

:39:01.:39:06.

things like - I feel I am under pressure. Sexually to behave there

:39:06.:39:11.

are certain things expected of me to behave like a porn star. With adult

:39:11.:39:20.

women who have experience experienced being coerced into

:39:20.:39:26.

playing - We can't hear everyone if you speak at the same time. To say

:39:26.:39:30.

that young women are being coerced into acting in particular ways as a

:39:30.:39:36.

result of pornography, first of all, reduces all of culture just to

:39:36.:39:42.

pornography. They may have positive and negative - Pornography is

:39:42.:39:51.

prevalent in our culture -- Tell us -- hang on. There is the whole issue

:39:51.:39:54.

around consent. All of us would share the concerns about around

:39:54.:39:58.

sexual violence. The conversation has to focus on consent and choice.

:39:58.:40:01.

By focussing on the pornography we focus on something which is tangible

:40:01.:40:05.

to deal with. When we talk to young people, some young people do

:40:05.:40:09.

experience pressure because of pornography, some because of a whole

:40:09.:40:14.

range of other reasons. Fundamental to it, if we don't address the issue

:40:14.:40:18.

around consent around parents talking to children, through

:40:18.:40:23.

society, better education we will fail. One of the key things that is

:40:23.:40:27.

important here is the internet can become bedevilled here. The internet

:40:27.:40:30.

is a force for good when it comes to advice and information for young

:40:30.:40:34.

people. Any of the controls that we put on this have to be done with a

:40:34.:40:39.

view, if we get it wrong, we put young people at risk of not getting

:40:39.:40:42.

advice and help. That includes the violence against women organisations

:40:42.:40:48.

and others as well. This link between harm between for women

:40:48.:40:54.

especially and porn comes from a book in 1981. We had a rhetoric

:40:54.:40:58.

which is about violence and about damage for women for 30 years. It's

:40:58.:41:04.

very difficult for us to think in any other term. If you compare that

:41:04.:41:07.

to another moral panic which didn't happen, which could have happened,

:41:07.:41:11.

the comparison between professional boxing and, for instance, street

:41:11.:41:15.

violence. We didn't have that moral panic. It's very clear we can look

:41:15.:41:19.

at boxing and say, that is a game with special rules, people are very

:41:19.:41:23.

capable of looking at it and seeing the very difference between two

:41:23.:41:27.

people who consent fighting in a ring and going out and just fighting

:41:27.:41:30.

people without their consent. We would be able to do that with

:41:30.:41:40.

pornography were it not for that book. To frame him as a moral

:41:40.:41:44.

(inaudible) is ridiculous. Pornography do you like? A wide

:41:44.:41:49.

range. The primary concern for me is that it is being produced in a

:41:49.:41:52.

clearly consensual environment. it not true, I don't want to intrude

:41:52.:41:57.

too much, you have been the victim of sexual violence yourself?

:41:57.:42:04.

Absolutely. I don't understand what it has to do with my engaging with

:42:04.:42:07.

consensually engaging pornography. Have you been a victim of sexual

:42:07.:42:14.

violence the representation, albeit with consenting actors, is of sexual

:42:14.:42:19.

violence, where does -- how does that add up? If I have been hit by a

:42:19.:42:23.

car I don't want to see a movie that has been hit by a car? It's a

:42:23.:42:27.

fantasy. I enjoy the fantasy of the loss of control. It doesn't mean

:42:27.:42:32.

that the real experience of a genuine nonconsensual violation has

:42:32.:42:36.

to be acceptable. It's similar to going on a rollercoaster. You ride a

:42:36.:42:39.

rollercoaster. You are out of control within a controlled way. You

:42:39.:42:42.

have to trust that the person who produced it and the person who

:42:42.:42:45.

operates it has enough of a concern for your safety that they will

:42:46.:42:49.

ensure that you are safe in that environment. To allow you to

:42:49.:42:54.

experience an extreme of emotion you couldn't do otherwise. It 's a

:42:54.:42:59.

fantasy. The whole question of control and access to pornography

:42:59.:43:02.

has become very topical and the Prime Minister and various others

:43:02.:43:07.

have expressed a view on it. What is your view, Vivienne Pattinson? I

:43:07.:43:10.

think the solution that has been suggested that filters will be

:43:10.:43:15.

offered to all new internet service providing customers this year and

:43:15.:43:19.

they will come with a default filter on, unless you untick it, which is a

:43:19.:43:23.

simple thing to do, will give a degree of protection, I think. The

:43:23.:43:27.

Rosie world of pornography that has been described here that is quite

:43:27.:43:32.

consensual and all the rest of it, does not, I think, tally with what I

:43:32.:43:36.

have seen with, you know, five minutes on Google putting porn into

:43:36.:43:42.

a search engine and seeing what comes out. What kind of research do

:43:42.:43:47.

you do around the materials you look at? That is all I need to do.It

:43:47.:43:57.
:43:57.:43:57.

doesn't actually. She is looking for embroidery patterns. Actually -She

:43:57.:44:04.

is entitled to be free of it? People put porn into Google because

:44:04.:44:09.

they are being -- looking for information. The kind of stuff they

:44:09.:44:16.

are finding within a couple of clicks is not acceptable. We should

:44:16.:44:22.

be having a wider discussion about sex education rather than demonising

:44:22.:44:30.

porn. Should 1 o 00-year-olds have unsupervised access to a computer.

:44:30.:44:35.

We know they do. Why do people blame the filter companies. The companies

:44:35.:44:39.

that sell you software that is meant to stop kids seeing it. They aric

:44:39.:44:43.

maing money out of not providing something that they promise and

:44:43.:44:47.

giving you a false promise. At the moment it's like the porn industry

:44:47.:44:54.

is being blamed, Smirnoff is being blamed for allowing a shopkeeper to

:44:54.:44:58.

buying under age alcohol. It's wrong. It's not us - we don't sell

:44:58.:45:02.

to under age people. Question of controls, do you have something you

:45:02.:45:07.

want to say on controls? More about the way the porn industry is being

:45:07.:45:13.

framed as an innocent victim and that it's being held up in the dock.

:45:13.:45:16.

Clarissa you study this industry, I'm staggered you have nothing

:45:16.:45:21.

critical. You appear to have nothing critical to say about it. I have

:45:21.:45:26.

plenty - What is your idea on controls? Well, I think first of all

:45:26.:45:30.

I think, as we said, it's important people should be able to not have to

:45:30.:45:34.

look at porn and people should be helped if they don't want to look at

:45:34.:45:38.

it and they feel themselves sort of trapped and sucked into it, there

:45:38.:45:43.

should be ways of helping people. How? To get out. The churches are

:45:43.:45:47.

developing programmes to do that. I don't know how other people are for

:45:47.:45:51.

people who say they want to do it. In terms of controls, I mean it may

:45:51.:45:56.

be that certain controls, it may be - there are various debates about

:45:56.:46:00.

legal whether things should be imposed legally and so on. A much

:46:00.:46:03.

better thing would be to encourage people to think postively about

:46:03.:46:11.

doing other things, frankly, instead of spend - sitting in front of T V

:46:11.:46:16.

scenes - The most important thing is that we tackle the education. We

:46:16.:46:23.

have to compare yourselves. It's not a utopia, look at our closest

:46:23.:46:26.

countries, the Netherlands being a good example, it's not perfect

:46:26.:46:29.

there, young people there find it easier to talk to their parents and

:46:29.:46:35.

teachers about sex from an early age. This have lower rates of STIs

:46:35.:46:40.

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