14/08/2013 Newsnight


With Jeremy Paxman. Security forces kill hundreds in Egypt - what next for the Muslim Brotherhood? And is pornography making people worse?

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Egyptian security forces claim be to be safeguarding the state. We'll


hear live from Cairo and ask the Foreign Office if it's on the side


of the army or the Muslim Brotherhood. Also tonight: Here, in


the privacy of our homes, very large numbers of us are watching


pornography. Make me believe it. There is something absurd about


porn, yet it is consumed in deadly seriousness. How is it changing and


what is it doing to us and the way we and our children think and act?


We have porn enthusiasts, producers and critics with us. It is a long


way short of civil war, but in some respects what's happening in the


most important country in the Arab world begins to look as if it has


the potential to go that way. The internationally respected


Vice-President, Mohamed El Baradei, walked out of the government today


in protest at the bloodshed by Egyptian forces in trying to clear


supporters of the ousted former President from the streets. The


health ministry says nearly 150 people have been killed and over


1,400 injured. Let us go to Cairo now and talk to the BBC's Middle


East editor, Jeremy Bowen. What is the mood in Cairo tonight, Jeremy?


have driven through the city in the last hour or so. I can tell you


there is a curfew, but people are moving around. As you get closer


into the centre there are more military roadblocks. Journalists are


able to move around in the area. There is a dispensation for us. I


think that the thing about Egypt at the moment is that it's highly


divided, it's very polarised, that is something which is a huge


problem, not just for now, but for the future. Both sides are saying


that the future of Egypt is at stake. Both sides are right. They


have very different conceptions of what that future needs to be.


there an obvious way out? No, there isn't. What they need to do is try


to get together and try and decide the way forward and try and decide


on some kind of nation national consensus. I don't see how they do


that when people are being killed on the streets. What we are seeing at


the moment is a consequence of the winner takes all politics of Egypt


in the last couple of years. President Morsi was in offers,


before he was ousted said he would govern for all Egyptians, but really


governed for his supporters. The army and their supporters say they


want to restore democracy. They have acted with such ferocity that, you


know, they clearly want to remove the Muslim Brotherhood as a


political force in the country. That has been tried before in the 40s and


the 50s when they were, 40s the Muslim Brotherhood had a campaign of


violence, in the 50s NASA pretty much destroyed their network. It


took them a long time to recover. Out of all that came not just the


Muslim Brotherhood, which has been governing in Egypt, the extreme


jihadist ideologies that culminated in Al-Qaeda. What we are seeing at


the moment, I think, will really shape the way things go in Egypt


over the next generation. If it is shaping Egypt, it will help to shape


the Middle East as well. Jeremy, thank you very much. With the story


of today's events in Cairo and where it leaves Egypt's slow struggle


towards becoming a functioning democracy Tim Whewell. Today was the


day pa the patients of Egypt's new military backed authorities snapped.


From 7.00 am interior ministry forces moved in with bulldozers to


demolish the protest camp set up six weeks ago by supporters of the


deposed Islamist President, Mohamed Morsi. There were tanks with special


vehicles in the streets around the main camp in western Cairo, but


thick clouds of black smoke hid much of what happened beyond. Earlier in


the day, the security forces insisted they were only using


teargas, but many witnesses reported seeing them fire live bullets at


protesters. People are being make-shift field hospitals on Rabaa


al-Adawiya Square, the Brotherhood claims thousands have been killed.


The official death toll was much lower, it rose throughout the day.


By late evening, the Health Ministry gave a total of 149 dead, among them


a British cameraman for Sky News, Mick Dean. They moved in and from


the moment that they moved in, they started using teargas and shooting


very quickly. This was a use of force from the very beginning to


break up the sit-in. I think the decision was also taken to move in


with maximum force and this riot police does not know how to use


force proportionally, do not know how to use live ammunition in a


legal manner which is only targeting individuals who present a risk to


the lives of the security forces. It's in the name of these people


that the riot police have acted against the Brotherhood. The vast


crowds that filled Tahrir Square and other Egyptian streets six weeks ago


demanding the departure of Mohamed Morsi even though he was


democratically-elected a year before. Since his over throw the new


authorities installed by the army have launched a propaganda museum


that have convinced many the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist


organisation. State television showed footage of protesters firing


on security forces. The authorities say guns and ammunition were found


not been proved they indulged in any terrorism. It was the same firm line


tonight from the Interior Minister. TRANSLATION: There is plans. There


will be plans we will face arms with arms. There won't be any


self-restraint from now on. Not all in the anti-Morsi camp believed that


today's bloodshed was justified. One of the Egypt's most respected


politicians, Mohamed El Baradei, prominent in the 2011 revolution,


resigned as interim Vice-President today in protest. The United States,


which gives the Egyptian military $1.5 billion a year, was equally


shocked. Today's events are deplorable and they run counter to


Egyptian aspirations for peace, inclusion and genuine democracy.


Egyptians inside and outside of the government need to take a step back.


They need to calm the situation. clashes involving Morsi supporters


broke out today in the second city, Alexandria, and elsewhere in the


country, the chances of reconciliation seem slim. This sort


of violence will provide some justification, if you like, for the


army to get more involved in the name of restoring security. That


might be enough to keep the army popular, but I don't think they have


that long to go on with this and retain international support.


Tonight, the remains of the main Brotherhood camp was still ablaze as


the authorities imposed a month-long state of emergency. Many will


conclude that the security forces, acting in the name of the


revolution, have brought Egypt back dangerously close to how it was


under the old dictatorship. Here now is the Foreign Office Minister,


Alistair Burt. I take it the British government condemns what happened


today? Yes, the Foreign Secretary put out a statement this morning


condemning the use of force to clear the protests. We deeply regretted


the failure of the attempts at compromise over the past month. The


tran di-is what happened today could have been avoided. Does the British


government consider the government in Egypt legitimate? We work with


it. It clearly has a degree of authority. It can't be denied that


the population in Egypt is deeply polarised, there are millions of


people who support the government. Equally, there are large numbers who


do not. We work - we have a relationship with the state, not a


government. We consider it a legitimate government? Yes, we


probably do in that it is operating there, but it has set a timetable


for a transition to democracy. We have said that the military should


not be intervening in a democratic situation. In a sense, we are where


we are. Mohamed El Baradei says the only people who will benefit from


today's action are terrorists and extremists? Do you share that view?


He has a serious point. The danger of making it clear to those who have


a belief in moderate political Islam they should not be taking part in


the political process is of course they feel excluded and there are


risks. What we don't know is whether or not what will follow, what has


happened today, will be an attempt to bring in the Muslim Brotherhood


or bring them back into political process. If there is an attempt to


exclude them completely Mr El Baradei's comments are highly


pertinent. Do you think there is a danger of civil war in Egypt?


think it would be wrong from this distance to say that something like


that is likely to happen. Clearly, the situation is exceptionally


polarised and people are deeply split. What we have seen is the


violence encouraged today has -- incurred today has moved elsewhere.


We will plead with all those with responsibilities to be restrained,


to ease the violence down. Could it, it could, but I think we are some


distance away from that yet. have been out there? Yes, recently.


Have you spoken to the Muslim Brotherhood? Yes.Have you spoken to


the army? Does it seem like a stable place? It's a deeply fractured


place. You have the Muslim Brotherhood who feel that power has


been unfairly ripped from them. You have a population supporting a


military intervention, who believe that order was restored from a


failing government. What you don't have is an express of popular will


through a ballot box to give a serious sense of legitmacy and a way


forward. Unless there is a compromise between the two blocks


the violence will probably continue. It has been six weeks since the


military seized power have we decided whether a coup was staged?


We haven't really. In a sense you don't need to be dancing about on


the head of a pin. There has been military intervention. Has it been


without popular support? No. It has had popular support. It does not


have the legitmacy that a democratically-elected government


would have. They came to restore order. They wanted to see a


transition. What we have seen today has set back that process. What is


the problem with calling it a coup? It sounds like a coup? There isn't a


problem with calling a coup. If you believe coup is about a group of


generals, no politicians anywhere - The military always claim, when they


stage a coup they always claim to have popular support, don't they?


From the millions in the street that has some backing. That isn't the


point. It's where Egypt is going and whether what is happening now is in


anyway contributing to a democratic future. If the political process is


to be damaged by trying to drive one section of it completely away and


the violence today will not have helped in that process, then you


worry about where Egypt is going. What the new government have got to


demonstrate is that there is a path way - Where do you think Egypt is


going? I don't think at this stage, honestly tonight, anyone knows.


Jeremy put it clearly in terms of a battle for the soul of Egypt. That


is going on. You asked at the beginning of the titles whose side


are the British government on? We are on the side of the Egyptian


people. We have to support the Egyptian people p in finding a path


way back to democracy that involves us in engaging with all politicians


as we have been doing relentlessly over the past few weeks to prevent


the tragedy that happened today. It's a tragedy that wasn't


successful. Thank you very much. When did you last watch pornography?


There are perhaps some adults in Britain who have never seen any.


It's ubiquity or the ubiquity of access to the internet means it is


in some form or other available day or night in the privacy of anyone's


home. Here, sometimes for free, more often for than paying for it you can


watch people you have never met doing the most intimate of things


for the delectation of their viewers. What their viewers is best


not thought about. What effect is all this exposure having upon us and


upon our children? We will discuss that shortly with our assembled


shelve magazines, things have changed. When the internet was fast


enough to carry video it's not just the scale of porn consumption that


rocketed but what is in the videos is changing fast. Action.You don't


need much to shoot an adult movie. For Laura Macrow, one of Britain's


pop porn directors it's the car park of her studio on the edge of


Birmingham. Turn around.Laura shoots for TV and for big named porn


brands in America. Half the job is tailoring the content to meet


specific rules and regulations. is nice. Make me believe it. Over


the years it has certainly changed in terms of we have to keep it tame.


We have to consider the regulatory rules, everybody has a perception as


to how they see something. We can't do anything that is aggression.


Anything that would be harmful to an individual. You know, so obviously


sometimes in adult movies that has appeared to be the case. It's


actually not. Everything is consensual and above board. Large


amounts of porn are now available free because of the so-called tube


sites where, with no age warnings, you can click straight through to


hardcore video and that is not regulated because it is based


offshore. What you do you you create a massive massively (inaudible)


which is free. You get visitors coming to your website. You upsell


them premium versions of that service for $20 or �20 a month


whatever. It's in the past five or six years you had the ex-edges


sploegs in free porn the producer cans see quickly what the consumers


want and produce more of it. Research on recent content is


scarce. In a 2005 study of the 60 top selling DVDs, 304 scenes were


analysed 88% contained physical aggression, a woman being spanked,


forced to gag or being slapped. 49% contained verbal aggression. Targets


were most often depicted as liking or ignoring the aggression. The most


recent evidence is anecdotal. Here is what the regulator says. It's


very common place for sex scenes in modern pornography to feature women


being penetrated in multiple or fillses at the same time. It's


common for women to be slapped, spat a at and treated as, you know,


objectives to be tested to the limits of their physical


capabilities. That is pretty standard. That is not in just what


we might call sado-masochism pornography? No.It's a theme in


almost normal pornography? The internet has changed porn in another


massive way. Interaction. Victoria, student works as a webcam performer


it's in the nature of the medium for the content to push boundaries


towards new kinds of activity. they see what I do, or they hear me


talk about it, they certainly discover certain things that they


didn't know that they liked or they didn't realise were consumable to


have. So I find, in that sense, what I do quite powerful and, in a


positive way because I think it is helping people understanding and


coming to terms with their sexuality. They come across someone


like me who works in the industry I do, I list 100 things they have


never heard of, that are potential for them to have Because there are


thousands of women doing this kind of work in Britain alone, it's


impossible for a regulator even to know what is in the content, let


alone police it. Let us discover pornography with various supporters


and opponents of it. Is Is Anna Arrowsmith you promote these movies?


There is a lot of porn out there, not being paid for. It 's a growing


sector? Yes. We have our own channel now. We have dust TV, Feminist Porn


Awards and Berlin Film Festival. For the mainstream stuff it's been


attacked strongly. Benedict Garrett you are in this business too. How


does it feel to you. Does it feel like a real growth industry? There


is so much free porn out there it's challenging. Equal Equally, that


forces producers to be creative in the pornography they do produce.


There is a lot more pornography out there produced for women. You know,


people who want to see much more detail in terms of the quality of


the photography, the quality of the storyline. So because more and more


are accessing pornography online, increasingly women, there are new


markets pornography is trying to tap on. Do you feel anything morally


reprehencible about what you do? I certainly - I don't sit here and


represent (inaudible) Of course not. You do? When I perform in


pornography I would not do anything I would not personally watch myself.


I call what I enjoy in terms of pornography vanilla pornography. I


like seeing attractive people having sex. That is generally what I like


to see. Is the pattern of pornography changing as seems to be


suggested? There are various kind of changes that are occurring. The big


story in internet porn. In terms of production there are various stories


we could focus on. There is Anna feminist porn and user generated


pornography is one of the big stories. Equally, the internet


hasn't closed down every form of more traditional delivery of porn.


There are still magazines available to - for people to use. Also DVDs,


certain kinds of DVDs have become important like parody films.


suggestion we heard from the former regulator, there is more extreme


stuff out there, is that true? is one of the claims that is made.


Actually, it depends on how you look at the particular scenes. In the VT


there was some talk about slapping of women. Well, it depends how that


- what the context of that is. If that consensual spanking, does that


count as violence in quite the way it seems to suggest in that piece of


research? What is going on here? This is certainly something that,


you know, it didn't exist at anything like its current level


20/30 years ago. Is this a case of supply creating demand or what?


think there is certainly more women watching porn now. A third of online


con Soviet Unioners are female. It's not just women buying stuff, but


allowing men - they are using it as couples. When it becomes more


acceptable by women then men will become more likely to use it, but


also more vocal about using it. It's a mixture of, yes, we are do doing


more, but we are being honest and open about it as well. What do you


think is behind it? It is getting more violent and more available to


everyone. People have been saying it, it isn't a new thing. There is a


lot more free porn. You can see a whole scene online, you know, not


that long ago it was harder to see really long scenes. That is maybe


the internet facilitating things because previously you would have to


subscribe to a website. There are tube websites where people are


watching porn for free and, people used to buy DVDs or VHS tapes.


the whole country master baiting more or what? Well, maybe. Maybe


they are more honest. People in the past, as you say, would have gone to


shops to buy DVDs that would have put off a lot of people,


particularly women. The idea of going to Soho and dirty men finding


videos. People can explore their sexuality like never before. It has


been suppressed - In the intimacy of their own home. I think what I'm


seeing as part of my work in the violence against women organisation


is some of the fallout from this. As you were saying there, Benedict,


that some sort of material that would have been quite hard to seek


out would have had quite a significant and serious


consequences. I'm thinking in terms of of the violent & extreme


pornography and rape pornography is available within two clicks that


pref ledges of that material has certain effects. It has certain


social impacts. The fact that I would have to disagree with what


Clarissa was saying in terms of the different context around acts like


spanking. The way that mainstream pornography frames violence against


women - Why it is prolive rating in the way it is. How does it seem to


you Vivienne? What is worrying is it is available to everybody whether


you are looking for it. It appears that porn is looking for you as a


web browser it pops up where you are not necessarily looking for it. It


is hidden over the web. It requires you to click on it It does. I don't


agree with this arrangement. I don't see pop-ups coming up. I don't see


stuff unless I go looking for porn I don't find. It you don't find it in


magazines openingly or on television. I disagree with that. I


have done web searchers for something that seems innocent.


were you looking for? Do you want to know Yes?Georgian embroeder erred -


You were inviting to look at pornography? I was. Search engines


rely on what you researched before. When she argues you put the word


porn in you get rape porn that is because she writes a lot and


discusses about rape and stuff like that. Most people would just get


mainstream, I don't know how you are getting that, we just won't ask you!


Unyoung people will often look for porn because they are not getting


good education. They look to find out what sex is. When you get that


what you find is a particular version of sex. That is something


which is a really important part of why people are searching for


pornography. If they are searching because they want to watch it, that


is one issue. Young people have always searched for information


about sex, haven't they? Absolutely they have. It isn't a new


phenomenon, it's easier to access. What we see at Brook is people


having concerns and anxieties and questions - We will look at that in


a moment or two. Now, there are all sorts of aspects to this. And one of


the things that we will look at now is some of the consequences of


exposure to porn. Consequences for relationships, for children and for


society as a whole. Paul Mason computer screen has become a window


into a wide range of sexual activity. What is that doing to


people? Cindy Gallop, a woman who dates mainly young younger men set


up the website Make Love Not Porn because of a change in men's


behaviour she attributes to pornography. Many men said to me on


their first sexual encounter with someone they were dating they found


themselves being addressed with the language that you hear in porn


films, which is fine if over time you have agreed you are both into


that kind of thing, but can be a real shock and a very jar jarring


when it happens unexpectedly the first time you go to bed together.


It's illegal to provide porn to minors they do see it. Some who


study it are concerned about its effects on adolescent mens. Years


ago when a boy would find his father Playboy he got glimpses into women


bent over smiling in a cornfield. When he gets into the internet via a


smartphone, computer he is catapulted into a world of sexual


cruelty. That world is available to him 24-hours a day. There is very,


very little what we would call soft-core porn on the internet. That


has been wiped away by the sfri. Does violent -- industry. Does


violent porn cause violent behaviour? It is hard to find


evidence for that. What is clearer is images that become more extreme


and addiction. Paula Hall deals people -- with people with sex


addiction. It's exaggerating a natural and desire to seek out


attractive sexual partners. It is giving us constant endless nof elt.


Our brains are becoming more and more wired towards those


pornographic images than it is towards partnered sex. Adolescents


are in a stage of change and pruning sometimes those other path ways for


partnered sex aren't developing at all Other psychologists dispute the


possibility of sex addiction. Victoria, a webcam performer, says


she sees signs of addiction among her clients. It has the potential to


be addictive, it's easy and it's friendly and warm. A Lott of these


clients know when they log on. If I have a relationship with them over a


certain amount of time, I'm going to be happy to see them and catch up


with them and have a chat and see how they are. It's like seeing an


old friend. They forget how much money and time they spend on me. Do


I think it's damaging, yes, it's not my place to tell them to stop.


British government has signalled it will require internet providers to


filter out porn unless users specifically opt-in. Within the


industry views on this are mixed. people want to watch porn they


should opt-in to it. When people do opt-in people can't see as a bad


light because if they want to look for it, they want to watch it, that


is their own choice. David Cameron needs to stop trying to control


people under a banner of protecting them because it's protecting nobody.


It makes jobs harder and it, sort of, perpetuates the idea what is not


normal is damaging. The fact remains, never before have so many


men had so much access to extreme imagery and no political party is


proposing to censor it outright. Let us talk about some of the effects of


pornography. Julia Long what do you think it's doing the way men regard


women? I was talking to my colleagues colleagues today and some


of the test moanies that have come out of that work are really


seriously troubling. The types of language that are used to talk about


girls and their peer groups. The kinds of - in the recent office


Office of the Children's Commissioner, the OCC report, one


men said porn is everywhere. A 14-year-old boy involved in a


multiple perpetrator rape of a 11-year-old testified it was like


being in a porn film. What we are seeing is a very, very troubling set


of consequences of this material being so available. I think when we


talk about the impact of it, we tend to have a narrow definition of how


it may or may not cause violence. We have to look at the reality for


young women who are growing up having to deal with these kinds of


attitudes. Doesn't that bother you? No, because the facts don't actually


support that. Young people today are actually waiting longer to have sex.


Young girls especially. The studies show England, North America and


Australia show that violence against young people and sexual violence


against them is the lowest it has ever been. Pregnancy rates are at


the lowest for 30 years. Rape has been dropping since the early 80s,


young girls when they do - The Home Office estimates... It has stayed


around the 80,000 mark. What is your experience with young people?


majority distinguish between fantasy and reality if they have an adult


who communicates with them, good education and good support. There is


absolutely no doubt that young people are see seeing things which


sometimes lead them to question and to be confused and sometimes to be


inquiztive. The majority of young people do navigate their way through


relationships fairly well. We have a job - one of the key things about


this is, let us talk about sex and about why young people need to be -


want to have sex and when they want to have sex rather than just about


pornography. We still will not talk about young people and sexuality.


Until we do, then we are in danger of clamping down on a particular


area that seems comfortable rather than changing our culture.


Andrew Symes what is your experience? Have you seen


pornography? No. The church is recognising this is a problem. I


want to go back to what is said about addiction. There is


controversy about whether that is actually true or not. Certainly,


churches are now waking up to the fact that large numbers of their


members are coming forward and saying - we have a problem in that


we are watching this stuff. We feel as if we are addicted to it. We


can't get away from it, it is causing us shame and we don't - we


don't want to do it, but we keep coming back to it again and again.


These are members of the church? and clergy and ordinary members of


the church. It's now people are being open about this, which is


obviously a good thing, but the emphasis now is on people who


actually are feeling this is a negative thing for them. Yet, they


can't help themselves from going back to it. Is that in comparison to


a scriptures, they feel bad because they have been set up to think that


sex is bad. The feelings of negativity you have around normal


adult sexuality, I was - I wasn't raised really terriblibly Catholic,


I went to a Catholic primary school and went to church, for me when I


realised I was gay they made it difficult. For me looking online and


looking at pornography it was something of a comfort to realise


I'm not a freak. There are gay people, it's OK. Also, trying to


look at norm normal educational websites as well because sex


education at school was not there. It was totally inadequate. Given by


sixth-formers who treated it as a joke. One of the things they said,


the only thing they said in relation to homosexuality, "even benders need


to use condoms otherwise they will get AIDS, even though they already


do." I was a former Head of of (inaudible) at a school. I find it


bizarre that religion criticised pornography when the amount of


misery brought on this planet up until now and including now through


multiple reasons also because of the shame that religion puts on sexual


expression and sexual liberalism and the guilt people feel because of


that, being explore masturbation and exploring different sides of their


sexuality, the amount of misery put on people not to mention the deaths


that people suffer in certain societies because they explore those


things, is not in anyway comparable to - there is no proven negative


side to pornography. There is evidence for and against. The direct


effect of religions on this planet far outweigh - You could say some


respects pornography can be quite effective in keeping some


relationships together? Well, apparently that is what some people


say, but certainly mainstream Christian teaching, from other


religions as well, they are quite clear that sex is a great gift from


God, it is to be used within certain boundaries. We all draw the


boundaries in different ways, don't we? In different places. It's


important - If you have a couple who have different levels of sexual


desire and one of them chooses to use pornography and master bait, and


it keeps the relationship going, that is a good thing, isn't it?


think mainstream Christian teaching has always held that sexual intimacy


is between a couple who are committed to each other in a


monogamous relationship anything outside of that - What about the


people who don't have social skills to form relationships? We are


focussing on the negatives here and the possibilities of keeping not


terribly great relationships on track we have a changing


relationship with our bodies, with media, with sexuality now. There are


plenty of people out there who are using pornography as an ajunction to


their relationship. It's an important one. It may not be


produced pornography but their own material theys are generating.


you ever use pornography? This is - Let me finish this question. Do you


ever use pornography? Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the significant


things that is quite obvious as a trend is now there is more


pornography available in the privacy of your own home it's more


accessible to women. That empowers women to think about their


relationship to sex and to their bodies and the kind of relationships


and sexual activities they want to engage in that is unprecedented.


you compare it to - I need to come in here. We are in danger of


constructing pornography as this kind of liberating potential for


sexual expression. This is certainly not what the we are hearing on the


front-line of supporting women who have experienced male violence where


often pornography has either been part of that violence, where women


have been coerced into acting out. Whether it's young women that are


testifying to this in the schools work we are doing where they say


things like - I feel I am under pressure. Sexually to behave there


are certain things expected of me to behave like a porn star. With adult


women who have experience experienced being coerced into


playing - We can't hear everyone if you speak at the same time. To say


that young women are being coerced into acting in particular ways as a


result of pornography, first of all, reduces all of culture just to


pornography. They may have positive and negative - Pornography is


prevalent in our culture -- Tell us -- hang on. There is the whole issue


around consent. All of us would share the concerns about around


sexual violence. The conversation has to focus on consent and choice.


By focussing on the pornography we focus on something which is tangible


to deal with. When we talk to young people, some young people do


experience pressure because of pornography, some because of a whole


range of other reasons. Fundamental to it, if we don't address the issue


around consent around parents talking to children, through


society, better education we will fail. One of the key things that is


important here is the internet can become bedevilled here. The internet


is a force for good when it comes to advice and information for young


people. Any of the controls that we put on this have to be done with a


view, if we get it wrong, we put young people at risk of not getting


advice and help. That includes the violence against women organisations


and others as well. This link between harm between for women


especially and porn comes from a book in 1981. We had a rhetoric


which is about violence and about damage for women for 30 years. It's


very difficult for us to think in any other term. If you compare that


to another moral panic which didn't happen, which could have happened,


the comparison between professional boxing and, for instance, street


violence. We didn't have that moral panic. It's very clear we can look


at boxing and say, that is a game with special rules, people are very


capable of looking at it and seeing the very difference between two


people who consent fighting in a ring and going out and just fighting


people without their consent. We would be able to do that with


pornography were it not for that book. To frame him as a moral


(inaudible) is ridiculous. Pornography do you like? A wide


range. The primary concern for me is that it is being produced in a


clearly consensual environment. it not true, I don't want to intrude


too much, you have been the victim of sexual violence yourself?


Absolutely. I don't understand what it has to do with my engaging with


consensually engaging pornography. Have you been a victim of sexual


violence the representation, albeit with consenting actors, is of sexual


violence, where does -- how does that add up? If I have been hit by a


car I don't want to see a movie that has been hit by a car? It's a


fantasy. I enjoy the fantasy of the loss of control. It doesn't mean


that the real experience of a genuine nonconsensual violation has


to be acceptable. It's similar to going on a rollercoaster. You ride a


rollercoaster. You are out of control within a controlled way. You


have to trust that the person who produced it and the person who


operates it has enough of a concern for your safety that they will


ensure that you are safe in that environment. To allow you to


experience an extreme of emotion you couldn't do otherwise. It 's a


fantasy. The whole question of control and access to pornography


has become very topical and the Prime Minister and various others


have expressed a view on it. What is your view, Vivienne Pattinson? I


think the solution that has been suggested that filters will be


offered to all new internet service providing customers this year and


they will come with a default filter on, unless you untick it, which is a


simple thing to do, will give a degree of protection, I think. The


Rosie world of pornography that has been described here that is quite


consensual and all the rest of it, does not, I think, tally with what I


have seen with, you know, five minutes on Google putting porn into


a search engine and seeing what comes out. What kind of research do


you do around the materials you look at? That is all I need to do.It


doesn't actually. She is looking for embroidery patterns. Actually -She


is entitled to be free of it? People put porn into Google because


they are being -- looking for information. The kind of stuff they


are finding within a couple of clicks is not acceptable. We should


be having a wider discussion about sex education rather than demonising


porn. Should 1 o 00-year-olds have unsupervised access to a computer.


We know they do. Why do people blame the filter companies. The companies


that sell you software that is meant to stop kids seeing it. They aric


maing money out of not providing something that they promise and


giving you a false promise. At the moment it's like the porn industry


is being blamed, Smirnoff is being blamed for allowing a shopkeeper to


buying under age alcohol. It's wrong. It's not us - we don't sell


to under age people. Question of controls, do you have something you


want to say on controls? More about the way the porn industry is being


framed as an innocent victim and that it's being held up in the dock.


Clarissa you study this industry, I'm staggered you have nothing


critical. You appear to have nothing critical to say about it. I have


plenty - What is your idea on controls? Well, I think first of all


I think, as we said, it's important people should be able to not have to


look at porn and people should be helped if they don't want to look at


it and they feel themselves sort of trapped and sucked into it, there


should be ways of helping people. How? To get out. The churches are


developing programmes to do that. I don't know how other people are for


people who say they want to do it. In terms of controls, I mean it may


be that certain controls, it may be - there are various debates about


legal whether things should be imposed legally and so on. A much


better thing would be to encourage people to think postively about


doing other things, frankly, instead of spend - sitting in front of T V


scenes - The most important thing is that we tackle the education. We


have to compare yourselves. It's not a utopia, look at our closest


countries, the Netherlands being a good example, it's not perfect


there, young people there find it easier to talk to their parents and


teachers about sex from an early age. This have lower rates of STIs


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