15/08/2013 Newsnight


15/08/2013

Is it time for the world to stop the bloodshed in Egypt? Are gambling machines really like crack cocaine? Why are so few houses being built? What is an Olinguito?


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Transcript


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After the shooting, now the coffins, Egypt counted its dead today, some

:00:08.:00:14.

600 officially, but the true number may be higher. Egypt's ambassador to

:00:15.:00:21.

the UN denied it's a massacre. What happened yesterday was

:00:21.:00:22.

the UN denied it's a massacre. What according to the law. And we ask the

:00:22.:00:26.

US Government and Senator John McCain how bad things have to get

:00:26.:00:32.

before they cut military aid. It's unbelievable. You can actually

:00:32.:00:36.

go through that much money, £1,000 in five, ten minutes. Also, they've

:00:36.:00:40.

been called the crack cocaine of gambling, so why are these machines

:00:41.:00:44.

allowed? More of these being built at any time now than for four years,

:00:44.:00:49.

so is that the housing crisis over then? And, recognise this? You

:00:49.:00:56.

shouldn't. It's only just been discovered hiding in the an Dean

:00:56.:01:00.

cloud forests. We talk to the man who winkled it out and debate

:01:00.:01:02.

Darwinism with a few of its friends. Good evening. Tonight, all seems

:01:02.:01:15.

quiet in Cairo, the product of an enforced curfew that shouldn't be

:01:15.:01:18.

mistaken for calm. The official death toll from what looks to many a

:01:18.:01:22.

massacre has been put at over 600. The Muslim Brotherhood believe to it

:01:23.:01:27.

be in the thousands. This evening, Egypt's Interior Ministry authorised

:01:27.:01:30.

the use of deadly force against protesters targeting state

:01:30.:01:34.

institutions. Earlier, President Obama cancelled military exercises

:01:34.:01:37.

with Egypt but stopped short of suspending more than a billion

:01:37.:01:41.

dollars of aid. We'll hear from the US State Department in a moment and

:01:41.:01:45.

go live to John McCain. First, the events of the day.

:01:45.:01:49.

An Islamist dream reduced to a events of the day.

:01:49.:01:54.

smouldering ruin. A day after the killings around the

:01:54.:01:59.

mosque in Cairo, they've been clearing away all traces of the

:01:59.:02:02.

Muslim Brotherhood's protest camp, the movement's last symbolic toe

:02:02.:02:07.

hold in a country ruled for a year until it was deposed six weeks ago.

:02:07.:02:14.

At the morgue, there was chaos, as families struggled to claim their

:02:14.:02:16.

dead. TRANSLATION: My son was in a

:02:16.:02:20.

peaceful sit-in, defending his cause and his vote, defending freedom.

:02:20.:02:25.

They shot him with a bullet in his heart. The military and the police

:02:25.:02:30.

station snipers on the rooves of the buildings and shot him in the heart.

:02:30.:02:36.

525 are now officially said to have been killed yesterday, some members

:02:36.:02:41.

of the Security Forces, but the vast majority are Muslim Brotherhood

:02:41.:02:43.

supporters. Today, the police were also burying

:02:43.:02:49.

their dead. But in grander fashion. The Security Forces are now the real

:02:49.:02:53.

power in the land, stronger perhaps than they were even in the police

:02:53.:02:57.

states that were supposedly overthrown in the revolution against

:02:57.:03:04.

President Mubarak two years ago. Pf It was committed inside prison walls

:03:04.:03:08.

but were not committed publicly in front of the whole world with them

:03:09.:03:13.

watching. It's a very, very dangerous phase in Egypt's history.

:03:13.:03:18.

Today, a Government building in Cairo was set on fire by brotherhood

:03:18.:03:22.

supporters and the movement expressed fury at the bloodshed

:03:22.:03:27.

yesterday in a march through the streets of Alexandria. Anger beyond

:03:27.:03:32.

control. We can't predict what will happen. We will call for peaceful

:03:32.:03:36.

sit-ins, keep demanding for our rights and our President to come

:03:36.:03:41.

back who symbolises our democracy. We like to call for the

:03:41.:03:46.

constitution, but we cannot control everyone. So what will the

:03:46.:03:48.

Brotherhood, one of the most everyone. So what will the

:03:48.:03:53.

influential Islamic organisations of these times do now? It was

:03:53.:03:57.

overthrown after massive protests accused it of using power only in

:03:57.:04:01.

its own interests, not that of Egypt. Some fear there may be a

:04:01.:04:05.

return to the repression it suffered in the '50s and again periodically

:04:06.:04:10.

throughout the following 60 years of dictatorship. The repreingts

:04:10.:04:14.

convinced one brotherhood thinker that Islamists should use physical

:04:14.:04:17.

power, as well as peaceful means to change society. The movement's

:04:17.:04:23.

leaders rejected that view and still reject it, but puts militant groups

:04:23.:04:38.

such as Al-Qaeda in focus. It was as a result of the torture of

:04:38.:04:44.

brotherhood members in automatic's prisons, in fact in the same prison

:04:44.:04:49.

I was held in as a political prisoner, where there was a tortured

:04:49.:05:01.

person who broke away from the brotherhood idealogy and made the

:05:01.:05:04.

terrorist theory. What is the danger today? We are back almost to square

:05:04.:05:09.

one where we have the same emergency law that's been brought in. We've

:05:09.:05:14.

got almost the perfect motive for the Islamists which is, technically

:05:14.:05:18.

we won an election and we were ousted so why should we try

:05:18.:05:21.

democracy again? Islamist violence has already been spreading in the

:05:21.:05:27.

north of the peninsula in Sinai where a church was burned yesterday

:05:27.:05:31.

and seven soldiers killed today and something this week's events in

:05:31.:05:35.

Egypt will convince Islamists worldwide that they can't trust

:05:35.:05:38.

democracy. That mess edge was heard loud and

:05:38.:05:43.

clear in Libya, Syria and Yemen -- message. There, there was some kind

:05:43.:05:48.

of groups operating in the field and I think they are thinking about the

:05:48.:05:54.

whole idea of the demoralisation, the reintegration would be very

:05:54.:05:59.

difficult in Yemen and Syria. More so, the elected Islamists in

:05:59.:06:05.

Tunisia, or even in Turkey, get a lesson that you have to have your

:06:05.:06:11.

loyalists in the institution. America's long helped subsidise the

:06:11.:06:17.

Egyptian Army, but President Obama tried to signal that that support

:06:17.:06:18.

was not unconditional. Our tried to signal that that support

:06:18.:06:22.

traditional cooperation cannot continue as usual when civilians are

:06:22.:06:25.

being killed in the streets and rights are being rolled back. As a

:06:25.:06:30.

result, this morning, we notified the Egyptian government that we are

:06:30.:06:35.

cancelling our biannual joint military exercise which was

:06:35.:06:38.

scheduled for next month. Going forward, I've asked the national

:06:38.:06:40.

security team to assess the implications of the actions taken by

:06:40.:06:44.

the interim government. But the Security Forces returned to the

:06:44.:06:48.

streets after the overthrow of the brotherhood and is still supported

:06:48.:06:52.

by millions in Egypt, even by many of those who condemn the bloodshed

:06:52.:06:58.

yesterday. I'm more convinced that what happened in June 13 had to

:06:58.:07:02.

happen and that we were dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood who has no

:07:02.:07:04.

sense of responsibility towards the nation as a whole. Of course I

:07:04.:07:07.

condemn the violence that occurred yesterday that led to the death of

:07:07.:07:11.

hundreds of innocent Egyptians, but there's no way to deny the

:07:11.:07:15.

responsibility of the Muslim Brotherhood group in inciting its

:07:15.:07:18.

members over the past 48 days to block major roads in Cairo, to

:07:18.:07:22.

attack ministries and police stations.

:07:22.:07:26.

There's little sign yet of compromise on either side in Egypt.

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Tonight, violence was continuing on the streets of Alexandria and the

:07:29.:07:35.

memory of yesterday's bloodshed will inflame the country's politics for

:07:35.:07:39.

years to come. Tonight, the UN Security Council is holding a

:07:39.:07:42.

meeting to discuss the situation in Egypt. Earlier, I spoke to the

:07:42.:07:47.

Egyptian ambassador to the UN, Wafer Bassim and asked her whether

:07:47.:07:50.

yesterday's events constituted a massacre?

:07:50.:07:57.

No. I don't accept this statement. Not only as an official of the

:07:57.:08:02.

Egyptian government, but as an Egyptian citizen, like millions who

:08:02.:08:09.

are dead in Egypt, what happened yesterday was done according to the

:08:09.:08:17.

law. After several attempts to break down the sit-ins, that we are sort

:08:17.:08:22.

of paralysing the lives of millions of Egyptians in Giza and Cairo. You

:08:22.:08:28.

call this a peaceful break up of protests. It left between 500 and

:08:28.:08:32.

call this a peaceful break up of 600 dead. That's from all sides.

:08:32.:08:37.

That is from the north of the country to the south, due to all

:08:37.:08:50.

violent acts that where the reaction on the part of those who're sitting

:08:50.:08:55.

in. Do you really believe that? Not many people seem to believe that it

:08:55.:08:58.

was anything other than the actions of the interim government and their

:08:58.:09:01.

Security Forces that brought about yesterday's events?

:09:01.:09:10.

Everybody has seen the gradual trials and attempts to break down

:09:10.:09:16.

the sit-ins, starting by warnings by microphones showing the sit-ins that

:09:17.:09:24.

the way to a safe corridor to get out with their own win, with the

:09:24.:09:31.

promise of not being arrested or harassed, then there were the tear

:09:31.:09:39.

gas and the water cannons incidents. When they started by shoot shooting

:09:39.:09:45.

live ammunitions toward the police security, the police had to use

:09:45.:09:57.

things, but not live munitions. Your minister has instructed the police

:09:57.:09:59.

to use live mew mission on attacks minister has instructed the police

:10:00.:10:08.

-- munitions on government buildings. Do you think that's

:10:08.:10:12.

right? He ordered this after 30 churches have been burned down and

:10:12.:10:17.

after all the losses of life we are seeing today. He ordered that and to

:10:17.:10:24.

the restricted possible measure, the use of live ammunitions. Your close

:10:24.:10:29.

the restricted possible measure, the allie, President Obama, has said

:10:29.:10:32.

today that Egypt is on a dangerous path. He has, as you know, cancelled

:10:32.:10:36.

military operations with your country. Does that matter? Of course

:10:36.:10:45.

it matters. But what matters is not the judgment that he came and others

:10:45.:10:52.

came out with. What matters for us is the lack of understanding of the

:10:52.:10:59.

whole situation and of the escalation of a very difficult act

:10:59.:11:08.

on the part of a certain political current that is using religion to

:11:08.:11:15.

achieve political aims during the last six weeks at least.

:11:15.:11:20.

Ambassador Bassim, thank you very much indeed.

:11:20.:11:22.

I thank you. I spoke to the US State Department

:11:22.:11:28.

next and asked Maria Harff if she wished America's response had been

:11:28.:11:31.

stronger when the coup took place on Morsi six weeks ago? We have been

:11:32.:11:35.

clear from the beginning that we had serious concerns with what the

:11:35.:11:40.

military did on the 3rd and in every step of the process when we have had

:11:40.:11:44.

concerns we have raised them publicly and privately and will

:11:44.:11:49.

continue to do so. It's been said that the US lacked understanding of

:11:49.:11:52.

the situation. Do you accept that? Not at all. Everybody is clear-eyed

:11:52.:11:57.

about the situation of the complexity of the situation in

:11:57.:12:00.

Egypt. We'll remain engaged on the ground working with the different

:12:00.:12:04.

parties in the groups. What he said is that there are no easy answers

:12:04.:12:07.

here, but what is in the best interest of the Egyptian people,

:12:07.:12:09.

even in this complicated situation interest of the Egyptian people,

:12:09.:12:13.

is to come to the table. You have talked about the issues you are

:12:13.:12:16.

considering. Can you ex-prawn the case, as things stand, with 500 to

:12:16.:12:21.

600 people massacred on the streets, for leaving your US military aid in

:12:21.:12:24.

place? We continue to review all our aid to

:12:24.:12:30.

Egypt and our national security team will decide in the coming weeks

:12:31.:12:34.

about whether or not we have to do anything additionally in that

:12:35.:12:38.

regard. What would it take for you to withdraw that aid then?

:12:38.:12:43.

I'm not going to put a certain marker on what it would take in

:12:43.:12:48.

terms of our aid. I'll say that we always said that, we are corning to

:12:48.:12:52.

review the assistance and the steps the interim government takes will

:12:52.:12:55.

have an impact on aid going forward. Sure, but a lot of people watching

:12:55.:13:02.

this would say, if you are not actual actually pulling aid when 600

:13:02.:13:05.

or more people have been massacred, what would it actually take? And, if

:13:06.:13:10.

you are going to keep it up, what is it for?

:13:10.:13:15.

I think everybody's very focussed on aid, but you have seen us take a

:13:15.:13:19.

couple of steps opt military side, including cancelling this exercise

:13:19.:13:22.

but also postponing the shipment of F 16s that were scheduled recently,

:13:22.:13:26.

so we have taken steps and will continue reviewing the aid. Are you

:13:26.:13:29.

happy to deal with the interim government, is that the message we

:13:29.:13:32.

should accept from this? We have been clear that we are going to work

:13:32.:13:37.

with all parties and groups, that obviously includes the interim

:13:37.:13:38.

government. They are the ones, as obviously includes the interim

:13:38.:13:41.

the secretary said yesterday that, have a preponderance of power in the

:13:41.:13:46.

current situation and have a responsibility to not perpetrate

:13:46.:13:49.

violence against their own citizens. So clearly, they have a great deal

:13:49.:13:53.

of power here and we'll continue working with them both to push them

:13:53.:13:58.

to refrain from violence, but also to bring all parties together and

:13:58.:14:04.

move as quickly as possible towards a democratically elected Government.

:14:04.:14:07.

As they publicly said they are willing to do. Bluntly, the message

:14:07.:14:12.

this is sending out to the Islamic world, to small, moderate parties

:14:12.:14:17.

all over, is, don't bother getting elected or going through the

:14:17.:14:22.

democratic process, because if that's overturned, tough luck? .

:14:22.:14:28.

Nobody a naive. Nobody thinks transitioning to democracy after

:14:28.:14:32.

decades of autocratic rule is easy. That's why we need to remain engaged

:14:32.:14:36.

with the interim government, with the Muslim Brotherhood, with all

:14:36.:14:40.

sides to help them get back to a place that's on a path towards

:14:40.:14:46.

democracy. Thank you very much. Senator John McCain stood against

:14:46.:14:49.

President Obama in the 2008 Presidential election and is a

:14:49.:14:53.

member of the senate Foreign Affairs relations committee. Thank you for

:14:53.:14:57.

joining us here on Newsnight. Do you wish America had come in earlier on

:14:57.:15:01.

this one? Oh, I wish that when it was clear

:15:01.:15:07.

that the military coup had violated the United States law, that we had

:15:07.:15:13.

enforced the law. We were asking the Egyptians to have a constitution and

:15:13.:15:17.

observe the rule of law and we are not observing the rule of law. The

:15:17.:15:22.

law's very clear that if there's a coup, aid is cut off and we decided

:15:22.:15:28.

nolet to do that. So yes, I wish we'd weighed in much earlier and I

:15:28.:15:33.

wish that the Secretary of State on August 1st congratulated the

:15:33.:15:39.

generals for fostering democracy. I wish that we'd been unequivocal

:15:39.:15:47.

about the use of force and, as you already mentioned, as I was

:15:47.:15:50.

listening to the programme, I mean, hundreds of people have been

:15:50.:15:56.

massacred and the Muslim Brotherhood is going to go underground. Many of

:15:56.:16:01.

us predicted that unless they met members of the Muslim Brotherhood

:16:01.:16:06.

out of jail, unless they started a dialogue of conciliation and the

:16:06.:16:09.

Muslim Brotherhood condemned violence, that this was going to

:16:09.:16:15.

happen and it's a great tragedy. The United States is basically an

:16:15.:16:19.

observer when there are actions that we can take in order to pressure

:16:19.:16:22.

them to stop this kind of violence that continues.

:16:22.:16:27.

So just to clarify, you think that the message this sends sought that

:16:27.:16:31.

Islamists worldwide will now see that they cannot trust democracy and

:16:31.:16:36.

they will go underground to create whatever power thaept -- sends out

:16:36.:16:42.

the message? It also sends out the message that the United States is

:16:42.:16:47.

not going to enforce its own laws, it's not going to keep its

:16:47.:16:53.

commitment or, in one case, a threat, in other words it's well

:16:53.:16:59.

known now that the administration called in the Egyptians and said, if

:16:59.:17:04.

you have a coup, we will be forced to cut off aid because it's the law.

:17:04.:17:09.

They had the coup and we didn't cut off aid. So America's credibility is

:17:09.:17:12.

at stake here. What should happen now to that

:17:12.:17:16.

budget? It's £1.3 billion, what would you like to see happen?

:17:16.:17:21.

It's a coup. We should obviously cut it off and we should say what we

:17:22.:17:26.

want to happen in Egypt and, by the way, I know, and you do too, that

:17:26.:17:36.

the Gulf states and Saudis has brought in £14 billion. That's in

:17:36.:17:39.

tourism, business, and a whole broad brought in £14 billion. That's in

:17:39.:17:46.

variety of things that the Egyptians need the US's help and support on,

:17:46.:17:51.

including negotiations of an IMF loan. Do you think there is any

:17:51.:17:54.

realistic chance that the Obama administration will do that now?

:17:54.:17:57.

What do you think will happen when they say everything's on the table?

:17:57.:18:03.

I don't know because I'm confused and befuddled that we were not

:18:03.:18:08.

enforcing our own laws, we ask them to enforce laws and praise them for

:18:08.:18:15.

the generals for moving forward with democracy and sit by and watch

:18:15.:18:20.

people massacred by the hundreds. That sends a message of tolerance,

:18:20.:18:27.

of brutality, of in-of-Equitablive American leadership and, as you

:18:27.:18:32.

said, to the Muslim world, that the United States of America at least

:18:32.:18:38.

condones this kind of behaviour which is not in America's values and

:18:38.:18:42.

our values are our interests. I guess the unspoken thing behind this

:18:42.:18:45.

though and the real concern is that if that aid goes, whatever deal has

:18:45.:18:50.

been struck between Egypt and America over Israel goes too. Would

:18:50.:18:54.

you risk that? I think we have to and, by the way,

:18:54.:19:02.

the main reason why Egypt and Israel and Egypt's not start add conflict

:19:02.:19:06.

is because they know they'd lose. I value the camp dayed individual

:19:07.:19:11.

agreements, but I value more the respect for human life and the rule

:19:11.:19:16.

of law and that the United States of America cannot sit by and watch an

:19:16.:19:24.

overthrow of an elected Government -- Camp David. I would remind you

:19:24.:19:29.

that elections were scheduled for November. Yes.So there were other

:19:29.:19:34.

ways, democratic ways that Morsi could have been removed from power

:19:34.:19:38.

because he abused it. Thank you very much indeed.

:19:38.:19:42.

Thank you. They've been called the crack

:19:42.:19:46.

cocaine of gambling, most people have never heard of them, fixed odds

:19:46.:19:51.

betting terminals. Fruit machines on Viagra, a licence for use in casinos

:19:51.:19:57.

and betting offices intros deuced in 2001 when Gordon Brown abolished --

:19:57.:20:07.

introduced in 2001 when Gordon Brown abolished the rules. Once TfL

:20:07.:20:13.

roulette for the rich. Now there's roulette at the bookies,

:20:13.:20:21.

computerised. It's called the crack cocaine of gambling. Welcome to the

:20:21.:20:25.

world of fixed odds terminals, designed to remove £1.5 billion out

:20:26.:20:30.

of the pockets of people here and put it into the pockets of the

:20:30.:20:34.

bookmakers. Welcome to Rochdale, one of the poorest towns in Britain

:20:34.:20:38.

where they spend £72 million a year on gambling and where half the money

:20:38.:20:47.

made by bookies is made on these. The touch screen machine, maximum

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bet £100 a time, time between bets 20 seconds. You can lose £1,000 in

:20:53.:21:00.

just a few monies. James Ptherick did. I started to

:21:00.:21:05.

lose, £20 wasn't an issue, I started to chase it with £40 and before I

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knew it, £60 was in, £80 was in and it got to the point I was not able

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to hide the fact that money had gone missing and I'd lie and say that I'd

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lost it or hadn't got paid properly. What did it do to your life? The

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fixed odds betting terminals have destroyed my life. He's lost jobs,

:21:26.:21:30.

his home, a relationship. He's kicked the habit now, but thinks the

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whole system is designed to fuel addiction. These machines have

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changed the gambling habits of the normal punter. Instead of doing a £2

:21:41.:21:47.

bet, they are now sticking hundreds, thousands into these machines in a

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matter of minutes. I've done the same. I've lost hundreds of

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thousands of pounds in these same. I've lost hundreds of

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machines over the last ten years. What about the days you win? I've

:21:56.:22:00.

never won that much. What do you do with the winnings? If I win £600,

:22:00.:22:06.

£1,000, £800 out of one shop, I go to the next shop. Fixed odds betting

:22:06.:22:12.

terminals offer the same high thrills and risks as roulette,

:22:12.:22:17.

though the maximum stake is £100, the maximum pay you is just £00. The

:22:17.:22:24.

yield from FOBTs is £1.5 billion, which is now more than they make on

:22:24.:22:30.

the horses. The British gaming prevalence survey found the average

:22:30.:22:36.

FOBT gavel Butler spends £1200 a year, compared to £430 a year who

:22:36.:22:40.

stick to the horses and the pen. Every form of gambling since about

:22:40.:22:55.

1987, has been described as a crack cocaine gamble by somebody, scratch

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cards, online in particular, different types of fruit machine

:22:59.:23:01.

from all over the world, most of which have nothing in common with

:23:01.:23:05.

each other. It's a catch used by people campaigning against gambling

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to make whatever particular gambling people campaigning against gambling

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product they are after seem more sinister. There isn't any real

:23:11.:23:16.

evidence of the fixed odds betting terminals being particularly

:23:16.:23:20.

addictive or pernicious. Hi, I'm James and this is the first of my

:23:20.:23:27.

video diaries regarding my compulsory dam bling addiction.

:23:27.:23:32.

James recorded his problem on YouTube. While we were filming in

:23:32.:23:36.

Rochdale, James was recognised by a punter in the bookies from his

:23:36.:23:41.

YouTube channel and they swapped experiences. How's Rochdale dog at

:23:41.:23:47.

the moment in terms of economy? Very, very bad. The only kind of

:23:47.:23:53.

shops that we've got, they're Pound shops, estate agents, mobile phone

:23:53.:23:57.

shops and bookies. They've got the screens, the racing and the

:23:57.:24:00.

football, but all people are interested in, they've got four

:24:00.:24:05.

fixed odds betting terminals and jobless people crowd around them,

:24:05.:24:10.

they'll be playing on them trying to - they have promotions where you get

:24:10.:24:15.

a loyalty card as if you were going for your Morrison's or Tesco points.

:24:15.:24:18.

a loyalty card as if you were going How do you feel about the speed,

:24:18.:24:20.

a loyalty card as if you were going because you can spin every 20

:24:20.:24:27.

seconds? You can put £13.75 on one number. You lose your £100. If you

:24:27.:24:33.

have had three or four losing spots and you are upping your stake, the

:24:33.:24:36.

amount of money you can go through in such a short time. So you can bet

:24:36.:24:43.

every 20 seconds, you don't get time to think about cashing out? It

:24:43.:24:48.

should be increased. There is should be a cooling off where you can only

:24:48.:24:53.

spin every two minutes. So in Rochdale, the betting shops are one

:24:53.:24:56.

of the few boom industries. So it's a typical British high

:24:56.:24:59.

of the few boom industries. street really, Betfred here, Paddy

:24:59.:25:04.

Power over there and William hill around the corner. I've been in each

:25:04.:25:08.

one and there are four terminals and it's fair to say there is a fair old

:25:08.:25:14.

crowd around the terminals. Each that sheep yields on average £45,000

:25:14.:25:19.

per year to the bookie. That's a lot of money.

:25:19.:25:24.

Money that does create jobs in bookies, but creates a whole lot of

:25:24.:25:30.

heartache as well. Paul Mason there. Joining me now

:25:30.:25:35.

from the home of gambling in Las Vegas is Derek Webb who invented a

:25:35.:25:41.

poker game now widely used in betting shops but who campaigns

:25:41.:25:47.

against them. Also, the member of the British gamblers association.

:25:47.:25:50.

Derek, describe what it sounds like and feels like to see your games now

:25:51.:25:55.

on machines that they describe as crack cocaine? Well, the poker game

:25:55.:26:00.

on the that sheep is not really what the story is about. Over 90% of the

:26:01.:26:05.

action on the machine is roulette and that's the addictive content.

:26:05.:26:10.

But it does concern me, of course, that a game that I helped to create,

:26:10.:26:17.

is winning money from play players several times faster than they would

:26:17.:26:22.

be losing their money if they were playing in a casino. The real issue

:26:22.:26:27.

is the roulette. That's the most addictive content where the players

:26:27.:26:31.

are losing the money and the machines are allowed to play up to

:26:31.:26:36.

£100 maximum. There's no other country in the world that allows

:26:36.:26:40.

casino machines in betting shops up to £100 bets every 20 seconds.

:26:40.:26:45.

Ireland's just refused to allow them and the betting shops are still

:26:45.:26:49.

viable in Ireland. There's no other machines in Britain that you can bet

:26:49.:26:52.

viable in Ireland. There's no other above £2. This is an anomaly. It

:26:52.:26:57.

should never have been allowed. As you pointed out, it was the tax

:26:57.:27:02.

change that enabled them. Let me put this to Derk then that. Was pretty

:27:02.:27:06.

blunt. There is no other country in the world that allows them. Doesn't

:27:06.:27:10.

that spell it out to you? No, because it's not true. There are

:27:10.:27:13.

lots of countries in the world with no limits on stakes and prizes

:27:14.:27:18.

whatsoever. In Las Vegas, where Mr Webb is at the moment, I can put

:27:18.:27:23.

$500 on a stake two to three seconds it takes for that spin to go around.

:27:23.:27:29.

We have a 20-second spin and the customers take about 30-40 seconds

:27:29.:27:31.

We have a 20-second spin and the before they load up. Do you want to

:27:31.:27:34.

come back on that point that the facts are wrong? My facts are not

:27:34.:27:38.

wrong at all. The people who visit Las Vegas, they fly here, they drive

:27:38.:27:42.

here, stay in hotels, spend a lot of money on shows, restaurants,

:27:42.:27:47.

shopping, it's a totally different demographic. The demographic is

:27:47.:27:51.

typical, it's the Rochdale demographic. But that's a slightly

:27:51.:27:55.

different point you are making, isn't it? The demographic of the

:27:55.:28:03.

player is very relevant and the idea of high street access to gambling

:28:03.:28:08.

compared to resort access to gambling is totally two different

:28:08.:28:14.

aspects. Obviously I don't agree. At the end of the day, I have to pick

:28:14.:28:18.

up Mr Webb on the addiction point. Three things to say - one is that

:28:18.:28:23.

there is no qant final evidence at all that problem gambling is caused

:28:23.:28:28.

by electronic gaming machines -- quantifiable. Commissioned research

:28:28.:28:32.

from the Gambling Commission. They see problem gamblers will bet on a

:28:32.:28:36.

variety of gambling products. You heard what happens on the ground, as

:28:36.:28:40.

Paul described, first thing in the morning, the people there are often

:28:40.:28:44.

jobless, the people who maybe aren't working, disenfranchised looking for

:28:44.:28:47.

the cheap way to get started and they never leave them? I don't think

:28:48.:28:52.

that's indicative of our customer base. We have eight million

:28:52.:28:55.

customers and the vast majority bet safely and responsibly. Why have

:28:55.:29:00.

those who choose to have themselves excluded from the shops to stop them

:29:00.:29:06.

going in them, do half of them then breach that self-exclusion because

:29:06.:29:08.

they are so addicted on the machines? Again, to say that it's

:29:08.:29:16.

addictive is... So they self-exclude and choose to walk back in? There is

:29:16.:29:23.

a variety of gambling things, poker, betting machine shops, but the caps

:29:23.:29:28.

on stakes and prizes doesn't work anywhere else. They tried it in

:29:29.:29:34.

Norway, problem gambling went up. Hard mitigation measures in the

:29:34.:29:38.

shops work, where staff help customers to gamble safely. The cap

:29:38.:29:47.

doesn't work? That's total falsehood. In

:29:47.:29:50.

Australia, they are talking about reducing dam gambling to one dollar

:29:50.:29:54.

maximum on the local access machines. Hasn't been implemented.

:29:54.:29:59.

Well, it should be implemented and there are a lot of politicians

:29:59.:30:04.

supporting that and there's more than adequate evidence of problem

:30:04.:30:08.

gambling so don't keep still hiding the evidence. It does seem odd. If

:30:08.:30:13.

Ireland is on the verge of banning them... They are only banned in

:30:13.:30:17.

shops in Ireland. What will make a difference is what we are trying to

:30:17.:30:21.

do and we are putting out a code of conduct which will be launched soon.

:30:21.:30:25.

Absolute nonsense. It will be about choice. Code of conduct for the

:30:25.:30:29.

customers for those who have the machines? The operators of the

:30:30.:30:34.

machines, we are putting on limits and reminders. Why is that nonsense?

:30:34.:30:39.

None of this works. They had a code of conduct when the machines were

:30:39.:30:44.

legal prior to the 2005 Gambling Act, they introduced the code of

:30:44.:30:48.

conduct then, got around some of the code of conduct provisions and they

:30:48.:30:52.

are going to do the same thing all over. It's smoke and mirrors,

:30:52.:30:57.

totally. The Government can reduce this £100 to £2 today. They need to

:30:57.:31:01.

do that. All right. There could be a moral argument that you are making,

:31:01.:31:05.

but Ben you look at the money this is bringing in, £45,000 a year for

:31:05.:31:11.

the machines in what are depressed high streets, you have got to say

:31:11.:31:14.

nobody's going to give them up, right?

:31:14.:31:21.

The machines can reduce the stake to £2, there 'll be some increase in

:31:21.:31:24.

action on the machines at that level. There 'll be some increase at

:31:24.:31:31.

the counter play. They're less harmful forms of gambling, there's

:31:31.:31:34.

be reductions in problem gambling. Every year, there's a million people

:31:34.:31:40.

who either turn 18 or come into the country who... Why wouldn't you

:31:40.:31:44.

choose to be the good guys in this? You can see how much fear is create

:31:45.:31:50.

bid the machines in the way other countries are treating them. Why

:31:50.:31:54.

wouldn't you choose to have the upper ground and say, we can have a

:31:54.:31:57.

better image for it, rather than waiting for it to be band? It's

:31:57.:32:02.

about image. Because you don't believe they are having any negative

:32:02.:32:07.

social effect... I don't say that at all. You agree with that then?There

:32:07.:32:13.

is some social concern. And you don't care? One problem gambler is

:32:13.:32:20.

one too many. That That's terrible for you to say

:32:20.:32:25.

that. -zblf thank you both very much indeed. For the first time in four

:32:25.:32:29.

years, the number of new homes being built in England has risen.

:32:29.:32:32.

Evidence, the Government says, that it's on the right track in tackling

:32:32.:32:35.

the housing shortage. How much credit, if any, is due to Help to

:32:35.:32:40.

Buy? Luisa Baldini's been to Lancashire and Heathrow to find out.

:32:40.:32:47.

Official figures show house prices are rising across the country. House

:32:47.:32:53.

prices rise at the fastest rate for seven years. Ministers claim the

:32:53.:32:56.

market's turned a corner. London - in a world of its own,

:32:56.:33:02.

seemingly immune to the vagueries of the rest of the property market.

:33:02.:33:09.

But recovery's being seen beyond the capital.

:33:09.:33:14.

Low interest rates and schemes like Help to Buy mean home ownerships

:33:14.:33:19.

more achievable than it's been for years.

:33:19.:33:23.

For those who felt trapped in the rental sector, living with mum or

:33:23.:33:28.

dad or who've wanted to up size but haven't been able to because of the

:33:28.:33:33.

big deposits lenders have required since the credit crunch then Help to

:33:33.:33:37.

Buy will be seen as a knight in shining armour. But there are fears

:33:37.:33:41.

it will distort house prices, creating a similar situation to that

:33:41.:33:46.

just before the credit crunch and that the Government guaranteeing

:33:46.:33:49.

mortgages will leave the taxpayer liable.

:33:49.:33:50.

There are also criticisms that Help liable.

:33:50.:33:56.

to Buy doesn't address a fundamental problem that not enough homes are

:33:56.:34:01.

being built. New figures release today for

:34:01.:34:04.

England show that the number of new homes being built rose by 6% in the

:34:04.:34:10.

three months to June. Housing starts are now 73% above the trough in

:34:10.:34:16.

2009, but that's who % lower than it was before the recession. Critics

:34:16.:34:21.

warn the number of new homes being built are still far smaller than the

:34:21.:34:24.

250,000 or so needed. built are still far smaller than the

:34:24.:34:33.

On the former site of Heathrow's air traffic control in west Drayton, 750

:34:33.:34:38.

now home homes are being built on former Ministry of Defence land.

:34:38.:34:42.

There is community facilities in this building that includes doctor

:34:42.:34:47.

surgeries, some retail, some shops... Bob Weston, the founder and

:34:47.:34:53.

chairman says 20 of the 180 homes he's built here have sold through

:34:53.:34:55.

Help to Buy. He says there's still more that

:34:55.:34:59.

Government could do to help boost supply.

:34:59.:35:04.

We need a real concerted effort to reduce the red tape. It's quite

:35:04.:35:09.

common now that we spend a year getting a planning consent. When we

:35:09.:35:15.

get that consent, there can be upwardly 70 conditions that have to

:35:15.:35:19.

be discharged independently before we can even commence the

:35:20.:35:22.

development. The Government has tried to address

:35:22.:35:26.

stagnation in the housing market with schemes like Help to Buy, the

:35:26.:35:31.

first part launched in April loan equity, is for firstving time and

:35:31.:35:36.

existing buyers, but not for buy to let purchases. A deposit of just 5%

:35:36.:35:46.

is needed for a new build of up tond 3600. The Government lends a loan

:35:46.:35:51.

meaning they need to secure a 75% mortgage. The Government says the

:35:51.:35:56.

schemes are hit with sthouz reservations so far.

:35:56.:36:01.

Although Cambridgeshire's had a reservations so far.

:36:01.:36:04.

significant number of new housing developments, Help to Buy is not an

:36:04.:36:07.

option for 26-year-old Catherine Kidd who lives in a houseshare.

:36:07.:36:14.

She earns £33,000 as a marketing manager at a software company, but

:36:14.:36:22.

her outgoings means she can't save enough for a 5% deposit. There are

:36:22.:36:29.

more properties being built, but my situation is there are a lot of

:36:29.:36:33.

people coming into the City. As a result, house prices remain really

:36:33.:36:35.

people coming into the City. As a high despite the amount of building

:36:36.:36:43.

they are doing. There are wide regional variations

:36:43.:36:46.

when it comes to the property market. In the north-west and

:36:46.:36:50.

somewhere like Accrington in Lancashire, reports of rising house

:36:51.:36:55.

prices are met with blank looks. Prices did recover here after the

:36:55.:37:01.

recession, but anecdotally, they have not risen further. The average

:37:01.:37:05.

price of a terraced house here is about £80,000.

:37:05.:37:09.

I've spoken to four estate agents here in Accrington who say that

:37:09.:37:14.

prices are static. However, they do all report an increase in activity,

:37:14.:37:18.

though given that most of the properties here are not new builds,

:37:18.:37:26.

that's not been through Help to Buy. Lancashire has the highest

:37:26.:37:30.

proportion of empty homes in England. In Accrington, terraces

:37:30.:37:35.

which used to house cotton mill workers now lie derelict. Street

:37:35.:37:39.

after street was due to be demolished until a development

:37:39.:37:43.

company spotted an opportunity to provide an alternative option and a

:37:43.:37:47.

model for the future. They're investing £6 million to refurbish

:37:47.:37:52.

homes for the private rental sector. Our objectives are to create a mix

:37:52.:37:57.

of two, three and four bedroomed family houses for working families

:37:57.:38:01.

who find themselves trapped in the gap between home ownership and

:38:01.:38:06.

social housing. The founder of the company welcomes Government input

:38:06.:38:10.

when it comes to housing strategy, but is worried about long-term

:38:10.:38:15.

stability. My concern with some of the

:38:15.:38:20.

Government initiatives are the potential inflationary impacts of

:38:20.:38:24.

those initiatives because of the relatively short time scales within

:38:24.:38:27.

which ministers want to see the initiatives delivered. For example,

:38:27.:38:31.

this project is being partly funded through a loan from the Homes and

:38:31.:38:35.

Communities Agency. Without that support, we wouldn't have been able

:38:35.:38:38.

to deliver the project. The loan comes with certain conditions around

:38:38.:38:43.

time scales and so on, which if you aggregate into a national level, has

:38:43.:38:47.

the potential to create potential inflationary effects upon the supply

:38:47.:38:50.

chain, the cost of raw materials too, which ultimately can damage the

:38:50.:38:54.

profitability and viability of developments such as this. From

:38:54.:38:58.

January, Help to Buy will be offering a mortgage guarantee scheme

:38:58.:39:03.

to purchase old homes, as well as new, with a deposit of between

:39:03.:39:11.

5-20%, buyers will be able to secure a repayment mortgage for the

:39:11.:39:14.

remainder, part of which the Government will guarantee to the

:39:14.:39:18.

lender. It's this part of the scheme which will provide £130 billion

:39:19.:39:23.

worth of mortgages that's causing alarm with comparisons to the

:39:23.:39:26.

subprime market in the US. Businesses are looking for

:39:26.:39:29.

reassurance about the scheme and Government's going to have the tread

:39:29.:39:32.

carefully when designing it to make sure it really focuses on those who

:39:32.:39:38.

most need it and that it has a suitable exit strategy so business

:39:38.:39:42.

is clear when the scheme will come to an end, so that it doesn't go on

:39:42.:39:47.

for ever. We also might need to think about traditioners by which

:39:47.:39:51.

the scheme may taper off earlier than necessary if the market picks

:39:51.:39:54.

up so we can ensure it doesn't lead to a house price boom. So which one

:39:54.:39:57.

up so we can ensure it doesn't lead is yours? Plot 37 on the end here.

:39:57.:40:04.

It's a three-bedroomed semi detached with an integrated Gar Raj. For

:40:04.:40:10.

D'Alicia and Daryl, Help to Buy's meant they can put down root roots

:40:10.:40:15.

while they make plans to marry next year. They are in their 20s and have

:40:15.:40:19.

been living with D'Alicia's parents. They saw the option of renting as

:40:19.:40:26.

dead money. We wanted to own our own property, so we have been saving.

:40:26.:40:34.

We've had to save up for the 10%, that would have taken us longer. You

:40:34.:40:36.

We've had to save up for the 10%, want your own place, but you still

:40:37.:40:41.

want to afford to have your luxuries like go on holiday and get married,

:40:41.:40:45.

stuff like that. We didn't want to have to spend every last penny on a

:40:45.:40:50.

house that we couldn't afford to pay 10% on.

:40:50.:40:56.

Our economy needs new homings. D'Alicia and Daryl are one of the

:40:56.:41:04.

estimated 220,000 new households formed every year.

:41:04.:41:10.

Given today's building figures, s discrepancy of 110,000 homes. While

:41:10.:41:14.

that short fall prevails, cheaper mortgages and low interest rates are

:41:14.:41:19.

reviving memories and concerns of the previous boom.

:41:19.:41:24.

The difference is, if there's another crash, taxpayers' money is

:41:24.:41:25.

at stake too. Now, a rare new species of mammal's

:41:25.:41:36.

just been discovered and, to clarify, it's not just the same as

:41:36.:41:42.

before, but with a beard. It's two feet long and looks like a cross

:41:42.:41:50.

between a cat and teddy bear. They've been found in the forest of

:41:50.:41:56.

Ecuador and Colombia. Christopher Helgin, this is extraordinary, how

:41:56.:42:01.

did you find it? I first got on the trail of the olangito by finding

:42:01.:42:10.

specimens in the largest museums. I found skips and skulls that didn't

:42:10.:42:14.

match any known animal. They'd been confused with other mammals,

:42:14.:42:18.

especially one called an olingo. I could see in the skips and skulls

:42:18.:42:23.

that they were quite a different animal. So you put this together

:42:23.:42:29.

before you saw nit the flesh? That's exactly right. Close up,

:42:29.:42:36.

they're charming animals. They weigh about a kilo. They are about

:42:36.:42:42.

two-and-a-half feet long and they have long, soft fur and a beautiful

:42:42.:42:48.

rounded face. They are very, very handsome, charming animals and

:42:48.:42:53.

completely overlooked by all zoologists until today. How unusual

:42:53.:43:01.

is it to suddenly find a mall national? We think we have it

:43:01.:43:06.

covered? We talk about extinction, but rarely talk about new

:43:06.:43:10.

discoveries? It does happen. New mammal species are still being

:43:10.:43:13.

discovered. There are plenty of areas still left to explore. Plenty

:43:13.:43:18.

of the world we still want to know a lot more about. But, it's very

:43:18.:43:22.

unusual that a new mammal turns up in this part of the mammal family

:43:22.:43:29.

tree. The olangito is a member of the racoon family. This is part of

:43:29.:43:34.

the tree of life that includes dog, cat and bear family et cetera. The

:43:34.:43:42.

olangito coming as a new species is extremely unusual. When you discover

:43:42.:43:46.

them, do you want to try and encourage their habitats in a lot of

:43:46.:43:49.

different places or do you leave them be and write it in the science

:43:49.:43:56.

books? We didn't want to leave things be.

:43:56.:44:01.

We've spent many years working on this project, in part so that we

:44:01.:44:06.

could today report as much as we could about olangitos and their

:44:06.:44:12.

behaviour and life and habitats they live in. We have learned that they

:44:12.:44:15.

are special Tories a particular kind of habitat in the northern Andes

:44:15.:44:20.

called cloud forest, high elevation forests in Colombia and Ecuador. We

:44:20.:44:32.

don't think that the olangito is going to be extinct, but there are

:44:32.:44:36.

threats to its survival. Well, it's fantastic to talk to you,

:44:36.:44:41.

I can imagine a whole series of little cuddly toy toys olangito

:44:41.:44:49.

shaped, but for now thank you for joining us. I'm going to take you

:44:49.:44:53.

through The Times and some of the front-pages we have got. Cameron

:44:53.:44:59.

targets migrant benefits in E Rich reform talks, says Downing Street

:44:59.:45:00.

targets migrant benefits in E Rich will put curbing the right of EU

:45:00.:45:07.

benefit tos the heart of pending discussions with Brussels. Tougher

:45:07.:45:10.

A-levels pass the grade and it has the picture of the stuntman who you

:45:10.:45:16.

may have seen, the star of 2012, the Olympic Opening Ceremony of course

:45:16.:45:20.

when he made that dramatic entrance along with the Queen. He's hurtled

:45:20.:45:27.

to his death at 155mph, a stunt in the Swiss alps. That is the Daily

:45:27.:45:32.

Telegraph. In The Guardian, university's £1 billion bid for

:45:32.:45:37.

students. Elitist institutions are competing for fees and successful

:45:37.:45:42.

candidates can trade up so they are now in an intense competition to

:45:42.:45:47.

recruit students. We know that the UCAS centre took some 70,000 calls,

:45:47.:45:52.

an extraordinary number of calls coming through and students were

:45:52.:45:55.

trying to find their places. In the Independent, it has this horrifying

:45:55.:45:59.

picture of the scene of what they are calling now the massacre of

:45:59.:46:09.

Cairo. . The bodies in white shrouds waiting to be identified from the

:46:09.:46:16.

makeshift morgues. And the Financial Times sell off as

:46:16.:46:25.

markets expect early Fed move. Expectations of slow start to the

:46:25.:46:29.

economy. That's all tonight. We leave you

:46:29.:46:35.

with more mammals. Good night.

:46:35.:46:40.

Is it time for the world to stop the bloodshed in Egypt? Are gambling machines really like crack cocaine? Why are so few houses being built? What is an Olinguito? With Emily Maitlis.


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