25/09/2013 Newsnight


25/09/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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building of the Olympic Park, now he has been put in charge of

:00:13.:00:16.

another hugely costly bit of public spending. There is a new chairman's

:00:16.:00:21.

weight on the dead man's handle at the HS2, but is the fate of the

:00:21.:00:26.

train now passing from the realm of management to that of politics? The

:00:26.:00:29.

chief executive of this massive project is with us.

:00:29.:00:40.

We report on the persecution of Christians in Egypt, and one of the

:00:40.:00:45.

first foreign journalists to enter the town liberated from Islamist

:00:45.:00:47.

control. Too young to buy a drink and too

:00:47.:00:51.

young to drive, yet Ed Miliband thinks they are quite old enough to

:00:52.:00:56.

vote. Are 16-year-olds? I don't necessarily think 16-year-olds

:00:56.:00:59.

should have a vote, simply because we are not taught enough about

:00:59.:01:15.

politics. Lots more to come in the programme. HS2 the railway line

:01:15.:01:20.

that has achieved the remarkable feat of being endlessly complained

:01:21.:01:24.

about before it is built has a new boss. The new chairman is Sir David

:01:24.:01:30.

hiinggin, a man who moves from one public sector birth as effortlessly

:01:30.:01:37.

as a Bedouin travelling from oasis to oasis. In this case the oasis

:01:37.:01:43.

could turn out to be a mirage. The high-speed line is looking

:01:43.:01:47.

vulnerable. David Grossman explains why this is a new story rather than

:01:47.:01:55.

one for the business pages. By now the mood music surrounding HS2

:01:55.:01:59.

should be something like this, calm, harmonious, efficiency.

:01:59.:02:05.

Unfortunately it sounds more like this. (claanking noises) The

:02:05.:02:11.

Government has struggled to keep this project sounding sweet amid

:02:11.:02:15.

damaging reports and damaging headlines and defections from the

:02:15.:02:22.

cause. Tonight the Department of Transport took decisive action, out

:02:22.:02:28.

goes the chairman and in comes someone with Olympic experience.

:02:28.:02:34.

Out goes the man with experience as an engine and CrossRail. But there

:02:34.:02:39.

were doubts about him being an effective noise voice for HS2, his

:02:39.:02:42.

were doubts about him being an replacement, Mr Higgins was the

:02:42.:02:45.

chairman of the Olympic delivery authority. Personal lie I think the

:02:45.:02:49.

case for HS -- personally I think the case for HS2 is pretty weak. He

:02:49.:02:54.

has been uphill task, his background is with the Olympic

:02:54.:02:57.

has been uphill task, his delivery authority, and Network

:02:57.:02:59.

Rail, both difficult jobs. If anyone can do it he can do it. It

:02:59.:03:03.

is the last throw of the dice. If he can't turn around public views

:03:03.:03:07.

about HS2, I some what suspect the next Government will quietly drop

:03:07.:03:11.

it in some way or another. One big problem is the cost. Recently

:03:11.:03:20.

raised poun 10 billion to -- £10 billion to £42 billion, add in

:03:20.:03:27.

theing stock, and it is £50 -- the rolling stock and it is £50 billion.

:03:27.:03:31.

The public accounts committee of House of Commons have ridiculed the

:03:31.:03:35.

business case produce. Sir David needs to make the case far more

:03:35.:03:40.

robust. An updated business case is due in

:03:41.:03:47.

weeks to answer criticisms made by others among those the National

:03:47.:03:50.

Audit Office. Some say they are confident, but it is not too

:03:50.:03:54.

dramatic to conclude if this business case isn't bulletproof,

:03:54.:03:59.

watertight and utterly compelling, the whole project could be in

:03:59.:04:03.

jeopardy. There needs to be a better case made for HS2. It needs

:04:03.:04:07.

to shift on capacity, the public and politicians have to buy in to

:04:07.:04:14.

it, and David Higgins is an advocate, but it needs to be

:04:14.:04:17.

managed much better. The costs are not as high as people are saying,

:04:17.:04:19.

there is no doubt that Whitehall and the Treasury in particular need

:04:19.:04:23.

more confidence on how the project is managed.

:04:23.:04:28.

Although Labour originally proposed. HS2, tfs the Conservatives that

:04:28.:04:32.

leapt on it, as -- it was the Conservatives that lept on it, as a

:04:32.:04:37.

way of not expanding Heathrow and positive messages on regeneration.

:04:37.:04:42.

But there are signs of fracturing. On Monday Ed Balls made a marked

:04:42.:04:46.

move away from the project. It is not just whether a new high-speed

:04:46.:04:50.

line is a good idea or a bad idea, but whether it is the best way to

:04:50.:04:55.

spend £50 billion for the further tour of our country. The politics

:04:55.:05:01.

of this has evolved, it used to be broadly speaking north of England

:05:01.:05:05.

in favour, south of England less keen. However, there has been a

:05:05.:05:09.

growing realisation among some northern cities that once the new

:05:09.:05:13.

line is built their regular train service will become some what less

:05:13.:05:17.

regular. Added to that there are various academic studies that

:05:18.:05:20.

suggest that the real economic benefits will go to the south and

:05:20.:05:24.

not the north. For example, today at the Labour

:05:24.:05:29.

Party Conference in a BBC Daily Politics survey on HS2, Lord

:05:29.:05:32.

Prescott gave us his view. Why Politics survey on HS2, Lord

:05:32.:05:36.

cancel it? Because it isn't going to do anything for the north. The

:05:36.:05:39.

Government says it is still completely committed to the project.

:05:39.:05:43.

But today conceded that the HS2 bill might not have cleared

:05:43.:05:46.

parliament before the next election, which could make it a huge

:05:46.:05:49.

political issue come polling day. If Labour were to scrap it, they

:05:49.:05:55.

would have an extra £16 billion they could reassign to other

:05:55.:06:00.

infrastructure projects in their manifesto. That may ultimately

:06:00.:06:05.

prove an irresistable temptation. With us now is McAllister Munro,

:06:05.:06:10.

chief executive of the H -- McAllisteren to Munro, chief

:06:10.:06:16.

executive of the HS2 project. A bit of desperation to change chairman

:06:16.:06:19.

like this? No I see it as confidence in the project, that we

:06:19.:06:23.

will have the hybrid bill by the end of the year, and secondly that

:06:23.:06:26.

we are seriously looking forward to the next stage of the project, the

:06:26.:06:30.

build process and also moving forward into construction. Why has

:06:30.:06:34.

your current chairman been replaced? Our current chairman has

:06:34.:06:38.

done a fantastic job in getting us to this point, where we will be

:06:38.:06:42.

ready to deposit the hybrid bill by the end of the year. That is a key

:06:42.:06:45.

milestone, but we do then move on to a next phase. He has taken the

:06:45.:06:49.

decision that now is a good point for him to stand down. I can't

:06:49.:06:53.

think of a better possible successor to dough than Sir David -

:06:53.:07:01.

- Doug than Sir David Higgins after the success of the Olympics. Moving

:07:01.:07:05.

forward into now construction. When you say the new chairman's first

:07:05.:07:10.

priority will be scrutinising costs, he's scrutinising fiction, isn't

:07:10.:07:14.

he? I would expect him to be scrutinising costs. We have

:07:14.:07:17.

obviously had a lost of debate about costs. You don't know what

:07:17.:07:21.

they are? We would expect a new chairman to reassure himself on

:07:22.:07:23.

costs. You don't know what the chairman to reassure himself on

:07:23.:07:27.

final costs will be? We have made a thorough estimates of the costs and

:07:27.:07:29.

final costs will be? We have made a looked at the various risks around

:07:29.:07:33.

the costs, that is all allowed for in the contingency element, a large

:07:33.:07:36.

part of the increase we have seen. We have looked again at the risks,

:07:36.:07:39.

the Government has decided to set a budget that does cover the

:07:40.:07:43.

foreseeable risks in the projbt. We know we can proceed -- project. We

:07:43.:07:48.

know we can proceed with the cost envelope. Why is it then that so

:07:48.:07:52.

many politicians have lost faith in you? We have still got strong

:07:52.:07:55.

support among politicians. The Prime Minister is still very

:07:55.:07:58.

strongly supportive, so the Chancellor, the Deputy Prime

:07:58.:08:02.

Minister. If you actually listen to what Labour...This Was dreamed up

:08:03.:08:05.

by Labour when in Government? And adopted by the coalition. And you

:08:05.:08:11.

saw very clearly what happened this week when one person after another

:08:11.:08:17.

in the Labour shadow team distanced themselves and said we're not going

:08:17.:08:20.

to be behind this if the costs go any higher than they are now? I'm

:08:20.:08:24.

not at all surprised they say that, we are not expecting the costs to

:08:24.:08:29.

go higher. You probably weren't expecting them to go any higher

:08:29.:08:33.

when you originally put in the wrong estimate? We have started

:08:33.:08:36.

four-and-a-half years ago with a complete blank sheet with the

:08:36.:08:39.

project. At an early stage there are obviously risks. As we have

:08:39.:08:43.

gone forward we have done more work on the costs. We have a robust cost

:08:43.:08:47.

estimate now. We have a more significant contingency allowance,

:08:47.:08:50.

we are confident we can deliver within that. If you listen

:08:50.:08:51.

carefully to what has been said within that. If you listen

:08:51.:08:54.

this week, they are not actually saying they don't support high-

:08:54.:08:57.

speed rail. They are saying it has to be value for money. They won't

:08:57.:09:00.

speed rail. They are saying it has support it beyond £50 billion? We

:09:00.:09:04.

are determined to deliver it beyond that. I'm sure one of the first

:09:04.:09:07.

things Sir David Higgins will want to do is look closely at the

:09:07.:09:11.

project and how we make sure we do deliver it within the cost envelope.

:09:11.:09:14.

Isn't the truth of the matter that you some how took it for granted

:09:14.:09:18.

that you would always have Government and the political class

:09:18.:09:21.

generally behind you, and therefore failed to make the business case

:09:21.:09:26.

for HS2? We have always recognised this is bound to be a hugely

:09:26.:09:30.

controversial project, it will always be a political issue. There

:09:30.:09:34.

has been a lot of debate up until now. It has increased recently. But

:09:34.:09:38.

it has always been a political project. We do recognise, we need

:09:38.:09:40.

to make the case for strongly, I project. We do recognise, we need

:09:40.:09:43.

think the case is compelling, when you really look at it. When you

:09:43.:09:46.

look at the growth we have seen in the railways, a doubling in the

:09:46.:09:49.

number of people using the railways over the last 15 years, that growth

:09:50.:09:53.

continuing, there is no alternative that will actually provide the

:09:53.:09:56.

capacity this country needs in the future. And I think when you look

:09:56.:09:59.

at it carefully that is the conclusion you come to, of course

:09:59.:10:03.

we will have faith in it. According to you, what would happen to the

:10:03.:10:07.

country if it weren't built? If it is not built the railway will

:10:07.:10:10.

become increasingly crowded, hard choices would have to be made about

:10:10.:10:14.

what services run, where the trains stop, that will be a break on

:10:14.:10:18.

economic growth. If you look at what the OECD say, the World

:10:18.:10:22.

Economic Forum, they come to the conclusion that strong economists

:10:22.:10:26.

need a good transport infrastructure. That includes the

:10:26.:10:28.

railway structure. How big a setback will it be for Britain if

:10:28.:10:32.

it weren't built? It would be serious, what would happen is it

:10:32.:10:36.

would delay it. You can do incremental improvements keeping

:10:36.:10:39.

you going for a few years, sooner or later you get to the point where

:10:39.:10:43.

you can't keep adding to the existing railway. We are currently

:10:43.:10:44.

you can't keep adding to the working on a railway built in

:10:44.:10:48.

Victorian times T has done us a very good service, but we can't

:10:48.:10:51.

live on that through the 21st century and beyond. At some point

:10:51.:10:55.

we are going to have to invest in additional capacity. We need to

:10:55.:10:58.

really do it now, so that we have the capacity there in the time that

:10:58.:11:02.

we need it when we meet that capacity crunch in the middle of

:11:02.:11:06.

the next decade. If this project gets can I Bosched, because people

:11:06.:11:11.

-- kiboshed because people decide it is too expensive, how long would

:11:12.:11:16.

it set us back, you have presumably done all the sums? We and the

:11:16.:11:19.

Department of Network Rail, all forecasts, it will need this

:11:19.:11:23.

capacity in the middle of the next decade. At some point? Even

:11:23.:11:27.

planning now, with the process West need to go through, the period we

:11:27.:11:31.

need for con-- we need to go through and the period for

:11:31.:11:33.

construction, we need to plan for the middle of the decade. Planning

:11:33.:11:37.

now we have the new capacity when we need it. You could do

:11:37.:11:40.

incremental improvements, but sooner or later you have to make a

:11:40.:11:43.

incremental improvements, but really big increase in capacity.

:11:43.:11:46.

What is the feeling reason the organisation, you can sniff the

:11:46.:11:51.

wind, there has been a change of mood about HS2, do you feel that it

:11:51.:11:56.

is definitely going to happen? I'm very positive it will happen. I

:11:56.:11:59.

think there will continue to be debate, and we have to continue to

:11:59.:12:03.

show that we can deliver it for the cost. We have to continue to make

:12:03.:12:07.

the case for the benefits. As I say when you look at the case carefully,

:12:07.:12:10.

when you look at the alternatives, you believe that even if it got

:12:10.:12:14.

delayed people would decide sooner or later this is actually the only

:12:14.:12:17.

long-term solution. I don't think anyone would actually thank us in

:12:17.:12:22.

10-20 years time and look back and say why didn't they actually invest

:12:22.:12:25.

when they could. You are making the case but not talking like a woman

:12:25.:12:29.

who is certain it will happen? I believe very strongly it is going

:12:29.:12:32.

to happen, yes I absolutely do. That is why I'm doing the job. I'm

:12:32.:12:37.

sure that is why Sir David Higgins, coming in as chairman, he believes,

:12:37.:12:41.

he has made clear himself that he and his role in Network Rail does

:12:41.:12:43.

he has made clear himself that he not believe we can continue just to

:12:43.:12:46.

patch and mend the existing railway. That we do need to make this step

:12:46.:12:50.

change and deliver some new capacity and new railway lines and

:12:50.:12:54.

he's fully supportive of HS2 and sees that as a solution.

:12:54.:12:59.

Thank you very much. Sir David Higgins's on Radio 4's Today

:12:59.:13:02.

Programme tomorrow. The Archbishop of Canterbury has called the 80

:13:03.:13:06.

victims of the suicide bomb attack in Pakistan martyrs, since they

:13:06.:13:09.

were targeted because of their beliefs.

:13:09.:13:13.

They are not alone. Police in Egypt say they are pursuing Islamist

:13:13.:13:17.

extremists who have incited attacks on Christian targets there. The

:13:18.:13:22.

army has now retaken one town south of Cairo, Dalga, which had been

:13:22.:13:26.

under Islamist control. Some Christians are still afraid to

:13:26.:13:29.

return home. We have the first foreign reporter to enter the town

:13:29.:13:37.

its recapture. The film contains graphic images of victims killed in

:13:37.:13:42.

the vie lnt attacks. 1600 years of Christian history, reduced to a

:13:42.:13:47.

blackened ruin. This is what's left of the monastery of the Virgin Mary

:13:47.:13:56.

in St Abraham in Dalga, after a Muslim mob attacked it last month.

:13:56.:13:59.

On the 14th of August. Came to the Muslim mob attacked it last month.

:13:59.:14:10.

front door and they were calling for Jihad. They broke through the

:14:10.:14:15.

main door and they entered the monastery. They went everywhere

:14:15.:14:23.

here and they stole everything in the church and the building, and

:14:23.:14:32.

also they when they finished stealing they burned the place.

:14:32.:14:37.

Christians here say it was revenge for the Coptic church's support for

:14:37.:14:41.

the overthrow of the Islamist Government. Payback for the killing

:14:41.:14:45.

of hundreds of Islamists by the police. Relations between

:14:45.:14:47.

Christians and Muslims here have often been uneasy, but the

:14:47.:14:50.

upheavals of the last two years, both in Egypt and elsewhere in the

:14:50.:14:54.

Middle East have now led to a much deeper fracturing of society, that

:14:54.:15:00.

many feel won't easily be repaired. A horrifying video shows the body

:15:00.:15:05.

of one Christian from Dalga, a local barber, killed and later

:15:05.:15:08.

reported to be dragged through the streets behind a tractor. The

:15:08.:15:12.

victim's cousin, a lawyer, has now fled to Cairo, fearing the same

:15:12.:15:16.

fate. TRANSLATION: They attacked his

:15:16.:15:22.

house, he tried to defend himself. They killed him inside the house.

:15:22.:15:26.

They dragged his body out, they stole everything in his house and

:15:27.:15:31.

mine. For two month after the police were chased out in early

:15:32.:15:36.

July this dusty backwater between the Nile and the desert became an

:15:36.:15:42.

independent outpost of Islamism, or simply anarchy. Christians like

:15:42.:15:46.

this farm worker who fled with his family to live on a building site

:15:46.:15:51.

on a nearby village describe the climate of intimidation where they

:15:51.:15:53.

were robbed or forced to pay protection money.

:15:54.:15:59.

TRANSLATION: There was this coffee shop that opened at 11.00, all the

:15:59.:16:05.

thiefs and thugs went there and afterwards they roamed around,

:16:05.:16:09.

opening whatever doors they could, or jumping over walls. If they

:16:09.:16:13.

found any of your belongings they took them. Another refuge, also too

:16:13.:16:20.

scared to show his face says the criminals have political backing,

:16:20.:16:26.

he has no proof. TRANSLATION: The thugs in the town were supported by

:16:26.:16:30.

the Muslim Brotherhood, they were giving weapons and money, because

:16:30.:16:33.

it was in their interests to loot our houses and spread chaos.

:16:33.:16:38.

Now order has been restored. Troops and police recaptured Dalga with

:16:39.:16:43.

little resistance last week, making a series of arrests and

:16:43.:16:48.

confiscating guns. Their job is not over yet, suddenly

:16:48.:16:53.

there is an alert and we're off with police Special Forces on the

:16:53.:16:58.

trail of more armed arsonists or looters. They stake out a house.

:16:58.:17:03.

There is distant gunfire, and soon another suspect has been rounded up

:17:03.:17:07.

for questioning. The state's finally stamped its authority on

:17:07.:17:09.

for questioning. The state's this town, trying to prove there is

:17:09.:17:13.

nowhere in Egypt where its writ does not run. But the crackdown may

:17:13.:17:18.

simply provoke a violent insurgency that will rumble on for many years.

:17:19.:17:24.

Today though it is mainly donkey carts that are rumbling on. One man

:17:24.:17:30.

gives the four-fringeered salute that symbolised opposition to the

:17:31.:17:37.

military leaders. You will find no Islamist representatives here,

:17:37.:17:41.

those accused of inciting violence on Christians have fled or melted

:17:41.:17:42.

back into the crowd. And prominent on Christians have fled or melted

:17:43.:17:48.

Muslims here deny the Muslim Brotherhood or anyone else ordered

:17:48.:17:53.

the attacks. TRANSLATION: They were thieves stealing for their own

:17:53.:17:57.

benefits. They didn't have any other motive, no-one was supporting

:17:57.:18:04.

them. TRANSLATION: Some mosques called for Jihad at the Muslim

:18:04.:18:06.

Brotherhood protests in Cairo, because many people were killed

:18:06.:18:10.

there. But thieves and thugs here took that as a license to go and

:18:10.:18:15.

get what they wanted for themselves. So the message was misunderstood,

:18:15.:18:17.

get what they wanted for themselves. we have always lived in harmony

:18:17.:18:23.

with the Christians and we work together.

:18:23.:18:31.

# Mor circumstance -- Morsi The Islamist challenge

:18:31.:18:35.

terrifies many Christians, it hasn't been suppressed here but the

:18:35.:18:40.

Brotherhood has been banned. A movement that was the legitimate

:18:40.:18:44.

leaders of this country has been res duced to flash mobs in villages

:18:44.:18:51.

like Dalga, but they turn out nightly at the provincialal

:18:51.:18:54.

governor's house up the road they are taking noens chas. The security

:18:54.:19:00.

is as tight as in the 1990s, when the Mubarak dictatorships was here.

:19:00.:19:05.

I'm going to see the former police chief and now the governor, who

:19:05.:19:09.

believes now as then Egypt is facing an international terrorist

:19:09.:19:12.

conspiracy. We feel in Egypt there is this war against Egypt, the big

:19:12.:19:18.

organisation, outside, the strategy comes from outside, using local

:19:18.:19:24.

people by giving them money by giving them weapons. The fanatics

:19:25.:19:33.

use this area because there is no education, there is no money, there

:19:33.:19:44.

is no jobs. They try to push fanatic principles. They make big

:19:44.:19:48.

problems between some of the Christians and some of the Muslims.

:19:48.:19:56.

Christians, a third of the population in the province have

:19:56.:20:01.

long lived side-by-side with Muslim neighbours. Poverty unites them,

:20:01.:20:06.

illiteracy here is almost 50%. Even after weeks of living out of bags

:20:06.:20:10.

and baskets, the Christians who fled Dalga are refusing to go home.

:20:10.:20:14.

The police didn't protect them when the violence started here, and may

:20:14.:20:19.

not protect them now from a further round of revenge. TRANSLATION: The

:20:19.:20:22.

Government and the police are saying it is safe, but they will

:20:22.:20:26.

not stay in Dalga forever, and the gangs are saying as soon as they

:20:26.:20:31.

leave they will be retaliating. Back in Dalga, they say it will

:20:31.:20:36.

take years to rebuild the monastery, one of the dozens of churches

:20:37.:20:43.

attacked in Egypt in recent weeks. We had hoped to speak to the Muslim

:20:43.:20:47.

Brotherhood, but we can't do so tonight. I'm joined instead from

:20:47.:20:54.

Birmingham by my best who is chair of the United Cops in the UK. And

:20:54.:21:02.

the political editor of Middle East Magazine. How frightened are

:21:02.:21:08.

Christians in Egypt? Thank you Jeremy. The Christians had years of

:21:08.:21:18.

threats and intimidation, coercion and killing which went unpunished

:21:18.:21:24.

for years. There was a culture of impunity, and everyone is saying

:21:24.:21:28.

that Egypt is an Islamic country and he's the leader of the Islamic

:21:28.:21:32.

country. Since then the Islamists felt they had the upper hand. Then

:21:32.:21:37.

Hosni Mubarak came, during his time he kept a tight rein on the

:21:37.:21:42.

Islamists, but he overlooked their attacks on Christians. There is a

:21:42.:21:48.

long history of fear and intimidation. Really there is a

:21:48.:21:52.

culture of persecuting Christians by, I'm not saying by the whole of

:21:52.:21:59.

the Muslim population, of course not. There is even a new

:21:59.:22:05.

organisation in here in England which is the Egyptian Committee for

:22:05.:22:14.

the Defence of the Secular State, including Muslims and Christians,

:22:14.:22:18.

I'm part of it. I'm the deputy of the Union of the Coptic

:22:19.:22:24.

Organisation in Europe. There is actually the fear from the

:22:24.:22:27.

Organisation in Europe. There is Islamists coming from in societies

:22:27.:22:32.

where there is poverty and where there is unrest as well. Let me

:22:32.:22:38.

bring in my guest here, if you don't mind. Who do you think was

:22:38.:22:43.

behind these attacks, or is behind these continuing attacks? It is

:22:43.:22:49.

difficult when you collect evidence to pin it on an organisation. It is

:22:49.:22:54.

always easier to stand in court for individuals, like we had with the

:22:54.:23:03.

IRA and Sinn Fein. Circumstance standing evidence, the Muslim

:23:03.:23:08.

Brotherhood have not -- circumstantial evidence, the Muslim

:23:08.:23:12.

Brotherhood when they came out and they didn't renounce past

:23:12.:23:15.

terrorists or give an instruction to their followers saying we

:23:15.:23:22.

dislike that Morsi was overthrown, let's protest peacefully and hold a

:23:22.:23:25.

vigil. It is, although there is no let's protest peacefully and hold a

:23:25.:23:31.

hard evidence, but in one night you had hundreds of churches being

:23:31.:23:37.

burned down and attacked. Sow the organisation is there. Do you think

:23:37.:23:44.

looking back on it, it was wise for so many Coptic Christians in Egypt

:23:44.:23:49.

to support what was effectively a military coup against the Muslim

:23:49.:23:55.

Brotherhood? First of all this was not a military coup, this was a

:23:55.:24:02.

response to the popular demand. I shouldn't have used the word Coup",

:24:02.:24:09.

military intervention then, was it -- "coup", military intervention

:24:09.:24:11.

military intervention then, was it then. Was it unwise? The Muslim

:24:11.:24:15.

Brotherhood reduced the democracy to a pan tokcy. They used --

:24:15.:24:25.

panatocracy, they abused the ballot. Before that this was the last step

:24:25.:24:28.

in democracy, before that there should be a culture of equality,

:24:29.:24:37.

freedom, freedom of all freedom. Justice for all. No-one should be

:24:37.:24:42.

persecuting minorities because they are peaceful. The Christians of

:24:42.:24:46.

course they never started a fight or retaliated in a fight. They kept

:24:46.:24:53.

losing their property and families. Let me interrupt you then and bring

:24:53.:24:58.

in my guest. Can Egypt be surprised this is what has happened? It is

:24:58.:25:03.

not a surprise, I mean there is no surprise. I am a bit surprised they

:25:03.:25:11.

took it out on fellow Christians rather than...but then it goes into

:25:11.:25:17.

the pattern of thinking if you read the literature of the Muslim

:25:17.:25:19.

Brotherhood, or the meetings, tomorrow there is an interesting

:25:19.:25:23.

piece in the Egyptian Independent of a meeting of the global

:25:23.:25:28.

organisation that took part in Istanbul this week and in Lahore

:25:28.:25:33.

and Pakistan. Part of the thinking is if they have enough strife and

:25:33.:25:41.

sectarian conflict, then the world will pay attention and they hope

:25:41.:25:47.

for intervention, not quite Libyan- style, something like that, to put

:25:47.:25:53.

enough pressure on an American-led intervention to pressurise the

:25:53.:25:56.

interim Government and reinstate Morsi. Its not a coherent thinking

:25:56.:26:01.

but that is exchanged in meetings with the Muslim Brotherhood.

:26:01.:26:09.

Thank you very much both of you. In all the noise and heat generated

:26:09.:26:13.

by Ed Miliband's declaration yesterday that if he was Prime

:26:13.:26:17.

Minister he would cap energy prices. One thing seems to have escaped

:26:17.:26:22.

everybody's notice, he committed the party to giving the vote to 16-

:26:22.:26:26.

year-olds, they are already getting it in the Scotland's independence

:26:26.:26:30.

referendum, and in Argentina and Ecuador they can vote. Are

:26:30.:26:34.

teenagers more mature there, and if not why hasn't it happened here

:26:34.:26:41.

before. The first time British voters will have been to the polls

:26:41.:26:44.

on their way to school. 1969 and the last major change to our voting

:26:44.:26:50.

system. I shall certainly be voting Conservative.

:26:50.:26:53.

Harold Wilson cut the voting age from 21 just in time for the

:26:53.:26:56.

general election. Which he then went on to lose to Edward Heath.

:26:56.:27:01.

They are not satisfied. Now the Labour Party wants to have another

:27:01.:27:06.

pop at extending the franchise, buried in Ed Miliband's speech

:27:06.:27:10.

yesterday, plans to give all 16- year-olds their turn at the ballot

:27:10.:27:14.

box. Friends, friends, let's give a voice to these young people in our

:27:14.:27:19.

party. Let's give a voice to these young people in our democracy.

:27:19.:27:24.

Let's give the vote to 16 and 17- year-olds and make them part of our

:27:24.:27:29.

democracy. We're always told today's teenagers

:27:29.:27:33.

are an apolitical lot, distrustful of those suits in Westminster. So

:27:33.:27:40.

Newsnight took our own totally unscientific focus group across the

:27:40.:27:44.

road to the pool club. At 16 you can pay taxes, join the

:27:44.:27:48.

armed force, get married and have sex, if you can do all of this at

:27:48.:27:55.

16 why are you not vote? I don't necessarily think that 16-year-olds

:27:55.:27:57.

should have a vote, because they are not taught enough about

:27:57.:28:03.

politics. But this is a generation barely alive in the year 2000, what

:28:04.:28:10.

do they know and what do they want from the Government. This is going

:28:10.:28:13.

to be way more fun I promise than a game of pool. What we have here in

:28:13.:28:17.

front of us is a very rough idea about the amount the Government

:28:17.:28:21.

spends. What we want you to do is take these chips and work out if

:28:21.:28:25.

this is the way as 16 and 17-year- olds you would like to see

:28:25.:28:28.

Government money spent, or if there is a better way of spending

:28:28.:28:32.

Government money. The only thing we can cut and agree on would be

:28:32.:28:40.

benefits, don't you think so? No. No. Benefits affects thousands of

:28:40.:28:44.

people. One quick question, how much benefits would we cut and

:28:44.:28:49.

where to put it. Not enough, we have to contribute more to housing.

:28:49.:28:53.

Pensions are you going to use the healthcare any way, pensioners are

:28:53.:28:56.

more likely to be using the healthcare than us any way. Exactly.

:28:56.:29:02.

If you work for 60 years in the plek sector and you work day in day

:29:02.:29:05.

out, you shouldn't have that money cut, you are entitled to that

:29:05.:29:10.

amount of money. Pensions have been one of the simple areas not cut,

:29:10.:29:14.

and I'm actually, sorry, I'm fuming for the simple fact that pensions

:29:14.:29:18.

do need to get some sort of cuts on it. OK, OK. You will have to all

:29:18.:29:25.

stop talking now. Can I have a bit of quiet, your time is totally up.

:29:26.:29:30.

You guys have been brilliant, massive disagreement, I think it is

:29:30.:29:33.

fair to say between you all. We are going to have to take a vote on it

:29:33.:29:37.

and do it democratically. Who thinks money can come out of the

:29:37.:29:41.

health budget? No. That is, benefits who round here thinks

:29:41.:29:47.

benefits could be cut. So all of you, does no-one think benefits

:29:47.:29:55.

shutd be protected. -- should be protected? I do. That is enough? Is

:29:55.:30:01.

that an agreement. Where is it going? Health and education.

:30:01.:30:10.

Housing? National debt, some to pay back the national debt. There we go,

:30:10.:30:14.

who thinks money could come out of education anyone think that? No way.

:30:14.:30:19.

Who thinks money could come out of defence? Yes. Take it all. We need

:30:19.:30:25.

one gun. Where does this go? Education, health, housing. The

:30:25.:30:35.

final one, who round here thinks money could be cut out of pension,

:30:35.:30:43.

four of you. No-one else? Five don't think it should be cut. What

:30:43.:30:49.

is the deciding vote? Of course. Money is coming out of pensions,

:30:49.:30:58.

only just. Not that much. Too much? That much. Less than that.

:30:58.:31:05.

No, no, no. Take it back, take it back. This is coming out of your

:31:05.:31:15.

gran and granddad's purse. Where is it going? More on housing and

:31:15.:31:20.

health. That's fine. Education gets it and one payback for the national

:31:20.:31:23.

debt. You have just solved our deficit

:31:23.:31:30.

problem, well done guys! But it is one thing to get teenagers like

:31:30.:31:33.

this interested in politics, another to get them to the ballot

:31:33.:31:37.

box. They might be angry, they might be passionate, but that

:31:37.:31:40.

doesn't mean that given the chance they would bother to vote. Now to

:31:40.:31:47.

the best known female architect in the world, in a traditionally male-

:31:47.:31:55.

dominated profession, Zaha Hadid stands out. She designed the

:31:55.:31:58.

Aquatic Centre for the Olympics. Her buildings are mainly abroad

:31:58.:32:02.

which tells us something about Britain. Her first in central

:32:02.:32:06.

London opened today a small yet remarkable addition to a Napoleonic

:32:06.:32:13.

addition to the Serpentine. I guess it is a reasonable punt that it

:32:13.:32:18.

would gave Prince Charles nightmares. I went to see her

:32:18.:32:29.

latest creation this afternoon. There is no mistaking her buildings.

:32:29.:32:34.

They are structures which sometimes hardly seem like structures at all.

:32:34.:32:42.

My early work was influenced by the Russian avant-garde, the residue of

:32:42.:32:46.

that work was how to liberate ourselves from certain things to do

:32:46.:33:01.

with gravity. As an architect you have to have

:33:01.:33:03.

with gravity. some idea about structure. The cafe

:33:03.:33:09.

at the Serpentine Calgary is tiny in comparison with some other build

:33:09.:33:15.

-- gall gree, is tiny -- gallery, is tiny compared to her buildings,

:33:15.:33:21.

but it is definitely her's? What will people say about the gallery?

:33:21.:33:24.

I don't know, I think it is very important to invest in the public

:33:24.:33:34.

domain. For people to enjoy t it is nice to be in the park with

:33:35.:33:39.

transparency with a light roof. I thought it was extraordinary. I'med

:33:39.:33:43.

glad. Do you think in this country we have become more sophisticated

:33:43.:33:48.

about architecture? I think there is more sophisticated opinions

:33:48.:33:50.

about architecture, but I don't think the buildings are more

:33:51.:33:55.

sophisticated. There are some. There are at least, there are some

:33:55.:34:00.

towers you know, some high rise which you know 20 years ago it

:34:00.:34:05.

would have been impossible. And so maybe that will, that investment

:34:05.:34:12.

would allow for new models to be developed. But it is interesting

:34:12.:34:16.

isn't it the way in which Prince Charles, for example, can tap into

:34:16.:34:20.

what he knows to be an instinctive feeling among very many people in

:34:20.:34:25.

the street that oh modern architecture, it is horrible? I

:34:25.:34:28.

don't think people in the street feel that way. I think that the

:34:28.:34:34.

modernity, and the modernism they know is based on what they have

:34:34.:34:37.

here, which was never a great example. There is some good

:34:37.:34:43.

buildings done by Norman Foster, Richard Rogers, others what I call

:34:43.:34:47.

high-tech of that period very important buildings. Michael

:34:47.:34:55.

Hopkins, people like that. I think that they respond to these

:34:55.:35:00.

buildings which were done post-war, very quickly, social housing, which

:35:00.:35:05.

was done you know not forgetting that time there were slum, this

:35:05.:35:09.

there were people whose houses were bomb, they had to build quite fast

:35:09.:35:14.

and they responded in that way. This is your first building in

:35:14.:35:19.

central London? It is. You had this reputation for years and years for

:35:19.:35:22.

designing buildings that weren't built. What was that like? It was

:35:22.:35:26.

really not very nice. Because I always thought they were in the

:35:26.:35:32.

realm of possibility. I think that is one of the reasons I persevered

:35:32.:35:37.

and the people with me in the office obviously had amazing belief

:35:37.:35:42.

toe stick it out. Because it was very hard times. In the 1990s Zaha

:35:42.:35:47.

Hadid won the commission to design the Cardiff Bay Opera House, but

:35:47.:35:54.

local politicians clocked it amid a predictable chorus from media

:35:54.:35:59.

yahoos that her work was elitist. That was very bad. You know I have

:35:59.:36:07.

to think about these things in a positive way. There was nothing

:36:07.:36:10.

positive about it. The only positive thing about it is it made

:36:10.:36:14.

people, who didn't know me or my work have an opinion. Good or bad.

:36:14.:36:21.

And enormous support. People in the street, I mean you know, I still

:36:21.:36:27.

have people coming to me in restaurants saying, that was a

:36:27.:36:30.

terrible moment. If they are Welsh they are always apologising. One of

:36:30.:36:34.

her more controversial projects opened this month in Azerbaijan.

:36:34.:36:43.

The Haydar Cultural Centre is a remarkable build, but it is

:36:43.:36:46.

dedicated to the personality cult of the autocrat who turned the

:36:46.:36:51.

country into a family business. Building or designing buildings

:36:51.:36:58.

which glorify regimes which are unsympathetic, the famous one is

:36:58.:37:04.

the Cultural Centre in Baku, which glorfies a tyrant? It is a cultural

:37:04.:37:09.

centre and open to the public, you know, people name libraries after

:37:09.:37:14.

centre and open to the public, you American Presidents. You are not

:37:14.:37:18.

compare? Not comparing them but I just think that, I think you have

:37:18.:37:26.

to be very strategic about whether you deprive the public as well from

:37:26.:37:33.

the public domain or you know, I'm not doing a private house for

:37:33.:37:37.

everybody, I'm doing a public building with a concert hall or

:37:37.:37:43.

library, museum. But it is in honour of a man with the most

:37:43.:37:46.

atrocious human rights record? With his name, yes. I can't change that.

:37:46.:37:52.

You could choose not to build it? Well if it was a private house

:37:52.:37:56.

somewhere like that it is a problem. But I will choose for example I

:37:56.:37:58.

think it is more contentious to But I will choose for example I

:37:58.:38:12.

build a prison anywhere. I was reading about Shelter to

:38:12.:38:18.

build nice housing, good work space. Good public buildings, because I

:38:18.:38:21.

build nice housing, good work space. think that not everybody in the

:38:21.:38:24.

world has the privilege of travelling and seeing extraordinary

:38:24.:38:27.

things and I think it is very important to make things like that

:38:27.:38:31.

and more immediately in their domain. Do you think as a nation we

:38:31.:38:35.

are more receptive to that idea now than we used to be? I don't think

:38:35.:38:40.

so. You don't? No. I think that the majority of work in the UK is

:38:40.:38:47.

corporate. And it is very bad, America was build on amazing

:38:47.:38:49.

corporate buildings. Office towers in New York and Chicago. So you can

:38:49.:38:56.

do great things here as well. And housing, that dilemma is different.

:38:56.:39:02.

You are relying on your no-how of the client, the developer, it has a

:39:02.:39:06.

-- know-how of the client, the developer, it has a different

:39:06.:39:08.

-- know-how of the client, the dynamic. It is a jolly building,

:39:08.:39:11.

you should go. The United States has won the America's Cup, the

:39:11.:39:15.

competition for one of the very oldest sporting trophies burst into

:39:15.:39:19.

life yesterday as the United States team came storming back after a

:39:19.:39:24.

series of defeats in which the New Zealanders had made their catamaran

:39:24.:39:31.

look like a Lyle low with a serious -- lilo with a serious puncture.

:39:31.:39:36.

This sort of racing is like tearing up £50 notes while standing fully

:39:36.:39:41.

clothed under a full shower. Our reporter who has the slob's job of

:39:41.:39:46.

writing what he has been watching on the telly with those in the

:39:46.:39:50.

Guardian, shares it interest, he will explain why. Remember him?

:39:50.:39:56.

Four-times Olympic Chancellor I don't know, Ben Ainslie, Sir Ben

:39:56.:40:01.

Ainslie. Done it all, knighted by the age of 36, probably smoking his

:40:01.:40:06.

pipe and telling stories by the fire now, right? Wrong. He has been

:40:06.:40:10.

involved in one of the most remarkable sporting turn arounds

:40:10.:40:14.

since Liverpool won the Champions League in 2005. Nine days ago or

:40:14.:40:19.

kal team USA were 7-1 down to League in 2005. Nine days ago or

:40:19.:40:25.

Emirates team New Zealand. The Kiwis needed to win one more race

:40:25.:40:30.

and they would go home with the America's Cup, the biggest prize in

:40:30.:40:35.

sail. Enter our Ben, brought in by the or kal team as tactition. --

:40:35.:40:47.

They found another gear, outwigt the Kiwis and beating the Kiwis. It

:40:47.:40:52.

is a game of chess on a boat, and the Kiwis and beating the Kiwis. It

:40:52.:40:58.

Ben has learned how to be a grand chess master. He has an uncanny

:40:58.:41:02.

ability to look at the racecourse and opposition and know how to put

:41:02.:41:10.

them away. The America's Cup hasn't always been like this. It started

:41:10.:41:15.

in 1851 as a race around the Isle of Wight. Since when it hasn't

:41:15.:41:20.

bothered the public conscience too much, an alleged activity for toffs

:41:20.:41:25.

with an awful lot of money. Too often it was about bending the

:41:25.:41:29.

rules than the wave, when it made it out of the courtroom and on to

:41:29.:41:32.

the waves it was slow and boring and no-one had a clue what was

:41:32.:41:38.

going on. It is still about rich men indulging in their hoby, a

:41:38.:41:43.

campaign is upwards of $100 million. But it has been good to watch. Men

:41:43.:41:50.

in helmets drive catamarans with foils, flying above the water on a

:41:50.:41:54.

racecourse at above 50 miles an hour. That is very, very fast for a

:41:54.:42:02.

sailing boat. Now the boats are equallys, the race is tight and

:42:03.:42:08.

short, and the setting, San Francisco bay is spectacular. For

:42:08.:42:13.

the first time ever sailing is a spectacular sport. Formula One but

:42:13.:42:20.

wet? Maybe. Joining us now is the BB cl.'s California correspond --

:42:20.:42:28.

BBC's California correspondent, was it exciting? I'm not a man normally

:42:28.:42:33.

watching a lot of yacht racing, but the fact it is right here in the

:42:33.:42:37.

bay, the speed of the boats, the way they lift up in the hydrofoils

:42:37.:42:44.

and going incredible speeds, 45 miles an hour plus. Very close

:42:44.:42:49.

racing, all the reasons explain that, it is normally out to sea,

:42:50.:42:54.

the boats have cameras all over them, TV has been involved. You can

:42:54.:42:59.

hear the yachtsmen talking to each other about tactic, here Ben

:42:59.:43:05.

Ainslie working with the skipper of the team USA, to talk about the

:43:05.:43:10.

race and how it will go well for them. We are waiting for Team USA

:43:10.:43:15.

to arrive and Team New Zealand is here already. The presentation will

:43:15.:43:18.

be made in the next few minutes. Ben Ainslie took a job as tactition,

:43:18.:43:24.

I have forgotten his title. How much credit is he being given for

:43:24.:43:32.

the win? He has been given a lot of credit but not as much as the Brits

:43:32.:43:36.

want to give him. They did a lot of tweaks to the boat, they made a

:43:36.:43:39.

clear decision they were going to change strategy, that is when they

:43:39.:43:42.

brought Ben Ainslie in. He was a skipper on the second boat, he was

:43:42.:43:46.

here basically to race, to train, to get them up to speed. He was

:43:46.:43:51.

never expected actually race on the yacht itself. Bringing him in was

:43:51.:43:54.

like having three quarter back, yacht itself. Bringing him in was

:43:54.:43:57.

they said, on the team. Three skippers, very experienced guys all

:43:58.:43:59.

working to the. That is what a lot skippers, very experienced guys all

:43:59.:44:04.

of people are saying made a big difference. Wait that they build up

:44:04.:44:09.

their speed, get -- the way that they built up their speed, getting

:44:09.:44:13.

faster and faster. It is an amazing win, everyone was writing off the

:44:13.:44:17.

US, but you have to feel for the Kiwis, so close but so far.

:44:17.:44:21.

Thank you,en joy the celebrations. Some of tomorrow morning's front

:44:21.:44:22.

pages now. For the past two years a group of

:44:22.:45:22.

20 photographers have tried to capture the most spectacular images

:45:22.:45:26.

of British wildlife, here is some of what they managed to get, good

:45:26.:45:27.

night.

:45:27.:45:28.

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