01/10/2013 Newsnight


01/10/2013

The Daily Mail come on Newsnight to justify their attacks on Ed Miliband's father. And live Conservative Party Conference coverage. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Why are we falling out of love with political parties. Once upon a time

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the Conservatives claimed to have two million members, now it is

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something like 134 thou,000. Here in the town Manchester, site of the

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Conservative Party Conference, we have once loyal party members who

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have now left, many of them for UKIP. Can the chairman of the

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charity persuade them they have made a terrible mistake? The Daily

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Mail savages Ed Miliband's father and refuses to retract. This paper

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is saying that he hated Britain. and refuses to retract. This paper

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And that is a lie. That is a lie. And I'm not willing to let it stand.

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We will be asking the deputy editor of the Daily Mail why they won't

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apologise for trashing a dead man's name. Why have we spent all day

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baking a fancy granary loaf? Oddly enough the most fierce

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conversations haven't happened here but between Ed Miliband and the

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Daily Mail. They claim he hated the church the army and wanted a

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revolution. The visible fury of the the Labour leader today, tested to

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the limit the old axe I don't know that all is fair in love, -- axion

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that all is fair in love, war and politics. There was no doubt it was

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a hatchet job, what Ed Miliband objects to was the fact it was

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directed at his dead father. The Daily Mail is having none of it and

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printed his rebuttal alongside an editorial saying it proved why

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politicians shouldn't be allowed anywhere near regulation of the

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press. We report. He will use this soapbox during the

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general election to get down and dirty with the voters. Last week on

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this box Ed Miliband said he wanted to bring back socialism. Will you

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bring back socialism? Well that's what we're doing, Sir. He got a

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taste of the campaign to come. Politics got even dirtier. At the

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weekend the Mail published an article about the Labour leader's

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father, "the man who hated Britain", he promoted Marxist dogma, and

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hated the skween, the church and the army. These were lies, Ed

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Miliband said, this morning the Daily Mail published his reply and

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reprinted their original piece, alongside an editorial justifying

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that article. Next the Labour leader took his

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dispute to the air waves. It saved his wife and this paper is saying

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that he hated Britain. That is a lie, that is a lie, I'm not willing

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to let it stand. The Prime Minister appeared to agree. If someone

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attacked my dad, who I think about a lot and I miss him every day, I

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would definitely rush in to print and defend him as best I could. Ed

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seems to be doing exactly the same thing. So very personal, yes, but

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about principles too. This is too dirty for a general election Labour

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thinks. One right-wing blogger sees more calculation. I think Ed knows

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that the Tory press is going to be gunning for him in the up to the

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election. This is a pre-emptive opportunistic fightback so that

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when this comes he's kind of put opportunistic fightback so that

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down a marker that the Tory press is being horrible to him and his

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family. There was another consideration, Ed Miliband has

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supported Lord Justice Leveson's plans to regulate the press. Today

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supporters of self-regulation said he should back off. My view is it

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is really important that newspapers are allowed to be pugnacious, and

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take politicians down a peg or two. Do you think the Mail had a point?

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It is really important for me not to pass judgment on any particular

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newspaper. In a way that would be a politician trying to teach an

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editor how to do his job. And there is a proper division between

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editors running newspapers and politicians running their parties

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or their Government departments. Ed Miliband said he wasn't trying to

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censor the Daily Mail as correct them? Look the Daily Mail publishes

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what it publishes. It is not about regulation. But it is about me you

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know using the platform I have as a son, really, to defend my father.

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And in the end the British public have to make a decision about what

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they think and whether they think it is fair or not for the Daily

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Mail to act in this way. My understanding is that team Ed

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Miliband did value the relationship with the Daily Mail, it had

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something called the three Ms strategy, the Metro, the Mirror and

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Skup the Mail, it is Daily Mail is a formidable opponent in a general

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election, as they have lost it. It a formidable opponent in a general

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is another defining moment for the Labour leader, but it is simpler

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than that, his family has already paid a high price for his political

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ambitions, his David is abroad, his father may only be with him in

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memory, but that memory is defended. Blood is thicker than ink.

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We are in London with the deputy editor of the Daily Mail and

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Alastair Campbell. We have the deputy editor with me,

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and joining us from Nottingham Alastair Campbell in a moment.

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Thank you for coming in. Your paper wrote and you restate today that

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raffle Miliband, who fought for this country -- Ralph Miliband, who

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fought for this country in the this country -- Ralph Miliband, who

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Second World War hated Britain, how can you claim that? It is simple,

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we examined Ralph Miliband's views as they were put forward in his

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writings. His diaries, his book, his speeches. Those views conveyed

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an impression of what he thought about Britain. Which is very anti-

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path theyic to the views of a -- anti-pathetic to the views of the

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British people. We thought it was right to put the views in the paper.

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What do you mean by that, he hated Britain and had an evil legacy you

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said. He was a man who served in the Navy, who couldn't serve fast

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enough, who offered his life and raised his son here was evil? We

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didn't say he was evil. You said an evil legacy? I'm sure his service

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in the Navy was cred ditable, we have not attacked that. We stated

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his views. What did he say that he hated Britain? He was not a brieft

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individual, he was a public man, he was an academic, political activist

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and author. His views were spread widely. His views on British

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institutions from our schools to our Royal Family to our military,

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to our universities, to the church, our great universities. He never

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said he hated Christians? What he said was he felt that all of those

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things were bad aspects, were unfortunate aspects of British life.

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That meant he hated Britain? If you take those things together and you

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combine them with his espousing of a Marxist ideology that, in our

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view, represented someone who hated British values. In your view.

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Analysing British politics is not hating your country, surely? We

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felt and we think we produced evidence to support it that he

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hated British values. And that his views on many areas were anti-

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pathetic to British values. If you go beyond the views that he had put

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forward in those writings that I have mentioned, there is no

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question that his political point of view was...What Other values he

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hated then? You can have disdain of view was...What Other values he

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for a lot of things, you can question a lot of things, surely

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that is the free speech that your paper so espouses? I wouldn't

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dispute or argue with anyone's right to question things. What did

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he hate then? If you take together his views as put forward on all of

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those institutions, cumulatively they represented a substantial

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dislike of those institutions and disapproval of them. Furthermore

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his perspective politically was very much that of a Marxist, he was

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a supporter of Marxist ideology, he was a supporter of the Marxist

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ideology that was being used to run Governments in other parts of the

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continent and other parts of Europe. Which was responsible for an awful

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lot of terrible, terrible things, Which was responsible for an awful

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including millions and millions of deaths. So was the point of this

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article that your paper implies now that Ed Miliband hates Britain and

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that he is a rabid Marxist or communist? It is certainly not the

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point of our article to say that Ed Miliband hates Britain. The point

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of the article was very straight forward, Ed Miliband seeks to be

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Prime Minister of this country, he has made many speeches over the

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three years since he became Labour leader, and in many of those

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speeches he refers to the story of his parents, it is an important

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part of understanding who Ed Miliband is, the back story of his

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refugee and immigrant parents and the difficulties they had when they

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came here and the values they stood for, and how those values shaped

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him when he was a young man when he was growing up, just as they shaped

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his brother. If you are to understand Ed Miliband, who has

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told us he wants to bring back socialism to modern Britain then

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you need to understand the values that shaped him. Parents are

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important, I'm wondering if the current Viscount Rothermere who

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owns your paper is tainted by the article his great grandfather wrote

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in praise of British fascists? I don't think so. I don't think it is

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relevant to bring up a piece from don't think so. I don't think it is

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80 years ago that was written by a member of the family. Let's go to

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Alastair Campbell who has joined us from Nottingham? Can you hear us?

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Yes I can, I thought this was going to be a debate not a pathetic

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ramble from John reading out the lines written for him by Paul Daker.

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Can I say first of all you said the Mail is a formidable opponent. It

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is not because it is run by a bully and a coward, and like most cowards

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he's a hypocrite as well. Paul Daker hasn't the guts himself to

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come on a programme to defend something I know John knows is not

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defensible. When he talks about Rothemere and what his relatives

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wrote about Hitler, the sole bit they relied upon for this piece is

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something Ed Miliband's dad wrote in his diary when he was 17. What

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you have to understand about the Daily Mail it is the worst of

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British values posing as the best. When Ed Miliband went out today he

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went out and demanded a right of reply and spoke as he did today, he

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did that and I'm glad that David Cameron and Nick Clegg have

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supported him in what he did. He did it because he actually believes

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in genuine political debate and genuine freedom of speech. These

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people do not believe in genuine debate. If you do not conform to

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Paul Daker's narrow twisted view of the world, as all of his employees

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like John has to do you get done in. I say to all the politicians in

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Britain once you accept you are dealing with a bully and a coward

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Britain once you accept you are you have absolutely nothing to fear

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from them. You can start where you want, bully, coward with the worst

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kind of values? You use those words quoting Alastair, "bully, coward".

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I'm not a coward, where is Paul Daker and why have you been put up.

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Where is he, is he on his 50,000 acre Scottish estate? The reality

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Alastair is that Ed Miliband puts himself forward to be Prime

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Minister of this country. He puts himself forward on a socialist

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platform, he makes very clear that the values he grew up with were the

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values of his parents. He said in his speech today his dad wouldn't

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support his views, he said that in his speech the other day, he said

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his dad wouldn't support some of his views today. There are many of

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his views that his father would have supported and indeed as we

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know from Damian McBride's book last week, his decision to stand

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against his brother had much to do with following through in his

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father's legacy. Do you believe, do you believe, not Paul Daker who has

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told you what to say tonight. Do you believe that Ed Miliband's dad

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hated Britain, and do you think it was justified to use a picture of

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Ralph Miliband's grave in your coverage, answer the question, yes

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or no, do you believe that? As I have said to you Alastair our piece

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was based on an examination of Ralph Miliband...Do You support

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that headline, did Ralph Miliband hate Britain, answer the question?

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If you would allow me to finish. The two specific point, the

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headline said the man who haitd Britain, and you had the picture of

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a gravestone. On the headline it is a well established principle of all

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journalism, which Alastair may remember from the distant days when

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he was part of it that the headline and piece should be read in

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conjunction with each other. If you read that headline in conjunction

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with the piece which quotes extensively. You are not defending

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the headline. I am completely. You are embarrassed by Daker and you

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and your colleagues are embarred by him, Rothemere is looking for you

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to be successor and you are wriggling now. It was justified and

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appropriate for the piece. That is why we gave the right of reply. You

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are being very reason, you hope you get the job when it comes up. You

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asked about the gravestone, that did not appear on the paper. It was

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on-line, do you defend the picture. It didn't appear in the paper. Did

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you defend its use on-line? If you would let me get a word out. It is

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a straight question, answer it. The picture on-line was a picture of a

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tombstone and said "grave socialist". It appeared on the

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website it may be that the publication of that on the website

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was an error of judgment. When Ed Miliband made a complaint about

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that on Saturday evening, in fact he spoke to me personally. I know

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he did. I personally arranged for that picture to be removed. Why not

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say to my question yes. I think it was error of judgment. Now back to

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the headline, do you justify the headline, did Ralph Miliband hate

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Britain? I think it is justified. Having fought for Britain in the

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war did Ralph Miliband hate Britain? Ralph Miliband's values.

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You don't support your editor you won't answer the question. You

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don't support it. His views from anti-pathetic to many people's

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views in this country. You spoke to Ed Miliband, did Paul Daker speak

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to him? He as up on the estate hunting and shooting. I spoke to Ed

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Miliband on Saturday. What did you say to him when he expressed his

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disdain for the article? I listened to what he said, I didn't agree

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with him but said we would consider his request for a right of replie.

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And we granted that in Tuesday's paper. Did you speak about the

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headline? It wasn't that kind of conversation. No is the answer to

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that. You weren't listening in. I have a fair idea what went on. The

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conversation was Ed Miliband raising his complaints, me

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listening to them calmly and considering his request for right

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of reply, discussing with colleagues and granting that.

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Tomorrow you are publishing four pages of character assassination of

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Ed Miliband because Daker, who you know is losing the plot and

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Rothemere knows he's losing the plot can't bring himself to accept

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that he has made a terrible mistake, that your newspaper readers, who

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kind of go along with the very commercial success that you have

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got actually now will begin to see what I have known for a very long

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time that you are the worst of British values posing as the best.

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And Paul Daker is a poison in our national life, I'm glad at last we

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are debating him, I hope next time that he has the guts to come and

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are debating him, I hope next time defend himself and not put you

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there. First of all in relation to what we are publishing tomorrow,

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there is no character assassination of anybody tomorrow, there is a

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news story on what happened today. There is a selection of quotes from

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people who have been speaking in the media today and there is a

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background feature about what was happening under the Stalinist

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regime in Russia during the 40s and 50s. That is factual reporting.

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What about Hitler? I bow to nobody in my reference for your expertise

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on the -- reverence of your expertise in spreading poison, you

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have been doing that since the 1990s. This is the man from the

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Mirror and knows about character assassination, you must know what

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it is like to play politics with newspapers? No I have just been at

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the Tory Party conference, you will find a lot of Tories up there who

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will remember, I was a journalist on the Daily Mirror I respected

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politics and politicians, when I worked for the Labour Government

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and the Labour Party we had to put up with lies from people like this

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day after day after day. One of the things I argued about with Tony

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Blair is when we used to publish a daily rebuttal of smears called

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Mail Watch and Tony was got at by ministers and stopped it. I hope Ed

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Miliband goes back to it, the public needs to know the truth. The

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real spin doctors are the journalist, the real poison comes

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from people like Daker, a coward and bully, and doesn't have the

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guts to defend himself against anybody, as soon as he is gone from

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British public life the better. You are defending everything your paper

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has published so far? I am defending it completely. You have

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no idea what I believe. I know you are in line for the job, I hope you

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get it, you are more reasonable than the sociopath. The idea that

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you as Tony Blair's spin doctor respected politics is laughable.

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You may laugh but the world will laugh at Mr Paul Daker. Back to

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Jeremy in Manchester. Welcome back to Manchester.

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Tomorrow afternoon when the Prime Minister finshes his speech here at

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the Conservative conference it will end. Labour and the Lib Dems have

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already headed home with their hangovers and party nick-nack, it

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has been an oddly passionless conference season this year, maybe

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it is partly the effect of fixed term parliaments. It is also

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undeniable that these things are more and more of a minority pursuit,

:19:06.:19:11.

fewer and fewer of husband want to belong to mainstream politic -- us

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want to belong to mainstream political parties. The chairman of

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the Conservative Party will explain it all away in a few minutes, but

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first here is David Grossman explains.

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"One day like this a year will see me right" the song goes, but the

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Conservatives will need more than that to see them right. The cosy

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tea shop OK co-s happier times in the 50s when millions of Britains

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were active part members. These days perhaps another stand has the

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better visual metaphor. Shock blaifrd -- delivered, provide chest

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compressions and rescue breath. The British heart foundation is showing

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how the latest equipment and a little training can make all the

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difference. The question is are the parties now beyond resuscitation as

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mass political movements. The fact is when you come to party

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conferences like this one, the majority of people here aren't

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party activists as all. They are lobbyists, exhibitors and yes,

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journalists. Signing copies of his biography of Margaret Thatcher is

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Charles Moore, a former editor of the Daily Telegraph, he knows more

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than most the mind of the Conservative supporter, but his

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comments though apply, he says, to all the parties. It is about the

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nature of the relationship between the party member and the people who

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run it, which is now very dislocated. Now parties are run by

:20:42.:20:47.

people who are a professional gang of politicians who don't have deep

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roots in communities over the country. There is not much interest

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for the members. It is not ticks off OK it is gay marriage and

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Europe, what you need is a mass movement that comes up from the

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base and emanates outwards. You see that in lots of other walks of life

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because of the strength of the internet which allows those things

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to grow. Political parties are so top-down in their attitudes they

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don't know what to do with that. Just putting party politics

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aside...And The Conservatives say that many of the volunteers who

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help with call banks like this one aren't actually party members, just

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supporters. It would be a bit odd, a senior minister told me, if we

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demanded £25 subscription from one a senior minister told me, if we

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before we would let them campaign for us. That points to another

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problem, party finance, where they get their cash from? Each of the

:21:38.:21:43.

parties has had its own funding scandals. As the mass membership

:21:43.:21:47.

subscription has disappeared, they went rattling the tin in front of

:21:47.:21:51.

rich donors, who, let's just say, some of them wanted something back

:21:51.:21:55.

in return. The publicity and scrutiny led many donors to close

:21:55.:22:02.

their chequebooks. Now the parties are struggling not only for members

:22:02.:22:05.

but finance as well. They fear that come election time their candidates

:22:05.:22:10.

could be easy pickings for single- ish epressure groups that are well-

:22:11.:22:15.

funded and well-organised. The response from the coalition has to

:22:15.:22:20.

be introduce legislation that ifed would severely restrict how much

:22:20.:22:23.

non-party groups can spend come election time. The Countryside

:22:24.:22:31.

Alliance is campaigning on rural broadband. It is one of a huge

:22:31.:22:37.

array of pressure groups from all across the spectrum worried about

:22:37.:22:41.

the new law. Do you think organisations like yours have

:22:41.:22:45.

rather taken over from political parties? It is an interesting

:22:45.:22:48.

question and not least, for instance our membership is 100,000,

:22:48.:22:52.

I think the Conservatives are talking about a membership of

:22:52.:22:57.

130,000 now, it is a probably thing that in the next few years we

:22:57.:23:00.

willened up having more members than the Conservative Party. So I

:23:00.:23:05.

think to a certain extent organisations like ourselves and

:23:05.:23:08.

others who have even more support do have an awful lot of influence.

:23:08.:23:13.

But of course none of us want to get involved in politics in the

:23:13.:23:16.

day-to-day sense. The last thing we want to be doing is standing as

:23:16.:23:19.

political candidates. The parties are now looking to do without

:23:19.:23:25.

either mass memberships or rich donors by advocating more state

:23:25.:23:30.

funding. According to Charles Moor, a better way forward is to accept a

:23:30.:23:33.

looser kind of party affiliation. Suppose you had a sort of internet

:23:33.:23:37.

party membership that only cost you a pound a year or something like

:23:37.:23:43.

that. If you tried to build the membership you might get somewhere,

:23:43.:23:46.

pretty much the opposite has happened. Therefore political

:23:46.:23:50.

parties have become more like a sort of almost run by clever people

:23:50.:23:54.

at the top, rather than emerging from the general wishes of hundreds

:23:54.:23:58.

of thousands of people. That make them more cut off. The music hasn't

:23:58.:24:05.

stopped for political parties, but they are all struggling with the

:24:05.:24:11.

reality of fewer, older and less engaged members.

:24:11.:24:16.

You may have forgotten about the bread that we mentioned a little

:24:16.:24:22.

earlier in the programme. It is here. A jolly fine loaf it looks

:24:22.:24:27.

too. Why you might wonder? The answer, because the Prime Minister

:24:28.:24:30.

this morning admitted he doesn't know the price of a loaf of bread

:24:30.:24:35.

because he prefers to bake his own. Specifically with Cotswold malted

:24:35.:24:41.

crunch flour. This was too good a metaphor for a desperate producer

:24:41.:24:44.

to ignore, we baked a loaf and brought it here along with some

:24:45.:24:50.

more humble examples from a nearby supermarket. Our question, which of

:24:50.:24:55.

these loaves better represents the modern Conservative Party. Take

:24:55.:25:00.

this metaphor of loaves and let us know. Which ones will I choose from.

:25:00.:25:05.

The cheap or posh bread? I think the truth about party membership is

:25:05.:25:08.

that the world has changed and people don't join political parties

:25:08.:25:12.

in quite the same way. If I was in your shoes and chairman of a party

:25:12.:25:16.

and you lost 100,000 members in eight years I would be a bit

:25:16.:25:20.

depressed? Let me correct the facts. It is worth on record I would love

:25:20.:25:24.

the membership to be higher, of course I would. Secondly the

:25:24.:25:29.

comparison membership, based on the same measures everyone else looks

:25:29.:25:35.

at memberships it gives us 174,000 members. By fiddling the figures

:25:35.:25:40.

you get more? 174,000 is the audited figure I published. I'm a

:25:40.:25:44.

making the point it is comparative to other parties. The point Charles

:25:45.:25:49.

Moore he was making at the end that people should support in different

:25:49.:25:51.

ways is increase league important. Just this week we have set up if

:25:51.:26:01.

you text the word "support" to 8100 you give a pound. That is a good

:26:01.:26:03.

way people are engaging. Why are you give a pound. That is a good

:26:03.:26:08.

people going? I think the world has changed a lot nowadays. A simple

:26:08.:26:14.

example, in my last election I got a large, the largest majority that

:26:14.:26:18.

has been seen in that particular political seat for any party. We

:26:18.:26:21.

are probably the smallest membership that has been seen and

:26:21.:26:25.

we have no branches and traditional struck stuer. Things have

:26:25.:26:27.

we have no branches and traditional but it doesn't mean -- structure.

:26:27.:26:31.

Things have changed but it doesn't mean members aren't engaged. What

:26:31.:26:36.

is the average age of your members? Younger now. And the party

:26:36.:26:41.

generally. It is said to be 68? The Bow Group wouldn't have access to

:26:41.:26:45.

those numbers and I don't know the answer to myself. Shouldn't you?

:26:45.:26:49.

Let me get one answer at the time, specifically you are doing an

:26:49.:26:52.

Alastair Campbell. That is a low blow. I know, I know. But look the

:26:52.:26:55.

Alastair Campbell. That is a low truth is that people ep gauge with

:26:55.:26:58.

the party in lots of different -- engage with the party in lots of

:26:58.:27:01.

different ways. Going back ten years. Let me get the one answer

:27:01.:27:06.

out. Wouldn't have engaged with us, 200,000 people for example by

:27:06.:27:14.

Facebook. And yet every day people do that. We have hundreds of

:27:14.:27:18.

thousand of people requested and we, mail them on our e-mail list. That

:27:18.:27:23.

is contact we would never have been before. And tens of thousands of

:27:23.:27:28.

people donating via text and other methods, the world has changed. How

:27:28.:27:31.

many people have left the party here? Why did you leave? I felt the

:27:31.:27:35.

Conservative Party had become out- of-touch with me, my family and

:27:35.:27:40.

those people in the community in of their policies the people and their

:27:40.:27:44.

politics. Specifically? Education, I was a great believer, I was born

:27:44.:27:48.

and grew up in Moss Side, not far from here. I went to a Grammar

:27:48.:27:52.

School, effectively, and the Conservative Party don't support

:27:52.:27:56.

that. Let's have another view or two about why you left? I left

:27:56.:28:01.

because of tax actually, I'm a local councillor, I was elected as

:28:01.:28:05.

a Conservative and my fellow Conservatives we all stood on a

:28:05.:28:09.

platform of not raising tax. The first thing they did as soon as the

:28:09.:28:12.

cuts came down from Government was raise tax. I felt I could no longer

:28:12.:28:16.

support a party that didn't really put into action what it stood for.

:28:16.:28:21.

One more before you reply, anyone else, you want to have a go with

:28:21.:28:26.

the beard, good thing too? Thank you for standing up for beard-

:28:26.:28:30.

lovers. Mine was more of a long- term drift. I fell out of love with

:28:30.:28:34.

the party, even whilst I was a member in 2007/09 and campaigning

:28:34.:28:39.

as I was on a regular basis and seeing how the Shadow Cabinet

:28:39.:28:41.

weren't really as passionate as members were. They weren't fully

:28:41.:28:45.

engaged until the very last mip. It was a good campaign when -- minute.

:28:45.:28:49.

It was a good campaign in 2010 but it was too late, they all had other

:28:49.:28:53.

jobs. When it came to constituencies we were campaigning

:28:53.:28:56.

on they never shared our passion. All the points are relevant but

:28:56.:29:02.

really there is a disconnect. Charles Moore made a point there is

:29:02.:29:07.

a disconnect between the party elite and membership. Deal with

:29:07.:29:11.

that? You get a lot of single issue campaigns, it doesn't matter if it

:29:11.:29:15.

is the countryside or a specific issue people are passionate about.

:29:15.:29:18.

People like to follow that on their own. What happens now is we will

:29:18.:29:22.

set up a micro cam pain, we are concerned about the way that there

:29:22.:29:27.

is easy access for internet for the children, it is difficult for

:29:27.:29:34.

parents and people know how to regulate. It is something the

:29:34.:29:36.

Conservative Party is concerned about it, we were able to set up a

:29:36.:29:39.

campaign specifically on that issue. We had a lot of parents, mums dads

:29:39.:29:44.

join that campaign who would probably never join a political

:29:44.:29:48.

party so a political party has to change and campaign on the issues

:29:48.:29:50.

that actually matter to people and often they are one-off things. Is

:29:50.:29:55.

there anyone who has just recently joined the party? You tell us why

:29:55.:30:00.

you joined? I joined because it was the party that represents my values

:30:00.:30:06.

and I believe what grant was -- Grant was saying about the

:30:06.:30:10.

membership changing is true. I'm chair of Hertfordshire's County and

:30:10.:30:16.

we have a great Conservative future membership, of the 134,000 figure

:30:16.:30:21.

18thois are under 40, future Conservative members. How come you

:30:21.:30:27.

know that, or the chairman doesn't? Those figures are within the

:30:27.:30:29.

know that, or the chairman doesn't? 174,000 figure that you didn't want

:30:29.:30:34.

me to talk about. You sir in the second row? I'm not a recent joiner

:30:34.:30:41.

in fact, but I would like to let my CF colleague I will represent them.

:30:41.:30:45.

I'm going through the election process at the moment for local

:30:45.:30:49.

authority candidacy in 2015, I believe it is young people, I have

:30:49.:30:52.

said to the association chair on Saturday that it would be CF that

:30:52.:30:57.

would be coming out for me largely. What would be coming out for you?

:30:57.:31:03.

Conservative Future. I see. I have interests in LGBT Tory as well, but

:31:03.:31:09.

that is a different issue. To come back we have an organisation which

:31:09.:31:15.

I support which is LGBT Tory which is single issue LGBT equality. We

:31:15.:31:21.

were great supporters when the same-sex marriage act was passed, I

:31:21.:31:24.

think it is things like that. We will come to that in a moment or

:31:24.:31:26.

think it is things like that. We two. What does he get for his £25?

:31:26.:31:31.

I made the point, it was me disclosed cabinet minister who said

:31:31.:31:35.

that comment to David Grossman earlier. I think the days when a

:31:35.:31:39.

political party says to you, we won't accept your support until you

:31:39.:31:45.

give us £25 are long since gone. I will give you one simple answer.

:31:45.:31:49.

What do they get for £25? This is what you get, you get to vote for

:31:49.:31:52.

the leader when the leadership comes up. You get to vote for who

:31:52.:31:56.

becomes your. That is about every ten years you get a vote. Sure, I'm

:31:56.:32:00.

not arguing against that. You get to vote for the selection of your

:32:00.:32:03.

member, that could be a long time. That might be every 20 years? You

:32:03.:32:07.

get to vote for a selection of councils that happens regularly. If

:32:07.:32:09.

people want to get involved there are other ways to get involved

:32:09.:32:15.

other than give £25. I have set up Team 2015, today we celebrated our

:32:15.:32:20.

3,000th member. These are people who campaign in places that really

:32:20.:32:23.

matter. And they pay £25? They don't, if they want to pay they can.

:32:24.:32:29.

We don't ask for their money but their help. Their blood, sweat and

:32:29.:32:34.

toil, people can join up at Conservatives.com by the way. There

:32:34.:32:38.

are some members you are glad you have lost? No. Not every one? I

:32:38.:32:43.

don't know every one personal low, I don't want to lose members of the

:32:43.:32:48.

party. Every Party Chairman would want that. Not even the swivel-eyed

:32:48.:32:57.

loans. You have -- loons. No. You have never met them? No. Supposed

:32:57.:33:04.

you were to come across a swivel- eyed loon, you might well conclude

:33:04.:33:08.

that it was a God thing that David Cameron didn't listen to the party?

:33:08.:33:12.

I'm a Party Chairman and I want to see the membership grow, I'm

:33:12.:33:18.

confident by the next election that 174,000 and 134 if you let me

:33:18.:33:21.

include the 18,000 young people. That figure will grow and we have

:33:21.:33:25.

taken an important step for the party, which is to be completely

:33:25.:33:27.

open and transparent about membership and publish it, and it

:33:27.:33:31.

allows competition between the different areas of the party to

:33:31.:33:33.

increase it. For hard working people out there, who believe the

:33:33.:33:38.

future of this country is greater, we are sitting in this incredible

:33:38.:33:42.

Manchester Town Hall, a confident age when it was built, we believe

:33:42.:33:45.

there is a confident future for this country. If you are out there

:33:45.:33:50.

and watching you belong in the Conservative Party. Go to

:33:50.:33:54.

Conservatives.com and join. The depth of the Conservative identity

:33:54.:33:57.

Conservatives.com and join. The crisis be can be measured over the

:33:57.:34:03.

confusion in the party over unquestionables. If they stood for

:34:03.:34:05.

everything, they are surely the party of the family. Whilst there

:34:05.:34:10.

may be a family in Britain that may not be dysfuntional, there are

:34:10.:34:17.

certainly no two ideale ka. What constitutes a sensible family

:34:17.:34:21.

policy in 2015 is a source of friction in the party. This is what

:34:21.:34:24.

David Cameron said this week. Marriage is a great institution and

:34:25.:34:28.

helps to build a good and strong society. It is right to back

:34:28.:34:31.

marriage properly in the income tax system. Most other advanced

:34:31.:34:35.

industrial countries do it and we should do it too. I'm proud to be

:34:35.:34:39.

delivering on a promise I made in our manifesto. Critics would say

:34:39.:34:42.

you are not helping the people who need to be helped though, they

:34:42.:34:45.

might be single parents because the partner has left or died, why are

:34:45.:34:49.

you helping those people who are in a stable marriage? We are helping

:34:49.:34:54.

all families. We have cut taxes for 25 million working people. We have

:34:54.:34:57.

put in place measures so you don't pay tax on your first £10,000 of

:34:57.:35:02.

income. We are helping people with the costs of childcare. Marriage is

:35:02.:35:06.

a good institution, other countries recognise marriage properly in the

:35:06.:35:08.

a good institution, other countries tax system, that is what we are

:35:08.:35:09.

doing too. Now we have been joined by two

:35:09.:35:15.

further guests, Laura Perrin is from Mothers At Home Matter, and a

:35:15.:35:19.

critic of the policy, and Joe an from Mothers At Home Matter, and a

:35:19.:35:24.

Cash was a candidate at the election and also part of a

:35:24.:35:28.

feminist Campaign Group. Do you feel that this Government

:35:28.:35:32.

represents you? No I don't. And I have been deeply disappointed with

:35:32.:35:38.

them. I think a classic policy that those how out-of-touch this

:35:38.:35:42.

Government is, is when a cabinet, some of whom is full of

:35:42.:35:46.

millionaires come and take child benefit from middle income earners

:35:46.:35:52.

on £60,000 and replace it with a childcare allowance worth £1200 to

:35:52.:35:58.

some families earning up to £300,000, then they bring in the

:35:58.:36:03.

transferable tax allowance worth £200 to families on £40,000. They

:36:03.:36:09.

make those changes with deeply insulting language, implying that

:36:09.:36:13.

single earner families are not hard working or aspirational, and if you

:36:13.:36:17.

choose to care for your child at home that is a lifestyle choice.

:36:17.:36:23.

That is why there are many statistic at home moms and their

:36:23.:36:27.

families deeply disillusioned with the party. Do you get this? I

:36:27.:36:30.

understand that people have different perspectives on things. I

:36:30.:36:33.

think there has come a time when we need to work more collaberatively

:36:33.:36:38.

together. As a society as well as political parties. There is a lot

:36:38.:36:42.

of disenchantment out there isn't there? Certainly our members, on my

:36:42.:36:47.

Facebook group at home and they just feel that there is nobody in

:36:47.:36:51.

their corner. We respect each choice that a family make, but the

:36:51.:36:55.

Conservative Party should be about personal responsibility and liberty,

:36:55.:36:58.

and to be leaving it to the families to decide how they care

:36:58.:37:02.

for their child, either at home, or by both parties going out to work

:37:02.:37:07.

or a mixture of the two. What current coalition policy does is

:37:07.:37:10.

dictate to families how they should care for their children. They don't

:37:10.:37:15.

view single-earner families as hard working families. They have never

:37:15.:37:18.

referred to them as hard-working families. It is deeply insulting to

:37:18.:37:22.

imply that caring for children at home isn't a job worthy of respect.

:37:22.:37:31.

There are different perspectives on this. Some families don't have

:37:31.:37:34.

choices, they don't have the luxury of choices. It is those families

:37:34.:37:38.

that I would be particularly concerned to speak for. Which is

:37:38.:37:45.

why I lobby for the Fawcett Society on behalf of all women for a fairer

:37:45.:37:49.

society that benefits men, women and families. I think it is

:37:49.:37:53.

understandable when people find themselves in a situation where

:37:53.:37:56.

they feel their choices are being judged. But they have the luxury of

:37:56.:38:00.

making choices, some people don't. It is those people we need to work

:38:01.:38:05.

towards. There has been allowance given towards childcare...How Does

:38:05.:38:10.

the party of family value get itself into this pickle? Grant will

:38:10.:38:14.

have to answer that he's the Party Chairman. It is a fascinating

:38:14.:38:17.

discussion, I don't agree it is a pickle at all. Very simply and not

:38:17.:38:21.

mentioned, we have just this week said we will have transferable tax

:38:21.:38:25.

allowance for married couples, in other words recognise marriage in

:38:25.:38:28.

the tax system, that is something that would help somebody who was

:38:28.:38:31.

potentionally at home. Has anyone here exercised by the Conservative

:38:31.:38:37.

Party and family values? I actually resigned from the Conservative

:38:37.:38:42.

Party because I believe that they were actually going back on the

:38:42.:38:50.

coronation oath in doing their same-sex marriage business. The

:38:50.:38:52.

coronation oath said that all laws same-sex marriage business. The

:38:52.:38:57.

in this country made by the Queen and parliament should be in

:38:57.:39:01.

accordance with the teaching of the Christian faith. Same-sex marriage

:39:01.:39:06.

is not in accordance of the Christian faith. Who else is

:39:06.:39:10.

concerned about gay marriage? I have been a member of the

:39:10.:39:14.

Conservative Party for 50 years, and as Grant said, I have given

:39:14.:39:20.

blood, sweat and toil, but I resigned in February because of the

:39:20.:39:25.

same-sex marriage. Is anyone else concerned about it? It wasn't even

:39:25.:39:30.

part of the manifesto, this is what is galling. It was just introduced

:39:30.:39:34.

at the last minute. It was a free vote in parliament, every MP is

:39:34.:39:38.

able to make up their minds on it and vote independently, by the way

:39:38.:39:42.

there was absolutely no pressure on it. We know how your leadership

:39:42.:39:47.

felt about it? People were allowed their views on it, I don't think

:39:47.:39:53.

any of it is incompatible with having values and strong family

:39:53.:39:59.

values. The tax break being able to transfer tax allowances between

:39:59.:40:03.

husband and wife and married couple applies to any marriage. Is anyone

:40:03.:40:09.

in favour of gay marriage? I happen to be the national chairman of

:40:09.:40:14.

Conservative Future the aforementioned youth wing of the

:40:14.:40:20.

party. A huge amount of our members believe that love and commitment

:40:20.:40:23.

doesn't believe it matters whether a man and a man or woman and a

:40:23.:40:28.

woman love each other, and it should be expressed in the tax

:40:28.:40:33.

system. The church expressed a concern about being involved and it

:40:33.:40:40.

has been he can cemented. Does it - - He can cemented. Does it bother

:40:40.:40:47.

you? We were neutral. It does frustrate when you hear a

:40:47.:40:51.

Government talking about equality and unfairness and they treat

:40:51.:40:54.

others who want to care for children at home in a deeply unfair

:40:54.:40:57.

manner. You don't have a policy children at home in a deeply unfair

:40:57.:41:00.

towards single income families, what you said earlier is exactly

:41:00.:41:06.

why people are so exercised about how you treat -- exorsised about

:41:06.:41:14.

how you treat stay at home moms, as if it is a luxury. A lot of our

:41:14.:41:18.

members make serious sacrifices to care for their children at home.

:41:18.:41:22.

They are not people healthy in any way. And as I said they are making

:41:22.:41:26.

serious sacrifices to care for those children, they are not taking

:41:26.:41:29.

foreign holidays. You have other people like George Osborne coming

:41:29.:41:32.

along and telling you it is a lifestyle choice, or indeed people

:41:32.:41:36.

like yourself saying it is a luxury. It is not. I don't think that is

:41:36.:41:42.

what I was saying. I think. You did suggest it was a choice? I said

:41:42.:41:47.

there are people who don't have that choice. By implication there

:41:47.:41:53.

are many people who do? Many people can't chose to be at home with

:41:53.:41:56.

their children because they can't make ends meet and they have to

:41:56.:41:59.

work. I'm not talking about the luxury of any kind when I talk

:41:59.:42:02.

about those people. Those people I would like to see this Government,

:42:03.:42:06.

this coalition Government doing a lot more to support single mothers

:42:06.:42:11.

who have to go out to work. Families who cannot make ends meet.

:42:11.:42:14.

who have to go out to work. Let's by all means let's gesture

:42:14.:42:20.

towards commitment and show we believe in stable families and

:42:20.:42:23.

units in all shapes and sizes and do more to help people who can't

:42:23.:42:27.

make ends meet. This is not just about a group of mums who stay at

:42:27.:42:31.

home to work. Stay at home to look after their children, of whom I am

:42:31.:42:36.

one, by the way. It is also about the families who don't have the

:42:36.:42:40.

opportunity to make that choice. I'm going to have to cut you off.

:42:40.:42:47.

We are getting to the talk here this week and for the last couple

:42:47.:42:49.

of weeks at other political this week and for the last couple

:42:50.:42:53.

gatherings about what Governments ought to do rings rather hollow

:42:53.:42:56.

when you look across the Atlantic and see what has happened to much

:42:56.:42:59.

of the Government there. No-one blinked last night in the stare

:42:59.:43:04.

down between Democrat and Republican legislator, result? Much

:43:04.:43:07.

of the machinery of Government simply shut down today. Here is

:43:07.:43:12.

what President Obama had to say. The shutdown is not about deficits

:43:12.:43:17.

or budgets, this shutdown is about rolling back our efforts to provide

:43:17.:43:21.

health insurance to folks who don't have it. It is all about rolling

:43:21.:43:27.

back the Affordable Care Act. This more than anything else seems to be

:43:27.:43:31.

what the Republican Party stands for these days. I know it is

:43:31.:43:36.

strange that one party would make keeping people uninsured the centre

:43:36.:43:41.

piece of their agenda. But that apparently is what it is. And of

:43:41.:43:45.

course what is stranger still is that shutting down our Government

:43:45.:43:49.

doesn't accomplish their stated goal. We have a speechwriter for

:43:49.:43:57.

Geroge Bush but now a critic of the direction the Republican Party

:43:57.:44:00.

seems to be headed. What has gone wrong with the system when a

:44:00.:44:04.

Government can't operate? What has gone wrong here is a strategic

:44:04.:44:10.

mistake. Republicans are opposed to the Obamacare proposal, I am, the

:44:10.:44:17.

sway you repeal it is by having an alternative and winning elections

:44:17.:44:21.

and having a platform. Because Republicans aren't successful the

:44:21.:44:25.

party is frustrated and you have this intense passionate gesture but

:44:25.:44:28.

it is one that will be almost impossible for Republicans to win.

:44:28.:44:34.

Very likely, it is like that scene in Animal House when it is said

:44:34.:44:37.

"there comes a time in everyone's in Animal House when it is said

:44:37.:44:44.

life when for a futile gesture" that is where we are now. I want to

:44:45.:44:48.

explore the way the right is breaking up here and in the states

:44:48.:44:52.

in a moment or two. How can you think this will be resolved? Your

:44:52.:44:55.

right is doing great, I don't know what you are talking about. Say

:44:55.:44:59.

that to some of these guys who have left the party? In Britain the

:44:59.:45:02.

that to some of these guys who have Conservatives are preparing to, are

:45:02.:45:05.

not shutting down the Government, they are preparing to have a second

:45:05.:45:09.

term in Government. That is the way it should be, they are developing

:45:09.:45:14.

policies and winning peculiarities, and maybe a bigger one next --

:45:14.:45:25.

plurality and maybe more in the next time the Republican Party

:45:25.:45:28.

aren't winning these gestures and they have these policies that don't

:45:28.:45:32.

work politically. How will it be resolved? With Republicans blinking

:45:32.:45:36.

some time over the next week. We have a much more important deadline

:45:36.:45:40.

coming up in the middle of October, around 17th of October, the debt

:45:40.:45:44.

ceiling, what is not well understood outside the United

:45:44.:45:47.

States is there are two different event. The shutdown of the

:45:47.:45:50.

Government as annoying and irritating and silly as it is, it

:45:50.:45:54.

has happened 17-times over the past 20 years it is the Government

:45:54.:45:59.

running past its budget debt line, it is the debt ceiling which is the

:45:59.:46:03.

end of the world scenario that comes in a couple of weeks. Will

:46:03.:46:09.

there be an end to the world? Everyone understands, they are

:46:09.:46:12.

playing with live ammunition at the moment, then they are playing with

:46:12.:46:15.

live nuclear bombs, people don't do that. The legislators getting paid?

:46:15.:46:20.

That is under the constitution, yes, and juplgs are paid. About 800,000

:46:20.:46:25.

people are if you are lowed, and many are in -- furlowed, and many

:46:25.:46:32.

of those are in Virginia, there is a governor's race there, neck and

:46:32.:46:35.

neck between Democrats and Republican, part of the price will

:46:35.:46:38.

neck between Democrats and be the loss of governorship in the

:46:38.:46:44.

important purple state will be lost to the Republican candidate. You

:46:44.:46:49.

are over here to see the Conservatives? I'm a big fan. This

:46:49.:46:55.

part has not only lost a lot of members, it has also got a

:46:55.:46:59.

political challenge in the shape of UKIP. What do you make of the

:46:59.:47:04.

nature of the right? When the parties lost memberships, you are

:47:04.:47:07.

dealing with disaffiliation from all institutions, the boy Scouts

:47:07.:47:10.

have lost members, the Roman Catholic Church has lost members,

:47:10.:47:15.

clubs and societies of every kind. We are not a joining generation in

:47:15.:47:17.

clubs and societies of every kind. the way that the post-war gin

:47:17.:47:21.

rations were. That is just a general -- generations were. That

:47:21.:47:28.

is just a general phenomenon of post-industrial societies. My

:47:28.:47:30.

advice on UKIP is the conditions are concerned about the loss of

:47:30.:47:34.

votes to the right, don't trade one vote to the right for three votes

:47:34.:47:40.

to the sent. Would you explain that I would say the Conservatives need

:47:40.:47:44.

to deal with the issues. Ukip is dealing with important issues on

:47:44.:47:48.

Europe and the economic crisis, it is important to address those

:47:48.:47:53.

issues, don't be distracted by intensifying your base which is

:47:53.:47:56.

widening the coalition. The tea party is an example what not to do.

:47:56.:48:01.

The experience in Canada is an experience of what to do. The

:48:01.:48:05.

Conservatives widened their base in canned gau practised a politics of

:48:05.:48:08.

inclusion that made the Conservatives in Canada a truly

:48:08.:48:12.

multiethnic party. That is the future, not chasing culturally

:48:12.:48:18.

conservative elements. We leave you with the work of medical engineers

:48:18.:48:22.

from the rehabilitation Institute of Chicago, who say they have

:48:23.:48:27.

created the world's first prosthetic leg whose movement can

:48:27.:48:30.

be controlled directly from the brain like a normal limb.

:48:30.:48:49.

# Daily walking # Close to thee

:48:49.:48:54.

# Just a closer walk with you # Let it be

:48:54.:48:56.

# Dear Lord # Let it be

:48:56.:48:57.

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