Browse content similar to 01/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Why are we falling out of love with political parties. Once upon a time | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
the Conservatives claimed to have two million members, now it is | :00:17. | :00:24. | |
something like 134 thou,000. Here in the town Manchester, site of the | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
Conservative Party Conference, we have once loyal party members who | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
have now left, many of them for UKIP. Can the chairman of the | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
charity persuade them they have made a terrible mistake? The Daily | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
Mail savages Ed Miliband's father and refuses to retract. This paper | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
is saying that he hated Britain. and refuses to retract. This paper | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
And that is a lie. That is a lie. And I'm not willing to let it stand. | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
We will be asking the deputy editor of the Daily Mail why they won't | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
apologise for trashing a dead man's name. Why have we spent all day | :01:00. | :01:21. | |
baking a fancy granary loaf? Oddly enough the most fierce | :01:21. | :01:30. | |
conversations haven't happened here but between Ed Miliband and the | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
Daily Mail. They claim he hated the church the army and wanted a | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
revolution. The visible fury of the the Labour leader today, tested to | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
the limit the old axe I don't know that all is fair in love, -- axion | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
that all is fair in love, war and politics. There was no doubt it was | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
a hatchet job, what Ed Miliband objects to was the fact it was | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
directed at his dead father. The Daily Mail is having none of it and | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
printed his rebuttal alongside an editorial saying it proved why | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
politicians shouldn't be allowed anywhere near regulation of the | :02:05. | :02:13. | |
press. We report. He will use this soapbox during the | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
general election to get down and dirty with the voters. Last week on | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
this box Ed Miliband said he wanted to bring back socialism. Will you | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
bring back socialism? Well that's what we're doing, Sir. He got a | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
taste of the campaign to come. Politics got even dirtier. At the | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
weekend the Mail published an article about the Labour leader's | :02:36. | :02:43. | |
father, "the man who hated Britain", he promoted Marxist dogma, and | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
hated the skween, the church and the army. These were lies, Ed | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
Miliband said, this morning the Daily Mail published his reply and | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
reprinted their original piece, alongside an editorial justifying | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
that article. Next the Labour leader took his | :02:57. | :03:17. | |
dispute to the air waves. It saved his wife and this paper is saying | :03:17. | :03:25. | |
that he hated Britain. That is a lie, that is a lie, I'm not willing | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
to let it stand. The Prime Minister appeared to agree. If someone | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
attacked my dad, who I think about a lot and I miss him every day, I | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
would definitely rush in to print and defend him as best I could. Ed | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
seems to be doing exactly the same thing. So very personal, yes, but | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
about principles too. This is too dirty for a general election Labour | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
thinks. One right-wing blogger sees more calculation. I think Ed knows | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
that the Tory press is going to be gunning for him in the up to the | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
election. This is a pre-emptive opportunistic fightback so that | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
when this comes he's kind of put opportunistic fightback so that | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
down a marker that the Tory press is being horrible to him and his | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
family. There was another consideration, Ed Miliband has | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
supported Lord Justice Leveson's plans to regulate the press. Today | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
supporters of self-regulation said he should back off. My view is it | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
is really important that newspapers are allowed to be pugnacious, and | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
take politicians down a peg or two. Do you think the Mail had a point? | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
It is really important for me not to pass judgment on any particular | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
newspaper. In a way that would be a politician trying to teach an | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
editor how to do his job. And there is a proper division between | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
editors running newspapers and politicians running their parties | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
or their Government departments. Ed Miliband said he wasn't trying to | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
censor the Daily Mail as correct them? Look the Daily Mail publishes | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
what it publishes. It is not about regulation. But it is about me you | :04:54. | :05:02. | |
know using the platform I have as a son, really, to defend my father. | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
And in the end the British public have to make a decision about what | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
they think and whether they think it is fair or not for the Daily | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
Mail to act in this way. My understanding is that team Ed | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
Miliband did value the relationship with the Daily Mail, it had | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
something called the three Ms strategy, the Metro, the Mirror and | :05:22. | :05:33. | |
Skup the Mail, it is Daily Mail is a formidable opponent in a general | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
election, as they have lost it. It a formidable opponent in a general | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
is another defining moment for the Labour leader, but it is simpler | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
than that, his family has already paid a high price for his political | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
ambitions, his David is abroad, his father may only be with him in | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
memory, but that memory is defended. Blood is thicker than ink. | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
We are in London with the deputy editor of the Daily Mail and | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
Alastair Campbell. We have the deputy editor with me, | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
and joining us from Nottingham Alastair Campbell in a moment. | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
Thank you for coming in. Your paper wrote and you restate today that | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
raffle Miliband, who fought for this country -- Ralph Miliband, who | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
fought for this country in the this country -- Ralph Miliband, who | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
Second World War hated Britain, how can you claim that? It is simple, | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
we examined Ralph Miliband's views as they were put forward in his | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
writings. His diaries, his book, his speeches. Those views conveyed | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
an impression of what he thought about Britain. Which is very anti- | :06:34. | :06:42. | |
path theyic to the views of a -- anti-pathetic to the views of the | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
British people. We thought it was right to put the views in the paper. | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
What do you mean by that, he hated Britain and had an evil legacy you | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
said. He was a man who served in the Navy, who couldn't serve fast | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
enough, who offered his life and raised his son here was evil? We | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
didn't say he was evil. You said an evil legacy? I'm sure his service | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
in the Navy was cred ditable, we have not attacked that. We stated | :07:09. | :07:18. | |
his views. What did he say that he hated Britain? He was not a brieft | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
individual, he was a public man, he was an academic, political activist | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
and author. His views were spread widely. His views on British | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
institutions from our schools to our Royal Family to our military, | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
to our universities, to the church, our great universities. He never | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
said he hated Christians? What he said was he felt that all of those | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
things were bad aspects, were unfortunate aspects of British life. | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
That meant he hated Britain? If you take those things together and you | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
combine them with his espousing of a Marxist ideology that, in our | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
view, represented someone who hated British values. In your view. | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
Analysing British politics is not hating your country, surely? We | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
felt and we think we produced evidence to support it that he | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
hated British values. And that his views on many areas were anti- | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
pathetic to British values. If you go beyond the views that he had put | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
forward in those writings that I have mentioned, there is no | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
question that his political point of view was...What Other values he | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
hated then? You can have disdain of view was...What Other values he | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
for a lot of things, you can question a lot of things, surely | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
that is the free speech that your paper so espouses? I wouldn't | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
dispute or argue with anyone's right to question things. What did | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
he hate then? If you take together his views as put forward on all of | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
those institutions, cumulatively they represented a substantial | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
dislike of those institutions and disapproval of them. Furthermore | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
his perspective politically was very much that of a Marxist, he was | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
a supporter of Marxist ideology, he was a supporter of the Marxist | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
ideology that was being used to run Governments in other parts of the | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
continent and other parts of Europe. Which was responsible for an awful | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
lot of terrible, terrible things, Which was responsible for an awful | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
including millions and millions of deaths. So was the point of this | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
article that your paper implies now that Ed Miliband hates Britain and | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
that he is a rabid Marxist or communist? It is certainly not the | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
point of our article to say that Ed Miliband hates Britain. The point | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
of the article was very straight forward, Ed Miliband seeks to be | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
Prime Minister of this country, he has made many speeches over the | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
three years since he became Labour leader, and in many of those | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
speeches he refers to the story of his parents, it is an important | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
part of understanding who Ed Miliband is, the back story of his | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
refugee and immigrant parents and the difficulties they had when they | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
came here and the values they stood for, and how those values shaped | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
him when he was a young man when he was growing up, just as they shaped | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
his brother. If you are to understand Ed Miliband, who has | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
told us he wants to bring back socialism to modern Britain then | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
you need to understand the values that shaped him. Parents are | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
important, I'm wondering if the current Viscount Rothermere who | :10:19. | :10:29. | |
owns your paper is tainted by the article his great grandfather wrote | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
in praise of British fascists? I don't think so. I don't think it is | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
relevant to bring up a piece from don't think so. I don't think it is | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
80 years ago that was written by a member of the family. Let's go to | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
Alastair Campbell who has joined us from Nottingham? Can you hear us? | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
Yes I can, I thought this was going to be a debate not a pathetic | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
ramble from John reading out the lines written for him by Paul Daker. | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
Can I say first of all you said the Mail is a formidable opponent. It | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
is not because it is run by a bully and a coward, and like most cowards | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
he's a hypocrite as well. Paul Daker hasn't the guts himself to | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
come on a programme to defend something I know John knows is not | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
defensible. When he talks about Rothemere and what his relatives | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
wrote about Hitler, the sole bit they relied upon for this piece is | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
something Ed Miliband's dad wrote in his diary when he was 17. What | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
you have to understand about the Daily Mail it is the worst of | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
British values posing as the best. When Ed Miliband went out today he | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
went out and demanded a right of reply and spoke as he did today, he | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
did that and I'm glad that David Cameron and Nick Clegg have | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
supported him in what he did. He did it because he actually believes | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
in genuine political debate and genuine freedom of speech. These | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
people do not believe in genuine debate. If you do not conform to | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
Paul Daker's narrow twisted view of the world, as all of his employees | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
like John has to do you get done in. I say to all the politicians in | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
Britain once you accept you are dealing with a bully and a coward | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
Britain once you accept you are you have absolutely nothing to fear | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
from them. You can start where you want, bully, coward with the worst | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
kind of values? You use those words quoting Alastair, "bully, coward". | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
I'm not a coward, where is Paul Daker and why have you been put up. | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
Where is he, is he on his 50,000 acre Scottish estate? The reality | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
Alastair is that Ed Miliband puts himself forward to be Prime | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
Minister of this country. He puts himself forward on a socialist | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
platform, he makes very clear that the values he grew up with were the | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
values of his parents. He said in his speech today his dad wouldn't | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
support his views, he said that in his speech the other day, he said | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
his dad wouldn't support some of his views today. There are many of | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
his views that his father would have supported and indeed as we | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
know from Damian McBride's book last week, his decision to stand | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
against his brother had much to do with following through in his | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
father's legacy. Do you believe, do you believe, not Paul Daker who has | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
told you what to say tonight. Do you believe that Ed Miliband's dad | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
hated Britain, and do you think it was justified to use a picture of | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
Ralph Miliband's grave in your coverage, answer the question, yes | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
or no, do you believe that? As I have said to you Alastair our piece | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
was based on an examination of Ralph Miliband...Do You support | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
that headline, did Ralph Miliband hate Britain, answer the question? | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
If you would allow me to finish. The two specific point, the | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
headline said the man who haitd Britain, and you had the picture of | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
a gravestone. On the headline it is a well established principle of all | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
journalism, which Alastair may remember from the distant days when | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
he was part of it that the headline and piece should be read in | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
conjunction with each other. If you read that headline in conjunction | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
with the piece which quotes extensively. You are not defending | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
the headline. I am completely. You are embarrassed by Daker and you | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
and your colleagues are embarred by him, Rothemere is looking for you | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
to be successor and you are wriggling now. It was justified and | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
appropriate for the piece. That is why we gave the right of reply. You | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
are being very reason, you hope you get the job when it comes up. You | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
asked about the gravestone, that did not appear on the paper. It was | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
on-line, do you defend the picture. It didn't appear in the paper. Did | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
you defend its use on-line? If you would let me get a word out. It is | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
a straight question, answer it. The picture on-line was a picture of a | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
tombstone and said "grave socialist". It appeared on the | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
website it may be that the publication of that on the website | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
was an error of judgment. When Ed Miliband made a complaint about | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
that on Saturday evening, in fact he spoke to me personally. I know | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
he did. I personally arranged for that picture to be removed. Why not | :14:57. | :15:04. | |
say to my question yes. I think it was error of judgment. Now back to | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
the headline, do you justify the headline, did Ralph Miliband hate | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
Britain? I think it is justified. Having fought for Britain in the | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
war did Ralph Miliband hate Britain? Ralph Miliband's values. | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
You don't support your editor you won't answer the question. You | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
don't support it. His views from anti-pathetic to many people's | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
views in this country. You spoke to Ed Miliband, did Paul Daker speak | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
to him? He as up on the estate hunting and shooting. I spoke to Ed | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
Miliband on Saturday. What did you say to him when he expressed his | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
disdain for the article? I listened to what he said, I didn't agree | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
with him but said we would consider his request for a right of replie. | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
And we granted that in Tuesday's paper. Did you speak about the | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
headline? It wasn't that kind of conversation. No is the answer to | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
that. You weren't listening in. I have a fair idea what went on. The | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
conversation was Ed Miliband raising his complaints, me | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
listening to them calmly and considering his request for right | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
of reply, discussing with colleagues and granting that. | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
Tomorrow you are publishing four pages of character assassination of | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
Ed Miliband because Daker, who you know is losing the plot and | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
Rothemere knows he's losing the plot can't bring himself to accept | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
that he has made a terrible mistake, that your newspaper readers, who | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
kind of go along with the very commercial success that you have | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
got actually now will begin to see what I have known for a very long | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
time that you are the worst of British values posing as the best. | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
And Paul Daker is a poison in our national life, I'm glad at last we | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
are debating him, I hope next time that he has the guts to come and | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
are debating him, I hope next time defend himself and not put you | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
there. First of all in relation to what we are publishing tomorrow, | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
there is no character assassination of anybody tomorrow, there is a | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
news story on what happened today. There is a selection of quotes from | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
people who have been speaking in the media today and there is a | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
background feature about what was happening under the Stalinist | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
regime in Russia during the 40s and 50s. That is factual reporting. | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
What about Hitler? I bow to nobody in my reference for your expertise | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
on the -- reverence of your expertise in spreading poison, you | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
have been doing that since the 1990s. This is the man from the | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
Mirror and knows about character assassination, you must know what | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
it is like to play politics with newspapers? No I have just been at | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
the Tory Party conference, you will find a lot of Tories up there who | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
will remember, I was a journalist on the Daily Mirror I respected | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
politics and politicians, when I worked for the Labour Government | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
and the Labour Party we had to put up with lies from people like this | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
day after day after day. One of the things I argued about with Tony | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
Blair is when we used to publish a daily rebuttal of smears called | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
Mail Watch and Tony was got at by ministers and stopped it. I hope Ed | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
Miliband goes back to it, the public needs to know the truth. The | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
real spin doctors are the journalist, the real poison comes | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
from people like Daker, a coward and bully, and doesn't have the | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
guts to defend himself against anybody, as soon as he is gone from | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
British public life the better. You are defending everything your paper | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
has published so far? I am defending it completely. You have | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
no idea what I believe. I know you are in line for the job, I hope you | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
get it, you are more reasonable than the sociopath. The idea that | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
you as Tony Blair's spin doctor respected politics is laughable. | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
You may laugh but the world will laugh at Mr Paul Daker. Back to | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
Jeremy in Manchester. Welcome back to Manchester. | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
Tomorrow afternoon when the Prime Minister finshes his speech here at | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
the Conservative conference it will end. Labour and the Lib Dems have | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
already headed home with their hangovers and party nick-nack, it | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
has been an oddly passionless conference season this year, maybe | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
it is partly the effect of fixed term parliaments. It is also | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
undeniable that these things are more and more of a minority pursuit, | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
fewer and fewer of husband want to belong to mainstream politic -- us | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
want to belong to mainstream political parties. The chairman of | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
the Conservative Party will explain it all away in a few minutes, but | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
first here is David Grossman explains. | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
"One day like this a year will see me right" the song goes, but the | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
Conservatives will need more than that to see them right. The cosy | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
tea shop OK co-s happier times in the 50s when millions of Britains | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
were active part members. These days perhaps another stand has the | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
better visual metaphor. Shock blaifrd -- delivered, provide chest | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
compressions and rescue breath. The British heart foundation is showing | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
how the latest equipment and a little training can make all the | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
difference. The question is are the parties now beyond resuscitation as | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
mass political movements. The fact is when you come to party | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
conferences like this one, the majority of people here aren't | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
party activists as all. They are lobbyists, exhibitors and yes, | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
journalists. Signing copies of his biography of Margaret Thatcher is | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
Charles Moore, a former editor of the Daily Telegraph, he knows more | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
than most the mind of the Conservative supporter, but his | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
comments though apply, he says, to all the parties. It is about the | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
nature of the relationship between the party member and the people who | :20:35. | :20:42. | |
run it, which is now very dislocated. Now parties are run by | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
people who are a professional gang of politicians who don't have deep | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
roots in communities over the country. There is not much interest | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
for the members. It is not ticks off OK it is gay marriage and | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
Europe, what you need is a mass movement that comes up from the | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
base and emanates outwards. You see that in lots of other walks of life | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
because of the strength of the internet which allows those things | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
to grow. Political parties are so top-down in their attitudes they | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
don't know what to do with that. Just putting party politics | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
aside...And The Conservatives say that many of the volunteers who | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
help with call banks like this one aren't actually party members, just | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
supporters. It would be a bit odd, a senior minister told me, if we | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
demanded £25 subscription from one a senior minister told me, if we | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
before we would let them campaign for us. That points to another | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
problem, party finance, where they get their cash from? Each of the | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
parties has had its own funding scandals. As the mass membership | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
subscription has disappeared, they went rattling the tin in front of | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
rich donors, who, let's just say, some of them wanted something back | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
in return. The publicity and scrutiny led many donors to close | :21:55. | :22:02. | |
their chequebooks. Now the parties are struggling not only for members | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
but finance as well. They fear that come election time their candidates | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
could be easy pickings for single- ish epressure groups that are well- | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
funded and well-organised. The response from the coalition has to | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
be introduce legislation that ifed would severely restrict how much | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
non-party groups can spend come election time. The Countryside | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
Alliance is campaigning on rural broadband. It is one of a huge | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
array of pressure groups from all across the spectrum worried about | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
the new law. Do you think organisations like yours have | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
rather taken over from political parties? It is an interesting | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
question and not least, for instance our membership is 100,000, | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
I think the Conservatives are talking about a membership of | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
130,000 now, it is a probably thing that in the next few years we | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
willened up having more members than the Conservative Party. So I | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
think to a certain extent organisations like ourselves and | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
others who have even more support do have an awful lot of influence. | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
But of course none of us want to get involved in politics in the | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
day-to-day sense. The last thing we want to be doing is standing as | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
political candidates. The parties are now looking to do without | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
either mass memberships or rich donors by advocating more state | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
funding. According to Charles Moor, a better way forward is to accept a | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
looser kind of party affiliation. Suppose you had a sort of internet | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
party membership that only cost you a pound a year or something like | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
that. If you tried to build the membership you might get somewhere, | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
pretty much the opposite has happened. Therefore political | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
parties have become more like a sort of almost run by clever people | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
at the top, rather than emerging from the general wishes of hundreds | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
of thousands of people. That make them more cut off. The music hasn't | :23:58. | :24:05. | |
stopped for political parties, but they are all struggling with the | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
reality of fewer, older and less engaged members. | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
You may have forgotten about the bread that we mentioned a little | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
earlier in the programme. It is here. A jolly fine loaf it looks | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
too. Why you might wonder? The answer, because the Prime Minister | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
this morning admitted he doesn't know the price of a loaf of bread | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
because he prefers to bake his own. Specifically with Cotswold malted | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
crunch flour. This was too good a metaphor for a desperate producer | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
to ignore, we baked a loaf and brought it here along with some | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
more humble examples from a nearby supermarket. Our question, which of | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
these loaves better represents the modern Conservative Party. Take | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
this metaphor of loaves and let us know. Which ones will I choose from. | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
The cheap or posh bread? I think the truth about party membership is | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
that the world has changed and people don't join political parties | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
in quite the same way. If I was in your shoes and chairman of a party | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
and you lost 100,000 members in eight years I would be a bit | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
depressed? Let me correct the facts. It is worth on record I would love | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
the membership to be higher, of course I would. Secondly the | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
comparison membership, based on the same measures everyone else looks | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
at memberships it gives us 174,000 members. By fiddling the figures | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
you get more? 174,000 is the audited figure I published. I'm a | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
making the point it is comparative to other parties. The point Charles | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
Moore he was making at the end that people should support in different | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
ways is increase league important. Just this week we have set up if | :25:51. | :26:01. | |
you text the word "support" to 8100 you give a pound. That is a good | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
way people are engaging. Why are you give a pound. That is a good | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
people going? I think the world has changed a lot nowadays. A simple | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
example, in my last election I got a large, the largest majority that | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
has been seen in that particular political seat for any party. We | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
are probably the smallest membership that has been seen and | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
we have no branches and traditional struck stuer. Things have | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
we have no branches and traditional but it doesn't mean -- structure. | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
Things have changed but it doesn't mean members aren't engaged. What | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
is the average age of your members? Younger now. And the party | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
generally. It is said to be 68? The Bow Group wouldn't have access to | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
those numbers and I don't know the answer to myself. Shouldn't you? | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
Let me get one answer at the time, specifically you are doing an | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
Alastair Campbell. That is a low blow. I know, I know. But look the | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
Alastair Campbell. That is a low truth is that people ep gauge with | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
the party in lots of different -- engage with the party in lots of | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
different ways. Going back ten years. Let me get the one answer | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
out. Wouldn't have engaged with us, 200,000 people for example by | :27:06. | :27:14. | |
Facebook. And yet every day people do that. We have hundreds of | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
thousand of people requested and we, mail them on our e-mail list. That | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
is contact we would never have been before. And tens of thousands of | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
people donating via text and other methods, the world has changed. How | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
many people have left the party here? Why did you leave? I felt the | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
Conservative Party had become out- of-touch with me, my family and | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
those people in the community in of their policies the people and their | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
politics. Specifically? Education, I was a great believer, I was born | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
and grew up in Moss Side, not far from here. I went to a Grammar | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
School, effectively, and the Conservative Party don't support | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
that. Let's have another view or two about why you left? I left | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
because of tax actually, I'm a local councillor, I was elected as | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
a Conservative and my fellow Conservatives we all stood on a | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
platform of not raising tax. The first thing they did as soon as the | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
cuts came down from Government was raise tax. I felt I could no longer | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
support a party that didn't really put into action what it stood for. | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
One more before you reply, anyone else, you want to have a go with | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
the beard, good thing too? Thank you for standing up for beard- | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
lovers. Mine was more of a long- term drift. I fell out of love with | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
the party, even whilst I was a member in 2007/09 and campaigning | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
as I was on a regular basis and seeing how the Shadow Cabinet | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
weren't really as passionate as members were. They weren't fully | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
engaged until the very last mip. It was a good campaign when -- minute. | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
It was a good campaign in 2010 but it was too late, they all had other | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
jobs. When it came to constituencies we were campaigning | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
on they never shared our passion. All the points are relevant but | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
really there is a disconnect. Charles Moore made a point there is | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
a disconnect between the party elite and membership. Deal with | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
that? You get a lot of single issue campaigns, it doesn't matter if it | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
is the countryside or a specific issue people are passionate about. | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
People like to follow that on their own. What happens now is we will | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
set up a micro cam pain, we are concerned about the way that there | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
is easy access for internet for the children, it is difficult for | :29:27. | :29:34. | |
parents and people know how to regulate. It is something the | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
Conservative Party is concerned about it, we were able to set up a | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
campaign specifically on that issue. We had a lot of parents, mums dads | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
join that campaign who would probably never join a political | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
party so a political party has to change and campaign on the issues | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
that actually matter to people and often they are one-off things. Is | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
there anyone who has just recently joined the party? You tell us why | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
you joined? I joined because it was the party that represents my values | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
and I believe what grant was -- Grant was saying about the | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
membership changing is true. I'm chair of Hertfordshire's County and | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
we have a great Conservative future membership, of the 134,000 figure | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
18thois are under 40, future Conservative members. How come you | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
know that, or the chairman doesn't? Those figures are within the | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
know that, or the chairman doesn't? 174,000 figure that you didn't want | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
me to talk about. You sir in the second row? I'm not a recent joiner | :30:34. | :30:41. | |
in fact, but I would like to let my CF colleague I will represent them. | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
I'm going through the election process at the moment for local | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
authority candidacy in 2015, I believe it is young people, I have | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
said to the association chair on Saturday that it would be CF that | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
would be coming out for me largely. What would be coming out for you? | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
Conservative Future. I see. I have interests in LGBT Tory as well, but | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
that is a different issue. To come back we have an organisation which | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
I support which is LGBT Tory which is single issue LGBT equality. We | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
were great supporters when the same-sex marriage act was passed, I | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
think it is things like that. We will come to that in a moment or | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
think it is things like that. We two. What does he get for his £25? | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
I made the point, it was me disclosed cabinet minister who said | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
that comment to David Grossman earlier. I think the days when a | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
political party says to you, we won't accept your support until you | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
give us £25 are long since gone. I will give you one simple answer. | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
What do they get for £25? This is what you get, you get to vote for | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
the leader when the leadership comes up. You get to vote for who | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
becomes your. That is about every ten years you get a vote. Sure, I'm | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
not arguing against that. You get to vote for the selection of your | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
member, that could be a long time. That might be every 20 years? You | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
get to vote for a selection of councils that happens regularly. If | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
people want to get involved there are other ways to get involved | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
other than give £25. I have set up Team 2015, today we celebrated our | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
3,000th member. These are people who campaign in places that really | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
matter. And they pay £25? They don't, if they want to pay they can. | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
We don't ask for their money but their help. Their blood, sweat and | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
toil, people can join up at Conservatives.com by the way. There | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
are some members you are glad you have lost? No. Not every one? I | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
don't know every one personal low, I don't want to lose members of the | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
party. Every Party Chairman would want that. Not even the swivel-eyed | :32:48. | :32:57. | |
loans. You have -- loons. No. You have never met them? No. Supposed | :32:57. | :33:04. | |
you were to come across a swivel- eyed loon, you might well conclude | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
that it was a God thing that David Cameron didn't listen to the party? | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
I'm a Party Chairman and I want to see the membership grow, I'm | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
confident by the next election that 174,000 and 134 if you let me | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
include the 18,000 young people. That figure will grow and we have | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
taken an important step for the party, which is to be completely | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
open and transparent about membership and publish it, and it | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
allows competition between the different areas of the party to | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
increase it. For hard working people out there, who believe the | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
future of this country is greater, we are sitting in this incredible | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
Manchester Town Hall, a confident age when it was built, we believe | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
there is a confident future for this country. If you are out there | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
and watching you belong in the Conservative Party. Go to | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
Conservatives.com and join. The depth of the Conservative identity | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
Conservatives.com and join. The crisis be can be measured over the | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
confusion in the party over unquestionables. If they stood for | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
everything, they are surely the party of the family. Whilst there | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
may be a family in Britain that may not be dysfuntional, there are | :34:10. | :34:17. | |
certainly no two ideale ka. What constitutes a sensible family | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
policy in 2015 is a source of friction in the party. This is what | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
David Cameron said this week. Marriage is a great institution and | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
helps to build a good and strong society. It is right to back | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
marriage properly in the income tax system. Most other advanced | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
industrial countries do it and we should do it too. I'm proud to be | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
delivering on a promise I made in our manifesto. Critics would say | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
you are not helping the people who need to be helped though, they | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
might be single parents because the partner has left or died, why are | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
you helping those people who are in a stable marriage? We are helping | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
all families. We have cut taxes for 25 million working people. We have | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
put in place measures so you don't pay tax on your first £10,000 of | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
income. We are helping people with the costs of childcare. Marriage is | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
a good institution, other countries recognise marriage properly in the | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
a good institution, other countries tax system, that is what we are | :35:08. | :35:09. | |
doing too. Now we have been joined by two | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
further guests, Laura Perrin is from Mothers At Home Matter, and a | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
critic of the policy, and Joe an from Mothers At Home Matter, and a | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
Cash was a candidate at the election and also part of a | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
feminist Campaign Group. Do you feel that this Government | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
represents you? No I don't. And I have been deeply disappointed with | :35:32. | :35:38. | |
them. I think a classic policy that those how out-of-touch this | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
Government is, is when a cabinet, some of whom is full of | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
millionaires come and take child benefit from middle income earners | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
on £60,000 and replace it with a childcare allowance worth £1200 to | :35:52. | :35:58. | |
some families earning up to £300,000, then they bring in the | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
transferable tax allowance worth £200 to families on £40,000. They | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
make those changes with deeply insulting language, implying that | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
single earner families are not hard working or aspirational, and if you | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
choose to care for your child at home that is a lifestyle choice. | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
That is why there are many statistic at home moms and their | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
families deeply disillusioned with the party. Do you get this? I | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
understand that people have different perspectives on things. I | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
think there has come a time when we need to work more collaberatively | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
together. As a society as well as political parties. There is a lot | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
of disenchantment out there isn't there? Certainly our members, on my | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
Facebook group at home and they just feel that there is nobody in | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
their corner. We respect each choice that a family make, but the | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
Conservative Party should be about personal responsibility and liberty, | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
and to be leaving it to the families to decide how they care | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
for their child, either at home, or by both parties going out to work | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
or a mixture of the two. What current coalition policy does is | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
dictate to families how they should care for their children. They don't | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
view single-earner families as hard working families. They have never | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
referred to them as hard-working families. It is deeply insulting to | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
imply that caring for children at home isn't a job worthy of respect. | :37:22. | :37:31. | |
There are different perspectives on this. Some families don't have | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
choices, they don't have the luxury of choices. It is those families | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
that I would be particularly concerned to speak for. Which is | :37:38. | :37:45. | |
why I lobby for the Fawcett Society on behalf of all women for a fairer | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
society that benefits men, women and families. I think it is | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
understandable when people find themselves in a situation where | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
they feel their choices are being judged. But they have the luxury of | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
making choices, some people don't. It is those people we need to work | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
towards. There has been allowance given towards childcare...How Does | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
the party of family value get itself into this pickle? Grant will | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
have to answer that he's the Party Chairman. It is a fascinating | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
discussion, I don't agree it is a pickle at all. Very simply and not | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
mentioned, we have just this week said we will have transferable tax | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
allowance for married couples, in other words recognise marriage in | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
the tax system, that is something that would help somebody who was | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
potentionally at home. Has anyone here exercised by the Conservative | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
Party and family values? I actually resigned from the Conservative | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
Party because I believe that they were actually going back on the | :38:42. | :38:50. | |
coronation oath in doing their same-sex marriage business. The | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
coronation oath said that all laws same-sex marriage business. The | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
in this country made by the Queen and parliament should be in | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
accordance with the teaching of the Christian faith. Same-sex marriage | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
is not in accordance of the Christian faith. Who else is | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
concerned about gay marriage? I have been a member of the | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
Conservative Party for 50 years, and as Grant said, I have given | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
blood, sweat and toil, but I resigned in February because of the | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
same-sex marriage. Is anyone else concerned about it? It wasn't even | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
part of the manifesto, this is what is galling. It was just introduced | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
at the last minute. It was a free vote in parliament, every MP is | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
able to make up their minds on it and vote independently, by the way | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
there was absolutely no pressure on it. We know how your leadership | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
felt about it? People were allowed their views on it, I don't think | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
any of it is incompatible with having values and strong family | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
values. The tax break being able to transfer tax allowances between | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
husband and wife and married couple applies to any marriage. Is anyone | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
in favour of gay marriage? I happen to be the national chairman of | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
Conservative Future the aforementioned youth wing of the | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
party. A huge amount of our members believe that love and commitment | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
doesn't believe it matters whether a man and a man or woman and a | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
woman love each other, and it should be expressed in the tax | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
system. The church expressed a concern about being involved and it | :40:33. | :40:40. | |
has been he can cemented. Does it - - He can cemented. Does it bother | :40:40. | :40:47. | |
you? We were neutral. It does frustrate when you hear a | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
Government talking about equality and unfairness and they treat | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
others who want to care for children at home in a deeply unfair | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
manner. You don't have a policy children at home in a deeply unfair | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
towards single income families, what you said earlier is exactly | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
why people are so exercised about how you treat -- exorsised about | :41:06. | :41:14. | |
how you treat stay at home moms, as if it is a luxury. A lot of our | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
members make serious sacrifices to care for their children at home. | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
They are not people healthy in any way. And as I said they are making | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
serious sacrifices to care for those children, they are not taking | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
foreign holidays. You have other people like George Osborne coming | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
along and telling you it is a lifestyle choice, or indeed people | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
like yourself saying it is a luxury. It is not. I don't think that is | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
what I was saying. I think. You did suggest it was a choice? I said | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
there are people who don't have that choice. By implication there | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
are many people who do? Many people can't chose to be at home with | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
their children because they can't make ends meet and they have to | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
work. I'm not talking about the luxury of any kind when I talk | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
about those people. Those people I would like to see this Government, | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
this coalition Government doing a lot more to support single mothers | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
who have to go out to work. Families who cannot make ends meet. | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
who have to go out to work. Let's by all means let's gesture | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
towards commitment and show we believe in stable families and | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
units in all shapes and sizes and do more to help people who can't | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
make ends meet. This is not just about a group of mums who stay at | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
home to work. Stay at home to look after their children, of whom I am | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
one, by the way. It is also about the families who don't have the | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
opportunity to make that choice. I'm going to have to cut you off. | :42:40. | :42:47. | |
We are getting to the talk here this week and for the last couple | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
of weeks at other political this week and for the last couple | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
gatherings about what Governments ought to do rings rather hollow | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
when you look across the Atlantic and see what has happened to much | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
of the Government there. No-one blinked last night in the stare | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
down between Democrat and Republican legislator, result? Much | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
of the machinery of Government simply shut down today. Here is | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
what President Obama had to say. The shutdown is not about deficits | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
or budgets, this shutdown is about rolling back our efforts to provide | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
health insurance to folks who don't have it. It is all about rolling | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
back the Affordable Care Act. This more than anything else seems to be | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
what the Republican Party stands for these days. I know it is | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
strange that one party would make keeping people uninsured the centre | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
piece of their agenda. But that apparently is what it is. And of | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
course what is stranger still is that shutting down our Government | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
doesn't accomplish their stated goal. We have a speechwriter for | :43:49. | :43:57. | |
Geroge Bush but now a critic of the direction the Republican Party | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
seems to be headed. What has gone wrong with the system when a | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
Government can't operate? What has gone wrong here is a strategic | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
mistake. Republicans are opposed to the Obamacare proposal, I am, the | :44:10. | :44:17. | |
sway you repeal it is by having an alternative and winning elections | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
and having a platform. Because Republicans aren't successful the | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
party is frustrated and you have this intense passionate gesture but | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
it is one that will be almost impossible for Republicans to win. | :44:28. | :44:34. | |
Very likely, it is like that scene in Animal House when it is said | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
"there comes a time in everyone's in Animal House when it is said | :44:37. | :44:44. | |
life when for a futile gesture" that is where we are now. I want to | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
explore the way the right is breaking up here and in the states | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
in a moment or two. How can you think this will be resolved? Your | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
right is doing great, I don't know what you are talking about. Say | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
that to some of these guys who have left the party? In Britain the | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
that to some of these guys who have Conservatives are preparing to, are | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
not shutting down the Government, they are preparing to have a second | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
term in Government. That is the way it should be, they are developing | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
policies and winning peculiarities, and maybe a bigger one next -- | :45:14. | :45:25. | |
plurality and maybe more in the next time the Republican Party | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
aren't winning these gestures and they have these policies that don't | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
work politically. How will it be resolved? With Republicans blinking | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
some time over the next week. We have a much more important deadline | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
coming up in the middle of October, around 17th of October, the debt | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
ceiling, what is not well understood outside the United | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
States is there are two different event. The shutdown of the | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
Government as annoying and irritating and silly as it is, it | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
has happened 17-times over the past 20 years it is the Government | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
running past its budget debt line, it is the debt ceiling which is the | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
end of the world scenario that comes in a couple of weeks. Will | :46:03. | :46:09. | |
there be an end to the world? Everyone understands, they are | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
playing with live ammunition at the moment, then they are playing with | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
live nuclear bombs, people don't do that. The legislators getting paid? | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
That is under the constitution, yes, and juplgs are paid. About 800,000 | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
people are if you are lowed, and many are in -- furlowed, and many | :46:25. | :46:32. | |
of those are in Virginia, there is a governor's race there, neck and | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
neck between Democrats and Republican, part of the price will | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
neck between Democrats and be the loss of governorship in the | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
important purple state will be lost to the Republican candidate. You | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
are over here to see the Conservatives? I'm a big fan. This | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
part has not only lost a lot of members, it has also got a | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
political challenge in the shape of UKIP. What do you make of the | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
nature of the right? When the parties lost memberships, you are | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
dealing with disaffiliation from all institutions, the boy Scouts | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
have lost members, the Roman Catholic Church has lost members, | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
clubs and societies of every kind. We are not a joining generation in | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
clubs and societies of every kind. the way that the post-war gin | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
rations were. That is just a general -- generations were. That | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
is just a general phenomenon of post-industrial societies. My | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
advice on UKIP is the conditions are concerned about the loss of | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
votes to the right, don't trade one vote to the right for three votes | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
to the sent. Would you explain that I would say the Conservatives need | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
to deal with the issues. Ukip is dealing with important issues on | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
Europe and the economic crisis, it is important to address those | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
issues, don't be distracted by intensifying your base which is | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
widening the coalition. The tea party is an example what not to do. | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
The experience in Canada is an experience of what to do. The | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
Conservatives widened their base in canned gau practised a politics of | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
inclusion that made the Conservatives in Canada a truly | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
multiethnic party. That is the future, not chasing culturally | :48:12. | :48:18. | |
conservative elements. We leave you with the work of medical engineers | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
from the rehabilitation Institute of Chicago, who say they have | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
created the world's first prosthetic leg whose movement can | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
be controlled directly from the brain like a normal limb. | :48:30. | :48:49. | |
# Daily walking # Close to thee | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
# Just a closer walk with you # Let it be | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
# Dear Lord # Let it be | :48:56. | :48:57. |