09/10/2013 Newsnight


09/10/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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President Obama announced a new boss for the most important Central Bank

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in the world. Who is the woman to be burdened with a job on which the

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rest of the world's fortunes depend? 24 hours a day, seven days a week,

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London circles the globe through the BBC.

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Once upon a time anyone could tell you what the BBC was for. Is it time

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it was put back in its box? We're joined by Jeremy Deller, one

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of Britain's most successful conceptual artists, who introduces

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us to his latest venture, an exploration of the industrial

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revolution. Sheffield, smoke and glim, Parliamentary report 1833.

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Sheffield is one of the dirtiest and most smoky towns I ever saw.

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A couple of hours ago President Obama formally nominated a

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67-year-old economist, Janet Yellen to become one of the most powerful

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women in the world. Assuming she is confirmed as a chairman of the

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Federal Reserve by the Senate, she'll become the first woman to

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head a major Central Bank at a time when most of the world is affected

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by how that bank manages what is a very damaged, but still influential

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economy. Her gender is a nothing issue compared to what she thinks

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about how the economy ought to be handled.

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Yesterday, the US Federal Reserve released its new $1100 bill. It

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looks unlike any of its predecessors.

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It is unlikely that anyone has tried to forge Janet Yellen, but she, like

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the banknote, looks unlike any of her predecessors. Today, she was

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unveiled as the president's choice for the chair of the US Central

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Bank, the Federal Reserve. Janet, I thank you for taking a on this new

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assignment and given the urgent economic challenges facing our

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nation, I urge the Senate to confirm Janet without delay. I am confident

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that she will be an exceptional chair of the Federal Reserve. I

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should add that she will be the first woman to lead the Fed in its

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100 year history. In her Brooklyn accent, Janet Yellen

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accepted the nomination and promised to do more to help struggling

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Americans. The mandate of the Federal Reserve

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is to serve all the American people. And too many Americans still can't

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find a job and worry how they will pay their bills and provide for

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their families. The Federal Reserve can help if it does its job

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effectively. The current Fed chairman, Ben Bernanke, stands down

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next year with the US federal Government in shutdown and debt

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default a possibility, the markets are jittery and uncertain. The World

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Bank and the IMF have their meeting on Friday in Washington, with

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everything else there is to worry about, a new Fed nem knee at least

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crosses one uncertainty off the list.

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I think it is good news that the US Administration is moving towards

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dissipating the uncertainty that exists about who is going to be the

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next a chairman of the Federal Reserve. So who is Janet Yellen? At

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67, she is perhaps the best qualified and most experienced

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candidate for the job ever. For the past two years, she has been Ben

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Bernanke's deputy, before that, a long career in academia and a stint

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on Bill Clinton's council of economic advisers. She can point to

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several occasions in the past when she correctly warned against the

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prevailing wisdom. She was one of the people that did raise, you might

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say, alarm bells, but I think like many of the others who saw the

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problems coming, didn't see the magnitude of the difficulties. Very

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different from those many of those in the mainstream who saw no

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problem, you know, Greenspan, would say there is a little froth in the

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economy, but no real problem. Actually, undertook policies that

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helped create the bubble. So it was a very different stance.

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According to a study, Janet Yellen comes out top. She made the right

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call, says the paper, almost twice as often as Ben Bernanke. Before we

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get tee carried away, her score was still only 52% right, not for

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nothing, is economics known as the dismal science! So what can we

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expect from the future? A continuation of Ben Bernanke's loose

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monetary policy, no early end to quantitative easing in the Scotland

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Yardon -- jargon. And she is an inflation dove, meaning she won't

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bear down on inflation if it means rising unemployment. Her appointment

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doesn't signal a big change. She will be a little bit different. She

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might be soft on inflation and might manage monetary policies that's

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loser than what we have seen with Ben Bernanke. But the broad picture

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will remain the same. The Fed is celebrating its centenary

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this year. 100 years since this movie was made. The world's

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financial system is more complex and more dangerous. The job of Fed chair

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is more difficult. I'm joined now from Boston by

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Harvard economics professor, Ken Rogoff, and from Washington by

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Gillian Tett, the Assistant Editor of the Financial Times. How

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significant an appointment is this? Well, it marks a continuity

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appointment in terms of the actual Fed policies because Janet Yellen

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has been vice chair for a number of years and served longer inside the

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Fed before getting this position than any of the previous Fed

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chairmen. What does mark a radical break is she is the first woman to

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hold this position. Only 10% of the world's 177 Central Bank governors

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are women and she joins their ranks. Does that make any difference,

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Kenneth Rogoff? I think it is very important politically, not in her

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role as being Central Banker, she superb. She is brilliant. She will

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represent continuity in policy, continuity in excellence. But, of

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course, I think the fact that she is a woman is important and everyone is

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going to embrace that. Why? I mean... Gillian, go on.

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going to embrace that. Perhaps I can jump in here and say,

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I mean the good thing about Janet Yellen, apart from the fact that she

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is a very accomplished academic economist, who is good at pulling

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people together, and listening to their points of view, which would be

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important for the Fed as they try and pool people together through

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difficult policy decisions, but the good thing about her, is she looks

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accessible to ordinary Americans. I mean, she looks like your

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grandmother or your neighbour's friend. She is not yet another

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person in a suit who is sitting in an ivory tower and that's important

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right now because the Fed is going to have to really build confidence

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amongst the ordinary American consumers in the coming years and

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get them to believe in what it is doing through this difficult policy

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challenges and at least Janet Yellen represents a new face and a very

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friendly one too. Kenneth Rogoff, what's your view of

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whether she is likely to consider inflation more or less important

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than bearing down on unemployment? Well, I think that she considers the

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unemployment problem just profound at the moment and if inflation

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drifts up a bit that is OK. I really don't think Ben Bernanke was all

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that different. I think he confronted a board where there were

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hawks, where there were people who were sceptics and he pushed back and

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Janet Yellen will do the same. I want to second what Gillian said

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about her being empathetic. She projects it as well. It will help

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the Fed explain what it is doing. No, I think this really is

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continuity in policy because Ben Bernanke was dovish too.

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The other question, of course... Can I jump? Go on, Gillian. Go on. Both

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Ken and I agree she has many skills. I want to raise two questions going

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forward about her skill set. Although she frents a friendly --

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forward about her skill set. presents a friendly face. Will she

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have enough charisma and authority to win confidence of the markets

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going forward given the scale of challenges the Fed will face?

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Secondly, she is a great academic economist, she is not actually had

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that much direct markets experience and if I have one big question, does

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she really smell and read markets in the way the Fed chairman is going to

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need to do in the coming years? Some people might say, it is great she

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hasn't got markets experienced and she hasn't worked on Wall Street.

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There is one question in my mind is about her ability to play a clever

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dance with the markets going forwardmed

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What's your view on that, Kenneth Rogoff? Well, of course, I do think

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basically it is a plus that she has not been in the markets. That it

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represents an independent and integrity that we need. Certainly,

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after the financial crisis, Ben Bernanke had the same thing, of

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course. But I mean this is a person who is the president of the San

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Francisco Federal Reserve. She has been following and you know, she

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will be very effective. She, because she is a consensus builder, somebody

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who is a good listener, she will be able to learn from the staff. She

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won't always insist she is right. She won't always bulldose over them.

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I know she can be tough when she wants to be and when she needs to

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be. I think she has a good mix of these skills.

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The other thing, Kenneth Rogoff, that is likely to be sensitive as

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far as the markets are concerned is this question of continuing or

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tapering off quantitative easing. What is your hunch about that? Well,

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tapering off quantitative easing. there is quite a consensus within

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tapering off quantitative easing. the Fed that she is going to deal

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with that it didn't help that much. That it has some risks and they want

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to pull out. And they handled it very, very badly in May. It was a

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disaster and they are going to have to regroup for a while, but I

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suspect we will be on track to see tapering off if not at the end of

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this year, towards the beginning of next. I don't think this will

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represent a break with that. Is that the right thing to do? That's

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another question. I tend to favour saying more rather than less, but I

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suspect that the strength of the consensus within the board, the rest

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of the board is so strong it will continue to push in that direction.

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Is that your sense too, Gillian? I think there is a lot of debate

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inside the Fed, but I can't emphasise strongly enough how

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difficult a challenge Janet Yellen is going to face. Some people inside

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the Fed think that tapering off the current experiments in monetary

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policy will be like landing a plane. They smooth and very gentle and you

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stop buying assets and the plane comes into land gently and you

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hardly notice. That's wildly optimistic and it will be more like

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a plane coming in for crash landing in a storm with a pilot who can can

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only see half the controls and the radar is broken. What you are

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looking at is an extraordinary new experiment about how you stop this

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quantitative easing. The International Monetary Fund came out

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quantitative easing. The today with an extraordinary estimate

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saying that when the Fed starts to taper, that could create $2.3

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billion worth of losses on taper, that could create $2.3

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portfolios that investors hold around the world in bonds. That's a

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big number. Of course, it is not definite, but the key point is we

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could be heading for a period of real market volatility if not this

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month, then in the next couple of years.

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Well, something to look forward to. Thank you very much indeed.

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If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. It is relative, of

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course, but it is undeniable if they could get their way, some of this

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country's most prestigious universities would charge students a

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lot more for the education they receive. Students have already seen

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university fees treble to £9,000 a year. Today, the vice chancellor of

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Oxford said that that is nothing like enough to he cover the true

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cost which is around £16,000. It is political poison, of course, to

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allow fees to rise to that level, about because of the argument that

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allow fees to rise to that level, they would put smart young people

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off the idea of university. Here is Sanchia Berg's essay.

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The freshers are coming can. Exr -- Oxford's freshers are starting this

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week. Most UK students at Oxford come from affluent families, more

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than 40% went to private schools. While the numbers on free school

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meals have been low and static tor years, for those from less affluent

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households, the university's public image can be daunting. The reality

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is different. The idea that Oxford is only for the very rich or those

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whose parents went to Oxford or are from that background, but I don't

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think that's true. All the misconceptions that you

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think about, it is really posh. It is really boring. It is full of

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really rich people. And I had those misconceptions. I was shocked to

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find it costs the same as any other university. The fees are the same. I

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did have misconceptions and I did think everyone would be from private

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school and they would be walking around in a tuxedo and would live in

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castles. Know how to learn. Know how to

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think. Oxford's vice chancellor wants to

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charge higher fees, saying each under graduate costs the university

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£16,000 a year which would surely make the university more exclusive

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still. So far, don'ts say tuition fees have not been a deterrent. We

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are seeing students are not put off by 2003s. In my eight or nine years

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here, we have never had a student withdraw or suspend for reasons of

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financial need. We will not let it happen.

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Meet the brilliant club. A charity helping bright students from

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comprehensives get to elite universities, they are the kind of

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student Oxford needs to attract. Anyone here thinking that Oxford

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might be wound one of their choices on UCCAS.

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The latest data shows between 2008 and 2011, just 40 students on free

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school meals got to Oxbridge each year. It is not always about

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recruiting students for our college or university. Sometimes it is about

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going into low income communities, low participation communities and

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talking about university in general. Two years ago, the charity k, the

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Sutton Trust looked at where under graduates had come from. They found

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that five schools, four independent, one State, had sent more pupils to

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Oxford and Cambridge than 2,000 other schools combined. And some

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say, that this is the problem. That there is still too many schools

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across the country who don't think that even their brightest pupils can

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apply to these universities. If you look at the top of anything

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in British society, you are looking at close to 50% coming from just two

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universities. So, it is actually, if you want to get on in this country,

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going to Oxford and Cambridge is a huge advantage. It is the number of

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kids going to Oxford and Cambridge from poor backgrounds is incredibly

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low and that is a big issue. Let's to the forget, we are talking

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about two universities, Oxbridge being clobbered again. Oxbridge

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aren't the only top universities in this country. Let's look at the data

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for the kids from the free school meals background who are at the top

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flight universities in this country. You will see different numbers. It

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is not, it can't just be about Oxbridge.

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No, I don't think it is just about Oxbridge. Oxbridge is a kind of...

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Oh, it is tiresome. At Exeter College where I studied in

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the 1980s, the rector has been trying to recruit more students from

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different backgrounds. She thinks there has to be a shift. She tackled

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ministers about it. So far, without success. I think what we really need

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and this isn't an Oxford policy, this is what I think we need, is a

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way of doing what American universities do and ta are getting

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the really clever kids early on at school, maybe when they are doing

:18:05.:18:10.

GCSEs and seeing what their results are, picking them out and con

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tacting -- contacting them and bringing them here and making them

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realise they should be working to see if they can come here and they

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will enjoy it when they get here. You wanted to get more bright

:18:24.:18:27.

children from disadvantaged families into the college ever since you

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came. Have you managed to make a change? It crept up a little, but it

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has not been a dramatic change. That's a course of regret to me.

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Rebecca and Rose are just starting their second year studying history.

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What did they think of the idea? I their second year studying history.

:18:48.:18:52.

think it could be a really useful way of encouraging students from

:18:52.:18:57.

lower income backgrounds to think about Oxford. That's the first step,

:18:57.:19:02.

I think, the application process isn't discriminatory, but getting

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students from those backgrounds to apply is the real problem.

:19:05.:19:11.

Lots of people apply to Oxford wonder if they are good enough. If

:19:11.:19:14.

you are wondering if you are from the wrong social class, it is

:19:14.:19:19.

impossible and then odds are you are not going to apply. Individual

:19:19.:19:23.

targeting would be great. Oxford works hard to persuade

:19:23.:19:26.

students from alall backgrounds that the university could be right for

:19:26.:19:31.

them. There is no sign yet it made a dramatic difference and talk of

:19:31.:19:34.

raising fees is likely to make that job tougher.

:19:34.:19:41.

Well, with us now is Simon Renton who is president of the University

:19:41.:19:49.

and College Union and Dr Wendy from the Russell Group which represents

:19:49.:19:53.

24 of our leading universities. Are we supposed to take this winge from

:19:53.:19:58.

the vice chancellor at Oxford seriously? I don't think it is a

:19:58.:20:03.

winge. We need to make sure our leading universities have enough

:20:03.:20:07.

money to compete with universities in the US, in Asia, in Brazil, in

:20:07.:20:13.

Australia. They have more resources than we do. We as a country spend

:20:13.:20:18.

half what the US does on higher education. We are the equivalent of

:20:18.:20:24.

Chile and Slovakia. We need to make sure the problem is... You would

:20:24.:20:29.

like to see fees raised, would you? There is an issue. Before we talk

:20:29.:20:32.

about fees, we need to look at what is happening in the current system.

:20:32.:20:37.

At the moment, fees don't increase with inflation. There is a problem

:20:37.:20:42.

also with the under funding of some high cost subjects like chemistry,

:20:42.:20:48.

physics, medicine. £9,000 goes nowhere near... So you support his

:20:48.:20:53.

view. What do you think? I agree entirely that particularly the

:20:53.:20:58.

research intensive universities are vastly under funded however, I would

:20:58.:21:03.

say, when I was 26 I was driving London Buses for a living. I stopped

:21:03.:21:10.

work and went to my local college. Now, I'm certain, absolutely certain

:21:10.:21:15.

that I would not do that if I were in that position now with the fees

:21:15.:21:21.

regime that we already have. But the evidence doesn't show that? All I

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would say is my evidence to me does show that. We have got a number of

:21:26.:21:29.

variables. Since fees went up, actually

:21:29.:21:33.

applications have recovered to where they were before. And from students

:21:33.:21:41.

from disadvantaged backgrounds. There are other things that changed

:21:41.:21:45.

as well as the fees introduction. So universities are under pressure, not

:21:46.:21:51.

that heavy pressure, but to widen their access base. There are all

:21:51.:21:58.

sorts of reasons why it hasn't dropped off the cliff in terms of

:21:58.:22:05.

recruitment. Finance, I know this seems counter-intuitive. Finance is

:22:05.:22:08.

not the problem when it comes to increasing the proportion of working

:22:08.:22:13.

class kids in our universities. Can we focus on the main problem? The

:22:13.:22:19.

main problem is under achievement at school. Let him get a word in edge

:22:19.:22:25.

ways. If we solve that problem, we would solve many others.

:22:25.:22:28.

If we solved the problem of under achievement in schools, we would

:22:28.:22:31.

have the magic wand. In the short-term, we have to start dealing

:22:31.:22:36.

with what the problems are in universities and the big problem is

:22:36.:22:42.

that countries are leaving the cuts yoets -- leaving the United States

:22:42.:22:47.

aside, I don't hold the United States up as a good example. There

:22:47.:22:52.

are a handful of elite institutions. We should be going in the direction

:22:52.:22:57.

of Germany and France and the Scandinavian countries where the

:22:57.:23:02.

State is putting money into higher education because they believe that

:23:02.:23:07.

education in general and higher education in particular... So the

:23:07.:23:14.

taxpayer just coughs up more money 1234 -- more money? If we stick with

:23:14.:23:17.

the fees regime that we have is that money is being recovered through

:23:17.:23:22.

taxation anyway. If it is the case that one is better off in the

:23:22.:23:26.

employment market having been a graduate then it is reasonable

:23:26.:23:32.

surely that direct taxation pay a significant, if not the entire cost.

:23:32.:23:36.

Both parties need to contribute and employers as well by the way because

:23:36.:23:39.

everyone does benefit. But it is fair that it the stupt who does

:23:39.:23:45.

benefit -- student who does benefit significantly does pay a higher

:23:45.:23:46.

proportion. You have been talking to significantly does pay a higher

:23:46.:23:51.

the Government. You must have made your anxiety that the fees are

:23:51.:23:58.

inadequate plain to Government. Have they given you an indication that

:23:58.:24:06.

they would raise the fees in relation to inflation? We cannot go

:24:06.:24:11.

on being world-class in this country without access to more funding.

:24:11.:24:14.

And as far as you are aware the level of fees is not going to

:24:14.:24:18.

change? That's my impression at the moment. We would like to make sure

:24:18.:24:23.

that the Government recognises the case. But what is really important

:24:23.:24:28.

coming over is that the current repayment system does not deter

:24:28.:24:32.

poorer students. I don't accept it. Give the message... I don't accept

:24:32.:24:38.

that's the case. The fact that the proportion of pupils from relatively

:24:38.:24:43.

deprived backgrounds and under performing schools has not fallen is

:24:43.:24:48.

not simply a demonstration that the fees are not a deterrent. They are a

:24:48.:24:52.

deterrent to a large number of persons particularly those who are

:24:52.:24:55.

averse to acquiring debt and it is very well to say well, you don't

:24:55.:25:00.

have to pay now. You can pay later. For households which doesn't run

:25:00.:25:05.

mortgages and are not accustomed to running long-term debt that's a

:25:05.:25:08.

threat. To say there are bursaries as grants which you can have...

:25:08.:25:14.

Which there are. You have to apply before you can know whether you will

:25:14.:25:18.

get them. It remains a deterrent to work up that debt.

:25:18.:25:22.

Thank you very much. What's the BBC for? It was

:25:22.:25:27.

instructed that it had to inform educate, and entertain. But then the

:25:27.:25:32.

Sunday Sport could claim to be doing the same and doesn't require a tax

:25:32.:25:37.

to do so. After a series of snouts in troughs scandals among the

:25:37.:25:43.

management, the new Director-General announced a plan to refocus the

:25:43.:25:47.

organisation on drama and entertainment and the arts. There

:25:47.:25:52.

are new services. It seems that the BBC cannot see a media activity

:25:52.:25:56.

without wishing to get into it itself and with lots of lots of

:25:56.:25:59.

public money to spend. What if you could watch things

:25:59.:26:03.

before they were even on TV? It has been a year to forget for the BBC.

:26:03.:26:09.

Hardly surprising that Lord Hall used his first major speech since

:26:09.:26:13.

rejoining the organisation to outline his vision for the future

:26:13.:26:19.

rather than to lament its past mistakes. I want us to celebrate the

:26:19.:26:26.

best of British originality and even eccentricity. This is fundamental.

:26:26.:26:32.

Everything else depends upon it. It didn't sit well with everyone. An

:26:32.:26:37.

editorial in the Financial Times, hardly a hotbed of anti-BBC active

:26:37.:26:44.

vivm, lambasted Lord Hall's plans. It said the new Director-General

:26:44.:26:48.

should refocus the BBC on a narrower purpose and Lord Hall used his first

:26:48.:26:52.

major speech since starting the job to add to the list of BBC sidelines

:26:52.:26:58.

and on Lord Hall's commercial ambitions, if the BBC becomes a

:26:58.:27:03.

commercial media company, it must expect to be funded like one.

:27:03.:27:13.

With us now is John Gapp and James Purnell. I take it that you think

:27:13.:27:15.

With us now is John Gapp and James that the BBC should be doing things

:27:15.:27:22.

like Attenborough? Yes. And Radio 3? Yes and the Proms? Yes.

:27:22.:27:27.

What things shouldn't it be being then? I think I should make it clear

:27:27.:27:33.

that the FT and I believe the BBC should be there. We are not a

:27:33.:27:38.

Murdoch organisation that believes it should be abolished. It has a

:27:38.:27:43.

valuable purpose in British broadcasting, but it has a tendency

:27:43.:27:47.

to stray and empire build. So what shouldn't it be doing?

:27:47.:27:51.

That's an interesting question. That's a question... That you ought

:27:51.:27:55.

to answer. No the BBC fails to answer.

:27:55.:28:00.

You answer it, matey. OK. OK. I think that it should not be doing as

:28:00.:28:05.

much of the sort of programmes that anybody could be doing. Such as? You

:28:05.:28:12.

want me to edit the BBC? No, I want, you write editorials in the FT

:28:12.:28:18.

saying it is trying to do too much. Wh should it stop doing? Stop

:28:18.:28:23.

spreading itself too thin across a lot of light entertainment and do

:28:23.:28:28.

not need the BBC to produce them. What sorts of things? I just said,

:28:28.:28:33.

light entertainment, things that you could, one can often turn on the BBC

:28:33.:28:38.

and see programmes, the BBC talks about them being distinctive.

:28:39.:28:41.

What about Strictly Come Dancing? That's a fine programme, but it

:28:41.:28:47.

could be well produced by ITV. The Voice. How much did the BBC

:28:47.:28:53.

spend on the Voice? The danger with John's proposal... You are not

:28:53.:28:57.

answering the question either! The danger with John's proposal. You

:28:57.:29:03.

would end up with a BBC that FT readers loved and was funded by

:29:03.:29:06.

everyone else. The things they would get rid of would be Radio 1 and the

:29:06.:29:12.

Voice. The listen fee payers said we want more shows like the Voice and

:29:12.:29:16.

Strictly Come Dancing. So the justification is what?

:29:16.:29:20.

Everybody has to pay the licence fee. Everybody should be able to get

:29:20.:29:24.

something from it. Is that the argument? That's right. If you took

:29:24.:29:27.

out the shows that maybe the FT wouldn't want us having, young

:29:27.:29:31.

people would be getting much less from the BBC, but paying for it and

:29:31.:29:34.

that wouldn't be right and that's why the BBC worked. Everybody has to

:29:34.:29:38.

get something and we have to work really hard... That's wrong. James

:29:38.:29:44.

is arguing that we think there should be a more elite BBC. I am

:29:44.:29:48.

very well served. I listen to the radio. I watch the Great British

:29:48.:29:57.

Bake Off. The people I am concerned about is the people paying the money

:29:57.:30:01.

and are at a stretch and the things they want to watch would be provided

:30:01.:30:04.

anywhere. Taking a away from the services and

:30:04.:30:07.

the programmes, they enjoy the BBC for at the moment.

:30:07.:30:12.

Are you comfortable with 180,000 people being taken to court for not

:30:12.:30:19.

paying? It is a tax that's the most unpopular tax in Britain.

:30:19.:30:23.

Actually, the countries which have the most successful public service

:30:23.:30:27.

broadcasting have the most successful commercial broadcasting.

:30:27.:30:29.

broadcasting have the most It is true, if you look at the data,

:30:29.:30:33.

the countries that have the best public service broadcasting are

:30:33.:30:36.

Germany, us and have the best commercial broadcasting and for the

:30:36.:30:39.

reason we compete with etch auto other and bring the best out of each

:30:39.:30:45.

other. If you want to know which piece of

:30:45.:30:49.

music is playing. You pick up your phone and press the app and it tells

:30:49.:30:54.

you. The BBC proposes to produce something similar. Why? It will be a

:30:54.:30:59.

different things and lots of music streaming services have welcomed it

:30:59.:31:02.

because it is what we have done. Right back to the third programme,

:31:02.:31:04.

we have been saying here is something you didn't know about and

:31:05.:31:07.

you will love and that's what this application, the BBC Playlist will

:31:07.:31:11.

do. Why do you worry about it? That sort

:31:11.:31:16.

of application? I am more worried about the point James was making

:31:16.:31:19.

earlier. He was saying that commercial and public go alongside

:31:19.:31:22.

each other. I think they can do so and the BBC can play a cornerstone

:31:22.:31:27.

role. It must concern the BBC that the US which is one of the weakest

:31:27.:31:31.

public broadcasters produces one of the strongest dramas.

:31:31.:31:37.

The US is a big market that other countries have to have a certain

:31:37.:31:39.

amount of public intervention to compete. We should be saying the BBC

:31:39.:31:43.

is a brilliant thing about Britain. We have an amazing industry. It is

:31:43.:31:50.

partly to do with the BBC and by having the BBC... He has been

:31:50.:31:54.

supportive. You are very supportive. I can't understand why James who was

:31:54.:31:58.

a Government minister five years ago, questioned whether or not the

:31:58.:32:02.

BBC should receive all of the licence fee money or whether the BBC

:32:02.:32:06.

should be the definition of what is public service broadcasting or

:32:06.:32:08.

whether or not other people should public service broadcasting or

:32:08.:32:13.

be allowed? A man who questions it... We are the only country other

:32:13.:32:22.

than America who is the net exporter of music and drama.

:32:22.:32:33.

Now, let's Jeremy Deller, the artist who represented Britain at the

:32:33.:32:35.

Venice Bienalle. He is reckoned to be one of the country's most

:32:36.:32:39.

politically engaged artists. In the past, his work has touched on

:32:39.:32:42.

subjects as divergent as the miners' strike and Depeche Mode. His new

:32:42.:32:45.

exhibition, which opens this weekend in Manchester, tackles the

:32:45.:32:47.

Industrial Revolution and its resonances today. Ahead of it we

:32:47.:32:52.

asked him to make a film with us. Here's a taste of it. You can see

:32:52.:32:55.

the full version on our website. If you're as puzzled as I was, Jeremy

:32:56.:32:57.

will be here afterwards to explain! you're as puzzled as I was, Jeremy

:32:58.:33:09.

Meet Sheffield, smoke and grime. Parliamentary report 1843. Sheffield

:33:09.:33:13.

is one of the dirtiest and most smoky towns I ever saw. One cannot

:33:13.:33:18.

be long in the town without experiencing the necessary

:33:18.:33:23.

inhalation of soot which accumulates in the lungs and its baneful effects

:33:23.:33:27.

are experienced by all who are not accustomed to it. There are however,

:33:27.:33:33.

numbers of persons in Sheffield who think the smoke healthy.

:33:33.:33:36.

numbers of persons in Sheffield who I am not one of them.

:33:36.:33:41.

It always used to get on my nerves when they said Sheffield was a steel

:33:41.:33:47.

city. The first time it hit me, I guess, there was this museum on the

:33:47.:33:52.

outskirts of Sheffield which was a really big rolling mill or

:33:52.:33:54.

something. I was watching this process and suddenly like half-way

:33:54.:34:00.

through it, I started feeling a bit tearful. Imagine being in this big

:34:00.:34:06.

space, a big dark place with all this fire flying around and I mean

:34:06.:34:10.

in a way, you know, it is like you are in hell or something. From that

:34:10.:34:18.

point, I suppose, it made me think don't dish the steel. It gave the

:34:18.:34:21.

Sheffield its personality, you know. I believe that that rock'n'roll

:34:21.:34:38.

liberated people from the post-war generation and heavy metal music

:34:38.:34:43.

became a recreation of the sights and sounds of industry for its young

:34:43.:34:46.

audience, most of whom would never work in a factory.

:34:46.:34:53.

Heavy metal is a Requiem for an industrial culture. A way of coping

:34:53.:34:59.

with its loss. There is a slight awkwardness to it

:34:59.:35:04.

as well. You have these schoolchildren looking smart and

:35:04.:35:07.

they are reading out accounts by children their own age basically of

:35:07.:35:11.

being maltreated in the factory, of having to do harsh jobs and so on.

:35:11.:35:24.

I don't think sing in the dark. I am a trapper in the pit. It does not

:35:24.:35:31.

tire me. I am scared. Sometimes I see when I have a light, but not in

:35:31.:35:36.

the dark. I dare not sing then. I don't like being in the pit. I go to

:35:36.:35:45.

Sunday school and read. I don't know why Jesus came to earth and I don't

:35:45.:35:52.

know why he died. I would like to be at school it is far better than in

:35:52.:35:57.

the pit. I think I would miss the expectations we have now and the

:35:57.:36:00.

confidence in sort of, you know, well, that's not right so we're

:36:00.:36:04.

going to change it, but you would either lose yourself in hopelessness

:36:04.:36:08.

or just sort of know that it wasn't right and have to fight against it

:36:08.:36:11.

because there wasn't anyone listening.

:36:11.:36:22.

This is me with my sisters at the age of six or seven wearing a Slade

:36:22.:36:28.

T-shirt. I was like the biggest Slade fan in the world. For Noddy to

:36:28.:36:33.

come here to my flat and talk about Industrial Revolution. Obviously,

:36:33.:36:36.

when I was six, I knew he would be coming to my flat when I was in my

:36:36.:36:41.

40s, but it is kind of weird for him to be here. How are you? Knackered

:36:41.:36:48.

off them stairs. I can't go up them stairs at my age. It has been said

:36:48.:36:52.

that the Black Country produced a lot of great rock singers, Ozzy

:36:52.:36:59.

Osborne, Robert Plant and they reckon it was to do with the

:36:59.:37:01.

industry and the noise of the reckon it was to do with the

:37:01.:37:04.

factories. What I like about Victorian writing is the fact that

:37:04.:37:06.

the word on the page makes it sound Victorian writing is the fact that

:37:06.:37:11.

like it is, if you are sitting amongst it. This reading is from a

:37:11.:37:15.

description of the Black Country where I'm from by the engineer James

:37:15.:37:23.

Naismith written in 1830. The Black Country is anything but picturesque.

:37:23.:37:28.

The Earth seems to have been turned inside out. Its end trials are

:37:28.:37:33.

strewn about. By day and by night, the country is glowing with fire and

:37:33.:37:37.

smoke of the iron works hovers over it. There is a rumbling and clanking

:37:38.:37:42.

of n forges and rolling mills. it. There is a rumbling and clanking

:37:42.:37:47.

Workmen covered with smut and with fierce wide eyes, are seen moving

:37:47.:37:51.

amongst the glowing iron and the dull thud of forge hammers.

:37:51.:38:17.

Sth is a sound recording afloom from a mill in Lancashire. The rhythms of

:38:17.:38:26.

the factory and dance music are not so far removed. The first acid house

:38:26.:38:31.

parties took place in warehouses and former factories. So where people

:38:31.:38:35.

once worked, they were dancing on the remains of the industrial base.

:38:35.:38:41.

Being deafened by music rather than the machines.

:38:41.:39:04.

Life of a factory boy. In reality, there were no regular hours. Masters

:39:04.:39:12.

and managers did with us as they liked. The clocks at the factories

:39:12.:39:15.

were often put forward in the morning and back at night and

:39:15.:39:19.

instead of being instruments of measurements of time, they were used

:39:19.:39:25.

as cloaks for oppressio Though this was known amongst all hands, all

:39:25.:39:28.

were afraid to speak and the workmen was afraid to carry a watch as it

:39:28.:39:35.

was no uncommon event to dismiss anyone who presumed to know too

:39:35.:39:39.

much. When you are on a zero hours

:39:39.:39:43.

contract, you never really knew your hours. So how get more hours? It is

:39:43.:39:48.

a case of, I go to them. These are the hours I can do. Please give me

:39:48.:39:52.

as many as you can and then they come back to me, but obviously

:39:52.:39:56.

everyone is doing the same thingment we are fighting for the hours. There

:39:56.:39:59.

is only so many hours they can hand out at the shop. So some win, some

:39:59.:40:07.

lose. Cap canon Parkinson, on the

:40:07.:40:11.

conditions of the people in Manchester.

:40:11.:40:13.

I worked in the mill. Me mum worked in the mill. My family always worked

:40:13.:40:18.

in the mills. How is where you have grown up affected your work? Your

:40:18.:40:25.

career? I think it has, it is the main kernel of everything I do. I

:40:25.:40:30.

think of all the choices I make and of everything I do. There is no town

:40:30.:40:33.

in the world where the distance between the rich and the poor is so

:40:33.:40:39.

great. Or the barrier between them so difficult to be crossed. I once

:40:39.:40:47.

ntured to designate the tone of Dunkirk town of Manchester the most

:40:47.:40:51.

aristocratic town in England and in the sense in which the expression

:40:51.:40:57.

was used. There is far less personal communication between the master

:40:57.:41:03.

cotton spinner and his workman than there is between the Duke of

:41:03.:41:06.

Wellington and the humblest labourer on his estate. I mentioned this not

:41:07.:41:12.

as a matter of blame, but I state it simply as a fact. In 1973 the

:41:12.:41:22.

wrestler went back to the mine he worked in as a young person and had

:41:22.:41:29.

his photograph taken request his -- and had his photograph taken. There

:41:29.:41:33.

is an image of a tense relationship between father and son, but this is

:41:33.:41:36.

the most important photograph taken after the war as it shows a country

:41:36.:41:41.

trying to come to terms with itself, with its new role in world being

:41:41.:41:48.

based on services and entertainment. 100 years before, in 1873, a song

:41:48.:41:53.

was written about what the future might be like. Now they tell us this

:41:53.:42:00.

world is now at an end # But who prove to its country is

:42:00.:42:03.

what I intend # In a song I wrote in you will see

:42:03.:42:09.

# Everyone will be rich, there will be no need to beg

:42:09.:42:13.

# No stump up and down with an old wooden leg

:42:13.:42:18.

# In your limbs are blown off, the doctors will replace your new ones

:42:18.:42:21.

with ease # The children will feed them with

:42:21.:42:25.

nutmegs and they will grow to such a size you can tell

:42:25.:42:31.

# They can look down into hell # Oh dear, oh dear, what things you

:42:31.:42:37.

will s # Well, Jeremy Deller is here now.

:42:37.:42:41.

What is it really that fascinates you about Industrial Revolution?

:42:41.:42:45.

I think it was a time of immense change. We were the first country to

:42:45.:42:49.

industrialise and then we were the first to deindustrialise so we have

:42:49.:42:53.

industrialise and then we were the seen the spectrum of that and it

:42:53.:42:57.

affected us of how we live now in our cities and culture and music and

:42:57.:42:59.

diet. We are creatures of the Industrial

:42:59.:43:03.

Revolution, aren't we? Yes. Do you think we have lost anything

:43:03.:43:07.

as a consequence of deindustrialising in this country? I

:43:07.:43:13.

think we have probably lost communal values and beliefs, but also we have

:43:13.:43:18.

lost very poor working conditions. I think maybe we have lost some part

:43:18.:43:21.

of our identity. That's maybe one thing.

:43:21.:43:26.

The fact is that in the days when we had a manufacturing industry after

:43:26.:43:30.

Industrial Revolution, we made things. We don't really make things

:43:30.:43:34.

anymore, do we? No, we don't. We tried. I mean we have tried since

:43:34.:43:38.

and obviously to make other things. I mean, we have worked in services

:43:38.:43:43.

and digital economy and that's where a lot of people are employed. That

:43:43.:43:47.

woman worked in a shop. We have tried to, like I said, we were the

:43:47.:43:51.

first to deindustrialise, we have tried to work out what to do with

:43:51.:43:55.

ourselves as a nation. The woman you talked to in that

:43:55.:44:00.

film, who was on a zero hours contract. Are you making a

:44:00.:44:04.

comparison there about employment conditions? I think in a way, I am.

:44:04.:44:10.

I think people, obviously she has few rights because of the contract

:44:10.:44:15.

she is on and you see, obviously in Industrial Revolution, workers had

:44:15.:44:18.

no rights and there seems to be that might be happening. That maybe

:44:18.:44:20.

creeping back with employers getting the upper hand on employees. And

:44:20.:44:24.

making your working conditions less stable and that's what she spoke to

:44:24.:44:28.

us about. As you know, this end of the media,

:44:28.:44:33.

we only ask two questions about art, one is it art? Who is it wor it? Why

:44:33.:44:42.

is an experience like this that you have put together, you have curated,

:44:42.:44:45.

I suppose... Yeah. Why is it art? Well, it might not

:44:45.:44:49.

be, but if you want it to be art, it can be art. Art is just another way

:44:49.:44:55.

of looking at the world and doing something different from how a

:44:55.:44:59.

traditional curator would do something. My show mixes things up.

:44:59.:45:03.

It feels like that as well. So it is just a different way of doing

:45:03.:45:06.

something. But if people don't think it is art, it doesn't bother me, as

:45:06.:45:11.

long as they like what they see or are stimulated by it. That's

:45:11.:45:13.

important. This isn't drawing or painting or

:45:13.:45:18.

sculpture or anything? No. No. Within the show there are those

:45:18.:45:22.

things, but no, I'm just putting these together and showing them in

:45:22.:45:24.

an unusual way. And why is that art? Well, like I

:45:24.:45:29.

said, it might not be. It is just something I find interesting. It is

:45:29.:45:33.

where my skill, if that's the right word, lies is in taking a things and

:45:33.:45:40.

putting them together in these ways. But it can be art.

:45:40.:45:45.

Is it possible this sort of exercise without public funding? Yeah. It is.

:45:45.:45:51.

This is publicly funded. Lots of things are possible without public

:45:51.:45:54.

funding believe me. Do you think the State plays too big

:45:54.:45:57.

a role in the funding of the arts? Not at all. I am glad the State has

:45:57.:46:03.

a role in funding of art. Like the American model, if you leave it to

:46:03.:46:08.

private people with money, it tends to change the nature of the art

:46:08.:46:13.

that's made and it, there is like a lack of balance within the art world

:46:13.:46:16.

because of that. What do you mean? Well, you just end

:46:16.:46:20.

up with things that might please a certain kind of person and might not

:46:20.:46:25.

question certain things and a more in line with those people's tastes

:46:25.:46:28.

rather than the general tastes. Jeremy Deller, thanks. Come back

:46:28.:46:30.

soon. Thank you.

:46:30.:46:37.

The BBC's Director-General announced plans for a BBC One Plus One channel

:46:37.:46:44.

that broadcasts what was on BBC One an hour ago! Not to be outdone, and

:46:44.:46:48.

always looking to please the boss, tonight we launch our own Newsnight

:46:48.:46:55.

Plus One channel. Here we were an hour ago! Good night.

:46:55.:47:01.

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