09/10/2013 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 09/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



President Obama announced a new boss for the most important Central Bank


in the world. Who is the woman to be burdened with a job on which the


rest of the world's fortunes depend? 24 hours a day, seven days a week,


London circles the globe through the BBC.


Once upon a time anyone could tell you what the BBC was for. Is it time


it was put back in its box? We're joined by Jeremy Deller, one


of Britain's most successful conceptual artists, who introduces


us to his latest venture, an exploration of the industrial


revolution. Sheffield, smoke and glim, Parliamentary report 1833.


Sheffield is one of the dirtiest and most smoky towns I ever saw.


A couple of hours ago President Obama formally nominated a


67-year-old economist, Janet Yellen to become one of the most powerful


women in the world. Assuming she is confirmed as a chairman of the


Federal Reserve by the Senate, she'll become the first woman to


head a major Central Bank at a time when most of the world is affected


by how that bank manages what is a very damaged, but still influential


economy. Her gender is a nothing issue compared to what she thinks


about how the economy ought to be handled.


Yesterday, the US Federal Reserve released its new $1100 bill. It


looks unlike any of its predecessors.


It is unlikely that anyone has tried to forge Janet Yellen, but she, like


the banknote, looks unlike any of her predecessors. Today, she was


unveiled as the president's choice for the chair of the US Central


Bank, the Federal Reserve. Janet, I thank you for taking a on this new


assignment and given the urgent economic challenges facing our


nation, I urge the Senate to confirm Janet without delay. I am confident


that she will be an exceptional chair of the Federal Reserve. I


should add that she will be the first woman to lead the Fed in its


100 year history. In her Brooklyn accent, Janet Yellen


accepted the nomination and promised to do more to help struggling


Americans. The mandate of the Federal Reserve


is to serve all the American people. And too many Americans still can't


find a job and worry how they will pay their bills and provide for


their families. The Federal Reserve can help if it does its job


effectively. The current Fed chairman, Ben Bernanke, stands down


next year with the US federal Government in shutdown and debt


default a possibility, the markets are jittery and uncertain. The World


Bank and the IMF have their meeting on Friday in Washington, with


everything else there is to worry about, a new Fed nem knee at least


crosses one uncertainty off the list.


I think it is good news that the US Administration is moving towards


dissipating the uncertainty that exists about who is going to be the


next a chairman of the Federal Reserve. So who is Janet Yellen? At


67, she is perhaps the best qualified and most experienced


candidate for the job ever. For the past two years, she has been Ben


Bernanke's deputy, before that, a long career in academia and a stint


on Bill Clinton's council of economic advisers. She can point to


several occasions in the past when she correctly warned against the


prevailing wisdom. She was one of the people that did raise, you might


say, alarm bells, but I think like many of the others who saw the


problems coming, didn't see the magnitude of the difficulties. Very


different from those many of those in the mainstream who saw no


problem, you know, Greenspan, would say there is a little froth in the


economy, but no real problem. Actually, undertook policies that


helped create the bubble. So it was a very different stance.


According to a study, Janet Yellen comes out top. She made the right


call, says the paper, almost twice as often as Ben Bernanke. Before we


get tee carried away, her score was still only 52% right, not for


nothing, is economics known as the dismal science! So what can we


expect from the future? A continuation of Ben Bernanke's loose


monetary policy, no early end to quantitative easing in the Scotland


Yardon -- jargon. And she is an inflation dove, meaning she won't


bear down on inflation if it means rising unemployment. Her appointment


doesn't signal a big change. She will be a little bit different. She


might be soft on inflation and might manage monetary policies that's


loser than what we have seen with Ben Bernanke. But the broad picture


will remain the same. The Fed is celebrating its centenary


this year. 100 years since this movie was made. The world's


financial system is more complex and more dangerous. The job of Fed chair


is more difficult. I'm joined now from Boston by


Harvard economics professor, Ken Rogoff, and from Washington by


Gillian Tett, the Assistant Editor of the Financial Times. How


significant an appointment is this? Well, it marks a continuity


appointment in terms of the actual Fed policies because Janet Yellen


has been vice chair for a number of years and served longer inside the


Fed before getting this position than any of the previous Fed


chairmen. What does mark a radical break is she is the first woman to


hold this position. Only 10% of the world's 177 Central Bank governors


are women and she joins their ranks. Does that make any difference,


Kenneth Rogoff? I think it is very important politically, not in her


role as being Central Banker, she superb. She is brilliant. She will


represent continuity in policy, continuity in excellence. But, of


course, I think the fact that she is a woman is important and everyone is


going to embrace that. Why? I mean... Gillian, go on.


going to embrace that. Perhaps I can jump in here and say,


I mean the good thing about Janet Yellen, apart from the fact that she


is a very accomplished academic economist, who is good at pulling


people together, and listening to their points of view, which would be


important for the Fed as they try and pool people together through


difficult policy decisions, but the good thing about her, is she looks


accessible to ordinary Americans. I mean, she looks like your


grandmother or your neighbour's friend. She is not yet another


person in a suit who is sitting in an ivory tower and that's important


right now because the Fed is going to have to really build confidence


amongst the ordinary American consumers in the coming years and


get them to believe in what it is doing through this difficult policy


challenges and at least Janet Yellen represents a new face and a very


friendly one too. Kenneth Rogoff, what's your view of


whether she is likely to consider inflation more or less important


than bearing down on unemployment? Well, I think that she considers the


unemployment problem just profound at the moment and if inflation


drifts up a bit that is OK. I really don't think Ben Bernanke was all


that different. I think he confronted a board where there were


hawks, where there were people who were sceptics and he pushed back and


Janet Yellen will do the same. I want to second what Gillian said


about her being empathetic. She projects it as well. It will help


the Fed explain what it is doing. No, I think this really is


continuity in policy because Ben Bernanke was dovish too.


The other question, of course... Can I jump? Go on, Gillian. Go on. Both


Ken and I agree she has many skills. I want to raise two questions going


forward about her skill set. Although she frents a friendly --


forward about her skill set. presents a friendly face. Will she


have enough charisma and authority to win confidence of the markets


going forward given the scale of challenges the Fed will face?


Secondly, she is a great academic economist, she is not actually had


that much direct markets experience and if I have one big question, does


she really smell and read markets in the way the Fed chairman is going to


need to do in the coming years? Some people might say, it is great she


hasn't got markets experienced and she hasn't worked on Wall Street.


There is one question in my mind is about her ability to play a clever


dance with the markets going forwardmed


What's your view on that, Kenneth Rogoff? Well, of course, I do think


basically it is a plus that she has not been in the markets. That it


represents an independent and integrity that we need. Certainly,


after the financial crisis, Ben Bernanke had the same thing, of


course. But I mean this is a person who is the president of the San


Francisco Federal Reserve. She has been following and you know, she


will be very effective. She, because she is a consensus builder, somebody


who is a good listener, she will be able to learn from the staff. She


won't always insist she is right. She won't always bulldose over them.


I know she can be tough when she wants to be and when she needs to


be. I think she has a good mix of these skills.


The other thing, Kenneth Rogoff, that is likely to be sensitive as


far as the markets are concerned is this question of continuing or


tapering off quantitative easing. What is your hunch about that? Well,


tapering off quantitative easing. there is quite a consensus within


tapering off quantitative easing. the Fed that she is going to deal


with that it didn't help that much. That it has some risks and they want


to pull out. And they handled it very, very badly in May. It was a


disaster and they are going to have to regroup for a while, but I


suspect we will be on track to see tapering off if not at the end of


this year, towards the beginning of next. I don't think this will


represent a break with that. Is that the right thing to do? That's


another question. I tend to favour saying more rather than less, but I


suspect that the strength of the consensus within the board, the rest


of the board is so strong it will continue to push in that direction.


Is that your sense too, Gillian? I think there is a lot of debate


inside the Fed, but I can't emphasise strongly enough how


difficult a challenge Janet Yellen is going to face. Some people inside


the Fed think that tapering off the current experiments in monetary


policy will be like landing a plane. They smooth and very gentle and you


stop buying assets and the plane comes into land gently and you


hardly notice. That's wildly optimistic and it will be more like


a plane coming in for crash landing in a storm with a pilot who can can


only see half the controls and the radar is broken. What you are


looking at is an extraordinary new experiment about how you stop this


quantitative easing. The International Monetary Fund came out


quantitative easing. The today with an extraordinary estimate


saying that when the Fed starts to taper, that could create $2.3


billion worth of losses on taper, that could create $2.3


portfolios that investors hold around the world in bonds. That's a


big number. Of course, it is not definite, but the key point is we


could be heading for a period of real market volatility if not this


month, then in the next couple of years.


Well, something to look forward to. Thank you very much indeed.


If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. It is relative, of


course, but it is undeniable if they could get their way, some of this


country's most prestigious universities would charge students a


lot more for the education they receive. Students have already seen


university fees treble to £9,000 a year. Today, the vice chancellor of


Oxford said that that is nothing like enough to he cover the true


cost which is around £16,000. It is political poison, of course, to


allow fees to rise to that level, about because of the argument that


allow fees to rise to that level, they would put smart young people


off the idea of university. Here is Sanchia Berg's essay.


The freshers are coming can. Exr -- Oxford's freshers are starting this


week. Most UK students at Oxford come from affluent families, more


than 40% went to private schools. While the numbers on free school


meals have been low and static tor years, for those from less affluent


households, the university's public image can be daunting. The reality


is different. The idea that Oxford is only for the very rich or those


whose parents went to Oxford or are from that background, but I don't


think that's true. All the misconceptions that you


think about, it is really posh. It is really boring. It is full of


really rich people. And I had those misconceptions. I was shocked to


find it costs the same as any other university. The fees are the same. I


did have misconceptions and I did think everyone would be from private


school and they would be walking around in a tuxedo and would live in


castles. Know how to learn. Know how to


think. Oxford's vice chancellor wants to


charge higher fees, saying each under graduate costs the university


£16,000 a year which would surely make the university more exclusive


still. So far, don'ts say tuition fees have not been a deterrent. We


are seeing students are not put off by 2003s. In my eight or nine years


here, we have never had a student withdraw or suspend for reasons of


financial need. We will not let it happen.


Meet the brilliant club. A charity helping bright students from


comprehensives get to elite universities, they are the kind of


student Oxford needs to attract. Anyone here thinking that Oxford


might be wound one of their choices on UCCAS.


The latest data shows between 2008 and 2011, just 40 students on free


school meals got to Oxbridge each year. It is not always about


recruiting students for our college or university. Sometimes it is about


going into low income communities, low participation communities and


talking about university in general. Two years ago, the charity k, the


Sutton Trust looked at where under graduates had come from. They found


that five schools, four independent, one State, had sent more pupils to


Oxford and Cambridge than 2,000 other schools combined. And some


say, that this is the problem. That there is still too many schools


across the country who don't think that even their brightest pupils can


apply to these universities. If you look at the top of anything


in British society, you are looking at close to 50% coming from just two


universities. So, it is actually, if you want to get on in this country,


going to Oxford and Cambridge is a huge advantage. It is the number of


kids going to Oxford and Cambridge from poor backgrounds is incredibly


low and that is a big issue. Let's to the forget, we are talking


about two universities, Oxbridge being clobbered again. Oxbridge


aren't the only top universities in this country. Let's look at the data


for the kids from the free school meals background who are at the top


flight universities in this country. You will see different numbers. It


is not, it can't just be about Oxbridge.


No, I don't think it is just about Oxbridge. Oxbridge is a kind of...


Oh, it is tiresome. At Exeter College where I studied in


the 1980s, the rector has been trying to recruit more students from


different backgrounds. She thinks there has to be a shift. She tackled


ministers about it. So far, without success. I think what we really need


and this isn't an Oxford policy, this is what I think we need, is a


way of doing what American universities do and ta are getting


the really clever kids early on at school, maybe when they are doing


GCSEs and seeing what their results are, picking them out and con


tacting -- contacting them and bringing them here and making them


realise they should be working to see if they can come here and they


will enjoy it when they get here. You wanted to get more bright


children from disadvantaged families into the college ever since you


came. Have you managed to make a change? It crept up a little, but it


has not been a dramatic change. That's a course of regret to me.


Rebecca and Rose are just starting their second year studying history.


What did they think of the idea? I their second year studying history.


think it could be a really useful way of encouraging students from


lower income backgrounds to think about Oxford. That's the first step,


I think, the application process isn't discriminatory, but getting


students from those backgrounds to apply is the real problem.


Lots of people apply to Oxford wonder if they are good enough. If


you are wondering if you are from the wrong social class, it is


impossible and then odds are you are not going to apply. Individual


targeting would be great. Oxford works hard to persuade


students from alall backgrounds that the university could be right for


them. There is no sign yet it made a dramatic difference and talk of


raising fees is likely to make that job tougher.


Well, with us now is Simon Renton who is president of the University


and College Union and Dr Wendy from the Russell Group which represents


24 of our leading universities. Are we supposed to take this winge from


the vice chancellor at Oxford seriously? I don't think it is a


winge. We need to make sure our leading universities have enough


money to compete with universities in the US, in Asia, in Brazil, in


Australia. They have more resources than we do. We as a country spend


half what the US does on higher education. We are the equivalent of


Chile and Slovakia. We need to make sure the problem is... You would


like to see fees raised, would you? There is an issue. Before we talk


about fees, we need to look at what is happening in the current system.


At the moment, fees don't increase with inflation. There is a problem


also with the under funding of some high cost subjects like chemistry,


physics, medicine. £9,000 goes nowhere near... So you support his


view. What do you think? I agree entirely that particularly the


research intensive universities are vastly under funded however, I would


say, when I was 26 I was driving London Buses for a living. I stopped


work and went to my local college. Now, I'm certain, absolutely certain


that I would not do that if I were in that position now with the fees


regime that we already have. But the evidence doesn't show that? All I


would say is my evidence to me does show that. We have got a number of


variables. Since fees went up, actually


applications have recovered to where they were before. And from students


from disadvantaged backgrounds. There are other things that changed


as well as the fees introduction. So universities are under pressure, not


that heavy pressure, but to widen their access base. There are all


sorts of reasons why it hasn't dropped off the cliff in terms of


recruitment. Finance, I know this seems counter-intuitive. Finance is


not the problem when it comes to increasing the proportion of working


class kids in our universities. Can we focus on the main problem? The


main problem is under achievement at school. Let him get a word in edge


ways. If we solve that problem, we would solve many others.


If we solved the problem of under achievement in schools, we would


have the magic wand. In the short-term, we have to start dealing


with what the problems are in universities and the big problem is


that countries are leaving the cuts yoets -- leaving the United States


aside, I don't hold the United States up as a good example. There


are a handful of elite institutions. We should be going in the direction


of Germany and France and the Scandinavian countries where the


State is putting money into higher education because they believe that


education in general and higher education in particular... So the


taxpayer just coughs up more money 1234 -- more money? If we stick with


the fees regime that we have is that money is being recovered through


taxation anyway. If it is the case that one is better off in the


employment market having been a graduate then it is reasonable


surely that direct taxation pay a significant, if not the entire cost.


Both parties need to contribute and employers as well by the way because


everyone does benefit. But it is fair that it the stupt who does


benefit -- student who does benefit significantly does pay a higher


proportion. You have been talking to significantly does pay a higher


the Government. You must have made your anxiety that the fees are


inadequate plain to Government. Have they given you an indication that


they would raise the fees in relation to inflation? We cannot go


on being world-class in this country without access to more funding.


And as far as you are aware the level of fees is not going to


change? That's my impression at the moment. We would like to make sure


that the Government recognises the case. But what is really important


coming over is that the current repayment system does not deter


poorer students. I don't accept it. Give the message... I don't accept


that's the case. The fact that the proportion of pupils from relatively


deprived backgrounds and under performing schools has not fallen is


not simply a demonstration that the fees are not a deterrent. They are a


deterrent to a large number of persons particularly those who are


averse to acquiring debt and it is very well to say well, you don't


have to pay now. You can pay later. For households which doesn't run


mortgages and are not accustomed to running long-term debt that's a


threat. To say there are bursaries as grants which you can have...


Which there are. You have to apply before you can know whether you will


get them. It remains a deterrent to work up that debt.


Thank you very much. What's the BBC for? It was


instructed that it had to inform educate, and entertain. But then the


Sunday Sport could claim to be doing the same and doesn't require a tax


to do so. After a series of snouts in troughs scandals among the


management, the new Director-General announced a plan to refocus the


organisation on drama and entertainment and the arts. There


are new services. It seems that the BBC cannot see a media activity


without wishing to get into it itself and with lots of lots of


public money to spend. What if you could watch things


before they were even on TV? It has been a year to forget for the BBC.


Hardly surprising that Lord Hall used his first major speech since


rejoining the organisation to outline his vision for the future


rather than to lament its past mistakes. I want us to celebrate the


best of British originality and even eccentricity. This is fundamental.


Everything else depends upon it. It didn't sit well with everyone. An


editorial in the Financial Times, hardly a hotbed of anti-BBC active


vivm, lambasted Lord Hall's plans. It said the new Director-General


should refocus the BBC on a narrower purpose and Lord Hall used his first


major speech since starting the job to add to the list of BBC sidelines


and on Lord Hall's commercial ambitions, if the BBC becomes a


commercial media company, it must expect to be funded like one.


With us now is John Gapp and James Purnell. I take it that you think


With us now is John Gapp and James that the BBC should be doing things


like Attenborough? Yes. And Radio 3? Yes and the Proms? Yes.


What things shouldn't it be being then? I think I should make it clear


that the FT and I believe the BBC should be there. We are not a


Murdoch organisation that believes it should be abolished. It has a


valuable purpose in British broadcasting, but it has a tendency


to stray and empire build. So what shouldn't it be doing?


That's an interesting question. That's a question... That you ought


to answer. No the BBC fails to answer.


You answer it, matey. OK. OK. I think that it should not be doing as


much of the sort of programmes that anybody could be doing. Such as? You


want me to edit the BBC? No, I want, you write editorials in the FT


saying it is trying to do too much. Wh should it stop doing? Stop


spreading itself too thin across a lot of light entertainment and do


not need the BBC to produce them. What sorts of things? I just said,


light entertainment, things that you could, one can often turn on the BBC


and see programmes, the BBC talks about them being distinctive.


What about Strictly Come Dancing? That's a fine programme, but it


could be well produced by ITV. The Voice. How much did the BBC


spend on the Voice? The danger with John's proposal... You are not


answering the question either! The danger with John's proposal. You


would end up with a BBC that FT readers loved and was funded by


everyone else. The things they would get rid of would be Radio 1 and the


Voice. The listen fee payers said we want more shows like the Voice and


Strictly Come Dancing. So the justification is what?


Everybody has to pay the licence fee. Everybody should be able to get


something from it. Is that the argument? That's right. If you took


out the shows that maybe the FT wouldn't want us having, young


people would be getting much less from the BBC, but paying for it and


that wouldn't be right and that's why the BBC worked. Everybody has to


get something and we have to work really hard... That's wrong. James


is arguing that we think there should be a more elite BBC. I am


very well served. I listen to the radio. I watch the Great British


Bake Off. The people I am concerned about is the people paying the money


and are at a stretch and the things they want to watch would be provided


anywhere. Taking a away from the services and


the programmes, they enjoy the BBC for at the moment.


Are you comfortable with 180,000 people being taken to court for not


paying? It is a tax that's the most unpopular tax in Britain.


Actually, the countries which have the most successful public service


broadcasting have the most successful commercial broadcasting.


broadcasting have the most It is true, if you look at the data,


the countries that have the best public service broadcasting are


Germany, us and have the best commercial broadcasting and for the


reason we compete with etch auto other and bring the best out of each


other. If you want to know which piece of


music is playing. You pick up your phone and press the app and it tells


you. The BBC proposes to produce something similar. Why? It will be a


different things and lots of music streaming services have welcomed it


because it is what we have done. Right back to the third programme,


we have been saying here is something you didn't know about and


you will love and that's what this application, the BBC Playlist will


do. Why do you worry about it? That sort


of application? I am more worried about the point James was making


earlier. He was saying that commercial and public go alongside


each other. I think they can do so and the BBC can play a cornerstone


role. It must concern the BBC that the US which is one of the weakest


public broadcasters produces one of the strongest dramas.


The US is a big market that other countries have to have a certain


amount of public intervention to compete. We should be saying the BBC


is a brilliant thing about Britain. We have an amazing industry. It is


partly to do with the BBC and by having the BBC... He has been


supportive. You are very supportive. I can't understand why James who was


a Government minister five years ago, questioned whether or not the


BBC should receive all of the licence fee money or whether the BBC


should be the definition of what is public service broadcasting or


whether or not other people should public service broadcasting or


be allowed? A man who questions it... We are the only country other


than America who is the net exporter of music and drama.


Now, let's Jeremy Deller, the artist who represented Britain at the


Venice Bienalle. He is reckoned to be one of the country's most


politically engaged artists. In the past, his work has touched on


subjects as divergent as the miners' strike and Depeche Mode. His new


exhibition, which opens this weekend in Manchester, tackles the


Industrial Revolution and its resonances today. Ahead of it we


asked him to make a film with us. Here's a taste of it. You can see


the full version on our website. If you're as puzzled as I was, Jeremy


will be here afterwards to explain! you're as puzzled as I was, Jeremy


Meet Sheffield, smoke and grime. Parliamentary report 1843. Sheffield


is one of the dirtiest and most smoky towns I ever saw. One cannot


be long in the town without experiencing the necessary


inhalation of soot which accumulates in the lungs and its baneful effects


are experienced by all who are not accustomed to it. There are however,


numbers of persons in Sheffield who think the smoke healthy.


numbers of persons in Sheffield who I am not one of them.


It always used to get on my nerves when they said Sheffield was a steel


city. The first time it hit me, I guess, there was this museum on the


outskirts of Sheffield which was a really big rolling mill or


something. I was watching this process and suddenly like half-way


through it, I started feeling a bit tearful. Imagine being in this big


space, a big dark place with all this fire flying around and I mean


in a way, you know, it is like you are in hell or something. From that


point, I suppose, it made me think don't dish the steel. It gave the


Sheffield its personality, you know. I believe that that rock'n'roll


liberated people from the post-war generation and heavy metal music


became a recreation of the sights and sounds of industry for its young


audience, most of whom would never work in a factory.


Heavy metal is a Requiem for an industrial culture. A way of coping


with its loss. There is a slight awkwardness to it


as well. You have these schoolchildren looking smart and


they are reading out accounts by children their own age basically of


being maltreated in the factory, of having to do harsh jobs and so on.


I don't think sing in the dark. I am a trapper in the pit. It does not


tire me. I am scared. Sometimes I see when I have a light, but not in


the dark. I dare not sing then. I don't like being in the pit. I go to


Sunday school and read. I don't know why Jesus came to earth and I don't


know why he died. I would like to be at school it is far better than in


the pit. I think I would miss the expectations we have now and the


confidence in sort of, you know, well, that's not right so we're


going to change it, but you would either lose yourself in hopelessness


or just sort of know that it wasn't right and have to fight against it


because there wasn't anyone listening.


This is me with my sisters at the age of six or seven wearing a Slade


T-shirt. I was like the biggest Slade fan in the world. For Noddy to


come here to my flat and talk about Industrial Revolution. Obviously,


when I was six, I knew he would be coming to my flat when I was in my


40s, but it is kind of weird for him to be here. How are you? Knackered


off them stairs. I can't go up them stairs at my age. It has been said


that the Black Country produced a lot of great rock singers, Ozzy


Osborne, Robert Plant and they reckon it was to do with the


industry and the noise of the reckon it was to do with the


factories. What I like about Victorian writing is the fact that


the word on the page makes it sound Victorian writing is the fact that


like it is, if you are sitting amongst it. This reading is from a


description of the Black Country where I'm from by the engineer James


Naismith written in 1830. The Black Country is anything but picturesque.


The Earth seems to have been turned inside out. Its end trials are


strewn about. By day and by night, the country is glowing with fire and


smoke of the iron works hovers over it. There is a rumbling and clanking


of n forges and rolling mills. it. There is a rumbling and clanking


Workmen covered with smut and with fierce wide eyes, are seen moving


amongst the glowing iron and the dull thud of forge hammers.


Sth is a sound recording afloom from a mill in Lancashire. The rhythms of


the factory and dance music are not so far removed. The first acid house


parties took place in warehouses and former factories. So where people


once worked, they were dancing on the remains of the industrial base.


Being deafened by music rather than the machines.


Life of a factory boy. In reality, there were no regular hours. Masters


and managers did with us as they liked. The clocks at the factories


were often put forward in the morning and back at night and


instead of being instruments of measurements of time, they were used


as cloaks for oppressio Though this was known amongst all hands, all


were afraid to speak and the workmen was afraid to carry a watch as it


was no uncommon event to dismiss anyone who presumed to know too


much. When you are on a zero hours


contract, you never really knew your hours. So how get more hours? It is


a case of, I go to them. These are the hours I can do. Please give me


as many as you can and then they come back to me, but obviously


everyone is doing the same thingment we are fighting for the hours. There


is only so many hours they can hand out at the shop. So some win, some


lose. Cap canon Parkinson, on the


conditions of the people in Manchester.


I worked in the mill. Me mum worked in the mill. My family always worked


in the mills. How is where you have grown up affected your work? Your


career? I think it has, it is the main kernel of everything I do. I


think of all the choices I make and of everything I do. There is no town


in the world where the distance between the rich and the poor is so


great. Or the barrier between them so difficult to be crossed. I once


ntured to designate the tone of Dunkirk town of Manchester the most


aristocratic town in England and in the sense in which the expression


was used. There is far less personal communication between the master


cotton spinner and his workman than there is between the Duke of


Wellington and the humblest labourer on his estate. I mentioned this not


as a matter of blame, but I state it simply as a fact. In 1973 the


wrestler went back to the mine he worked in as a young person and had


his photograph taken request his -- and had his photograph taken. There


is an image of a tense relationship between father and son, but this is


the most important photograph taken after the war as it shows a country


trying to come to terms with itself, with its new role in world being


based on services and entertainment. 100 years before, in 1873, a song


was written about what the future might be like. Now they tell us this


world is now at an end # But who prove to its country is


what I intend # In a song I wrote in you will see


# Everyone will be rich, there will be no need to beg


# No stump up and down with an old wooden leg


# In your limbs are blown off, the doctors will replace your new ones


with ease # The children will feed them with


nutmegs and they will grow to such a size you can tell


# They can look down into hell # Oh dear, oh dear, what things you


will s # Well, Jeremy Deller is here now.


What is it really that fascinates you about Industrial Revolution?


I think it was a time of immense change. We were the first country to


industrialise and then we were the first to deindustrialise so we have


industrialise and then we were the seen the spectrum of that and it


affected us of how we live now in our cities and culture and music and


diet. We are creatures of the Industrial


Revolution, aren't we? Yes. Do you think we have lost anything


as a consequence of deindustrialising in this country? I


think we have probably lost communal values and beliefs, but also we have


lost very poor working conditions. I think maybe we have lost some part


of our identity. That's maybe one thing.


The fact is that in the days when we had a manufacturing industry after


Industrial Revolution, we made things. We don't really make things


anymore, do we? No, we don't. We tried. I mean we have tried since


and obviously to make other things. I mean, we have worked in services


and digital economy and that's where a lot of people are employed. That


woman worked in a shop. We have tried to, like I said, we were the


first to deindustrialise, we have tried to work out what to do with


ourselves as a nation. The woman you talked to in that


film, who was on a zero hours contract. Are you making a


comparison there about employment conditions? I think in a way, I am.


I think people, obviously she has few rights because of the contract


she is on and you see, obviously in Industrial Revolution, workers had


no rights and there seems to be that might be happening. That maybe


creeping back with employers getting the upper hand on employees. And


making your working conditions less stable and that's what she spoke to


us about. As you know, this end of the media,


we only ask two questions about art, one is it art? Who is it wor it? Why


is an experience like this that you have put together, you have curated,


I suppose... Yeah. Why is it art? Well, it might not


be, but if you want it to be art, it can be art. Art is just another way


of looking at the world and doing something different from how a


traditional curator would do something. My show mixes things up.


It feels like that as well. So it is just a different way of doing


something. But if people don't think it is art, it doesn't bother me, as


long as they like what they see or are stimulated by it. That's


important. This isn't drawing or painting or


sculpture or anything? No. No. Within the show there are those


things, but no, I'm just putting these together and showing them in


an unusual way. And why is that art? Well, like I


said, it might not be. It is just something I find interesting. It is


where my skill, if that's the right word, lies is in taking a things and


putting them together in these ways. But it can be art.


Is it possible this sort of exercise without public funding? Yeah. It is.


This is publicly funded. Lots of things are possible without public


funding believe me. Do you think the State plays too big


a role in the funding of the arts? Not at all. I am glad the State has


a role in funding of art. Like the American model, if you leave it to


private people with money, it tends to change the nature of the art


that's made and it, there is like a lack of balance within the art world


because of that. What do you mean? Well, you just end


up with things that might please a certain kind of person and might not


question certain things and a more in line with those people's tastes


rather than the general tastes. Jeremy Deller, thanks. Come back


soon. Thank you.


The BBC's Director-General announced plans for a BBC One Plus One channel


that broadcasts what was on BBC One an hour ago! Not to be outdone, and


always looking to please the boss, tonight we launch our own Newsnight


Plus One channel. Here we were an hour ago! Good night.


Download Subtitles