15/10/2013 Newsnight


15/10/2013

News stories with Jeremy Paxman. Including 'Plebgate', the editor of the New York Times, the Iranian foreign minister, can China innovate and the Booker prize winner.


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A Home Secretary calling for disciplinary action against

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policemen and a Chief Constable summoned to appear before MPs.

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Suddenly a lot more is at stake in the so-called Plebgate incident than

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one minister's frustration and bad manners. What happened at the gates

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of Downing Street cost a man his job. Should policemen be considering

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their positions too? The panel should determine whether the three

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officers gave a false account of the meeting in a deliberate attempt to

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support their Metropolitan Police colleague and discredit Mr Mitchell.

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After that we talk to the most powerful woman in world media, the

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editor of the New York Times, on the future of newspapers - if there is

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one. Right now I'm putting this on. In China, Emily learns why we'd

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better disabuse ourselves of ideas that the nation can make things, but

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can't invent them. Wow! That was you, doing that to the strawberry.

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Using my brain. A sensational night at the Guildhall in London, and I

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will have an interview with the youngest ever winner of the man

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Booker prize, Eleanor Catton. We're all familiar with the

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accusation from villains that they've been fitted up by the

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police. It's something else to hear the Independent Police Complaints

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Commission question the honesty and integrity of police officers. The

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commission has decided that three of them should have faced disciplinary

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proceedings for their misrepresentation of what Andrew

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Mitchell said had occurred during his spat with police at the gates of

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Downing Street. That confrontation cost him his cabinet post. David

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Grossman reports. Two incidents of hundred and 20 miles apart. Incident

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one was at the gates of Downing Street on the 19th of September when

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Andrew Mitchell was exiting on his bicycle. Did he use the word pleb,

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he denies it. At the moment it is disguise -- deciding whether to

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prosecute. The other incident happened three weeks later in the

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constituency of Sutton Coldfield. What Mr Mitchell said at the

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interview was disputed. Today the Independent complaints commission

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came down emphatically in his favour. In my opinion, the issue of

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in mystery and integrity, not just naive or poor protect --

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professional judgement. The background to the meeting is

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important. His denial of using the word behind the gates of Downing

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Street were not believed. He was not cutting three. As a last rolled the

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dice he agreed with a meeting with local Police Federation

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representatives at his constituency headquarters. The Police Federation

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said it would be to clear the air and draw a line under the matter and

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it would be a private meeting. It turned out be anything but.

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Unbeknownst to Mr Mitchell, the Police Federation not only alerted

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the media to what was arranged as a private meeting but then completely

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misrepresented what Mr Mitchell had said, and called on him to resign.

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The three officers in the meeting with Mr Mitchell were Inspector Ken

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McHale of West Murcia police, Stuart Hinton of Warwickshire Police, and

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Sergeant Chris Jones of West Midlands Police. Here is what they

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said after the meeting. I think Mr Mitchell has no option but resign.

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He is refusing to elaborate on what happened. I think his position is

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untenable. We know from a secret recording that Mr Mitchell made that

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he clearly explained what he had said in the original incident. I did

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not say, I give you my word, that I did not call an officer a pleb. I

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did say under my breath, but audibly, in frustration, that I

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thought you lot were supposed to supporters. I did say that. And

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there that I apologise. In other words, the Police Federation version

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is at odds with the recording and the transcript. Mr Mitchell had not

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refused to elaborate and had not refused to say what he said behind

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closed gates. Despite that, all three representatives of the Police

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Federation at the meeting said as much in media interviews after the

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meeting. As police officers, they had a responsibility to present a

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fair and accurate picture. The motive seems plain. They were

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running a successful, high-profile anti-cuts campaign and the account

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he provided did not fit their agenda. The Police Federation

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represents all police officers up to and including chief inspectors will

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stop they were and they are engaged in a bitter political battle with

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the government over pub -- cuts to the budget and defence of pay and

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conditions, which the government is were determined to reform. The

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Police Federation therefore enthusiastically leapt on the

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incident in furtherance of their campaign. The commission only

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published a report today because there were so dissatisfied with the

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internal investigation in what was said at the meeting. That

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investigation concluded that the officers had done nothing wrong and

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had no case to answer. Today West Murcia police stood by the

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investigation and officers concerned. Despite the thorough

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investigation under the supervision of the Commissioner is not

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sufficient evidence to support the view that the officers concerned

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should face misconduct proceedings. The Home Secretary says she is

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concerned but powerless to act. I defend the operation of the police,

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but I have to say that in my personal view, in view of the

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statement made by the independent commission today, I think it is

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wrong to them not to take disciplinary proceedings against the

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officers. What was or not said in just 45 seconds in Downing Street

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over a year ago has cost over ?140,000 to the police to

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investigate, but something else has been squandered say the supporters

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of Mr Mitchell, a bit more than the public faith in the police. The

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former Shadow Home Secretary David Davis is here to discuss the latest

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twist in the Andrew Mitchell affair. Can you trust the police? We can

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trust most of them. The vast majority of coppers join up to

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protect the public, feel the collar of a villain and do a job. But some

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of them, that is not the case. We had Hillsborough, the G20 affair

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with Ian Tomlinson, and the public are getting a pattern here. It's not

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representative of everyone but it is systemic in some way. When it can

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happen to one of the most powerful men in the land, Cabinet Minister,

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you wonder what it must be like those people at the other end of the

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social scale. When it first happened and Andrew Mitchell was at the new

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Deer of his representation, his wife was a GP and suddenly found that the

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minority nurses came up to her who worked with, said that they

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understood Doctor Mitchell, because our sons have had this. In Brixton,

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and so on. There is a real issue here. People who are powerless in

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society or have not got the resources to be able to get the

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former Shadow Home Secretary to help out or have not got the contact with

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the press, or don't have the time and commitment, if they are in that

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the position, they would still be there today, unlike Andrew. You

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thought about this. When did the rot set in? It's very hard to know.

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Write down the decades there have been problems, like the Guildford

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four and the Birmingham six. All through that time, broadly

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speaking, the service we got from the ordinary police officer had been

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really good. Our coppers are better than most in the world, but the

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simple truth is there have been systemic problems arising from all

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sorts of things, like the way the logs are filled in. Policemen are

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allowed to confer about it after an incident. If you and I were there,

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we have to give evidence straightaway. Lots of things wrong.

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The other problem, which I think is being highlighted here, is the

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question of whether the police should be allowed to investigate

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themselves. Should they actually be allowed to say that the officers did

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not mean to live? This was not a malicious lie. That was in defiance

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of the fact is, frankly. Very interesting that that used to be a

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left-wing complaint, but here we have right across the spectrum of

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politics, whether it is you or Jack Straw, Simon Hughes, raising against

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the massed forces of the police. Or their representatives. Bearing mind

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there are two things in play. There are the Police Federation that are

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trying to defeat a government who are attacking their terms and

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conditions, as if -- as they saw it. That is compounding the problem. But

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it is a thing across the political spectrum, because we rely on the

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police. This country, historically, has had fabulous policing in

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comparison with most other countries. In other countries of the

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world police have been part of a state apparatus or a problem. In the

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United States, the normal warnings you have to give, they arose from

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the Supreme Court stepping in because some state police were doing

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things wrong. We have had a pretty good service, but nevertheless,

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there is a real systemic problem, I think. We did invite the Police

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Federation on and they did not want to talk to us. I'm not some --

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remotely surprised. There's a new newspaper on sale in Europe today.

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Well, not new exactly. But new to us. The International Herald Tribune

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is no more. In its place is an international edition of the New

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York Times. There is perhaps no newspaper on earth which takes

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itself more seriously. But that has turned out to be no protection from

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commercial reality. It is the job of journalists to record what's

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happened, predicting the future is a job for clairvoyants. The truth is

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that while there are plenty of ideas, no-one knows what the future

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of almost any part of the media is. The New York Times, the Grey Lady,

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has never been overburdened with modesty and claims to be the finest

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newspaper in the world. Mind you, it does have over 100 Pulitzer prizes

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to prove it. It's the product of a monopoly. There is no other

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newspaper in town in New York. They have seen off the national

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competition, the Washington Post which is a shadow of itself, and so

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is the LA Times. The New York Times can do what it wants. Historically

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it has been slow to change, but a third of the paper's online

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customers are from abroad, so perhaps an international edition was

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inevitable. It will not be easy though. All newspapers are

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struggling, even the New York Times. But if you have a global brand, and

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the New York Times has it, it makes sense to go global. All I would say

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is that whereas the British are good at going global, like we have with

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the the Economist, the Daily Mail, and the Financial Times, the

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Americans have not really gone global with their papers. They don't

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quite know how to do it. The editor charged with overcoming these

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challenges is Jill Abramson, the first woman in the job. She has all

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ready had to make controversial editorial decisions, not less

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contentious than the papers reporting with the Guardian about

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the secret files from British and American electronic surveillance

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agencies. She has the pleasure of working with the chief executive,

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Mark Thompson, who used to run the BBC. Well, joining me now is the

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editor of the New York Times, Jill Abramson. You are printing this new

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international edition of the New York Times. Why are you doing it? We

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are still printing the international edition and the New York Times

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itself, because we have a healthy audience of people who love reading

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a physical newspaper. It's a wonderful way to deliver it. But

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does that not prove you are not with the beat? Well, I think the

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important point is that we are a global news organisation now. We

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have printed editions of the New York Times and a very vibrant

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digital presence. Both the global home page and the home page of the

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New York Times, they are full of the best quality information, and there

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is a tremendous hunger amongst readers all over the world for the

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highest quality kind of journalism. That is what we do. But you are

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working on the premise that journalism that you pay for is

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somehow journalism that you do not pay for, is that correct? That is

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not necessarily my premise. But the New York Times, within our business

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model, it involves a paid subscription plan, but for readers

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who are not using our website constantly we allow some free

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content so that we remain part of the world. But why pay for it? Get

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it off a free website like the BBC? There is a quality in the

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information and news that we provide that is worth paying for. Give me a

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hint as to how long you are planning on carrying on printing for? You

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said yourself that nobody knows what the future is going to hold, but I

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feel that we have a healthy audience of readers who love getting the

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print paper and are willing to pay dearly for it. And as long as that

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is the case, which I expect to be for a good long time. Five years?

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Ten years? 15 years? I'm not a clairvoyant. You must have a

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business plan. We have a business plan to continue printing the print

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newspaper and meeting the demands of our audience. More than 800,000

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people in the US, about 250,000 people in Europe, and they all love

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the print paper. And they want to keep getting it. Let us talk about

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Edward Snowden and the revelations you and the Guardian have published.

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Sure. Have you actually met Snowden? I have not met Mr Snowden, no. Have

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you had direct dealings your newspaper with Snowden? We have not

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had direct dealings, no. Who are you dealing with? Mainly, we have been

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analysing the documents that he provided first to the Guardian,

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which shared some of its documents with us and doing our own

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independent reporting, based on what we've learnt from the documents, it

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hasn't really - Does it strike you as odd you have had no dealings with

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the source? Not terribly odd. I mean, it's unusual. Usually, we do

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deal directly with our source, but in other stories in the Wikileaks

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stories, frints -- for instance, we were reporting again mostly off of

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documents and not talking directly to the Wikileaks. You were dealing

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with Glenn Greenwald? Well, no, we weren't. Although, obviously, in the

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case of the Snowden documents he, you know, was the person, you know,

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along with Laura Poitras... You have not spoken to Greenwald either? No.

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I haven't spoken to Mr Greenwald. Anybody on the newspaper who have

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spoken to him? There are reports at the Times who have spoken to him in

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their course of reporting in the story. Your predecessor said he

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would never see his name as a byline in the newspaper, would you? No, I

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would never said say never. You might? I might. I just... I haven't

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faced that decision yet. I will make it when I have to make the decision.

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I take it the reason he didn't want to see his name as a byline is that

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he is a commentator rather than a reporter, is that correct? I think

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he has expressed opinion would be the reason. You don't see that as

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crossing a line? I see it as a consideration in whether, when I

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make that decision, I will decide that his name should appear on the

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news pages of the New York Times. How many... How much of what you've

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got of this stuff has not been published? Quite a bit has not yet

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been published. You know, it's quite a considerable amount of documents,

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but I don't really think that is the important issue. I think the issue

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is that, what the Guardian has published. They have published far

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more aerials than we have. That that... Those aerials are very much

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in the public interest. Inform the public. It distresses me to see

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other people in the media being critical of journalists doing their

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job, which is to inform the public. I think these articles have been in

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service of that. Some things have not been disclosed, despite us being

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in the (inaudible) business, they have not been disclosed for what

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reason? Because responsible journalists actually do care as

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citizens do about national security and the safety of citizens. So some

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things have not been published for reasons of national security? Some

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things have not been published because to publish them would

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possibly harm the safety of the public. Do you mind me asking how it

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is that you know that as owe supposed to the security agencies? I

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would say without at all wanting to come across as arrogant, that I have

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years and years of experience as do many of the reporters who work for

:19:01.:19:05.

me in Washington, where the intelligence agencies are located,

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in dealing with these stories and making very difficult decisions

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where we weigh, you know we balance the need to inform the public

:19:15.:19:19.

against possible harm to national security. We do that very seriously

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and soberly. I just think that experienced journalists can make

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that decision. The head of MI5 say this is does serious damage to

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national security, you know better... No, I'd like to see the

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examples that prove that there has been an actual harm to national

:19:40.:19:44.

security. When the New York Times published the Pentagon papers, back

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in the 1970s, the same claims were made that publishing did grave harm

:19:49.:19:54.

to national security and yet a couple of years after we published

:19:55.:19:59.

them the same officials who said that admitted that actually there

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hadn't been any real harm to national security. So... If a single

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person should die as a result of information disclosed to terrorists

:20:09.:20:13.

because... No person has died. Yet? Well, you say yet. At thes's an

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awesome responsibility? It is a huge responsibility. Do you think other

:20:20.:20:24.

people are better qualified to make that judgment? I don't know if there

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are better qualified people. I'm not saying that journalists are all

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knowing or we obviously haven't been elected by anyone, but I think that

:20:33.:20:43.

we actually do seriously balance the public interest. In as much as you

:20:44.:20:48.

know it? No. In each case we make very difficult decisions after

:20:49.:20:55.

weighing the information. When you saw, for example, public authorities

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coming to the Guardian in this country and the Guardian destroying

:20:58.:21:02.

computers, what did you think? Well, I thought it's unfortunate that they

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had to destroy some of their own computers, but they certainly took

:21:09.:21:14.

steps to ensure that good journalism continued. The that's partly why

:21:15.:21:24.

Alan Russbridger, who I think it a superb journalist, reached out to me

:21:25.:21:27.

to share some of these documents. When you look at the press do you

:21:28.:21:32.

think we are free here, the press here? I think the press in Britain

:21:33.:21:37.

has more restrictions on it than we do. The framers of our country, in

:21:38.:21:46.

the US, had big fear of too much power put in the central government.

:21:47.:21:53.

As a bulwark against any excesses on the part of the government they

:21:54.:21:58.

believe passionately in the need for a free press. I think that is a

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stronger tradition in the US than it is here. I take it if you were

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editing your paper in this country you wouldn't be signing up to the

:22:09.:22:12.

proposed charter? Probably not. Thank you very much. Thanks. A

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senior official of the Iranian government gave the sort of summing

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up that reporters dread today. Asked about what happened in between his

:22:22.:22:25.

country and six of the world's most powerful nation abouts Iran's

:22:26.:22:34.

nuclear programme he gave the spectacularly unilluminating comment

:22:35.:22:37.

that it was too early to say whether they had made any progress. The

:22:38.:22:40.

White House too is saying that it will be a long-haul. The meeting was

:22:41.:22:54.

in gooe and we spent the day with Mark Urban with his ear to whatever

:22:55.:22:58.

keyhole he could find. All the feel good created by the election of a

:22:59.:23:03.

new Iranian government, it had yet to answer the demands of the outside

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world or make a proposal of substance. We have come here with a

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sense ever cautious optimism and a great sense of determination because

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we believe it is really time now for tangible results. As the Iranians

:23:21.:23:25.

began to unveil their road map in the Palace of Palace of Le, Geneva's

:23:26.:23:33.

monument to previous failed statesmen, there was a sense the

:23:34.:23:39.

meeting had to produce results. Both sides need rapid process. The

:23:40.:23:43.

Iranians want an easing of international sanctions. The

:23:44.:23:47.

Westerners want to be sure as what they saw as the time wasting tactics

:23:48.:23:52.

of previous Iranian governments are now well and truly over. The longer

:23:53.:23:55.

they go on without a solution of course, the more developed Iran's

:23:56.:24:02.

nuclear programmes get. The first, lasting six months, or up to April

:24:03.:24:06.

next year, would involve inspections and a lifting of sanctions. Phase

:24:07.:24:11.

two, which would extend through next summer, would be the period where

:24:12.:24:18.

confidence building measures would take place. Leading in one year's

:24:19.:24:24.

time to phase three, an end state where the international community

:24:25.:24:28.

would recognise the peaceful nature of Iran's remaining programmed and

:24:29.:24:33.

its future would be guaranteed. What would Iran concede? That's another

:24:34.:24:38.

question. I'm sure the details of negotiations will, at some point,

:24:39.:24:41.

come out. The the question is, should they come out while the

:24:42.:24:46.

negotiations are ongoing to open up space for criticism and backlash

:24:47.:24:52.

given the domestic sensitivities in both Tehran or Washington, or should

:24:53.:24:57.

they wait until they reach a final agreement and at that time announce

:24:58.:25:01.

it to the world? The Iranians would prefer the second option. My

:25:02.:25:05.

understanding is that is attractive and acceptable for the P5 plus 1.

:25:06.:25:10.

Indeed, once the morning's presentation was finished, the

:25:11.:25:20.

deputy -- Mr Zarif's deputy came over to brief the press. The meeting

:25:21.:25:25.

was very positive, but we are going to discuss about the details of

:25:26.:25:29.

Iranian plan in the afternoon. This afternoon, when the fuller

:25:30.:25:33.

discussions began, the western countries changed their tune. In

:25:34.:25:37.

fact they stopped briefing anxious to digest what they were hearing and

:25:38.:25:44.

aware that the old, we await Iran's proposal with interest line had been

:25:45.:25:49.

overtaken by people in a hurry. Obviously time is of the essence.

:25:50.:25:52.

The Iranians want to move fast. They want to get to age stant agreement

:25:53.:25:57.

in a matter of a year. They want to have interim measures that are not

:25:58.:26:01.

separated by more than three months. The reason is that they want to make

:26:02.:26:06.

sure that, first of all, there is positive momentum and diplomacy so

:26:07.:26:09.

that talks will move forward. Second, they want to make sure there

:26:10.:26:14.

is not enough space for the spoilers to derail diplomacy. Tonight, there

:26:15.:26:17.

was a further meeting between Baroness Ashton and Mr Zarif. The

:26:18.:26:23.

atmosphere of tense expectation has gone to be replaced by the search

:26:24.:26:28.

for a deal both sides can live with and sell to their own sceptics.

:26:29.:26:36.

There will soon be one fewer among the female bosses in big British

:26:37.:26:41.

firms. The Chief Executive of the fashion firm, Burberry, is quitting

:26:42.:26:45.

to join Apple. Angela Ahrendts has been given the credit for the

:26:46.:26:51.

dechaving the company and finding ever more ingenious ways of getting

:26:52.:26:55.

rich people around the worlded to pay increasing amounts of money for

:26:56.:27:00.

clothing and accessories marked with the distinctive check. The stock

:27:01.:27:05.

market greeted news of her departure by dumping shares in the company,

:27:06.:27:09.

which can't have made for a very happy teatime for her successor. We

:27:10.:27:14.

report now on the transfer market in Chief Executives. The shareholders

:27:15.:27:22.

at Burberry couldn't pay their Chief Executive a higher compliment. She

:27:23.:27:27.

leaves and the share price drops. The city equivalent of Alex

:27:28.:27:31.

Fergusson leaving Manchester United. That is what happened to Angela

:27:32.:27:36.

Ahrendts when she announced she was leaving to run the stores of a

:27:37.:27:44.

company struggling to maintain its Success. Apple will have to pay her

:27:45.:27:51.

well. She made the brand cool. She branched out into other lines. She

:27:52.:27:56.

made her presence felt in emerging economies. Where the emerging

:27:57.:28:02.

economy tourn tourists are coming to Europe Burberry is one of the first

:28:03.:28:06.

places they want to visit. The company had been broadening its

:28:07.:28:09.

appeal and die lighting. Since she took it over in 2006 its

:28:10.:28:31.

valued has trebled. She appeals in a modern way to the middle-classes of

:28:32.:28:41.

China and Japan. That is exactly what Apple needs. If you are the

:28:42.:28:43.

world's number one most fashionable tech company you have an anxiety,

:28:44.:28:48.

staying fashionable. You have to win in those far east markets or you

:28:49.:28:52.

won't be number one any more. Right now Apple is losing. They may be the

:28:53.:28:57.

world's best-known tech company, the cult of Apple was the cult of Steve

:28:58.:29:01.

Jobs. There is doubt that without him it can keep up the growth. With

:29:02.:29:07.

Nokia and BlackBerry in decline, tech companies are desperate for

:29:08.:29:12.

executives who not only run them, but change them, not for the money.

:29:13.:29:17.

I don't think it's about the money. I have worked for many individuals

:29:18.:29:21.

who have moved for less money than they are earning because the

:29:22.:29:25.

challenge, the brand the technology was a motivator that made them move.

:29:26.:29:30.

The money is secondary when we look throughthrough individuals. Who can

:29:31.:29:35.

turn companies round switch companies like Premiership players

:29:36.:29:40.

switching clubs. The top transfers are are:

:29:41.:29:53.

What is it for strongholders that make the right Chief Executive worth

:29:54.:30:01.

so much? Their ability to score goals. If you imagine the plates

:30:02.:30:04.

they need to spin at any one time. They have to consider strategy, they

:30:05.:30:09.

have to consider staff, shareholders and lists. They have to make sure

:30:10.:30:13.

that the brand keeps delivering all of these things have to happen at

:30:14.:30:18.

once. How much of those glittering reputations are down to skill and

:30:19.:30:24.

how much to luck? Before Mark Bowland joined Morrisons had had

:30:25.:30:30.

warned that its profits would disappoint. He joined and in two

:30:31.:30:37.

years the company grew bye-bye a quarter. Marks Spencer hired

:30:38.:30:44.

Bowland and their shares have slumped. He is a retail man, that is

:30:45.:30:50.

what these things are, whether it is beer or food. Fashion is different.

:30:51.:30:55.

What surprised me when Mark Bowland joined is that he didn't change the

:30:56.:31:00.

key people responsible for the fashion. The fashion is middle-aged

:31:01.:31:09.

and dowdy. John Browit would have collected ?36 million for running

:31:10.:31:14.

Apple's stores, he left after six months. Company hiring Chief

:31:15.:31:17.

Executives may believe they are paying for skill, how their latest

:31:18.:31:22.

signing works out also has an element of luck.

:31:23.:31:26.

With nurses Louise Cooper, who is a city analyst -- with us now. And we

:31:27.:31:35.

are joined by Professor Bill George. Professor George, how easy

:31:36.:31:39.

is it for a chief executive to change companies like this? It's

:31:40.:31:44.

very unusual to change from being a CEO and then heading up a part of

:31:45.:31:50.

the company. I think this is a real coup for Apple. A brilliant move to

:31:51.:31:53.

bring in someone with such creative skill. Angela has done an amazing

:31:54.:31:58.

job at Burberry, turning round what could have been a dowdy fashion

:31:59.:32:02.

brand and bringing it round the world. They are the great benefactor

:32:03.:32:08.

here. A wonderful talent who will bring in more creativity in

:32:09.:32:10.

combining the online and retail staff. Ron Johnson set up the Apple

:32:11.:32:18.

Store is very well. They have not had anyone in charge than two years,

:32:19.:32:22.

and I think it is the loss for Burberry. How easy is it for a chief

:32:23.:32:27.

executive to move from one company to another? I think it is

:32:28.:32:34.

interesting what she has done, because Burberry might be a FTSE 100

:32:35.:32:39.

company but it is tiny compared to Apple. Apple is 100 times larger

:32:40.:32:44.

than Burberry. She has gone from being a very big fish in a small

:32:45.:32:53.

pond to a small fish in a massive, massive pond. Everybody talks about

:32:54.:32:58.

her skills and they say she is brilliant at Digital, because she

:32:59.:33:03.

put the fashion show on line and put the fashion things on twitter.

:33:04.:33:08.

Brilliant, digital, but that's a different level of digital expertise

:33:09.:33:12.

than the iPhone and the iPad. This is quite an unusual move for both

:33:13.:33:18.

sides. Professor, are their common characteristics amongst these people

:33:19.:33:22.

who are handed out by companies to revive their fortunes? Today's CEO

:33:23.:33:32.

's have to address all of the stakeholders and constituencies, so

:33:33.:33:36.

they are public figures. Not just someone who sits in and runs a

:33:37.:33:39.

business and meets the needs of the shareholders and boards. They have

:33:40.:33:42.

to meet the needs of the general public, particularly in a retail

:33:43.:33:47.

business like Apple or Burberry. You have to be out there with the people

:33:48.:33:51.

and have a sense of fashion and where people are going. Steve jobs

:33:52.:33:55.

had that. I think she will bring that to Apple. Do they have common

:33:56.:34:03.

character traits? Warney is being who you are and authentic. Another

:34:04.:34:08.

-- one is being. Another is a willingness to keep balls in the air

:34:09.:34:11.

and the other is being very self-determined. She has proven she

:34:12.:34:15.

has all of those qualities. Frankly, she will be a CEO again, mark my

:34:16.:34:22.

words. I think what she did at Burberry show is one of the most

:34:23.:34:28.

important is to have had to have a vision for the future. What business

:34:29.:34:32.

am I in? Where do I wanted to be? I want to be the best. If you do not

:34:33.:34:39.

have the vision she had at Burberry, but you need it, even if

:34:40.:34:44.

she can't have it Apple. The other thing you need to do is take your

:34:45.:34:48.

staff with you. You are only one person. You need to create leaders

:34:49.:34:53.

and nurture talent. Numbers are easy, people are difficult. You have

:34:54.:34:57.

to be really good people. Take a chord with you? Yes, when you are

:34:58.:35:04.

CEO, you are top of the pile. You have to create people that share the

:35:05.:35:08.

strong vision. There is a great expression which says you cannot

:35:09.:35:14.

blow an uncertain trumpet. You need to know where you are going to go

:35:15.:35:17.

and then take everyone else with you. The mark of a good CEO is that

:35:18.:35:25.

people focus on you. The mark of a bad CEO is the focus on numbers.

:35:26.:35:29.

Numbers are easy, people are difficult. I will have to cut you

:35:30.:35:35.

both off, but thank you very much indeed. George Osborne continued

:35:36.:35:38.

trundling around China today, trying to promote trade between the two

:35:39.:35:42.

countries. As the Chinese economy powers ahead, much of the rest of

:35:43.:35:45.

the world has consoled itself with the vanity that while it may be

:35:46.:35:49.

capable of bashing metal or dying jeans, the real creative work - the

:35:50.:35:52.

most added value - is the property of the West. But is this comforting

:35:53.:35:54.

vanity true? Emily's in Shenzhen. If success is measured by the height

:35:55.:36:10.

of your buildings, the speed of your trains, or the waving of your

:36:11.:36:14.

national flag in space, China's revolution is complete. But the

:36:15.:36:21.

Middle Kingdom is still resolutely middle income. When it comes to

:36:22.:36:25.

high-tech innovation, China still cannot compete with the world 's

:36:26.:36:31.

most profitable companies. That ubiquitous phrase, made in China,

:36:32.:36:35.

has yielded this. But those three words you find on your phone,

:36:36.:36:40.

laptop, tablet, distorts the real story. Yes, they were made here, but

:36:41.:36:45.

the design, the idea behind it, has come from elsewhere. That is where

:36:46.:36:49.

the profits go, and that is what China wants a share now. -- a share

:36:50.:37:02.

of now. At the vanguard of the mission is Huawei, which has become

:37:03.:37:06.

the second largest company in technology on earth. It has global

:37:07.:37:11.

aspirations, and a silicon voice to match. We do intellectual property

:37:12.:37:18.

development and have half of the workforce, 70,000 of the 150,000

:37:19.:37:24.

they do reach and development. George Osborne arrives here tomorrow

:37:25.:37:28.

to tell Huawei he wants them to invest in Britain. Many companies do

:37:29.:37:31.

not want that investment. A big problem for the high-tech industry

:37:32.:37:35.

in China is that it greeted with suspicion wherever it goes. Huawei

:37:36.:37:40.

has even had claims of spying. The American government accused Huawei

:37:41.:37:42.

being a surveillance company described as a telecoms company.

:37:43.:37:47.

What is your response? Hypothetically, the accusation put

:37:48.:37:52.

to us is that we are being used to do espionage that the Chinese

:37:53.:37:55.

government. We have said we would never do that. If we got a call from

:37:56.:38:00.

Beijing, we would not do that. Why? Because it would be commercial

:38:01.:38:05.

suicide. Another accusation is that China stop companies from companies

:38:06.:38:13.

operating here, and copies their ideas, calling it block and Cologne.

:38:14.:38:20.

First we allow Chinese companies to copycat every international

:38:21.:38:26.

successes. You have Google, we have our own online search. The reason is

:38:27.:38:31.

to draw the Chinese users to the server which they can 100% control.

:38:32.:38:36.

A business model based not on risk and thought but on cut and paste.

:38:37.:38:40.

It's very difficult to create a culture of innovation in a world

:38:41.:38:44.

where communication is censored. If you have a place to innovate, you

:38:45.:38:49.

need at least the Freedom of information or the freedom of

:38:50.:38:58.

speech. Huawei's engineers have headed for lunch. China has invested

:38:59.:39:02.

billions, five times more on research and development, but the

:39:03.:39:06.

trouble is that money cannot deliver a household brand name, top ten

:39:07.:39:10.

university or a Nobel Prize in science. Every day, at 12pm, 10,000

:39:11.:39:19.

workers descend on the cafeteria for 50 minutes and then they are. This

:39:20.:39:24.

is how China has worked so off -- far, a model of order and

:39:25.:39:28.

efficiency. What it has not been about is a disruption, a questioning

:39:29.:39:31.

of the normal, something that diversifies away from that. Right

:39:32.:39:38.

now, we are putting this on. David is breaking the mould. He studied in

:39:39.:39:42.

Canada and runs one of the most exciting start-ups here. His device

:39:43.:39:47.

allows you to move objects on-screen with the power of thought. So I am

:39:48.:39:50.

trying to make the strawberry explode? Wow! So that was you, you

:39:51.:40:01.

doing that to the strawberry. From your brain. In a culture where

:40:02.:40:07.

deference to authority is paramount, he says that the key is learning to

:40:08.:40:12.

think differently, and that is where China may struggle. One problem is

:40:13.:40:17.

that the education system in China tries to order all of the students

:40:18.:40:24.

to become one ideal model. It is not celebrating the individual

:40:25.:40:32.

characteristics. That is something recognising the root of kindergarten

:40:33.:40:35.

down the road. You won't have seen this before. Here they encourage

:40:36.:40:39.

happy chaos. No uniform, no water, little discipline. Mrs Lee has been

:40:40.:40:45.

a teacher for 22 years and she says things are changing. Everyone has a

:40:46.:40:56.

different personality. We are used to focusing on control, but now we

:40:57.:41:00.

let them have freedom. We want them to explore, be more creative.

:41:01.:41:08.

Unleashing the forces of innovation could take the country to the next

:41:09.:41:11.

level of development, but can China's leaders really afford to let

:41:12.:41:15.

people think differently? Letting go could, at a cost. -- could come at a

:41:16.:41:21.

cost. The result of the literary world's

:41:22.:41:25.

most commercially important book prize was announced tonight at the

:41:26.:41:28.

Guildhall. This year's Man Booker award is the last from which, for

:41:29.:41:31.

good or ill, American authors are excluded. The winner, Eleanor Catton

:41:32.:41:37.

spoke to Kirsty a few minutes ago. There has been great excitement here

:41:38.:41:41.

at the Guildhall in London. The 45th Man Booker Prize has been won by the

:41:42.:41:46.

New Zealander Eleanor Catton for The Luminaries. She is the longest ever

:41:47.:41:50.

-- youngest ever winner with the longest ever book. At first a little

:41:51.:41:55.

ball about The Luminaries. Standing at a colossal 832 pages, the story

:41:56.:41:59.

recounts a series of unsolved crimes, involving a missing wealthy

:42:00.:42:04.

man, a near dead prostitute, and an enormous amount of money found in

:42:05.:42:08.

the home of a luckless recruits. However, as the worker -- reader

:42:09.:42:12.

work through each layer of the story, the layout of the novel takes

:42:13.:42:22.

status -- centrestage. -- the winter -- widow said I am not mistaken. I

:42:23.:42:26.

am very skilled at reading this. The moon is waxing above the cloud and

:42:27.:42:31.

it will be full by Monday night and on Tuesday it will begin to wane.

:42:32.:42:35.

Next month will be a month without a moon. Eleanor Catton is with me.

:42:36.:42:41.

Many congratulations. Robert McFarlane, the chair of the judge

:42:42.:42:45.

panel, said it was an awesome achievement. You are the youngest

:42:46.:42:50.

ever winner, the second New Zealander and it is the longest ever

:42:51.:42:54.

book. What was it like up there tonight? It was overwhelming,

:42:55.:43:04.

actually. I almost can't remember the few minutes after the prize was

:43:05.:43:08.

announced. You essentially wrote a murder mystery, but you can strange

:43:09.:43:12.

yourself in the structure, set around the zodiac. But it was also

:43:13.:43:16.

revealing, because not so many people know about the second gold

:43:17.:43:19.

rush in New Zealand, and it was clearly something you wanted to

:43:20.:43:24.

explore, 19th-century New Zealand. I grew up in Christchurch on the East

:43:25.:43:31.

side of New Zealand. I made a lot of trips to the West Coast with my

:43:32.:43:34.

family to go camping and spend time in the outdoors. It was always a

:43:35.:43:38.

part of New Zealand that captured my mind and heart in a way. Somewhere

:43:39.:43:49.

along the way it had taken root as a possible site for a story. You said

:43:50.:43:55.

you started with the idea of a man going into the bar. Was that the

:43:56.:43:59.

start of a joke? It is like the start of a joke. I was seduced by

:44:00.:44:08.

the idea of a 12th man, a man being not convicted of a crime, but

:44:09.:44:14.

implicated. I had the idea that a 13th man could walk into a gathering

:44:15.:44:18.

where they were discussing this crime that they were implicated by

:44:19.:44:24.

and disrupt their machinations. That is where the book get -- began. You

:44:25.:44:31.

are clearly wanted to make it a 19th-century novel. You have the

:44:32.:44:34.

motifs at the beginning and the moralising. Was that an influence?

:44:35.:44:39.

Was it 19th-century literature? I read a lot of 19th-century

:44:40.:44:42.

literature when I was researching the book, chiefly because I think

:44:43.:44:47.

there are so many thought -- things that. There are so many cultural

:44:48.:44:54.

behaviours or languages that maybe we won't necessarily see. There is

:44:55.:45:05.

so much about Victorian values and beliefs, and I needed to immerse

:45:06.:45:12.

myself. You said at the same time, in a weird way, you up influenced by

:45:13.:45:18.

the idea of a box set, a late 20th-century phenomenon. I am

:45:19.:45:26.

slightly addicted to boxed sets. I'm surprised you get the time. The

:45:27.:45:30.

amount of time it must have taken you to write this! The normal

:45:31.:45:34.

routine is writing in the day, TV at night. You also decided yourself

:45:35.:45:41.

that you would have a containing structure which would end with a

:45:42.:45:47.

tiny sentence at the end. Was that hard to construct? I was obsessed

:45:48.:45:51.

with the idea of the golden ratio when I read the book. That something

:45:52.:45:57.

could have a skeletal shape that would be beautiful in its own right.

:45:58.:46:00.

I tried to put that into the shape of the book as much as I could.

:46:01.:46:06.

Congratulations, you are ?50,000 the richer, doesn't matter so much, but

:46:07.:46:09.

a wonderful achievement. Back to the studio.

:46:10.:46:11.

That's it for tonight. The BBC announced today that they're digging

:46:12.:46:22.

up yet another bunch of long-dead children's TV characters. The

:46:23.:46:25.

Clangers are coming back. To mark this important occasion, we've

:46:26.:46:27.

unearthed a rarity from 39 years ago, believed by some to have been

:46:28.:46:33.

lost forever. In October 1974, the BBC broadcast a special Clangers

:46:34.:46:36.

episode on election day, inspired by creator Oliver Postgate's anger over

:46:37.:46:39.

the miners strike and the three day week. Who knows how it changed the

:46:40.:46:48.

course of history. I make no bones about the excesses... Our planet

:46:49.:46:55.

seems noisy, and it must seem onto other planets. Look, suppose you

:46:56.:47:01.

wanted to have a government, you could choose the government of the

:47:02.:47:08.

soup Dragon, for instance? Free soup for all! That should capture the

:47:09.:47:20.

votes. No soup for the froglets, you do learn fast. Whatever the soup

:47:21.:47:26.

Dragon once, you will give it him. Wait a minute! Wait a minute

:47:27.:47:30.

exhibition mark I was only trying to show how we do things on our planet.

:47:31.:47:34.

Plebgate unravels. The editor of the New York Times. The Iranian foreign minister. Can China innovate, and the Booker prize winner. With Jeremy Paxman.


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