23/10/2013 Newsnight


23/10/2013

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One of the biggest industrial areas in Scotland will be closed down.

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Might someone be found who could make it pay? I have been talking to

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Scotland's for instance as he tries to broker last-ditch deal. As part

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of the apology that we have already given there should be included in

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that apology, if we are going to give that apology we should give it

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personally and not in this forum. You are planning to see Mr Mitchell

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and give him an apology. If there is one due with regard to... (laughter)

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Mr Hinton this is not a television game show. Why did the police who

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met Andrew Mitchell in this room give such misleading accounts of

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what happened. Why won't they give a proper apology. Totally there will

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be a revolution, it is totally going to happen. I haven't a flicker of

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doubt, this is the end. A highbrow interview with Russell Brand. This

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is the green grass where I take my dogs and I just let them do what

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they want. This little bit of green here? Because it is quite a small I

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can't remember, there is a lot of dog mess. And has childhood finally

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been divorced from nature? And does it matter? There are elements of the

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industrial dispute at the petro-chemical plant at Grangemouth

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which promise a trip straight back to the 1970s. A loss-making factory,

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a work force that believes it has cast iron agreements about pay,

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conditions and pensions which the management are now going back on. A

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Government says it cannot and will not be a mere speck taker. It ought

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-- spectator. It thought to be washed out in colour, it is real and

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worrying enough if you are one of the thousands likely to be badly

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affected. Today the owners of EOS announced they were shutting the

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gates. After hearing the announcement workers began to leave

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the site which employs 800 people directly with a further 2,000 jobs

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reliant on the site. I'm sorry, no. It is going to be HOR rendous trying

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to live -- HOR rendous trying to live after this. The owner, InEos

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said they were willing to invest ?300 million, but only if the unions

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agreed to their survival plan, which included accepting a pay freeze,

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cuts to pensions and a no-strike guarantee. Blackmail. The workers

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narrowly rejected the proposals in a ballot. The company said it could no

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longer continue to fund the site and the business had no option but to go

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ahead with liquidation. The trade union Unite, described it as an act

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of industrial vandalism. Make no mistake, one man is holding this

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work force and country to Rand some, that is Jim Ratcliffe, the owner.

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Unite can do no more, and the ball is now the court of Jim Ratcliffe

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and the respective Governments of Westminster and Edinburgh. The

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Scottish Executive says if an agreement between the company and

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Unite isn't achievable, it will pursue options to find a potential

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buyer for the site. Just before we came on air I spoke to the First

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Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, about the stand-off. Alex Salmond do

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you accept it is now inevitable that Grangemouth is going to close? No I

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don't. The reason for that is I know how close both management and unions

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were to agreement last week, twice actually, once to an underlying

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agreement and then secondly to reignite the plant. We were within a

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hair's breath of that on Friday morning. Given that both sides were

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very close to agreement last week, both sides agreed there was, in

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their words, an outstanding further for this facility. I don't see why a

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week later the game should be up. I'm determined not to give up on

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Grangemouth. It is clearly uneconomic isn't it? No, there were

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challenges certainly in the chemical side and its competitive position.

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The petro-chemical side is losing ?10 million a month, that can't go

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on indefinitely? That depends where you put the figures. Let's have some

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common sense here. In the refinery there is no proposal to close it,

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the refinery is pretty well placed compared to other UK refineries. In

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the chemical side which has competitive pressure for particular

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reasons, the company had an investment plan to secure the future

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of that facility for the next 15-25 years. Both sides agreed that was an

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investment plan that they wanted. Unfortunately the negotiations

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brought down over other matters. Given we are a week on, given we

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were so close last week, I don't see why we can't have a renewed effort

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to find that common ground and secure a future for this facility.

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So should the workers have accepted the cuts to pay and pensions? I

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think the work force, certainly the unions were prepared to address

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that, a significant development this afternoon is new proposals have been

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made by Unite to the company. Now I hope the company is consider these,

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I spoke to both Unite and Jim Ratcliffe this afternoon, I hope

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these can be favourically considered. They do seem to me, as

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least at first sight tie dress the cost issues the company brought

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forward. Perhaps over the next few days we can get to a more positive

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place and see this crucial facility. Above all the livelihoods of

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thousands of people in Scotland protected. Would you like to see it

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sold to somebody else if there cannot be an agreement reached? We

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are going to concentrate, let's make one last effort to get that

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agreement, given the new proposals that Unite have made. It is bait

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late is it? -- it is a bit late? It might be five minutes to midnight

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but not past the witching hour as yet. The petro-chemical company has

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not been liquid dated yet, it won't -- liquidated yet, it won't be for

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several days. I will work as hard as I can as First Minister of Scotland,

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because of the facility and livelihoods at stake, let's make the

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one last effort to get the agreement that secures the future of what is a

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very, very important plant. When you spoke to the chairman, was he up for

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a new set of talks? Well he certainly did not say that he

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wouldn't consider the things coming forward. They have to come forward,

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as he put it, from the local management. The sequence of events

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that unite have made proposals to the local management. They have to

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reflect that and put it forward to the shareholders of the company who

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decide on the investment. But I hope that process can now happen because

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Grangemouth is worth it happening and the leavelihoods of these people

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are worth -- livelihoods of these people are worth it. We are prepared

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to encourage and if sillity where agreement could be -- facilitate

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where agreement could be reached. Where was he when you spoke to him

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on the phone? He was in London and I was speaking from Aberdeen. So it's

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not true, as has been alleged in the house of Lord this evening, that

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he's swanking around on yacht in the Mediterranean? No and I could say

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that Mr Rathbone was in DLON when I spoke from Aberdeen. Can I say from

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all this stuff, I'm prepared from past exchanges as you know, to

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engage in all sorts of stuff with other politicians and you know for

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debate and all the rest of it. Right now when there are thousands of folk

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who are waiting to see if they have a job and livelihood, whether people

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are in the House of Lords and Commons or Scottish Parliament, we

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should address the issue, our role right now is to try to get people to

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agree, to try to get common ground to secure the future of the

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facility. The rhetoric and inSULTs and all that nonsense should wait

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for another day. Have you heard anything about the proposal from

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Unite? I haven't as yet. We will wait and see if that comes through

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tomorrow. What I'm hearing is that if what they are saying through it

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is diametrically opposed to what they were saying only two days ago,

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which was they totally rejected our survival plan and that is what

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caused most of the Unite represent people on site to vote against it.

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So there is a possibility of, Alex Salmond there was talking about

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something five minutes to midnight. It is five minutes to midnight as

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far as you are concerned, because the negotiations are not over? The

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problem is the negotiations are over, which is why we announced

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today we have to close the site. The difficulty we have been put into is

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we made a clear statement to our employees because we couldn't talk

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to Unite, they refused to talk about on the issue, they wanted to talk

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about the treatment of the union convener. We have addressed it

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directly to the work force, and encouraged by Unite they rejected

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it, or half of them rejected it. Are you willing to reopen negotiations?

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The reality is, and I think you heard Alex Salmond say it, that in

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his discussions with Jim Ratcliffe and the shareholders, the management

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team on the site will obviously take back to the shareholders something

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if it changes significantly. I don't know whether that's the case or not

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at this stage. So you are in principle prepared to reopen

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negotiations, or you, I mean if people were willing on-site you

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would? The reality of the situation is that we have been forced by t

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rejection of the proposals we made to start a process that sees the

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site close, that is the reality, I can't say what will happen tomorrow,

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I have no idea what else is being offered. We have no idea what is on

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the table. It is clearly not over. You are not talking like man who is

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saying it is over, it is finished, it is done? The reality is we have

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had to announce today the petro-chemical site will close.

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There is a huge discussion to be had about restarting the refinery, that

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has to start to continue. Whether that impacts on the petro-chemical

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site I have no idea. As far as you are concerned the refinery can

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continue to operate? Absolutely. Fine, can you help us with the

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petro-chemical figures, this figure of your company losing ?10 million a

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month, Alex Salmond disputes that, you heard him say that there that he

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can't accept that was necessary the right figure, is it the right

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figure? The overall site is losing ?10 million a month. That is the

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whole site, both refining and petro-chemicals. Petro-chemicals is

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a big piece of that. The reality is we have had to invest so far about a

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billion pounds into the site. We have now to invest, if we want to

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continue petro-chemical, they have to a further ?300 million, that was

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put to the work force, are you willing to support us, if we are

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going to put the ?300 million is, the answer was a resounding no. To

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muck about with people's pension expectations is pretty tough? If it

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were mucking about, I would agree with you. All we have asked to do is

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for the pensions to go for a normal situation. Something most people

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would consider very generous. The current pension scheme is costing us

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65% of salary, for everyone we employ we have to add another 65% on

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top of their salary which currently is about ?55,000, add the # the 65%

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on it is costing over ?100,000 for every person on the site. Can you

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imagine anyone else in your line of work to take on the commitments? It

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is difficult to see who would do it. Everyone would face the same issue

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we have, not enough gas from the North Sea, we can't run the site

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full because of that. We have to invest in new facility to bring more

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gas in. That is a big bill, on top of that big bill you have to keep

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shelling out for the losseses on site until you have sort -- losses

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on site until you have sorted that out. That will take two or three

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years. What about workers who think they have no jobs? My message is one

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of huge and deep regret. My major deep regret is their union has not

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represented its interests, it has represented its own iterim political

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interests and advised them extremely badly.

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Thank you very much. Not since medieval philosophers debated how

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many angels can dance on the head of a pin has Westminster seen a display

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to compare with the appearance of three very experienced police

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officers spending much of the afternoon trying to explain how they

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came to describe a conversation which did not take place. In the

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end, though, they couldn't bring themselves to apologise to the then

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cabinet minister, Andrew Mitchell, but the senior officer who

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investigated whether they ought to place disciplinary proceedings still

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believes they should. The scene of wrongdoing? Or as the

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police contend nothing to see here, move along please! Just over a year

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ago the MP for Sutton Coldfield, Andrew Mitchell turned up here at

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his constituency Association for A crucial meeting. If he could

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convince three local representatives of the Police Federation that he had

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done nothing wrong, well he just might be able to save his career.

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What happened in this room around this table has already been the

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subject of an internal police investigation that concluded the

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officers had no case to answer. And a statement by the Independent

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Police Complaints Commisssion that concluded, well there were issues of

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honesty and integrity that needed to be examined. Today it was the turn

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of MPs to look at the issue and pick up the detective's magnifying glass.

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Over more than four hours we heard from three Chief Constables, the

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police officer who carried out the initial internal investigation, two

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senior figures from the independent police watchdog, and of course the

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three police officers themselves, and, well, we ended up more or less

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as baffled as we were at the start. Let's remind ourselves what the

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officers said after the meeting a year ago. I think Mr Mitchell now

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has no option but to resign. He is continuing to refuse to elaborate on

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what happened. I think his position sun tenable. That statement piled

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the pressure on Mr Mitchell and he ended up resigning. Despite the fact

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that he had an audio recording of the meeting that clearly showed that

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the officers' version of events was, well, wrong.

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I did say, you know, under my breath, but audibly, in frustration,

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"I thought you lot were supposed to BEEP help us," I did say that, for

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that I apologise. That was the assessment of the independent Police

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Complaints Commisssion, and the man who investigated on behalf of the

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police. Did you end the draft report with the words "by giving a

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misloading account of what took place at the meeting I believe the

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officers have a case to answer for misconduct and bringing discredit on

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the Police Service". Yes I did. Do you still consider the three

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officers concerned and we will hear from them later, have a case to

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answer in respect of misconduct have a case to answer. Yes I do. It took

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several minutes of close questioning to work out what apology was for and

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for whom? Is it an aa polling to Mr Mitchell or everyone in the public.

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That you didn't pause and think before you went to the press? It is

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an apology for the choreography not being properly dealt with. Not an

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apology for anything you have done. You don't think you have done

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anything wrong? At the moment no, I'm not convinced that we have done

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anything wrong. You would know now after a year, wouldn't you, after a

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year? I'm not convinced we have done nothing wrong. You have nothing to

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apologise that is your view? Yes. I I gave what I believed to be an

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accurate account of the meeting. At one point the third officer came

:17:02.:17:05.

been a truncheon's-length of an apology to Mr Mitchell before

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eventually drawing back. As part of the apology we have already given,

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it should be included in that apology, but that is an apology if

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we are going to give we should give to Mr Mitchell personally not in

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this forum. You are planning to see Mr Mitchell to give him an apology.

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If there is one due, and if there is one due with regard to... (laughter)

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Mr Hinton this is not a television game show! The MPs were clearly not

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satisfied with this. Because this is just NON not the nature of what was

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said. I just understand why even if you didn't mean it you wouldn't

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apologise to Mr Mitchell? Mr Jones? I can you say that again I'm not

:17:52.:17:58.

sure I fully understand? But all agree that perhaps it would be

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better in the future if serving police officers didn't go around

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during working hours taking part in highly political campaigns and

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calling for cabinet ministers to resign.

:18:14.:18:16.

As you would imagine our producer spent much of the day trying to get

:18:17.:18:19.

someone in a police uniform to appear tonight. Despite our best

:18:20.:18:24.

efforts, the Independent Police Complaints Commisssion, the police

:18:25.:18:29.

fed rail strikes the association -- the Police Federation, West Mercia

:18:30.:18:31.

police weren't able to find anyone to come on. We did have a yes from

:18:32.:18:35.

the Chief Constable of Warwickshire, but 25 minutes before he was due to

:18:36.:18:39.

appear we were called by his assistant to explain he had a long

:18:40.:18:43.

day and could no longer make it. Let's hope he's having a long lie

:18:44.:18:48.

down. Guess who wrote this, "when people talk about politics within

:18:49.:18:51.

the existing Westminster framework I feel a dull thud in my stomach and

:18:52.:18:58.

my eyes, involuntarily glazed like when I'm conversing and the subject

:18:59.:19:02.

changes from me and moves on to another topic." The combination of

:19:03.:19:10.

distaste for mainstream politics and vanity defines it as Russell Brand,

:19:11.:19:15.

actor, comedian and now it seems political they arist. For is there

:19:16.:19:22.

no -- theorist. He's now the guest editor of the New Statesman. He

:19:23.:19:28.

wants a revolution, he says. Who are you to edit a political magazine? I

:19:29.:19:34.

suppose like a person who has been politely asked by an attractive

:19:35.:19:38.

woman. I don't know the criteria, I don't know many people who edit

:19:39.:19:42.

political manage SDEENs, Boris, I'm a person with crazy hair, a good

:19:43.:19:48.

sense of humour, know nothing about politics. Is it true you don't vote?

:19:49.:19:52.

No I don't. How do you have authority to talk about politics? I

:19:53.:19:56.

don't get my authority from the preexisting paradigm that is narrow

:19:57.:20:00.

and only service a few people. I look elsewhere for alternatives that

:20:01.:20:06.

might be of service to humanity. Alternate means all TRNate political

:20:07.:20:10.

systems. They being? I haven't invented it yet, I had to do the

:20:11.:20:14.

magazine last week and I had a lot on my plate. This is the thing it

:20:15.:20:18.

shouldn't do, it shouldn't destroy the planet, shouldn't create massive

:20:19.:20:22.

economic disparity and ignore the needs of the people. The burp is on

:20:23.:20:30.

The burden of proof is on the people in power. How do you imagine people

:20:31.:20:36.

get power? There are hierarchical systems that get them elected. There

:20:37.:20:41.

is democratic system, you can't be arsed to vote? It is something that

:20:42.:20:45.

changes. In a democracy it works? I don't think it is working very well

:20:46.:20:49.

given that the planet is being destroyed and economic disparity of

:20:50.:20:52.

a huge degree, you are saying there is no alternative, just this system.

:20:53.:20:56.

I'm not saying that, if you can'ting arsed to vote why should we be cars

:20:57.:21:01.

today listen to your political point of view? You don't have to. I'm not

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voting out of apathy, but out of absolute indifference and weariness

:21:06.:21:10.

over the distortion and lies and political deceit of the political

:21:11.:21:14.

class going on for generations now, and reaching fever pitch where we

:21:15.:21:19.

have a disenfranchised and disillusioned despondent underclass

:21:20.:21:22.

not being represented by that system. There is tacit complicity

:21:23.:21:28.

with the system. Why not change it? I'm trying to. Start by voting? I

:21:29.:21:31.

don't think it work, people have voted already and that is what

:21:32.:21:35.

created the current paradigm. When did you last vote? Never. You have

:21:36.:21:39.

never voted? Do you think that is bad. You struck an attitude before

:21:40.:21:44.

the age of 18? I was busy being a drug addict, because I come from the

:21:45.:21:48.

social systems that are exacerbated by the system, that administers to

:21:49.:21:53.

lar corporations. You are blaming the political class for your drug

:21:54.:21:57.

problem? I'm saying I was part of a social and economic class that is

:21:58.:22:01.

underserved by the current political system and drug addiction is one of

:22:02.:22:05.

the problems it creates when you have huge underserved impoverished

:22:06.:22:09.

population, people get drug problems and don't feel that they want to

:22:10.:22:13.

engage with the current political system because they see it doesn't

:22:14.:22:16.

work for them. They see it makes no difference. They see they are not

:22:17.:22:20.

served. I say that the apathy. It don't work if they don't vote? The

:22:21.:22:26.

apathy doesn't come from us the people, it is from the politicians

:22:27.:22:29.

apathetic to our needs. They are only interested in servicing the

:22:30.:22:33.

needs of the population. The Tories taking the EU to court because they

:22:34.:22:37.

are trying to cartel bank bonuses, is that what is happening in our

:22:38.:22:41.

country. Why should I tune into that. You don't believe in

:22:42.:22:45.

democracy, you want a revolution? The planet is being destroyed,

:22:46.:22:48.

creating an underclass and exploiting poor people all over the

:22:49.:22:51.

world. The genuine problems of the people are not being addressed by

:22:52.:22:55.

the political class. All of things may be true?. They are true. I

:22:56.:22:58.

wouldn't argue with you about many of them? How come I feel so cross

:22:59.:23:02.

with you, it can't be because of the beard, it is gorgeous, if the Daily

:23:03.:23:07.

Mail don't want it, I do, I'm begins them, grow it longer and tangle it

:23:08.:23:13.

into our armpit air. You are a very trivial man? I'm trivial, a minute

:23:14.:23:18.

ago I want a revolution and I'm trivial, I'm bouncing all over the

:23:19.:23:22.

place. Many people want a revolution, I'm asking what it will

:23:23.:23:26.

be like? What it won't be like is a huge disparity between rich and

:23:27.:23:30.

poor, where 300 Americans have the same amount of wealth as the 85

:23:31.:23:35.

million poorest Americans. Where there is an exploited and

:23:36.:23:41.

underserved underclass that being continually ignored, while welfare

:23:42.:23:44.

is slashed while Cameron and George Osborne go to court to defend the

:23:45.:23:47.

rights of bankers to continue receiving their bonuses, that is all

:23:48.:23:52.

I'm saying. What is the scheme, you talk vaguely about revolution, what

:23:53.:23:57.

is it? I think a socialist equaltarian system en massive

:23:58.:24:04.

redistribution of wealth, and massive -- I think the very concept

:24:05.:24:08.

of profit should be hugely reduced, David Cameron says profit isn't a

:24:09.:24:13.

dirty word, I say profit is a filthy word, wherever there is profit there

:24:14.:24:16.

is deficit. This system currently doesn't address these ideas. Why

:24:17.:24:20.

would anyone vote for it. Why would anyone be interested in it. Who

:24:21.:24:24.

would heavy the taxes? There needs to be a centralised administrative

:24:25.:24:29.

system. There needs to be a Government? Maybe call them

:24:30.:24:32.

something else, call them the admin BODs so they don't get ahead of

:24:33.:24:35.

themselves. How would they be chosen? Don't ask me to sit with you

:24:36.:24:41.

in an interview in a hotel room and devise a global utopian system. You

:24:42.:24:46.

are calling for revolution? Absolutely, I'm calling for change

:24:47.:24:50.

and genuine alternatives, when there is one and option vote for that.

:24:51.:24:55.

Until then, don't bother, why pretend and be complicit in this

:24:56.:25:01.

ridiculous illusion. By the time somebody Kims along you might think

:25:02.:25:06.

worth voting for it might be too late? The time is now, the movement

:25:07.:25:11.

is occurring, we are at a time where communication is instainous, and

:25:12.:25:16.

there are communities all over the world. Occupy introduced to the

:25:17.:25:21.

popular public lexicon the idea of the 99% against the 1%. People for

:25:22.:25:25.

the first time in generation are aware of massive corporate and

:25:26.:25:30.

economic exploitation, these are not nonsense and they are not being

:25:31.:25:34.

addressed. Nobody is doing anything about tax havens or their political

:25:35.:25:37.

affiliations and financial affiliations of the Conservative

:25:38.:25:39.

Party. So until people start addressing things that are actually

:25:40.:25:43.

real, why wouldn't I be factitious, why would I take it seriously and

:25:44.:25:48.

encourage a constituency of young people indifferent to vote. Why

:25:49.:25:52.

wouldn't woo we. Aren't you more bored than anyone, you have been

:25:53.:25:55.

talking to them year after year, listening to their lies and

:25:56.:25:58.

nonsense, this one getting in, that one. The problem continues. Why are

:25:59.:26:02.

we going to continue to contribute to this facade. I'm surprised you

:26:03.:26:07.

can be factitious when you are that angry about it? I am angry, for me

:26:08.:26:12.

it is real. For me it is not just some peripheral thing that you turn

:26:13.:26:16.

up to the church fete from, this is what I come from and what I care

:26:17.:26:20.

about. Do you see any hope? Yeah, totally, there will be a revolution,

:26:21.:26:24.

it is totally going to happen. I ain't got a flicker of doubt. This

:26:25.:26:29.

is the end. This is time to wake up. I remember I see you in that

:26:30.:26:33.

programme, where you look at your ancestor, you saw your grandmother

:26:34.:26:39.

had to brass herself or got locked over by the aChris crates that ran

:26:40.:26:45.

the house, that was unfair and you cried, because it is a century ago.

:26:46.:26:49.

I have been talking to a woman today being treated like that. If we can

:26:50.:26:54.

engage that feeling, instead of some moment of sentimentality set out on

:26:55.:26:59.

the TV for people to pour over emotional porn, if we can engage

:27:00.:27:03.

that feeling and change things. Why wouldn't we, why is that niave, why

:27:04.:27:07.

is that not my right because I'm an actor. I have taken the right, I

:27:08.:27:10.

don't need the right from you or anybody, I'm taking it. Russell

:27:11.:27:15.

Brand. It has been the despairing LAment of one parent after another

:27:16.:27:19.

for years, "can't you get off that screen and get some fresh air for a

:27:20.:27:24.

change"? They are showing their age and day after day they are reminded

:27:25.:27:29.

of how aling, DHOUL, how muddy, had you damp, how remote the natural

:27:30.:27:34.

world is by comparison with the easily accessible delights of cyber

:27:35.:27:38.

reality. A film maker called Bondarenko was so depressed by what

:27:39.:27:44.

seems to be becoming -- David Bond, was to depressed about this that he

:27:45.:27:48.

did what film makers do and made a film about it. I'm David Bond, I'm a

:27:49.:28:09.

father, I'm the marketing director of nature. This is Ivy, she's five,

:28:10.:28:14.

she loves the television. How much do you love the television? One

:28:15.:28:17.

hundred billion, I love sitting in front of it all day long. Why? It is

:28:18.:28:24.

so relaxing. Like all parents, I want my children to be happy. As a

:28:25.:28:29.

child I was happiest playing outdoors. When I got back from

:28:30.:28:34.

school I would throw down my books and go straight out to play. My

:28:35.:28:41.

children don't do that. Across the western world children spend less

:28:42.:28:46.

and less time outdoors. The generational shift to an indoor

:28:47.:28:49.

existence has been strongly linked to a sharp decline in children's

:28:50.:28:55.

well being. Cases of childhood obesity, depression and behavioral

:28:56.:29:03.

difficulty are at a record high. I can't persuade my children to go

:29:04.:29:09.

outside. Modern marketing is a mighty persuader. I want to use it

:29:10.:29:14.

to sell the ultimate free wonder product. The outdoors. I'm going to

:29:15.:29:21.

attach a camera to Ivy to see how things have changed. This is how she

:29:22.:29:27.

spends her time. 32% in school, 15% watching TV, 15% playing indoors,

:29:28.:29:34.

12% on the computer, 10% eating, 5% in the car, 4% in the bathroom, and

:29:35.:29:38.

4% playing out doors. Is this a problem? There is no hard

:29:39.:29:45.

evidence that technology is bad for children. But it definitely

:29:46.:29:50.

displaces nature from their lives. As the marketing director of nature,

:29:51.:29:57.

new technology is my competitor. Can children escape the screens. The

:29:58.:30:02.

first step is to find out what my target audience currently thinks

:30:03.:30:13.

about my product. I have got nature in my box here. What do you think of

:30:14.:30:21.

when you think of nature? Dull, boring. I like it when it is sunny,

:30:22.:30:28.

but I just like staying at home. The reason I don't really go out is

:30:29.:30:33.

because I live on Plumstead common and a lot of people have their dogs

:30:34.:30:36.

there and people get mauled to death. Yeah, that's interesting. The

:30:37.:30:41.

reason a lot of people I know and myself don't go to the woods and

:30:42.:30:44.

nature, you don't want to mess up your clothes that you are wearing.

:30:45.:30:48.

And the clothes I want to get messy I wouldn't want to wear outside in

:30:49.:30:56.

public. Look at your model, outdoors doesn't look like that, it looks

:30:57.:30:59.

completely different. If it looked like that I would want to go

:31:00.:31:04.

outside, but it really doesn't. Oh no. These girls hate my product.

:31:05.:31:14.

I will show you where we play. We play up in this square. There is the

:31:15.:31:20.

sign that pays "no ball games" but we don't listen. Who put up the

:31:21.:31:24.

sign? The housing office, that owns all the houses. People moan at us

:31:25.:31:29.

for playing ball games but we don't listen so. I am GLAED to hear it.

:31:30.:31:35.

What What would happen if they caught you playing ball games? I

:31:36.:31:39.

think we will just get an ASBO. You get an ASBO? Yeah. This is the green

:31:40.:31:45.

grass where I take my dogs and I just let them do what they want.

:31:46.:31:49.

This little bit of green here? Because it is quite a small I can't

:31:50.:31:52.

remember, there is a lot of dog mess in this little area? But East End

:31:53.:31:57.

homes do come and trim it and just try to grow the patches that have

:31:58.:32:01.

not come up and all that. It is not a very big space is it? My dog comes

:32:02.:32:12.

on here a lot, she likes it. Are these children really missing

:32:13.:32:17.

out? What's the scientific evidence for the benefits of nature? Never in

:32:18.:32:24.

human history have we spent so little time in physical contact with

:32:25.:32:29.

animals and plants. YUFR University students with natural views score

:32:30.:32:34.

better on tests. Workers who see trees and flowers are less stressed

:32:35.:32:38.

and report fewer illnesses. And that's just a view of nature. If you

:32:39.:32:45.

actually go into it, the results are amazing. Being among plants produce

:32:46.:32:50.

lower concentrations of stress HOER moans, lower blood pressure and

:32:51.:32:53.

boosts the immune system. The more nature we get during childhood the

:32:54.:33:00.

more we want as adults. Unless children really notice nature around

:33:01.:33:07.

them, they will never care about it. I worry that children spent more and

:33:08.:33:13.

more time staring down at screens. If we fail to market nature to them,

:33:14.:33:17.

they are bound to choose the alternatives. The competitors may

:33:18.:33:22.

have got the budget, but I think we have got the best product.

:33:23.:33:35.

Well David Bond joins us now as does the journalist, and Sorayah July,

:33:36.:33:40.

with a four-year-old child, also with us is Eve King doing what

:33:41.:33:45.

11-year-olds are actually doing things now.

:33:46.:33:51.

Sir Tom Arnold you are -- David you are instinctively an urban person

:33:52.:33:54.

what is wrong with the countryside? It is lovely, but what is wrong is

:33:55.:33:59.

the notion you will be ill if you don't go there. The whole thing is

:34:00.:34:03.

predicated on the idea that there is something called Nature Deficit

:34:04.:34:09.

Disorder, in which you make yourself ill if you are not taken back to

:34:10.:34:13.

your natural state which is thought to be evolutionary us hunting

:34:14.:34:18.

antelopes across the vale and eating their livers. The closer you get

:34:19.:34:22.

back to that idea the closer you are to your real self. It is a romantic

:34:23.:34:27.

idea without evidence behind it. There is plenty of evidence and it

:34:28.:34:30.

is growing all the time. The evidence is children need nature,

:34:31.:34:34.

they develop better, it is good for their brains, it is fun for them.

:34:35.:34:38.

The evidence is pretty clear that without it they tend to spend their

:34:39.:34:42.

time inside on screens, if they are watching screens a lot then obesity

:34:43.:34:46.

levels are higher. There is a lot of evidence that attention deficit and

:34:47.:34:49.

depression in children is raised significantly if they spend too long

:34:50.:34:54.

indoors. There are links between the indoors and problems, there is a

:34:55.:34:57.

clear evidence that the indoors is pushing nature away. Maybe not a

:34:58.:35:01.

precise causal link but it is pretty clear it is there. It is clear the

:35:02.:35:05.

more time you spend indoors the less cases of RIKTs there are -- rickets

:35:06.:35:11.

there are for example? That may be the case, what we wanted to show

:35:12.:35:15.

was, go on. You are just saying that life has changed, we live in

:35:16.:35:19.

different circumstances? We do. And those circumstances are harming

:35:20.:35:24.

children. It is pretty clear without time and nature, children are less

:35:25.:35:30.

well off. And that's a serious problem. You have a how old is your

:35:31.:35:35.

daughter? She's four. And as lovely as it would be to be able to get out

:35:36.:35:39.

in nature, and see the lovely birds in the trees, thele reality -- the

:35:40.:35:47.

reality is we don't live near somewhere. When we can get out we

:35:48.:35:51.

do, but it has to be day out that is planned and a lot of thought put

:35:52.:35:55.

into it. Do you feel deprived because you are not exposed to

:35:56.:35:59.

nature? It is not something I really put much thought in to. Do you think

:36:00.:36:02.

your daughter is worse off because she is less exposed to nature? She

:36:03.:36:06.

has everything she needs at home. She is not sitting at home in front

:36:07.:36:09.

of the television, she is doing things at home, we do get out of the

:36:10.:36:13.

house, just not necessarily running through fields. It does make a

:36:14.:36:18.

certain amount of instinctive sense? If what David is saying is parks are

:36:19.:36:22.

nice, we didn't need a whole film to tell us that, we have a great urban

:36:23.:36:25.

movement for parks. It was interesting seeing the little boy.

:36:26.:36:29.

His circumstances in there were pretty much exactly the same as my

:36:30.:36:34.

father's were in the East End in the 1920s and 30s, that hasn't changed

:36:35.:36:38.

much. So if the proposition is let as give people a range of possible

:36:39.:36:42.

opportunities to enjoy different things, I'm in favour of it. What I

:36:43.:36:46.

can't stand is the notion that some how we are deficient parents. At one

:36:47.:36:50.

point in the trail of the film David says his children's generation will

:36:51.:36:53.

be the first generation to die earlier than their parents. They are

:36:54.:36:57.

not David, that is completely nonsense. That will not happen.

:36:58.:37:00.

Unfortunately I won't be around to be able to bet on it with you. But

:37:01.:37:04.

if I were I would take a substantial bet. There is no evidence of that. I

:37:05.:37:09.

have seen actual assessments suggesting that may well be the

:37:10.:37:13.

case, it is not necessarily affected that they are doing with what Eve is

:37:14.:37:16.

doing there and playing on a screen. She looks a healthy child? She

:37:17.:37:20.

clearly is, but probably has a good balance of what she is doing. What

:37:21.:37:23.

we are trying to say is there ought to be some sort of balance between

:37:24.:37:28.

screen time and wild time. If you can change a bit of the time you

:37:29.:37:31.

spend on screens and switch it out for a little bit more wild time, it

:37:32.:37:35.

is likely to do you good and make you healthier. This idea that some

:37:36.:37:41.

how the urban child is at a disadvantage, that doesn't seem to

:37:42.:37:44.

be the case, some of the kids we met making the film, some of the best

:37:45.:37:48.

kids connected to nature were urban children. The RSPV report suggests

:37:49.:37:55.

that some rural children are less connected, they are faredied in cars

:37:56.:37:59.

and social media all the time because they can't connect. Do you

:38:00.:38:04.

think this is a bit boring? Sometimes. This conversation, this

:38:05.:38:08.

issue, do you think it is boring? I think you meant the iPad. Sometimes

:38:09.:38:12.

I get bored of the iPad eventually. Do you? ? Do you go outside then?

:38:13.:38:20.

Yes. There we are. Can I ask do you have a guarden? Yeah. That is

:38:21.:38:24.

another issue we don't have the garden and don't have the

:38:25.:38:26.

opportunity to go out and see the worms and bugs and things like that.

:38:27.:38:30.

We go to the park and when we do it is the playground that the time is

:38:31.:38:34.

spent in not the grass and trees. So the urban child doesn't get as much

:38:35.:38:40.

opportunity to get out. Also we are being sold something here, let's

:38:41.:38:43.

face it. There is a complete conflation between outdoors, nature,

:38:44.:38:46.

the two things are not the same and then the wild. There is nothing wild

:38:47.:38:52.

about what you are suggesting. Urban kids see squirrels all the time, in

:38:53.:38:56.

a sense that they are wild, but we are not in the wilderness and not

:38:57.:39:00.

wild in that way. If what you mean is that a bit of greenery cheers you

:39:01.:39:04.

up a bit, I completely understand that. But in so far as the

:39:05.:39:09.

proposition is a kind of guilt proposition on parents. In your film

:39:10.:39:15.

at one stage you go past the Apple store, shouting at people on a

:39:16.:39:21.

loud-hailer saying stop buying your kids iPads and take them outdoors.

:39:22.:39:26.

We could really do without that hectoring. I had run out of money

:39:27.:39:32.

for campaign so I moved to guerrilla tactic, including. There is a huge

:39:33.:39:42.

amount of natural symbols encouraging us to trust things, and

:39:43.:39:47.

very little is done to sell us nature. Is it wrong that apple have

:39:48.:39:52.

an apple? He very much appreciates that we are sitting on the wooden

:39:53.:39:56.

chair, hand crafted earlier this week by the editor of news night. He

:39:57.:40:00.

has to have some main talent, obviously. Do you feel that there is

:40:01.:40:07.

anything real about this issue? You feel obviously the absence of the

:40:08.:40:11.

opportunity is this a real issue? You are a student teacher? I am a

:40:12.:40:16.

student teacher, I believe there is some element of truth in it. If you

:40:17.:40:22.

do, sorry, if you do spend your whole day in the house you start to

:40:23.:40:26.

feel depressed, it is nice to get out to the countryside, you feel

:40:27.:40:30.

better. I don't think, as David said, it is going to make us

:40:31.:40:34.

deficient if we don't get out into the wild every single day. It is

:40:35.:40:38.

nice to get out sometimes. I don't know if it is unwealthy to not do it

:40:39.:40:43.

all the time. Do you think this campaign will have any effect at

:40:44.:40:47.

all? There is about 300 organisations who joined up to

:40:48.:40:50.

encourage children to get out doors more. Including the National Health

:40:51.:40:54.

Service and various mental health charities. All of whom see benefits

:40:55.:40:59.

for various reasons, health benefits, mental health benefits.

:41:00.:41:04.

Lots of schools now have got forests systems going on. That seems to

:41:05.:41:07.

really encourage children to learn in a more effective way. Why don't

:41:08.:41:12.

we consentrate on that, these things like lots of other things we do Co

:41:13.:41:16.

Do, music and so on are fun and good things to do, why couch it in terms

:41:17.:41:21.

of spurious statistics about people's mental health and strange

:41:22.:41:25.

disorders we created, especially for the moment that create a sense of

:41:26.:41:31.

guilt amongst people who are quite often doing their best and don't

:41:32.:41:34.

really relate. I would query loot of the things that you were -- query

:41:35.:41:38.

quite a lot of things you were saying about the evidence.

:41:39.:41:41.

Briefly respond to that? The evidence is clear, I really strongly

:41:42.:41:50.

disagree. Have you won yet? No, I wasn't playing a winning game!

:41:51.:41:55.

Thanks any way. As we all know, because the

:41:56.:41:58.

newspapers tell us every day, alcohol will kill you, as will salt,

:41:59.:42:03.

coffee, red meat, buns and more or less anything or possibly they can

:42:04.:42:06.

all be good for you in the right doses. Just about everything gives

:42:07.:42:11.

you cancer or heart attack, if one could only live without eating and

:42:12.:42:15.

drinking at all, how wonderful it would be, possibly without reading

:42:16.:42:20.

at all. We asked Michael Mosley, one of the few qualified doctors in this

:42:21.:42:28.

tatty trade to give us a guide. There is a lot of confusion about

:42:29.:42:32.

which foods are good for you and which are bad for you. Part of the

:42:33.:42:36.

reason for that is there is a lot of studies that are really quite

:42:37.:42:41.

flawed. A decent study is one called a Prospective Cohort Studio. You

:42:42.:42:45.

take a group of people who don't have a disease, you test them and

:42:46.:42:49.

follow them for a long period of time and you see what happens. When

:42:50.:42:53.

you do that sort of a study then you get some big surprises.

:42:54.:43:01.

Now for 40 years we have been told that saturated fats like butter are

:43:02.:43:06.

bad for us, when they did a prospective cohort study they found

:43:07.:43:09.

there is very little evidence that saturated fats lead to heart

:43:10.:43:13.

disease. Margarine on the other hand, which

:43:14.:43:18.

starts out as a liquid sunflower oil and has to be turned into a solid,

:43:19.:43:23.

that processing leads to something called transfats, it turns out that

:43:24.:43:28.

they are the villain. So given a choice between butter and margarine,

:43:29.:43:37.

I personally opt for butter. I like the taste of smoothies, and that's

:43:38.:43:42.

because they are incredibly sweet. In a survey done of 52 commercial

:43:43.:43:47.

smoothies they discovered that 41 of them had more calories and more

:43:48.:43:52.

sugar in them than you would find in a Coca-Cola. The other problem with

:43:53.:43:55.

smoothies is once you take the fruit, you remove the peel and fibre

:43:56.:44:01.

by mashing it up, well you have got rid of most the benefits. You would

:44:02.:44:10.

be far better off eating fruit. Without a doubt this has been one of

:44:11.:44:14.

the Government's most successful campaigns. The problem is fruit and

:44:15.:44:19.

vegtables good food, yes, but lots of other things didn't get included

:44:20.:44:24.

in the five-a-day. For example when you get a processed food where it

:44:25.:44:30.

says one of five-a-day. Yet that contains huge amount of sugar and

:44:31.:44:37.

salt. There have been conflicting studies

:44:38.:44:40.

but I think the evidence is quite strong that if you reduce the amount

:44:41.:44:44.

of salt in your diet that will reduce blood pressure and therefore

:44:45.:44:48.

your risk of having a stroke. The problem is just getting rid of the

:44:49.:44:52.

salt dispenser is not going to be enough. Because there is lots of

:44:53.:44:56.

added salt all around. Even things that don't taste salty like bread

:44:57.:45:01.

and muffins. There is, however, one piece of good news.

:45:02.:45:09.

Coffee has something of a bad boy image, because down the years it has

:45:10.:45:14.

been blamed from everything from heart disease to cancer. When they

:45:15.:45:19.

did a prospective cohort study, they found that coffee seems to be good

:45:20.:45:23.

for you in all sorts of ways, not least of cutting your risk of

:45:24.:45:29.

suicide. It seems something like caffeine acts as an antidepressant

:45:30.:45:34.

and boosts neurotransmitters in your brain that give you a "feel-good

:45:35.:45:43.

factor". That was rather useful, Dr Michael Mosley, back tomorrow night

:45:44.:45:47.

on BBC Two in his series on health matters, , Trust Me I'm A Doctor.

:45:48.:45:56.

Now the That's all from us tonight, before

:45:57.:46:33.

we go we were treated today to the results of David Cameron's latest

:46:34.:46:36.

happiness survey, it reveals that Londoners, surprise, surprise, are

:46:37.:46:40.

the most miserable and anxious people in the country. One of our

:46:41.:46:45.

producers wondered if Beano, the Newsnight clown, might be able to

:46:46.:46:47.

help? The mobile phone is more interesting

:46:48.:47:11.

than me. Londoners must be happy.

:47:12.:47:26.

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