Newsnight reveals an exclusive story - tune in for the details. Plus Iran's secret war in Syria, storm St Jude and Rufus Wainright on Lou Reed. With Jeremy Paxman.
Browse content similar to 28/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Good evening. The woman sacked after the Baby P
case will get a small fortune in a secret payout deal, Newsnight can
reveal. Go The head of child protection services at Harringay
Council will get a ?600,000 legal payout, some of it from Central
Government simply because the proper hoops weren't jumped through before
Ed Balls announced her sacking. A defender of Sharon Shoesmith and
one of her Parliamentary critics are here to count the cost.
These pictures show Syrian rebels ambushing and killing what they
assumed were government forces. It turned out their opponents were
Iranian Revolutionary Guards. What were they doing there?
St Jude brings four fatalities and knocks over trees, but in the end
doesn't cause the chaos that was predicted. Did we over react?
And we remember Lou Reed in all his charm. I don't like journalists. I
despise them. Mainly the English, the pigs.
His friend Rufus Wainright explains his unique contribution to music and
pop culture. You will remember the killing of
Peter Connelly - Baby P as he was called. He died after being injured
for months while theoretically under the supervision of Haringey social
services in London. There was great public disquiet, and in the furore
afterwards, the head of Children's Services, Sharon Shoesmith, was
sacked. The Appeal Court later ruled that she had been unfairly
dismissed. Now Newsnight can reveal that Ms Shoesmith, who has not
worked since losing her job, is to be paid hundreds of thousands of
pounds of public money in compensation. Allegra Stratton has
the story. Sharon Shoesmith always thought it was wrong that she learnt
of her sacking from the television. To ensure venerable children in the
borough are properly protected. I have directed Haringey Council
totted to appoint Mr John Cofflin as Director of Children's services.
In 2011 the Court of Appeal agreed with Shoesmith. It ruled that her
removal from office by the then Children's Secretary, Ed Balls, and
choux myth's employers, Haringey Council had been unfair. Now, two
years on, she is to get compensation. Newsnight understands
that Sharon Shoesmith has settled for one source says is over
?600,000. Haringey Council will meet the lion's shares of this, but the
Department for Education will dump up some of it, but the whole deal is
controversial. Haringey Council has also imposed a confidentiality
clause on the deal. It means the exact sum can't be disclosed. When
contacted by Newsnight, one Government source said the Secretary
of State for education, Michael Gove, was furious at the
confidentiality clause. He is said to think it is indefensible. Baby
Peter Connolly died despite being seen 60 times by social services,
police and health services. The child's body had 50 injuries
including a broken back and broken ribs inflicted by his mother.
After the trial, an Ofsted report found failings in Sarn Shoesmith's
-- Sharon choux Smith's department. Ed Balls had not given Shoesmith a
chance to respond to the report and contravened procedure. My sorrow at
the death of Peter Connolly while I was director is something which will
stay with me for the rest of my life. But as the judges said, making
a public sacrifice of an individual would not prevent further tragedies.
Since then, she has unable to find work and has had to claim benefits.
When Shoesmith won her case in 2011 Ed Balls maintained that even had he
given her a chance to respond, he would have made the same decision.
He is joined by politicians on all sides of the House who believe
ministers must have the right to act quickly and that public servants
should be held accountable. The current Government looks like it
will pay for Shoesmith's sacking by televised press conference, but on
this occasion, you are unlikely to hear them crow about it.
With us now is Ray Jones, Professor of Social Work who is writing a book
on the Baby Peter case; and Charlotte Leslie, Conservative MP
and member of the education select committee which grilled Sharon
Shoesmith in 2010. Do you understand how angry many members of the public
will be at this news? I understand that people should be angry about
what happened to Peter Connolly. He had a terrible life and those people
who worked really hard to protect were not successful in doing that. I
understand the anger... But do you understand... I understand the DJ
that's been done to our child protection system as a consequence
of that anger. Do you understand how angry they
will be at the fact that hundreds of thousands of pounds of public money
are being given to Sharon Shoesmith? I understand the anger, but as I
said, my real concern is what is happening to the child protection
system and we have made it harder to protect children because of the
blame culture that he we cre aid and the type of vigilante action.
What do you make of this settlement? It is simple. You have got to ask
what responsibility means? When she was in her position, Sharon
Shoesmith got a very large salary. Showing leadership means showing
when something goes wrong, you take responsibility and make yourself
accountable. The thing there most people are angry is that
whistle-blowers also lose their jobs, but a lady like Sharon
Shoesmith walks away with a big pay-off and has not taken the
personal option to take personal responsibility.
But this is a who who she thinks will never work again? If she wants
to perhaps make her chances of getting a job higher, it would be to
demonstrate she understands what personal accountability and
responsibility is about and say I was carrying the can. I was head of
this department and I take responsibility. That would be the
kind of person I would be more likely to employ than someone who
says, "It was nothing to do with me. I am sorry about what happened. But
it was nothing to do with me." We have seen this not only in care, but
throughout the NHS as well. It seems endemic.
It is the size of this payment. I mean ?600,000. The biggest pay-off
last year for unfair dismissal was 236 thou. The average is about
?10,000. And Rebekah Brooks got ?10 million.
She was working for News International? When something goes
wrong, there is a tragedy, we have 50 to 70 children in England who die
because of abuse by their parents. We protect a large number of
children very well, but it is getting difficult to get people to
work in this job of protecting children, police officers,
paediatricians and social workers because when something terrible
happens, we get the blame we are hearing about today and who wants to
put themselves in that position of doing a really hard job knowing when
something terrible happens, they are out to get you.
That's a fair point, isn't it? A blame culture is not the same as a
culture where people take accountability and responsibility.
There are whistle-blowers who are trying to raise the alarm. Who are
trying to do things the right way. Kim Holt is an example. It is often
the whistle-blower. The whistle-blowers are trying to raise
the fact that there are concerns. Now that's not a culture of blame.
Someone is saying the system is covering th stuff. If someone is at
the top of an organisation covering stuff up and not performing properly
and lives put at risk, that's simple accountability.
Do you think it is as high as ?600,000? I have no idea. It is not
a figure I heard before. I don't know whether it is true or not. The
conversation we're having will do nothing to help us to protect
children better in the future. It will make it harder for people to
come into this business because they know as I say saying now, when
something goes wrong, we might talk about accountability, but it feels
like blame and that's my concern. Who wants to do a really difficult
job when you know that when it gets really hard, you will be in the
firing line? There is something of a lynch mob that comes into play at
times like this? The way to protect patients in NHS and children is a
system whereby people feel comfortable in coming forward and
saying something is not right. I am not happy about the way the system
is, working. I don't think that not whoeding people -- holding people
accountable at top is. To say yes, I was leading a dysfunctional
organisation. I myself voluntarily will do what most people would think
to be the descent thing and then you don't get this lynch mob. People are
angry because you have got someone who was earning a lot of money who
is found to be at the top of an organisation that needed reform, was
not doing that are her salary and says, "It is not my fault." The
organisation was found to be dysfunctional after all the media
attention was given and there was the hun cry. This organisation was
found by Ofsted to be doing well. It was rated as good and Sharon
Shoesmith's leadership was seen as positive. It changed quickly when
there was a petition run by The Sun seeking sackings. We had a different
picture about Haringey about that. I think there is an interesting point
here. Often our inspectorate are not doing the right job either and
people put ticking boxes before what is going on. So yes, inspectorates
need to get better, but people at the top need to take responsibility
for the organisations they head up. Thank you very much.
Coming up: The legacy of Lou Reed. Inspectors
supposed to be checking the Syrian government's stocks of chemical
weapons have been unable to get to two of the sites they want to visit,
it emerged today. Too dangerous, apparently. The war, meanwhile
continues its barbarous way with Government forces said to have
retaken a Christian town north of Damascus, part of which had fallen
to the rebels a week ago. The United Nations representative supposed to
prepare the way for peace talks reached the Syrian capital today.
Lyse Doucet is there. So what can you tell us?
Well, it is good news that he is back in the Syrian capital. He
hasn't been here since December and that's a long time when you are
trying to bring peace and an end to a war which changes shape every
month, but when I interviewed him in January, he diplomatically said that
40 years is a little bit too long as he put it for one family, the Assad
family to be in power. He hasn't been back to Damascus since then.
The fact that he is here, indicates that President Assad maybe willing
to give him a hearing or a message. The problem is few in the opposition
want anything to do with President Assad and even though there is a lot
of talk about a conference that will take place next month, 23rd
November, most of the powerful renegades said it would be an act of
treason. The main opposition groups haven't made up their minds and
President Assad says he will run for the elections next year. You can't
want peace more than the parties for the conflict want it.
Is there any sign of who is inwithing the war? -- winning the
war? No one is winning and no one is losing and no one has been able to
inflict the fatal blow to turn the tide. It is very difficult to say
who controls what percentage of the dertry, but the most reliable
figures I have seen from good sources is president Assad's forces
have lost 60% of Syria, but on the 40% they control, they control most
of the population and they control one of the main prizes in this war
and that's this capital Damascus. Since I was here a few months ago,
there are more checkpoints in the city, but it is relatively quiet as
was the last visit than it was say six months ago. The Government feels
very much in control in what is called the bubble of Damascus. A
different picture in the suburbs which are burning and at least one
suburb people are starving. They haven under siege. Someone told me
today, you can't get a peace of bread into some of those
neighbourhoods and the UN agencies have been calling for an end to the
siege, but the Government very much feels it has the upper hand and part
of the confidence comes from the chemical weapons deal which means it
averted a US military style strike and it has powerful friends
including Iran and Russia which are arming Assad and standing by him.
Thank you very much. From the outside it seems that most
of the world is lined up against President Assad, the regime makes
capital out of the fact. Yet we have evidence that foreign forces are in
Syria fighting alongside president Assad's men. Yalda Hakim reports. A
year ago the rebels in Syria seemed to have the upper hand.
But something has changed. Syrian Government forces are being
bolstered by Iran. If there is one country that is interfering in
Syria, it is Iran. When this secret footage shot by an Iranian fell into
rebel hands, the truth about the ayatollah's secret war in Syria was
revealed for the first time. A Government air base near Damascus in
Syria. S boarding the helicopter flight is this man, a 30-year-old
film-maker from Iran. It is his second trip to Syria and he is on a
sensitive assignment. He is making a film on behalf of Iran's elite
Revolutionary Guards. In September a group of Syrian rebels contacted the
international media saying they captured a video camera after a
battle. They said it contained footage which proved their long
stated allegation that Iranian forces were on the ground in Syria
and supporting the Assad regime. Raeds The captured footage came from
a camera. It starts in some proregime military facility in
Aleppo. The signs in Arabic warn people not to take any photographs
on their mobile phones. But such restrictions do not seem to apply to
the cameraman. The soldiers are Iranians. As are the troops and the
cleric in the prayer hall and this is a communications room. A very
sensitive location. The radio operator is Iranian too. He tries to
engage him in conversation, but the man seems uncomfortable being
filmed. This is the first time all the material shot by Iranian
film-maker has been pieced together. It is likely that it was never
intended for public broadcast, but was some internal Iranian
Revolutionary Guards project because when you watch the footage, it
becomes obvious that despite their repeated denials, Iran is secretly
playing a critical role in helping turn the tide of the war back in
favour of the Assad regime. It is not surprising to me in Syria Iran
has given training both to the regular Syrian armed forces and to
paramilitary groups and the paramilitary groups may out last the
Assad regime. It is one way that Iran keeps its options open even if
Assad falls, Iran will have a force that's committed to it.
Back on the ground in Syria. The man sitting on the right-hand side is
the main character in the film. Relaxed and humorous, he
nevertheless has a very ideological view of the Syrian conflict and
Iran's role in it. The footage shows the Iranians
training and organisationing a new grouping known as the national
defence force. The national defence force is a network of pro-Assad
militias. They are loyalists all of whom fear the consequences of a
Sunni Muslim rebel victory. But it seems the NDF are not just being
trained on the ground in Syria itself.
But the Revolutionary Guards aren't just providing training. According
to sources, their role is a very hands on one.
The sun rises over Aleppo. But this will not be a peaceful day.
Reporting are coming in that a force of rebel fighters is moving in on a
nearby regime stronghold known as the poultry farm near a pla called
Talazan. The unit gets reinforcements from
the local NDF that Englishia they are training.
There is no considerate driving style now. This is a military
emergency. The two truck loads of fighters head to the poultry farm
base as fast as they can. There are about 40 fighters gathered in this
base including at least one other squad of Iranian military advisors.
All these men know an attack is coming. The squad is led out of the
poultry farm base on a mission to secure the reasoned flank of the --
right-hand flank of the battlefield. At first glance, this Iranian led
group looks well equipped for a fight. Then there is movement on the
horizon. What the Iranians can't see is there are more than three rebels.
What you are seeing now is footage filmed by the rebel's own cameraman
as their fighters advance towards the combat zone. They outnumber the
squad and have heavier weapons including a tank. The Iranians are
heading into an ambush. With bullets supplies slicing
through the corn field and mortar rounds, the group is pinned down.
The others try to retreat. But it is too late. These are the last images
filmed. Two days later, Revolutionary Guards
commander is buried with military honours in Iran. It is final
confirmation of his important role in the Revolutionary Guards.
And this is one of the members from the Syrian war. He never made it
home to his wife, or three-year-old daughter. Even after all this, the
Revolutionary Guards continue to deny their activities in Syria.
The story shines a light on to Iran's covert war in Syria, but the
Iranians are not the only foreigners interfering in the Syrian conflict.
With weapons and fighters now pouring in on both sides, there is a
very real danger that this crisis will spin further out of control.
You can see a full half an hour version of that report on Our World
on the BBC News Channel on Saturday and Sunday evening at 9.30pm.
He was the elusive figure rarely photographed behind David Cameron's
canny media strategy. She was the flame haired executive to exchanged
text message with her friend and neighbour, Cameron. That was how the
Associated Press ne agency explained two of the people in the dock at the
Old Bailey today. Eight people are on trial on charges arising out of
the phone hacking affair. Steve Hewlett has dainty feet. How big a
deal is this case? It is bill. Eight defendants after a two year police
inquiry. Charging relating to phone hacking, corrupt payments to public
officials and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice which relates
to allegations that boxes of documents were removed from News
International. Not all eight are charged with all of them, but all
eight are denying the it charges against them, but by way of scale,
the prosecution opening is due to start tomorrow afternoon and last
for two days. It is reckoned the prosecution case in total could last
until Christmas. And the case overall is scheduled to last until
next Easter. Until Easter? It is big. Yes,
Easter. Some big institutions involved? Yes, when you look at it.
This is the first time the public will get to hear in detail what it
is alleged occurred and there is big players and big institutions with
skin in this game. You might say. So you have got the press. You are busy
fighting the post Leveson settlement, the atmospherics that
are going to come out of it and you have got the Metropolitan Police
looking on anxiously. This is a case that they declined to investigate
until forced to it. You have got the political class, David Cameron, made
the big speech after the Milly Dowler revelations which led to the
News of the World being closed who said, "We the political class had
turned a blind eye." And there is Rupert Murdoch and his company
turned inside out by the whole thing. Costs of half a billion,
suggestion from one senior executive secretly recorded sometime ago, that
it could be ?1 billion. There is this trial to Easter. There are
other trials going on reckoned to be the end of 2015 and then brewing
nastily in the undergrowth is and the fact that News International,
News Corporation have been told they are suspects in an ongoing inquiry
into a corporate criminal liability. Corporate criminal liability?
Corporate criminal liability which will have the FBI sniffing around
it, but means that if the company were to be found guilty of that,
they become criminally liable. For Rupert Murdoch, it really couldn't
be much worse and the stakes here really are very high, indeed. I
should say all eight of the defendants on trial now deny the
charges. One of the most enigmatic and
influential figures in pop music is dead. Most of us would probably
recognise Lou Reed's Perfect Day, but you certainly couldn't measure
his significance in sales. Lou Reed said he didn't give a damn about his
legacy except he used a much stronger word than "damn". Much of
his music was almost unlistenable to. But for all that he could
genuinely have the word "legendary" attached to his name. Stephen Smith
has five things you didn't know about Lou Reed. Because we are
saluting Lou Reed on Newsnight, we have decided to break with tradition
and feature a man being grumpy on camera! Is that a good opportunity?
What do you mean authenticity from whom? It is funny having someone
from TV asking that question. It is like the lowest medium there is.
The velvet Underground in one of their first appearances. We haven't
got to the end of the effect they had on rock'n'roll. It is like that
famous early Sex Pistols gig in Manchester. Everyone supposedly
there went into the music business, but without Lou Reed there may not
have been any Sex Pistols. # Plucked her eyebrows on the way
# Shaved her leg # She said take a walk on the wild
side # I said honey, take a walk on the
wild side. # Reed sang about he being a she, that
was from life. Reed said his parents made him have electric shock
treatment as a boy to cure homosexual urges. You are a man of a
few words, why is this? I have little to say. Do you like press
interviews in general? No. Lou Reed put the pop into pop art
and it was the art he was really interested in. He was a friend and
associate of Andy Warhol. Lou Reed saw himself as a writer. It is a
little known fact that Lou Reed toppled communism, not on his own.
# Just a perfect day # Drink sangria in the park." When
Prague was behind the Iron Curtain, underground albums inspired
reformers not least their leader and their movement was dubbed the Velvet
just a perfect day. # # Feed animals in the zoo #
On tour, in fancy hotels, Lou Reed would find himself sleeping on the
floor because of a bad back as he used to do through lack of funds
when he was just starting out. Ill health became a problem. Four months
ago, he had a liver transplant claiming, "I am a triumph of modern
medicine." It was aironic. -- ironic. I don't like journalists. I
despise them. Why? They are disgusting. With the
exception of you! With the exception of tu! -- of you! Mainly the
English, the pigs. It might have gratified Lou Reed to
see how those journalists toiled to praise him today.
The singer Rufus Wainwright was a friend of Lou Reed. He joins us from
Seattle. When did you first meet him, please?
Well, I actually met Lou before I made my first album. I was a waiter
at a restaurant in New York City, the Lion's Head and he was my first
ever customer! And I was very afraid and he ordered French toast with no
butter. What was he like as a human being?
As a friend? Yes. Of course, there is a lot of talk about his, you
know, grumpy nature and his critical outlook and slightly, you know,
negative ambiance, but really behind that, he was such a kind and gentle
and soleful man. -- soulful man. Part of the reason he might have
been so pug nacious, it was a defence mechanism. Like a great
chocolate or something, he was hard on the outside and very, very soft
on the inside. So he was a lovely guy.
Is it possible to be precise about what his contribution to music was?
Well, I think, I mean, you can never, he invented cool in terms of
the music industry and when I say cool, I mean real cool. I am not
talking Elvis cool or Marvin Gaye cool, I am talking about completely
cutting edge. Completely, I don't know, just the coolest kid in the
class and so I think, you know, much like someone like other people from
that era, he just, he cre critted a benchmark -- created a benchmark.
But this was not just a question of style, was it? I mean he had
encountered cultural terms, I guess, a political stick about him, didn't
he? Yes. He seemed to - he was not - he didn't believe in full hit.
Whether it was a political party or, you know, or a social movement or
art or anything, he just told it as he saw it and it was always
opinioniated and very, very refreshing, but, you know,
disturbing as well if you were on the other side of that, you know,
pointed argument. What was he like to work with? He
was hell to work with! Utter hell. At the end of the day, we would get
it done. We did a few shows together. We did Christmas shows
together. I had to sing Blue Christmas with Lou. He with had to
do one song and the last time we did this and it took three hours to get
what he wanted! Why? Oh, I don't know. He enjoyed torturing, you
know, the musicians and doing it over again and then, of course, when
we got up to do it on stage, it was completely different. I don't think
he wanted anything set and the minute people started to get their
heads around something, that was when it was time to throw the wrench
in it! Which is great. Do you have a favourite song of his?
Well, I mean, I was listening a lot to Pale Blue Eyes recently and also
there was a song that I loved. I can never remember the title, but the
one that starts, "Because if you close the door." Can you sing us a
phrase or two? I will sing you a little bit of it, sorry!
I am going to take from the bridge down to the end.
# Shiny cadillac cars # People on subways looking grey
# Other people look well in the dark # If you close the door
# The night could last forever # Leave the sunshine out and say
hello to never # All the people who dance and they
are having so much fun # I wish it could happen to me
# Because if you close the door, I would never have to see the day
again # I would never have to see the day
again # One more time
# I would never have to see the day again #
Thank you very much indeed. Good night. Thank you.
Thank you. Farewell then, Jude.
Trains were halted for a bit at least. One should not take too light
of it because there were several tragic fatalities, but St Jude
didn't cause the mayhem we were warned about. Perhaps the reason
that we got off lightly compared to the great storm of 1987 was because
we were well warned. Zoe Conway reports.
Storm Jude arrived as predicted. It hit the south-west of England at
around midnight. Hurricane Force winds moved north-east wards. It
caused death and injury and cut power to hundreds of thousands of
homes. But because of advances in science and technology, this storm
didn't take us by surprise. It is 3am here in Exmouth, but this storm
has only got going. It is an unusual weather event when storms cross the
Atlantic, they burn themselves out, but this one kept on going. Falling
trees proved deadly. The bodies of a man and a woman were pulled from the
wreckage of their home. It exploded when a tree fell on to the gas
mains. A 17-year-old woman was crushed to death when a tree crashed
on had to her caravan. A bus was also toppled injuring the driver and
several passengers. At this Devon county council incident room, they
watched Storm Jude's every move. We have had a report of a tree falling.
It is a large tree. Hundreds of cameras monitored the
roads and the rivers. Twitter provided rumours and facts about the
damage the storm was causing and there were meteorological maps.
Tracking the storm as comes in and the intensity as well. We will keep
an eye on it. We have guys on the ground who are also eyes and ears.
Travellers out there would be seeing trees falling. Maybe some isolated
flooding. They will be passing that on. When they get that information
in here, we contact our local agents and they can send teams tout to deal
with it. We might have to close roads.
Six days ago, storm Jude didn't exist. Yet here at the Met Office in
Exeter, they knew it was coming and accurately predicted its path. This
is where the storm started. As it came towards the UK it really began
to develop strongly and brought some strong gusts of wind across the
southern half of the UK especially where we have this hook of cloud and
now it is tracking in towards the North Sea and going towards the low
countries and northern Germany where we will see strong winds, if not
stronger winds than we have seen across the southern UK this morning.
The science and technology has been transformed since the Great Storm of
1987 which the weathermen failed to warn us about. Behind me is the Met
Office's super computer. It is like a giant calculator. It takes the raw
weather data out there like temperature, air pressure and
humidity. Gravity, the laws of motion and it does its sums at a
rate of 100 trillion calculations per second.
It is so much better than it was those years ago. It enables us to
have a detailed picture of weather over the world at any particular
time. Then the scale of super computing which allows us to analyse
the satellite da data. So in 30 years, in any technology, you would
expect a lot of change. 30 years in meteorology has been a world of
difference. Because of the accuracy of the
forecasting, emergency workers in Devon were ready. The highway has
been proactive this evening. They have come out and they are clearing
away which is great. They were out within five minutes of us calling
them. They have been really good clearing the drains and any of the
issues that we have had. But this was still a deadly weather
event. Science might be able to predict the weather. The authorities
might feel they can organise and manage it, but we can't control it.
Before we go, we return to our main story, the financial settlement
reached between Haringey Council and Sharon Shoesmith, the head of
children's services sacked after the Baby Peter case. The payout we
understand involves six figures. We have learned the figure reflects the
total payment and Ms Shoesmith may receive a lower sum.
The Sun has news that Jimmy Savile's driver, who was due to appear in
court has been found dead. The Daily Mail, mother's agony, a report of
one of the unfortunate fatalities caused by the storm.
And the Daily Mirror goes with some of the unfortunate stories of what
happened as a consequence of the storm.
That's it. Emily is here tomorrow. What may turn out to be the last
poem written by the great Irish poet, Seamus Heaney who died in
August has been published. It is called In A Field. It pictures
a soldier returning from the war. The actor Gabriel Byrne read it for
us. And there I was in the middle of a
field. The furrows once called "scores"
still with their gloss. The tractor with its hoisted plough
just gone. Snarling at an unexpected speed out
on the road. Last of the jobs.
The windings had been ploughed, furrows turned. Three ply or four
round each of the four sides of the breathing land to mark it off and
out. Within that boundary now step the
fleshy earth and follow the long healed footprints of one who
arrived. From nowhere, unfamiliar and de-mobbed. In buttoned khaki and
buffed army boots. Bruising the turned-up acres of our
back field to stumble from the windings magic ring and take me by a
hand to lead me back. Through the same old gate into the
yard where everyone has suddenly appeared all standing
Newsnight reveals an exclusive story. Plus Iran's secret war in Syria, storm St Jude and Rufus Wainright on Lou Reed. With Jeremy Paxman.