29/10/2013 Newsnight


29/10/2013

Is HS2 rail worth it? Natascha McElhone on feminism, the Marines and the war crimes trial, Larry Flynt on the fate of his would-be assassin, and the energy bosses.


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Transcript


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Are Labour about to come to the rescue of the HS2 train line, as new

:00:09.:00:15.

figures cast fresh doubt on the plan's value for money. Our flash

:00:16.:00:20.

new expensive high-speed railway line will it deliver more than a

:00:21.:00:25.

boring plain old slow one. The Transport Secretary will make the

:00:26.:00:27.

case and explain why it is not really a waste of money.

:00:28.:00:36.

# As Mrs Pankhurst said # Enough is enough

:00:37.:00:44.

# Chain today a railing... How can the femmeismism of the 1970s emerge

:00:45.:00:50.

to deal with 20th century sexists. Our guests have some suggestions.

:00:51.:00:56.

Should this British Army court martial of three marines show the

:00:57.:01:00.

public a video of their alleged war crime. We will ask Colonel Tim

:01:01.:01:06.

Collins, the best known face of the Iraq War for army. The publisher of

:01:07.:01:15.

Hustler, a porn bar gone, to be executed next week, we will hear

:01:16.:01:25.

from Larry Flynt himself. Hello, good evening, when the

:01:26.:01:28.

Government started banging the drum for HS2 on the airwaves first thing

:01:29.:01:36.

this morning, they may not have realised the project would get a

:01:37.:01:39.

shot in the arm from an unlikely source. After a cooling enthusiasm

:01:40.:01:45.

from the shadow charley, Ed Balls, Labour has pledged support to the

:01:46.:01:53.

project. The in coming project must be allowed the power to bring down

:01:54.:01:59.

the cost. Could it be back on the agenda? This does seem a change in

:02:00.:02:03.

the mood music, talk us through what happens what has happened? It is a

:02:04.:02:07.

change and the reports look correct. I don't think Ed Miliband acted

:02:08.:02:11.

entirely unprompted. He has clarified his position because this

:02:12.:02:14.

programme understands this evening there was a meeting of some 40

:02:15.:02:18.

Labour MPs in parliament. They asked the shadow Transport Secretary, Mary

:02:19.:02:24.

Creagh, newly in her job, to come to her and explain in public why the

:02:25.:02:34.

party is soon to cool so rapidly on HS2. They were Nottingham MPs,

:02:35.:02:42.

Nottingham MPs, they will gain rupture for their constituencies. A

:02:43.:02:46.

lot of them said the economic benefits are strong and we can't

:02:47.:02:52.

have this wavering that you have allowed, Ed Miliband. We have seen

:02:53.:02:55.

him tomorrow I think strengthen his position, that is because he was

:02:56.:02:58.

being told by his backbenchers, and indeed there was some front-benchers

:02:59.:03:02.

present too, that this position was not tenable. We spoke to one of them

:03:03.:03:09.

this evening. The feeling that Ed Balls, under the leadership of the

:03:10.:03:15.

Labour Party, really the Labour Party in the whole of the country.

:03:16.:03:18.

Rather than trying to undermine the project, they should be out there

:03:19.:03:22.

campaigning strongly for it. Just explain then the political

:03:23.:03:26.

significance of this. It seems like an Ed versus Ed battle possibly, and

:03:27.:03:31.

more widely for the project? It is at some point Ed versus Ed, it was

:03:32.:03:36.

party conference where Ed Balls said from the podium, when he gave his

:03:37.:03:39.

speech, actually we won't sign a blank cheque for this. A completely

:03:40.:03:42.

reasonable thing to say, but for many people in the party it was a

:03:43.:03:46.

shock. They accept the economic tests need to be there, and indeed

:03:47.:03:50.

that is probably going to be the nature of how Ed Miliband is beefing

:03:51.:03:53.

up their position. They don't quite understand why he did it in the way

:03:54.:03:57.

he did it. What I think has happened is that at every stage Ed Balls has

:03:58.:04:02.

been pushing and pushing and pushing because it is so tantalising, if you

:04:03.:04:06.

are the Shadow Chancellor to possibly shelf the project and at

:04:07.:04:12.

every stage Ed Miliband has not been tough enough with him and he has had

:04:13.:04:18.

to do that. Oh aye what's that then peers to be where Labour is sitting.

:04:19.:04:20.

Will the public be convinced with the new set of figures for HS2.

:04:21.:04:27.

First our chief train spotter got his hands on the latest figures.

:04:28.:04:34.

What will be the next chapter in our railway history, will it include HS

:04:35.:04:39.

2? As political support for the project has got shakier, it is more

:04:40.:04:43.

important than ever for the Government to be able to point to

:04:44.:04:47.

Australian shakably robust business cas Trying to work out the value for

:04:48.:04:52.

money of an historic transport project, like this beauty they

:04:53.:04:56.

London Transport Museum is comparatively easy, all the data is

:04:57.:05:00.

in and can be known with a bit of research. Trying to peer forward

:05:01.:05:05.

into the future is far harder. Today HS2 had their latest go at peering

:05:06.:05:09.

into the future. Their fifth attempt at constructing a business model.

:05:10.:05:15.

Presenting this latest version, the Transport Secretary said the new

:05:16.:05:18.

line still represents excellent value for money. The business case,

:05:19.:05:23.

including the cost benefit figures is strong for HS2. More than ?2

:05:24.:05:30.

return for every ?1 invested. The calculation that the Transport

:05:31.:05:33.

Secretary is hinting at there is one that gets a lot of attention in any

:05:34.:05:38.

big project. It is the benefit cost ratio, or BCR. In today's figures

:05:39.:05:45.

the Government ace that HS2 will give back ?2.30 in benefits for

:05:46.:05:49.

every poop 1 spent. That is down from ?2. 50, it is what the

:05:50.:05:54.

Department for Transport would call "high value for money. If you look

:05:55.:05:59.

closely this figure includes what is known as wider economic impacts.

:06:00.:06:02.

These are far less certain benefits from things like regeneration. And

:06:03.:06:08.

the DFT's own guidance says these shouldn't actually be included to

:06:09.:06:12.

calculate the cost benefit ratio for a project. If we strip these out the

:06:13.:06:19.

ratio goes back to ?1. 80 back for every ?1, and moves from high value

:06:20.:06:24.

to medium value for money. According to the leader of Manchester City

:06:25.:06:29.

council, the project is more vital than ever. The business has always

:06:30.:06:34.

stacked up, clearly the papers themselves say that you need to

:06:35.:06:39.

update that on a regular basis. The proper published today not only

:06:40.:06:44.

shows the robustness of the business case for high-speed rail, it does a

:06:45.:06:49.

thorough analysis of the alternatives, and it is whether

:06:50.:06:52.

through improvements to the road network or existing rail network,

:06:53.:06:56.

nothing is anywhere near as effective as that brand new network,

:06:57.:07:00.

which is what we really need. HS2 has been going through some

:07:01.:07:05.

difficult days recently. Firstly the projected cost has gone up by nearly

:07:06.:07:08.

a third, and secondly both the National Audit Office and the Public

:07:09.:07:12.

Accounts Committee of the House of Commons have suggested the benefits

:07:13.:07:16.

should be revised down markedly. You would perhaps think when this was

:07:17.:07:20.

all factored in the business case would now look far less attractive

:07:21.:07:24.

than the figures presented today. So what has happened here? Well, as the

:07:25.:07:31.

costs have gone up, HS2 Ltd haven't been sitting back in their seats

:07:32.:07:37.

twiddling their thumbs and staring they scenery, they have been

:07:38.:07:40.

effective in identifying vast new areas of benefit that supposedly HS2

:07:41.:07:44.

will unlock for us. Chief amongst these are benefits to business

:07:45.:07:48.

travellers. When HS2 first calculated their

:07:49.:07:52.

benefit to business travellers from the new line, in February 2011, they

:07:53.:07:58.

put the figure at ?25. 2 billion. Although since then there has been a

:07:59.:08:02.

change to the way the figures are presented, meaning to be comparable

:08:03.:08:07.

we have to add a billion more. By August 2012 that figure had leapt to

:08:08.:08:13.

?34. 3 billion, and in today's calculation it is put at ?40. 5 bill

:08:14.:08:17.

juvenility or around ?15 billion more than the original estimate than

:08:18.:08:21.

2011. If you look through the hundreds and hundreds of pages of

:08:22.:08:27.

developments that HS2 Ltd have published today you can find out why

:08:28.:08:30.

this big leap has happened in the supposed benefits to business

:08:31.:08:33.

travellers, it is because they now assume a far higher proportion of

:08:34.:08:36.

people on trains are business travellers. For example, if you look

:08:37.:08:41.

at the previous model, the previous estimate, back in 2012 they thought

:08:42.:08:46.

that around 30% of travellers on a train between London and Manchester

:08:47.:08:50.

were travelling on business. Now they assume it is about 65%. In

:08:51.:08:55.

other words more than double. And because of the way they value

:08:56.:08:59.

business travellers' time above that of commuters or leisure travellers,

:09:00.:09:05.

that means big, big benefits to HS2. This kind of change has led some to

:09:06.:09:09.

accuse the Government of making the evidence fit the policy, rather than

:09:10.:09:12.

the other way round. The very least when the evidence changes policy

:09:13.:09:15.

doesn't appear to reflect that. Whether it is in the sort of

:09:16.:09:18.

economic advantages the Government predict for the regions, which our

:09:19.:09:22.

members are sceptical off, or the detail of who works on trains and

:09:23.:09:26.

who doesn't. Or capacity atation, I think there is an element of dogma

:09:27.:09:29.

to the Government as approach. I think the debate should still be

:09:30.:09:34.

had. This is what the future of transport looked like 80 years ago

:09:35.:09:40.

in 1933. The Airport would be elevated 120 feet above the ground,

:09:41.:09:45.

clear of all obstructions. Perhaps the biggest problem with the

:09:46.:09:48.

Government's business model for HS2 is it is trying to make redictions

:09:49.:09:53.

at how we will be travelling up to 80 years in the future.

:09:54.:10:01.

In 2093 will HS2 look like a good investment or as crazy as this 1933

:10:02.:10:06.

motorbike wheel contraption looks to us today. Just before we came on air

:10:07.:10:15.

a little earlier I put those points to the Transport Secretary and ask

:10:16.:10:20.

if he was confident the cost of HS2 wouldn't rise again? We deliberately

:10:21.:10:24.

built in large contingecy. We have set a target for phase I, at ?21

:10:25.:10:31.

billion, but actually I have told HS2 I want phase I to be built for

:10:32.:10:37.

?17 billion. It is right on big projects like this to have a

:10:38.:10:40.

contingency that is part of the budget. I very much hope it will be

:10:41.:10:43.

delivered for less than the budget we have set. And yet even with this

:10:44.:10:48.

jump, another ?10 billion, the reduction in economic returns is

:10:49.:10:52.

only slight. The figure out today goes from ?2. 50 to ?2.30, how can

:10:53.:10:58.

that be credible? It is credible, there is other things that come into

:10:59.:11:02.

the account, and come into the system. But I'm not so... Like what?

:11:03.:11:08.

The use of the capacity argument, the amount of trains that are run,

:11:09.:11:16.

and arguments like that. You say "like that", like what? When you

:11:17.:11:19.

give people these figures and they know it is costing ?10 billion more,

:11:20.:11:25.

they don't look believable? They are believable, everything we publish is

:11:26.:11:29.

crawled over by various people, if we get it wrong we will be told. The

:11:30.:11:33.

simple fact is, let me deal with VCR, it is an important people. If

:11:34.:11:38.

you looked at the VCR for the Jubilee Line it was less than one.

:11:39.:11:41.

Actually it would not have stood up to economic value. But it is in

:11:42.:11:45.

London, it has led to the development of Canary Wharf. Over

:11:46.:11:51.

00,000 jobs. At the moment in London we are building CrossRail, a ?15

:11:52.:11:56.

billion project. Nobody complains about this with a similar VCR. This

:11:57.:12:00.

is a chance for northern cities to get their part of transport

:12:01.:12:03.

infrastructure spending. Just questioning how you arrived at the

:12:04.:12:07.

figures you arrived at today. For example we are now looking at begin

:12:08.:12:12.

to business leaping from ?25. 2 to ?40. 5. How did that work out? It

:12:13.:12:19.

works out because what we're told and how the economic case is worked

:12:20.:12:23.

out. That is a point. What do you mean the way we have been told and

:12:24.:12:27.

the way the case is worked out. How does it leap from ?25. 2 to ?40. 5?

:12:28.:12:34.

Because there is new information coming into being and that is

:12:35.:12:36.

classed into the overall figures and case. What sort of new information,

:12:37.:12:40.

they were wrong last time. You published figures today saying they

:12:41.:12:44.

go from 25-40? They weren't wrong last time. They were figures that

:12:45.:12:47.

were published. We have done more work on it, which is what we were

:12:48.:12:51.

asked to do by the Public Accounts Committee. These are important

:12:52.:12:54.

matters. What I have also got to do, as far as the Transport Secretary is

:12:55.:12:57.

concerned, is actually look at what is the benefit for the north. So I

:12:58.:13:01.

have just come from a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce in Manchester,

:13:02.:13:05.

they tell me how important the high-speed line is for them. This is

:13:06.:13:11.

predicated on an incredibly optimistic forecast in growth on

:13:12.:13:15.

this route. If we look back to what happened on HS1, the forecasts were

:13:16.:13:21.

far too high, there was a 30% overestimation. Why don't you say

:13:22.:13:24.

you don't know what will happen in terms of the route and numbers of

:13:25.:13:27.

people travelling. Why would you make a forecast that ties you into

:13:28.:13:31.

these kinds of numbers that people are not believing any more? You say

:13:32.:13:36.

they are not believing, the CBI have welcomed the case we are publishing.

:13:37.:13:41.

The Chamber of Commerce has too. The FTSE 100 business leaders poll says

:13:42.:13:44.

49% of those who responded are against HS2. They don't see a

:13:45.:13:48.

credible need for it any more? If you are saying 49% are against. 33

:13:49.:13:55.

are in favour? Well. That has fallen, that is the point, that has

:13:56.:13:58.

fallen over the last year? The truth is that big infrastructure projects

:13:59.:14:02.

are always controversial until they are built. When they are built

:14:03.:14:06.

people say that they were the right thing to do. The same arguments were

:14:07.:14:11.

made about the M 40, about the M 25, people were opposed to those. They

:14:12.:14:14.

are very important parts of the infrastructure of our country. I

:14:15.:14:18.

have just come from a meeting with the Chamber of Commerce and what

:14:19.:14:21.

they were telling me, this is important for Manchester. The

:14:22.:14:25.

problem people have with this, when they are listening and reading the

:14:26.:14:29.

figures and crawling over the pages, they feel a lot of the figures are

:14:30.:14:32.

being massaged and made to fit the picture your Government wants to

:14:33.:14:36.

portray. If you take the KPMG report in the summer, it talked about a ?15

:14:37.:14:41.

billion benefit to Britain, it didn't give the raw figures or the

:14:42.:14:44.

places that wouldn't benefit that would have adverse effects? Hold on,

:14:45.:14:48.

CrossRail is being built at the moment through London. I want to

:14:49.:14:52.

talk about the KPMG figures that you put out which said a ?15 billion

:14:53.:14:56.

benefit to Britain. It took Newsnight and an FOI to find out the

:14:57.:15:00.

truth of the figure, why not come forward with them? Hold on,

:15:01.:15:03.

CrossRail is being built, I don't think you would say the people in

:15:04.:15:06.

Manchester are getting much benefit from CrossRail. I'm not talking

:15:07.:15:11.

about CrossRail but the fact that you said there is a ?15 billion

:15:12.:15:16.

benefit to Britain, that was what the report was about, you didn't

:15:17.:15:19.

give the raw details and you didn't come forward, it to be a Freedom of

:15:20.:15:23.

Information request to find out what the adverse effects of that were?

:15:24.:15:26.

There are many bits of infrastructure that are taking place

:15:27.:15:29.

at the moment that don't affect different parts of the country. It

:15:30.:15:32.

is not they don't affect, Aberdeen will be worse off, Norfolk, do you

:15:33.:15:37.

concede that now? No I don't, I believe the UK will be better off to

:15:38.:15:41.

the tune of ?15 billion overall. Other areas will benefit as well.

:15:42.:15:45.

The simple fact that Aberdeen doesn't benefit as you say, Aberdeen

:15:46.:15:49.

doesn't benefit from CrossRail. It doesn't benefit from Thames link.

:15:50.:15:54.

But it benefits from other bits of infrastructure we are putting in.

:15:55.:15:56.

Why not give the raw figures and let people work it out for themselves

:15:57.:16:01.

rather than mushing the message? -- pushing the message? I have

:16:02.:16:06.

published all the documents for the background of this case. What do you

:16:07.:16:11.

think of when you hear the word "feminism", women on the streets

:16:12.:16:15.

marching for equal pay and talking about domestic violence. Academics

:16:16.:16:19.

debating just exactly which wave of the moment we are now on or

:16:20.:16:23.

something scarily ernest, a little humourless perhaps that is the

:16:24.:16:26.

subject of Town Hall talks. It might be time to think again, a new

:16:27.:16:30.

movement on-line is challenging the stereotype, fighting new ground.

:16:31.:16:35.

Here is the digital feminists. Pause for reflection, in their tiny

:16:36.:16:41.

mirror on the shoulder, it lets you know as a glance who is glancing, it

:16:42.:16:47.

might safe a biff in the back from a burst. That man seems to be heard

:16:48.:16:51.

and not seen. Oh how times have changed. Of course the modern woman

:16:52.:16:55.

doesn't really need a wing mirror on her shoulder in order to report back

:16:56.:16:58.

on the world around her, because she has one of these in her teeny W

:16:59.:17:08.

eenie hand, she can blog, she can post, she c tell the world how she

:17:09.:17:16.

feels. I noticed after perhaps a stop or two that he was getting

:17:17.:17:21.

aroused. And then eventually he started stroking my leg, and I told

:17:22.:17:25.

him to stop. It wasn't until I got to work that I found see men down

:17:26.:17:33.

the back of my legs. The Everyday Sexism Project is a website launched

:17:34.:17:37.

last year by Laura Bates, who wanted to create a place where individuals

:17:38.:17:40.

could report their own experiences of sexism. Just to look at some

:17:41.:17:46.

recent entries, man more than twice her age thought it appropriate to

:17:47.:17:49.

tell her she was well developed for a 16-year-old in a good

:17:50.:18:08.

What is important to say is a lot of people who write into us specify the

:18:09.:18:13.

fact that they feel absolutely frozen, ashamed, embarrassed, those

:18:14.:18:17.

are common reactions when that kind of harassment happens. I don't think

:18:18.:18:21.

it is the case if they didn't write to Everyday Sexism Project they

:18:22.:18:23.

would otherwise say something back, I think they had been silenced for a

:18:24.:18:27.

long time. These stories haven't stayed in the digital world, some

:18:28.:18:32.

were used by police in a campaign on London Transport resulting in

:18:33.:18:35.

increased reporting of sexual offences and increased detection

:18:36.:18:40.

rates too. These are still early days for assessing the impact of

:18:41.:18:44.

that heady combo of individual power and its ability to shift entrenched

:18:45.:18:50.

positions. One of those being the mainstream media's obsession with

:18:51.:18:54.

breasts. Perhaps you saw this, curtesy of the

:18:55.:19:03.

Daily Mail, when performance artistam Amanda Palmer appeared at

:19:04.:19:06.

Glastonbury, she revealed one bossom to the crowd. Her song about how

:19:07.:19:14.

that bossom became important not her art went viral.

:19:15.:19:18.

# Dear Daily Mail # It has come to my recent attention

:19:19.:19:23.

# That my recent appearance at Glastonbury festival

:19:24.:19:30.

# Kindly received a mention The beautiful thing about new media,

:19:31.:19:35.

YouTube and Twitter, you are sharing all of these experiences in

:19:36.:19:39.

real-time you are relying on each other, by the time I got home that

:19:40.:19:43.

night somebody had already uploaded the video to YouTube, I took a look

:19:44.:19:47.

at it, shared it, and by the next morning it had gone viral. Do you

:19:48.:19:52.

have a sense there is a friction between different generations of

:19:53.:19:59.

feminism? This This generation is programmed to watch shows that

:20:00.:20:02.

resonate with them and what makes them feel more human. In that, I

:20:03.:20:10.

think you might see the seeds of a real change and a real evolution.

:20:11.:20:17.

Because you know, even ten or 15 years ago if I wanted to make a

:20:18.:20:21.

statement about something that was bothering me, I would be stuck

:20:22.:20:26.

talking to my friends or calling up the old media. Now I can say it

:20:27.:20:29.

directly, that will change the world, it already has.

:20:30.:20:35.

Stub burp, hard to shift, inequalities remain. It is the same

:20:36.:20:41.

old song isn't it. # As Mrs Pankhurst said

:20:42.:20:45.

# Enough's enough # Change a railing she would do her

:20:46.:20:49.

stuff # Nowadays a woman out for justice

:20:50.:20:55.

# Starts a fight for freedom # Where her bust is Modern feminism

:20:56.:21:01.

reflects modern society. If a criticism of previous waves of the

:21:02.:21:05.

movement was that the voice of feminism was often white, well-off

:21:06.:21:09.

and academic, that is not the case now. The visual exploitation of

:21:10.:21:14.

women goes hand in hand with the digital age, more images, easier to

:21:15.:21:19.

see, easier to share. It is one of the modern feminists' biggest

:21:20.:21:27.

battles. # I can pay for everything

:21:28.:21:30.

# Everything is on me # Little Blondie

:21:31.:21:38.

So this video, Calvin hare ruchings featuring Tinie Tempah, in terms of

:21:39.:21:44.

sexualisation of black women, they were not part of the plot of the

:21:45.:21:48.

video, they are shaking it on the carpet, you don't see their face,

:21:49.:21:52.

they are literally just bums. Ikamara Larasi is part of the

:21:53.:21:58.

Rewind Project, a one Topshop website that will allow

:21:59.:22:03.

users to send their comments direct to regulators and record labels. I

:22:04.:22:07.

asked her how she felt when she sees how young black women are portrayed

:22:08.:22:14.

in music videos? Bored and frustrated. The fact that this image

:22:15.:22:18.

is the normal depiction of people like me is a problem. That is the

:22:19.:22:23.

thing that people that don't know people like me are absorbing. Is

:22:24.:22:31.

there a danger though that people feel too powerful with the digital

:22:32.:22:35.

experience, you know you tweet something or you send an e-mail via

:22:36.:22:39.

your website and you think I have really packed a punch there? I think

:22:40.:22:44.

it is useful to feel like you have contributed to making a difference

:22:45.:22:48.

on a particular issue, and it wasn't too strenuous, and you didn't have

:22:49.:22:52.

to get wet in the rain. I think that is the good thing about digital

:22:53.:22:57.

campaigns. Not everyone believes that the new digital world will

:22:58.:23:02.

allow feminism to achieve its goals. Charlotte Raven is the editor of the

:23:03.:23:08.

Feminist Times, she has launched it digitally, but wants it to be a

:23:09.:23:12.

stimulus in meeting up and discussing ideas? When I read

:23:13.:23:15.

Everyday Sexism Project, I'm usually on my own. Often when I put the kids

:23:16.:23:22.

to bed I find myself drawn to it and there is a process of a kind of

:23:23.:23:28.

feeling of it is such a depressing litany of horror. And yet you feel

:23:29.:23:35.

impotent in relation to it. There is nothing you can do about it, the

:23:36.:23:43.

only way that change can be affected is in three dimensions by meeting up

:23:44.:23:49.

with real people who are going to change your mind and also change the

:23:50.:23:55.

world. Digital feminism has an ability to throw a cause around the

:23:56.:23:59.

world in seconds, and you can feel that you are creating a loud new

:24:00.:24:04.

noise. But the question is, how many people are listening.

:24:05.:24:10.

To try to answer that we are joined to discuss the F-word with the

:24:11.:24:17.

actress Natasha McElhone, journalist Angela Epstein and historian class

:24:18.:24:22.

cyst Mary Beard. Let's start with the real basic, Mary Beard would you

:24:23.:24:29.

define yourself using the word "feminist". Of course I would. No

:24:30.:24:34.

question. That's what I am, that's what I stand for. I think feminism

:24:35.:24:40.

comes in various forms, I don't think you can't lump everything

:24:41.:24:46.

together. And yet the bottom line is that I can't understand a woman in

:24:47.:24:52.

this country that isn't. Natasha McElhone would you say anything

:24:53.:24:55.

different to that? I guess what I would say is that I think feminism

:24:56.:24:59.

is an easy word for people to reject. And the sorts of people that

:25:00.:25:04.

I would probably like to tune in more to the issue. To be more

:25:05.:25:09.

conscious of how they are around women and how women are towards

:25:10.:25:13.

themselves. It is very, very easy for feminism to start to mean

:25:14.:25:18.

something that sort of akin to a political class that's in opposition

:25:19.:25:22.

to men. And so therefore people will feel defensive around that word. And

:25:23.:25:28.

I want that not to happen. I want to work together with men and I'm

:25:29.:25:33.

interested in equality rather than the idea that some people might have

:25:34.:25:40.

of a superior. Are you comfortable with the term "feminist"? Absolutely

:25:41.:25:46.

not, I wouldn't call myself a feminist. Part of the reason is all

:25:47.:25:49.

the great battles upon which feminism and the sufficient fridge

:25:50.:25:53.

movement have been established have long since been fought and

:25:54.:25:56.

successful. Ly. More women go to university than men, girls routinely

:25:57.:26:00.

outplay boys in the classroom, women have made an impact in all aspects

:26:01.:26:05.

of professional life, look at the glorious selection we have on

:26:06.:26:07.

Newsnight tonight. That stops you ever using the word feminist

:26:08.:26:12.

yourself? What I was about to say is what soh what has evolved now is an

:26:13.:26:17.

artificial engineering, a construct, because all those great battles have

:26:18.:26:21.

been fought. What feminists are now often looking for, they are spoiling

:26:22.:26:28.

for a fight, they seize upon petty grievances which offend the original

:26:29.:26:32.

principles of feminism. Talking about digital activism and all the

:26:33.:26:36.

hashtag sisters that come out crying in force. Yes there is a huge social

:26:37.:26:41.

grievance, digital media is very efficient in doing that. Look at the

:26:42.:26:44.

campaign to get women on bank notes. Does it really matter whether Jane

:26:45.:26:51.

Austen is on bank note or not? Do you agree the battles have been won?

:26:52.:26:54.

Clearly not because we are having this discussion. And I think what is

:26:55.:27:01.

new compared to 30 years ago is that it is more insidious, we're not

:27:02.:27:07.

talking about female genital mutilation, we are not talking about

:27:08.:27:11.

eight-year-olds marrying 40-year-olds as they do in other

:27:12.:27:15.

parts of the world. Today, here, in my life and in my circle of people

:27:16.:27:21.

that I mix with, something that's become terribly common place is how

:27:22.:27:26.

sort of internalised, I would even go as far to say a kind of misogyny

:27:27.:27:31.

has become. I don't think was prevalent when I was growing up and

:27:32.:27:36.

for my mother's generation. You were most recently the victim of

:27:37.:27:41.

trolling, on-line digital misogyny and your response to that when I

:27:42.:27:46.

read, I thought it was quite calm it was unemotional, almost like you

:27:47.:27:50.

didn't want to sound hysterical about it? I'm not on a rant or

:27:51.:27:54.

picking a fight. For me feminism isn't about picking a fight. I'm

:27:55.:28:01.

much more with Natasha. But it seems to me that I had a lot of trouble

:28:02.:28:08.

with on-line trolling. It was clear that, I'm 58, I'm quite tough, I

:28:09.:28:14.

have been around and I don't feel very bulliable. Yet there were a lot

:28:15.:28:19.

of women who were getting much what I was getting who were afraid to go

:28:20.:28:24.

out of their houses because people were going through on to their

:28:25.:28:28.

Twitter feeds saying we are you outside. What would be your response

:28:29.:28:32.

to Angela, who has just told us that the battles have been won and the

:28:33.:28:36.

battles are now minor ones? I think of course there has been enormous

:28:37.:28:43.

changes, there is a legislative framework which wasn't true in my

:28:44.:28:47.

mother's generation for equal pay, equal rights and so forth. In some

:28:48.:28:52.

ways I think we have done extremely well and we should be patting

:28:53.:28:57.

ourselves on the back. But it is also absolutely clear, you only have

:28:58.:29:02.

to look at sex sex to see the kind of stuff that is said about women

:29:03.:29:06.

day by day. I think it is very easy to say of those things, look they

:29:07.:29:10.

are terribly trivial, haven't you got a sense of humour. Let's bring

:29:11.:29:15.

them up, you mentioned them, we have had a tie in today, our hashtag for

:29:16.:29:24.

those of you following on Twitter is Hashimoto nn sexism. -- hashtag nn

:29:25.:29:33.

sexism. This is one. 14 doing a paper round

:29:34.:29:39.

in school uniform when a car of older guys start cat calling,

:29:40.:29:44.

Tooting and shouting at me. Should she wave it away? I would be

:29:45.:29:50.

concerned at a 14-year-old taking on a car full of guy, if any woman

:29:51.:29:56.

feels she is the victim of sexual objection, there are resources and

:29:57.:29:59.

ways to deal with that. The problem with sites like Everyday Sexism

:30:00.:30:02.

Project is you have on the one side some deeply unpleasant tweets as we

:30:03.:30:06.

saw in the film about the woman that was approached in the nightclub.

:30:07.:30:10.

That's harassment, that is an issue for the law enforcement authorities.

:30:11.:30:13.

And then you have people going on saying they are complaining because

:30:14.:30:18.

they were called "blossom" in the office work place, everything is

:30:19.:30:24.

lumped together. You mentioned "blossom", there is one that

:30:25.:30:31.

mentioned flower, bring Laura said being called "flower" by a BT

:30:32.:30:36.

salesman coming in to work to flog the man in charge cheaper broadband.

:30:37.:30:41.

How do you react to that, do you cast it aside or do you risk being

:30:42.:30:46.

called humourless or do you take it to a tribunal? Not this one, but

:30:47.:30:50.

these kinds of examples? I think the really important point is that women

:30:51.:30:55.

aren't being represented for what they are actually doing and

:30:56.:31:00.

contributing in society. That is my main bug bear, the objection, what

:31:01.:31:06.

we see -- objectionation, what we see representations of women, they

:31:07.:31:11.

are pornographic images on the front covers of magazines and billboards,

:31:12.:31:17.

that is largely how women are physically represented. My interest

:31:18.:31:21.

was in sort of doing a thought reversal of if that was men who were

:31:22.:31:25.

being represented in that way how would they feel. And how would we as

:31:26.:31:31.

women respond to to that. Some women get empowered by that, if we look at

:31:32.:31:35.

the typical page 3 girl, that is sexual objectcation. As a society we

:31:36.:31:41.

should balk at, that I don't want my kids to look at that eating

:31:42.:31:45.

breakfast. By the same token you can get a woman who feels empowered and

:31:46.:31:52.

professionally successful sunbathing topless, what is the difference

:31:53.:31:55.

between that. She objectifies herself? What shall we do about

:31:56.:31:59.

these kinds of tweets, that was Emily's question. The things coming

:32:00.:32:02.

up through Everyday Sexism Project. There is lots of things to do, you

:32:03.:32:05.

can ridicule them, complain about them, you can giggle at the Lily

:32:06.:32:11.

blokes saying this. But I think individually there is all sorts of

:32:12.:32:16.

responses. But I think what -- silly blokes saying this. There are all

:32:17.:32:21.

sorts of responses. It is the aggregate of this, it is not just

:32:22.:32:25.

somebody calling you "blossom". The people who look on this website are

:32:26.:32:29.

not the blokes presumably that are being discussed? That's not the

:32:30.:32:34.

point though. I think the issue is, one of the questions that we are

:32:35.:32:39.

still asking ourselves is why are there relatively few women in public

:32:40.:32:42.

life. Why are there relatively few women at the top of industry. Why is

:32:43.:32:47.

women's success above the glass ceiling so limited. One of the

:32:48.:32:52.

answers might be is because actually when we go out the kind of stuff we

:32:53.:32:57.

get delivered to us is this kind of crap. So the question is on a

:32:58.:33:01.

practical level, yes it is great that you have this aggregate of

:33:02.:33:04.

voices and people going on to a site to post, but if it was something

:33:05.:33:08.

more than that, if they took it to the outside world, would you like to

:33:09.:33:13.

see more practical endeavours rather than just going on-line and getting

:33:14.:33:18.

it off your chest, do you think there should be quotas, solutions?

:33:19.:33:22.

You have to go out and rant sometimes. There is a lot of knee

:33:23.:33:27.

jerk push-button reaction, the thing about digital media we can be brave

:33:28.:33:31.

as cyber warriors and not stand outside Downing Street with a

:33:32.:33:35.

petition. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy somebody

:33:36.:33:38.

starts a petition on-line saying women shouldn't be called "flower",

:33:39.:33:43.

it gathers moment it up all of its own. In terms of prescription, what

:33:44.:33:48.

would you do in terms of practical change? I actually think it is much

:33:49.:33:57.

simpler than we imagine. I think for example small things and again

:33:58.:34:00.

people think this is very archaic and old fashioned and ridiculous,

:34:01.:34:05.

things like children's toys. I think it starts when kids go to play

:34:06.:34:08.

school and this notion that there are Princesses and there are Knights

:34:09.:34:14.

that rescue the Princesses, and a school book day at my kids, a bunch

:34:15.:34:18.

of four or five-year-old, I counted one girl who was not a Princess. Now

:34:19.:34:24.

there just aren't. What is so terribl I have got boys and a girl,

:34:25.:34:27.

my little girl will play with the boys stuff if she wants to, or she

:34:28.:34:31.

will go through the Princess moment if she wants to. We are biologically

:34:32.:34:36.

wired to be different. That is fine you are offering her choices. She is

:34:37.:34:40.

offering herself choice, she is empowered by the existence of dolls

:34:41.:34:47.

and footballs. Ge Why do so many girls and it is a tragedy, when

:34:48.:34:50.

there was a survey done for schoolgirls under the age of nine

:34:51.:34:53.

who asked what they wanted to be when adult, they wanted to be a WAG,

:34:54.:34:58.

a footballers wife, that was the aspiration.

:34:59.:35:02.

Maybe that's for another discussion. Thank you all very much. I'm so

:35:03.:35:07.

sorry we have run out of time then. Tomorrow the court martial of the

:35:08.:35:11.

three Royal Marines for murder continues. With testimony from the

:35:12.:35:17.

man known as Marine A, all three deny murdering an Afghan insurgent

:35:18.:35:21.

as he lay badly wounded in a field. All have been granted anonymity, and

:35:22.:35:27.

yesterday a judge ruled the video coverage of the incident which led

:35:28.:35:30.

to their arrest should not be shown publicly. We We report on the

:35:31.:35:40.

footage, none of the pictures are from the video in question. The

:35:41.:35:44.

footage we can't show you tonight was shot on a helmet-mounted camera,

:35:45.:35:49.

it was shown to a jury and military court in Wiltshire last week. The

:35:50.:35:55.

video showed several minutes of recording shot by Marine B in a

:35:56.:36:02.

field in September 2011 in Helmand, footage they presumably hoped would

:36:03.:36:05.

never come to light. The jury made up of Royal Marines and Royal Navy

:36:06.:36:12.

personnel watched as marine A, a Sergeant, shot the already badly

:36:13.:36:16.

wounded insurgent in the chest at close range with a 9mm pistol. The

:36:17.:36:21.

voices of all three accused can be heard on the video. .

:36:22.:36:30.

The media asked for the footage to be made public, but yesterday the

:36:31.:36:36.

judge rejected the idea, citing the risk to other serving personnel. He

:36:37.:36:38.

said: The court martial continues, with

:36:39.:36:50.

the defence expected to start tomorrow. Joining me now is the

:36:51.:36:58.

former British Army officer Colonel Tim Collins, and journalist and film

:36:59.:37:02.

maker Cray. Should material like this be made available, even if it

:37:03.:37:07.

is occasionally damaging or embarrassing? I guess you know we

:37:08.:37:12.

could turn British justice into the X Factor, where we let the public

:37:13.:37:16.

decide. That is not how it is. I think there is great power in the

:37:17.:37:20.

image. We saw disgraceful behaviour over the Mail on Sunday who took a

:37:21.:37:25.

photograph which is many years old and tried to portray it as a current

:37:26.:37:31.

photograph in order to stir up hatred against the British Army at

:37:32.:37:34.

the weekend coming up to Remembrance Sunday. That sort of behaviour needs

:37:35.:37:38.

to be deplored, that is what could happen with this material. I think

:37:39.:37:44.

the problem is that if you want to avoid the damage caused by the lease

:37:45.:37:49.

of footage of executions and war crimes and we don't know what

:37:50.:37:51.

happened in this particular cautious but in general terms. Then you don't

:37:52.:37:55.

commit the executions. Now that's not a trite thing to say, because it

:37:56.:37:59.

goes to the heart of what we are talking about, which is how you stop

:38:00.:38:04.

this kind of thing happening. It does go to the heart but you are

:38:05.:38:08.

talking about a small number affecting an entire army. First of

:38:09.:38:12.

all of course this case is isolated, but it is not unknown. You just need

:38:13.:38:16.

to think back to the Mussa case where a prisoner was beaten to

:38:17.:38:20.

DAECHLT there is a big inquiry going on about allegations of ex-judicial

:38:21.:38:27.

killings after battle in Iraq. These incidents do happen, the question is

:38:28.:38:30.

how do you stop them happening. That is fundamentally down to training in

:38:31.:38:35.

ethics and laws of war. But it is also, if those techniques fail, then

:38:36.:38:41.

I cannot think of anything better than reminding a shoulder than

:38:42.:38:45.

anything they do might be filled. So in that case we shouldn't be

:38:46.:38:48.

covering up the things that are actually happening, we are asking

:38:49.:38:51.

the wrong questions here, we should be looking at why that is happening?

:38:52.:38:56.

I think there is not covering up. There is where I differ with Callum,

:38:57.:39:02.

you are alleging things happened, and it is happening in the trial.

:39:03.:39:06.

You may know more than the judge at this stage. My understanding is

:39:07.:39:08.

there is a lot of lies being told in that case. The bottom line is we do

:39:09.:39:12.

have a judicial system here. It has to be followed. If you want to... We

:39:13.:39:18.

also have a system of openness and transparency as far as possible

:39:19.:39:23.

don't we? Where does the line on voyeurism and pornography and

:39:24.:39:26.

titillation start and the line where the public needs to know. If you

:39:27.:39:30.

have a murder trial and say I was disappointed and I didn't see the

:39:31.:39:34.

goryist photographs, the judge will say you saw what you needed to see.

:39:35.:39:39.

For a film maker you have had the accusations of gore and pornography

:39:40.:39:42.

levelled at you, a film maker always wants to see more? The point is that

:39:43.:39:47.

if you cover up this kind of evidence, then the danger is you

:39:48.:39:52.

create. But it hasn't been covered up? If you try to restrict it from

:39:53.:39:55.

public access. Who should be the judge, the public or the judge?

:39:56.:40:00.

Ultimately the public has to see justice done. It is pornography? It

:40:01.:40:05.

restrict and try to control it. Give me an example of a murder trial with

:40:06.:40:09.

all the blood and guts. We don't expect to see that do we? No, but if

:40:10.:40:12.

there is absolutely central evidence and there is the perception. If I

:40:13.:40:16.

can make the point. The photographs and the faces of MRDered people that

:40:17.:40:23.

is a good step forward, I don't think we, I don't think we need to

:40:24.:40:28.

see the gore. Death is an unhappy thing, it is a private thing, we

:40:29.:40:32.

don't need to see the detail unless for titillation. We are talking

:40:33.:40:35.

about the alleged abuses that have gone on and whether that should be

:40:36.:40:41.

sheltieered? There is a trial going on. I have seen death too it is a

:40:42.:40:45.

very, very horrible thing, I have seen it in reality and footage. The

:40:46.:40:48.

point is if the perception is created that you are trying to

:40:49.:40:53.

conceal the reality of this, then you create the perception that there

:40:54.:40:57.

is a culture let me finis let me finish. I don't if that is being

:40:58.:41:01.

created. You create the perception that there is a culture of impunity,

:41:02.:41:10.

that is the real danger. When soldiers in the opposition think

:41:11.:41:14.

there is a culture of impunity. Do you think it will be better if they

:41:15.:41:18.

see it than not? If there is cover up that is what causes suspicion and

:41:19.:41:24.

fear. The we who win the battle for -- the way you win the battle for

:41:25.:41:27.

hearts and minds is adhering to the rules of law not covering up for

:41:28.:41:31.

concealing that laws have been broken. Absolute nonsense, the fact

:41:32.:41:36.

is this is open law. What you are advocating is exactly what Al-Qaeda

:41:37.:41:42.

and the murders, that is why they murdered Drummer Lee Rigby in

:41:43.:41:47.

public, that is why they wanted to be photographed covered in the gore.

:41:48.:41:50.

They are denying the murder. Titillation has no place in a

:41:51.:41:54.

courthouse, no place in society. If you call it "titillation". That is

:41:55.:41:59.

all it is. Who is covering it up, it is being shown to the jurors, they

:42:00.:42:05.

are seeing it, those judge the evidence are seeing it, who else

:42:06.:42:08.

needs to see it. It is just you and me? If the public and more

:42:09.:42:12.

importantly the people with whom you may be in a war perceive that there

:42:13.:42:18.

is a culture of impunity, perceive that you are covering up evidence of

:42:19.:42:21.

crimes that creates suspicion, that increases the danger that the

:42:22.:42:25.

soldiers are in. Do you think for a second they have any regard for us

:42:26.:42:28.

at all and care what we do? I think we are out of time. Thank you for

:42:29.:42:31.

coming in. Politics is my hobby, smut is my

:42:32.:42:36.

vocation, declared the porn publisher, founder of Hustler and

:42:37.:42:39.

free speech campaigner, Larry Flynt. Yet today he has waded into one of

:42:40.:42:44.

the most heavily political disputes of our time. The right to life for a

:42:45.:42:49.

man on death row, who murdered many and left Flynt paralysed from a

:42:50.:42:54.

gunshot wound. He has been convicted of eight racially motivated murders

:42:55.:42:58.

across the US, and confessed to many more. I asked Larry Flynt what

:42:59.:43:04.

happened that day in 1978. I was on trial for obscenity in Georgia, I

:43:05.:43:08.

was shot on my way to the courthouse. I woke up three months

:43:09.:43:14.

later. Actually I was a whole year recovering. I really almost died as

:43:15.:43:19.

a result of a gunshot wound. But the man who shot me was never

:43:20.:43:28.

apprehended for several years. He been prosecuted and convicted for

:43:29.:43:33.

killing some more people, they were all racially motivated crimes. He

:43:34.:43:41.

was an avowed racist himself. He supposedly had shot me over a black

:43:42.:43:46.

and white photo feature that we had published in a magazine. That was

:43:47.:43:55.

what instigated it. The fact that he got the death penalty and these

:43:56.:44:00.

other shootings that he done, never really changed my mind about that

:44:01.:44:05.

particular issue. I just never felt it was a deterrent, and I always

:44:06.:44:12.

felt that we focussed more on revenge than justice. He scheduled

:44:13.:44:19.

to die next month, what would you like to see happen to him? I'm

:44:20.:44:24.

opposed to the death penalty, he should spend the rest of his life in

:44:25.:44:28.

prison. If the death penalty was a deterrent I could support it. Most

:44:29.:44:32.

of the civilised nations agree on that point. We happen to be one that

:44:33.:44:37.

doesn't. And I think it is ridiculous. You have said you would

:44:38.:44:41.

like to spend an hour in a room with him. What did you mean with that? I

:44:42.:44:45.

would like to inflict the same kind of puppishment that he did on me. I

:44:46.:44:52.

-- punishment that he did on me. I said give me a screwdriver and I

:44:53.:44:56.

could have some fun with him. It is not that I don't want to see him

:44:57.:45:00.

punished for what he has done. I don't think that the Government

:45:01.:45:03.

should be in the business of killing people. Does it make any difference

:45:04.:45:07.

if the families of the other men he has killed want to see him die on

:45:08.:45:13.

death row? No. It doesn't make any differences. I can't help it because

:45:14.:45:17.

these people are ill-informed. You know. They subscribe to the biblical

:45:18.:45:25.

philosophy and an eye for an eye. And it just doesn't make sense. You

:45:26.:45:30.

mentioned your trial for obscenity, you of course scannedised --

:45:31.:45:35.

scandalised America ten years ago with your take on the porn industry.

:45:36.:45:39.

What do you think of that industry now? Today you know what I was being

:45:40.:45:53.

criticised for and accused of everything that was wrong in America

:45:54.:45:59.

is now being common place on the Internet. And on great deal of

:46:00.:46:05.

television. Hustler magazine is very tame compared to what you see out

:46:06.:46:09.

there in the rest of the media. What do you think of the porn on the

:46:10.:46:13.

Internet now, should the Internet be unfettered or should there be

:46:14.:46:20.

controls? That's like being partially pregnant, you either got a

:46:21.:46:25.

free press or you don't. The one thing that Americans still cherish

:46:26.:46:28.

is the right to a free press. At the moment the British press is

:46:29.:46:33.

consumed with questions of its own freedoms. Do you believe that

:46:34.:46:37.

freedom of speech within the British media and press is under threat? I

:46:38.:46:43.

think they have a right to be concerned. Because as you know in

:46:44.:46:49.

Great Britain you don't have a constitutional right to a free

:46:50.:46:53.

press. So there is reasons to have pause about this, but the new

:46:54.:46:58.

technology is what's raising all of these questions. So I think it is

:46:59.:47:03.

time that the Government's get together with the technology people

:47:04.:47:08.

and come out with some rules for us to live by. So you think that the

:47:09.:47:13.

Government should have some kind of regulation over the press? No, I

:47:14.:47:20.

didn't say that, but I'm saying the Government should have a right to be

:47:21.:47:30.

able to protect people from an invasion of privacy. Or from basic

:47:31.:47:38.

actions. Thank you very much. Just before we go, let's take you

:47:39.:47:46.

through a quick whizz through the front

:47:47.:48:41.

That's all for tonight, Jeremy is back tomorrow. We will leave you

:48:42.:48:52.

with a post script to storm St Jude. The Atlantic swirls across the

:48:53.:49:02.

Portuguese coast were an attempt to break the biggest wave surfed, then

:49:03.:49:09.

along came a surfer's dream, all 100 feet of it.

:49:10.:49:23.

Is HS2 rail worth it? Natascha McElhone on feminism, the Marines and the war crimes trial, Larry Flynt on the fate of his would-be assassin, and the energy bosses.


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