31/10/2013 Newsnight


31/10/2013

With Kirsty Wark. The latest revelations in the phone hacking trial, music streaming service Spotify on its relationship with musicians, and Chile's presidential elections.


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Transcript


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The lead QC in the phone hacking trial reveals that Rebekah Brooks

:00:10.:00:15.

and Andy Coulson had a long affair while both at the News of the World.

:00:16.:00:18.

Did that mean they told each other everything? The man in charge of

:00:19.:00:23.

artist liaison at Spotify says musicians should have nothing to

:00:24.:00:26.

fear from the music streaming service. I would encourage all

:00:27.:00:30.

artists to weigh it up, make the best decision for their band.

:00:31.:00:33.

Ultimately there is almost no case for an artist not putting their

:00:34.:00:38.

music on Spotify. Moby will be joining us for his ideas for making

:00:39.:00:42.

money out of music. The rabid right, was David Cameron wrong to shun the

:00:43.:00:47.

grassroots and euro-sceptics. One influential Tory thinks so. Europe,

:00:48.:00:52.

welfare, immigration, on all the big issues of the last decade, the right

:00:53.:01:02.

has been right. And in Chile, how the Pinochet dictatorship still

:01:03.:01:05.

lives in the memory of those involved in the up coming pecks

:01:06.:01:10.

elections. TRANSLATION: There was a particular torture they used against

:01:11.:01:15.

women like me who refused to talk. It involves violent sexual abuse. I

:01:16.:01:23.

was pregnant at the time and I lost my

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Good evening, Anthony and Cleopatra, JFK and Marylin, John and Edwina,

:01:29.:01:35.

today in the phone hacking trial the court heard the revelation that

:01:36.:01:40.

Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson had Anne fair until since 2004, and may

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have lasted six years. Of course Andrew Edis QC said he was making no

:01:47.:01:50.

moral judgment or intruding into their privacy. But the fact of the

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affair meant that what Rebekah Brooks knew, Andy Coulson knew, and

:01:55.:01:58.

visa versa. That is what he wanted to put in the Mobitz of the jurors.

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This report contains flash photography.

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"The fact is you are my very best friend, I tell you everything, I

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confide in you, I seek your advice, I love you, care about you, worry

:02:13.:02:16.

about you, we laugh and cry together." The intimate details of

:02:17.:02:23.

an fair between two hugely high-profile public figures that had

:02:24.:02:26.

remained secret for years. A tale in fact that could have graced the

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front page of any edition of the News of the World. When the jury in

:02:31.:02:34.

court 12 of the Old Bailey heard those words today, they were being

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told a story that never made it into print. The revelation that this

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trial's two highest-profile defendant, Brooks Brookes and Andy

:02:45.:02:48.

Coulson had been illicit lovers for years. A fact that prosecutor Andrew

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Edis QC made much of. He raised it in connection with the

:02:51.:03:22.

hacking of Milly Dowler's voicemail. That the News of the World hacked

:03:23.:03:25.

Milly Dowler's phone is not disputed. The question before the

:03:26.:03:31.

jury is who knew? Rebekah Brooks was on holiday in Dubai, leaving Coulson

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in charge, when the News of the World published a story that came

:03:36.:03:39.

straight from Milly's voicemail, quoting verbatim a message that had

:03:40.:03:43.

been left on it. The jury were told there was a string of calls and

:03:44.:03:48.

messages between Brooks in Dubai and the editor's desk in London in the

:03:49.:03:52.

lead up to publication. Such was the intimacy of her relationship with

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Coulson, Edis said, Brooks simply must have known what was going on.

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And it wasn't just Coulson, Brooks, reporter Neville Thurlbeck, news

:04:12.:04:18.

editor Greg Miskiw and Glenn Mulcaire who allegedly knew about

:04:19.:04:23.

the hacking of Milly Dowler's voicemail. The paper's managing

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editor, Stuart Kuttner, also a defendant in the case, even told

:04:27.:04:30.

Surrey Police that the newspaper had Milly Dowler's voicemails. All of

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which was evidence of how senior figures at the News of the World

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were taking a very keen interest in the Milly Dowler story. Edis summed

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it up thus. These are very senior journalists on the News of the World

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who are pursuing this story and devoting time to it. We say in all

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the circumstances it is simply incredible that the editors did not

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know what was going on that week. Earlier it had been payments to

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private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire, amounting to more than

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?100,000 a year, and who now admits phone hacking, that Mr Edis focussed

:05:07.:05:11.

on the jury were told that Brooks, Coulson and Cutler kept a tight rein

:05:12.:05:18.

on spending at the News of the World, and personally signing off

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amounts as low as ?1,000. It was inconceivable that they didn't know

:05:24.:05:26.

the paper was paying Mullany so much money. Cutler had signed -- Kuttner

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had signed off payments to Glenn Mulcaire of over ?400,000, or that

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they didn't know what they were paying them for, which boiled down,

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to phone hacking. What

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Shh Edis also sought to persuade the jury Assenor he had -- as Senior

:05:53.:05:59.

editors they all routinely asked what he called "the editor's

:06:00.:06:03.

question", in other words, how do I know the story is true. The answer

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to which at the News of the World was all too often, phone hacking. On

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all three points, managing the money, overseeing the paper's

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journalism, and the very close relationship between Coulson and

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Brooks, Edis argued that it was inconceivable that they didn't know

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about and embrace the cripple flail practice of phone -- criminal

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practice of phone hacking. If yesterday's proceedings lacked

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drama, today's certainly didn't. Having had the details of their

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secret affair laid bare before the jury, Coulson and Brooks, sitting

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next to each other in the dock, then had to listen to prosecutor Edis

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running through how they had exposed others, namely fire brigades' union

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leader, Andy Gilchrist, and former Home Secretary, David Blunkett, for

:06:49.:06:51.

illicit affairs of their own, apparently on the basis of illegally

:06:52.:06:56.

hacked voice mails. There was a tangible sense in court and outside

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afterwards, of two Titans of tabloid journalism enduring some of what

:07:03.:07:07.

they often dished out to others. All the accused deny the charges. Coming

:07:08.:07:17.

up. At the end of the day Spotify helps record companies, big record

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companies and it helps investors. Emerging artists don't get a look

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in. Now just when you thought it was safe to go back into the City of

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London, several banks have become embroilled in an international probe

:07:32.:07:38.

into possible manipulation of the currency trading forex business. The

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justice investigators are investigating whether nine traders

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included with partners and other banks to rig rates. News of

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suspensions among bank staff tonight. We have been looking at it.

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What has been going on? The global foreign exchange market is really

:07:59.:08:02.

very big business. There are some staggeringly large numbers involved.

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Let's take a look at one of them. That is this one. $5. 3 trillion

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daily is trade around the world in dollars and all sorts of other

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currencies. Of that more than 40% is traded in London. That is the

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biggest centre for Foreign exchange. A really important story around this

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emerging over the last couple of weeks. Each day there is an

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important procedure, a rate setting, so that rates are set for benchmark,

:08:31.:08:33.

for pension funds and contracts and all that sort of thing. For example

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today one pound was set at $1. 60. That happens at 6.00pm in London.

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There is a 60 second window, and all the trades over that 60 seconds are

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compiled by an organisation called WM Reuters, it is the WM Reuters

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Fix. The investigations are around whether that setting could have in

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some way been manipulated. You are saying 40% of the business is

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conducted through London. Any names emerging? There are major banks,

:09:07.:09:10.

which have confirmed that actually they have been approached by

:09:11.:09:13.

regulators, or they have conducted their own investigations, you can

:09:14.:09:17.

see some of the names, including RBS and Barclays, as well as Deutsche

:09:18.:09:25.

Bank. And also Citigroup. Names have named, row Hann Ranjandani and

:09:26.:09:33.

others from JP Morgan on a sub-committee on foreign exchange

:09:34.:09:35.

dealing, they have been sent on leave by their employers, there is

:09:36.:09:39.

no suggestion at all they were involved in any wrongdoing, and also

:09:40.:09:46.

Matt Gardener. RBS has suspended two traders. If it turns out to be a

:09:47.:09:51.

major scandal, could it be as big as LIBOR? At the moment nobody is

:09:52.:09:54.

actually suggesting that any wrongdoing is taking place. It is a

:09:55.:09:57.

preliminary investigation. But I think it has the potential to be

:09:58.:10:02.

very significant indeed. Various e-mails and instant messaging data

:10:03.:10:07.

being looked at by regulators suggests there may have been

:10:08.:10:10.

activity up to August this year. That will shock other people if

:10:11.:10:14.

anything untoward has been proved. I'm joined by the research director

:10:15.:10:24.

at the on-line trading company forex.com. Are you surprised? Since

:10:25.:10:30.

2008 the regulatory landscape has changed so much, it has gone from

:10:31.:10:33.

the mortgage business to LIBOR, because the foreign exchange

:10:34.:10:36.

business is so huge it was in line for scrutiny. The make name for the

:10:37.:10:41.

foreign exchange business is the "wild west" because it isn't

:10:42.:10:44.

regulated like the others? It can sometimes get a bad press for that.

:10:45.:10:48.

But I think you have seen it with individual companies that might be

:10:49.:10:52.

on an exchange. Or maybe considered to be more highly regulated than the

:10:53.:10:57.

FX market and still things happen to them. Yes it is unregulated but that

:10:58.:11:01.

doesn't mean it is always working on its own. But if there have been

:11:02.:11:06.

problems with it, is it likely to emerge through big trades, small

:11:07.:11:10.

trade, I mean this minute window that Hugh was talking about, is it

:11:11.:11:14.

major currencies or lesser currencies? It is probably likely to

:11:15.:11:19.

be the major currencies, and in a second, in a matter of a few

:11:20.:11:25.

seconds, when you have a $5. 3 market you can push a lot of trades

:11:26.:11:29.

through in that time. It will be small increments that any changes

:11:30.:11:33.

were made if they can be detected. They are hard to detect I would

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imagine. The source suggests though that it is the smaller currencies

:11:38.:11:42.

not the bigger currencies? Sure. So it is the smaller currencies, in

:11:43.:11:46.

this case, if there is any wrongdoing, not that we think at the

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moment there is? They are the less liquid ones as well. Is it the case

:11:50.:11:54.

even if there is a major problem, coming on top of all the FREEF

:11:55.:11:58.

problems that the City of London is too big to fail? It is absolutely

:11:59.:12:04.

true, it is 40% of the whole market. We have a good reputation, but these

:12:05.:12:09.

continual regulatory probes they are chipping away at that. It was only a

:12:10.:12:15.

few months ago we signed up with China to trade for RNB and make

:12:16.:12:22.

London a trading hub. The problem is if George Osborne has signed up with

:12:23.:12:25.

the Chinese, then it is embarrassing so soon afterwards to announce an

:12:26.:12:30.

investigation? It is incredibly em-Bartsing, it is good that it is

:12:31.:12:35.

the FAC A and the UK has taken a lead on it, if we are staying the

:12:36.:12:40.

centre of the FX world we have to make sure we are managing and

:12:41.:12:43.

policing it well and being fair to both sides of the trade. Thank you

:12:44.:12:49.

very much indeed. The last desperate fart of a dying corpse, Thom Yorke

:12:50.:12:55.

on what some are talking up as the saviour of the record industry. The

:12:56.:13:00.

Radiohead front man might not be keen on Spotify, with six million

:13:01.:13:06.

paying customer, it can't match the might of the YouTube and iTunes, it

:13:07.:13:10.

is big in business. Whether it is a malign or benign influence is hotly

:13:11.:13:15.

debated. We have been asking what artists really get out of it. Is

:13:16.:13:22.

this the White Knight of the music industry? A way for people to gorge

:13:23.:13:26.

on as many tracks as they want, while giving record labels and

:13:27.:13:32.

artists a steady stream of income. Spotify lets users listen to music

:13:33.:13:38.

over the Internet for free. A paid subscription gives you mobile access

:13:39.:13:43.

and the ability to download individual tracks. The site is now

:13:44.:13:48.

passing millions of pounds to record labels each year. For many this and

:13:49.:13:51.

similar firms like Deezer and Napster are the future for an

:13:52.:13:54.

industry that once looked like it might topple over. Some people in

:13:55.:13:58.

the music industry, passionately believe that Spotify is eating into

:13:59.:14:03.

piracy, it is bringing more money into the industry and boosting

:14:04.:14:07.

artists' career. Other people believe that Spotify is drawing

:14:08.:14:10.

customers who spend a lot on buying music to a new model in which they

:14:11.:14:15.

are actually spending less. Cannibalising the existing healthy

:14:16.:14:19.

business model. Whichever of those is true will ultimately decide the

:14:20.:14:24.

music industry's fate in the future. The latest financial figures show

:14:25.:14:28.

how the site is growing. The firm's sales doubled last year to ?370

:14:29.:14:35.

million. It now has 24 million users in 32 different countries. The

:14:36.:14:39.

Spotify model is now being talked up as a key factor in the industry's

:14:40.:14:43.

fightback, in countries like Norway and Sweden, where the company was

:14:44.:14:48.

founded. Revenues there are now rising strongly, after a decade of

:14:49.:14:53.

slumping CD sales and soaring piracy. Spotify's top brass

:14:54.:15:01.

certainly talk the talk. At an industry event run by Virgin,

:15:02.:15:06.

Newsnight caught up with their unfeesably fashionable executive,

:15:07.:15:09.

keen to talk up his new business model. I think in new ideas at

:15:10.:15:14.

Spotify is a meritocracy, meaning we have a pool of revenue, we are

:15:15.:15:19.

paying back almost 70% to artists. If you have 1% of all the streams on

:15:20.:15:24.

Spotify, you will see 1% of the revenue paid back to rights holders.

:15:25.:15:28.

That is the exciting part for me. This pot will grow and grow and grow

:15:29.:15:31.

and your revenues increasing daily. If you look at traditional models it

:15:32.:15:36.

wasn't a pro-rat at that system, that is a new and exciting idea for

:15:37.:15:40.

me. So for such an industry success

:15:41.:15:47.

story, why does Spotify seem to be turning into a lightning rod for

:15:48.:15:58.

some very upset artistso a lightning rod for some very upset artists.

:15:59.:16:01.

Thom Yorke has pulled most of his solo material off Spotify in

:16:02.:16:06.

response to the rates they pay out. He called them the last fart of a

:16:07.:16:15.

dying corpse, and the reason for the relaxes of relationships between

:16:16.:16:20.

music labels and artists. You are seeing the music industry responding

:16:21.:16:25.

to technology and habits by new listeners. While his heart is in the

:16:26.:16:28.

right place, I would sit down with him and explain to him why his facts

:16:29.:16:32.

may be misinformed. Hasn't he got a point that because, to a certain

:16:33.:16:37.

extent, some of your shareholders, the major label, had you to do deals

:16:38.:16:41.

with the major labels that you are not forward looking but an

:16:42.:16:46.

electronic form of the industry as it exists 15, 20 years ago? I

:16:47.:16:50.

disagree, Radiohead had issues with iTunes when it came out, they had

:16:51.:16:54.

issues about breaking up the CD, there will always be qualms about

:16:55.:17:00.

change. Bands like the Beatle, AC/DC and Led Zeplin have long refused to

:17:01.:17:04.

put their music on streaming sites. And others, like last night's

:17:05.:17:12.

mercury nominees, Faols, are now speaking out. Irrespective of

:17:13.:17:14.

whether it brings people to your music or as a spin off you sell more

:17:15.:17:20.

ticket, the business model itself means you have music you have worked

:17:21.:17:24.

your heart out for you are paid what I deem to be an immoral amount. And

:17:25.:17:32.

that's it, that's just for me it is an inarguable fact the royalty rate

:17:33.:17:36.

musicians receive from Spotify is just not fair. Spotify pays artists,

:17:37.:17:42.

not directly, but through their music label or management company,

:17:43.:17:45.

that means different musicians can receive completely different

:17:46.:17:48.

amounts. Each time a user plays a track. Patterns are an up and coming

:17:49.:18:03.

Manchester band with just four songs so far available on Spotify. The

:18:04.:18:10.

lead singer said the site can be good for exposure, but once you try

:18:11.:18:14.

to earn proper money it becomes more difficult. We use streaming services

:18:15.:18:19.

like Sound Cloud and things like Band Camp, we think it is really

:18:20.:18:22.

important people listen to our music. What is different with

:18:23.:18:25.

Spotify is now you have these premium accounts where not only can

:18:26.:18:29.

people stream your music but take it away with them. What's the point for

:18:30.:18:34.

them to buy us on iTunes or any kind of MP 3. Here we have a spread sheet

:18:35.:18:39.

that shows all the streams to date that Patterns have received via

:18:40.:18:43.

Spotify. Crunching the numbers, the boss of the band's label say after

:18:44.:18:48.

two years and 150,000 plays on Spotify the four members have paid

:18:49.:18:52.

?65 each. That is after the label itself takes its ?50% share. For an

:18:53.:18:58.

indie label like us that equates to 00. 2p per stream on Spotify. The

:18:59.:19:07.

artist is getting 00. 1p per stream, that is not much at all. If you are

:19:08.:19:11.

an artist without a large audience and fan base, it is hard to do well

:19:12.:19:15.

on any service, whether iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, in my opinion it

:19:16.:19:19.

is pretty straight forward. You engage with your label, you are in a

:19:20.:19:22.

business relationship with your label. You are making a decision

:19:23.:19:26.

based upon an element of trust. You engage your label and get as much

:19:27.:19:28.

information as possible, you make sure you understand your situation,

:19:29.:19:32.

and you receive the payments that are deserved.

:19:33.:19:36.

After 14 years of upheaval and falling sales, it looks like the

:19:37.:19:40.

music industry is back on its feet. Spotify and services like it will

:19:41.:19:44.

probably continue to grow. They might, though, make more enemies

:19:45.:19:50.

along the way. Joining us now from Los Angeles is the mu six Moby who

:19:51.:19:56.

has told -- musician Moby who has sold 20 million albums worldwide.

:19:57.:20:01.

How are you, good evening. When you heard Faols talking last night at

:20:02.:20:05.

Mercury saying artists receive an immoral amount and the royalty rate

:20:06.:20:10.

is so poor, by and large, do you think he has a point? I think what

:20:11.:20:16.

the journalist was also talking about is it is hard to generalise, a

:20:17.:20:20.

lot of it has do with the artist relationship with the record

:20:21.:20:22.

company. Some artists are making more money from Spotify than others.

:20:23.:20:27.

It is hard to come up with a comprehensive generalised amoral or

:20:28.:20:31.

moral statement about the royalties people are receiving. The more

:20:32.:20:33.

powerful the band and the better deal they do with their record

:20:34.:20:37.

company, obviously, the better their rate will be when it comes to

:20:38.:20:41.

Spotify. You have gone a different road now, because your new album,

:20:42.:20:47.

The Innocence, you are issuing a download and streaming, is that the

:20:48.:20:51.

way of the future? Well, my, I don't know maybe I'm a simplen to, but my

:20:52.:20:59.

-- simpleton, my thoughts are musicians' main job is making music

:21:00.:21:02.

they love and other people love. You have to figure out how to pay the

:21:03.:21:07.

rent and be fiscally responsible, but the goal should really be

:21:08.:21:10.

focussing on the music. One of the things I love about the digital

:21:11.:21:13.

present we live in, with institutions like Spotify, or Sound

:21:14.:21:19.

Cloud or YouTube, it is almost like this democratic anarchy, it is very

:21:20.:21:23.

chaotic, you put music into the world and you have no idea how

:21:24.:21:26.

people will experience it or listen to it. I actually find that really

:21:27.:21:31.

compelling. I accept that argument, and funnily enough Lou Reed always

:21:32.:21:36.

said it didn't matter about the business it was the music. You can

:21:37.:21:40.

speak of the advantage of somebody who has sold 20 million albums world

:21:41.:21:46.

wild, the young band from Manchester said the people who win out are the

:21:47.:21:51.

label, if the artists are cutting deals where they might get 7% not

:21:52.:22:03.

70%ho win out are the label, if the artists are cutting deals where they

:22:04.:22:06.

might get 7% not 70%. The state of technology six months from now, a

:22:07.:22:09.

year from now, five years from now might make Spotify look very

:22:10.:22:11.

antiquated. Having too strong an opinion about streaming services

:22:12.:22:15.

like Spotify, you look it is kind of like having a strong opinion about

:22:16.:22:23.

Napster which barely exists now. I really feel like when I see people

:22:24.:22:27.

criticising the digital present we live. It kind of reminds me at old

:22:28.:22:32.

guys yelling at trains going too fast. There is nothing you can do

:22:33.:22:35.

about it. You talk about Napster which was a flash in the pan, do you

:22:36.:22:39.

think Spotify is only on the way to somewhere else, that this is a very

:22:40.:22:45.

shallow stepping stone? It is almost impossible to say. So many of us are

:22:46.:22:50.

accustomed to owning music. But yet there is answer tire new generation

:22:51.:22:55.

of people where it - an entire new generation of people who never owned

:22:56.:22:59.

music. It is a weird overlap between the two. People complaining about

:23:00.:23:01.

Spotify they are not complaining about the same music being played on

:23:02.:23:06.

the radio. Yet that same music is coming out of the same speakers, I

:23:07.:23:18.

don't the radio, I don't understand how people want different

:23:19.:23:22.

compensations for music coming out of different places. They are

:23:23.:23:26.

creating their own sense of music by whatever they are streaming and

:23:27.:23:28.

downloading, does that essentially mean the idea of a curated series

:23:29.:23:36.

and pieces of music like an album is essentially going to be an old man

:23:37.:23:41.

and old woman's tool? I'm speaking as an old man. I know! There is some

:23:42.:23:47.

bias. But I think that there is room for things to coexist. You can have,

:23:48.:23:52.

I look at the world of book publishing, and some things just

:23:53.:23:56.

show up on a digital e-read e you read it and throw away and don't

:23:57.:24:00.

think about it. If you really love a book maybe you want the hard cover

:24:01.:24:04.

version. A coffee table version of it. With music there might be some

:24:05.:24:08.

disposable pop songs you stream a few times and never think about,

:24:09.:24:12.

when your favourite band puts out a new album you might want to buy a

:24:13.:24:25.

version of it. What do you want to be, the five-time played popstar --

:24:26.:24:30.

what do you want to be, the five-time played popstar or the

:24:31.:24:36.

long-term artist? That is up to each artist, some people want the

:24:37.:24:39.

disposable popstar and other people want to make albums people will come

:24:40.:24:44.

back to 50 years hence. You put it out there that almost whoever is

:24:45.:24:49.

listening to it can curate changes and listen in their own way, is that

:24:50.:24:55.

a future? I did a thing with an organisation called BitTorn, we took

:24:56.:25:00.

individual tracks from my album, the drum, the vocals and bass and

:25:01.:25:05.

released them as multitracks where everyone can download it for free,

:25:06.:25:09.

remix it and do what they want with it. I love that democratic chaos.

:25:10.:25:14.

The fact that you put this music out into the world, once it leaves my

:25:15.:25:17.

hands I don't own it and I can't control it. I personally maybe there

:25:18.:25:21.

is something wrong with me, I love the lack of control I have over

:25:22.:25:25.

music once I put it out into the world. Great luxury. Thank you very

:25:26.:25:29.

much indeed Moby. Pleasure, thank you.

:25:30.:25:34.

Is there a quiet reproachment taking place on the political right. After

:25:35.:25:37.

the election David Cameron and George Osborne put clear water, an

:25:38.:25:41.

ocean even between the Tory leadership and much of the party's

:25:42.:25:43.

grassroots, and certainly the euro-sceptics. But was that distance

:25:44.:25:48.

to do with policies or the perceived extreme attitudes of those who

:25:49.:25:55.

expressed them. Swivel-eyed oon, the one who called for British jobs for

:25:56.:25:59.

British workers, a cap on immigration and no, no never to the

:26:00.:26:05.

euro. Are they the ones having the last laugh. Our reporter thinks so.

:26:06.:26:10.

Doesn't he feel faintly embarrassed that in five short years he has gone

:26:11.:26:20.

from "hug a husky" to "gas a badger "(voice of Ed Miliband) The only

:26:21.:26:24.

embarrassing thing is this tortured performance. (Voice of David

:26:25.:26:28.

Cameron. It is hard to get attention, we all lead busy lives,

:26:29.:26:35.

even I a political anorack has stopped watching Prime Minister's

:26:36.:26:39.

question times. Occasionally some interesting things happens, like

:26:40.:26:42.

last week. We need to roll back some of the green regulations and charges

:26:43.:26:47.

putting up bills. The man who promised the greenest Government

:26:48.:26:50.

ever, doesn't sound so green any more. The man who said he would stop

:26:51.:26:53.

banging on about Europe has had to bang on a bit about Europe. On

:26:54.:26:58.

immigration, welfare and tax, David Cameron has steadily moved to the

:26:59.:27:03.

right. Or has he? Some in the parliamentary Conservative Party

:27:04.:27:07.

don't see things in such simple terms. I don't really see it quite

:27:08.:27:10.

as right and left. What I think is really important is that we as a

:27:11.:27:15.

party don't know those distinctions but actually make a very common

:27:16.:27:19.

cause which is being on people's side. Works on the side of families

:27:20.:27:24.

and just being there for them. Changing our language, making sure

:27:25.:27:28.

that we are seen to be on the side of the consumer, not vested

:27:29.:27:31.

interest. I think we need an optimistic message, I think we need

:27:32.:27:35.

to be up for things that are out there in both globally and

:27:36.:27:42.

nationally. The right gets a bad press, grassroots Tory members were

:27:43.:27:50.

rag worms called "swivel-eyed loons", who are the sanest people in

:27:51.:27:53.

politics. Is it the people who supported the euro, or those on the

:27:54.:27:57.

right who always said it would cause the economic problems it has? What

:27:58.:28:01.

about the people who welcomed mass immigration into this country, or

:28:02.:28:04.

was it the right who calls said that immigration of the kind we saw would

:28:05.:28:09.

cause wages to fall and house prices to rise? Some people on the right of

:28:10.:28:14.

the Conservative Party are certainly feeling vindicated by the way events

:28:15.:28:19.

have moved on. I think it is fairly extraordinary on so many of the

:28:20.:28:23.

macro issues on, for example, the question of Europe, whether Britain

:28:24.:28:28.

should be part of the euro or whether we should have a referendum,

:28:29.:28:32.

on the way of immigration, on the question of welfare reform,

:28:33.:28:37.

positions that were once dismissed as beyond the pale, as the preserve

:28:38.:28:43.

of free market right-wingers like me, are increasingly mainstream.

:28:44.:28:50.

They are increasingly accepted as being sensible, normal and essential

:28:51.:28:54.

reform. The traditional right isn't perfect,

:28:55.:28:58.

it needs to learn from the people around David Cameron, the Cameroons,

:28:59.:29:02.

about the importance of public services and changing social

:29:03.:29:06.

attitudes. The Conservative Party has to become a broad centre right

:29:07.:29:09.

church again. Stretching from the centre to the traditional right. The

:29:10.:29:19.

party has to speak to Sun, Daily Mail and Times readers. It is what

:29:20.:29:23.

Margaret Thatcher did with her appeal to the housewives of the

:29:24.:29:27.

1970s. Can we have two pounds of the smaller ones.

:29:28.:29:30.

It is what John Major did in 1992 with his message of opportunity for

:29:31.:29:36.

all. Steak pie boiled. He offered red meat to voters in the form of a

:29:37.:29:41.

tax cut, but he also represented upwards mobility and classlessness.

:29:42.:29:48.

Party that didn't just listen to liberals' boom but also heard the

:29:49.:29:55.

roar of Middle England. My guests are with me now. You set

:29:56.:30:03.

out your case there, but never the Twain shall actually meet. David

:30:04.:30:08.

Cameron, it is the social attitudes that he perceives as much as he

:30:09.:30:14.

finds so difficult to deal with? That is absolutely true. But a lot

:30:15.:30:17.

of people I think when they are losing arguments start decribing

:30:18.:30:22.

people in negative pejorative terms. The writer described the

:30:23.:30:28.

"swivel-eyed loons" and nutcases and so on. I wanted to say in the film

:30:29.:30:34.

that the right have a problem because they can be caricatured in

:30:35.:30:38.

that way, but the impact of the welfare state on the poor or

:30:39.:30:42.

immigration on houses prices or Europe, the right has been

:30:43.:30:45.

vindicated and must be part of the Conservative coalition. Why do you

:30:46.:30:50.

think that David Cameron and the modernisers were so unwilling to

:30:51.:30:54.

listen in the early day, when of course they had not won an election

:30:55.:30:59.

but gone into a coalition. Why were they so unwilling to listen? We had

:31:00.:31:02.

reached a stage in this country where a lot of people were

:31:03.:31:08.

culturally inoculated towards ever voting Conservatives. People thought

:31:09.:31:13.

there was a nasty mean-spirited element of the party that simply

:31:14.:31:17.

wasn't reconciled with cultural demographic changes that had

:31:18.:31:20.

happened in Britain. There are two important things going on here.

:31:21.:31:24.

First of all I'm interested in the fact that Tim says the right has

:31:25.:31:27.

been vindicated about all the good things that happened. In the film

:31:28.:31:31.

and what you just said he didn't mention the single biggest thing

:31:32.:31:35.

that happened in the British economy in a generation which is the

:31:36.:31:38.

financial crisis. Just as many people on the left would say the

:31:39.:31:42.

left is vindicated, and Marxists would say this was a crisis in

:31:43.:31:46.

capitalism and what did the right say about that. If you go into that

:31:47.:31:49.

you have the situation where the left, Labour were never going to

:31:50.:31:53.

take us into the euro, were in favour of welfare reform, all these

:31:54.:31:57.

things. But the point surely is that David Cameron in a sense is as much

:31:58.:32:02.

as one end of the spectrum as he would say originally the right was

:32:03.:32:05.

at the other end of the spectrum. Who so moves? It will be David

:32:06.:32:10.

Cameron who moves? A dot of the problem, and you're exactly right to

:32:11.:32:14.

say that the Conservative Party had a big problems. David Cameron

:32:15.:32:17.

diagnosed it incorrectly from the beginning. He thought the

:32:18.:32:22.

Conservative Party was too right-wing, that was the bigger

:32:23.:32:26.

Yorks on all the issues we were discussing those issues are popular.

:32:27.:32:29.

The problem with the Conservative Party, and that is why John Major

:32:30.:32:33.

was so successful, they are not seen as the side of the people who are

:32:34.:32:38.

poor, on the side of the people affected by the financial crisis the

:32:39.:32:41.

low paid. It is that concern for the blue collar vote, that is when the

:32:42.:32:47.

Conservative Party dominates the poll. The problem that the

:32:48.:32:52.

Conservatives have had isn't, the reason they didn't win majority in

:32:53.:32:55.

2010 isn't because people thought David Cameron was secretly in love

:32:56.:32:59.

with the European Union or the Conservatives had a real affection

:33:00.:33:02.

for mass immigration. The situation you have got now isn't that people

:33:03.:33:04.

think David Cameron believes something that they don't believe,

:33:05.:33:07.

it is they don't think he believes in anything at all. That is

:33:08.:33:10.

something people in the Conservative Party also believe? The Conservative

:33:11.:33:16.

Party hasn't convinced that we understand how tough life for people

:33:17.:33:19.

is. They like our positions on Europe, crime and immigration, but

:33:20.:33:22.

who will look after us in tough times. That is the question they are

:33:23.:33:26.

worried about. Is it not the case to say many grassroots Tories don't

:33:27.:33:32.

care about same-sex marriage or women bishops in the Church of

:33:33.:33:35.

England, and annoyed about the delay in the married tax allowance. They

:33:36.:33:39.

see David Cameron as being of a completely different ilk and that

:33:40.:33:43.

they can't relate to, and he in a sense can't relate to them. I think

:33:44.:33:47.

the traditional right has stuff to learn from David Cameron on those

:33:48.:33:52.

issues. In 2050 Michael Howard says the way t party is going, we have

:33:53.:33:57.

tested this and we don't have the right model. It seems what you are

:33:58.:34:00.

saying is they don't have the right model to win majority. They still

:34:01.:34:04.

don't have the right model. The election to learn from is 1992, when

:34:05.:34:09.

John Major combined a pretty traditional Conservative recipe on

:34:10.:34:12.

tax cuts. Remember the tax bombshell campaign, a very Tory message. But

:34:13.:34:16.

people looked at him and thought that is the upwardly mobile

:34:17.:34:20.

classless Conservative Party I want to support. They don't see that at

:34:21.:34:23.

the moment. It is the combination of those da things that will transform

:34:24.:34:28.

the Conservative Party. In 1992 you didn't have UKIP. There is an

:34:29.:34:33.

important point here. You had the Referendum Party. The important

:34:34.:34:37.

point in your film you made the point that the Conservative Party

:34:38.:34:39.

has to reach out to people voting for UKIP, but there is an enormous

:34:40.:34:43.

danger that people will see that as the Conservative Party reaching out

:34:44.:34:48.

to UKIP itself. If there are Lib Dem strategists or Millennium Dome

:34:49.:34:53.

around Ed Miliband watching this -- or people around Ed Miliband

:34:54.:34:55.

watching this they will be praying for this. The right themselves are

:34:56.:35:00.

very divided? They are, and now David Cameron's biggest problem.

:35:01.:35:04.

Margaret Thatcher won elections in the 1980s because the right was

:35:05.:35:10.

united and the left divide. If it stays disunited will he win another

:35:11.:35:15.

election? It would be very hard, he must unite the right to win the next

:35:16.:35:19.

election. He's doing good things in that direction. It is finding issues

:35:20.:35:23.

that will appeal to the UKIP voter and the Lib Dem vote e which

:35:24.:35:27.

includes cost of living and other issues that aren't just the typical

:35:28.:35:35.

predictable issues. Chel le's presidential elections this year

:35:36.:35:38.

comes exactly 40 years after the military coup that brought General

:35:39.:35:44.

Pinochet to power. And the military dictatorship ruled for 17 years. As

:35:45.:35:49.

much as Chile wants to move on and forget the horrors of this that era.

:35:50.:35:53.

The shadows are present and amongst the presidential candidates

:35:54.:36:03.

themselves. The campaign is well under way, with two clear front

:36:04.:36:08.

runners emerging in the polls. Former President Michelle Bachelet

:36:09.:36:12.

of the Socialist Party, elected President eight years ago and served

:36:13.:36:17.

for four. And her main right-wing rival, Evelyn Matthei. That there

:36:18.:36:21.

are two women running for the top job in a Latin American country is

:36:22.:36:27.

extraordinary enough. The tale of friendship, betrayal and death

:36:28.:36:30.

behind the two of them, both daughters of general, brought up

:36:31.:36:34.

together in the same military base, , however, even stranger.

:36:35.:36:45.

But the story that links the two presidential candidates is a very

:36:46.:36:50.

real part of the most turbulent episode of Chile's 20th century

:36:51.:36:55.

history, that began here at the Presidential Palace 40 years ago.

:36:56.:37:06.

On September 1 th General Pinochet ordered the bombing of the palace,

:37:07.:37:09.

at the start of the coup that brought down the democratically

:37:10.:37:20.

elected Government and socialist president Allende, who died in the

:37:21.:37:24.

attack. Like most of the military, the then kern knell Fernando

:37:25.:37:32.

Matadores, father of Evelyn, supported General Pinochet. Before

:37:33.:37:36.

the coup the family were friends and neighbours of the Bachelet, but

:37:37.:37:42.

General Alberto Bachelet, here with his family, the young Michelle at

:37:43.:37:47.

the front, remained loyal to Allende. The era of terror began.

:37:48.:37:53.

Thousands of supporters of the legitimate Government were rounded

:37:54.:38:02.

up, imprisoned, tortured and killed. They are all now honoured at the

:38:03.:38:09.

Museum of Memory in Santiagon. I met with a fellow prisoner with Alberto

:38:10.:38:16.

Bachelet when he died of a heart attack in 1974. TRANSLATION: Finding

:38:17.:38:23.

himself striped of his medals and tortured and abused by his

:38:24.:38:28.

subordinates was a terrible psychological torture in itself.

:38:29.:38:31.

More painful than any physical abuse he suffered. They carried on, even

:38:32.:38:35.

though they knew he had already suffered two heart attacks. General

:38:36.:38:43.

Bachelet died of that torture? TRANSLATION: Absolutely. The for

:38:44.:38:51.

theure took place at this academy. Evelyn's father was put in charge

:38:52.:38:57.

here a month before Alberto Bacholet died. Today General Fernando Matti

:38:58.:39:05.

lives behind the gates here. He turned down the request for an

:39:06.:39:08.

interview and has denied any involvement in the for theure --

:39:09.:39:13.

torture and death of his friend, either by act or omission.

:39:14.:39:17.

TRANSLATION: The accusation against him is not for being the direct

:39:18.:39:23.

perpetrator of the murder of General Bacholet, but he was obliged under

:39:24.:39:27.

law to stop or report what was happening. This man is a legal

:39:28.:39:34.

adviser in the Allende Government, and has failed to get the General to

:39:35.:39:40.

court. He says the country's laws of immunity make it hard and this is a

:39:41.:39:46.

particular difficult case. TRANSLATION: If you take into the

:39:47.:39:53.

account that until there are two presidential candidates, the

:39:54.:39:56.

daughter of the General and the daughter of the victim, there is a

:39:57.:40:00.

whole political dynamic involved, which explains why judges refuse to

:40:01.:40:04.

enforce the law and indict. It is unfair, arbitary, but in Chile we

:40:05.:40:17.

are used to this kind of thing. Santiagon is littered with grim

:40:18.:40:22.

reminders of the past. This woman is the director of another former

:40:23.:40:27.

torture centre. Where, in the garden every rose represents a woman

:40:28.:40:32.

killed. She barely survived the torture, which involved beatings,

:40:33.:40:43.

electric shocks and more. TRANSLATION: There was a particular

:40:44.:40:47.

torture they used against women, like me, who refused to talk, which

:40:48.:40:54.

involved McVie lent sexual abuse -- violent sexual abuse, I was pregnant

:40:55.:40:58.

at the time and I lost my baby. They said the country did not need

:40:59.:41:04.

another baby of a Marxist. The buildings of the time have been

:41:05.:41:08.

destroyed, but they have built a model of the cell where she was held

:41:09.:41:12.

blindfolded for weeks at a time, with four others. Michelle Bachelet,

:41:13.:41:18.

then in her 20s was also held in one of these cells and tortured for her

:41:19.:41:26.

left-wing beliefs. Which brings us to another mystery in this story.

:41:27.:41:31.

The reluck tense of so many in Chile, including Michelle Bachelet

:41:32.:41:34.

herself to talk about what happened in the Pinochet years. Is it an

:41:35.:41:41.

advantage to your campaign that your main rival's father is being

:41:42.:41:45.

implicated in the death of yours? I have been speaking about this for

:41:46.:41:49.

some time, I think it is, I think it is the, I mean we believe that every

:41:50.:41:58.

candidate has their own history, my history is completely different from

:41:59.:42:06.

her history. And I hope that our citizens will make the best decision

:42:07.:42:11.

in terms of who is the person who can interpret better the Chilean

:42:12.:42:15.

needs. Would Evelyn Matthei say any more?

:42:16.:42:23.

(Speaks in Spanish) I asked her about the events of 40 years ago and

:42:24.:42:31.

in particular the case of General Bacholet and her father.

:42:32.:42:33.

TRANSLATION: I'm not going to answer questions on this topic, obviously

:42:34.:42:43.

angry. For the past 30 years widows like

:42:44.:42:50.

Gabriella have performed in public the solitary version of a national

:42:51.:42:53.

dance that is normally for a couple. To draw attention to Chile's over

:42:54.:43:03.

1,000 disappeared. TRON My partner was a political secretary in the

:43:04.:43:07.

Communist Party. They grabbed him off the street and held him in the

:43:08.:43:16.

prison. I thought they might arrest him, but I never thought they could

:43:17.:43:37.

make him disappear. Never. There is a monument for those who

:43:38.:43:41.

were killed but who have no grave, and grieving relatives are angry

:43:42.:43:45.

that there are members of the military around today who know where

:43:46.:43:51.

the bodies are. Some people have been in denial for

:43:52.:43:57.

40 years. The drama of this story of this nightmare is that many of them

:43:58.:44:02.

are still alive, and do have the information that they are not

:44:03.:44:10.

willing to give away and to speak. Michelle Bachelet is almost certain

:44:11.:44:14.

to win this election. Will she do something. TRANSLATION: I think she

:44:15.:44:20.

should, afterall she's part of this, she had family who died. Let's hope

:44:21.:44:24.

she does. The call for accountability comes

:44:25.:44:29.

not only from those who were alive at the time, but as I discovered,

:44:30.:44:33.

talking to a group of student, from the young as well. TRANSLATION: This

:44:34.:44:39.

year's elections are strongly connected with the events of the

:44:40.:44:45.

past. Matthei could be seen as the face of the military Government,

:44:46.:44:51.

where as Batchelet can be seen as the representative of Allende, it

:44:52.:44:57.

opens all the old wounds of supporters.

:44:58.:45:03.

Pinochet's office is now a museum, the general himself was arrested in

:45:04.:45:08.

London, but never brought to trial in Chile to face charges of torture

:45:09.:45:13.

and murder. Other senior military figures are in jail, but many more

:45:14.:45:18.

have not been tried for crimes even with Pinochet's own spokesman

:45:19.:45:26.

admits. TRANSLATION: The internal conflicts of a country are usually

:45:27.:45:31.

tremenduously cruel. And we try to avoid excesses all all times. But we

:45:32.:45:35.

had to fight the extremist movement, and in this kind of fight, you

:45:36.:45:41.

always make mistakes and commit atrocities and excesses. The odds

:45:42.:45:50.

are on Michelle Bachelet returning here as President, this time there

:45:51.:45:54.

will be a lot more pressure on her to tackle the Pinochet legacy.

:45:55.:46:01.

That's just about all for this Hallowe'en night. Be careful out

:46:02.:46:10.

there, good night. (Michael Jackson's thriller)

:46:11.:46:20.

# The foulest stench is in the air # The funk of 40,000 years

:46:21.:46:30.

# And grizzly ghouls from every tomb # Are closing in to seal your doom

:46:31.:46:36.

# And though you fight # To stay alive

:46:37.:46:42.

# Your body starts to shiver # For no mere mortal can resist

:46:43.:46:55.

# The evil of the Thriller (scary laughter)

:46:56.:47:03.

Further bouts of wet and windy weather will sweep across all areas

:47:04.:47:08.

over the next few day, the rain on Friday will eratically head its way

:47:09.:47:12.

north and eastwards across England and Wales. Where as for a good part

:47:13.:47:16.

of Scotland and Northern Ireland, the winds will be lighter than today

:47:17.:47:19.

and spells of sunshine. Maybe just one or two scattered showers,

:47:20.:47:24.

frequent showers in western Scotland where the wind will remain strong.

:47:25.:47:27.

For eastern and southern Scotland dry and bright with sunshine. Good

:47:28.:47:31.

to start off with sunshine over north-east England, the rain will

:47:32.:47:34.

trickle in here come the afternoon. It will be dull and damp for most of

:47:35.:47:39.

the day across the Midlands. Dryer spells across East Anglia and the

:47:40.:47:42.

south-east, here the rain could get quite heavy on Friday evening. And

:47:43.:47:46.

the wind will start to strengthen also along the south coast. It will

:47:47.:47:50.

be overcast with outbreaks of rain, for most of the day across

:47:51.:47:53.

south-west England and also a fairly wet day for Wales. As I said that

:47:54.:47:57.

rain could get heavy across the south-east on Friday evening before

:47:58.:48:02.

clearing away. Which will allow another batch of wet weather to

:48:03.:48:05.

sweep across areas on Saturday. It will also be accompanied by strong

:48:06.:48:10.

and gusty winds. Sunshine developing later on Saturday, but only once we

:48:11.:48:14.

have got rid of the heavy downpour, which will sweep in it looks like

:48:15.:48:19.

from the Atlantic, a dry start on the east the rain will soon come and

:48:20.:48:23.

accompanied by the wind, getting stronger and

:48:24.:48:24.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark, including the latest revelations in the phone hacking trial, music streaming service Spotify on its relationship with musicians, and Chile's presidential elections.


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