04/11/2013 Newsnight


04/11/2013

With Kirsty Wark. Payday loans, the latest on the phone hacking trial, face scanning at the supermarket and the scientist who says LSD is safer than tobacco.


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Britain's most controversial business, Wonga, the payday loan

:00:00.:00:08.

company, they have become a byword for easy money at crippling interest

:00:09.:00:13.

rates. They don't like it. The idea we charge thousands of per cent

:00:14.:00:21.

interest is a myth. Their Chief Operating Officer is here to explain

:00:22.:00:27.

why all the negative press is wrong. And this. The radical feminist

:00:28.:00:32.

group, Femen coming to a protest near you. First the clubcard, now

:00:33.:00:39.

Tesco has a face-scanner, it will check your sex and age range to give

:00:40.:00:44.

you tailor-made adverts. Innocuous check your sex and age range to give

:00:45.:01:07.

profits out of people's financial pain is the accusation. But now one

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of the most prominent, Wonga, are on a charm offensive. Tomorrow they

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launch a Wonga-made movie featuring ten happy customers for whom fast

:01:18.:01:22.

money, they say, has been the answer to their prayers. I will speak to

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senior Wonga executive after this. I love cutting children's hair, they

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enjoy having their haircut in nursery... They are the voices of

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Wonga, according to none other than Wonga. Tomorrow the company will

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release a film imaginatively titled, Wonga the Movie, they feature people

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who have taken out loans and repaid them. We have been together three

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years, last year I asked her to marry me. My

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years, last year I asked her to out of money on a Friday night all

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you need is a smartphone and it can be in your account in five minutes.

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That allows some to dig themselves deeper into debt. You see them

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advertising, so easy to get. You go on-line and state how much you want.

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You don't notice how much interest you are paying back. I think the

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interest rate should definitely be capped. It is an awful lot of money

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they ask you for. Wonga's transparency makes it easy prey to

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seizing on to the high interest rates. It is as much as 1,000%.

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Wonga say customers don't pay that, they will by 1% day or 365% a year.

:02:55.:03:01.

All too tempting say critics for under-18s. They all claim to lend to

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them and Wonga say they are not like the other payday lenders, they need

:03:06.:03:08.

to come clean the other payday lenders, they need

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out of control. A million customers want this instant credit because

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they can't get it from bank. Wonga says eight out of ten applicants for

:03:34.:03:37.

a first loan are turned down. It is a question of whether the movie will

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be enough to outshout the crickets. Joining me now is the Chief

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Operating Officer of Wonga. First of all, did you realise your

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image was so bad you had to make your own movie? Today we are

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announcing a movie called 12 Portraits, and the director is

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trying to dispel some of the that our image, that you refer to, has

:04:05.:04:09.

out there in the UK. I think if you look at the movie, what you will see

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is a representation of our customer base, 12 portraits, in fact,

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representing a million active customers, you can make up your own

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representing a million active was paid their money back on term

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quickly. That is not the case for your customers? Gary first of all

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had complete editorial independence over what he made. Chose the

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customers himself. We gave him a database, selected them. We have a

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million active customers. Can I just take you back on that, free hand, he

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who pays the piper plays the tune, that is first of all, if Gary Tarn

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had produced a film that showed somebody defaulting on their Wonga

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loan having perhaps to pay 375% credit, getting another loan to pay

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off a Wonga loan, destitute on the Pavement, would you be happy for

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that to be on the film? There are 12 portraits and one has defaulted. If

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you look at interest on fees on our site on Wonga, included with one of

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those is site on Wonga, included with one of

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the voice of the silent majority, the people who use the service is

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not being heard. The trouble is if you present too rosy a picture it

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Encourages people to take out that loan. This is Liz Matthew this is

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what happened to her. I got into a vicious cycle where I had four loans

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and couldn't pay any of them back. How much was the original loan? The

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original was ?300 and I owe now ?2,000. I was very frightened and

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worried thinking how can I pay it back. You can't sleep at night. Now,

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Liz Matthews she had a first Wonga loan and a second one. What were the

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affordability checks. You say you do them but she got herself into

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terrible trouble? I can't comment them but she got herself into

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second was ?400 and then she got into trouble. The thing is with Liz

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Matthews you don't require any documents as proof of what they say

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is true?. We look at 8,000 thesis -- pieces of data. We look at how they

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navigate up to the website, if they slide up to the right they may not

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pay us back. Is it an on-line service? It is. That check can be

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made quickly. In five minutes? We mustn't confuse speed with accuracy.

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I was going to say the thing about Liz Matthews, I spoke to her today

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and she admitted to me that she had put down that she was employed on

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both occasions. And she wasn't employed. OK. So therefore she

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received money You have no way of checking that? We

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have a lot of ways of checking that Kirsty. Not with her? Liz may be a

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case that I don't right now have the details in front of me. What we're

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here to talk about is that there are a million customers of whom the

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vast, vast majority are happy, and their voice has not been heard. And

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they are being misrepresented as people who are like Liz as all poor

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and vulnerable and getting themselves into a spiral of debt.

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That is simply not true. It is the case that about seven. 5% either

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have rollovers that cost a lot of money -- 75% either have rollovers

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that cost them a lot of money. Those people are often desperate and will

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say things to get money when they can ill-afford to pay it back? I

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would not agree they are desperate. The reason I'm actually here and

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sitting here and made that film is because I

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sitting here and made that film is and hops of thousands of others, the

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second thing I'm surprised about is the reaction of the media and other

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commentators calling out the exceptions like Liz and assuming

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everyone is like that. When we talk about seven. 5% rollovers and

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defaults that is substantial. Are you confident that customers know

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exactly the consequences of taking out a Wonga loan? I'm very confident

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that we show everything as clearly and transparently as we possibly

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can. The price is marked very clearly on the sliders, the terms

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under which people borrow from us are marked very, very clearly. The

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fact that 90% of customers would recommend us to a friend is evidence

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they agree with us. Talking about the implication, I want you to

:10:09.:10:10.

explain this, this the implication, I want you to

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months, lenders will immediately automatically reject the

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application, or ask lots of questions about why that person can

:10:31.:10:32.

afford a mortgage now when they were clearly living from hand-to-mouth

:10:33.:10:34.

recently. In order to address that problem, because people don't

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appreciate the issues, I think it would be very sensible if payday

:10:37.:10:40.

loan lenders were required by the regulator to state on all their

:10:41.:10:45.

literature that taking out a payday loan may prejudice your ability to

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get a mortgage. That is a senior mortgage broker. And even if your

:10:49.:10:58.

customers are happy and pay back, the very issue of taking out a Wonga

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loan may impact on your ability to get a good mortgage? I can't comment

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on other financial institutions' policies, the regulator will decide

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if that is a right response. He's a senior mortgage broker, he will say

:11:17.:11:19.

in terms of credit rating if you wake a Wonga loan you

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in terms of credit rating if you with this, it is about transparency,

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you claim that Wonga is transparent. It is a fact that if you take out a

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loan from a payday loan company, when you go to put your mortgage

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application in, and goodness me Help To Buy is tough enough, that it may

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impact on your ability to get a good mortgage. It would be very simple to

:11:57.:12:00.

put that rider on your website, why don't you do it? Because, as I have

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explained, I don't know that is the policy of every single financial

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institution, as your colleague there says, or as your interviewee says,

:12:09.:12:14.

if the regulator thinks that is an appropriate thing to do they will do

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that. We are going through with the FT reviewing our business and the

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FCA the same. I'm sure they will tighten up practices across the

:12:23.:12:25.

whole of the industry and deal with those things as necessary. This is

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interesting, the regulator is looking at you, we say you

:12:30.:12:47.

interesting, the regulator is there, that we could do or others

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could do depending on their opinion. What we see is there is a huge

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Misper exception over the myths about Wonga out there. We are trying

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to show that actually that silent majority of people who haven't been

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heard and commentators who haven't taken and borrowed money for a week

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or ten days, are making commentary about our customers, we think that

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is very unfair. That is not commentary about your customer, what

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this mortgage broker is saying the evidence of having payday loan could

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impact on the chances of getting a decent mortgage. If you go and check

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that tomorrow, and that proves to be true, put it on your website now?

:13:30.:13:34.

Kirsty, as I said, two or three times now, I don't know what the

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financial institutions' policies are. Will you find out

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financial institutions' policies about mis s about -- miss

:13:59.:14:04.

Perceptions about customer, it may affect something in their future

:14:05.:14:08.

life and they are poor and vulnerable, the evidence I see is it

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is not the case in the majority of cases. We have looked at our

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customer base and invited a vulnerable person to exam that. I'm

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not suggesting that vulnerable people should be told that it might

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be difficult to get a good mortgage, I'm saying that anybody who takes

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out a payday loan, who rents a wonderful house and may have to buy

:14:32.:14:37.

may be impacted by a payday loan. Not people who are destitute, people

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looking for a mortgage. If it is the case if you check what that

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gentleman says tomorrow morning and find it to be true, in the pursuit

:14:47.:14:49.

of transpornly will you put it on find it to be true, in the pursuit

:14:50.:15:09.

for 17 days, it is not exactly a very long period of time. If they

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don't pay that back, of course that may impact their underlying credit

:15:14.:15:18.

rating. And what we think is... Even if they pay it back it will impact,

:15:19.:15:22.

that is what I'm saying. This was a senior Kensington mortgage brokers,

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a senior figure in the industry saying it is not whether you pay it

:15:29.:15:32.

back on time it is the fact they had payday loan? I ups that, there are

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many other commentaries on our business, such the price you

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referred to in the introduction, which are myths. We want people to

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understand that we are sharing all of our statistics and have a look at

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the film, our product is fair and transparent, and those customers are

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intelligent people, who in my opinion represent the average person

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in the UK. opinion represent the average person

:16:00.:16:19.

is the maxim that Andy Coulson is conducting his defence case. While

:16:20.:16:24.

his co-defendants chose to remain silent as the prosecution finished

:16:25.:16:28.

outlining his case. Coulson instructed counsel to deliver an

:16:29.:16:31.

opening statement, insisting he was never part of an agreement to hack

:16:32.:16:36.

phones, no matter what others were doing on his watch at the News of

:16:37.:16:40.

the World. This report contains flash photography.

:16:41.:16:45.

If the paper he had once edited was still around to report Coulson's

:16:46.:16:50.

trial, it might have come up with a headline like this. This wasn't Andy

:16:51.:16:55.

Coulson in the centre but his council, Timothy Langdale, who broke

:16:56.:16:58.

with normal procedure and made a speech to the jury, before the

:16:59.:17:01.

prosecution had even presented its case. Mr Langer Langdale said he was

:17:02.:17:10.

Far from being complicit in phone because he wanted to

:17:11.:17:35.

Far from being complicit in phone hacking, Mr Langdale told the jury

:17:36.:17:44.

that Andy Coulson had had his phone hacked by the private investigator,

:17:45.:17:45.

Glenn Mulcaire. As for the evidence so far suggested

:17:46.:18:05.

by the prosecution that Andy Coulson must have known what his reporters

:18:06.:18:12.

were allegedly up to. It was said that as editor he faced a blizzard

:18:13.:18:17.

of e-mails and couldn't possibly know the source for every story

:18:18.:18:21.

appearing in the news of the world. In any sense,

:18:22.:18:38.

appearing in the news of the world. evidence, Andy Coulson said that

:18:39.:18:43.

anyone at the News of the World had deleted the message. Something the

:18:44.:18:47.

prosecution has already agreed. There was talk about Prax Blackhawk,

:18:48.:18:51.

the alleged conspiracy between Rebekah Brooks and Charley Brook and

:18:52.:19:01.

Mark Hanna, to conspire to hide information from the police.

:19:02.:19:08.

Andy Coulson told the police that Rebekah Brooks would be next and if

:19:09.:19:12.

she was arrested they would have powers to search her houses. On the

:19:13.:19:17.

day that Rebekah Brooks was arrested the police were told staff who were

:19:18.:19:23.

working for her removed a back from her Oxfordshire home and taken to a

:19:24.:19:28.

London home. As the bag was dropped, a member of her security staff

:19:29.:19:29.

texted a colleague It was alleged today that Mrs Brooks

:19:30.:20:01.

instructed her PA, Cheryl Carter, to remove seven boxes of Mrs Brooks's

:20:02.:20:06.

notebooks from the News International archive. The notebooks

:20:07.:20:11.

have never been seen again. All the defendants deny the charges, the

:20:12.:20:14.

prosecution continues with its case tomorrow. The feminist protest

:20:15.:20:21.

group, Femen, founded in Ukraine and head quartered in France where it

:20:22.:20:25.

has its largest membership has announced it is setting up in

:20:26.:20:31.

Britain. The movement's trade mark is the topless ambush, protests

:20:32.:20:38.

against dictatorships and religion, they have a record of high-profile

:20:39.:20:40.

actions, including they have a record of high-profile

:20:41.:21:00.

it becomes a strength. Our body becomes our weapon. It is a naked

:21:01.:21:10.

warrior. They call themselves sex-tremists, they rage against

:21:11.:21:15.

patriarchy, religion, homophobia and authoritarianism. They are offensive

:21:16.:21:19.

wherever they go. Femen have upset Christians, Muslims and models. But

:21:20.:21:29.

not Vladimir Putin! They say it is war. It looks like theatre. So where

:21:30.:21:35.

better for Femen to base themselves than France. The home of street

:21:36.:21:41.

protest, revolution and a topless lady liberty. I have come to Femen's

:21:42.:21:48.

European headquarters here in Paris, it is also where they have their

:21:49.:21:50.

boot camp. Where they train up their it is also where they have their

:21:51.:22:10.

morally. Definitely you can't do such actions like we do, attacking

:22:11.:22:16.

Putin or climbing up on the top of a building in Davos on the economic

:22:17.:22:20.

forum where all the leaders of the Government are inside, you have to

:22:21.:22:26.

be well prepared. Inna Shevchenko is Femen's leader. She fled Kiev after

:22:27.:22:36.

taking a chainsaw to a crucifix, she said it was in support of Pussy

:22:37.:22:43.

Riot's protest against the Russian Orthodox Church. It won her many

:22:44.:22:48.

enemies, it had been a cross in memory of some of Stalin's victims.

:22:49.:22:54.

In France she has been given asylum from arrest. Femen say they are

:22:55.:23:00.

redefining nudity, breasts will not hear our slogans.

:23:01.:23:25.

In this exercise they are role playing a confrontation with the

:23:26.:23:29.

police, Femen are now fighting in nine countries. Gisela Perez is from

:23:30.:23:37.

Mexico. When I say naked war, when I tell my Government that they are

:23:38.:23:41.

dictator, when I tell them that I do not agree with them I stop becoming,

:23:42.:23:50.

I have a political will, that we go to prison for that.

:23:51.:23:55.

So where does Femen fit into the story of feminism. They are hardly

:23:56.:24:05.

the first feminists to be vilified. Mary Wolstencrft was called a high

:24:06.:24:11.

Ena, Mary Wolstencrft was called a high

:24:12.:24:30.

everything that has gone before. We are continuing something other women

:24:31.:24:36.

started before. What doesn't help is the revelation that Femen was set up

:24:37.:24:42.

by a man. The accusation is there are man's fantasy of what feminism

:24:43.:24:47.

should look like. When Femen bare their breasts are they really

:24:48.:24:51.

challenging the system or conforming to it? They say they are against the

:24:52.:24:56.

sexualisation and objectcation of women, but when they take their tops

:24:57.:25:00.

off, a lot of people look at them and think they look like sex objects

:25:01.:25:04.

and they have become the stereotype. Do you want to look sexy? Exactly,

:25:05.:25:11.

we are using what they made us and we're turning it against them. If

:25:12.:25:19.

you want I could say that Femen activists are like forcing Barbie to

:25:20.:25:21.

fight. Our Barbie "lock you lock you what"? Femen have

:25:22.:25:41.

tried to alie themselves with the women of the Arab Spring, but many

:25:42.:25:47.

think they are Islam phobic. Do you worry that you cause distress and

:25:48.:25:51.

people are alarmed at what you do? This is also the aim of activism. It

:25:52.:25:57.

is to make people react and realise things. To create a sparkle in

:25:58.:26:02.

people's minds. We are not against Islam specifically, we are against

:26:03.:26:09.

all religions, all the institutions. But can these arguments ever get

:26:10.:26:15.

through? When their tactics are so uncompromising, is anyone listening

:26:16.:26:20.

above the shouting? When I'm waking up a spend two to read some news,

:26:21.:26:28.

and I read and I check what happened during the last 24 hours, maybe 60%

:26:29.:26:31.

of all that during the last 24 hours, maybe 60%

:26:32.:26:52.

I think that's enough to ask why we do what we do. Femen are now

:26:53.:26:58.

recruiting in the UK, they haven't ruled out breaking into Buckingham

:26:59.:27:00.

Palace, and yes, taking their tops off in front of the Queen.

:27:01.:27:08.

The founder of a new tracking device has described it like the sci-fi

:27:09.:27:14.

movie Minority Report in which Tom Cruise's eyes are screened and

:27:15.:27:17.

advertising is tailored to his profile. That film was out in 2002

:27:18.:27:23.

and the future is here. At least on 450 Tesco petrol forecourts, soon as

:27:24.:27:30.

you wait at the till your face will be scanned for genteder and age, and

:27:31.:27:35.

hey presto different ads will appear depending on your data. What if you

:27:36.:27:40.

think it is one more invasion of your privacy and you have to stick

:27:41.:27:59.

think it is one more invasion of scanners which recognise his

:28:00.:28:04.

features. Now that technology is all but here. As our frame-by-frame

:28:05.:28:07.

homage makes clear. Now we're all about consumer

:28:08.:28:23.

technology on this programme, goodness knows, and yet, there are

:28:24.:28:27.

grounds for scepticism, the idea that this scanner could look into my

:28:28.:28:32.

eyes and say anything conclusive at all, based on my weekly shop of Pot

:28:33.:28:40.

Noodles and alco-pop, it is a bit far fetched. But is it though. These

:28:41.:28:49.

shoppers are profiled, divided by gender and into age groups. One

:28:50.:28:51.

major gender and into age groups. One

:28:52.:29:11.

information you put out there. Advertisers will want to use that.

:29:12.:29:14.

It is out there for them to play with. In France they are already

:29:15.:29:20.

exploiting the information we put out there. Monitors read your store

:29:21.:29:26.

loyalty cards, this triggers localised advertising, personalised

:29:27.:29:31.

messages, instantly sent to hoardings as you pass them. It is

:29:32.:29:36.

only a trial so far. Does that sound irritating to you, even the people

:29:37.:29:45.

behind it think so. Maybe you buy milk and we can identify if you need

:29:46.:29:48.

milk. It is really annoying, but it is the

:29:49.:29:51.

future, and you can't miss this. It is really annoying, but it is the

:29:52.:30:20.

consumers want and will put up with. More people said they would stop

:30:21.:30:24.

transacting or doing business with a company if they thought it was

:30:25.:30:27.

harvesting their data without their permission and selling it on to

:30:28.:30:30.

other third parties. They put that ahead of things like environmental

:30:31.:30:35.

damage or huge fat cat salaries. So it cull is something that makes

:30:36.:30:39.

people very anxious. Again I think it is because this sort of sense of

:30:40.:30:45.

things being done behind my back, with my information that really

:30:46.:30:57.

upsets people. Any other objections? Form an orderly queue. It is when we

:30:58.:31:02.

think personal relationships turn into state power relationships. We

:31:03.:31:07.

have a really serious problem. It has already happened in a number of

:31:08.:31:10.

countries with mobile data. The Government in this

:31:11.:31:29.

retailers and others rely on us not noticing or shrugging and looking

:31:30.:31:32.

the other way. In the supermarket of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

:31:33.:31:42.

I'm joined now by the man behind Tesco Crabcard, he runs -- Tesco

:31:43.:31:51.

Clubcard, he runs a company that brings better information to

:31:52.:31:56.

advertisers. We will come on to social media in a little while.

:31:57.:32:00.

Let's deal with the forecourt issue. It is simply on the question of one

:32:01.:32:04.

of three age brackets and gender, what is the problem? It teaters on

:32:05.:32:10.

the brink of unethical. The issue is do you want this to happen to you?

:32:11.:32:15.

And have you given your permission for that to happen to you? Your

:32:16.:32:20.

personal image is personal information, it is being

:32:21.:32:39.

personal image is personal think it would be possible, if I'm

:32:40.:32:43.

approaching the till in Tescos and I don't want that to happen I have the

:32:44.:32:47.

right to say please switch that off? Yes, ideally you would have the

:32:48.:32:50.

right to say that in advance. Before you even get there? How will it

:32:51.:32:58.

actually work? We had in-store television five years ago.

:32:59.:33:01.

Interestingly customers didn't like it and we turned it off. You don't

:33:02.:33:10.

work for Tesco's now? No. I think Anna is right it is about consent.

:33:11.:33:14.

You don't approve of this? I'm not saying that, I don't think it has

:33:15.:33:17.

been thought through fully in terms of actually thinking what customers

:33:18.:33:21.

want rather than what you can do. Technology enables so many things to

:33:22.:33:25.

be done, just because you can do it, should you do it? The idea of

:33:26.:33:29.

targeting advertising at the petrol pump based on the make of car you

:33:30.:33:31.

turn up in, for pump based on the make of car you

:33:32.:33:51.

is not. Absolutely not. You can from the face you give your credit card

:33:52.:33:54.

to that till, you have a number plate in the car, you can profile

:33:55.:34:00.

that person exactly. Three pieces of information can tell a lot about

:34:01.:34:03.

that person. And it is not acceptable and it is completely out

:34:04.:34:08.

of proportion. Let's look at on-line now then and using social media

:34:09.:34:15.

better to tailor your interest in certain goods. This is very much

:34:16.:34:19.

Clive's territory. Do you approve of that? Well personally I don't

:34:20.:34:23.

approve of that. I think if people say yes, you can do that to me,

:34:24.:34:29.

that's fine. The problem is that profiling is a default option.

:34:30.:34:36.

People are profiled unless they opt out. They usually don't. It is

:34:37.:34:41.

normal behaviour. You use Twitter data, would people

:34:42.:34:42.

normal behaviour. You use Twitter is your choice. You bare your soul,

:34:43.:35:01.

you have to be prepared to give up everything? You don't have to give

:35:02.:35:04.

up everything at all. You can choose if you wish to not opt in, you can

:35:05.:35:08.

choose if you want to, it is a consent-based model. I think it is

:35:09.:35:12.

about the consumer having control. It always has been. They are the

:35:13.:35:16.

successful businesses. The problem is we don't have control, there is a

:35:17.:35:21.

lot of evidence that we do not have it. People are getting profiled

:35:22.:35:26.

without knowing what's happening to them. They are at the moment, of

:35:27.:35:32.

course? How do you, you presumably do have a mobile phone. I do. Your

:35:33.:35:39.

phone company knows where you are at any moment in time, will that be the

:35:40.:35:43.

find of information to second guess what you are going to do and what

:35:44.:35:50.

you might buy next? Geolocation data is very sensitive data. The

:35:51.:35:51.

companies that have not selling your perm data, they are

:35:52.:36:12.

selling aggregate statistics to help the retailers understand the foot

:36:13.:36:18.

fall. In ten years time you will identify somebody, the Iris and the

:36:19.:36:21.

passport, identifying someone on the street with a camera? You could do

:36:22.:36:27.

that today, and the question is are you responsible. That is the asset

:36:28.:36:32.

test. I think the legislation we have is far behind what technology

:36:33.:36:36.

can do. Thank you very much indeed. The leading British scientist, was

:36:37.:36:42.

ejected from his job as chairman of the Government's advisory council on

:36:43.:36:47.

the Ms. Use of drugs four years ago has been warned an international

:36:48.:36:51.

prize for standing up for science. It is given by nature -- Nature

:36:52.:37:01.

Magazine, for standing up in the face of hostility and

:37:02.:37:19.

Magazine, for standing up in the gained the prize, this is our

:37:20.:37:23.

science editor first. When science meets politics it can be a classic

:37:24.:37:28.

clash of culture, how the Government deals with legal highs has been one

:37:29.:37:32.

such flash point since the summer. When the Government announced a ban

:37:33.:37:39.

on the herbal stimulate Cat, against scientific advice.

:37:40.:37:42.

In the past politicians have traditionally turned to science most

:37:43.:37:47.

especially in times of war. Though it was Winston Churchill who

:37:48.:37:53.

famously said scientific advisers should be on tap not on top. Many

:37:54.:37:57.

scientists believe that going along with that view would be too meek and

:37:58.:38:02.

science advice is more than setting out the spectrum of views, but

:38:03.:38:05.

making sure that policy is based on the best balance of evidence. Not

:38:06.:38:11.

just in war but across a whole range of pressing and

:38:12.:38:30.

to climate change. Professor David Nutt was made chairman of the

:38:31.:38:34.

advisory council on the misuse of drugs, he had a number of run-ins

:38:35.:38:42.

with politicians, and in 2009 he compared using ecstacy with horse

:38:43.:38:47.

riding, he was then sacked by the Home Secretary Alan Johnson, after

:38:48.:38:49.

saying Government classification of cannabis was at odds with scientific

:38:50.:38:57.

measures of actual harm. Professor Colin Blakemore was one of the

:38:58.:39:01.

judges for today's award and has worked with Professor Nutt in the

:39:02.:39:06.

past. He said the whole fair had lasting impact, a set of principles

:39:07.:39:10.

on the way scientific advice should be troted. Science underpins

:39:11.:39:14.

everything we do, increasingly so. Everything from what you mobile

:39:15.:39:17.

phone you choose to whether we are going to tackle global warming.

:39:18.:39:21.

Increasingly the going to tackle global warming.

:39:22.:39:41.

important is that the clarity of high-quality scientific advice is

:39:42.:39:45.

available to everybody. This woman advising Alan Johnson at

:39:46.:39:53.

the Home Office at the time of the David Nutt row. He thinks Churchill

:39:54.:39:59.

got it right? Scientists have a high regard for themselves and those on

:40:00.:40:02.

Government committees have higher regard for themselves. Our

:40:03.:40:05.

experience under the last Labour Government was give the advice by

:40:06.:40:08.

all means, but don't think because you have given the advice that

:40:09.:40:12.

Government has to accept it. And if Government doesn't accept it for

:40:13.:40:15.

whatever reason, that doesn't mean it is a challenge to your authority.

:40:16.:40:19.

It doesn't mean you are undermined, all it means is thanks for what you

:40:20.:40:23.

have advised but in this case no thanks. But many Government advisers

:40:24.:40:27.

feel their first duty is to speak out to the tax-payers whose cash

:40:28.:40:31.

often funds scientific research, not the politician

:40:32.:40:49.

often funds scientific research, not you sacked? I do, since then I have

:40:50.:40:51.

realised there is greater problems as a result of some of the failure

:40:52.:40:56.

to be logical about drugs. Particularly it has been clear in

:40:57.:40:59.

the last few years how medical research is impeded by the drug

:41:00.:41:03.

laws. The laws we put in place to stop people using drugs are stopping

:41:04.:41:07.

scientists using drugs and developing new treatments. Would you

:41:08.:41:10.

say it in the same way as you said in 2009 or would you be judicious.

:41:11.:41:18.

We haven't moved on, I think I would be more forthright. We have mored

:41:19.:41:25.

backwards -- moved backwards. Do you accept that there has to be a

:41:26.:41:29.

calibration by politics in terms of what you say, they have to take into

:41:30.:41:33.

t Times of drug abuse and the politics essentially? I would say if

:41:34.:41:40.

you have good scientific evidence and a policy is not working

:41:41.:41:59.

you have good scientific evidence harmful than LSD, would you

:42:00.:42:03.

decriminalise it? I'm not about that, it is about a more equal

:42:04.:42:07.

playing field to the drugs we suffer from, alcohol and tobacco. You

:42:08.:42:13.

wouldn't decriminalise Dan business? I certainly would. What about

:42:14.:42:18.

ecstacy? Any drugs less harmful than alcohol should be decriminalised. So

:42:19.:42:24.

LSD? I would decriminalise it, as well. I don't think that

:42:25.:42:29.

criminalising people using drugs is any use at all. As we have seen from

:42:30.:42:36.

other countries where we have seen benefits decriminalisation. The

:42:37.:42:41.

herbal CAT is a controversial one? The banning of Cat is a ridiculous

:42:42.:42:49.

one. It does terrible damage? It does no damage. We only banned it

:42:50.:42:51.

because the Americans have does no damage. We only banned it

:42:52.:43:09.

pricing, the way that they treat alcohol, what has gone wrong? They

:43:10.:43:15.

just basically lost courage at the last minute. They started off making

:43:16.:43:18.

the right statement, minimum pricing, it will work and reduce

:43:19.:43:22.

harms to particularly heavy users and then probably due to pressure

:43:23.:43:27.

from the drinks industry they backed off. Do you think that will have

:43:28.:43:31.

long-term damage? Of course it will, alcohol is the leading cause of

:43:32.:43:35.

death in men in this country between t ages of 16-54, minimum pricing

:43:36.:43:41.

would have reduced deaths by 25%. Let's talk about cigarettes,

:43:42.:43:45.

originally there was plan to clear all branding, to clear all

:43:46.:43:51.

advertising from packets, that has now changed? That would have worked

:43:52.:43:55.

and the Australian experience says that is working you take away the

:43:56.:44:00.

glamour of the cigarette. Here are the two things you think are big

:44:01.:44:01.

killers, the two things you think are big

:44:02.:44:21.

are looking at are simplistic ways of appealing to the population and

:44:22.:44:26.

voters. Voters know they are wrong. If the voters knew they were wrong

:44:27.:44:31.

the voters would do the right things themselves they would take less

:44:32.:44:36.

alcohol and smoke fewer cigarettes? They are doing that to some

:44:37.:44:42.

excellent. Let's be clear, every taxpayer pays ?1,000 in tax every

:44:43.:44:47.

year simply to allow us service the level of drinking through health

:44:48.:44:50.

services and policing. There is an enormous tax burden on people

:44:51.:44:53.

because we don't have minimum pricing. The on the other hand

:44:54.:44:57.

people would say free will and make up your on mind, and what you are

:44:58.:45:02.

saying is patronising for people who should be able to decide for

:45:03.:45:05.

themselves? The whole thing about drinking alcohol is to take away

:45:06.:45:10.

your self-control. That is not the only reason? It is one of the

:45:11.:45:29.

the scientists and the Government not getting the message across, you

:45:30.:45:34.

are out of Government now, and the scientists in Government are they

:45:35.:45:38.

supine? I think that Government scientists are in a difficult

:45:39.:45:42.

position, because mostly they don't get listened to. Are they being

:45:43.:45:48.

supine or risk their jobs? I don't see anyone being as forceful as I

:45:49.:45:53.

was. Thanks all for tonight, Emily is here tomorrow. We leave you with

:45:54.:46:02.

a Berlin singing Bronski Boy when a passer-by felt he could do it

:46:03.:46:07.

better. # Turn away

:46:08.:46:14.

# Run away. # Run away

:46:15.:46:19.

# Turn away # Run away

:46:20.:46:21.

# Turn # Run away

:46:22.:46:41.

# Crying to

:46:42.:46:43.

With Kirsty Wark. Grilling one of the bosses at Wonga, the latest on the phone hacking trial, the topless protestors, face scanning in Tesco and the scientist who says LSD is safer than tobacco.


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