05/11/2013 Newsnight


05/11/2013

An exclusive look inside the war on drugs in Peru. Will cost of living win Labour the election? Mob rule and executive pay. How India sent a probe to Mars. With Emily Maitlis.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 05/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The war on drugs is being lost, says the former UN Secretary-General.

:00:08.:00:13.

Tonight we go to Peru, the world's cocaine factory to find out why. Sue

:00:14.:00:25.

Lloyd Roberts joins the search and destroy team looking for factories.

:00:26.:00:29.

It is noisy, dramatic but is it effective. For every one air strip

:00:30.:00:35.

destroyed by the Peruvian police, there is a dozen more in the I can't

:00:36.:00:39.

remember remaining operational. Despite the seizure, still more

:00:40.:00:43.

cocaine is getting through the airports and on to our streets. They

:00:44.:00:47.

let the small fish get caught on purpose to distract the officials,

:00:48.:00:51.

so the guy that has a large amount of drugs he gets through. We hear

:00:52.:00:59.

from the Colombian presidential candidate held for six years in the

:01:00.:01:04.

jungle. Call it the battle of Battersea, David Cameron launched

:01:05.:01:07.

his election battle Battersea, David Cameron launched

:01:08.:01:11.

Miliband launched his. We will ask if his cost of living strategy can

:01:12.:01:15.

put him in Downing Street. We say fightback! 400 years on, Parliament

:01:16.:01:21.

Square is full of a different kind of insurgent, tonight we debate the

:01:22.:01:26.

rights and wrongs of fat cat pay. And India sends a probe to Mars at a

:01:27.:01:32.

fraction of the price that America has. Is the race to the red planet

:01:33.:01:43.

getting cheaper? Hello, good evening, is it time to end the war

:01:44.:01:47.

on drugs, is it time in other words to admit the whole fight against the

:01:48.:01:49.

drug underworld is simply not working to do something else. Kofi

:01:50.:01:54.

Annan thinks so. The former UN Secretary-General has recommended

:01:55.:01:57.

that the criminalisation of drug use should be replaced by a public

:01:58.:02:02.

health approach. He's no 70s love child. Tonight we head to Peru, a

:02:03.:02:06.

country with the dubious honour of being the world's largest producer

:02:07.:02:11.

of the coca leaf, the ingredient used in cocaine. Few will forget the

:02:12.:02:16.

spectacle last summer of two women, one British, pleading guilty to drug

:02:17.:02:19.

smuggling out of Peru. The Government there has adopted a

:02:20.:02:23.

radical approach to combat the drugs war. Is it high time for change?

:02:24.:02:31.

Midnight, Lima Airport and another European is found attempting to

:02:32.:02:37.

smuggle out cocaine. Four kilos with a street value of some half a

:02:38.:02:43.

million pounds in London. He faces up to 15 years in jail and the drug

:02:44.:02:48.

will be destroyed. But there's plenty more where it came from. 500

:02:49.:03:01.

miles north-east in the Amazon Jungle and every clearing here is

:03:02.:03:07.

devoted to the growth of the plant, producing hundreds of tonnes of

:03:08.:03:11.

cocaine for export every year. The police team arrive as part of a

:03:12.:03:18.

Government eradication programme. The plant it be harvested four times

:03:19.:03:22.

a year, and it provides welcome work and money for the locals here, where

:03:23.:03:26.

there is little else. The workers have fled by the time the team pull

:03:27.:03:37.

the roots out from the rich soil. So why the guns? TRANSLATION: The drug

:03:38.:03:44.

trafficking gangs are still here, they have weapons

:03:45.:03:47.

trafficking gangs are still here, attack us. This is why these men

:03:48.:03:55.

need protection. They move on to makeshift laboratories hidden in the

:03:56.:04:00.

thick jungle. Equipped with all the ingredients for cocaine production.

:04:01.:04:08.

Dry leaves crushed with the foot to make a paste. Then acid to produce

:04:09.:04:14.

the powder for the European market. TRANSLATION: We went to London for a

:04:15.:04:20.

meeting with the serious crime squad to exchange information, because we

:04:21.:04:23.

believe some of the drugs from Peru are coming to the UK. There were

:04:24.:04:29.

apparently 15 locals working in dangerous and uncomfortable

:04:30.:04:33.

conditions. They earn more here than they would get from any other crop.

:04:34.:04:48.

But they won't be coming back. They then target the illegal air strip

:04:49.:04:53.

which they blow up to prevent light aircraft from collecting the cocaine

:04:54.:04:59.

at night. To fly to Bolivia, Brazil or Paraguy, from where it goes on to

:05:00.:05:09.

Europe. It is noisy, it is dram Maastricht

:05:10.:05:13.

Treaty but is it effective? For every one Narco Air strip, as they

:05:14.:05:19.

call it here, destroyed by the Pleurx there are a dozen more in the

:05:20.:05:24.

area which remain operational. Which is just one reason why critics say

:05:25.:05:26.

that tackling the problem of is just one reason why critics say

:05:27.:05:30.

in Peru, like a military operation, is not working. This is not a

:05:31.:05:37.

military problem, and one of the few things that we have learned in the

:05:38.:05:43.

last 30 years that this can't be understood as a war. This man was

:05:44.:05:50.

fired from the country's top drugs job, because he claims they don't

:05:51.:05:55.

want to hear what he has to say. We need to talk in economic, social

:05:56.:06:02.

terms. For those who had been excluded the drug business is the

:06:03.:06:08.

way of being part of the globalised economy in the world. Certainly the

:06:09.:06:17.

arrival of the international drug gangs has boosted the economy, near

:06:18.:06:19.

the growing areas where towns gangs has boosted the economy, near

:06:20.:06:23.

now filled with clubs and the girls say business is good. The workers --

:06:24.:06:37.

TRANSLATION: The workers treat us well, they invite us to dinner.

:06:38.:06:42.

TRANSLATION: The police don't pay us as match. -- much. Growers and

:06:43.:06:51.

hookers rely on the cocaine that needs to go out of the country to

:06:52.:06:55.

bring money back in. There are plenty of drug mules willing to

:06:56.:07:02.

oblige. A flight from the growing areas in the north arrives in the

:07:03.:07:09.

capital, Lima. Back in the airport terminal the 25-year-old Spaniard

:07:10.:07:13.

disembarks and checks in again for a flight to Madrid. But the dogs are

:07:14.:07:18.

on patrol tonight and detect narcotics in his case. The cocaine

:07:19.:07:26.

has been packed by professionals who recruited him in Amsterdam, and paid

:07:27.:07:32.

him 10,000 euros to carry the four kilos that will sell for 50 times

:07:33.:07:37.

that amount in Spain. It was a moment of madness he tells me and he

:07:38.:07:44.

now faces years in jail. But even the police here admit that 90% of

:07:45.:07:57.

the mules get through. Gavin from South Africa who was caught with

:07:58.:08:02.

three kilos has served his prison term, but can't leave

:08:03.:08:06.

three kilos has served his prison paying a fine, he has been living

:08:07.:08:12.

rough on the beach. Thinking back to his arrest he believes he was set

:08:13.:08:16.

up. I was a small fish, they were waiting for me, I know this from

:08:17.:08:20.

many people who have been caught for narcotics traffics. They let the

:08:21.:08:24.

small fish get caught on purpose to distract the officials so that the

:08:25.:08:29.

guy that has a large amount of drugs, gets through. It is all

:08:30.:08:34.

inside jobs. They have got people in the police, they have got people at

:08:35.:08:39.

the airports, they have got people in organised crime. All of them are

:08:40.:08:49.

on the payroll. Visiting day at the prisons which are filled with drug

:08:50.:08:54.

users and mules, the small fish. If a drug baron gets put in here, he

:08:55.:08:58.

can usually buy an official pardon to get out quickly. Conditions are

:08:59.:09:04.

tough, especially for foreigners who don't have family to bring them

:09:05.:09:12.

food. I was forced to take these bags in my luggage. Michaella

:09:13.:09:17.

McCollum and Melissa Reid, both from the UK, who were recently arrested

:09:18.:09:22.

at Lima airport for trying to smuggle 11 kilos of cocaine to Spain

:09:23.:09:27.

are in one of the worst prisons according to Nicole, who served her

:09:28.:09:36.

term in three. It is very cramped. You have not air to breathe there

:09:37.:09:41.

really. You feel like a rat in a cage. It is very hard for these

:09:42.:09:47.

girls. After their latest appearance in court their lawyers said they

:09:48.:09:51.

might be offered a reduced term if they give the police information.

:09:52.:09:56.

Nicole advises them not to. This is a very, very dangerous business. He

:09:57.:10:02.

can kill me in the jail. So I never say the names, I never say anything,

:10:03.:10:10.

I say it is my fault, my things. It is very dangerous if you say the

:10:11.:10:14.

name. And your sentence doesn't go less when you say something, it is a

:10:15.:10:21.

lie. Nicole also can't get home to Germany, and lives in a convanity

:10:22.:10:26.

where the nuns are looking after increasing numbers of former

:10:27.:10:30.

prisoners caught trying to get drugs to Europe. The biggest market for

:10:31.:10:44.

Peruvian cocaine. Back in the Amazon Basin, Matilda Ramirez is a small

:10:45.:10:48.

farmer, who was forced to give up growing the drug by the eradication

:10:49.:10:54.

programme. TRANSLATION: Yes cocaine is profitable, it paid enough money

:10:55.:10:59.

for all my needs. Now I grow cocoa and bananas, and it is not enough to

:11:00.:11:03.

feed my family, let alone send them to school. Many farmers move on to

:11:04.:11:11.

grow coca in areas the eradicators haven't yet reached. Drug experts

:11:12.:11:17.

say that cocaine production can only be tackled by helping the small

:11:18.:11:26.

farmer. I think that we should think on paying directly to them for every

:11:27.:11:32.

single gram of cocaine that is not produced by them. A kind of health

:11:33.:11:43.

preventive tax that should be paid by European countries and that will

:11:44.:11:47.

significantly improve the livelihoods of thousands of persons

:11:48.:11:52.

that are now involved in this economy.

:11:53.:12:01.

But the choppers were in action again today. The eradication

:12:02.:12:06.

programme in Peru gets four-times as much money as that given to farmers

:12:07.:12:12.

to develop alternative crops. A senior police officer here admitted

:12:13.:12:15.

that trying to stop cocaine production this way is like trying

:12:16.:12:24.

to catch the wind. With me now is David Raynes from the international

:12:25.:12:29.

task force on strategic drug policy, part of the National Drug Prevention

:12:30.:12:33.

Alliance as well. And from Oxford is the former Colombian presidential

:12:34.:12:38.

candidate, Ingrid Betancourt, kidnapped and imprisoned for six

:12:39.:12:44.

yeast by the FARC, known for their drugs trade. It is like trying to

:12:45.:12:49.

catch the wind, expensive and hopeless? We are seeing that drugs

:12:50.:12:54.

are socialally corrosive in supply countries and consuming countries as

:12:55.:13:02.

well. Both are affected equally. I know you will talk about what Kofi

:13:03.:13:06.

Annan said that we have to change and adopt a public health approach.

:13:07.:13:10.

That what we normally mean when we hear that language is talking about

:13:11.:13:14.

legalisation. The trouble with that is poor countries do worse out of it

:13:15.:13:19.

than rich countries. Even now the poor people of the favelas in South

:13:20.:13:24.

America and the poor people of Afghanistan using cocaine and crack

:13:25.:13:29.

cocaine, they have no Priory Clinics. Without going down the line

:13:30.:13:34.

of legalisation do you believe the war on drugs, the phrase coined 30

:13:35.:13:39.

years ago? Tifs coined by the Washington Post in 1929, it was

:13:40.:13:44.

picked up by somebody. And it is never repeat bid people on my side

:13:45.:13:48.

of the debate. I never use "war on drugs". What we are dealing with

:13:49.:13:53.

here is a situation on containment. These things are not fit for human

:13:54.:13:57.

consumption, they damage lives and we have to do our best to contain

:13:58.:14:00.

it. I'm with the people of Peru and we should do for more them. Ingrid

:14:01.:14:06.

Betancourt, your life was utterly changed by your ordeal at the hands

:14:07.:14:08.

of a military organisation of drug changed by your ordeal at the hands

:14:09.:14:12.

Lords essentially. What did that leave you believing? There is, of

:14:13.:14:17.

course, a war on drugs. We could fill it in Columbia in a very

:14:18.:14:24.

harmful way. I would say Columbia is probably the only country that has

:14:25.:14:27.

been successful in the war on drugs. The military forces in Columbia, the

:14:28.:14:36.

comloam -- Colombian police have been heroic in persevering against

:14:37.:14:42.

the drug traffickers. The issue is the Colombian success has meant what

:14:43.:14:47.

we see in Peru. It has crossed the borders. The drug traffickers don't

:14:48.:14:53.

have a nationality. If they are tracked in one country they cross

:14:54.:14:57.

the border to another country. Would your belief be for a country like

:14:58.:15:01.

Peru, I mean can you do anything within the borders now,

:15:02.:15:04.

Peru, I mean can you do anything saying no, so what would be your

:15:05.:15:11.

suggestion? Well I have no proposal. It is really a very difficult

:15:12.:15:18.

question to tackle. What we know is it is a global issue. There is no

:15:19.:15:22.

country that can deal with this issue by its own means or

:15:23.:15:27.

unilaterally. We have seen, for example, what happened in Holland

:15:28.:15:32.

with the legalisation of drugs and we had Holland converted in a hub

:15:33.:15:42.

for crimes. Tourists for drugs was one of the problems it caused. I

:15:43.:15:47.

think there is a fact the global commission on drugs policy stated

:15:48.:15:57.

very clearly in its report two years ago our policy our punitive policy

:15:58.:16:02.

against drugs is failure. We need to begin thinking how we're going to

:16:03.:16:06.

proceed from now on. Would that include a liberalisation of sorts? I

:16:07.:16:14.

don't know what the response is. You know, I think that there is a clear

:16:15.:16:22.

consensus that drugs cannot be over the counter. That it has to be of

:16:23.:16:29.

course as Kofi Annan was saying with the primacy on health issues. But we

:16:30.:16:34.

need enforcement too. The fact is that you see drugs have become a

:16:35.:16:40.

huge financial machine for other crimes. Especially for terrorism.

:16:41.:16:43.

We're talking also about sexual crimes. Especially for terrorism.

:16:44.:16:50.

slavery or organ trafficking. All sorts of crimes have been

:16:51.:16:57.

strengthened by the power of the drug traffickers. Why? Because it

:16:58.:17:13.

is, we're talking about DLO 306 billion US dollars. It is a huge

:17:14.:17:19.

amount of money. They can pay all kinds of weapons. Can I pick up on a

:17:20.:17:23.

couple of points. There is a lot of agreement. There is a lot of

:17:24.:17:31.

agreement GREEMENT. H aye what's that then GREEMENT. One of the

:17:32.:17:34.

things about drugs is we have a shared responsibility between

:17:35.:17:37.

nations not to pick up on each other. The global commission is

:17:38.:17:40.

nations not to pick up on each self-styled global commission, it

:17:41.:17:42.

has no status. What it is and what it represents is the worldwide

:17:43.:17:47.

legalisation movement. It is very heavily funded. We have to be very

:17:48.:17:50.

careful about saying anything in agreement with the global

:17:51.:17:54.

commission. What scares you so much about legalisation? I don't agree

:17:55.:17:59.

with this. The global commission are eminent Presidents and former

:18:00.:18:06.

officials that have been tackling the drug problem. We have, for

:18:07.:18:13.

example, President Gavilia, that was the one that captured, we have the

:18:14.:18:19.

President of Pakistan, Venezuela, Poland and Portugal. When you talk

:18:20.:18:28.

about a huge financing lobby, I'm always very cautious with this. When

:18:29.:18:31.

I was in Columbia, I can say it because I was in the situation. I

:18:32.:18:37.

could is see how the FARC, for example, which was, or is a huge

:18:38.:18:42.

drug cartel was against the legalisation of drugs. Why? Because

:18:43.:18:51.

it is going against the money that they are making. There is a few

:18:52.:18:54.

points there. First of all the people on the global commission, the

:18:55.:18:58.

statesmen are the figureheads, the power behind is are the money from

:18:59.:19:03.

George Sorres, he was at a conference last week promoting.

:19:04.:19:05.

These people have been there, they are not airy fairy? They are

:19:06.:19:09.

figureheads and being used. The message to South America and the

:19:10.:19:12.

south American Presidents that we can legalise it and solve all the

:19:13.:19:15.

problems. It is not correct. You can't take the criminality out of

:19:16.:19:20.

drugs supply by legalising it. In North America for instance heavily

:19:21.:19:25.

regulated prescription drugs are a huge criminal enterprise and... You

:19:26.:19:29.

would be agreeing with the drug cartels? I don't believe that the

:19:30.:19:33.

drug cartels, they will exist whether you legalise it or not. Are

:19:34.:19:36.

they going to pack up or going away, they will be in competition with any

:19:37.:19:40.

legal supply. They are already in competition with legal supply in in

:19:41.:19:45.

the UK. 20% of the UK tobacco market, smuggled, fit or both. Ed

:19:46.:19:51.

Miliband was back on his predator theme today, this time the payday

:19:52.:19:55.

lenders were his targeted beast. He called the poster child of the

:19:56.:19:59.

industry, Wonga, one of the worst symbols of the cost of living crisis

:20:00.:20:04.

and accused the industry as a whole of preying on the vulnerable. It is

:20:05.:20:10.

ground that he believes works well with the public.

:20:11.:20:13.

The Conservatives say living standards will rise as the economy

:20:14.:20:17.

recovers. But today the Secretary singled out the water firms and

:20:18.:20:23.

asked them to look closely at price rises. Are they now fighting for the

:20:24.:20:34.

same political ground? This power station too close to be Westminster

:20:35.:20:38.

to be resisted by politicians hoping to make grand statements. Come with

:20:39.:20:44.

us and we will build a better country together. As it was in the

:20:45.:20:51.

election of 2010, it was today. For the Labour leader. The last story

:20:52.:21:00.

manifesto launched back there was an invitation to join the Tory Britain.

:21:01.:21:06.

They wanted people to run their own schools and nurseries. Ed Miliband

:21:07.:21:14.

was back at Battersea Power Station to talk about different matters. He

:21:15.:21:19.

believes the election will be fought on the cost of living. They the

:21:20.:21:24.

Tories believe it will be who will run the economy best. David Cameron

:21:25.:21:28.

said I was talking about the cost of living crisis because I didn't want

:21:29.:21:30.

to talk about economic policy. We have Prime Minister who thinks we

:21:31.:21:34.

can detatch our national economic success from the success of

:21:35.:21:37.

Britain's families and businesses. He doesn't seem to realise there is

:21:38.:21:42.

no such thing as a successful economy which doesn't carry

:21:43.:21:46.

Britain's families with it. And he obviously doesn't get that the old

:21:47.:21:49.

link between growth and living standards is just broken. Very good

:21:50.:21:56.

speech. But I just want to ask you how will you win the election, have

:21:57.:21:58.

you got some plan in mind? That is how will you win the election, have

:21:59.:22:04.

good question! Part of Ed Miliband's plan today was for higher wage,

:22:05.:22:07.

under a Labour Government employers would receive a tax rebate in return

:22:08.:22:16.

for paying a worker ?7.65 an hour, the called living wage. Is it an

:22:17.:22:20.

election-winning agenda. When you ask which party is best to deal with

:22:21.:22:24.

the cost of living. They say the Labour Party is best placed. When

:22:25.:22:26.

you talk about the economy in general people say the

:22:27.:22:29.

Conservatives. And the gap between Conservatives and Labour has been

:22:30.:22:33.

growing in 2013. So what Labour will hope to do is say, yes, people may

:22:34.:22:38.

see the economy growing, but that the other people are being left

:22:39.:22:42.

behind. It is those people that feel they are being left behind, that

:22:43.:22:45.

feel their living standards are not improving. Despite an improvement in

:22:46.:22:49.

the economy. It is those people they will want to appeal to at the next

:22:50.:22:53.

election which we are pretty certain will be fought on the issue

:22:54.:22:56.

election which we are pretty certain economy. That is one pollster

:22:57.:22:58.

arguing the economy will trump the cost of living in 2015, but the

:22:59.:23:02.

Government, nonetheless, floats modest more sells of its own. Today

:23:03.:23:06.

a formal request that water companies keep their prices down? Do

:23:07.:23:12.

the Tories need to do more? Do they need to reach out to low-paid

:23:13.:23:17.

Britain? One of them did yesterday and I nouncing a new voluntary rate

:23:18.:23:25.

for the living wage. I'm free marketeer I brief in low taxation,

:23:26.:23:31.

yes, management's right to manage. I'm a classical liberal economist.

:23:32.:23:37.

Indeed I would go so far as to say that I am a Thatcherite. But I'm

:23:38.:23:43.

also, and I should say, I'm also a passionate believer in the London

:23:44.:23:46.

also, and I should say, I'm also a living wage. Do you think that the

:23:47.:23:48.

link between wages and growth has broken, because a lot of people do

:23:49.:23:52.

think that? I think it is very important when you have a city like

:23:53.:23:57.

London that is powering ahead in so many ways and which unquestionably

:23:58.:24:04.

creates such Titanic fortunes that you should be paying the people who

:24:05.:24:09.

keep the wheels of London turning you should pay decent incomes. What

:24:10.:24:15.

about the link? The London living age, I think that link needs to be

:24:16.:24:18.

maintained. Tories in Westminster are worried about the rising cost of

:24:19.:24:22.

living. They think that not all parts of the economy are feeling the

:24:23.:24:25.

recovery. But there are different views about what you do about it.

:24:26.:24:29.

You could increase the personal tax allowance, or the minimum wage. Give

:24:30.:24:33.

more people more of their own money back. Or there that group that --

:24:34.:24:39.

more people more of their own money there is that group that think you

:24:40.:24:41.

don't need to do anything. There are those who believe that wages will

:24:42.:24:44.

rise next year just before the general election. But the key thing

:24:45.:24:47.

for this group is making sure interest rates don't also creep up.

:24:48.:24:52.

So wages up, yes, just not mortgage rates.

:24:53.:24:55.

Labour promising action on the cost of living, the Government unsure how

:24:56.:25:02.

much to counter offer. The battle of Battersea Power Station.

:25:03.:25:05.

Well, this is what politics is going to be about for the next 12 months.

:25:06.:25:10.

Let's unpick how effective the arguments are. Joining me now Danny

:25:11.:25:14.

Finkelstein, Tory peer and lead writer at the Times, and John

:25:15.:25:19.

McTiernan, who used to advise Tony Blair. Ed Miliband clearly thinks

:25:20.:25:22.

this is very fertile territory for him. He's sticking with it, is he

:25:23.:25:26.

right? He has set the public conversation for every week since

:25:27.:25:30.

the Labour Party Conference. He's got on to cost of living, and it is

:25:31.:25:36.

a battle of the frames. The Tories want to talk about facts and figures

:25:37.:25:39.

and the economy and want to get Labour on to managing the economy,

:25:40.:25:43.

and Ed wants to go it is not about the economy it is what people feel

:25:44.:25:47.

and in their hearts. The polls are contradictory on it, people are

:25:48.:25:50.

saying it is a good idea but it will lead to higher prices on fuel, if

:25:51.:25:55.

you are talking about the energy freeze, for example? People to some

:25:56.:25:59.

extent feel genuine pressure but they don't believe anybody can help

:26:00.:26:05.

them. It is part of the sense that politics don't matter any more. It

:26:06.:26:11.

is appalling it and you say 80% of people support it but 52% don't

:26:12.:26:15.

believe he would do it as Prime Minister. He has a huge credibility

:26:16.:26:20.

issue there so that he will do what he says. Will what he promises

:26:21.:26:25.

deliver what he says it will, a completely other question. The worry

:26:26.:26:28.

for the Conservatives is they are putting all the weight behind the

:26:29.:26:31.

idea of the economy recovering. What if people have banked that already?

:26:32.:26:34.

And also that people don't feel it will help them. The Conservative

:26:35.:26:37.

Party has a long standing problem that people think they are for them

:26:38.:26:41.

rather than for us, that is a big problem. He's putting his finger on

:26:42.:26:45.

a problem. He's clearly running with an issue that matters to people. The

:26:46.:26:49.

only problem with it is you can't improve people's wages. The economy

:26:50.:26:54.

has to get better. His big problem at the base of it is that the

:26:55.:26:58.

argument doesn't work. He can nudge people to pay more, because I don't

:26:59.:27:01.

believe that every company sets the wage that it possibly can. So it

:27:02.:27:05.

might improve. But if you are going to give people a tax cut for a year,

:27:06.:27:10.

say, in order to improve people's wages permanently, very few

:27:11.:27:12.

companies are going to do that because they can't afford it.

:27:13.:27:15.

companies are going to do that if the Conservatives were confident

:27:16.:27:18.

on that argument they wouldn't keep offering these little things like

:27:19.:27:21.

the water companies' letter or the rail fares cap. Why do they keep on

:27:22.:27:26.

walking towards that? For the reasons I have suggested. Two

:27:27.:27:30.

reasons, one is obviously any Government of the centre right needs

:27:31.:27:33.

to do what it can to improve the amount of money in people's pockets

:27:34.:27:38.

and the competition in water. You have to do those things, and

:27:39.:27:41.

secondly because they need to politically. This is the

:27:42.:27:44.

vulnerability. People will believe that the Conservative Party can do

:27:45.:27:47.

something about the economy. But it is fatal for the Conservative Party

:27:48.:27:50.

if they don't think, if they think the money is coming in but it is

:27:51.:27:53.

going to someone else not them. People are prone to that view. You

:27:54.:27:58.

do have to do what can you, and Ed Miliband is right to press on the

:27:59.:28:01.

dilemma, he does have one himself, which is as John said, will it work

:28:02.:28:05.

and people rightly think, hang on, how can we be paid more. You can't

:28:06.:28:09.

write yourself a cheque and make yourself rich. He was keen to keep a

:28:10.:28:15.

centrist ground for the first couple of years, he seems to be embracing

:28:16.:28:20.

the Red Ed tag, is that right? He has gone further to the right on

:28:21.:28:24.

immigration than Tony Blair would have dared to. He's a very

:28:25.:28:26.

calculating politician, there is no doubt about that. I think he is a

:28:27.:28:30.

populist on welfare and immigration. He is reaching to populist elements

:28:31.:28:34.

on the right, on this issue he's reaching to populist elements of the

:28:35.:28:38.

left. He has a consistent frame in that he's trying to address his

:28:39.:28:43.

positive issues are about emotions and connections. The problem the

:28:44.:28:48.

Tories have on the one hand they are logic chopping, look at the number,

:28:49.:28:51.

embrace the pain, we had to go through the pain, they are saying

:28:52.:28:55.

there is a sweetie there. You either have to be dad and say it is for

:28:56.:28:59.

your own good or mum and say you can have the sweets. Are there more

:29:00.:29:03.

sweeties to come? I think the central Conservative argument for

:29:04.:29:05.

the election has to be Britain's on the right track, don't turn back,

:29:06.:29:08.

using that cliche. They have to say the economy still needs fixing and

:29:09.:29:12.

it isn't fixed yet. They have to suggest that by Ed Miliband jumping

:29:13.:29:15.

ahead to people as living standards. There is a contradiction, they are

:29:16.:29:19.

talking about dropping the green levies and whip ceasing the personal

:29:20.:29:25.

-- increasing the personal levy. Are they just being dangled? Neither

:29:26.:29:30.

party will be able to do an awful lot about people's living standards

:29:31.:29:33.

in the short-term. The country borrowed too much and has to reduce

:29:34.:29:39.

the deafcy. As you do that the basic maths is people won't be better off.

:29:40.:29:45.

Ed Miliband announced this thing on the living wage, I thought it was

:29:46.:29:48.

imaginative but I don't think it will help much, you can't pay people

:29:49.:29:51.

imaginative but I don't think it what they can't earn and the country

:29:52.:29:54.

can't pay out what it doesn't have. If the economy does recover is Ed

:29:55.:29:59.

Miliband doomed on the strategy in People do believe the economy is

:30:00.:30:03.

recovering, and why wouldn't they, it is recovering. It was driven into

:30:04.:30:07.

a ditch by the Tories and now it is coming out of the ditch. The

:30:08.:30:09.

difficulty for the Tory Party is simply this, when people are asked

:30:10.:30:14.

about is it getting better in your area, and they go no. There is a

:30:15.:30:18.

good reason for, that they are on static or falling wages. If the

:30:19.:30:22.

question is do you feel better off today than five years ago, people

:30:23.:30:27.

say no. We are listening, we get it absolutely, we know there is a

:30:28.:30:32.

problem. The words with which the Centrica boss waved his bonus

:30:33.:30:39.

package and white flag to signal to customers he was on side. A

:30:40.:30:45.

foregoing of a bonus in every sector has been a symbol. What will it

:30:46.:30:49.

change, bills won't come down and bankers won't get less, is it a

:30:50.:30:53.

vague nod to public accountability, or the slippery path to mob rule. We

:30:54.:30:59.

report from the boardroom now. When a big corporate boss turns down his

:31:00.:31:03.

million-pound bonus, what is he doing? Is it an act of contrition, a

:31:04.:31:08.

recognition that executive pay is just too high, even in times like

:31:09.:31:13.

these, indecent? Or is he appeasing the gods of public opinion to hold

:31:14.:31:18.

them at bay. Opening a valve to let the steam out of popular outrage,

:31:19.:31:22.

biceping a fleeting moment of humiliation. Public fury has put

:31:23.:31:37.

bankers, BBC executives and MPs fiddling expenses into the 21st

:31:38.:31:42.

century equivalent of the stocks. We have vented our fury, what good does

:31:43.:31:49.

it do. Aren't these industry bosses courting public approval? I don't

:31:50.:31:51.

really see it, our style is much more cool and forensic. We leave to

:31:52.:31:56.

other committees to have their own style, if that involves pill

:31:57.:32:04.

lorrying people -- pillorying people that is it. So many thoughts and

:32:05.:32:07.

ideas are driven by Twitter, there is this fantastic incentive and

:32:08.:32:10.

politicians are not immune to that to pile in denouncing something

:32:11.:32:14.

where often people don't know the facts. Does it change anything. Big

:32:15.:32:18.

salaries and even bigger bonuses go on. And why not if they reward real

:32:19.:32:22.

success. One telecoms boss told Radio 4 today

:32:23.:32:25.

that the ?3 million she earned last One telecoms boss told Radio 4 today

:32:26.:32:29.

year was justified. I think one of the great challenges of Britain, and

:32:30.:32:32.

I love this country, is that we're really good at slagging off success.

:32:33.:32:36.

And if we want to have a growing economy we want to have thriving

:32:37.:32:40.

successful growing businesses. And people who aspire to lead them.

:32:41.:32:43.

Because they do well as a result. I don't think there is anything wrong

:32:44.:32:46.

with that, provided there is complete transparency and your

:32:47.:32:49.

customers, shareholders and colleagues get to see. The former

:32:50.:32:53.

BBC executive who got a pay-off last year worth nearly a million pounds

:32:54.:32:58.

spoke on Radio 5 live today, no ritual sacrifice from him to placate

:32:59.:33:02.

the public mood. Those terms given to me were approved by the

:33:03.:33:07.

appropriate body, the BBC's remuneration committee of

:33:08.:33:10.

independent non-executive directors, I wasn't there and took no part in

:33:11.:33:13.

it, I was given what I was given. I lost my job, given what I was given

:33:14.:33:17.

and agreed to do what the BBC wanted. In the City of London, what

:33:18.:33:23.

has changed. The bonus system that awarded short-term profits still

:33:24.:33:27.

function, there is no overhaul of governance. The former chief

:33:28.:33:31.

executive of RBS, Fred Goodwin, became a totemic figure as the plan

:33:32.:33:35.

who helped plunge us all into recession and mountainous public

:33:36.:33:41.

debt. Into the pillory went Fred Goodwin, striped of his knighthood,

:33:42.:33:46.

public opinion wanted him striped of his six-figure pension too, but

:33:47.:33:49.

public opinion is not the law. And under the law he was obliged to hold

:33:50.:33:54.

his employers to the contract they agreed with him. In a democracy the

:33:55.:33:58.

rule of law is what stands between all of us, Fred Goodwin included,

:33:59.:34:02.

and the arbitary exercise of power. Where would the justice be in that.

:34:03.:34:07.

Public grievance with executive pay and bonuses in the UK is part of

:34:08.:34:12.

something global. This summer protesters took to the streets of

:34:13.:34:18.

tarok to op -- Turkey to oppose the redevelopment of an Istanbul park.

:34:19.:34:22.

It wasn't about the park, it was about a disaffected population that

:34:23.:34:27.

had come to believe its power elites were out-of-touch with and

:34:28.:34:32.

unaccountable to ordinary citizens. Here the electoral rise of UKIP is

:34:33.:34:36.

not a passing phase, it is an expression in part of a growing

:34:37.:34:42.

public frustration with a sense of powerless. Over the last decades

:34:43.:34:48.

national Governments have ceded a lot of power to the global market

:34:49.:34:52.

place. People can sack MPs by refusing to re-elect them. How they

:34:53.:34:56.

can hold to account global capitalism, in a world increasingly

:34:57.:35:01.

without national frontiers. This offshore world that has emerged and

:35:02.:35:06.

the powerlessness it renders to national communities is hugely

:35:07.:35:09.

overstated. We can, if we choose, make Google pay tax. We can if we

:35:10.:35:17.

choose say these are the terms for a British bank doing business in these

:35:18.:35:22.

islands. We can if we choose say if you want to sell electricity, gas

:35:23.:35:25.

and water there are ownership obligation that is come with that

:35:26.:35:29.

right. I think we have -- obligations that come with that

:35:30.:35:36.

right. I think we have been far too feeble. But public opinion we

:35:37.:35:40.

demands the stockades. And is it ever byesself really effective. --

:35:41.:35:45.

by itself really effective. How to how old to account global

:35:46.:35:50.

capitalism. November 5th has long been the place for insurgents

:35:51.:35:55.

against capitalism. Here are the masked demonstrators campaigning

:35:56.:35:58.

against amongst other things big payouts. The only thing that got

:35:59.:36:04.

hung, drawn and quartered was Sam Laidlaw's bonus. With us to discuss

:36:05.:36:09.

it is Nicola Horlick, and Deborah Hargreaves, director of the High Pay

:36:10.:36:14.

Centre set to reduce high pay. Do you believe anything is achieved by

:36:15.:36:19.

the high-profile media scalpings, offering up the totemic bonus? It is

:36:20.:36:27.

a guessture, but we need to put something more systemic in place. To

:36:28.:36:30.

have some structures in place that stop these huge excessive payouts to

:36:31.:36:34.

executives. Interestingly on Sam Laidlaw's bow New York when you

:36:35.:36:37.

think that one of the measures for which he achieves that bonus is

:36:38.:36:43.

customer trust, you wonder if he would have been due a bonus at all

:36:44.:36:49.

with price rises. That is neb blues of course, can you -- neb butless --

:36:50.:37:01.

nebules, or can you ever justify a huge bonus for a executive of the

:37:02.:37:04.

company? I don't think so, the shareholders own the company and

:37:05.:37:07.

they should say it is not acceptable. For some reason they

:37:08.:37:12.

haven't said that. Do you think every energy boss should be doing

:37:13.:37:16.

the same thing, would you go on the big six? It is not just energy but

:37:17.:37:20.

large public companies. There is a marked difference between somebody

:37:21.:37:25.

building a business, entrepenurally, a lot of sacrifices are made when

:37:26.:37:29.

you set up a business. When you build a business and succeed and

:37:30.:37:34.

sell it or part of it and become wealthy, that is great. That is

:37:35.:37:37.

fantastic. But if you are just walking into a very large job with

:37:38.:37:43.

this huge bonus and really your efforts aren't going to make a

:37:44.:37:46.

difference to the way the business is run. The gap now between the

:37:47.:37:52.

average pay and the boss is so huge Deborah has the statistics. You are

:37:53.:37:55.

saying you don't trust shareholders to be making the right decisions? I

:37:56.:37:59.

think it is strange they think it is OK to hand out millions of pounds to

:38:00.:38:03.

these people. I don't know why they think it is OK. You don't worry that

:38:04.:38:08.

is the new status quo, that people won't want to take on these big

:38:09.:38:13.

jobs. Look at Stephen Hester, was he right to forego bonuses? He was in a

:38:14.:38:19.

slightly divan position, because -- different position, because we, in

:38:20.:38:24.

effect, the tax-payers ended up own the company. I'm talking about

:38:25.:38:29.

companies on the stock market, these are not entrepenural businesses, but

:38:30.:38:36.

people are walking into the jobs to be paid millions of pounds because

:38:37.:38:40.

they have that title. We mustn't forget these people are not the only

:38:41.:38:43.

people creating profits in the company. It depends on the whole of

:38:44.:38:48.

the work force, and yet work force wages have been held down for years,

:38:49.:38:52.

no-one has had an above inflation pay rise in the general work force,

:38:53.:38:56.

yet the bosses have seen their pay go up by 7-10% a year for the past

:38:57.:39:03.

10%. That is an average of ?4. 5 million. You would be prepared as a

:39:04.:39:07.

leading figure in the City to stand up and say the gap is too big, the

:39:08.:39:13.

wage disparity is too big, bankers shouldn't be paid that, George

:39:14.:39:16.

Osborne shouldn't be fighting the corner for bonuses in Brussels now

:39:17.:39:21.

is that right? I do feel very strongly that is the case. I on

:39:22.:39:24.

is that right? I do feel very day-to-day basis raise money for

:39:25.:39:27.

entrepeneurs to develop their business. I have moved away from

:39:28.:39:30.

managing large pension funds. That is what I do now. I think it is, I

:39:31.:39:34.

sort of looked at what these people have to go through to establish

:39:35.:39:37.

their businesses. A lot of people these days can't get money from

:39:38.:39:41.

bank. They are borrowing money on credit cards to set up their

:39:42.:39:44.

companies, they are mortgaging their houses. How do you feel about that.

:39:45.:39:49.

Presumably Deborah you would welcome Government intervention? I think we

:39:50.:39:51.

need to have structures in place that try to restrain pay. Therefore

:39:52.:39:56.

we have said we want to see workers for example voted on to boards, or

:39:57.:40:01.

remuneration committees. To try to introduce a little bit of common

:40:02.:40:04.

sense-thinking into some of those deliberations on pay. And also you

:40:05.:40:08.

have got to look at the pay ratio, we have now got 160-times average

:40:09.:40:15.

CEO pay to average pay across the work force. We could just cap them,

:40:16.:40:20.

we could cap salaries? That is where I would draw the line. I don't think

:40:21.:40:24.

Governments should intervene, it is shareholders who own companies and

:40:25.:40:26.

shareholders need to take a stand. It is not for Governments to get

:40:27.:40:30.

involved in what people are paid. What about a systemic change, what

:40:31.:40:35.

about an actual cap or regulation that is in place? But we're seeing

:40:36.:40:39.

democracy at work, part of it is us having this discussion now. You

:40:40.:40:43.

don't mind what we might loosely call mob rule, and people deciding

:40:44.:40:47.

even if a contract has been drawn up under the rule of law and

:40:48.:40:50.

contractual law, if that gets torn up and thrown out the window?

:40:51.:40:54.

Unfortunate low you can't do that. Because it is -- unfortunately you

:40:55.:40:57.

can't do that, it is a contract. When people are up in arms and say

:40:58.:41:01.

it is terrible this person has had payout. If there is a contract in

:41:02.:41:05.

place that is the way it is. I think there is discretion over contracts.

:41:06.:41:09.

For next time. Thank you. It seems incredible that a space project that

:41:10.:41:17.

apparently combat under way 15 -- got underit a15 months ago launched

:41:18.:41:23.

a spacecraft to Mars. India will reach the red planet for a fraction

:41:24.:41:28.

of the American mission. Is this the beginning of the democratisation of

:41:29.:41:31.

the space industry. Will any country soon have the conquest of space in

:41:32.:41:35.

its reach. Or will it remain the preserve of richer nations? In its

:41:36.:41:48.

early decades the exploration of space brought us wonder. And a new

:41:49.:41:52.

view of our planet. And the conquest of space came to epitomise

:41:53.:41:58.

earth-bound feuds. The space race is too benign a label. This

:41:59.:42:01.

earth-bound feuds. The space race is bitter battle between two Cold War

:42:02.:42:10.

superpowers. But the time has gone when only the US and Russia could

:42:11.:42:15.

afford the gar Ganttian cost of being a space-faring nation. I had

:42:16.:42:22.

seen the moon landing as a young boy. And I always thought one day

:42:23.:42:30.

I'm going to do that. Two models are emerging, cheaper, faster, smarter

:42:31.:42:34.

commercial missions. The spirit behind Richard Branson's quest to

:42:35.:42:42.

sell tickets for space. And aspiring, slimmed down, state

:42:43.:42:46.

missions. Such as Iran's bizarre claims to have sent a monkey into

:42:47.:42:57.

space earlier this year. You Live off. Lift off normal. India's

:42:58.:43:02.

successful launch today sent a powerful message about its place in

:43:03.:43:09.

the world and its aspirations. In striving to do space exploration as

:43:10.:43:13.

America did in the 1960s, it can be a driver to making your society

:43:14.:43:19.

smarter. So America thought itself smarter by placing human footprints

:43:20.:43:27.

on the moon. In trying to reach Martian orbit the Indian generation

:43:28.:43:32.

inspired by the moves the Government are making are ThinkBroadbanding

:43:33.:43:37.

themselves smarter too. For -- Are thinking themselves smarter too.

:43:38.:43:41.

Today's launch brings inspiration for scientists and engineers

:43:42.:43:43.

Today's launch brings inspiration technological spark for the economy.

:43:44.:43:49.

For many outside observers the astonishing thing is they were able

:43:50.:43:54.

to do so cheaply? It was audacious that they attempted to do something

:43:55.:43:59.

that previously only two or three nations have had the capablities to

:44:00.:44:02.

do. And suddenly come up with a programme that seems to be

:44:03.:44:07.

succeeding so far for this very, very comparatively small amount of

:44:08.:44:12.

money. In theory India and China are minnows in the world of space

:44:13.:44:19.

endeavour. Both spend about $1. 3 billion a year, compared to NASA's

:44:20.:44:31.

$17 billion. India's mission cost $70 million, a lot less than the

:44:32.:44:38.

NASA project. The success of India and China with limited budgets has

:44:39.:44:45.

made getting into space tempting for new competitors, such as South

:44:46.:44:50.

America, Brazil and Iran. A challenge to the space programmes

:44:51.:44:55.

that produced the Apollo and other space programmes. The average age is

:44:56.:45:04.

57 nowadays, NASA is finding it difficult to recruit people because

:45:05.:45:06.

it is not seen as the big opportunity for people it once was.

:45:07.:45:12.

Instead the bright sparks are increasingly attracted to companies

:45:13.:45:17.

such as Space X, selling cut price services back to NASA. Elon Mussk is

:45:18.:45:25.

someone who has driven the cost of reaching space down. He has how have

:45:26.:45:30.

we got into space in the past, Governments have centrally funded

:45:31.:45:33.

it, they have hired people in companies to hire other people in

:45:34.:45:38.

companies and sub, sub, sub-contract things out in order to bring rocket

:45:39.:45:43.

engines, boosters and spacecraft. You can cut out a lot of that

:45:44.:45:48.

pyramid structure and do things far more straight and efficiently with a

:45:49.:45:54.

single level. India faced criticism today that nation with so much

:45:55.:45:57.

poverty should not be spending money reaching for the stars. But others

:45:58.:46:03.

see this as essential for the country's future growth. It is an

:46:04.:46:07.

investment which India needs to make if it has to remain at the

:46:08.:46:10.

frontlines of technology in the world. And space is a brave man's

:46:11.:46:17.

business. India invests heavily towards that. Nearly half a century

:46:18.:46:25.

ago it was the moon, now it is Mars and beyond that is the goal for the

:46:26.:46:29.

growing pool of nations able to flex their muscles in space. That's all

:46:30.:46:35.

for tonight. Kirsty is back tomorrow, we leave you with a few of

:46:36.:46:41.

the paintings put on display today from the 1400 looted during the

:46:42.:46:44.

Second World War and found hidden away earlier this year in the Munich

:46:45.:46:50.

flat of one Gavin Gebhardt.

:46:51.:46:57.

An exclusive look inside the war on drugs in Peru. Will cost of living win Labour the election? Mob rule and executive pay. How India sent a probe to Mars.