20/11/2013 Newsnight


20/11/2013

Newsnight looks at the British citizen fighting in Syria; what now for the Co-op Bank?; and what is Ed Milibandism? And there is an interview with John Grisham.


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things. # And then I don't feel so bad!

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# I simply remember my favourite things.

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And... . Terrible things were done At least one of the fighters

:00:24.:00:40.

And... . Terrible things were done during

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And... . Terrible things were done one of them? Also tonight:

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Some of the white people from our generation from the Deep South still

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struggle with racism and how to overcome it. We talk to John GRISH

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sham about the real south. TRANSMIT We have heard warnings about Jihadi

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tourism, young men leaving for wars across the board. With the stated

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threat that they will return to this country bent on continuing the fight

:01:40.:01:43.

here. Precise cases are another matter though. On the day that it

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emerged that a second British man has been killed fighting in Syria,

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Newsnight can tell the exclusive story of a young man who has gone

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from a British city to what he considers a holy war in Syria. Day

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breaks over Portsmouth. And for a 23-year-old Britishman who has gone

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to Syria to fight Jihad or holy war. Allah hu Akbar. We have obtained an

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interview with him close to the Syrian front line. We speak to his

:02:30.:02:38.

family here in the UK. If he dies in this cause he has not died in vain,

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he has died doing a good deed or act. Our exclusive comes two weeks

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after Britain's spies warned about the dangers to the UK of people

:02:49.:02:53.

travelling to Syria to fight. They think you are a threat to national

:02:54.:03:02.

security, what would you say to that? He was born in Britain, he

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grew up in the seaside town of South Sea, part of the wider Portsmouth

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city I can't remember. He has been a prolific user of social media and

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working with academics from King's College London we have been

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analysing his tweets. Some of which have been based on his experiences

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close to the Syrian front line. We have been working with an academic

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from King's College London, he has been researching Brits joining

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opposition groups fighting the Assad regime. This is a British national

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gone over in the last few weeks. You can see it is very macho, it is very

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much appealing to the kinds of things young men are interested in.

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Here is a guy standing there with ISI kit, he has his gun, his friends

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are behind him undertaking military training. In the initial phases

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people stayed under the radar. Now the next people going over, we have

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a critical mass in Syria, they are seeking a slightly higher profile

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and positivise it to people back in the UK and encourage people to come

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over. He think this is him in Syria. We spent last week in Portsmouth,

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investigating the story of the 23-year-old Brit who told us he as

:04:18.:04:27.

fighting Jihad, or holy war. He's The man on the left is Portsmouth

:04:28.:04:34.

born and bred. His family are from Bangladesh and arrived 50 years ago.

:04:35.:04:40.

He used to work with the voluntary Dour Team, that is spreading the

:04:41.:04:44.

word of Islam. By the end of last year, the young man who had grown up

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around these quiet streets was showing an interest in radical

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Islam. On the 4th of December on his Twitter account, he posted a video

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of one of Al-Qaeda's key recruiters. The base from which the great Jihad

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from the Arabian peninsula will begin, the place from which the

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greatest Islam army will go forward. This was an American citizen who

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returned to his ancestoral hope in Yemen. He was described as the Bin

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Laden of the internet. He was killed by a drone strike in Yemen two years

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ago. Back in Portsmouth, German was still spreading the word about Islam

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as early as April. Soon after he left for Turkey and on to Syria. He

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joined one of the most radical opposition groups in Syria ISIS, the

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reference is to the Syrian region. He posted this ISIS video on

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Twitter. It is an remist group, it is part of Al-Qaeda and in Syria.

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You don't have any doubt that ISIS did form an affiliation with

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Al-Qaeda? It is an affiliate of Al-Qaeda on the ground in Syria. In

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sports mouth we contacted -- Portsmouth we contacted the family.

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I spoke to his uncle and father who work in the family takeaway business

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not far from here. Nearly wanted to be interviewed but they told me

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about his early life. They told us he went to an Islamic school, a

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Madrassa for about a year at the age of 11 or 12. He went to school and

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college around here, we was very much part of British life. After

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several days of negotiation his brother agreed to meet me. We

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arranged to speak to Iftakar in Syria by Skype. We are break

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on-line. That's good. He was ready to confirm he has joined ISIS, and

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his aim was to create an Islamic state. He refers to doula, a shorter

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term for the -- Doula, a shorter name for the group.

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He said volunteers had come to Syria from far and wide. Do you think it

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is then justified to take up arms in Syria to fight basically?

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He told me he supported the principle of Jihad when he lived in

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the UK. Before he left for Syria. He then explained that when he said

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he was a Jihadi, he meant someone committed to the Islamic principle

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of Jihad. You are quite clear that you were a Jihadi basically and you

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are now, I suppose? By early this year some people in

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mortages mouth's Muslim community were concerned. This man owns a cafe

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where Iftakar and his friends used to eat. I had my son brought to the

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chairman of the mosque and a few other people who I know, and who I

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know their sons have tried to talk to them and tell them that please

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tell your boys keep an eye on your boys and see what they are doing.

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Iftakar's brother, who is clearly sympathetic to his views said the

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west had let Syria down. Syria called for the world to get

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involved, nobody stepped in. Now that people from around the world

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are coming in, everyone is calling them terrorists, when this should

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have been a job backed by the UN, NATO, whoever, they should have come

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in three years ago when this was all going on. Nobody came to their call.

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So the Muslims came in. Iftakar said it was too late for western

:10:57.:10:59.

intervention, help would be rejected. A term which means in this

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context that forces would be attacked. Is part of the reason why

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you have felt you had to go to Syria was because the west did not

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intervene early enough? ISIS has been accused of brutality

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in some Syrian towns where it has control. Ruthless summary

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punishments of those who oppose their hardline vision of an Islamic

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state. But Iftakar's brother says ISIS does good works and they

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shouldn't be considered terrorists. Terrorists don't open schools and

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places for educating children. They don't fund kids and families. This

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is what Doula are doing. They provide the community with food. But

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winning hearts and minds can tactically go hand in hand with

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fighting. Al-Qaeda h learned, as an overall movement. It realises it

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needs to do social welfare and reach out to people. So, yes, they are on

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the ground in Syria distributing food, making sure people have

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electricity to stay warm at night in their homes, making sure people are

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well protected, fed, that they have bread, access to medical cautious

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all the civil societies that we have traditionally seen other Islamist

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groups do, Hezbollah and Hamas, never Al-Qaeda. That is something

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they are exploring and exploiting well on the ground in Syria. I asked

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Iftakar about this video posts on the net, it shows an ex-- posted on

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the net, it shows extremist group executing lorry drivers who they

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believed were Shia mums. I wouldn't shoot nobody, it wouldn't be

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something I would do. That is my stance on it. Have you ever seen

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ISIS behave in that way in Syria? British authorities view you as a

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national security threat, what would you say to that? Are you willing to

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die for this cause? If he dies in this cause he has not

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died in vain, he has died doing a good deed or act. Newsnight

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understands that four or five others from Portsmouth followed Iftakar out

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to Syria. We don't know their identities, but before they went

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they left letters for their parents. They used to meet at the local

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mosque. When we turned up last week we found Hampshire Police were there

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to talk about extremism and Syria. Some in the community told us that

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the mosque committee were slow to act about this group. I know their

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parents and I know these children also here. They come here for a

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prayer time, but I did not know what they are discussing about or

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anything about it. But you don't know what they were discussing. No I

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don't know. I was unaware of it completely. But it was enough for

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you to put some posters up saying you can't stay here? Yes. But the

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younger generations say their he willeders were out-of-touch. On

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controversial issues such as are Shias true Muslims, they were taking

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resources from the Internet. Say there was a fatwah produced from

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Saudi, we would hear it, they don't because they don't have that source

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of information. We can look around on the Internet. We found Shias are

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not Muslims, they have been classed as non-Muslims, if we tell them that

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they will say you are young and you don't know what you were talking

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about. If they were able to use the Internet they would see that the

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scolars have announced they are not Muslims.

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A radical view indeed. Though there is clearly support for this in

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speeches on the Internet, if you know where to search. The story of

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how this group of young men traded their safe lives in Portsmouth for

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the battlefields of Syria, touches on many questions, the gulf between

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young and old, the power of the internet and the lure of Jihad. We

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have our Richard Haass from the Quilliam Foundation, radicalised in

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the early 1990s and went to fight in Afghanistan. He has since sought to

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pre vent radicalisation. Any idea of how -- prevent radicalisation. Any

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idea how many men there are like this? A few hundred from the UK and

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a few hundred from other European countries. Do you judge what you

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know of them that they are danger to this country? Not all of them. We

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hope if most of them come back, those who do come back, the majority

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will find an occupation or profession. But there is certainly a

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significant danger of some of them being taught by Al-Qaeda especially

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when they are with Al-Qaeda groups that the west is a legitimate target

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and a land of war. We have seen that with the 7/7 bombers. It is

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interesting this element that was mentioned in Richard Watson's film

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there, of the power of the Internet to prevent there being one orthodox

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view which might restrain or shape behaviour. How real is that

:17:30.:17:36.

phenomenon? It is certainly real for younger generations, of course, in

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the west and the developed world. People use the Internet all the time

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and they are watching all kinds of videos, especially somewhere fairly

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marginalised like Portsmouth, from the mainstream Muslim communities. I

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lived in Portsmouth myself 15 years ago, it is fairly isolated

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community. And those young men would have probably found it exhilarating

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to watch preachers and Jihadist videos from around the world on the

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Internet and say they want to be part of that. It is the pull of

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adventure for young people to go and fight somewhere. I did that myself

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when I was younger. That was pre-9/11. These people are

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westerners and talking about "they" are not welcome here. They have that

:18:18.:18:22.

same identity crisis the Islamist ideology means they feel they can

:18:23.:18:25.

only be with Al-Qaeda fighters against the west. What they need to

:18:26.:18:29.

be is integrated British citizens and the only way to go abroad to

:18:30.:18:32.

fight is with the British Armed Forces. Yet we would have to

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recognise, wouldn't we that there is a long and not ignoble tradition of

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people going from this country to fight in foreign wars, you think

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about something out of the Spanish Civil War, people for political

:18:45.:18:48.

reasons went off to fight in the Spanish Civil War, they are not

:18:49.:18:51.

being treated in the way these young men are being considered? There is a

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kind of heroism and youthful ideaism -- idealism, much like those

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fighting in the Civil War. But post-9/11 Al-Qaeda is ideology is

:19:06.:19:10.

clear, They have incited attacks and carried out attacks in the west.

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They have recruited young men like this in Afghanistan, Afghanistan,

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Syria and other places to come and attack this country. The Glasgow

:19:19.:19:22.

bombing, and the 7/7 bombings, we have to be careful about what they

:19:23.:19:28.

may do when they come back. The Terrorism Act of 2006 allows

:19:29.:19:31.

prosecution of these young men, but nobody has been prosecuted yet. I

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think in this country we would like to see people come back and settle

:19:37.:19:40.

peacefully into jobs and things. And nobody would be too worried about

:19:41.:19:44.

that. But there is a significant danger of extremist or terrorist

:19:45.:19:47.

activity when people do come back. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now

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the Prime Minister announced today that there would be another inquiry

:19:54.:19:58.

into the unfolding nightmare at the Co-operative Bank, by our

:19:59.:20:01.

calculation that takes the number to five. Inquiries of one sort or

:20:02.:20:05.

another are what you might expect when it turns out an avowedly

:20:06.:20:10.

ethical financial institution has been run into ground by an

:20:11.:20:19.

unqualified Methodist minister with decidedly unecclesiastical tastes.

:20:20.:20:23.

The Prime Minister had a rather enjoyable Prime Minister's

:20:24.:20:26.

Questions. The first priority is to safeguard this bank and make sure it

:20:27.:20:29.

is safeguarded without using tax-payers' money. That must be the

:20:30.:20:34.

priority. My Right Honourable friend the Chancellor will be discussing

:20:35.:20:39.

with the regulators what is the appropriate form of inquiry to get

:20:40.:20:42.

to the bottom of what went wrong here. Now our reporter is taking a

:20:43.:20:48.

close interest in the story and is here now. How independent can this

:20:49.:20:53.

inquiry be? Well it is a very good question. The big question really is

:20:54.:20:58.

who is investigating who? And whether anybody can maintain a safe

:20:59.:21:04.

unembarrassing distance from any of the inquiries going on. The Treasury

:21:05.:21:09.

has initiated this inquiry, it is not clear they are at a comfortable

:21:10.:21:12.

distance and the Labour Party has a few issues. There are a few distinct

:21:13.:21:18.

issues around the Co-Op under the spotlight. One is the appointment of

:21:19.:21:23.

Paul Flowers as the chairman of the group. How did that happen, the role

:21:24.:21:27.

of the politician, the bank and the board. The other is how it ended up

:21:28.:21:34.

with a ?1. Five billion black hole when the regulators were saying you

:21:35.:21:37.

should buy branches of Lloyd's. We had a bit more from the Labour Party

:21:38.:21:41.

today, when we heard about the revelations of Paul Flowers

:21:42.:21:44.

resigning from Bradford council back in 2011 there was this question of

:21:45.:21:47.

whether he kept his membership of the Labour Party. Because he stayed

:21:48.:21:52.

as an adviser to Ed Miliband until March 2012. Now we heard earlier

:21:53.:21:56.

this week from the Labour Party that actually they just suspended his

:21:57.:21:59.

membership, that was their line. But we have spoken to the Chief Whip on

:22:00.:22:04.

Bradford City council who says that actually it was his understanding

:22:05.:22:08.

that back in 2011 Paul Flowers resigned his membership of the

:22:09.:22:17.

Labour Party. Embarrassing for the Tories too? Not so much on the issue

:22:18.:22:22.

of Paul Flowers' appointment, the other issue which is hold the Co-Op

:22:23.:22:30.

below the water line, that stemmed from the transaction of the the

:22:31.:22:33.

buying of the Britannia Building Society, we know that Ed Miliband

:22:34.:22:37.

was banging the drum for that when he was at the Treasury. The Treasury

:22:38.:22:40.

in the coalition Government said as recently as October last year that

:22:41.:22:44.

it was a transaction in the interests of Co-Op members and

:22:45.:22:47.

George Osborne can't claim not to have had an interest. We dug up a

:22:48.:22:50.

clip of George Osborne in July last year saying how good he thought he

:22:51.:23:01.

thought the purchase would be for the economy. We have been on the

:23:02.:23:04.

phones in the recent months to try to get these Lloyd's branches into

:23:05.:23:08.

the hands of the Co-Op, we want new names on the high street to deliver

:23:09.:23:12.

more choice for customer, to make sure we have got more banks out

:23:13.:23:15.

there offering good deals for people. We are very happy with this

:23:16.:23:19.

deal, it is a good thing for the British economy. What about the

:23:20.:23:23.

regulators, are they investigating themselves? The short answer is,

:23:24.:23:27.

yes. This inquiry has been arranged by the potential regulation

:23:28.:23:29.

authority. Now that's one of two bodies that was set up just at the

:23:30.:23:32.

end of last year. There is the consumer body, the financial conduct

:23:33.:23:38.

authority. And there is also the Prudential regulation authority,

:23:39.:23:41.

which is in charge of ensuring the banks don't go bust so we all have

:23:42.:23:45.

to bail them out. The potential regulation authority, which is

:23:46.:23:49.

setting up this inquiry is also full of people who were at the Financial

:23:50.:23:53.

Services Authority before, when the transaction was being approved. Mark

:23:54.:24:01.

Tabour is a campaigner for the bondholders, pensioners who wanted

:24:02.:24:05.

income from the bonds, he's not sure the regulators are in a position to

:24:06.:24:09.

investigate themselves. Well he's just disappear, but don't you worry

:24:10.:24:15.

about him. Of course all these things are retrospective, all

:24:16.:24:18.

looking back. In the meantime there are a lot of rather pressing issues

:24:19.:24:22.

going forward? Yes, there are. Looking forward we have to secure

:24:23.:24:26.

the recapitalisation, that has to be the priority. 15,000 bondholders are

:24:27.:24:31.

hoping that the hedge funds who are putting money in aren't going to

:24:32.:24:35.

lose faith and will stay with the transaction, they are bound to it,

:24:36.:24:39.

they should do. So on the 11th of December when the votes for the

:24:40.:24:43.

favour of recapitalisation, there will be money enough to keep the

:24:44.:24:46.

Co-Op alive. The ratings agencies have warned that obviously if that

:24:47.:24:51.

doesn't happen the alternative may be nationalisation, we are not there

:24:52.:24:55.

yet, if you have less than ?85,000 with the Co-Op, don't worry the

:24:56.:24:58.

Government is guarnteeing it. Now there were howls of outrage from

:24:59.:25:04.

either side of the sectarian divide today in Northern Ireland. After

:25:05.:25:07.

suggestions from the senior legal official that instead of

:25:08.:25:10.

investigating and prosecuting the police and the rest of the law

:25:11.:25:14.

machine draw a veil over some pretty hidious crimes. John larrikin the

:25:15.:25:19.

Attorney General in Belfast believes the police should give inquiry over

:25:20.:25:28.

some Should give up inquiries over some of the most atrocious crimes in

:25:29.:25:34.

the troubles. The Good Friday Agreement signed in

:25:35.:25:39.

1998 the agreement led to a number of provisions on historical

:25:40.:25:43.

killings. When paramilitary weapons were decommissioned, forensic

:25:44.:25:46.

evidence gathered couldn't legally be used in prosecutions. Nor could

:25:47.:25:51.

it be used when the IRA assisted the authorities to find the bodies of

:25:52.:25:55.

some of the disappeared. What's more, it meant that the maximum

:25:56.:25:59.

sentence that could be given to members of paramilitaries, who were

:26:00.:26:05.

prosecuted for pre-1998 offence, was just two years, even more murder.

:26:06.:26:11.

This, according to Mr Larkin makes it almost impossible to solve many

:26:12.:26:15.

of the crimes. He thinks the interests of peace would be better

:26:16.:26:18.

served by drawing a line under it all. Politicians on both sides and

:26:19.:26:23.

victims' relatives have lined up to criticise the proposal. Calling it

:26:24.:26:28.

dangerous and disgusting. Proving that even 15 years after the

:26:29.:26:32.

agreement, Northern Ireland's attempts to come to terms with its

:26:33.:26:39.

toxic past remain far from resolved. In Belfast now is the son of the

:26:40.:26:47.

lisenceor pat Finucane murdered by loyalist paramilitaries in 1989.

:26:48.:26:52.

What do you make of the proposal from the Attorney General? I'm

:26:53.:26:56.

slightly surprised that the Attorney General has sought fit to enter this

:26:57.:26:59.

debate so publicly, without any prompting. And from what it seems

:27:00.:27:04.

without any consultation with any political party or victims' group. I

:27:05.:27:09.

find it very surprising that he offers no alternative and seems to

:27:10.:27:12.

make an arbitary suggestion that not only should there be no prosecutions

:27:13.:27:17.

and that there should be no legal redress for families and victims to

:27:18.:27:20.

gain an explanation or the truth as to what happened to their loved

:27:21.:27:26.

ones. He He seems to be suggesting it as a practical course of action

:27:27.:27:32.

rather than an ethically or morally desirable course of events. You

:27:33.:27:35.

accept it will be immensely expensive and there is a law of

:27:36.:27:38.

diminishing returns in these inquiries? Well, the justifiable

:27:39.:27:44.

calls for inquiries is one thing, but I don't agree with Mr Larkin and

:27:45.:27:50.

I think what is glaring by its absence is the absence of any

:27:51.:27:55.

credible material put forward. He says perhaps families should have

:27:56.:27:59.

greater access to documents. That is incredible, and Mr Larkin will be

:28:00.:28:05.

well aware of many victims' campaigns, especially my family we

:28:06.:28:09.

have campaigned for 25 years, we have had it onfirmed by the Prime

:28:10.:28:14.

Minister that there was conillusion in the murder of my father. Without

:28:15.:28:20.

the calls for the public inquiry I don't think they would have been

:28:21.:28:23.

pressurise today provide anything close to the truth and other

:28:24.:28:31.

families feel the people. Same. -- the same. If it is a maximum of two

:28:32.:28:36.

years in prison is it worth to pursue the issue? He's trying to

:28:37.:28:40.

equate the standard to secure a criminal conviction. The two-year

:28:41.:28:44.

sentence that would follow with the inquest and inquiry system. What I

:28:45.:28:48.

find very insulting is in his interview he seems to say that to do

:28:49.:28:52.

away with inquests is to strike some sort of balance with doing away with

:28:53.:28:56.

criminal prosecutions. To me that is entering into the political arena

:28:57.:29:00.

and making a very charged comment, it is not for the role of the

:29:01.:29:03.

Attorney-General. It is possible also isn't it though that mechanisms

:29:04.:29:10.

can be pursued other than legal mechanisms through the courts and

:29:11.:29:13.

the police, there is a greater possibility of some sort of

:29:14.:29:17.

reconciliation at the end of it? I agree with that, but the sad fact is

:29:18.:29:22.

that there doesn't appear to be any political will for that to happen.

:29:23.:29:27.

The debate today again compounds and highlights the fact that political

:29:28.:29:30.

parties here, and more importantly the British and Irish Governments

:29:31.:29:34.

have yet to deal with this issue in a serious manner. And if they are

:29:35.:29:40.

committed to healing our past, then they will let families see files,

:29:41.:29:45.

they will let them have a truth. They will allow them to challenge

:29:46.:29:49.

the narrative, which invariably turns out to be a false one put

:29:50.:29:52.

forward by the state. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us

:29:53.:29:59.

thank you. Now the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, had a bit of fun at Prime

:30:00.:30:02.

Minister's Questions today by claiming that even David Cameron's

:30:03.:30:08.

friends now think he's a loser. Spots and kettles thought d -- pots

:30:09.:30:12.

and kettles thought the Conservatives. Are things changing,

:30:13.:30:17.

Ed Miliband was written off as too awkward, too brainy, too much a

:30:18.:30:24.

union man to be a winner. Then then he caught the public mood on the

:30:25.:30:28.

cost of living and made his claim to be able to delay energy prices. Does

:30:29.:30:35.

it add up to a coherent hold we will discuss that in a moment. We invited

:30:36.:30:39.

the political editor of the New Statesman to tell us what he thinks.

:30:40.:30:46.

Not every leader's name becomes an "ism", thatcherism is progress, and

:30:47.:30:53.

Blairism was achieving social justice and harnessing markets. Next

:30:54.:30:59.

to those, David Cameron, John Major look like also-rans. Ed Miliband is

:31:00.:31:07.

the unlikely leader, smuggled in by trade union bosses, not really

:31:08.:31:09.

knowing what to do and short-term tactics. Over the summer his opinion

:31:10.:31:18.

pole poll started to shrink. What was Labour going to do next, where

:31:19.:31:24.

was the fightback. Meanwhile in this cafe in North London, Ed Miliband

:31:25.:31:27.

and his advisers were working on a speech and idea that would turn his

:31:28.:31:30.

fortunes around. If we win that election in 2015 the next Labour

:31:31.:31:35.

Government will freeze gas and electricity prices until the start

:31:36.:31:45.

of 2017. That was portrayed by sceptics as a mad socialist lung

:31:46.:31:50.

back to the 1970s. But the price freeze was a hit. The Tories were

:31:51.:31:54.

wrong-footed, the terms of economic debate shifted to the cost of

:31:55.:31:58.

living. Terrain where Ed Miliband had something memorable to say and

:31:59.:32:02.

David Cameron didn't. Ed's friends say he has always been

:32:03.:32:05.

underestimated, but there was plan all along. They say he isn't

:32:06.:32:10.

bothered by the volatility of the news agenda, the froth, because he

:32:11.:32:13.

has a deeper and strategic understanding of what is wrong with

:32:14.:32:16.

Britain and what needs to be done about it. Think of it like the

:32:17.:32:21.

espresso at the bottom of this cappuccino, a double shot of

:32:22.:32:24.

intellectual rigour underneath the foam. A doctrine and programme for

:32:25.:32:33.

Government they called Miliband-ism. It takes the long view of history,

:32:34.:32:37.

it charts the story of British politics since the Second World War,

:32:38.:32:43.

as a series of grand ideolgical arcs. These campaign posters at the

:32:44.:32:47.

people's history museum in Manchester show the consensus after

:32:48.:32:52.

1945, that Government as job was to build and provide and the state was

:32:53.:32:56.

on your side. That fell apart in the 1970s a time of stagnation and

:32:57.:33:00.

division. Until Thatcher made her breakthrough. A Government of

:33:01.:33:06.

practical measures. In pursuit of mobile causes. For much of the

:33:07.:33:10.

Labour Party Blairism was a surrender to the spirit of the

:33:11.:33:15.

1980s, it idolised the big business in thestitious it taxed and spent

:33:16.:33:19.

more but never dealt with the root causes of inequality. Along comes

:33:20.:33:24.

the financial crisis that shows what turbo-capitalism runs amock. We are

:33:25.:33:28.

back in the 1970s where no-one is winning and everything is up for

:33:29.:33:31.

grabs. The dark blue line is the cost of

:33:32.:33:34.

living The light blue is the rise in wages,

:33:35.:33:49.

and the gap between is the cost of living. Ed has been accused of

:33:50.:33:55.

jargon. Are you on the side of the wealth-creators or the producers or

:33:56.:34:01.

the creditors. The coauthors of the document says there is a simplicity

:34:02.:34:07.

of the market at the core. Ed was keen we use the speeches to develop

:34:08.:34:13.

an argument. The producer speech was a controversy getting at the heart

:34:14.:34:16.

of something we thought was wrong about the way our economy worked.

:34:17.:34:20.

The one-nation speech was setting out a philosophy, if you like, an

:34:21.:34:25.

approach to governing and economic society and politics. And this year

:34:26.:34:29.

with our energy price freeze and other announcements you saw some of

:34:30.:34:32.

the policy flesh being put on the bones of that vision. So I think you

:34:33.:34:37.

can see a sequence there. If Ed is right, economic recovery won't help

:34:38.:34:41.

the Tories because the proceeds of growth won't trickle down into

:34:42.:34:46.

voters' pockets. New Labour was fine as a compromise with British

:34:47.:34:49.

capitalism when the economy was working for the majority. But it

:34:50.:34:55.

isn't any more. Ed Miliband sees an opportunity to have a new populisim

:34:56.:34:59.

of the left. Fixing broken markets and protecting consumers from

:35:00.:35:04.

corporate greed. It isn't just nostalgia for the socialism of old.

:35:05.:35:07.

It is a belief that the traditions of the left can still inspire

:35:08.:35:10.

mainstream politics in the 21st century. Miliband-ism doesn't roll

:35:11.:35:18.

off the tongue, but if Labour win the next election it could be the

:35:19.:35:22.

idea that governs Britain. I have my guests with me.

:35:23.:35:34.

Do you reckon Miliband-ism exists? It is never existing until it

:35:35.:35:37.

embodies an action. After watching the film I longed for the days when

:35:38.:35:42.

Ed Miliband was vague. The clearer gets the more I don't like him.

:35:43.:35:46.

There are two propositions that he makes. The first of which is the

:35:47.:35:51.

2008 marks a major departure, but the crash means we have entered a

:35:52.:35:54.

new era of history. The second proposition that follows from that

:35:55.:35:58.

is therefore that license is more left-wing politics in Britain. They

:35:59.:36:04.

are both empierically false. That we haven't interered a new tran --

:36:05.:36:10.

entered a new transition phase and the future doesn't belong to the

:36:11.:36:15.

left? When there is a transition point everybody believes the future

:36:16.:36:18.

belongs to them. Nobody says we have had a major transition and everybody

:36:19.:36:22.

is moving away from me! It is the fantasy of the left that we lift in

:36:23.:36:28.

a left-wing country has come true because of the failure of

:36:29.:36:31.

capitalism. It is a fantasy. I question the idea that the financial

:36:32.:36:38.

crisis in 2007/08 wasn't the cattism, if you -- cat cliff. The

:36:39.:36:45.

entire conversation in politics was things can't go back to the way they

:36:46.:36:50.

were. At the root of that was an ideology about deregulation and

:36:51.:36:54.

markets gone wrong. Why I would agree is Labour had a bit of a shock

:36:55.:36:57.

thinking that naturally if something had gone wrong with markets that

:36:58.:37:01.

meant people would suddenly swing for the left. They were surprised

:37:02.:37:05.

when UKIP turned out to be the insurgent force in British politics.

:37:06.:37:13.

For card-carrying Milibandites were here to defend his position, they

:37:14.:37:17.

would say it is not about the old left but a new populisim which can

:37:18.:37:20.

engage with the failure of markets and speak on behalf of ordinary

:37:21.:37:25.

people Will Ed Miliband be the Prime Minister after the next election? It

:37:26.:37:29.

is very likely that he will be in a Government, even if it is a

:37:30.:37:31.

Government of coalition, just because of the way the numbers

:37:32.:37:34.

through the electoral system pan out. I would say it is also possible

:37:35.:37:42.

that he won't. What I'm not sure is clear is that... He will and he

:37:43.:37:49.

won't? Let me explain that. Both are true claim Ultimately it is very

:37:50.:37:53.

hard to call, because a bunch of Conservative voters are going to

:37:54.:37:57.

vote for UKIP. A bunch of Liberal Democrat refugees will vote Labour.

:37:58.:38:01.

That means actually Ed could end up in Downing Street by accident. What

:38:02.:38:04.

I'm not sure the arguments that I have outlined will be the ideas that

:38:05.:38:10.

people will rally behind and march. This is precisely the problem, this

:38:11.:38:15.

is a man more associated with wanting an "ism" and wonky ideas

:38:16.:38:20.

than he is with governing? I think that is not a bad criticism of what

:38:21.:38:25.

the Miliband project has been about. What he would say in defence is

:38:26.:38:29.

unless you spend this time in opposition completely re-thinking

:38:30.:38:32.

what you had and what went wrong under the last Government. You will

:38:33.:38:38.

never persuade people to bring you back. The really cogent part of the

:38:39.:38:43.

Ed Miliband team is they lost that time. There was a big change, it

:38:44.:38:53.

took place after 2008. That question which is an existential question for

:38:54.:38:57.

the left, what are you for if you haven't money for the social

:38:58.:38:59.

programmes, it hasn't begun to answer. If you look at health, what

:39:00.:39:05.

beyond the sentimental agonies of Andy Burnham does the Labour Party

:39:06.:39:09.

offer. We don't know. You could write a PhD thesis about their

:39:10.:39:17.

thinking on legislation, crime. We have an absence. You can't suggest

:39:18.:39:21.

there is any ideolgical position here, if we have no guidance for

:39:22.:39:24.

what the Labour Party would do on any of those things and no notion of

:39:25.:39:28.

how it would govern the state when there was no money. If you want a

:39:29.:39:34.

apockal change that is it, the Labour Party is miles away from

:39:35.:39:40.

knowing what it wants. They are trying to erect a tripod and it is

:39:41.:39:45.

how you reform the state. They will say that is not what people are

:39:46.:39:48.

worrying about right now. They are worried about. Schools, hospitals,

:39:49.:39:53.

crime, welfare. I think they will find... What they don't want is an

:39:54.:39:57.

ideolgical crow side from the Michael Gove point of view to tear

:39:58.:40:03.

it up and start again. They want a decent well-funded school at the end

:40:04.:40:06.

of their street and services that will work and money in their pocket.

:40:07.:40:10.

What scares people on the left is not losing but winning. If you don't

:40:11.:40:14.

have guidance on what you will do on critical things then it will be a

:40:15.:40:17.

very difficult period in Government. This will be the question of fact

:40:18.:40:20.

which the left confronts if it were to come into Government. Which is it

:40:21.:40:24.

doesn't have great deal of money. It has to reform the state. It has

:40:25.:40:29.

foresworn every kind of reform of the state that it used to do in the

:40:30.:40:32.

old carnation under Tony Blair. What does it have in its place and it

:40:33.:40:36.

doesn't have the answer. That is the central question that the left will

:40:37.:40:39.

face. I think there's probably a number of people in the Conservative

:40:40.:40:43.

benches who think if they don't know what they are doing next it might

:40:44.:40:48.

not be a bad thing to let Labour sneak in, and reveal themselves as

:40:49.:40:51.

not having this programme and the whole thing fall apart. This

:40:52.:40:54.

wouldn't be a bad one for the Conservatives to lose. The missing

:40:55.:40:59.

plank of this, Miliband-ism isn't how you reform the state. What Ed

:41:00.:41:03.

would say that is not what voters are concerned about. We begin with

:41:04.:41:07.

the ideas and then we roll it out as a programme. Essentially the kind of

:41:08.:41:14.

policy you get is a few labour market economies sit in a room and

:41:15.:41:20.

go capitalism is fine but we wish you were nicer. The energy price

:41:21.:41:24.

freeze is a good example. Of course we want prices lower rather than

:41:25.:41:27.

higher, it doesn't seem to get beyond that level of banality. You

:41:28.:41:31.

end up with a policy that is commanding something into existence.

:41:32.:41:36.

In fairness they have a policy to reform the energy market, I can't

:41:37.:41:41.

disagree with what you said. That didn't last long. Thank you very

:41:42.:41:44.

much both of you. There are few enough people in the world who can

:41:45.:41:51.

boast of having sold run moneys of millions of books. John Grisham,

:41:52.:41:56.

author of one thriller after another can make that claim. His website

:41:57.:42:01.

claims with no false modesty that his first novel A Time To Kill is

:42:02.:42:06.

one of the most popular novels of our time. The next offering is Sick

:42:07.:42:13.

more Row. It has just been published here. Was it always your intention

:42:14.:42:22.

to revisit Jake Brigginss and Clanton? I think so, I didn't know

:42:23.:42:26.

when. Everything is driven by a story, you have to have a story

:42:27.:42:29.

before you write a book. For many years I thought about a sequel or

:42:30.:42:33.

another visit back to Clinton. Another visit to all those

:42:34.:42:37.

characters but there was no story. So it took a while to get the story.

:42:38.:42:41.

You like writing about the south because that is where you come from?

:42:42.:42:44.

I would much rather write about the south. Because it is what I know, it

:42:45.:42:56.

is easier at times. The stories are richer. More layered. The characters

:42:57.:43:03.

are far more fun to write about. On On the question of race, in that

:43:04.:43:13.

territory, was there still a huge race issue when you were there as a

:43:14.:43:18.

young man? I struggled with racism every day. Because the way I was

:43:19.:43:29.

raised. I was raised in an all-white world in Mississippi. We thought it

:43:30.:43:33.

would always be white. What were your parents like about that? They

:43:34.:43:39.

were wonderful people, but not the least bit tolerant towards black

:43:40.:43:50.

people. That's my DNA and the way I was raised. It took a long time to

:43:51.:43:57.

become more tolerant. Is there any way you think that A Time To Kill

:43:58.:44:10.

and even this book is about alonement? For me, for Jake. For the

:44:11.:44:15.

attitudes you were raised with? Maybe, because I'm Jake. The book

:44:16.:44:21.

was very autobiograical, a lot of white people of my generation from

:44:22.:44:28.

the Deep South still struggle with racism. And trying to overcome it.

:44:29.:44:40.

We're all-racist because we refer our race and we are quick to condemn

:44:41.:44:51.

others, we are we don't want to look at life through coloured glasses. It

:44:52.:44:56.

is difficult for me many times. And how does that manifest itself? Well,

:44:57.:45:05.

stereotype, you expect certain things out of certain people. You

:45:06.:45:14.

see a gruesome crime, you see the suspects arrested, and they are two

:45:15.:45:19.

black punks who killed a white businessman. And you think they are

:45:20.:45:26.

guilty, you know, there is a level of tremendous dislike, you know.

:45:27.:45:35.

Then you get passed that -- past that, you think maybe they are

:45:36.:45:39.

innocent, the cops have got the wrong people. Maybe you should try

:45:40.:45:41.

to understand where they came from, they probably never had a chance,

:45:42.:45:45.

they were probably born on the streets. Raised on the streets,

:45:46.:45:49.

probably never were taught right from wrong. Your initial reaction is

:45:50.:45:57.

to react negatively. To many situations. And then you have to

:45:58.:46:02.

work through it. Do you think that the election and re-election of

:46:03.:46:06.

President Obama has fundamentally changed things for black people? I

:46:07.:46:13.

don't know. It's change things for black people because there is such

:46:14.:46:23.

an enormous sense of pride and almost disbelief on the part of most

:46:24.:46:26.

black folks when he got elected, they never thought it would happen.

:46:27.:46:30.

Nobody thought it would happen ten years ago. The downside is a lot of

:46:31.:46:39.

black people thought that change would finally arrive at a certain

:46:40.:46:41.

point and change would happen overnight. But the expectations were

:46:42.:46:45.

so high that no-one could ever achieve those expectations. Thank

:46:46.:46:49.

you very much. My pleasure, always fun.

:46:50.:46:54.

You can see a longer version of our interview on our YouTube channel.

:46:55.:47:00.

That is it for tonight, unconfined joy in Hull over the news it has

:47:01.:47:05.

been named City of Culture. We asked the Hull photographic society why?

:47:06.:47:08.

They showed us. # Skies are blue

:47:09.:47:34.

# Dreams come through # While I'm holding you

:47:35.:47:44.

# In

:47:45.:47:50.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

The topics examined are: the British citizen fighting in Syria; should we give up on prosecuting some of the worst murders of the Troubles?; what now for the Co-op Bank?; and what is Ed Milibandism?

And there is an interview with John Grisham.


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