25/11/2013 Newsnight


25/11/2013

Is the deal with Iran a triumph or a sell-out? The perils of pay-day loans; Vince Cable interview; depression in sport; exorcism in Mexico; Will Young on the use of the word 'gay'.


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So, peace in our time - or is it? As all those involved claim the deal

:00:00.:00:13.

on Iran's nuclear programme a triumph, So, peace in our time - or

:00:14.:00:16.

is it? As all those involved claim the deal

:00:17.:00:19.

on Iran's nuclear programme a triumph, Israel cries "sell-out".

:00:20.:00:20.

Who is right? Payday loan companies are to have

:00:21.:00:23.

their wings clipped, but how many of their clients realise the problems

:00:24.:00:26.

they are storing up for the future just by becoming a customer? I think

:00:27.:00:30.

people would be very shocked if they knew getting a payday loan now and

:00:31.:00:34.

paying it immediately next month afterwards could jacket their

:00:35.:00:38.

ability to get a mortgage three, four, five, years in the future. We

:00:39.:00:40.

put that to the business secretary and ask him too about how the

:00:41.:00:46.

government could have miscalculated so badly on the Co-Op bank. How a

:00:47.:00:51.

cult of death in Mexico has led to the revival of exorcisms.

:00:52.:01:00.

And the singer Will Young is here to talk about the use, or misuse, n the

:01:01.:01:04.

playground. According to the French Foreign

:01:05.:01:17.

Minister, Iran could see some of the sanctions it has suffered being

:01:18.:01:21.

lifted as early as next month after the deal struck in Geneva at the

:01:22.:01:25.

weekend. William Hague seems to think it will be the new year, but

:01:26.:01:29.

it definitely looks it will happen, much to the fury of the Israelis who

:01:30.:01:34.

think the rest of the world has been duped by a nation still bent on

:01:35.:01:37.

developing nuclear weapons. There is also some unhappiness among

:01:38.:01:45.

legislators in Washington. It is not the kind of welcome

:01:46.:01:52.

William Hague usually gets on his way back in London, but in Iranian,

:01:53.:02:00.

what happened in Geneva triggered an outpouring of relief. He is perhaps

:02:01.:02:07.

in a unique position, he is the most popular Iranian diplomat in the past

:02:08.:02:14.

34 years, because he has the backing of Iran's supreme leader, and he is

:02:15.:02:18.

popular amongst the youth, among the very people who protested against

:02:19.:02:26.

the system. For President Rouhani trying to end

:02:27.:02:28.

the country's isolation, it was vital to present it as a victory. So

:02:29.:02:34.

he welcomed relatives of Iran's assassinated nuclear scientists,

:02:35.:02:37.

telling them that their sacrifice had made the Geneva deal possible.

:02:38.:02:45.

From the Foreign Minister, too, an upbeat message. The current

:02:46.:02:48.

agreement, the current plan of action, as we call it, in t distinct

:02:49.:02:56.

places, has a very clear reference to the fact that Iranian enrichment

:02:57.:03:02.

programme will continue, and will be a part of any agreement, now and in

:03:03.:03:08.

the future. Iran says the deal enshrines its

:03:09.:03:13.

right to enrich uranium, and it eases sanctions to the ctions to the

:03:14.:03:21.

tune of $6 billion or $7 billion. They pay quite a price: they freeze

:03:22.:03:27.

their uranium enrichment. Crucially, their stockpile of more highly

:03:28.:03:31.

enriched uranium will be diluted, and there will be more international

:03:32.:03:35.

inspections. Iran has clearly given the most away

:03:36.:03:39.

here. This is a serious freeze on most of Iran's nuclear capabilities,

:03:40.:03:42.

putting it further away from a bomb. It is getting comparatively little

:03:43.:03:46.

in sanctions relief, it is still losing about three times more in

:03:47.:03:50.

foregone oil revenue than it is getting in relief, and the main

:03:51.:03:54.

thing Iran has received here is a qualified right to enrich uranium -

:03:55.:03:59.

but that's about it. Israel's Prime Minister,

:04:00.:04:01.

predictably, perhaps, Haslam Belfasted the deal. But the other

:04:02.:04:07.

big sceptic in the Saudi Arabia is taking more of a wait-and-see

:04:08.:04:12.

attitude. Secretary William Hague. Back in London, William Hague

:04:13.:04:16.

underlined the diplomatic mountain that remains to be climbed. The

:04:17.:04:20.

agreement sets out the elements of a comprehensive solution which we

:04:21.:04:23.

would aim to conclude within one year. The plan of action envisages a

:04:24.:04:28.

mutually defined enrichment programme with agreed parameters and

:04:29.:04:32.

limits but only as a part of a comprehensive agreement where

:04:33.:04:34.

nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

:04:35.:04:39.

And while that negotiation goes on, nagging doubts will remain, about

:04:40.:04:48.

places like this, the Parchin military complex. Intelligence says

:04:49.:04:51.

nuclear weapons research has taken place here, but it's not covered by

:04:52.:04:55.

yesterday's deal. And images that will disturb some

:04:56.:04:59.

Iranians, too, of shaking hands with the old enemy, while the talking

:05:00.:05:07.

goes on and most sanctioning remain. Did you see Mr Zarif shaking hands

:05:08.:05:17.

with John Kerry. That is unprecedented. It shows Iran is

:05:18.:05:19.

investing in something in the long-term. I think Iran is trying to

:05:20.:05:25.

- Iran has tried to invest in a comprehensive deal after the six

:05:26.:05:28.

months; that's why it has conceded to such a deal that only allows

:05:29.:05:34.

limited sanctions. This is a holding arrangement, a leap much faith,

:05:35.:05:37.

while the really difficult details are being worked out in the months

:05:38.:05:42.

ahead - March could still -- much could still go wrong. We know the

:05:43.:05:46.

way was paved for it by secret diplomacy between America and Iran,

:05:47.:05:50.

and that relationship will prove critical next year as they push

:05:51.:05:56.

towards the comprehensive deal. If Iran seizes this opportunity, and

:05:57.:06:00.

chooses to join the global community, then we can begin to chip

:06:01.:06:04.

away at the mistrust that has existed for many, many years between

:06:05.:06:08.

our two nations. None of that is going to be easy,

:06:09.:06:12.

huge challenges remain, but we cannot close the door on diplomacy;

:06:13.:06:16.

and we cannot rule out peaceful solutions to the world's problems.

:06:17.:06:19.

We cannot commit ourselves to an endless cycle of conflict. So the

:06:20.:06:25.

Geneva talks ended with success, and they may even have opened the door

:06:26.:06:30.

to a new relationship, one that could wash away many of the

:06:31.:06:34.

conassistants of Middle East politics.

:06:35.:06:37.

-- constants of Middle East politics. The Israeli government is

:06:38.:06:43.

one of the most vocal opponents of the deal. Daniel Taub, the Israeli

:06:44.:06:47.

ambassador to the UK, is here. Why are you saying the Iranians have

:06:48.:06:50.

given up nothing when they clearly have? We are very, very concerned

:06:51.:06:55.

about this deal. The fact is what we are being presented with is a deal

:06:56.:06:58.

that doesn't require Iran to dismantle a single one of its

:06:59.:07:01.

centrifuges, not even the most advanced ones, it doesn't require it

:07:02.:07:06.

to dismantle a single aspect of its military programme, doesn't require

:07:07.:07:09.

it to dismantle a single aspect of the plutonium reactor. There were

:07:10.:07:13.

10,000 centrifuges spinning the day before this agreement; they're going

:07:14.:07:16.

to be spinning the day after this agreement. It gives us very serious

:07:17.:07:19.

cause for concern. But the question of the amount of enriched uranium,

:07:20.:07:24.

the level to which it is enriched, the development of the heavy water

:07:25.:07:28.

plant, these sort of things, they are concessions by the Iranians, are

:07:29.:07:33.

not they? I don't think we see here concessions of the nature that

:07:34.:07:36.

convince us that, in six months' time we're going to be further away

:07:37.:07:39.

from a nuclear weapon. But it is not true, as your Prime Minister claims,

:07:40.:07:43.

that they have given nothing, they clearly have given something up? On

:07:44.:07:46.

balance, this is an agreement, and you saw the people cheering in the

:07:47.:07:49.

street, you know, when the negotiators came home, and that

:07:50.:07:52.

really does raise questions, why is it that such major concessions are

:07:53.:07:58.

regarded as such a big victory? It is not everybody is cheering. The

:07:59.:08:03.

negotiators are cheering, and the politicians returning to the West

:08:04.:08:09.

ring, and the politicians returning to the West are -- Maybe people do

:08:10.:08:11.

want to avoid confrontation, and perhaps there's a risk in that. As

:08:12.:08:15.

you get closer to our region, then you see the concern rises, but for

:08:16.:08:20.

many of our neighbours as well. We don't often agree, we're thinking

:08:21.:08:23.

not only about what Iran might do in the future, but we are looking at

:08:24.:08:28.

what they are doing today: they are supporting Hezbollah, helping

:08:29.:08:32.

terror, and we're thinking - And making concessions on nuclear

:08:33.:08:36.

weapons. The question isn't whether they're making concessions, the

:08:37.:08:39.

question is are we on track to stop Iran from getting a nuclear bomb?

:08:40.:08:42.

That is what Britain has said it's committed to, that is what the

:08:43.:08:45.

United States is committed to, and that is what we want to see happen.

:08:46.:08:49.

You don't think this deal can last? The question isn't whether this

:08:50.:08:51.

particular deal can last. The question is are arrangements in

:08:52.:08:55.

place to stop Iran becoming a nuclear power, to having a nuclear

:08:56.:08:58.

bomb? That's what we want to see happen. We're in full agreement.

:08:59.:09:02.

What would have satisfied you, then? At the moment, what we want to see

:09:03.:09:07.

is an agreement or an arrangement that moves us towards that. It makes

:09:08.:09:10.

it quite clear we want to see an arrangement that stops Iran from

:09:11.:09:13.

having the capacity to develop a nuclear weapon. That means actually

:09:14.:09:17.

taking out, dismantling the infrastructure. The trouble with

:09:18.:09:20.

this agreement is really the entire machinery, the entire machinery

:09:21.:09:24.

remains in place. So the rest of the world appears to be misguided,

:09:25.:09:29.

you're the only ones who are right. Has it occurred to you that the

:09:30.:09:33.

reasons the Americans went behind your backs and had private talks

:09:34.:09:38.

with the Iranians, an unprecedented event, more or less, might be

:09:39.:09:43.

because they recognise too that you're the problem here? The fact is

:09:44.:09:46.

there can definitely be differences of opinion here, but I certainly

:09:47.:09:49.

think the closer you get to the region, the more reason we have for

:09:50.:09:52.

concern. Yes, attention is focused on this. We are the ones who do hear

:09:53.:09:57.

the supreme leader calling for our destruction. Just this week, the

:09:58.:10:03.

supreme leader described us as a rabid dog that is destined for

:10:04.:10:07.

destruction, and maybe that focuses our attention, but at the end of the

:10:08.:10:11.

day, we want the same thing that the United States wants, that Britain

:10:12.:10:13.

wants, and that is to stop Iran getting a nuclear weapon. This team

:10:14.:10:17.

you're sending to Washington, what is their mission? Their mission is

:10:18.:10:23.

to make sure we and the United States are co-ordinated in having

:10:24.:10:27.

the goals we have in common. The question is whether this is a deal

:10:28.:10:31.

that takes us two steps forwards. We're not sure that it does. We need

:10:32.:10:35.

to work together to make sure at the end of this deal - You didn't know

:10:36.:10:38.

what the United States was discussing with Iran. I am not going

:10:39.:10:41.

to talk about what we did or didn't know. What we know at the moment is

:10:42.:10:45.

that we have a common goal, and we have to work together to make it

:10:46.:10:47.

happen. Do you think you can persuade the Americans this is a

:10:48.:10:52.

deal not worth continuing with? I don't think that that is our goal.

:10:53.:10:56.

Our goal is not to try to undermine something, our goal is to work

:10:57.:11:00.

together to get something that actually works. The fact is, we are

:11:01.:11:04.

concerned, we are concerned because everything, or pretty much

:11:05.:11:07.

everything that we know about the nuclear programme in Iran today is

:11:08.:11:10.

something that was hidden from the West for years by Iran. The fact is,

:11:11.:11:17.

we only know about Natanz precisely because these things are discovered.

:11:18.:11:22.

We are concerned about going into a process without our eyes being very

:11:23.:11:26.

wide open. We don't know a great deal about the Israeli nuclear

:11:27.:11:29.

programme, do we? What we know is that this is a process that hasn't

:11:30.:11:32.

changed for decades it, hasn't threatened anybody else in the

:11:33.:11:35.

reemingon, it hasn't stopped our neighbours from trying to attack us

:11:36.:11:41.

again and again, and this is a different situation to a situation

:11:42.:11:44.

like the situation with Iran, a country which at the moment is

:11:45.:11:47.

arming terrorists, is threatening to wipe neighbours off the map, and, of

:11:48.:11:50.

course, this isn't an Israeli demand, what we are talking about is

:11:51.:11:55.

a demand which comes from the United Nations - six United Nations

:11:56.:11:57.

Security Council resolutions. That is really what we would like to see

:11:58.:12:00.

implemented. Ambassador, thank you. Not at all.

:12:01.:12:04.

Later in the programme: the singer Will Young on the use, or misuse,

:12:05.:12:09.

Not at all. ??T

:12:10.:12:13.

Now, those nice people who popped up on high streets across the country

:12:14.:12:16.

telling us how keen they are to lend us money are going to have to run

:12:17.:12:20.

along on slightly smaller profits. The government is getting the

:12:21.:12:24.

financial regulator to put a cap on what they can charge. It is only a

:12:25.:12:27.

matter of weeks since the regulator wouldn't have any truck with the

:12:28.:12:31.

idea because it considered it very intrusive. People who have been

:12:32.:12:36.

stung by so-called payday loans, which pay interest at 365 per cent

:12:37.:12:41.

or so, may be relieved, but they will be less relieved to hear

:12:42.:12:44.

evidence we've gathered at Newsnight about the harm they can do to your

:12:45.:12:48.

chances of getting a mortgage - more than 1 mortgage brokers have told us

:12:49.:12:52.

they have had clients with payday loans turned down for a mortgage.

:12:53.:13:01.

Andy Verity reports. If you borrow a tenner from Wonga

:13:02.:13:06.

now, next month, you will may back more than ?20. You will pay interest

:13:07.:13:11.

at 365 per cent, more than 50 times the price of other loans. But that

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hasn't been enough to put off 2 million payday loan customers hungry

:13:18.:13:25.

for instant credit. The Wonga economy is one of the

:13:26.:13:31.

worst symbols we have of the cost-of-listening crisis. Labour has

:13:32.:13:37.

-- The cost of living crisis. Labour has gone down hard on payday loans.

:13:38.:13:43.

Government whips ensured it was voted down. The coalition has told

:13:44.:13:48.

the Financial Conduct Authority to intervene in the market and regulate

:13:49.:13:53.

costs. We are going to have a cap on the total cost of credit. We're

:13:54.:13:58.

going to look at the whole package, to look at the arrangement and

:13:59.:14:02.

penalty fees. This is about having a banking system that works for

:14:03.:14:05.

hard-working people, make sure that some of the outrageous fees you see,

:14:06.:14:09.

and some of the absolutely unacceptable practices are dealt

:14:10.:14:12.

with, and it is all about the government being on the side of

:14:13.:14:16.

hard-working people. That surprised the industry, because the

:14:17.:14:19.

Competition Commission and the Financial Conduct Authority was

:14:20.:14:22.

supposed to be working out whether a cap was needed or not. By

:14:23.:14:25.

introducing a cap, as they have in Australia, the government has made

:14:26.:14:28.

up its mind to intervene and a market without waiting for official

:14:29.:14:31.

advice. If the objective is to drive out

:14:32.:14:38.

some rogue lenders, that has had success in Australia. What they've

:14:39.:14:42.

seen there is they have seen it hasn't driven down demand for loans

:14:43.:14:45.

so people are looking for other forms of credit and looking towards

:14:46.:14:48.

illegal lenders and that's something the government wants to be wary of.

:14:49.:14:52.

Capping the interest and fees on payday loans should help some

:14:53.:14:55.

borrowers, b cost isn't the only way that payday loans can affect your

:14:56.:14:59.

financial future. Newsnight has discovered strong evidence to show

:15:00.:15:04.

that having a payday loan won't do you any good when you're trying to

:15:05.:15:09.

apply for a mortgage. Most lenders don't say publicly they will turn

:15:10.:15:13.

down borrowers with payday loans, but the brokers who arrange half the

:15:14.:15:16.

country's mortgages are finding with most lenders, that is exactly what

:15:17.:15:24.

happens. Jonathan Clark a young couple who will taken out multiple

:15:25.:15:28.

payday loans. I was shocked at the response I got, because apart from -

:15:29.:15:34.

well, one or two said they could be acceptable subject to a credit score

:15:35.:15:37.

saying it probably won't work, but most were negative and say it would

:15:38.:15:41.

be an instant decline, regardless of their income, their conduct of their

:15:42.:15:44.

accounts, and everything else. These were major lenders? These are major

:15:45.:15:48.

high street lenders, yes. Nowhere do you say - Three weeks ago, Newsnight

:15:49.:15:55.

asked the chief operating officer of Wonga if he would warn prospective

:15:56.:16:00.

customers on their website. We will certainly have a look at that and I

:16:01.:16:04.

will come back to you. To find more evidence, we asked the trade

:16:05.:16:07.

publication Mortgage Strategy, to ask its readers, the brokers, what

:16:08.:16:12.

the lenders have been telling them. 289 of them came back, of those,

:16:13.:16:16.

nearly two thirds had had clients with payday loans turned down for a

:16:17.:16:18.

mortgage. When you take out a payday loan, it

:16:19.:16:22.

stays on your record for six years, so it can affect your mortgage

:16:23.:16:26.

application for that length of time. You would have thought customers who

:16:27.:16:30.

take out payday loans would want to know that before they take them out.

:16:31.:16:35.

Now, payday lenders pride themselves on their transparency, but do they

:16:36.:16:38.

say anything on their websites about that vitally important fact? I can't

:16:39.:16:42.

find anything. We put our evidence to the trade

:16:43.:16:45.

body that speaks for most payday lenders. We certainly need to look

:16:46.:16:50.

at this more closely, and we've asked the Council of Mortgage

:16:51.:16:53.

Lenders if they can give us any insight and the main credit

:16:54.:16:55.

reference agencies. That will help us understand the issue. Then we can

:16:56.:16:58.

work together as an industry to address it more widely. I think

:16:59.:17:02.

people would be very shocked if they knew getting a payday loan now and

:17:03.:17:06.

paying it immediately afterwards could impact their ability to get a

:17:07.:17:10.

mortgage five years in the future. I think people should be aware of

:17:11.:17:13.

that. No-one likes nasty surprises... We asked Wonga, that

:17:14.:17:18.

fun, transparent company, if they would do what they said and come

:17:19.:17:22.

back to us. They declined. It is clear to mortgage brokers that most

:17:23.:17:27.

mortgage lenders show that financially you're not lenders show

:17:28.:17:36.

that financially you're not coping. .

:17:37.:17:39.

Now the business secretary, Vince Cable, is with us. A week or so ago,

:17:40.:17:48.

the regulator thought the sort of measure that you are proposing now

:17:49.:17:51.

would have been very intrusive. Why did you change your minds? I don't

:17:52.:17:55.

think we ever thought it was very intrusive because we've already

:17:56.:17:59.

given the power to the regulator to introduce loan capping. This is the

:18:00.:18:03.

latest step in a whole series of actions to regulate this industry,

:18:04.:18:08.

and you may remember the Office of Fair Trading did a report as a

:18:09.:18:11.

result of which I think 25 companies in the industry left. We've now come

:18:12.:18:15.

forward with measures to regulate t advertising, the extent to which the

:18:16.:18:22.

lenders can go back to a person's account, and now we are introducing

:18:23.:18:28.

the cap on interest rates. Is this your departmental responsibility? It

:18:29.:18:31.

was until recent, but it's now moved into the Financial Conduct Authority

:18:32.:18:34.

which ultimately - Couldn't it be seen by many that this was your

:18:35.:18:40.

departmental responsibility until about a week ago? Yes, very

:18:41.:18:45.

recently. And it had to be moved out of your department and into the

:18:46.:18:48.

hands of George Osborne before anyone did anything. Come on. This

:18:49.:18:53.

move has been planned for two years. We introduced all the measures to

:18:54.:18:59.

regulate the industry, and cross-governmental agreement. I made

:19:00.:19:02.

it very clear we needed to listen to some of the backbenchers who were

:19:03.:19:06.

putting down amendments in parliament, engage with them, get

:19:07.:19:09.

more evidence, and as a result of the evidence that's recently come

:19:10.:19:13.

forward on the United States, and Australia, that having a cap on

:19:14.:19:16.

interest rates is practical, so there is a cross-government

:19:17.:19:20.

approach. When it was in your department, it wasn't considered

:19:21.:19:23.

necessary to do anything. We considered that there was a balance

:19:24.:19:26.

of risks. We commissioned a study from the University of Bristol that

:19:27.:19:28.

warned of some of the unintended consequences. Thank heavens for

:19:29.:19:33.

George Osborne coming to the protection of the consumer, hey? He

:19:34.:19:38.

has acted on behalf of both of us, because we were concerned that the

:19:39.:19:40.

balance of evidence now suggests that the merit - What has happened

:19:41.:19:44.

between last week and this week? Apart from the fact he has got the

:19:45.:19:49.

gig and you've lost it? I am less concerned about that than getting

:19:50.:19:52.

the right policy. What has happened over the last week, there is a lot

:19:53.:19:55.

of argument in parliament about the merits of the cap, you know, various

:19:56.:19:59.

people like the Archbishop of Canterbury are making this case. We

:20:00.:20:03.

looked at - we commissioned a study from Bristol which said there were

:20:04.:20:08.

advantages and disadvantages in an interest-rate cap. We were worried

:20:09.:20:10.

about the risks. We've looked at further evidence. A

:20:11.:20:14.

state like Florida, for example, has now found a way of looking not just

:20:15.:20:19.

at interest rates but at the various fees. The evidence that we were

:20:20.:20:23.

concerned about that this might encourage what I call the baseball

:20:24.:20:28.

bat brigade, I think if it is properly managed, doesn't have to

:20:29.:20:30.

happen. Looking at all the evidence, we've decided there is merit in

:20:31.:20:34.

having a cap. So the Archbishop of Canterbury swung the day, did he? He

:20:35.:20:39.

certainly had an influence. And George Osborne listened? We have all

:20:40.:20:43.

listened. Did you have anything to do with this decision? I was very

:20:44.:20:47.

much involved in it. I've been involved in it all the way through

:20:48.:20:49.

with Joe Swinson who is a minister in my department. But you couldn't

:20:50.:20:52.

do anything when you couldn't do anything when you were in charge. ?

:20:53.:20:55.

We had already taken all the key steps to regulate the industry. I go

:20:56.:20:59.

over them again if you like but there was the competition

:21:00.:21:02.

investigation, the move to regulate advertising, and the move to prevent

:21:03.:21:04.

companies abusing the payment system. Let me ask you about what

:21:05.:21:10.

Andy Verity discovered in that piece you saw with the mortgage brokers.

:21:11.:21:13.

Do you think it is fair that people in danger of their chances of

:21:14.:21:15.

getting a mortgage simply because they've taken out a payday loan,

:21:16.:21:18.

whether they have had any difficulty repaying it or not? Well, it isn't

:21:19.:21:24.

fair on the basis of the evidence you've just put forward. Now that

:21:25.:21:28.

the industry is being properly regulated, that should stop, and one

:21:29.:21:33.

of the key steps in the regulation is regulating advertising. So the

:21:34.:21:38.

advertising will require a company doing a payday loan to make it clear

:21:39.:21:44.

that borrowers have to seek debt advice, and if they seek debt

:21:45.:21:47.

advice, they will know the risk of imperilling their credit status.

:21:48.:21:49.

Should they have a health warning on them? That is what will effectively

:21:50.:21:56.

happen now with the advertising. Let's talk about the Co-Op bank. At

:21:57.:22:01.

the time that the Co-Op was being asked to take over the 631 branches

:22:02.:22:06.

of Lloyds, you were in favour of that? I was in favour of the general

:22:07.:22:11.

principle of Co-ops and mutuals having a bigger rolling in banking.

:22:12.:22:15.

There was no reason to assume at the time that it was invalid. If there

:22:16.:22:21.

had been any evidence of the kind of impropriety that's emerged, it would

:22:22.:22:24.

have come through the regulator, as a lot of people were claiming they

:22:25.:22:27.

knew it was a can of worms all along, but I don't think anybody had

:22:28.:22:32.

said so at the time e So you don't know? I didn't know, no, and I don't

:22:33.:22:38.

anybody did know, and the Treasury which conducted the discussions

:22:39.:22:41.

weren't aware of it. Do you happen to know how many times the Co-Op had

:22:42.:22:45.

meetings with Treasury ministers? I think there were a fairly

:22:46.:22:48.

substantial number. George Osborne said it was fewer than 30. I think

:22:49.:22:52.

it was around about that number, but I am not a Treasury minister. I was

:22:53.:22:57.

not involved. But they were having detailed discussions, certainly. So

:22:58.:23:02.

they were intimately involved in the decision? Yes, and perfectly

:23:03.:23:08.

sensibly and rightly. There was a European Commission ruling that

:23:09.:23:14.

Lloyds Bank had to sell off some of its branches; the Co-Op put

:23:15.:23:18.

themselves forward as a potential bidder, nobody initially had any

:23:19.:23:21.

reason to assume they couldn't handle it - they were a substantial

:23:22.:23:26.

branch network, reputation was good, as far as anybody was aware; the

:23:27.:23:30.

discussions proceeded, and eventually it emerged they couldn't

:23:31.:23:34.

handle it. So what we learn from that is that trying to lay all this

:23:35.:23:38.

off on the Labour Party is nonsense, really, because you guys were

:23:39.:23:41.

heavily involved in the whole project? I've never seen it as a

:23:42.:23:45.

party political issue. You may not... I've never seen it as a party

:23:46.:23:50.

political issue. As far as I was concerned, there is a general

:23:51.:23:54.

principle that, you know, the mutuals mutuals of have an important

:23:55.:23:58.

role in banking, the Co-Op bank had a good reputation. Had there been

:23:59.:24:02.

irregularities that were noticed, it would have come through the

:24:03.:24:07.

regulator, as far as I am aware they didn't signal that at the stage that

:24:08.:24:09.

the conversation with the Treasury took place. Thanks. Thank you. The

:24:10.:24:15.

news today that the England batsman Jonathan Trott has left Australia

:24:16.:24:21.

because of stress has eclipsed even the whooping, wailing, and gnashing

:24:22.:24:29.

of teeth that's followed followed this country's performance in the

:24:30.:24:36.

Ashes. This is what Andy Flowers said earlier. He has been a

:24:37.:24:39.

brilliant international batsman for England, and hopefully will continue

:24:40.:24:42.

to be a brilliant international batsman for England in the future,

:24:43.:24:46.

but he needs time away from this environment for a while. He needs

:24:47.:24:54.

time with his family; he needs time to reassess, and he needs to spend

:24:55.:24:58.

some quiet time with his family. There has been little but sympathy

:24:59.:25:02.

for Trotty, as he is inevitably known, which is a mark, perhaps of

:25:03.:25:07.

how attitudes to mental health improved. Are sports stars more

:25:08.:25:09.

vulnerable to these problems than the rest of us? Joining us to

:25:10.:25:12.

discuss this is the former professional footballer and chair of

:25:13.:25:19.

the Footballers' union, the PFA, Clarke Carr likely. Here is Sue

:25:20.:25:26.

Baker, director of Time For Change, a mental health charity. Do you

:25:27.:25:30.

think footballers and sportsmen are more vulnerable? Not at all. I think

:25:31.:25:37.

that they're equally as vulnerable as any other member of society, it

:25:38.:25:41.

is just that there's such an intense scrutiny on the industry of sport,

:25:42.:25:46.

and especially at the elite level, that when incidents do occur, people

:25:47.:25:50.

seem to be amazed because they see these idols as infallible and

:25:51.:25:54.

bastions of strength and fortitude. But it is a very exposed position if

:25:55.:25:58.

you're on a sports field of some kind with everybody in the crowd

:25:59.:26:02.

feeling they can have an attitude about you? It is an exposed

:26:03.:26:07.

position, and, yes, it's kind of like you've got to balance the

:26:08.:26:13.

circumstantial evidence around a person, and the fact that

:26:14.:26:17.

depression, let's say, is an illness in its own right, which is utterly -

:26:18.:26:23.

you know, it is got nothing to do with the circumstances that surround

:26:24.:26:26.

a person. So your suicide attempt was not, you think, specifically

:26:27.:26:30.

related to the fact that you were a sportsman? No, not at all. It is

:26:31.:26:37.

just as likely that I could have suffered depression and it would

:26:38.:26:41.

have been triggered had I been a postman, or a teacher, or in any

:26:42.:26:46.

other job in life, and also, this is not to say that sportspeople and

:26:47.:26:50.

their mental health issues are any more important than any other walk

:26:51.:26:56.

of life, you know? The stigma that surrounds mental health is still

:26:57.:26:59.

huge in general society. Sure, but it is got much better, hasn't it? It

:27:00.:27:04.

has got better but that doesn't mean we should be happy with the crumbs

:27:05.:27:07.

from the king's table. The support mechanisms that are in place still

:27:08.:27:12.

are not adequate enough to address the actual level of people who are

:27:13.:27:15.

suffering from mental health issues. Don't you think that attitudes have

:27:16.:27:21.

got better? They have, slowly, and surely we are starting to talk more

:27:22.:27:25.

openly about mental health problems, and Jonathan Trott today, and before

:27:26.:27:33.

him Michael Yardy, and Marcus Trescothick have helped up the

:27:34.:27:38.

sports world - and Clark. We have a long way before we can talk as

:27:39.:27:41.

openly about all mental health problems the same way we can

:27:42.:27:45.

physical health. The response was striking today when you saw the

:27:46.:27:49.

report, Jonathan Trott has gone home. No-one said anything other

:27:50.:27:53.

than, "Let's hope he's better soon," did they? Not really, I have to say,

:27:54.:27:56.

that's really encouraging that, actually, the world of cricket omall

:27:57.:28:03.

side has got behind him wishing him well. From what you know about the

:28:04.:28:07.

way in which mental health issues display themselves, there is

:28:08.:28:12.

something curiously gladiatorial about the batsman and the fast

:28:13.:28:18.

bowler. You're very, very exposed in a public forum, in that sort of

:28:19.:28:22.

challenge, are not you? Yes, if we look at stress, I mean, people talk

:28:23.:28:26.

about good stress and bad stress stress isn't all bad. People can

:28:27.:28:31.

thrive on stressful situations, and people at the top of their game, you

:28:32.:28:35.

know, are quite pumped up, and we are expecting people to perform at

:28:36.:28:36.

high levels. But, on t opposite side, it's

:28:37.:28:39.

perhaps when other things are happening in your life, or when

:28:40.:28:44.

there is, you know, a real medical situation going on, where that kind

:28:45.:28:50.

of stress can be counterproductive. The important thing is that all

:28:51.:28:54.

employers in sports and outside of sports know what to do and how to

:28:55.:28:59.

respond. What do you think we outside the sporting community need

:29:00.:29:02.

to learn about the stress that sports players are under? I think

:29:03.:29:10.

that outside of sport, there just needs to be a general awareness and

:29:11.:29:15.

understanding of what the spectrum of mental health issues are in

:29:16.:29:19.

general, and there needs to be an understanding that there is being a

:29:20.:29:24.

sportsperson doesn't make you immune to these. You are equally as

:29:25.:29:29.

vulnerable as anybody else. The stresses of, let's say, football, or

:29:30.:29:33.

cricket, are quite particular, but so are the stresses of a nurse, of a

:29:34.:29:38.

teacher, you know, of someone who is a carer. It is not to say that they

:29:39.:29:42.

are special or that they deserve any special attention from those outside

:29:43.:29:45.

of the industry. What is important is that they are acknowledged within

:29:46.:29:49.

the industry that people are aware of them, and they know exactly what

:29:50.:29:54.

to do when the signs and symptoms manifest themselves. Is there

:29:55.:29:59.

anything you want to add to that? It's one in four people, and it

:30:00.:30:03.

affects men as equally as it affects women. You mean one in fo people

:30:04.:30:07.

will have some sort of mental health episode or - Yes, absolutely, so one

:30:08.:30:12.

in four of us will go through it. Everybody watching tonight will know

:30:13.:30:15.

someone, if they're not going through it themselves, it's a common

:30:16.:30:19.

health issue that we need to get better at responding to. Thank you

:30:20.:30:22.

both very much. 'Poor Mexico', a long dead president

:30:23.:30:26.

is supposed to have said, 'so far from God. So close to the United

:30:27.:30:30.

Sates.' American demand for illegal drugs has has visited one of the

:30:31.:30:33.

most vicious gang wars imaginable upon the country. That in turn seems

:30:34.:30:38.

to have encouraged the growth of a cult which echoes ancient

:30:39.:30:41.

savageries. That in turn has led to the growth of religious rituals

:30:42.:30:44.

which less credulous societies might think had vanished generations ago,

:30:45.:30:47.

for there has been a revival of exorcisms. Vladimir Hernadez, of BBC

:30:48.:30:48.

Mundo reports. Death has been at the heart of

:30:49.:31:13.

Mexican culture for centuries. It has been venerated since the Aztecs.

:31:14.:31:20.

And the fastest growing cult in Mexico today is Santa Muert - Saint

:31:21.:31:30.

Death. I am in a poor area of Mexico City. It's home to one of the cult's

:31:31.:31:35.

biggest shrines. The area is riddled by drugs and crimes, but today the

:31:36.:31:47.

town is in a festive mood to celebrate S depth. She is St Death.

:31:48.:31:55.

She is said to be able to heal the sick and stop suffering.

:31:56.:32:03.

Did many people in prison follow Sanata

:32:04.:32:18.

But the surge in the saint's popularity has coincided with the

:32:19.:32:28.

rise of drug-related crime in mostly can. This journalist has written

:32:29.:32:49.

several books about the cult. How is Mexico today in terms of this

:32:50.:32:52.

tide of violent crime? A war over cocaine trafficking is

:32:53.:33:14.

sweeping through Mexico, killing thousands. Mexico's drugs war has

:33:15.:33:19.

claimed seventy 70,000 lives in the last ten years. The killings are

:33:20.:33:22.

becoming increasingly bizarre and savage.

:33:23.:33:28.

It is almost impossible for Mexicans not to be reminded of the violence

:33:29.:33:31.

that is affecting them every day. If you open a newspaper, you can find

:33:32.:33:34.

pictures of people dying in shootouts, others hanging from

:33:35.:33:41.

bridges. In some cases, the reminder that another mass grave has been

:33:42.:33:45.

found, and some pictures, they just speak for themselves.

:33:46.:33:55.

Monterey is Mexico's richest city, near the US border, and on the front

:33:56.:33:58.

line of the drugs war. Faced with mounting violence, the church here

:33:59.:34:02.

has begun to wage war on the drugs cartels and the devils. The soldiers

:34:03.:34:08.

and our police enforcement are working all the time. This Father is

:34:09.:34:14.

former vice-president of the International Association of

:34:15.:34:18.

Exorcists. He has worked with drugs traffickers who were followers of

:34:19.:34:22.

Saint Death and said to be possessed. He believes exorcism is

:34:23.:34:27.

one way of fighting the drugs war consuming the country. Saint Death

:34:28.:34:33.

is the cult being used by all our dealers, narco dealers. All the

:34:34.:34:37.

people related with all these terrible things, especially all the

:34:38.:34:43.

people who make this murders in a brutal way. We have found that most

:34:44.:34:50.

of them, if not all, most of them are related with the cult of Saint

:34:51.:34:55.

Death. He remembers one follower of the death cult particularly. He was

:34:56.:35:00.

in charge to cut in pieces the bodies, and he said that he would do

:35:01.:35:09.

it when they were alive. And he enjoyed seeing how they cry.

:35:10.:35:21.

Priests say there are now more trained exorcists in Mexico than any

:35:22.:35:24.

other country. I wanted to see one of them at work. This is one of the

:35:25.:35:34.

Mexico's most famous exorcists. People travel from across the

:35:35.:35:38.

country to see him. He told me that sometimes members of the drugs

:35:39.:35:47.

cartels attend his services. He has more credibility than most.

:35:48.:35:51.

The Vatican sent one of their leading exorcists to work with him

:35:52.:35:55.

two years ago, and he is nervous of us filming because, he says, the

:35:56.:36:01.

Vatican would not like it. (woman screams)

:36:02.:36:07.

Before long, people are vomiting, writhing

:36:08.:36:12.

on the floor and screaming, all evidence, the Father says, of

:36:13.:36:19.

demonic possession. Have you ever felt afraid when

:36:20.:36:22.

facing the devil? The Vatican says that before an

:36:23.:37:03.

exorcism, the person said to be possessed should be examined by a

:37:04.:37:06.

mental health professional. But I've seen no evidence of this happening.

:37:07.:37:12.

(woman screams) And not everyone in Mexico is

:37:13.:37:17.

convinced that the church's focus on fighting demons is helping the

:37:18.:37:24.

country in these troubled times. This man is a psychiatrist and a

:37:25.:37:30.

teacher in Mexico City. He specialises in schizophrenia and has

:37:31.:37:35.

treated people who he thinks a possessed.

:37:36.:38:20.

He also believes that exorcism could potentially help someone who is

:38:21.:38:24.

mentally ill. With drugs-related violence

:38:25.:39:07.

increasing, death seems ever present in this troubled country.

:39:08.:39:11.

Whatever Mexicans make of the cult of Saint Death or the exorcism

:39:12.:39:15.

campaign, it seems that, in a country gripped by extreme violence,

:39:16.:39:18.

many will try anything to stop the blood shed.

:39:19.:39:24.

Now, that is so gay - anyone with a child at school may well have heard

:39:25.:39:29.

the expression in the playground, or just joshing around. It doesn't mean

:39:30.:39:33.

gay in the current usage, and nor in the other sense of happy, it has

:39:34.:39:37.

evolved to mean the opposite as a term of abuse, a weapon with which

:39:38.:39:41.

to bully. Bullying, you might say, is something that can just happen,

:39:42.:39:46.

but the use of this particular word, particularly offends many who are

:39:47.:39:50.

gay. The singer Will Young is one of them. He is here, and also with us

:39:51.:40:03.

is a journalist Milo Minopolis. I don't like it, because it's linked

:40:04.:40:06.

to young people, to the description of one's sexuality, sexual

:40:07.:40:11.

preference, of wanting to sleep with a member of the same sex. There is

:40:12.:40:16.

no clear definition between the two, and this is backed up by statistics:

:40:17.:40:21.

87 per cent of young people feel when they hear the phrase eople feel

:40:22.:40:24.

when they hear the phrase "that's so gay" any use of it in a perjorative

:40:25.:40:31.

term feel like an outsider. Do you not find it troubling? Yes, I do,

:40:32.:40:34.

but that's not why I don't like this. The reason I don't like this,

:40:35.:40:41.

the problem is that being young is all about being transgressive, and

:40:42.:40:44.

naughty, and engaging in the forbidden, and it certainly was for

:40:45.:40:47.

me, and everybody I know, and the problem with these sorts of things,

:40:48.:40:52.

just at the time when young people, we're getting surveys saying that

:40:53.:40:57.

young people don't care about race, ethnicity, sexuality, and, yes, they

:40:58.:41:01.

do use these words, and they can be hurtful, and just at the point when

:41:02.:41:07.

young people are stopping caring, we are providing enormous targets by

:41:08.:41:10.

branding children of course because the other things of course is when

:41:11.:41:14.

you get these well-intentioned things that perk late down to

:41:15.:41:19.

bureaucracies in local schools and children branded racist - No, you

:41:20.:41:25.

get actions. There is a huge difference between someone being

:41:26.:41:33.

homophobic and the actions being homophobic. This isn't about

:41:34.:41:36.

punishment, it's about education. I understand that - But children are

:41:37.:41:42.

not born wanting to be prejudiced or even learn the, t phrase, "That's so

:41:43.:41:48.

gay" as meaning negative. It is taught. It's about educating people

:41:49.:41:52.

that young gay people find it offensive. I understand. I read in

:41:53.:41:58.

your Guardian column, you said that children fundamentally want to be

:41:59.:42:01.

nice to each other. I don't think that is the case. I think it is an

:42:02.:42:05.

important part of growing up, as people start with experiment with

:42:06.:42:07.

dangerous level, they position themselveses - They have to be

:42:08.:42:11.

guided. If you provide them with these enormous words on mainstream

:42:12.:42:16.

TV news stations because you've written in national newspapers, what

:42:17.:42:21.

is a kid going to do? Use it. How does it work with racism, sexism? 30

:42:22.:42:28.

years, it was used in schools when I was there and now is absolutely not

:42:29.:42:32.

tolerated through education. I think some of it works the same way. If

:42:33.:42:36.

you look last week, a headmistress or headmaster had to write a letter

:42:37.:42:41.

apologising to parents because they were threatening to brand children

:42:42.:42:45.

racist for not showing up to a multicultural event. The point of

:42:46.:42:48.

all of this stuff that it drives a wedge between people and creates a

:42:49.:42:53.

division at precisely the time when people don't care any more. We have

:42:54.:42:57.

won the battle - What battles have we won? You're putting targets on

:42:58.:43:02.

gay people's backs by presenting this tantalising naughty thing that

:43:03.:43:06.

young people are going to look at and want to call each other. I am so

:43:07.:43:09.

puzzled by your definition of what it is to be naughty. There's a huge

:43:10.:43:14.

difference between stealing a boiled sweet from the local newsagent and

:43:15.:43:18.

doing something that is offensive to over, let's say, 2 million gay

:43:19.:43:22.

people in the country. You know, what's wrong with that? If

:43:23.:43:27.

someone is being offensive towards someone, that's not being naughty,

:43:28.:43:30.

that should be highlighted, and pointed out, not punished, not - I

:43:31.:43:34.

don't know what the targets are. But the real effect of what you're doing

:43:35.:43:37.

is to police language. You say you sort of dismissed this - it is to

:43:38.:43:41.

police language when, and look, obviously what you're doing comes

:43:42.:43:44.

from the best possible place, right. It. That is patronising. It's not,

:43:45.:43:49.

because I agree with you that this is offensive and awful, but the

:43:50.:43:52.

problem is when it perk rates down in the bureaucracies and the

:43:53.:43:56.

incompetence of schools. What are the bureaucracies? bureaucracies?

:43:57.:44:01.

For, kids being branded racist if their parents don't send them to

:44:02.:44:06.

multicultural awareness days. That's one example. A worry would be that

:44:07.:44:12.

schools start to codify this stuff, that people get homophobic notes in

:44:13.:44:16.

their school record because they called somebody gay in the

:44:17.:44:21.

playground. It has happened. I can't predict every case in the school,

:44:22.:44:26.

but what I can predict, given Stonewall's who I am doing this

:44:27.:44:32.

campaign with, histor five years they spent on a school working on

:44:33.:44:39.

homophobic language, and the homophobic language has gone down.

:44:40.:44:45.

You're telling children, you're also educating. You will produce more

:44:46.:44:49.

free-thinking, free-willed young people who will accept people for

:44:50.:44:52.

who they are. It's a funny definition of free thinking clamping

:44:53.:44:56.

down on language, isn't it? You wrote yourself that language is

:44:57.:44:59.

everything, that's all we have, and clamping down on the ways that

:45:00.:45:03.

people use to express themselves, however ugly it is, is an essential

:45:04.:45:07.

part - Where is the clamping down? You guys are going to have to

:45:08.:45:10.

continue this discussion. We're going for a drink now!

:45:11.:45:14.

Thank you both very much. That's it for tonight. Before we go,

:45:15.:45:18.

spare a thought for the recently installed Sports Minister, Helen

:45:19.:45:22.

Grant who made the schoolgirl error of turning up for a television

:45:23.:45:27.

interview with her local ITV news programme without first swotting up

:45:28.:45:37.

on sporting trivia. Who is the Wimbledon tennis champion. I know

:45:38.:45:41.

that Andy Murray did it for us, and that is the most important thing.

:45:42.:45:48.

Who are the FA Cup holders at the moment? Come on, help... FA Cup

:45:49.:45:54.

holders, Manchester United because it's my favourite club. Who is the

:45:55.:46:03.

England Rugby Union captain? Which Paralympian won most gold medals at

:46:04.:46:14.

London 2012? Dave Weir. Good guess,

:46:15.:46:16.

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