Browse content similar to 25/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
So, peace in our time - or is it? As all those involved claim the deal | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
on Iran's nuclear programme a triumph, So, peace in our time - or | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
is it? As all those involved claim the deal | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
on Iran's nuclear programme a triumph, Israel cries "sell-out". | :00:20. | :00:20. | |
Who is right? Payday loan companies are to have | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
their wings clipped, but how many of their clients realise the problems | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
they are storing up for the future just by becoming a customer? I think | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
people would be very shocked if they knew getting a payday loan now and | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
paying it immediately next month afterwards could jacket their | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
ability to get a mortgage three, four, five, years in the future. We | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
put that to the business secretary and ask him too about how the | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
government could have miscalculated so badly on the Co-Op bank. How a | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
cult of death in Mexico has led to the revival of exorcisms. | :00:52. | :01:00. | |
And the singer Will Young is here to talk about the use, or misuse, n the | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
playground. According to the French Foreign | :01:05. | :01:17. | |
Minister, Iran could see some of the sanctions it has suffered being | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
lifted as early as next month after the deal struck in Geneva at the | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
weekend. William Hague seems to think it will be the new year, but | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
it definitely looks it will happen, much to the fury of the Israelis who | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
think the rest of the world has been duped by a nation still bent on | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
developing nuclear weapons. There is also some unhappiness among | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
legislators in Washington. It is not the kind of welcome | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
William Hague usually gets on his way back in London, but in Iranian, | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
what happened in Geneva triggered an outpouring of relief. He is perhaps | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
in a unique position, he is the most popular Iranian diplomat in the past | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
34 years, because he has the backing of Iran's supreme leader, and he is | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
popular amongst the youth, among the very people who protested against | :02:19. | :02:26. | |
the system. For President Rouhani trying to end | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
the country's isolation, it was vital to present it as a victory. So | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
he welcomed relatives of Iran's assassinated nuclear scientists, | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
telling them that their sacrifice had made the Geneva deal possible. | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
From the Foreign Minister, too, an upbeat message. The current | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
agreement, the current plan of action, as we call it, in t distinct | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
places, has a very clear reference to the fact that Iranian enrichment | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
programme will continue, and will be a part of any agreement, now and in | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
the future. Iran says the deal enshrines its | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
right to enrich uranium, and it eases sanctions to the ctions to the | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
tune of $6 billion or $7 billion. They pay quite a price: they freeze | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
their uranium enrichment. Crucially, their stockpile of more highly | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
enriched uranium will be diluted, and there will be more international | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
inspections. Iran has clearly given the most away | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
here. This is a serious freeze on most of Iran's nuclear capabilities, | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
putting it further away from a bomb. It is getting comparatively little | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
in sanctions relief, it is still losing about three times more in | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
foregone oil revenue than it is getting in relief, and the main | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
thing Iran has received here is a qualified right to enrich uranium - | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
but that's about it. Israel's Prime Minister, | :04:00. | :04:01. | |
predictably, perhaps, Haslam Belfasted the deal. But the other | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
big sceptic in the Saudi Arabia is taking more of a wait-and-see | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
attitude. Secretary William Hague. Back in London, William Hague | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
underlined the diplomatic mountain that remains to be climbed. The | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
agreement sets out the elements of a comprehensive solution which we | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
would aim to conclude within one year. The plan of action envisages a | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
mutually defined enrichment programme with agreed parameters and | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
limits but only as a part of a comprehensive agreement where | :04:33. | :04:34. | |
nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
And while that negotiation goes on, nagging doubts will remain, about | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
places like this, the Parchin military complex. Intelligence says | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
nuclear weapons research has taken place here, but it's not covered by | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
yesterday's deal. And images that will disturb some | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
Iranians, too, of shaking hands with the old enemy, while the talking | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
goes on and most sanctioning remain. Did you see Mr Zarif shaking hands | :05:08. | :05:17. | |
with John Kerry. That is unprecedented. It shows Iran is | :05:18. | :05:19. | |
investing in something in the long-term. I think Iran is trying to | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
- Iran has tried to invest in a comprehensive deal after the six | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
months; that's why it has conceded to such a deal that only allows | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
limited sanctions. This is a holding arrangement, a leap much faith, | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
while the really difficult details are being worked out in the months | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
ahead - March could still -- much could still go wrong. We know the | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
way was paved for it by secret diplomacy between America and Iran, | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
and that relationship will prove critical next year as they push | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
towards the comprehensive deal. If Iran seizes this opportunity, and | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
chooses to join the global community, then we can begin to chip | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
away at the mistrust that has existed for many, many years between | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
our two nations. None of that is going to be easy, | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
huge challenges remain, but we cannot close the door on diplomacy; | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
and we cannot rule out peaceful solutions to the world's problems. | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
We cannot commit ourselves to an endless cycle of conflict. So the | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
Geneva talks ended with success, and they may even have opened the door | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
to a new relationship, one that could wash away many of the | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
conassistants of Middle East politics. | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
-- constants of Middle East politics. The Israeli government is | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
one of the most vocal opponents of the deal. Daniel Taub, the Israeli | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
ambassador to the UK, is here. Why are you saying the Iranians have | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
given up nothing when they clearly have? We are very, very concerned | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
about this deal. The fact is what we are being presented with is a deal | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
that doesn't require Iran to dismantle a single one of its | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
centrifuges, not even the most advanced ones, it doesn't require it | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
to dismantle a single aspect of its military programme, doesn't require | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
it to dismantle a single aspect of the plutonium reactor. There were | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
10,000 centrifuges spinning the day before this agreement; they're going | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
to be spinning the day after this agreement. It gives us very serious | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
cause for concern. But the question of the amount of enriched uranium, | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
the level to which it is enriched, the development of the heavy water | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
plant, these sort of things, they are concessions by the Iranians, are | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
not they? I don't think we see here concessions of the nature that | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
convince us that, in six months' time we're going to be further away | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
from a nuclear weapon. But it is not true, as your Prime Minister claims, | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
that they have given nothing, they clearly have given something up? On | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
balance, this is an agreement, and you saw the people cheering in the | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
street, you know, when the negotiators came home, and that | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
really does raise questions, why is it that such major concessions are | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
regarded as such a big victory? It is not everybody is cheering. The | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
negotiators are cheering, and the politicians returning to the West | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
ring, and the politicians returning to the West are -- Maybe people do | :08:10. | :08:11. | |
want to avoid confrontation, and perhaps there's a risk in that. As | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
you get closer to our region, then you see the concern rises, but for | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
many of our neighbours as well. We don't often agree, we're thinking | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
not only about what Iran might do in the future, but we are looking at | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
what they are doing today: they are supporting Hezbollah, helping | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
terror, and we're thinking - And making concessions on nuclear | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
weapons. The question isn't whether they're making concessions, the | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
question is are we on track to stop Iran from getting a nuclear bomb? | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
That is what Britain has said it's committed to, that is what the | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
United States is committed to, and that is what we want to see happen. | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
You don't think this deal can last? The question isn't whether this | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
particular deal can last. The question is are arrangements in | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
place to stop Iran becoming a nuclear power, to having a nuclear | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
bomb? That's what we want to see happen. We're in full agreement. | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
What would have satisfied you, then? At the moment, what we want to see | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
is an agreement or an arrangement that moves us towards that. It makes | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
it quite clear we want to see an arrangement that stops Iran from | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
having the capacity to develop a nuclear weapon. That means actually | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
taking out, dismantling the infrastructure. The trouble with | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
this agreement is really the entire machinery, the entire machinery | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
remains in place. So the rest of the world appears to be misguided, | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
you're the only ones who are right. Has it occurred to you that the | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
reasons the Americans went behind your backs and had private talks | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
with the Iranians, an unprecedented event, more or less, might be | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
because they recognise too that you're the problem here? The fact is | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
there can definitely be differences of opinion here, but I certainly | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
think the closer you get to the region, the more reason we have for | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
concern. Yes, attention is focused on this. We are the ones who do hear | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
the supreme leader calling for our destruction. Just this week, the | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
supreme leader described us as a rabid dog that is destined for | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
destruction, and maybe that focuses our attention, but at the end of the | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
day, we want the same thing that the United States wants, that Britain | :10:12. | :10:13. | |
wants, and that is to stop Iran getting a nuclear weapon. This team | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
you're sending to Washington, what is their mission? Their mission is | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
to make sure we and the United States are co-ordinated in having | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
the goals we have in common. The question is whether this is a deal | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
that takes us two steps forwards. We're not sure that it does. We need | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
to work together to make sure at the end of this deal - You didn't know | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
what the United States was discussing with Iran. I am not going | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
to talk about what we did or didn't know. What we know at the moment is | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
that we have a common goal, and we have to work together to make it | :10:46. | :10:47. | |
happen. Do you think you can persuade the Americans this is a | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
deal not worth continuing with? I don't think that that is our goal. | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
Our goal is not to try to undermine something, our goal is to work | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
together to get something that actually works. The fact is, we are | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
concerned, we are concerned because everything, or pretty much | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
everything that we know about the nuclear programme in Iran today is | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
something that was hidden from the West for years by Iran. The fact is, | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
we only know about Natanz precisely because these things are discovered. | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
We are concerned about going into a process without our eyes being very | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
wide open. We don't know a great deal about the Israeli nuclear | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
programme, do we? What we know is that this is a process that hasn't | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
changed for decades it, hasn't threatened anybody else in the | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
reemingon, it hasn't stopped our neighbours from trying to attack us | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
again and again, and this is a different situation to a situation | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
like the situation with Iran, a country which at the moment is | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
arming terrorists, is threatening to wipe neighbours off the map, and, of | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
course, this isn't an Israeli demand, what we are talking about is | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
a demand which comes from the United Nations - six United Nations | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
Security Council resolutions. That is really what we would like to see | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
implemented. Ambassador, thank you. Not at all. | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
Later in the programme: the singer Will Young on the use, or misuse, | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
Not at all. ??T | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
Now, those nice people who popped up on high streets across the country | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
telling us how keen they are to lend us money are going to have to run | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
along on slightly smaller profits. The government is getting the | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
financial regulator to put a cap on what they can charge. It is only a | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
matter of weeks since the regulator wouldn't have any truck with the | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
idea because it considered it very intrusive. People who have been | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
stung by so-called payday loans, which pay interest at 365 per cent | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
or so, may be relieved, but they will be less relieved to hear | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
evidence we've gathered at Newsnight about the harm they can do to your | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
chances of getting a mortgage - more than 1 mortgage brokers have told us | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
they have had clients with payday loans turned down for a mortgage. | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
Andy Verity reports. If you borrow a tenner from Wonga | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
now, next month, you will may back more than ?20. You will pay interest | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
at 365 per cent, more than 50 times the price of other loans. But that | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
hasn't been enough to put off 2 million payday loan customers hungry | :13:18. | :13:25. | |
for instant credit. The Wonga economy is one of the | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
worst symbols we have of the cost-of-listening crisis. Labour has | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
-- The cost of living crisis. Labour has gone down hard on payday loans. | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
Government whips ensured it was voted down. The coalition has told | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
the Financial Conduct Authority to intervene in the market and regulate | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
costs. We are going to have a cap on the total cost of credit. We're | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
going to look at the whole package, to look at the arrangement and | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
penalty fees. This is about having a banking system that works for | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
hard-working people, make sure that some of the outrageous fees you see, | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
and some of the absolutely unacceptable practices are dealt | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
with, and it is all about the government being on the side of | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
hard-working people. That surprised the industry, because the | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
Competition Commission and the Financial Conduct Authority was | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
supposed to be working out whether a cap was needed or not. By | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
introducing a cap, as they have in Australia, the government has made | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
up its mind to intervene and a market without waiting for official | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
advice. If the objective is to drive out | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
some rogue lenders, that has had success in Australia. What they've | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
seen there is they have seen it hasn't driven down demand for loans | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
so people are looking for other forms of credit and looking towards | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
illegal lenders and that's something the government wants to be wary of. | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
Capping the interest and fees on payday loans should help some | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
borrowers, b cost isn't the only way that payday loans can affect your | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
financial future. Newsnight has discovered strong evidence to show | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
that having a payday loan won't do you any good when you're trying to | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
apply for a mortgage. Most lenders don't say publicly they will turn | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
down borrowers with payday loans, but the brokers who arrange half the | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
country's mortgages are finding with most lenders, that is exactly what | :15:17. | :15:24. | |
happens. Jonathan Clark a young couple who will taken out multiple | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
payday loans. I was shocked at the response I got, because apart from - | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
well, one or two said they could be acceptable subject to a credit score | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
saying it probably won't work, but most were negative and say it would | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
be an instant decline, regardless of their income, their conduct of their | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
accounts, and everything else. These were major lenders? These are major | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
high street lenders, yes. Nowhere do you say - Three weeks ago, Newsnight | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
asked the chief operating officer of Wonga if he would warn prospective | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
customers on their website. We will certainly have a look at that and I | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
will come back to you. To find more evidence, we asked the trade | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
publication Mortgage Strategy, to ask its readers, the brokers, what | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
the lenders have been telling them. 289 of them came back, of those, | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
nearly two thirds had had clients with payday loans turned down for a | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
mortgage. When you take out a payday loan, it | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
stays on your record for six years, so it can affect your mortgage | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
application for that length of time. You would have thought customers who | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
take out payday loans would want to know that before they take them out. | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
Now, payday lenders pride themselves on their transparency, but do they | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
say anything on their websites about that vitally important fact? I can't | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
find anything. We put our evidence to the trade | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
body that speaks for most payday lenders. We certainly need to look | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
at this more closely, and we've asked the Council of Mortgage | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
Lenders if they can give us any insight and the main credit | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
reference agencies. That will help us understand the issue. Then we can | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
work together as an industry to address it more widely. I think | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
people would be very shocked if they knew getting a payday loan now and | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
paying it immediately afterwards could impact their ability to get a | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
mortgage five years in the future. I think people should be aware of | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
that. No-one likes nasty surprises... We asked Wonga, that | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
fun, transparent company, if they would do what they said and come | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
back to us. They declined. It is clear to mortgage brokers that most | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
mortgage lenders show that financially you're not lenders show | :17:28. | :17:36. | |
that financially you're not coping. . | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
Now the business secretary, Vince Cable, is with us. A week or so ago, | :17:40. | :17:48. | |
the regulator thought the sort of measure that you are proposing now | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
would have been very intrusive. Why did you change your minds? I don't | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
think we ever thought it was very intrusive because we've already | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
given the power to the regulator to introduce loan capping. This is the | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
latest step in a whole series of actions to regulate this industry, | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
and you may remember the Office of Fair Trading did a report as a | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
result of which I think 25 companies in the industry left. We've now come | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
forward with measures to regulate t advertising, the extent to which the | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
lenders can go back to a person's account, and now we are introducing | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
the cap on interest rates. Is this your departmental responsibility? It | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
was until recent, but it's now moved into the Financial Conduct Authority | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
which ultimately - Couldn't it be seen by many that this was your | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
departmental responsibility until about a week ago? Yes, very | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
recently. And it had to be moved out of your department and into the | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
hands of George Osborne before anyone did anything. Come on. This | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
move has been planned for two years. We introduced all the measures to | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
regulate the industry, and cross-governmental agreement. I made | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
it very clear we needed to listen to some of the backbenchers who were | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
putting down amendments in parliament, engage with them, get | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
more evidence, and as a result of the evidence that's recently come | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
forward on the United States, and Australia, that having a cap on | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
interest rates is practical, so there is a cross-government | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
approach. When it was in your department, it wasn't considered | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
necessary to do anything. We considered that there was a balance | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
of risks. We commissioned a study from the University of Bristol that | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
warned of some of the unintended consequences. Thank heavens for | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
George Osborne coming to the protection of the consumer, hey? He | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
has acted on behalf of both of us, because we were concerned that the | :19:39. | :19:40. | |
balance of evidence now suggests that the merit - What has happened | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
between last week and this week? Apart from the fact he has got the | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
gig and you've lost it? I am less concerned about that than getting | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
the right policy. What has happened over the last week, there is a lot | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
of argument in parliament about the merits of the cap, you know, various | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
people like the Archbishop of Canterbury are making this case. We | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
looked at - we commissioned a study from Bristol which said there were | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
advantages and disadvantages in an interest-rate cap. We were worried | :20:09. | :20:10. | |
about the risks. We've looked at further evidence. A | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
state like Florida, for example, has now found a way of looking not just | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
at interest rates but at the various fees. The evidence that we were | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
concerned about that this might encourage what I call the baseball | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
bat brigade, I think if it is properly managed, doesn't have to | :20:29. | :20:30. | |
happen. Looking at all the evidence, we've decided there is merit in | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
having a cap. So the Archbishop of Canterbury swung the day, did he? He | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
certainly had an influence. And George Osborne listened? We have all | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
listened. Did you have anything to do with this decision? I was very | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
much involved in it. I've been involved in it all the way through | :20:48. | :20:49. | |
with Joe Swinson who is a minister in my department. But you couldn't | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
do anything when you couldn't do anything when you were in charge. ? | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
We had already taken all the key steps to regulate the industry. I go | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
over them again if you like but there was the competition | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
investigation, the move to regulate advertising, and the move to prevent | :21:03. | :21:04. | |
companies abusing the payment system. Let me ask you about what | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
Andy Verity discovered in that piece you saw with the mortgage brokers. | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
Do you think it is fair that people in danger of their chances of | :21:14. | :21:15. | |
getting a mortgage simply because they've taken out a payday loan, | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
whether they have had any difficulty repaying it or not? Well, it isn't | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
fair on the basis of the evidence you've just put forward. Now that | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
the industry is being properly regulated, that should stop, and one | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
of the key steps in the regulation is regulating advertising. So the | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
advertising will require a company doing a payday loan to make it clear | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
that borrowers have to seek debt advice, and if they seek debt | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
advice, they will know the risk of imperilling their credit status. | :21:48. | :21:49. | |
Should they have a health warning on them? That is what will effectively | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
happen now with the advertising. Let's talk about the Co-Op bank. At | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
the time that the Co-Op was being asked to take over the 631 branches | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
of Lloyds, you were in favour of that? I was in favour of the general | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
principle of Co-ops and mutuals having a bigger rolling in banking. | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
There was no reason to assume at the time that it was invalid. If there | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
had been any evidence of the kind of impropriety that's emerged, it would | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
have come through the regulator, as a lot of people were claiming they | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
knew it was a can of worms all along, but I don't think anybody had | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
said so at the time e So you don't know? I didn't know, no, and I don't | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
anybody did know, and the Treasury which conducted the discussions | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
weren't aware of it. Do you happen to know how many times the Co-Op had | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
meetings with Treasury ministers? I think there were a fairly | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
substantial number. George Osborne said it was fewer than 30. I think | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
it was around about that number, but I am not a Treasury minister. I was | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
not involved. But they were having detailed discussions, certainly. So | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
they were intimately involved in the decision? Yes, and perfectly | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
sensibly and rightly. There was a European Commission ruling that | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
Lloyds Bank had to sell off some of its branches; the Co-Op put | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
themselves forward as a potential bidder, nobody initially had any | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
reason to assume they couldn't handle it - they were a substantial | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
branch network, reputation was good, as far as anybody was aware; the | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
discussions proceeded, and eventually it emerged they couldn't | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
handle it. So what we learn from that is that trying to lay all this | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
off on the Labour Party is nonsense, really, because you guys were | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
heavily involved in the whole project? I've never seen it as a | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
party political issue. You may not... I've never seen it as a party | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
political issue. As far as I was concerned, there is a general | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
principle that, you know, the mutuals mutuals of have an important | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
role in banking, the Co-Op bank had a good reputation. Had there been | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
irregularities that were noticed, it would have come through the | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
regulator, as far as I am aware they didn't signal that at the stage that | :24:08. | :24:09. | |
the conversation with the Treasury took place. Thanks. Thank you. The | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
news today that the England batsman Jonathan Trott has left Australia | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
because of stress has eclipsed even the whooping, wailing, and gnashing | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
of teeth that's followed followed this country's performance in the | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
Ashes. This is what Andy Flowers said earlier. He has been a | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
brilliant international batsman for England, and hopefully will continue | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
to be a brilliant international batsman for England in the future, | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
but he needs time away from this environment for a while. He needs | :24:47. | :24:54. | |
time with his family; he needs time to reassess, and he needs to spend | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
some quiet time with his family. There has been little but sympathy | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
for Trotty, as he is inevitably known, which is a mark, perhaps of | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
how attitudes to mental health improved. Are sports stars more | :25:08. | :25:09. | |
vulnerable to these problems than the rest of us? Joining us to | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
discuss this is the former professional footballer and chair of | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
the Footballers' union, the PFA, Clarke Carr likely. Here is Sue | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
Baker, director of Time For Change, a mental health charity. Do you | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
think footballers and sportsmen are more vulnerable? Not at all. I think | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
that they're equally as vulnerable as any other member of society, it | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
is just that there's such an intense scrutiny on the industry of sport, | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
and especially at the elite level, that when incidents do occur, people | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
seem to be amazed because they see these idols as infallible and | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
bastions of strength and fortitude. But it is a very exposed position if | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
you're on a sports field of some kind with everybody in the crowd | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
feeling they can have an attitude about you? It is an exposed | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
position, and, yes, it's kind of like you've got to balance the | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
circumstantial evidence around a person, and the fact that | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
depression, let's say, is an illness in its own right, which is utterly - | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
you know, it is got nothing to do with the circumstances that surround | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
a person. So your suicide attempt was not, you think, specifically | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
related to the fact that you were a sportsman? No, not at all. It is | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
just as likely that I could have suffered depression and it would | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
have been triggered had I been a postman, or a teacher, or in any | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
other job in life, and also, this is not to say that sportspeople and | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
their mental health issues are any more important than any other walk | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
of life, you know? The stigma that surrounds mental health is still | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
huge in general society. Sure, but it is got much better, hasn't it? It | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
has got better but that doesn't mean we should be happy with the crumbs | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
from the king's table. The support mechanisms that are in place still | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
are not adequate enough to address the actual level of people who are | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
suffering from mental health issues. Don't you think that attitudes have | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
got better? They have, slowly, and surely we are starting to talk more | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
openly about mental health problems, and Jonathan Trott today, and before | :27:26. | :27:33. | |
him Michael Yardy, and Marcus Trescothick have helped up the | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
sports world - and Clark. We have a long way before we can talk as | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
openly about all mental health problems the same way we can | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
physical health. The response was striking today when you saw the | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
report, Jonathan Trott has gone home. No-one said anything other | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
than, "Let's hope he's better soon," did they? Not really, I have to say, | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
that's really encouraging that, actually, the world of cricket omall | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
side has got behind him wishing him well. From what you know about the | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
way in which mental health issues display themselves, there is | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
something curiously gladiatorial about the batsman and the fast | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
bowler. You're very, very exposed in a public forum, in that sort of | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
challenge, are not you? Yes, if we look at stress, I mean, people talk | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
about good stress and bad stress stress isn't all bad. People can | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
thrive on stressful situations, and people at the top of their game, you | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
know, are quite pumped up, and we are expecting people to perform at | :28:36. | :28:36. | |
high levels. But, on t opposite side, it's | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
perhaps when other things are happening in your life, or when | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
there is, you know, a real medical situation going on, where that kind | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
of stress can be counterproductive. The important thing is that all | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
employers in sports and outside of sports know what to do and how to | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
respond. What do you think we outside the sporting community need | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
to learn about the stress that sports players are under? I think | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
that outside of sport, there just needs to be a general awareness and | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
understanding of what the spectrum of mental health issues are in | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
general, and there needs to be an understanding that there is being a | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
sportsperson doesn't make you immune to these. You are equally as | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
vulnerable as anybody else. The stresses of, let's say, football, or | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
cricket, are quite particular, but so are the stresses of a nurse, of a | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
teacher, you know, of someone who is a carer. It is not to say that they | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
are special or that they deserve any special attention from those outside | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
of the industry. What is important is that they are acknowledged within | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
the industry that people are aware of them, and they know exactly what | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
to do when the signs and symptoms manifest themselves. Is there | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
anything you want to add to that? It's one in four people, and it | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
affects men as equally as it affects women. You mean one in fo people | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
will have some sort of mental health episode or - Yes, absolutely, so one | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
in four of us will go through it. Everybody watching tonight will know | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
someone, if they're not going through it themselves, it's a common | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
health issue that we need to get better at responding to. Thank you | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
both very much. 'Poor Mexico', a long dead president | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
is supposed to have said, 'so far from God. So close to the United | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
Sates.' American demand for illegal drugs has has visited one of the | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
most vicious gang wars imaginable upon the country. That in turn seems | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
to have encouraged the growth of a cult which echoes ancient | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
savageries. That in turn has led to the growth of religious rituals | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
which less credulous societies might think had vanished generations ago, | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
for there has been a revival of exorcisms. Vladimir Hernadez, of BBC | :30:48. | :30:48. | |
Mundo reports. Death has been at the heart of | :30:49. | :31:13. | |
Mexican culture for centuries. It has been venerated since the Aztecs. | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
And the fastest growing cult in Mexico today is Santa Muert - Saint | :31:21. | :31:30. | |
Death. I am in a poor area of Mexico City. It's home to one of the cult's | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
biggest shrines. The area is riddled by drugs and crimes, but today the | :31:36. | :31:47. | |
town is in a festive mood to celebrate S depth. She is St Death. | :31:48. | :31:55. | |
She is said to be able to heal the sick and stop suffering. | :31:56. | :32:03. | |
Did many people in prison follow Sanata | :32:04. | :32:18. | |
But the surge in the saint's popularity has coincided with the | :32:19. | :32:28. | |
rise of drug-related crime in mostly can. This journalist has written | :32:29. | :32:49. | |
several books about the cult. How is Mexico today in terms of this | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
tide of violent crime? A war over cocaine trafficking is | :32:53. | :33:14. | |
sweeping through Mexico, killing thousands. Mexico's drugs war has | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
claimed seventy 70,000 lives in the last ten years. The killings are | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
becoming increasingly bizarre and savage. | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
It is almost impossible for Mexicans not to be reminded of the violence | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
that is affecting them every day. If you open a newspaper, you can find | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
pictures of people dying in shootouts, others hanging from | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
bridges. In some cases, the reminder that another mass grave has been | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
found, and some pictures, they just speak for themselves. | :33:46. | :33:55. | |
Monterey is Mexico's richest city, near the US border, and on the front | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
line of the drugs war. Faced with mounting violence, the church here | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
has begun to wage war on the drugs cartels and the devils. The soldiers | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
and our police enforcement are working all the time. This Father is | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
former vice-president of the International Association of | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
Exorcists. He has worked with drugs traffickers who were followers of | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
Saint Death and said to be possessed. He believes exorcism is | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
one way of fighting the drugs war consuming the country. Saint Death | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
is the cult being used by all our dealers, narco dealers. All the | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
people related with all these terrible things, especially all the | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
people who make this murders in a brutal way. We have found that most | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
of them, if not all, most of them are related with the cult of Saint | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
Death. He remembers one follower of the death cult particularly. He was | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
in charge to cut in pieces the bodies, and he said that he would do | :35:01. | :35:09. | |
it when they were alive. And he enjoyed seeing how they cry. | :35:10. | :35:21. | |
Priests say there are now more trained exorcists in Mexico than any | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
other country. I wanted to see one of them at work. This is one of the | :35:25. | :35:34. | |
Mexico's most famous exorcists. People travel from across the | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
country to see him. He told me that sometimes members of the drugs | :35:39. | :35:47. | |
cartels attend his services. He has more credibility than most. | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
The Vatican sent one of their leading exorcists to work with him | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
two years ago, and he is nervous of us filming because, he says, the | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
Vatican would not like it. (woman screams) | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
Before long, people are vomiting, writhing | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
on the floor and screaming, all evidence, the Father says, of | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
demonic possession. Have you ever felt afraid when | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
facing the devil? The Vatican says that before an | :36:23. | :37:03. | |
exorcism, the person said to be possessed should be examined by a | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
mental health professional. But I've seen no evidence of this happening. | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
(woman screams) And not everyone in Mexico is | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
convinced that the church's focus on fighting demons is helping the | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
country in these troubled times. This man is a psychiatrist and a | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
teacher in Mexico City. He specialises in schizophrenia and has | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
treated people who he thinks a possessed. | :37:36. | :38:20. | |
He also believes that exorcism could potentially help someone who is | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
mentally ill. With drugs-related violence | :38:25. | :39:07. | |
increasing, death seems ever present in this troubled country. | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
Whatever Mexicans make of the cult of Saint Death or the exorcism | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
campaign, it seems that, in a country gripped by extreme violence, | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
many will try anything to stop the blood shed. | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
Now, that is so gay - anyone with a child at school may well have heard | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
the expression in the playground, or just joshing around. It doesn't mean | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
gay in the current usage, and nor in the other sense of happy, it has | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
evolved to mean the opposite as a term of abuse, a weapon with which | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
to bully. Bullying, you might say, is something that can just happen, | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
but the use of this particular word, particularly offends many who are | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
gay. The singer Will Young is one of them. He is here, and also with us | :39:51. | :40:03. | |
is a journalist Milo Minopolis. I don't like it, because it's linked | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
to young people, to the description of one's sexuality, sexual | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
preference, of wanting to sleep with a member of the same sex. There is | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
no clear definition between the two, and this is backed up by statistics: | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
87 per cent of young people feel when they hear the phrase eople feel | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
when they hear the phrase "that's so gay" any use of it in a perjorative | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
term feel like an outsider. Do you not find it troubling? Yes, I do, | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
but that's not why I don't like this. The reason I don't like this, | :40:35. | :40:41. | |
the problem is that being young is all about being transgressive, and | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
naughty, and engaging in the forbidden, and it certainly was for | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
me, and everybody I know, and the problem with these sorts of things, | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
just at the time when young people, we're getting surveys saying that | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
young people don't care about race, ethnicity, sexuality, and, yes, they | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
do use these words, and they can be hurtful, and just at the point when | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
young people are stopping caring, we are providing enormous targets by | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
branding children of course because the other things of course is when | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
you get these well-intentioned things that perk late down to | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
bureaucracies in local schools and children branded racist - No, you | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
get actions. There is a huge difference between someone being | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
homophobic and the actions being homophobic. This isn't about | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
punishment, it's about education. I understand that - But children are | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
not born wanting to be prejudiced or even learn the, t phrase, "That's so | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
gay" as meaning negative. It is taught. It's about educating people | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
that young gay people find it offensive. I understand. I read in | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
your Guardian column, you said that children fundamentally want to be | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
nice to each other. I don't think that is the case. I think it is an | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
important part of growing up, as people start with experiment with | :42:06. | :42:07. | |
dangerous level, they position themselveses - They have to be | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
guided. If you provide them with these enormous words on mainstream | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
TV news stations because you've written in national newspapers, what | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
is a kid going to do? Use it. How does it work with racism, sexism? 30 | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
years, it was used in schools when I was there and now is absolutely not | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
tolerated through education. I think some of it works the same way. If | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
you look last week, a headmistress or headmaster had to write a letter | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
apologising to parents because they were threatening to brand children | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
racist for not showing up to a multicultural event. The point of | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
all of this stuff that it drives a wedge between people and creates a | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
division at precisely the time when people don't care any more. We have | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
won the battle - What battles have we won? You're putting targets on | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
gay people's backs by presenting this tantalising naughty thing that | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
young people are going to look at and want to call each other. I am so | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
puzzled by your definition of what it is to be naughty. There's a huge | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
difference between stealing a boiled sweet from the local newsagent and | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
doing something that is offensive to over, let's say, 2 million gay | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
people in the country. You know, what's wrong with that? If | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
someone is being offensive towards someone, that's not being naughty, | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
that should be highlighted, and pointed out, not punished, not - I | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
don't know what the targets are. But the real effect of what you're doing | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
is to police language. You say you sort of dismissed this - it is to | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
police language when, and look, obviously what you're doing comes | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
from the best possible place, right. It. That is patronising. It's not, | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
because I agree with you that this is offensive and awful, but the | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
problem is when it perk rates down in the bureaucracies and the | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
incompetence of schools. What are the bureaucracies? bureaucracies? | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
For, kids being branded racist if their parents don't send them to | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
multicultural awareness days. That's one example. A worry would be that | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
schools start to codify this stuff, that people get homophobic notes in | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
their school record because they called somebody gay in the | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
playground. It has happened. I can't predict every case in the school, | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
but what I can predict, given Stonewall's who I am doing this | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
campaign with, histor five years they spent on a school working on | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
homophobic language, and the homophobic language has gone down. | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
You're telling children, you're also educating. You will produce more | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
free-thinking, free-willed young people who will accept people for | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
who they are. It's a funny definition of free thinking clamping | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
down on language, isn't it? You wrote yourself that language is | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
everything, that's all we have, and clamping down on the ways that | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
people use to express themselves, however ugly it is, is an essential | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
part - Where is the clamping down? You guys are going to have to | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
continue this discussion. We're going for a drink now! | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
Thank you both very much. That's it for tonight. Before we go, | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
spare a thought for the recently installed Sports Minister, Helen | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
Grant who made the schoolgirl error of turning up for a television | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
interview with her local ITV news programme without first swotting up | :45:28. | :45:37. | |
on sporting trivia. Who is the Wimbledon tennis champion. I know | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
that Andy Murray did it for us, and that is the most important thing. | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
Who are the FA Cup holders at the moment? Come on, help... FA Cup | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
holders, Manchester United because it's my favourite club. Who is the | :45:55. | :46:03. | |
England Rugby Union captain? Which Paralympian won most gold medals at | :46:04. | :46:14. | |
London 2012? Dave Weir. Good guess, | :46:15. | :46:16. |