26/11/2013 Newsnight


26/11/2013

Kirsty Wark talks to Scottish first minister Alex Salmond about his government's blueprint for independence.


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This programme contains strong language.

:00:00.:00:07.

Out today, the Scottish government's blueprint for an independent

:00:08.:00:11.

country, but is it a game-changer? Journalists from all over the world

:00:12.:00:16.

descended on Glasgow to hear the pitch for independence. A Newsnight,

:00:17.:00:21.

Alex Salmond throws down the gauntlet. We are entitled to a share

:00:22.:00:25.

of the asset. This is as much our pound as London's pound. It's

:00:26.:00:29.

certainly not George Osborne's pound. The children's commissioner

:00:30.:00:34.

for England find out children as young as 11 mete out sexual violence

:00:35.:00:38.

to others just as young. Loads of stories, you will be at a party, and

:00:39.:00:43.

see one girl and go to different boys. I've been at a party and seen

:00:44.:00:46.

one girl go through about ten different boys in one night. We talk

:00:47.:00:50.

to a former gang member and David Lamy MP. Another twist in the

:00:51.:00:57.

plebgate row: one out of the eight officers involved will face criminal

:00:58.:01:04.

charges. After a ?250,000 spend and one year on, we still don't know who

:01:05.:01:07.

said what at the gates of Downing Street. My reputation was destroyed.

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I was vilified relentlessly over 33 days.

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Good evening, it's not War and Peace, and it's very long, and its

:01:28.:01:30.

critics have dubbed it a work of fiction, but today the Scottish

:01:31.:01:33.

government made clear what they want to happen if Scotland votes yes next

:01:34.:01:39.

September. The document reiterates the desire to keep the pound and a

:01:40.:01:43.

currency union and retain membership of the EU and NATO, but the desire

:01:44.:01:46.

and the hard reality might be very different. What we do know for sure

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is that an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy and

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EastEnders. Allan Little is in Edinburgh. What is actually new?

:01:56.:02:00.

What did we learn today? Not very much for a document that runs to 670

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pages, except this: the detail, the detail is new, and it is new that it

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is a comprehensive account of the shape, and character, and spirit of

:02:11.:02:16.

the kind of society and independent Scotland that Alex Salmond and

:02:17.:02:19.

others want to see. This is meant to be a comprehensive account. This is

:02:20.:02:22.

meant to ask all the questions that people ask when they say, "I haven't

:02:23.:02:27.

yet got information information." Ask when they say, "I haven't yet

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got information information. " -- enough information." They hope the

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Scottish public will turn to this online or in any paper forms it

:02:33.:02:35.

comes in, and seek reassurance about the kind of ambitions that the

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Scottish government has. One big thing that is new is that they're

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promising what they call a revolutionary spans, an extension of

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childcare for children under school age so that they can encourage more

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women to go back into the workplace on a kind of Scandinavian model, if

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you like, encourage more women to become part of the productive

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economy, and help the kind of economic growth that they would want

:02:57.:02:59.

in a independent Scotland, and it would pay for many of the

:03:00.:03:02.

commitments that they make in this document. What is new, really, is

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the comprehensive nature of the aspiration that they are make. What

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do you think is their biggest asset? It was impressive watching Salmond

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who, as everybody knows, is a master political operator, and increasingly

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Nicola Sturgeon, speak today, because although it was an

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exhilarating moment for their supporters, you could taste the

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excitement in the air. Many of the members of the Scottish government

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were there and for them it was a major landmark on their long, long

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march for what they think is independence - remember, many have

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been in it for 30 to 40 years. Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon spoke

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dispassionately, almost as if they wanted to take the political grand

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standing out of it and speak as if there was nothing controversial

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left, nothing was controversial at all from the way they were speaking,

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speaking about it as if it was a technocratic now from now to

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independence. I think the danger for the Better Together campaign, the

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pro-union campaign is that as the campaign goes on, they will be

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sounding more and more negative, and many pro-independence people will

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see this as a simple choice between the sunny optimism of the

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possibility of a new start, as they see it, and the can you remember

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amongonly fearful caution of the Curmogeolnly fearful caution of the

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Better Together, and people are perceiving it that way. And It had

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to fall to several of our team to drill down into the white

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It is a big moment in the independence debate, and I think

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people will enjoy reading. It's going to be a substantial mark in

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our politics. I would say the most important political document in

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Scotland's history. Described in some quarters as the most

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significant document in Scottish history. The other great analogy is

:04:59.:05:04.

to the declaration of independence. Ultimately, at the heart of this

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debate, there's only one question, or one choice: do we, the people who

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live and work in Scotland, believe that we are the best people to take

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the big decisions about our future? This is a brochure for a country

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that doesn't yet exist - an independent Scotland. A 650-page

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travel guide to try and tempt people to live here. Many opinion polls

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suggest, for plenty, they don't yet wish to be here. This brochure will

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try to change that. The guide book is clear: an

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independent Scotland would keep the pound.

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We've putting forward an objective position of why a sterling area is

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not just in the best interests of Scotland but the best interests of

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the rest of the United Kingdom. But critics watching on campaigning to

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keep the union are simply not convinced. I think the most

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significant area of weakness is the fundamental one, and that is what

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currency would we use? If we didn't agree to the terms and conditions

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like the Eurozone, a currency union, what would that mean? Would we have

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our own currency? Join the Euro. They need to answer these questions,

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and they've ducked it. Amongst the big stuff, the pound, the Euro-or

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whatever it might be rattling around your pocket, Alex Salmond wanted to

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set out some economic goodies he would promise as for him, so there

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would be help for childcare, he would raise the personal allowance

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for income tax, he would raise the minimum wage at least in line with

:06:43.:06:45.

inflation. He would also cut corporation tax and cut the air

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passenger duty - retail political offers rather than just a big

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constitutional argument. But the question is how will this be

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paid for? The general principles that were set out for reform of the

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tax and welfare system in an independent Scotland were very

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laudable but there was an awful lot more detail about areas where they

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would choose to give money away, so in particular mentioning cutting the

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corporation tax rate, cutting employers' National Insurance, and

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reversing the bedroom tax that the current UK government has

:07:20.:07:24.

implemented in the longer run, what there was less mention of in the

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white paper is the fact that Scotland may have to face a more

:07:28.:07:31.

challenging fiscal tightening over the next few decades than the UK as

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a whole would. So what does our travel guide say about defence and

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relations with the European Union? Well, it sets out that we will

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continue to be a member of the EU. There's a view to remove Trident

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within the first term of the Scottish Parliament following

:07:50.:07:51.

independence, and Scotland would take its place as one of the many

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non-nuclear members of NATO. Why do we think Scotland will be

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welcomed into NATO? It's a North Atlantic treaty organisation. It

:08:03.:08:07.

would have a slight difficulty if a large part of the territorial area

:08:08.:08:10.

of the north Atlantic weren't part of NATO. But some are sceptical, and

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think the nationalists are naive. 670 pages of assertion, uncertainty.

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The much-vaunted legal opinion on our EU membership, noticeable only

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by its absence. The brochure commits an independent

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Scotland to create a new public service broadcaster. Scotland will

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remain a constitutional monarchy, and there will be no border checks.

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All of this isn't just about weighty fodder like the public finances,

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sovereignty, and nationalism, what about being able to see Strictly

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Come Dancing? Panic not, says Alex Salmond, that will still be on the

:08:57.:09:00.

telly. What about using a passport to visit here or travel elsewhere

:09:01.:09:03.

around the parish isles? You wouldn't need one. What about the

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National Anthem. There wouldn't be one at first. That would be decided

:09:07.:09:13.

after the referendum. Of of us watch Scottish football. I

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know Alex Hansen is leaving Match of the Day, but not to watch this

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regular slot, and have to be reduced to endless Celtic versus Rangers

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games, that could be a deciding factor in the vote for some of us.

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So plenty for people here to consider before next autumn's

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referendum, and plenty of reading for those consulting this guide book

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on Scotland's possible future. Earlier, I spoke to Alex Salmond and

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put it to him that today's white paper was little more than a wish

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list and won't necessarily deliver on a single promise. No, it is a

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very substantial document that accounts to people not just how we

:09:53.:09:55.

get to independence but perhaps crucially, and this is why it is a

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game-change, of the sort of things we can do with the independent

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Scotland once we have it, and the commits on childcare, pensions,

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getting back to work, unbidding the bedroom tax - all of these are

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things which are of huge interest to hundreds of thousands of families in

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Scotland, they're a positive vision and that's why we will win the

:10:17.:10:19.

campaign. They're a vision, and they will be determined by a lot of

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factor before that, not least things, for example, currency union.

:10:25.:10:27.

That is your plan A. You say you have no plan B. But currency union

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requires the goodwill of the rest of the United Kingdom, and they may not

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be minded to give you it. In fact, right now, they're saying it is not

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an option. We put forward an argument as to why it is in the

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interests of Scotland and in the interests of the rest of the UK to

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retain sterling, the pound, as our currency. That option of course was

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described as logical and desirable and Newsnight by Alistair Darling,

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the leader of the no campaign earlier this year. I know he has

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been got at by the campaign fever since, but nonetheless, at the going

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to have to decide why he thought it was logical and desirable in January

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but now argue, the opposite position. What we put forward is the

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consistent argument that keeping the pound is as much in our interests as

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in the interests of the rest of the UK, and on that basis it is a

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reasonable proposition to put forward. If the rest of the United

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Kingdom doesn't agree, then what happens? Because there seems to be a

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situation where you're saying if they don't agree, then you may well

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withhold the debt. Isn't that just a straightforward thuggish threat? No.

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The arguments mutual self-interest and trade. England is our biggest

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market; we're England's second biggest market. It would cost the UK

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businesses ?500 million in transaction costs to try and force

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Scotland out of a currency union. Secondly, we provide about 39

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billion of protection for the sterling balance of payments from

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oil and gas, it would knock a huge hole and sterling if that wasn't

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available. Thirdly, Kirsty, it is an argument about assets and

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liabilities: the Bank of England, sterling, is part of the assets of

:12:02.:12:04.

the country. We are entitled to a share of the assets. This is as much

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our pound as London's pound. It is certainly not George Osborne's

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pound, and the reason that we have accounted for paying a share of t

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liabilities, financing the incredible debt that George Osborne

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and Alistair Darling have built up - Can you go into these negotiations

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when you've already said, and it is not a gesture of goodwill, you said

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you're going to cut corporation tax for up to three per cent, that will,

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in order to try and put businesses a better position than they are in

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England, that's not a gesture of goodwill, is it? I was going to

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complete the point that we are saying we will accept the share of

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assets. We are entitled to that, and therefore will accept a share of

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finance and liabilities of the enormous debt that the two previous

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chancellors have built up. On the question of corporation tax, we put

:12:47.:12:49.

forward a competitive policy for Scotland. There have been many

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countries - Belgium and Luxembourg, for example - shared a currency for

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generations and had different rates of corporation tax because they did

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what they thought was best for their economies and their countries.

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That's a perfectly viable thing to put forward. Of course, the UK

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government can put forward its taxation policies as it wishes.

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That's the way you can handle these things: do what is in the interests

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of your economy to generate jobs and investment. Let's take something

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like Trident. What has been said in the Scotland's future is we are

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going for the speediest, safe withdrawal of nuclear weapons from

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Scotland, and you say it should be within the lifetime of the first

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parliament, 2020. What if that is not the speediest, safest

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withdrawal. Will you be prepared to delay? Safety will be paramount.

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That's why we expressed the commitment in the way that we do,

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the speediest safe withdrawal, but estimates have been provided for

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that, including by Commons committees which have very short

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timescale indeed. So much of this is comes down to Scotland voting yes,

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that you might have to trade Trident for staying? Currency union. It

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might be as crude as that? No, you know the position of a lot of the

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Scottish public, the SNP, and the Green Party, and others well enough

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to know that, for us, the nuclear weapons are something that must be

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removed from Scotland as speedily and as safely as possible. Let's

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deal with Europe now. What you're banking on is Scotland, an

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independent Scotland, being a continuum in the EU. You can't

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guarantee that, either. You may have to reapply, and if you do reapply,

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you have to to have the unanimous say-so of the other member

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countries. Spain might say no? Well, we put forward a position under

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Article 48 which obviously is consistent with the advice we've

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received from the Lord Advocate of Scotland which puts forward the

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mechanism by which Scotland can continue as a member of the European

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Union. Of course, there is a threat to Scotland's membership of the

:14:43.:14:45.

European Union, and that comes quite clearly from the commitment by David

:14:46.:14:49.

Cameron to hold an in-out referendum in the UK. That is the threat to

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Scotland's membership of the European Union. This is all

:14:53.:14:59.

predicated on a particular position of whoever is Chancellor or on the

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question of currency, Trident. You can't deliver any of these things,

:15:06.:15:11.

and elements like the bedroom tax, and childcare, they're promises that

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you might not be able to deliver either? Well, obviously, we can bin

:15:16.:15:19.

the bedroom tax. When Scotland becomes independent, we will have

:15:20.:15:23.

control of our social security. We can decide not to have a bedroom tax

:15:24.:15:26.

and do that in the first year. On the childcare, that's an interesting

:15:27.:15:32.

debate to open up. We point out if we move to Scandinavian levels of

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childcare, we attract far more women back into the worse workforce, give

:15:37.:15:40.

people an equal chance to work, that generates up to ?700 million much

:15:41.:15:45.

extra revenue. Right now under devolution, that will fall into the

:15:46.:15:51.

maws of George Osborne. It will accrue to a Scottish exchequer and

:15:52.:15:57.

make the policy affordable and sustainable. This is no more than an

:15:58.:16:01.

SNP manifesto. If Scotland were to vote yes next September, then on 24

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March 2016, you would have independence day, you would have a

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general election less than six weeks later, you might not be in power?

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We've not acknowledged that point, we embrace that point in the white

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paper published today, and, of course, the whole essence of

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independence is that people would have the choice. We would always in

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Scotland get the government that we vote for as opposed to having

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governments foisted upon us like at present which we didn't vote for.

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Alex Salmond, thank you very much. Great pleasure, thank you. Boys are

:16:29.:16:33.

predators, girls are prey - that remark by one teenager sums up the

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findings of a two-year report into young people and sexual violence

:16:39.:16:42.

published today by the children's commissioner for England. It makes

:16:43.:16:45.

for some tough reading, pointed to thousands of cases of invisible

:16:46.:16:48.

sexual abuse committed by children on children which the authorities

:16:49.:16:50.

are missing. Those problems are greatest in parts

:16:51.:16:55.

of the country where street gangs operate with impunity.

:16:56.:16:58.

This film contains some strong language.

:16:59.:17:11.

Hidden away in towns and cities, behind closed doors, and shut

:17:12.:17:19.

windows, what is described by the Children's

:17:20.:17:20.

Hidden away in towns and cities, behind closed doors, and shut

:17:21.:17:25.

windows, what is described by the Children's Commissioner as an

:17:26.:17:26.

"invisible problem, a disturbing reality".

:17:27.:17:28.

A young woman considering, or even belonging to a gang faces the

:17:29.:17:33.

possibility of rape. That can be rape and a relationship

:17:34.:17:37.

or group rape. If a girl is easy, and they boast about possibility of

:17:38.:17:40.

rape. That can be rape and a relationship

:17:41.:17:43.

or group rape. If a girl is easy, and they boast about it, "I got this

:17:44.:17:46.

girl" the friends are like, "I might as well have a go." They get

:17:47.:17:49.

involved, tell their friends, and the girl is getting the name quick.

:17:50.:17:54.

If you're seen as a slag, you can risk a lot with loads of different

:17:55.:17:57.

men, she's not getting rid of that name, to every boy she will be

:17:58.:18:01.

nothing but sex. Today's report is warning that some

:18:02.:18:06.

forms of sexual violence are being completely missed by police, social

:18:07.:18:11.

workers, teachers, everyone. Teenagers often face abuse not from

:18:12.:18:15.

much older men but from other young teenagers, and much of the time,

:18:16.:18:19.

that abuse is hidden away, well beneath the surface.

:18:20.:18:27.

Michelle - not her real name - had just started secondary school when

:18:28.:18:32.

she was taken in a park in East London by a gang of boys aged 13 and

:18:33.:18:36.

14. It happened more than once. I was out with friends. Some of the

:18:37.:18:40.

girls knew the boys, so they approached us.

:18:41.:18:44.

As soon as I saw them, I had this kind of I don't know, impression

:18:45.:18:47.

that they were not nice people and they were kind of aggressive. They

:18:48.:18:50.

told us to get on the bus. We went to the local park and...

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Then it just happened. I don't know how to say it.

:18:59.:19:02.

Did you think of it as rape at the time? No. I didn't know what rape

:19:03.:19:08.

was at the time. To me, it was just something terrible because it made

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me feel upset. It frightened me. I said no.

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But it wasn't a thing where they were listening to me, like I could

:19:15.:19:20.

cry. I could scream. They wasn't ever listening. Did you ever come

:19:21.:19:24.

forward and tell anyone about it? I didn't tell anyone. All the young

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people knew it was going on. But they made out I wanted to do it.

:19:28.:19:32.

And they didn't know the full story. But as far as me telling somebody, I

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didn't feel like I could. Michelle's Nan eventually found out and two of

:19:39.:19:43.

the gang were convicted. Certainliual violence is not just a

:19:44.:19:49.

big-city phenomenon, but today's report based on two years of field

:19:50.:19:52.

work by the University of Bedfordshire suggests teenagers are

:19:53.:19:55.

particularly at risk in neighbourhoods like this one in

:19:56.:19:57.

South London where local gangs have power and influence.

:19:58.:20:06.

The authors spoke to 188 young people in six research sites across

:20:07.:20:10.

England. Of those prepared to talk about sex, 65 per cent knew of cases

:20:11.:20:16.

of girlsing pressured into sexual activity. 41 per cent identified

:20:17.:20:21.

cases of rape; 44 per cent of gang rape. We are all trained youth

:20:22.:20:25.

workers, social workers, we've got a lot of experience. We would very -

:20:26.:20:30.

we were very genuinely shocked by the amount of sexual violence that

:20:31.:20:34.

we were coming across. As time went on, we began to find that we were

:20:35.:20:39.

accepting it almost as normal in a similar sort of way as the young

:20:40.:20:44.

people were, and that really frightened us. Speak to teenagers in

:20:45.:20:49.

places like this, and what comes across is just how routine that sort

:20:50.:20:52.

of abuse can feel. Loads of stories like you will be at

:20:53.:20:57.

a party, and you'll see one girl go through different boys, like I've

:20:58.:21:00.

been at a party, and I've seen one girl go through about ten different

:21:01.:21:03.

boys in one night. You don't know if that boy has drugged them in their

:21:04.:21:07.

drink or spiked their drink, and then like they obviously take them

:21:08.:21:10.

to the bedroom and then they get all their mates to do it. Would anyone

:21:11.:21:14.

ever report it? No, because they're too scared because what about if

:21:15.:21:17.

they threaten them while they're doing it, if you go to the police, I

:21:18.:21:21.

will do it again but with different people, I am going to slap you up.

:21:22.:21:24.

Not just that, if you report it, like not just could happen to you

:21:25.:21:28.

but what could happen to your family, you get labelled as a snake.

:21:29.:21:32.

Once you've got labelled as a snake, you're known as a snake, you can't

:21:33.:21:35.

be trusted because you run to the police. You're just their little

:21:36.:21:39.

like informer. You're nothing. You're just a snake.

:21:40.:21:43.

The scale of this problem still is not clear, but the best guess is

:21:44.:21:48.

that 5,000 young women are at risk of gang-related sexual violence in

:21:49.:21:51.

London alone. There is no national figure.

:21:52.:21:56.

Very loving, very safe to live in... Cherie Johnson grew up in

:21:57.:22:00.

South London. Her mother spent time in prison for smuggling drugs. Her

:22:01.:22:04.

dad was a well-known dealer. She qualified as a probation officer and

:22:05.:22:09.

social worker, and now runs her own project helping other girls trying

:22:10.:22:13.

to leave that ceremony environment. Girls have two roles: you are either

:22:14.:22:19.

the victim of the group or you're a perpetrator with the group. So if

:22:20.:22:22.

you're a victim, you will be used as a sex toy, you will be passed

:22:23.:22:27.

around, you will be shared, you will be encouraged to hold drugs, store

:22:28.:22:31.

guns, and stuff like that. If you're the perpetrator, your status is a

:22:32.:22:35.

little bit more high. For example, the males in the gangs respect you a

:22:36.:22:39.

little bit more. Just one in 12 of the young people

:22:40.:22:43.

in the study said they would ever talk about or report an incident of

:22:44.:22:48.

sexual violence. Young women often viewed abuse from boyfriends or

:22:49.:22:51.

partners as simply part of life. Those victims were often seen as

:22:52.:22:55.

having brought harm on themselves by their own actions.

:22:56.:23:01.

Among some young men, there is a sharp distinction between

:23:02.:23:04.

girlfriends who might be treated with respect and another type of

:23:05.:23:08.

girl used for casual sex. Those connected to gangs would only speak

:23:09.:23:13.

openly if we agreed to hide their identities.

:23:14.:23:17.

You've got your hood, girls. Would you class as hood chicks? And your

:23:18.:23:21.

wife which is a girl you keep at home and nobody knows.

:23:22.:23:24.

You don't bring her involved or anything.

:23:25.:23:27.

She's the one you treat nice. What is the difference in the way you

:23:28.:23:32.

treat the hood girls and the wives in terms of the way they get

:23:33.:23:36.

treated? It's the way you speak to them.

:23:37.:23:39.

What you do after you finish after having sex with them. They don't

:23:40.:23:42.

mean nothing to you. It is just there for convenience.

:23:43.:23:47.

It could happen anywhere, just the boys chilling together, and they're

:23:48.:23:51.

they're lying, you know, I want to get my Dick out, let's phone

:23:52.:23:55.

whoever, phone someone and say, "Yes, we are here chilling, come and

:23:56.:24:00.

suck our dicks." Then the girl will turn up, she will know what it is

:24:01.:24:04.

before she even got there, so I don't know. It's like they think it

:24:05.:24:07.

is cool. They don't see it as a problem.

:24:08.:24:11.

If you're in a gang and you see a girl who is a slag, then you ask

:24:12.:24:15.

them, are you on it? They will be like, yes, yes, yes, and then take

:24:16.:24:22.

them wherever, in the block, you and your friends, and just lock them,

:24:23.:24:27.

innit. I know people that have done it. They enjoyed it. What do the

:24:28.:24:31.

girls say afterwards? Nothing. They just get ready and leave. Are they

:24:32.:24:36.

upset, look upset, worried or not? Normal day to them, isn't it? If

:24:37.:24:40.

they wear short skirts, high heels, belly tops, that's putting yourself

:24:41.:24:46.

out there saying, "Look at me, come and lock me." Do they deserve to get

:24:47.:24:51.

- Raped? Of course they do, not really, but if you're like that

:24:52.:24:57.

every day then expect to get raped - innit. It might be the way they want

:24:58.:25:01.

to dress. Yes, true, never know, though.

:25:02.:25:06.

Of course, not all teenage boys living in estates will think like

:25:07.:25:10.

that. These three are not directly connected to gangs at all but all

:25:11.:25:15.

have grown up in areas where gang culture is strong, and losing your

:25:16.:25:19.

virginity is crucial for your reputation.

:25:20.:25:22.

In school mainly, like when you're in school them times, like there's a

:25:23.:25:27.

lot of pressure on them times, and then if you haven't lost it as you

:25:28.:25:31.

get older, people look at you like you've got no game, nothing like

:25:32.:25:36.

this, and so it's embarrassing sort of thing. Another thing, if you're

:25:37.:25:42.

in a gang and you haven't lost your virginity, if you don't have sex

:25:43.:25:45.

with the girl, they're going to beat you up, like you're going to take a

:25:46.:25:49.

beating, and you have to phone the beating, so you don't have no

:25:50.:25:52.

option, no nothing. So basically you have to do it. That could be the

:25:53.:25:56.

case even if the girl doesn't really want to do it? Yes.

:25:57.:26:03.

Pressure to have sex has long been part of teenage life, but in pockets

:26:04.:26:07.

of our inner cities, and even outside those areas, this report

:26:08.:26:12.

argues a culture of violence and sex has emerged. It is a culture adults

:26:13.:26:17.

know very little about that will have to change if young victims of

:26:18.:26:21.

abuse are going to get the help they really need.

:26:22.:26:27.

Joining me now is Isha Nembhar, a former gang member who now works

:26:28.:26:32.

with young offenders, including those in gangs at Foundation For

:26:33.:26:38.

Life, and David Lamy. First of all, in London alone, five girls, subject

:26:39.:26:40.

to this kind of sexual violence and rape. Does it surprise you at all?

:26:41.:26:48.

No, it doesn't. I've been working alongside Foundation for Life for a

:26:49.:26:52.

long time now, and this is what the problem is. It has been the problem,

:26:53.:26:54.

and the longer and longer it has been, it has been normalised as

:26:55.:26:59.

well. But why do young boys have this attitude towards women, towards

:27:00.:27:03.

girls? A lot of these young men, they don't have no role models at

:27:04.:27:08.

home, first of all, so they've got a broken home. A lot of - nine out of

:27:09.:27:14.

ten, they don't have father figures at home. They haven't got that

:27:15.:27:16.

positive role model to say you must treat a woman like this. They know

:27:17.:27:22.

right and wrong because they've got this one woman at home that's okay

:27:23.:27:25.

and they rape others. Because some girls, as they say, put it out

:27:26.:27:28.

there, they feel like they deserve it. David Lamy, you've written about

:27:29.:27:33.

this before, but even since you've written about it, it seems to have

:27:34.:27:37.

got worse, not better. Look, I think that the gang issue in Britain has

:27:38.:27:42.

been going on now for, or the acceleration of it, for at least 15

:27:43.:27:45.

years, and, frankly, it's getting worse. We have had reports, we had

:27:46.:27:49.

one recently into the riots - nothing has happened. Where does the

:27:50.:27:58.

problem lie in attitudes? Is it male role models or something else that

:27:59.:28:02.

is driving this? Of course it's role models but you can do something

:28:03.:28:05.

about it with mentors, and supporting young fathers. Where is

:28:06.:28:08.

the sex education in our schools of any quality? It is totally about the

:28:09.:28:11.

mechanics and not about the real life. That's how you intervene to

:28:12.:28:15.

make a difference. These young women doesn't feel, one in 12 of these

:28:16.:28:18.

girls wouldn't ever dream of going anywhere and reporting it. There is

:28:19.:28:22.

no safe space for them to report it. Because the community let these

:28:23.:28:27.

young kids do what they need to do and leave them to do it. They need

:28:28.:28:33.

local schools, you know, projects like Families For Life, social

:28:34.:28:37.

workers, the police, they need to have relationships with these young

:28:38.:28:42.

people. It is interesting one of the young women didn't know it was rape.

:28:43.:28:46.

That, frankly, is a regression in where we've come to understand a

:28:47.:28:50.

woman's privacy, her intimacy, and the fact that her body is her own.

:28:51.:28:55.

We've relessed, allowed that -- regressed, and allowed that to

:28:56.:28:58.

happen and it is happening because schools are not able to grip this in

:28:59.:29:01.

education. Families certainly are where they are broken, and we need

:29:02.:29:07.

the intervention of all services working together to challenge the

:29:08.:29:12.

idea that casual sex is fine. Are boys hearing this from other

:29:13.:29:16.

boys? What do they do? Why do they think that this is normal behaviour?

:29:17.:29:21.

Is it anything to do with online. What drives it apart from the fact

:29:22.:29:26.

there are no male models? The media, a lot of young males are watching

:29:27.:29:30.

porn on TV, so the way they feel they should have sex and treat a

:29:31.:29:36.

woman is wrong, its violent, and the way they certain songs that they

:29:37.:29:39.

listen to, I think that's got to do with it as well. I think two things:

:29:40.:29:43.

where there's a turf war - and there is in some of these communities -

:29:44.:29:48.

violence, status symbols, and, of course, sex and women defined by

:29:49.:29:51.

that is what you get. That's why we've got to intervene to challenge

:29:52.:29:58.

it, and there are cultural norms around grime, and popular culture,

:29:59.:30:02.

the games industry that is driving this -- crime. Many of these young

:30:03.:30:05.

people are exposed to nothing else. That's where it becomes a challenge.

:30:06.:30:09.

The idea if there is an idea, there are charities of course and there is

:30:10.:30:12.

work that you're doing, and there is work the young woman was doing in

:30:13.:30:15.

the film, but for many people they report it, and the reprisals will be

:30:16.:30:20.

horrific. Yes, there is definitely a culture of not grassing, if you

:30:21.:30:25.

like. Yes. That gets back to policing, people's attitude to what

:30:26.:30:28.

happens when you grass, who gets convicted, who doesn't, and the way

:30:29.:30:33.

in which some of these communities are not just local they are

:30:34.:30:36.

parochial - that's why you get the post code. Very, very small, your

:30:37.:30:43.

life is very small. Literally, the gangs develops because a few streets

:30:44.:30:48.

away another gang owns the turf. This phenomenon is American, it is

:30:49.:30:51.

come to Britain in a real and deep way and it is now endemic. What will

:30:52.:30:55.

it take to sort this out? It will take the whole community, schools,

:30:56.:30:59.

police, local services to work alongside with males and females,

:31:00.:31:04.

you know? You know, you need one-to-ones, you need intervention.

:31:05.:31:07.

You need all of these things to stop this going on, really.

:31:08.:31:12.

Is it because it is so localised and hidden that actually it takes

:31:13.:31:15.

something like the Children's Commission to do a two-year report

:31:16.:31:19.

to find out about it comprehensively or should it be known toe all of us?

:31:20.:31:25.

It should be known to everyone. If we tackle this, like we tackle the

:31:26.:31:30.

economy - That's about the will. That will solve the problem. Do you

:31:31.:31:33.

think there is the will to make this a priority? No. We would have done

:31:34.:31:36.

something. We are sleep-walking towards some of the worst scenes

:31:37.:31:42.

that we see in the United States in this country, and the pace at which

:31:43.:31:45.

we are challenging some of this, the fact that we are having this

:31:46.:31:48.

conversation, and this has been on Newsnight on regular occasions, is

:31:49.:31:52.

deeply worrying. Thank you both very much indeed.

:31:53.:31:57.

The Co-Op Bank saga rumbles on, with police arresting two men today in

:31:58.:32:00.

connection with allegations of supplying drugs to the bank's

:32:01.:32:05.

disgraced former boss, Paul Flowers. I think that's 300. Let me check it.

:32:06.:32:13.

20, 40, 60... The dramatic fall from grace of Reverend Flowers has

:32:14.:32:17.

grabbed the headlines, but the Co-Op's financial difficulties

:32:18.:32:21.

predated his arrival at chairman. The bank's disastrous merger with

:32:22.:32:25.

the Britannia building society left it with ?500 million of bad loans on

:32:26.:32:31.

its books, and a 1.5 billion capital short fall. How could this have

:32:32.:32:35.

happened at the height of the banking crisis when regulators

:32:36.:32:38.

should have been on their guard? Questions are being asked about how

:32:39.:32:42.

the Co-Op was allowed to get into this mess, and how a man like the

:32:43.:32:47.

Reverend flowers with in connection to no banking experience was allowed

:32:48.:32:51.

to run the company. Lord Turner was chair of the now defunct financial

:32:52.:32:57.

services watchdog, the FSA, when the Britannia merger and the appointment

:32:58.:33:01.

of Paul Flowers all took place. He joins me now. When you approved Paul

:33:02.:33:06.

Flowers as non-executive director at the Co-Op, what went wrong? That is

:33:07.:33:10.

what the inquiry will have to look at. I mean, broadly speaking, the

:33:11.:33:16.

story of the FSA on this particular issue of how we approved people for

:33:17.:33:22.

a directorship or chairmanships was a process of continual change during

:33:23.:33:26.

the four years that I was there, and we greatly improved the procedures,

:33:27.:33:31.

moved to aggressive interviews, moved to more searching approach.

:33:32.:33:36.

Now, I don't know where in that transition this particular event

:33:37.:33:39.

occurred; it was completely different by the time I ended at the

:33:40.:33:44.

FSA than we were at the beginning. I think it has fundamentally changed.

:33:45.:33:47.

We've got to look at it again, and see whether there are lessons to be

:33:48.:33:51.

learned about still further improvements in that. Having said

:33:52.:33:55.

that, I think we should be very cautious of believing that the

:33:56.:34:00.

problems of the Co-Op can be strongly identified with this

:34:01.:34:04.

particular individual. There were lots of executives at the Co-Op who

:34:05.:34:07.

had lots of banking experience, and let us remember that there were lots

:34:08.:34:12.

of people with lots and lots of banking experience at the big banks

:34:13.:34:17.

which went bankrupt, which failed, with far bigger impact on the

:34:18.:34:21.

economy, in the UK and the US, in 2008. So we've got to be very

:34:22.:34:25.

careful leaping in and staying just if behad good professional bankers,

:34:26.:34:28.

we will solve the problem. We come on to that, because that makes the

:34:29.:34:32.

task of whoever is sorting the wheat from the chaff very different if

:34:33.:34:37.

they are faced with all these banking qualifications. Just on the

:34:38.:34:40.

question of Paul Flowers, did his appointment cross your desk? No, it

:34:41.:34:43.

wouldn't have. Again, I am pretty sure that that is the case. I don't

:34:44.:34:46.

want to get into the details of that because it is subject to an

:34:47.:34:49.

inquiries process, they will be exploring that, but it wouldn't

:34:50.:34:52.

normally have been something. At this stage of a non-executive

:34:53.:34:55.

director? I may have been informed of it, but I wouldn't imagine I

:34:56.:34:58.

would have even been informed about it. One non-executive director of

:34:59.:35:03.

what is a relatively small bank wouldn't necessarily or not

:35:04.:35:05.

naturally come to the level of the Chairman of the board. That is

:35:06.:35:08.

interesting because I think what we understand is as a non-executive

:35:09.:35:11.

director, the person who dealt with that was a kind of case load worker

:35:12.:35:18.

who looked at non-ex-ex, but but the time you became Chairman, we knew

:35:19.:35:22.

the Co-Op was in a really difficult situation, and yet. I am not sure

:35:23.:35:25.

that that is the case. I think again, I don't want to go through

:35:26.:35:28.

the details of this, because this is something that should come out with

:35:29.:35:33.

public information from the PRA itself, but if you actually look at

:35:34.:35:36.

the very good description that Andrew Bailey, the head of the PRA

:35:37.:35:40.

who was previously head of banking supervision at the - I think he

:35:41.:35:45.

might have - Gave to the TFC. I think he might have interviewed Paul

:35:46.:35:48.

Flowers. I am not sure that's the case, but I can't comment on that

:35:49.:35:50.

because I haven't looked at the files, but he gave a very good

:35:51.:35:56.

examine the to the TFC a couple of weeks ago of what occurred, and that

:35:57.:36:00.

makes it plain that a lot of the problems of the Co-Op really only

:36:01.:36:06.

became clear in the course of 2011 and 2012 when I actually think the

:36:07.:36:10.

FSA did a very good job of making sure that the fundamental questions

:36:11.:36:13.

were being asked before, and making sure they didn't go ahead with the

:36:14.:36:19.

Veridat decision unless those questions were asked. On the vetting

:36:20.:36:24.

procedure yourself, have you ever turned a candidate down? Yes,

:36:25.:36:27.

they've been turned down occasionally. The difficulty is of

:36:28.:36:31.

course when you have people not like Paul Flowers with such a limited

:36:32.:36:34.

banking experience, but you're having senior bankers making massive

:36:35.:36:37.

mistakes. I think this is the crucial point. The Co-Op is an

:36:38.:36:42.

important issue, but it has not involved taxpayer support, and it

:36:43.:36:47.

has not involved a deposit and losses, and it is not a massive big

:36:48.:36:55.

bank. Back in2008, in order to stop depositor losses and a complete

:36:56.:36:58.

collapse of the banking system, we had to put taxpayer money in the UK

:36:59.:37:03.

and in the US into banks which had people with thousands and thousands

:37:04.:37:06.

of years of banking experience. There was nothing about that banking

:37:07.:37:11.

experience which stopped those banks reaching problems. What I think that

:37:12.:37:15.

illustrates, actually, is that although we talk about these issues

:37:16.:37:19.

of interviews and vetting, and licensing, I think they're less

:37:20.:37:22.

important than some really structural issues about why the

:37:23.:37:25.

banking system is unstable. When it comes to the takeover of Britannia

:37:26.:37:30.

and the possible takeover of Lloyds, do you think there was pressure put

:37:31.:37:35.

there for the Code to be successful? No, the FSA, I think, did its job

:37:36.:37:42.

correctly. The FSA looked at the capital requirements in relation in

:37:43.:37:45.

particular to the - They can look good for a challenger bank to be

:37:46.:37:50.

won? Again, I think that has to be left to the inquiries, et cetera,

:37:51.:37:55.

but you will say is the FSA quite clearly, as Andrew Bailey said out

:37:56.:38:03.

in the TSC, did its job in relation to the Verdiac. It asked the right

:38:04.:38:08.

questions. Moving on to the question of payday loans, the whole

:38:09.:38:13.

application for payday loans doubled under your tenureship of the FSA.

:38:14.:38:17.

Are you glad now the government has put a cap on it? Personally, I am.

:38:18.:38:22.

The FCA only gets responsibility for anything to do with consumer credit

:38:23.:38:27.

in March of next year. I remember saying to the board, and to my suck

:38:28.:38:31.

severs, one of your biggest issues will be consumer credit, and I think

:38:32.:38:34.

it is a very big issue for society, and I think we need to take some

:38:35.:38:38.

pretty tough action. Thank you very much indeed. At its height, the

:38:39.:38:42.

plebgate investigation involved 30 police officers and overall 1,000

:38:43.:38:47.

statements, 500 exhibits and seized documents. Now, the former Chief

:38:48.:38:51.

Whip, Andrew Mitchell, said he has been stitched up after just o of

:38:52.:38:54.

eight officers under criminal investigation has been charged. That

:38:55.:38:57.

is not the Downing Street police officer who claimed Andrew Mitchell

:38:58.:39:00.

called eet police officer who claimed Andrew Mitchell called him a

:39:01.:39:03.

"pleb". He is standing by his account, and the Conservative MP who

:39:04.:39:06.

has always denied using the word is calling for the Constable to give

:39:07.:39:10.

evidence under oath. As a press conference today, Andrew Mitchell

:39:11.:39:13.

firm lip blamed police for the cost of his job and his reputation. I was

:39:14.:39:19.

vilified relentlessly over 33 days with over 800 hate e-mails received

:39:20.:39:23.

during the course of that first week.

:39:24.:39:27.

Eight I and my family were driven from our home with as many as 20

:39:28.:39:30.

journalists and photographers camped outside.

:39:31.:39:33.

My children were followed by the press.

:39:34.:39:37.

My 92-year-old mother-in-law was pursued in Swansea. I was spat at in

:39:38.:39:41.

the street. I lost my job after a career

:39:42.:39:46.

spanning more than 25 years in parliament, serving my constituents,

:39:47.:39:51.

my party, and my country. Well, I am joined now in the studio

:39:52.:39:55.

by the BBC's home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw. Danny,

:39:56.:39:59.

first of all, we've just heard about the trouble caused for Andrew

:40:00.:40:04.

Mitchell. However, of the affair damaged the police. This is very

:40:05.:40:08.

damaging to the police. Whenever you talk to police officers about

:40:09.:40:12.

plebgate, they sigh, they gasp, they're frustrated that such a minor

:40:13.:40:16.

incident could do such damage to the reputation of the service. But,

:40:17.:40:22.

today -- but today could have been a lot worse for police. You've got one

:40:23.:40:26.

officer facing criminal charges, and the other disciplinary charges,

:40:27.:40:29.

serious nonetheless, and the central account of the officer at the gate,

:40:30.:40:34.

that remains in place. He is not facing criminal charges, he is not

:40:35.:40:40.

facing disciplinary charges, and the Crown Prosecution Service and the I

:40:41.:40:42.

wanted pen police complaints commission say we can't prove either

:40:43.:40:46.

way whether he was telling the truth. Where does this leave the

:40:47.:40:52.

Metropolitan Police police commissioner Bernhard hoeing Juanan.

:40:53.:40:58.

He was heaviliorised today for undermining what Andrew Mitchell

:40:59.:41:01.

said because he said he made comments which appeared to support

:41:02.:41:05.

the experts very earliy on in the investigation. This raises questions

:41:06.:41:08.

over his judgment of the matter. Is this the end of this? Are regoing to

:41:09.:41:13.

hear a lot more of this? We will probably still be talking about it

:41:14.:41:17.

in a year's time. We've got a criminal trial coming up; we've got

:41:18.:41:21.

disciplinaries proceedings, and also the prospect of the after libel case

:41:22.:41:25.

coming up between Andrew Mitchell and the Sun newspaper which tonight

:41:26.:41:27.

has issued a statement saying effectively, "See you in court."

:41:28.:41:31.

Toby Rowland, the officer at the centre of all this, has also issued

:41:32.:41:34.

a statement tonight saying he stands by every word that he has said, and

:41:35.:41:39.

he will, as Andrew Mitchell has challenged him to, take the oath and

:41:40.:41:44.

swear by what he said in a court of law. Thank you very much indeed.

:41:45.:41:49.

The publication of the Scottish government's blueprint for

:41:50.:41:52.

independence meant Scotland got to steal of of the limelight today, so

:41:53.:41:56.

we thought we would fish tonight south of the border. Colchester is

:41:57.:42:01.

best known as the town destroyed by Boudica, but it was on the map long

:42:02.:42:09.

before the Romans pitched up. We asked the residents there what they

:42:10.:42:14.

made of this historic day. England doesn't get a lot more

:42:15.:42:19.

English than Colchester, the oldest recorded town in the country, and

:42:20.:42:24.

birthplace of John Constable, and Blur.

:42:25.:42:28.

Not only have the people of Colchester been poring over the SNP

:42:29.:42:32.

blueprint today, but there was a breakout at the town zoo.

:42:33.:42:43.

ANSMIT (wolf howls) three wolves escaped. It's a perfect storm much

:42:44.:42:46.

news - Scottish politicians and wolves. Their defensive and mark out

:42:47.:42:51.

their ground by howling at each other. These wolves behave much the

:42:52.:42:59.

same way. By this evening, much of the wolves

:43:00.:43:06.

had sadly been put down, leaving one rogue animal at large.

:43:07.:43:11.

The streets of Colchester are all but decertificatesed tonight. Is

:43:12.:43:14.

everyone inside reading the SNP document? Or have they bolted their

:43:15.:43:19.

doors against that escaped wolf? Lupus Lupus, so bad they named it

:43:20.:43:24.

twice. We do have quite a big Scottish community here, so the

:43:25.:43:28.

independence of Scotland, I think, would probably be of interest to a

:43:29.:43:35.

lot of people in Colchester. We have an annual event called Scotland in

:43:36.:43:40.

Colchester where we have pipe bands. Why on earth do they do that?

:43:41.:43:44.

Because there is a huge Scottish community here in Colchester, not

:43:45.:43:47.

only is Colchester the second largest guardries son outside of

:43:48.:43:52.

Aldershot, so we have a lot of Scottish people who have been here

:43:53.:43:55.

through the army, a lot of people came down from Scotland, at the turn

:43:56.:43:58.

of the 19th century to farm here. What changed your mind about the

:43:59.:44:02.

news today? It made me think are we doing the right thing or not, yes. I

:44:03.:44:06.

don't like the idea of the break-up of Great Britain, quite honestly. We

:44:07.:44:10.

are one island. It seems silly to sort of break it up into little

:44:11.:44:15.

pieces again. I met the people there, and they're very different to

:44:16.:44:18.

the people in the rest of Britain. I would say that they already are

:44:19.:44:24.

fairly independent, and I think it would be a much more peaceful and

:44:25.:44:29.

better situation if they were fully independent. I've lived in Glasgow

:44:30.:44:32.

the majority of my life, and I've obviously had an experience of

:44:33.:44:37.

living down south in England for a number of years, so I am very much

:44:38.:44:42.

of the opinion that Scotland are in a position to contribute enough to

:44:43.:44:46.

go independent. If opponents of Scottish

:44:47.:44:50.

independence claim that the English are against it, our unreliable

:44:51.:44:55.

evidence from very English Colchester is that they may be

:44:56.:44:59.

crying wolf. Tomorrow morning's front pages,

:45:00.:45:03.

giving with the FT: Royal Bank of Scotland faces criminal proceed into

:45:04.:45:08.

SME cases. The Guardian claims of police lies

:45:09.:45:13.

reignites the plebgate row, and the cross word master dies at 92.

:45:14.:45:17.

The Daily Mirror and the Daily Express both have sensational

:45:18.:45:22.

allegations about Nigella Lawson that she was off her head every day

:45:23.:45:30.

for a decade. Saatchi's fury over the guilty secret, court is told.

:45:31.:45:35.

The Daily Express says that allegations that Nigella was off her

:45:36.:45:40.

head on cocaine, she took drugs daily for ten years, the court

:45:41.:45:43.

hears. That is all for tonight. We leave

:45:44.:45:47.

you with images from the latest exhibition of the National Maritime

:45:48.:45:51.

Museum, Turner and the Sea. Good night.

:45:52.:45:58.

Kirsty Wark talks to Scottish first minister Alex Salmond about his government's blueprint for independence.

Are the authorities missing thousands of cases of 'invisible' sexual abuse committed by children on children?

Lord Turner on the Co-op and the future of banking.

A policeman is charged with misconduct in the 'plebgate' investigation.

Colchester reflects on the idea of Scottish independence.


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