26/11/2013 Newsnight

This programme contains strong language.

Out today, the Scottish government's blueprint for an independent

country, but is it a game-changer? Journalists from all over the world

descended on Glasgow to hear the pitch for independence. A Newsnight,

Alex Salmond throws down the gauntlet. We are entitled to a share

of the asset. This is as much our pound as London's pound. It's

certainly not George Osborne's pound. The children's commissioner

for England find out children as young as 11 mete out sexual violence

to others just as young. Loads of stories, you will be at a party, and

see one girl and go to different boys. I've been at a party and seen

one girl go through about ten different boys in one night. We talk

to a former gang member and David Lamy MP. Another twist in the

plebgate row: one out of the eight officers involved will face criminal

charges. After a ?250,000 spend and one year on, we still don't know who

said what at the gates of Downing Street. My reputation was destroyed.

I was vilified relentlessly over 33 days.

Good evening, it's not War and Peace, and it's very long, and its

critics have dubbed it a work of fiction, but today the Scottish

government made clear what they want to happen if Scotland votes yes next

September. The document reiterates the desire to keep the pound and a

currency union and retain membership of the EU and NATO, but the desire

and the hard reality might be very different. What we do know for sure

is that an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy and

EastEnders. Allan Little is in Edinburgh. What is actually new?

What did we learn today? Not very much for a document that runs to 670

pages, except this: the detail, the detail is new, and it is new that it

is a comprehensive account of the shape, and character, and spirit of

the kind of society and independent Scotland that Alex Salmond and

others want to see. This is meant to be a comprehensive account. This is

meant to ask all the questions that people ask when they say, "I haven't

yet got information information." Ask when they say, "I haven't yet

got information information. " -- enough information." They hope the

Scottish public will turn to this online or in any paper forms it

comes in, and seek reassurance about the kind of ambitions that the

Scottish government has. One big thing that is new is that they're

promising what they call a revolutionary spans, an extension of

childcare for children under school age so that they can encourage more

women to go back into the workplace on a kind of Scandinavian model, if

you like, encourage more women to become part of the productive

economy, and help the kind of economic growth that they would want

in a independent Scotland, and it would pay for many of the

commitments that they make in this document. What is new, really, is

the comprehensive nature of the aspiration that they are make. What

do you think is their biggest asset? It was impressive watching Salmond

who, as everybody knows, is a master political operator, and increasingly

Nicola Sturgeon, speak today, because although it was an

exhilarating moment for their supporters, you could taste the

excitement in the air. Many of the members of the Scottish government

were there and for them it was a major landmark on their long, long

march for what they think is independence - remember, many have

been in it for 30 to 40 years. Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon spoke

dispassionately, almost as if they wanted to take the political grand

standing out of it and speak as if there was nothing controversial

left, nothing was controversial at all from the way they were speaking,

speaking about it as if it was a technocratic now from now to

independence. I think the danger for the Better Together campaign, the

pro-union campaign is that as the campaign goes on, they will be

sounding more and more negative, and many pro-independence people will

see this as a simple choice between the sunny optimism of the

possibility of a new start, as they see it, and the can you remember

amongonly fearful caution of the Curmogeolnly fearful caution of the

Better Together, and people are perceiving it that way. And It had

to fall to several of our team to drill down into the white

It is a big moment in the independence debate, and I think

people will enjoy reading. It's going to be a substantial mark in

our politics. I would say the most important political document in

Scotland's history. Described in some quarters as the most

significant document in Scottish history. The other great analogy is

to the declaration of independence. Ultimately, at the heart of this

debate, there's only one question, or one choice: do we, the people who

live and work in Scotland, believe that we are the best people to take

the big decisions about our future? This is a brochure for a country

that doesn't yet exist - an independent Scotland. A 650-page

travel guide to try and tempt people to live here. Many opinion polls

suggest, for plenty, they don't yet wish to be here. This brochure will

try to change that. The guide book is clear: an

independent Scotland would keep the pound.

We've putting forward an objective position of why a sterling area is

not just in the best interests of Scotland but the best interests of

the rest of the United Kingdom. But critics watching on campaigning to

keep the union are simply not convinced. I think the most

significant area of weakness is the fundamental one, and that is what

currency would we use? If we didn't agree to the terms and conditions

like the Eurozone, a currency union, what would that mean? Would we have

our own currency? Join the Euro. They need to answer these questions,

and they've ducked it. Amongst the big stuff, the pound, the Euro-or

whatever it might be rattling around your pocket, Alex Salmond wanted to

set out some economic goodies he would promise as for him, so there

would be help for childcare, he would raise the personal allowance

for income tax, he would raise the minimum wage at least in line with

inflation. He would also cut corporation tax and cut the air

passenger duty - retail political offers rather than just a big

constitutional argument. But the question is how will this be

paid for? The general principles that were set out for reform of the

tax and welfare system in an independent Scotland were very

laudable but there was an awful lot more detail about areas where they

would choose to give money away, so in particular mentioning cutting the

corporation tax rate, cutting employers' National Insurance, and

reversing the bedroom tax that the current UK government has

implemented in the longer run, what there was less mention of in the

white paper is the fact that Scotland may have to face a more

challenging fiscal tightening over the next few decades than the UK as

a whole would. So what does our travel guide say about defence and

relations with the European Union? Well, it sets out that we will

continue to be a member of the EU. There's a view to remove Trident

within the first term of the Scottish Parliament following

independence, and Scotland would take its place as one of the many

non-nuclear members of NATO. Why do we think Scotland will be

welcomed into NATO? It's a North Atlantic treaty organisation. It

would have a slight difficulty if a large part of the territorial area

of the north Atlantic weren't part of NATO. But some are sceptical, and

think the nationalists are naive. 670 pages of assertion, uncertainty.

The much-vaunted legal opinion on our EU membership, noticeable only

by its absence. The brochure commits an independent

Scotland to create a new public service broadcaster. Scotland will

remain a constitutional monarchy, and there will be no border checks.

All of this isn't just about weighty fodder like the public finances,

sovereignty, and nationalism, what about being able to see Strictly

Come Dancing? Panic not, says Alex Salmond, that will still be on the

telly. What about using a passport to visit here or travel elsewhere

around the parish isles? You wouldn't need one. What about the

National Anthem. There wouldn't be one at first. That would be decided

after the referendum. Of of us watch Scottish football. I

know Alex Hansen is leaving Match of the Day, but not to watch this

regular slot, and have to be reduced to endless Celtic versus Rangers

games, that could be a deciding factor in the vote for some of us.

So plenty for people here to consider before next autumn's

referendum, and plenty of reading for those consulting this guide book

on Scotland's possible future. Earlier, I spoke to Alex Salmond and

put it to him that today's white paper was little more than a wish

list and won't necessarily deliver on a single promise. No, it is a

very substantial document that accounts to people not just how we

get to independence but perhaps crucially, and this is why it is a

game-change, of the sort of things we can do with the independent

Scotland once we have it, and the commits on childcare, pensions,

getting back to work, unbidding the bedroom tax - all of these are

things which are of huge interest to hundreds of thousands of families in

Scotland, they're a positive vision and that's why we will win the

campaign. They're a vision, and they will be determined by a lot of

factor before that, not least things, for example, currency union.

That is your plan A. You say you have no plan B. But currency union

requires the goodwill of the rest of the United Kingdom, and they may not

be minded to give you it. In fact, right now, they're saying it is not

an option. We put forward an argument as to why it is in the

interests of Scotland and in the interests of the rest of the UK to

retain sterling, the pound, as our currency. That option of course was

described as logical and desirable and Newsnight by Alistair Darling,

the leader of the no campaign earlier this year. I know he has

been got at by the campaign fever since, but nonetheless, at the going

to have to decide why he thought it was logical and desirable in January

but now argue, the opposite position. What we put forward is the

consistent argument that keeping the pound is as much in our interests as

in the interests of the rest of the UK, and on that basis it is a

reasonable proposition to put forward. If the rest of the United

Kingdom doesn't agree, then what happens? Because there seems to be a

situation where you're saying if they don't agree, then you may well

withhold the debt. Isn't that just a straightforward thuggish threat? No.

The arguments mutual self-interest and trade. England is our biggest

market; we're England's second biggest market. It would cost the UK

businesses ?500 million in transaction costs to try and force

Scotland out of a currency union. Secondly, we provide about 39

billion of protection for the sterling balance of payments from

oil and gas, it would knock a huge hole and sterling if that wasn't

available. Thirdly, Kirsty, it is an argument about assets and

liabilities: the Bank of England, sterling, is part of the assets of

the country. We are entitled to a share of the assets. This is as much

our pound as London's pound. It is certainly not George Osborne's

pound, and the reason that we have accounted for paying a share of t

liabilities, financing the incredible debt that George Osborne

and Alistair Darling have built up - Can you go into these negotiations

when you've already said, and it is not a gesture of goodwill, you said

you're going to cut corporation tax for up to three per cent, that will,

in order to try and put businesses a better position than they are in

England, that's not a gesture of goodwill, is it? I was going to

complete the point that we are saying we will accept the share of

assets. We are entitled to that, and therefore will accept a share of

finance and liabilities of the enormous debt that the two previous

chancellors have built up. On the question of corporation tax, we put

forward a competitive policy for Scotland. There have been many

countries - Belgium and Luxembourg, for example - shared a currency for

generations and had different rates of corporation tax because they did

what they thought was best for their economies and their countries.

That's a perfectly viable thing to put forward. Of course, the UK

government can put forward its taxation policies as it wishes.

That's the way you can handle these things: do what is in the interests

of your economy to generate jobs and investment. Let's take something

like Trident. What has been said in the Scotland's future is we are

going for the speediest, safe withdrawal of nuclear weapons from

Scotland, and you say it should be within the lifetime of the first

parliament, 2020. What if that is not the speediest, safest

withdrawal. Will you be prepared to delay? Safety will be paramount.

That's why we expressed the commitment in the way that we do,

the speediest safe withdrawal, but estimates have been provided for

that, including by Commons committees which have very short

timescale indeed. So much of this is comes down to Scotland voting yes,

that you might have to trade Trident for staying? Currency union. It

might be as crude as that? No, you know the position of a lot of the

Scottish public, the SNP, and the Green Party, and others well enough

to know that, for us, the nuclear weapons are something that must be

removed from Scotland as speedily and as safely as possible. Let's

deal with Europe now. What you're banking on is Scotland, an

independent Scotland, being a continuum in the EU. You can't

guarantee that, either. You may have to reapply, and if you do reapply,

you have to to have the unanimous say-so of the other member

countries. Spain might say no? Well, we put forward a position under

Article 48 which obviously is consistent with the advice we've

received from the Lord Advocate of Scotland which puts forward the

mechanism by which Scotland can continue as a member of the European

Union. Of course, there is a threat to Scotland's membership of the

European Union, and that comes quite clearly from the commitment by David

Cameron to hold an in-out referendum in the UK. That is the threat to

Scotland's membership of the European Union. This is all

predicated on a particular position of whoever is Chancellor or on the

question of currency, Trident. You can't deliver any of these things,

and elements like the bedroom tax, and childcare, they're promises that

you might not be able to deliver either? Well, obviously, we can bin

the bedroom tax. When Scotland becomes independent, we will have

control of our social security. We can decide not to have a bedroom tax

and do that in the first year. On the childcare, that's an interesting

debate to open up. We point out if we move to Scandinavian levels of

childcare, we attract far more women back into the worse workforce, give

people an equal chance to work, that generates up to ?700 million much

extra revenue. Right now under devolution, that will fall into the

maws of George Osborne. It will accrue to a Scottish exchequer and

make the policy affordable and sustainable. This is no more than an

SNP manifesto. If Scotland were to vote yes next September, then on 24

March 2016, you would have independence day, you would have a

general election less than six weeks later, you might not be in power?

We've not acknowledged that point, we embrace that point in the white

paper published today, and, of course, the whole essence of

independence is that people would have the choice. We would always in

Scotland get the government that we vote for as opposed to having

governments foisted upon us like at present which we didn't vote for.

Alex Salmond, thank you very much. Great pleasure, thank you. Boys are

predators, girls are prey - that remark by one teenager sums up the

findings of a two-year report into young people and sexual violence

published today by the children's commissioner for England. It makes

for some tough reading, pointed to thousands of cases of invisible

sexual abuse committed by children on children which the authorities

are missing. Those problems are greatest in parts

of the country where street gangs operate with impunity.

This film contains some strong language.

Hidden away in towns and cities, behind closed doors, and shut

windows, what is described by the Children's

Hidden away in towns and cities, behind closed doors, and shut

windows, what is described by the Children's Commissioner as an

"invisible problem, a disturbing reality".

A young woman considering, or even belonging to a gang faces the

possibility of rape. That can be rape and a relationship

or group rape. If a girl is easy, and they boast about possibility of

rape. That can be rape and a relationship

or group rape. If a girl is easy, and they boast about it, "I got this

girl" the friends are like, "I might as well have a go." They get

involved, tell their friends, and the girl is getting the name quick.

If you're seen as a slag, you can risk a lot with loads of different

men, she's not getting rid of that name, to every boy she will be

nothing but sex. Today's report is warning that some

forms of sexual violence are being completely missed by police, social

workers, teachers, everyone. Teenagers often face abuse not from

much older men but from other young teenagers, and much of the time,

that abuse is hidden away, well beneath the surface.

Michelle - not her real name - had just started secondary school when

she was taken in a park in East London by a gang of boys aged 13 and

14. It happened more than once. I was out with friends. Some of the

girls knew the boys, so they approached us.

As soon as I saw them, I had this kind of I don't know, impression

that they were not nice people and they were kind of aggressive. They

told us to get on the bus. We went to the local park and...

Then it just happened. I don't know how to say it.

Did you think of it as rape at the time? No. I didn't know what rape

was at the time. To me, it was just something terrible because it made

me feel upset. It frightened me. I said no.

But it wasn't a thing where they were listening to me, like I could

cry. I could scream. They wasn't ever listening. Did you ever come

forward and tell anyone about it? I didn't tell anyone. All the young

people knew it was going on. But they made out I wanted to do it.

And they didn't know the full story. But as far as me telling somebody, I

didn't feel like I could. Michelle's Nan eventually found out and two of

the gang were convicted. Certainliual violence is not just a

big-city phenomenon, but today's report based on two years of field

work by the University of Bedfordshire suggests teenagers are

particularly at risk in neighbourhoods like this one in

South London where local gangs have power and influence.

The authors spoke to 188 young people in six research sites across

England. Of those prepared to talk about sex, 65 per cent knew of cases

of girlsing pressured into sexual activity. 41 per cent identified

cases of rape; 44 per cent of gang rape. We are all trained youth

workers, social workers, we've got a lot of experience. We would very -

we were very genuinely shocked by the amount of sexual violence that

we were coming across. As time went on, we began to find that we were

accepting it almost as normal in a similar sort of way as the young

people were, and that really frightened us. Speak to teenagers in

places like this, and what comes across is just how routine that sort

of abuse can feel. Loads of stories like you will be at

a party, and you'll see one girl go through different boys, like I've

been at a party, and I've seen one girl go through about ten different

boys in one night. You don't know if that boy has drugged them in their

drink or spiked their drink, and then like they obviously take them

to the bedroom and then they get all their mates to do it. Would anyone

ever report it? No, because they're too scared because what about if

they threaten them while they're doing it, if you go to the police, I

will do it again but with different people, I am going to slap you up.

Not just that, if you report it, like not just could happen to you

but what could happen to your family, you get labelled as a snake.

Once you've got labelled as a snake, you're known as a snake, you can't

be trusted because you run to the police. You're just their little

like informer. You're nothing. You're just a snake.

The scale of this problem still is not clear, but the best guess is

that 5,000 young women are at risk of gang-related sexual violence in

London alone. There is no national figure.

Very loving, very safe to live in... Cherie Johnson grew up in

South London. Her mother spent time in prison for smuggling drugs. Her

dad was a well-known dealer. She qualified as a probation officer and

social worker, and now runs her own project helping other girls trying

to leave that ceremony environment. Girls have two roles: you are either

the victim of the group or you're a perpetrator with the group. So if

you're a victim, you will be used as a sex toy, you will be passed

around, you will be shared, you will be encouraged to hold drugs, store

guns, and stuff like that. If you're the perpetrator, your status is a

little bit more high. For example, the males in the gangs respect you a

little bit more. Just one in 12 of the young people

in the study said they would ever talk about or report an incident of

sexual violence. Young women often viewed abuse from boyfriends or

partners as simply part of life. Those victims were often seen as

having brought harm on themselves by their own actions.

Among some young men, there is a sharp distinction between

girlfriends who might be treated with respect and another type of

girl used for casual sex. Those connected to gangs would only speak

openly if we agreed to hide their identities.

You've got your hood, girls. Would you class as hood chicks? And your

wife which is a girl you keep at home and nobody knows.

You don't bring her involved or anything.

She's the one you treat nice. What is the difference in the way you

treat the hood girls and the wives in terms of the way they get

treated? It's the way you speak to them.

What you do after you finish after having sex with them. They don't

mean nothing to you. It is just there for convenience.

It could happen anywhere, just the boys chilling together, and they're

they're lying, you know, I want to get my Dick out, let's phone

whoever, phone someone and say, "Yes, we are here chilling, come and

suck our dicks." Then the girl will turn up, she will know what it is

before she even got there, so I don't know. It's like they think it

is cool. They don't see it as a problem.

If you're in a gang and you see a girl who is a slag, then you ask

them, are you on it? They will be like, yes, yes, yes, and then take

them wherever, in the block, you and your friends, and just lock them,

innit. I know people that have done it. They enjoyed it. What do the

girls say afterwards? Nothing. They just get ready and leave. Are they

upset, look upset, worried or not? Normal day to them, isn't it? If

they wear short skirts, high heels, belly tops, that's putting yourself

out there saying, "Look at me, come and lock me." Do they deserve to get

- Raped? Of course they do, not really, but if you're like that

every day then expect to get raped - innit. It might be the way they want

to dress. Yes, true, never know, though.

Of course, not all teenage boys living in estates will think like

that. These three are not directly connected to gangs at all but all

have grown up in areas where gang culture is strong, and losing your

virginity is crucial for your reputation.

In school mainly, like when you're in school them times, like there's a

lot of pressure on them times, and then if you haven't lost it as you

get older, people look at you like you've got no game, nothing like

this, and so it's embarrassing sort of thing. Another thing, if you're

in a gang and you haven't lost your virginity, if you don't have sex

with the girl, they're going to beat you up, like you're going to take a

beating, and you have to phone the beating, so you don't have no

option, no nothing. So basically you have to do it. That could be the

case even if the girl doesn't really want to do it? Yes.

Pressure to have sex has long been part of teenage life, but in pockets

of our inner cities, and even outside those areas, this report

argues a culture of violence and sex has emerged. It is a culture adults

know very little about that will have to change if young victims of

abuse are going to get the help they really need.

Joining me now is Isha Nembhar, a former gang member who now works

with young offenders, including those in gangs at Foundation For

Life, and David Lamy. First of all, in London alone, five girls, subject

to this kind of sexual violence and rape. Does it surprise you at all?

No, it doesn't. I've been working alongside Foundation for Life for a

long time now, and this is what the problem is. It has been the problem,

and the longer and longer it has been, it has been normalised as

well. But why do young boys have this attitude towards women, towards

girls? A lot of these young men, they don't have no role models at

home, first of all, so they've got a broken home. A lot of - nine out of

ten, they don't have father figures at home. They haven't got that

positive role model to say you must treat a woman like this. They know

right and wrong because they've got this one woman at home that's okay

and they rape others. Because some girls, as they say, put it out

there, they feel like they deserve it. David Lamy, you've written about

this before, but even since you've written about it, it seems to have

got worse, not better. Look, I think that the gang issue in Britain has

been going on now for, or the acceleration of it, for at least 15

years, and, frankly, it's getting worse. We have had reports, we had

one recently into the riots - nothing has happened. Where does the

problem lie in attitudes? Is it male role models or something else that

is driving this? Of course it's role models but you can do something

about it with mentors, and supporting young fathers. Where is

the sex education in our schools of any quality? It is totally about the

mechanics and not about the real life. That's how you intervene to

make a difference. These young women doesn't feel, one in 12 of these

girls wouldn't ever dream of going anywhere and reporting it. There is

no safe space for them to report it. Because the community let these

young kids do what they need to do and leave them to do it. They need

local schools, you know, projects like Families For Life, social

workers, the police, they need to have relationships with these young

people. It is interesting one of the young women didn't know it was rape.

That, frankly, is a regression in where we've come to understand a

woman's privacy, her intimacy, and the fact that her body is her own.

We've relessed, allowed that -- regressed, and allowed that to

happen and it is happening because schools are not able to grip this in

education. Families certainly are where they are broken, and we need

the intervention of all services working together to challenge the

idea that casual sex is fine. Are boys hearing this from other

boys? What do they do? Why do they think that this is normal behaviour?

Is it anything to do with online. What drives it apart from the fact

there are no male models? The media, a lot of young males are watching

porn on TV, so the way they feel they should have sex and treat a

woman is wrong, its violent, and the way they certain songs that they

listen to, I think that's got to do with it as well. I think two things:

where there's a turf war - and there is in some of these communities -

violence, status symbols, and, of course, sex and women defined by

that is what you get. That's why we've got to intervene to challenge

it, and there are cultural norms around grime, and popular culture,

the games industry that is driving this -- crime. Many of these young

people are exposed to nothing else. That's where it becomes a challenge.

The idea if there is an idea, there are charities of course and there is

work that you're doing, and there is work the young woman was doing in

the film, but for many people they report it, and the reprisals will be

horrific. Yes, there is definitely a culture of not grassing, if you

like. Yes. That gets back to policing, people's attitude to what

happens when you grass, who gets convicted, who doesn't, and the way

in which some of these communities are not just local they are

parochial - that's why you get the post code. Very, very small, your

life is very small. Literally, the gangs develops because a few streets

away another gang owns the turf. This phenomenon is American, it is

come to Britain in a real and deep way and it is now endemic. What will

it take to sort this out? It will take the whole community, schools,

police, local services to work alongside with males and females,

you know? You know, you need one-to-ones, you need intervention.

You need all of these things to stop this going on, really.

Is it because it is so localised and hidden that actually it takes

something like the Children's Commission to do a two-year report

to find out about it comprehensively or should it be known toe all of us?

It should be known to everyone. If we tackle this, like we tackle the

economy - That's about the will. That will solve the problem. Do you

think there is the will to make this a priority? No. We would have done

something. We are sleep-walking towards some of the worst scenes

that we see in the United States in this country, and the pace at which

we are challenging some of this, the fact that we are having this

conversation, and this has been on Newsnight on regular occasions, is

deeply worrying. Thank you both very much indeed.

The Co-Op Bank saga rumbles on, with police arresting two men today in

connection with allegations of supplying drugs to the bank's

disgraced former boss, Paul Flowers. I think that's 300. Let me check it.

20, 40, 60... The dramatic fall from grace of Reverend Flowers has

grabbed the headlines, but the Co-Op's financial difficulties

predated his arrival at chairman. The bank's disastrous merger with

the Britannia building society left it with ?500 million of bad loans on

its books, and a 1.5 billion capital short fall. How could this have

happened at the height of the banking crisis when regulators

should have been on their guard? Questions are being asked about how

the Co-Op was allowed to get into this mess, and how a man like the

Reverend flowers with in connection to no banking experience was allowed

to run the company. Lord Turner was chair of the now defunct financial

services watchdog, the FSA, when the Britannia merger and the appointment

of Paul Flowers all took place. He joins me now. When you approved Paul

Flowers as non-executive director at the Co-Op, what went wrong? That is

what the inquiry will have to look at. I mean, broadly speaking, the

story of the FSA on this particular issue of how we approved people for

a directorship or chairmanships was a process of continual change during

the four years that I was there, and we greatly improved the procedures,

moved to aggressive interviews, moved to more searching approach.

Now, I don't know where in that transition this particular event

occurred; it was completely different by the time I ended at the

FSA than we were at the beginning. I think it has fundamentally changed.

We've got to look at it again, and see whether there are lessons to be

learned about still further improvements in that. Having said

that, I think we should be very cautious of believing that the

problems of the Co-Op can be strongly identified with this

particular individual. There were lots of executives at the Co-Op who

had lots of banking experience, and let us remember that there were lots

of people with lots and lots of banking experience at the big banks

which went bankrupt, which failed, with far bigger impact on the

economy, in the UK and the US, in 2008. So we've got to be very

careful leaping in and staying just if behad good professional bankers,

we will solve the problem. We come on to that, because that makes the

task of whoever is sorting the wheat from the chaff very different if

they are faced with all these banking qualifications. Just on the

question of Paul Flowers, did his appointment cross your desk? No, it

wouldn't have. Again, I am pretty sure that that is the case. I don't

want to get into the details of that because it is subject to an

inquiries process, they will be exploring that, but it wouldn't

normally have been something. At this stage of a non-executive

director? I may have been informed of it, but I wouldn't imagine I

would have even been informed about it. One non-executive director of

what is a relatively small bank wouldn't necessarily or not

naturally come to the level of the Chairman of the board. That is

interesting because I think what we understand is as a non-executive

director, the person who dealt with that was a kind of case load worker

who looked at non-ex-ex, but but the time you became Chairman, we knew

the Co-Op was in a really difficult situation, and yet. I am not sure

that that is the case. I think again, I don't want to go through

the details of this, because this is something that should come out with

public information from the PRA itself, but if you actually look at

the very good description that Andrew Bailey, the head of the PRA

who was previously head of banking supervision at the - I think he

might have - Gave to the TFC. I think he might have interviewed Paul

Flowers. I am not sure that's the case, but I can't comment on that

because I haven't looked at the files, but he gave a very good

examine the to the TFC a couple of weeks ago of what occurred, and that

makes it plain that a lot of the problems of the Co-Op really only

became clear in the course of 2011 and 2012 when I actually think the

FSA did a very good job of making sure that the fundamental questions

were being asked before, and making sure they didn't go ahead with the

Veridat decision unless those questions were asked. On the vetting

procedure yourself, have you ever turned a candidate down? Yes,

they've been turned down occasionally. The difficulty is of

course when you have people not like Paul Flowers with such a limited

banking experience, but you're having senior bankers making massive

mistakes. I think this is the crucial point. The Co-Op is an

important issue, but it has not involved taxpayer support, and it

has not involved a deposit and losses, and it is not a massive big

bank. Back in2008, in order to stop depositor losses and a complete

collapse of the banking system, we had to put taxpayer money in the UK

and in the US into banks which had people with thousands and thousands

of years of banking experience. There was nothing about that banking

experience which stopped those banks reaching problems. What I think that

illustrates, actually, is that although we talk about these issues

of interviews and vetting, and licensing, I think they're less

important than some really structural issues about why the

banking system is unstable. When it comes to the takeover of Britannia

and the possible takeover of Lloyds, do you think there was pressure put

there for the Code to be successful? No, the FSA, I think, did its job

correctly. The FSA looked at the capital requirements in relation in

particular to the - They can look good for a challenger bank to be

won? Again, I think that has to be left to the inquiries, et cetera,

but you will say is the FSA quite clearly, as Andrew Bailey said out

in the TSC, did its job in relation to the Verdiac. It asked the right

questions. Moving on to the question of payday loans, the whole

application for payday loans doubled under your tenureship of the FSA.

Are you glad now the government has put a cap on it? Personally, I am.

The FCA only gets responsibility for anything to do with consumer credit

in March of next year. I remember saying to the board, and to my suck

severs, one of your biggest issues will be consumer credit, and I think

it is a very big issue for society, and I think we need to take some

pretty tough action. Thank you very much indeed. At its height, the

plebgate investigation involved 30 police officers and overall 1,000

statements, 500 exhibits and seized documents. Now, the former Chief

Whip, Andrew Mitchell, said he has been stitched up after just o of

eight officers under criminal investigation has been charged. That

is not the Downing Street police officer who claimed Andrew Mitchell

called eet police officer who claimed Andrew Mitchell called him a

"pleb". He is standing by his account, and the Conservative MP who

has always denied using the word is calling for the Constable to give

evidence under oath. As a press conference today, Andrew Mitchell

firm lip blamed police for the cost of his job and his reputation. I was

vilified relentlessly over 33 days with over 800 hate e-mails received

during the course of that first week.

Eight I and my family were driven from our home with as many as 20

journalists and photographers camped outside.

My children were followed by the press.

My 92-year-old mother-in-law was pursued in Swansea. I was spat at in

the street. I lost my job after a career

spanning more than 25 years in parliament, serving my constituents,

my party, and my country. Well, I am joined now in the studio

by the BBC's home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw. Danny,

first of all, we've just heard about the trouble caused for Andrew

Mitchell. However, of the affair damaged the police. This is very

damaging to the police. Whenever you talk to police officers about

plebgate, they sigh, they gasp, they're frustrated that such a minor

incident could do such damage to the reputation of the service. But,

today -- but today could have been a lot worse for police. You've got one

officer facing criminal charges, and the other disciplinary charges,

serious nonetheless, and the central account of the officer at the gate,

that remains in place. He is not facing criminal charges, he is not

facing disciplinary charges, and the Crown Prosecution Service and the I

wanted pen police complaints commission say we can't prove either

way whether he was telling the truth. Where does this leave the

Metropolitan Police police commissioner Bernhard hoeing Juanan.

He was heaviliorised today for undermining what Andrew Mitchell

said because he said he made comments which appeared to support

the experts very earliy on in the investigation. This raises questions

over his judgment of the matter. Is this the end of this? Are regoing to

hear a lot more of this? We will probably still be talking about it

in a year's time. We've got a criminal trial coming up; we've got

disciplinaries proceedings, and also the prospect of the after libel case

coming up between Andrew Mitchell and the Sun newspaper which tonight

has issued a statement saying effectively, "See you in court."

Toby Rowland, the officer at the centre of all this, has also issued

a statement tonight saying he stands by every word that he has said, and

he will, as Andrew Mitchell has challenged him to, take the oath and

swear by what he said in a court of law. Thank you very much indeed.

The publication of the Scottish government's blueprint for

independence meant Scotland got to steal of of the limelight today, so

we thought we would fish tonight south of the border. Colchester is

best known as the town destroyed by Boudica, but it was on the map long

before the Romans pitched up. We asked the residents there what they

made of this historic day. England doesn't get a lot more

English than Colchester, the oldest recorded town in the country, and

birthplace of John Constable, and Blur.

Not only have the people of Colchester been poring over the SNP

blueprint today, but there was a breakout at the town zoo.

ANSMIT (wolf howls) three wolves escaped. It's a perfect storm much

news - Scottish politicians and wolves. Their defensive and mark out

their ground by howling at each other. These wolves behave much the

same way. By this evening, much of the wolves

had sadly been put down, leaving one rogue animal at large.

The streets of Colchester are all but decertificatesed tonight. Is

everyone inside reading the SNP document? Or have they bolted their

doors against that escaped wolf? Lupus Lupus, so bad they named it

twice. We do have quite a big Scottish community here, so the

independence of Scotland, I think, would probably be of interest to a

lot of people in Colchester. We have an annual event called Scotland in

Colchester where we have pipe bands. Why on earth do they do that?

Because there is a huge Scottish community here in Colchester, not

only is Colchester the second largest guardries son outside of

Aldershot, so we have a lot of Scottish people who have been here

through the army, a lot of people came down from Scotland, at the turn

of the 19th century to farm here. What changed your mind about the

news today? It made me think are we doing the right thing or not, yes. I

don't like the idea of the break-up of Great Britain, quite honestly. We

are one island. It seems silly to sort of break it up into little

pieces again. I met the people there, and they're very different to

the people in the rest of Britain. I would say that they already are

fairly independent, and I think it would be a much more peaceful and

better situation if they were fully independent. I've lived in Glasgow

the majority of my life, and I've obviously had an experience of

living down south in England for a number of years, so I am very much

of the opinion that Scotland are in a position to contribute enough to

go independent. If opponents of Scottish

independence claim that the English are against it, our unreliable

evidence from very English Colchester is that they may be

crying wolf. Tomorrow morning's front pages,

giving with the FT: Royal Bank of Scotland faces criminal proceed into

SME cases. The Guardian claims of police lies

reignites the plebgate row, and the cross word master dies at 92.

The Daily Mirror and the Daily Express both have sensational

allegations about Nigella Lawson that she was off her head every day

for a decade. Saatchi's fury over the guilty secret, court is told.

The Daily Express says that allegations that Nigella was off her

head on cocaine, she took drugs daily for ten years, the court

hears. That is all for tonight. We leave

you with images from the latest exhibition of the National Maritime

Museum, Turner and the Sea. Good night.