03/12/2013 Newsnight


03/12/2013

Why is UK education stagnating in world league tables? Plus, the former head of NY and LA police on the state of the British force, and the Guardian's editor faces MPs.


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Beat in, math, beaten in reading, beaten in science, British teenagers

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are performing no better in school tests than they were six years ago.

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What's gone wrong? How is it that above average spending on education

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seems to be delivering no improvement in performance? This man

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invented modern British policing, we talk to his greatest fan, the top

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cop of New York and Los Angeles about how to restore confidence in

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the police. Do you love this country? Is there more than a whiff

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of McCarthyism in how the Guardian has blown state secrets. And what

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possesses someone to decide to climb up the outside of a skyscraper for

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fun? As long as nothing gets broken and you know, hopefully the police

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don't get called in and you don't waste their time and nobody gets

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hurt, then nothing has been affected. We're a nation of dunce,

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at least we are if you take seriously the figures produced in an

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international survey of teenage achievement in maths, science and

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reading. Let's ignore the fact that in these rankings Britain is ahead

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of the United States and most of Europe. Let's ignore too that to

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benefit from a Chinese education you would have to live in China. Let's

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content ourselves with the simple question, why are British children

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so dumb? Which is the interpretation being put on the figures by most of

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the political class of this country. Stuck? You're not the only one, in

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the latest international tests for 15-year-olds, UK results are at best

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stagnant. Standards in some other countries are improving much faster.

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The OECD calculates the tables based on results in math, reading and

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science. All three are dominated by south-east Asian countries. In maths

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the UK comes 26th out of 65. In reading, we're 23rd, in science

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we're 21st. We lag behind Estonia and Poland! In the Arc Chain of

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schools, children learn maths Singapore style. We learn from maths

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mastery and copied from the Singapore style, we focus on number

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drilling, not going out into algebra and having depth not breadth. We

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encourage our year seven students to explain what they are learning to

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one another, and explicitly say what they are learning and how they have

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done it. They have only just started secondary school, but these pupils

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know in adult life there will be a global market. When you compete with

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other people from all over the world, you don't know what their

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school has taught them or if it is different from you, you have to try

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hard in everything. Michael Gove is shaking up the education system in

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almost every way, he has brought in new kinds of school, new kinds of

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tests, even new kinds of teacher. The aim of this seemingly constant

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change is to improve the results of English schoolchildren, so they can

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compete on an increasingly global playing field. So, is there anything

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the UK can learn from the Ps of success, like Poland? You can look

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at our reforms and the way we not only change the curriculum but we

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also have the aligning it with the examination system. On the one side

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we give a lot of autonomy, a lot of freedom to teachers and to our

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schools, on the other side we clearly state the goals they have to

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achieve. Then we test whether they achieve these goals or not on

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national exams. That is another thing Michael Gove is changing. He

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said today these results justify his reforms. He's following the most

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successful countries. But Labour disagree, saying he had learned the

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wrong lessons. England's free schools were modelled on Sweden's.

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No other country has fallen so abruptly as Sweden in maths over a

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ten-year period. Across all three measures, reading, maths, science,

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since 2009 Sweden has performed very poorly indeed, and many in Sweden

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regard the ideolgical programme of unqualified teachers and unregulated

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free schools as responsible for their drop in standards. It is the

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DHEAS unfortunately in Sweden results have slid. But as I

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mentioned in my remarks earlier, what we need to do is not just grant

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greater autonomy, as they have to school leaders in Singapore and in

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Hong Kong, in South Korea and elsewhere, we also need a more

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rigorous system of accountability. In such a big complex international

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study, it is easy to cherrypick. I suppose it is an inevitable that

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politicians will want to pick out points that suit their particular

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agendas, for us it is really important that we look at both

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issues of teaching standards, as well as the structures in education,

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and that we also look at the impact on the least advantaged pupils as

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well as on the system as a whole. Describe -- many people say they are

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simply no good at maths as though it is an inate ability. In its own

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conclusions the OECD said that is simply not true. Getting maths right

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is mainly down to hard work and high expectations.

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With us to discuss all that is Christine Blower, General Secretary

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of the National Union of Teachers, Peter Hyman and Mark Lehane. Do you

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recognise the picture painted in the survey? I have been in state

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education for 11 years, some things have changed an awful lot. Some

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things haven't. And what I have talken out of what has come out

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today is things haven't changed, or are not showing through in the

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survey results yet. It is too soon to see a difference. Do you

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recognise the picture painted? What we have done well at is lifting the

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floor over the last ten or 15 years and making the worst schools better,

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we haven't had a wave of innovation. The danger is we have learned the

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wrong lessons from the Far East, we think it is about rote learning, and

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it may have been at one point, but they have learned and moved on and

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are becoming problem-solvers and creative at the point we were

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chasing what they are doing ten years ago. Coming to the question

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about how we teach as opposed to what we teach necessarily, it is an

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indictment of teachers this isn't it? No it isn't. If you actually

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look at the figures today maths results are up for the UK, they are

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at the OECD average, and we have got fewer low-performers and we have got

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about the OECD of high-performers. You are pleased with these? That is

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not to say that schools can't improve things. We are essentially a

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self-improving profession. But it is just wrong to say that we stagnate

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or dropped. We are 26th in maths? Yes, and we used to be 28th. That is

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good is it? It is improving, it is not stagnating and not getting

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worse. Peter is right that actually what we really need to be doing is

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encouraging problem solving and creativity rather than rote

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learning. There is place for rote learning but it isn't the be all and

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end all of teaching. It doesn't measure literature or writing,

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creativity, which isn't to say maths and science aren't important, of

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course they are, but there is a broader picture here as well. There

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are a range of international surveys done every so often, there is some

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students that I taught a few years ago took part in that. They measure

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quite a narrow range of things. When you look across those, the general

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picture we have seen is gentle decline, that is fair to say, or a

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steady state. That's not good enough. As I say to the students at

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my school, you can employ in China a tri-lingual graduate for the same

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cost as someone stacking shelves in Bedford for Tesco, if we want to

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keep jobs in the country there is no point in being in the middle we have

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to be in the top 10%. We have had a catch-up policy not a get out there

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model. What is fascinating is the next survey in 2015 will measure

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collaborative probl solving. You may ask how will they do that. But Pisa

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has caught up with the way the world is going. That is the table, the

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Mecca? We are getting more traditional about measuring exam,

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Pisa is saying they want collaboration to be measured,

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creativity and problem solving. That is the right way of going. You

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expect a better result? Only if we follow that. Only if we don't go in

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the reverse direction. But the other thing is the very figures themselves

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are contested. If you had on for example Martin Steven, the former

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High Master of St Paul's, he would say the basic methodology is flawed,

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because actually there are children in all jurisdictions that don't

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answer all the questions and make assessments of what they might have

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said. It is from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and

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Development isn't it? But the fact is it is open to contest. What is

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true is people do teach to the test in other countries, perhaps we

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should, but we don't. Is that one of the things that has gone wrong with

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education in this country, teachers teaching to the tests? If you have

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high-stakes tests then you would expect teachers to do that because

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there is a survival mechanism. Also they don't want the children to fail

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do they. All I would say is Peter says we have been getting more

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traditional in approaches to teaching and what we are covering. I

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know the reason why Peter set up his school and the teachers behind my

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school in Bedford set up the school, we think you can have your cake and

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eat it, you can have a traditional and core approach to the basics and

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blow open and be radical in how you address other things. That is

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exactly what we are doing at Bedford Free School, that is one of the

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things you will hopefully see it again when they do this again in

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2015 and 2018, a lot of the reforms you will see the benefits coming to

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fruition then. The National Union of Teachers thinks all schools should

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have that level of curriculum and autonomy, you shouldn't have to be a

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free school or academy. It is important that all schools and

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teachers are trusted to develop the curriculum. That way you do get a

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multiple approach. I don't think there is anything we are doing at

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our school, School 21 that couldn't have been done in my last school, a

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Community School. We are working on well being of the students, their

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oral communication, we are working on project-based learning, which

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means giving real tasks to student that is have value in the real

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world. I hope you are being engaged with the community, that is an

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important aspect. A lot of the projects are out in the community.

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One of the big changes we are seeing is not just what we are teaching, it

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is easier for new entrants to come into local areas and shake things up

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where they are needed, we are doing that Bedford. Hopefully that will

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spread those ideas further afield. I do d'oh any of you have an

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opportunity to have comparison with, you could benefit from Chinese

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education but you have to live in China, a bit of a downside many

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people might think. There are cultural differences, absolutely,

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between living here and China. There are a few things Chinese people are

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doing over here. What about your kids and how they behave or whether

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they will be happier or more successful adults than children

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being raised in South Korea or Singapore or Taiwan or wherever it

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is? It is balance of these qualities, the child suicide rates

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are very high in some of those countries. You want the balance of

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happiness and well being in the child, the rounded child, but also

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academic success. Ironically given how badly we have done on some other

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scales for happiness for children. In these OECD studies it does show

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that children in the UK are generally, generally feeling happy

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at school. Now actually children from low socioeconomic groups tend

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to feel less happy in school, and that's a big issue. Actually if you

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strip out social class, children in these studies are doing as well in

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state schools as they are in private schools. So you know, it is true

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that social class and socioeconomic status in families does make a

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difference to children's capacity. What has been shown in recent

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history is the difference in ambition and aspiration, but in

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cultures where education is seen as the key thing to do and families

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invest in it, they do very well. In those countries hard work is

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rewarded n this country we still have an ethos that the talented

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amateur is the person to tell blat, wherein -- celebrate, with where as

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in those countries they believe hard work. It is the idea you are not

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bornal leapted but you work to become successful. The talented

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amateur is Michael Gove's idea for teachers, we believe teachers to

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have proper status and to be properly trained.

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We had to move fast to get off the bridge. Yet another day passed today

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without the former International Development Secretary getting his

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job back, as things stand at present, it is the police whose

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reputation has suffered most in the called "plebgate affair". The

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current Police Commissioner in post hasn't had the happiest times of

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command. How different it would have been if the rules had allowed the

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much more charismatic Bill Bratton from the New York and Los Angeles

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police department to be in charge, as was wanted. Bill Bratton's policy

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of "zero tolerance" in the mid-1990s revolutionised attitudes to law

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enforcement and made him the most sought after police boss in the

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world. The idea, based on an academic theory known as "broken

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windows" was that if you concentrate on reducing relatively minor

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anti-social offences, a reduction in the major would follow. Working

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alongside the mayor, crime fell by a third and the murder rate was

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halved. Mr Bratton then successfully transferred the policy to Los

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Angeles, and there are now suggestions that the new Democrat

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Mayor of New York may be about to ask him to return for another run.

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But could we see his services being used on this side of the Atlantic,

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after riots across the country over the summer of 2011, Bill Bratton

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advised David Cameron on urban and gang violence. The Prime Minister

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was even keen for him to become the Met Police Commissioner, the rules

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at the time stated only British citizens could do the job. Now there

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are plans to change that and to bring in talent from outside the UK.

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The current Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Bernard

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Hogan-Howe's term is up in 2016, which brings the Government plenty

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of time to put the new legislation on the statute book. What would Bill

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Bratton do to restore public trust in the police? Bill Bratton will

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tell us now, I hope, he will join us from his old patch in New York City.

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How do you, Mr Bratton, go about restoring confidence in the police?

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Good evening. I think that first and foremost you need transparency,

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policing for much of its history has been some what hidden behind the

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blue wall, if you will. Increasingly the more successful police

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departments, the more successful police leaders have embraced

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transparency. The idea of opening up their organisations to greater

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collaboration with their communities, with their political

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leadership. And the term "collaboration" is one that I

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certainly embrace and I would hope have modelled in the organisations

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that I have been privileged to lead over the last number of years. But

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when you get an apparent distinction between public interest and police

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interest, it is the absolute opposite of what you are talking

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about isn't it? Well, interestingly enough, the founder of modern

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policing, Sir Robert Peel, basically his nine principles of policing

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which, they are my Bible! They are as good now as they were in the

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1800. They are all about the idea of rather than seeing the two as

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separate, the idea again of providing platform where they can

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join and collaberate. So that the two, when they go their separate

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ways that is when you have your problems. You mentioned the

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transferability across the Atlantic of his principles to your country,

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what about, any object lessons you could have brought from the United

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States, New York, or Los Angeles to Britain? Well in the introduction to

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this piece that there was an error that I would like to correct, that

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the emphasis on "zero tolerance" as you referred to "broken windows"

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policing and "zero tolerance" in your country. That in and of itself

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will not solve any issue, either public satisfaction with the police

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or police effectiveness. What we did not do in this country which, I

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would argue you did not do in your country also was understand that you

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couldn't just focus on serious crimes and neglect the minor crimes,

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that is effectively what happened in my country in the 70s and 80, and as

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I have come to understand the situation in your country. You went

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the same thing, you began depolicing the enforcement of mine in the

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streets, which was what Sir Robert Peel was all about when he created a

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bobby, the police presence in the streets to prevent crime. You won't

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prevent crime by just looking at serious crime, it is looking at what

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causes it over time and what is neglected. It is what happens when

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the small crime is neglected the criminal feels embolden to commit

:19:17.:19:21.

big crime. It is amazing to read those principles about how right he

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had it then and they are appropriate for 21st century policing, whether

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in my country or yours. What about the minor crimes in this country

:19:31.:19:35.

that they are not cracking down on? My sense is the hooliganism, the

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term he used, the idea of the rowdiness associated with the

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emptying of the pubs at a certain time. My personal issue with

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graffiti, unchecked graph feety not covered over very quick -- graffiti,

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not covered over more quickly or dealt with quickly. I think your

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issues are the same as the American issues, the sense that when the

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public feels that the police are not dealing with things that are making

:20:05.:20:09.

them fearful. Whether it is aggressive begs, whether it is use

:20:10.:20:13.

of narcotics and open view, whether it is street prostitution. These are

:20:14.:20:19.

often times described as victimless crimes, the idea that there is not a

:20:20.:20:23.

victim, that the person seeking the services of the prostitute, the

:20:24.:20:27.

person spray-painting graffiti or smoking a joint in public, the

:20:28.:20:31.

victim may not be an individual, the victim is society. The victim is the

:20:32.:20:34.

neighbourhood and the community, the victim is the city. And there is no

:20:35.:20:39.

place more emblematic of that than New York City in the 1980s, where

:20:40.:20:44.

for 20 years all that type of anti-social behaviour was not dealt

:20:45.:20:49.

with by the police. And the public began to lose trust in the police,

:20:50.:20:52.

began to lose trust in Government. Then it was compounded by, in our

:20:53.:20:56.

case in the United States because of the gun violence that is so

:20:57.:21:00.

prevalent here. The horrific violent crime, the combination of the two

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together left unaddressed successfully, led to a great loss of

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faith in policing and Government. Would you like to come over to

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London and do what you did in New York? It remains to be seen. I

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happen to be a good friend and admirer of your current

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commissioner. I think that some of the recent statistics that I have

:21:19.:21:22.

seen have been produced by the Met, very promising. Understanding that

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you have got political issues that are being wrestled with at this time

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over there that I made it quite well known that at some point in my life

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if the position were to open that would be certainly something I would

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take a look at. The position is not open and is not likely to open for a

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few years, in the meantime I think you have g somebody in position

:21:45.:21:48.

there doing a pretty God job. Thank you very much indeed. An

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individual, a committee of politicians and the question "do you

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love this country"? It sounds like Senator Joe McCarthy, and his

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un-American activities commission. It wasn't, it was the chairman of

:22:05.:22:09.

the Home Affairs Select Committee, the never knowingly understated Vaz,

:22:10.:22:14.

having a go at the editor of the Guardian, talking about the evidence

:22:15.:22:18.

stolen by Edward Snowden. He replied that the newspaper loved the country

:22:19.:22:21.

and was trying to defend its democratic values. It wasn't only Mr

:22:22.:22:25.

Vaz asking him challenging questions, here is a flavour of the

:22:26.:22:31.

exchanges. Some of the criticisms against you in the Guardian have

:22:32.:22:35.

been very, very personal, you and I were both born outside this country

:22:36.:22:42.

but I love this country, do you love this country? How do you answer

:22:43.:22:48.

that? We live in a democracy. Most of the people working on this story

:22:49.:22:52.

are British people who have families in this country who love this

:22:53.:22:56.

country. I'm slightly surprised to be asked the question, but yes we

:22:57.:23:01.

are patriots and one of the things we are patriotic about is the nature

:23:02.:23:05.

of the democracy and the nature of a free press and the fact that one

:23:06.:23:08.

can, in this country, discuss and report these things. It isn't only

:23:09.:23:12.

about what you have published it is about what you have communicated.

:23:13.:23:16.

That is what amounts or can amount to a criminal offence. You have

:23:17.:23:21.

caused the communication of secret documents. We classify things as

:23:22.:23:27.

"secret" and "top secret" in this country for a reason, not to hide

:23:28.:23:32.

them from the Guardian but from those who harm us. You have

:23:33.:23:34.

communecated those documents. Is that a question? If you had known

:23:35.:23:39.

about the enigma code during World War II would you have transmitted

:23:40.:23:43.

that information to the Nazis. That is a well worn red herring if you

:23:44.:23:47.

don't mind me saying so. We invited the chairman of that committee and

:23:48.:23:51.

the man who asked Mr Rusbridger if he loves his country to tell us why

:23:52.:23:56.

he had asked the question. At first he said yes, and then he changed his

:23:57.:23:59.

mind and decided he couldn't make it afterall. We are joined by two other

:24:00.:24:04.

members of the committee, the Lib Dem Julian Huppert, and the

:24:05.:24:09.

Conservative Mark Reckless. What did you think when the question was

:24:10.:24:13.

asked? I was some what surprised by it, I don't think it gets to the

:24:14.:24:17.

heart of the issue. There is a huge issue about the surveillance, and it

:24:18.:24:20.

is amazing while there is debate in Germany and the US and around the

:24:21.:24:23.

rest of the world, here is the mobiling cuss of what did the

:24:24.:24:29.

Guardian do. I don't agree with the Guardian in much of what it writes

:24:30.:24:34.

but I wouldn't question that. Why do you think the question was asked? I

:24:35.:24:39.

don't know, I thought it was certainly interesting, it prompted a

:24:40.:24:45.

lot of coverage. What did you think, could you see why it was asked. Was

:24:46.:24:50.

anyone going to answer "no I don't love my country". It was an odd

:24:51.:24:56.

question but it was an odd session. There is this question of what

:24:57.:25:00.

exactly happened. We had the discussion about whether the

:25:01.:25:03.

Guardian broke the Fedex terms and conditions. That is a shame, we are

:25:04.:25:09.

going to have the head of MI 5 to give evidence to our committee. The

:25:10.:25:13.

real question is what can they do and what difference will it make,

:25:14.:25:16.

and how can they do their job properly without invading everyone's

:25:17.:25:20.

privacy. A lot of people from a foreign country would have found it

:25:21.:25:23.

strange that here you are haul anything a newspaper editor instead

:25:24.:25:27.

of asking why were the intelligence agencies up to what they were

:25:28.:25:30.

clearly up to? The Guardian has asked those questions, and I'm not

:25:31.:25:33.

calling into question the editorial judgment it has made. What I'm

:25:34.:25:37.

concerned about is how it has treated the information, whether it

:25:38.:25:40.

has applied the appropriate security, and in particular it seems

:25:41.:25:43.

to have communicated that information about members of

:25:44.:25:48.

Intelligence Services overseas and it appears three different

:25:49.:25:52.

circumstances. I just wonder if that's put potentially our agents,

:25:53.:25:56.

employees of the services into danger and whether the Guardian

:25:57.:26:01.

really needed to transfer, to communicate that information

:26:02.:26:04.

overseas in the way it did. Do you think an offence has been committed?

:26:05.:26:07.

It may well have been. So should there be a prosecution? I think the

:26:08.:26:11.

offence has been committed in terms of the communication of the data

:26:12.:26:14.

about members of the Intelligence Services, I think it could be useful

:26:15.:26:18.

to people who might be concerned in terrorism. The question is, whether

:26:19.:26:21.

the Guardian was justified in doing that, and whether it would be a

:26:22.:26:25.

public interest in prosecution. That is a matter for the CPS. The issue

:26:26.:26:30.

wasn't, was what the Guardian published in the public interest,

:26:31.:26:33.

but was it the way it treated the information in the public interest.

:26:34.:26:37.

In particular transferring 50 thousand miles to the New York Times

:26:38.:26:42.

and this issue about James Miranda on his games console going ow over

:26:43.:26:47.

to Rio and other information Fedexed. Why was the Guardian doing

:26:48.:26:53.

that with members of the Intelligence Services. There clearly

:26:54.:26:56.

an offence committed under the Terrorism Act? I don't think it is,

:26:57.:26:59.

because the section referred to in the session actually has a specific

:27:00.:27:07.

clause 583, which says it is not an offence if there is an excuse. I

:27:08.:27:11.

think an international news story would count as a reasonable excuse.

:27:12.:27:16.

I think the Guardian has been really careful. The NSA had all of this

:27:17.:27:21.

information, 58,000 files containing names and other information, yet a

:27:22.:27:25.

contractor with little seniority was able to get hold of it and take it

:27:26.:27:30.

away. There were 850 thousand people with access of t the question is how

:27:31.:27:34.

the NSA lost so much data, any of the other thousands of people could

:27:35.:27:40.

have sent it directly to people who could do us harm. Mobiling cussing

:27:41.:27:43.

on the Guardian is missing the key point. The key point is we know far

:27:44.:27:47.

more about what is happening in our name. This needs to be discussing.

:27:48.:27:54.

That what are the rules, we benefit massively from the Intelligence

:27:55.:27:59.

Service,s what are the limits, what is OK to do and what is not. Isn't

:28:00.:28:04.

it amazing that 850,000 people had access to this information? I'm not

:28:05.:28:09.

sure what that exact number is or how much that information was

:28:10.:28:11.

available and how easily to those people. But I am concerned that the

:28:12.:28:15.

information has been sent to a number of different countries, a

:28:16.:28:19.

number of different organisations, by the Guardian, and the security of

:28:20.:28:23.

that information may not be what it needs to be. In particular that

:28:24.:28:27.

foreign countries and their Intelligence Services may now have

:28:28.:28:31.

access to who our agents are in way they didn't before. That is an

:28:32.:28:36.

issue. The Guardian should assist the Security Services about what

:28:37.:28:39.

information was transferred and who the individuals were, so if

:28:40.:28:42.

necessary they can be protected. That is one point. I think it raises

:28:43.:28:46.

issues about the Intelligence Services, how there is oversight of

:28:47.:28:49.

that. I think it would be important in parliament to elect at least the

:28:50.:28:54.

subject of vetting, and the chairman and members of that Intelligence

:28:55.:28:58.

Committee who oversee these matters so we can be sure that actually the

:28:59.:29:02.

way they are looking at intelligence, and Julian and I may

:29:03.:29:06.

disagree about this, I may lean more to allowing the services to keep us

:29:07.:29:11.

safe by overseeing the information and seeing if there is suspicious

:29:12.:29:15.

patterns in it. I think parliament should decide and monitor the

:29:16.:29:21.

appropriate limits. By common consent the biggest threat to the

:29:22.:29:24.

spirit of world sport comes from the chemistry laboratories, the problem

:29:25.:29:28.

has been around for the best part of 50 years or so. Now the man at the

:29:29.:29:32.

head of the international organisation responsible foreign

:29:33.:29:34.

suring all sporting competition measures talent rather than who can

:29:35.:29:39.

most successfully get around drugs bans is a 7 #-year-old former bad

:29:40.:29:44.

minute done player, Sir Craig Reedie. I will talk to him shortly.

:29:45.:29:52.

First we have this report. Fast e higher, stronger. Mankind has always

:29:53.:29:57.

sought to perform to the best of its sporting ability. With that desire

:29:58.:30:01.

comes the temptation to gain an advantage, any advantage and emerge

:30:02.:30:06.

at the top of the pod come. Those who seek to cheat are using

:30:07.:30:12.

ever-more efforts to evade the testers. With the world anti-doping

:30:13.:30:17.

authority recognising the need for effective strategies to uncover

:30:18.:30:21.

those breaking the rules has never been more needed. I believe we are

:30:22.:30:24.

doing a vast Himont to keep sport clean. We shouldn't be -- amount to

:30:25.:30:29.

keep sport clean, we shouldn't be complacent. What we need in the

:30:30.:30:33.

deterrent effect is to make sure there is a good risk of the athlete

:30:34.:30:37.

being sampled, that the doping control officer will come and knock

:30:38.:30:41.

on the door and ask for a sample to be collected. And the methods of

:30:42.:30:45.

detection are as sensitive as we can make it. Sports Hall of Fame has big

:30:46.:30:51.

names again it, Lance Armstrong admitted earlier this year he used

:30:52.:30:57.

doping in his victories, tripped of his title, he's attempting to

:30:58.:31:01.

convince authorities he should be allowed back from the ban. Asafa

:31:02.:31:08.

Powell produced a positive test in July. Last week the entire board of

:31:09.:31:12.

the Jamaican anti-doping body resonde. That follows concerns by

:31:13.:31:17.

one doping executive that one out of competition test had been conducted

:31:18.:31:21.

in the six months prior to the London 2012 Olympics. Six Jamaican

:31:22.:31:25.

athletes have tested positive this year. With the Government there

:31:26.:31:29.

promising to back and restore confidence in the anti-doping

:31:30.:31:35.

programme. The London 2012 Olympics were for hundreds of athletes the

:31:36.:31:38.

pinnacle of their sporting career. It was here in East London and

:31:39.:31:42.

venues across the UK that some of the drama only sport can provide was

:31:43.:31:46.

played out. Now only a handful of athletes were caught using

:31:47.:31:49.

performance-enhancing drugs during the games themselves. Now a new

:31:50.:31:55.

casting method threatens to expose those who cheated but went

:31:56.:32:02.

undetected. The samples from the winter Olympics in Turin have been

:32:03.:32:07.

ordered to be unfrozen and examined. The warning is sooner or later you

:32:08.:32:10.

will be caught, even if it is some years after the event itself. We

:32:11.:32:15.

have electronic files on data collected during the Olympics, we

:32:16.:32:17.

have the possibility of going back simply on our electronic records to

:32:18.:32:21.

look for substances we may not have thought of. The idea is to say if

:32:22.:32:27.

you are taking drugs and we collect a sample from you, we will catch

:32:28.:32:31.

you. Nicola Adams know what it takes to win and win clean, Sheehy merged

:32:32.:32:36.

as one of the stars for 2012 for Team GB walking away with gold. Now

:32:37.:32:40.

like many she wants to know with confidence that her opponents are

:32:41.:32:45.

drug-free. I would hate to think I lost a competition to somebody who

:32:46.:32:51.

cheated. I go in there 100% all me. I go to compete and win and I like

:32:52.:32:57.

to think that everybody else, my opponents are doing exactly the same

:32:58.:33:02.

I am. Sir Craig Reedie, a leading figure within the British Olympic

:33:03.:33:06.

movement for many years will lead the doping agency. At 72 he

:33:07.:33:11.

acknowledges this is his final role in sports governance. Can he

:33:12.:33:16.

strengthen the global effort to combat an issue that threatens

:33:17.:33:21.

integrity and soul of sport but its very future too.

:33:22.:33:25.

Sir Craig Reedie joins us now from our Glasgow studio. Is this a

:33:26.:33:30.

problem, drug use in sport, that is getting worse? I would like to think

:33:31.:33:34.

that it isn't. I would like to think that it's getting marginally better,

:33:35.:33:37.

but I'm not niave enough to believe that we can win, absolutely. The

:33:38.:33:42.

problem will not go away. As one of your speakers there said it has been

:33:43.:33:46.

around for 50 years. I think there is evidence that we are beginning to

:33:47.:33:50.

get on top of it, the London Games was a good example. But it wasn't so

:33:51.:33:56.

much the very few people who were tested and caught positive during

:33:57.:34:00.

the games, it was the very sophisticated pre-games operation

:34:01.:34:05.

which was run by the IOC and the UK Anti-Doping Agency. Which I think

:34:06.:34:09.

encouraged somewhere over 30 athletes didn't appear in London at

:34:10.:34:12.

all. I think that's rather encouraging. You raised the question

:34:13.:34:16.

at the London Olympic Games there, given that there are samples and

:34:17.:34:21.

they are now capable of being analysed for presence of drugs maybe

:34:22.:34:26.

six months before the test was carried out. Frozen samples, do you

:34:27.:34:30.

think that they should be re-examined now, maybe even the

:34:31.:34:38.

Beijing Olympics too? There is a of limitations under the standard

:34:39.:34:41.

anti-doping codes which is eight years. Let's talk about the IOC they

:34:42.:34:46.

have a period of eight iritis within which they can retest frozen sample,

:34:47.:34:51.

that period under the new code will be extended to ten years. As one of

:34:52.:34:57.

your speakers said technology gets better, testing gets better and we

:34:58.:35:02.

are able to turn around to athletes and say if you cheat now we may well

:35:03.:35:06.

be able to test you at a later date and catch you when the technology

:35:07.:35:10.

gets better. And it wouldn't surprise me at all that London

:35:11.:35:14.

samples wouldn't be tested eight years from the London Games. Do you

:35:15.:35:18.

think they should be tested? I do, I think it is a major, major

:35:19.:35:23.

deterrent, at the end of the day the whole object of this exercise is to

:35:24.:35:28.

protect the clean athlete. I spent most of my sporting life trying to

:35:29.:35:32.

promote sport to young people, and I need people to believe, athletes to

:35:33.:35:37.

believe it is clean. I think this is a very good way of doing it. Not all

:35:38.:35:41.

samples are retested. They are done on a selected basis. And I mean

:35:42.:35:47.

London took somewhere around about 5,300 sample, it would be really

:35:48.:35:50.

over the top to test them all. But I think a reasonable selection will be

:35:51.:35:56.

tested at a future date in the knowledge of better testing

:35:57.:36:01.

procedures. That would mean the theoretical possibility that some

:36:02.:36:05.

medallists in the London Games could be tripped of their medals?.

:36:06.:36:08.

Absolutely, and the IOC have struggled with that regularly over

:36:09.:36:12.

the last five or six years, ever since the policy started. We have

:36:13.:36:16.

had medals returned to us, and they have been medals reawarded, they are

:36:17.:36:21.

done under the main, in the main under the rules of the international

:36:22.:36:25.

sports federation. The IOC would cancel a medal award and reallocate

:36:26.:36:29.

it. But, yes, that is entirely possible. I hope that too is a

:36:30.:36:34.

sanction. I'm sure you are a very fit and robust man, but do you feel

:36:35.:36:41.

tough enough for this job? It is an intellectual challenge. If you spent

:36:42.:36:45.

all your days trying to encourage people to do things, you now take up

:36:46.:36:51.

the heading of an organisation which in many ways tells people what not

:36:52.:36:57.

to do. You know, officials in the anti-doping community in some ways

:36:58.:37:05.

are policemen. That is a tough role. But at the end of the day if we

:37:06.:37:09.

can't be seen to win this battle then young people will not be

:37:10.:37:12.

encouraged to take part in sport, and people who watch it will

:37:13.:37:16.

question the validity of it. We will not have again the bonders of the

:37:17.:37:20.

London Olympic Games which I thought were outstanding for everybody who

:37:21.:37:23.

took part and certainly everybody who watched them. Thank you very

:37:24.:37:28.

much for joining us, thank you. Now for a strange dark side of our

:37:29.:37:31.

national life that most of us never see, and it is not the parliament

:37:32.:37:37.

channel! Urban exploring is the strictly unlicensed pursuit of going

:37:38.:37:41.

into places where you are not really meant to be, sewers, derelict

:37:42.:37:46.

buildings, or to the top of sky scrapers without taking a lift. Are

:37:47.:37:52.

these intrepid types taking a stand against property lying idle or

:37:53.:37:56.

surveillance culture or are they troublemakers going where they are

:37:57.:38:02.

not wanted. Stephen Smith has made it a habit of working completely in

:38:03.:38:07.

the dark. Don't try this at home. How are you feeling? I'm loving

:38:08.:38:11.

this, it doesn't get any better. Any plans for the weekend, or are you

:38:12.:38:14.

just hanging out? Oh my God. If you haven't

:38:15.:38:36.

encountered it before, this is the high-adrenaline, high-rise and

:38:37.:38:40.

high-stakes past time of urban exploring. Taking the fresh air

:38:41.:38:47.

route up the side of the Shard in London, for example, the tallest

:38:48.:38:55.

building in Europe. Newsnight went out for a night on the town in

:38:56.:39:09.

London with with Bradley Garrett, university person during the day and

:39:10.:39:13.

explorer at night. We see the skyline behind us, what do you see,

:39:14.:39:17.

a jungle gym, a world of opportunities, what is it? It is a

:39:18.:39:20.

realm of possibility and opportunity. Over the past four

:39:21.:39:25.

years we have climbed almost every major construction project in the

:39:26.:39:28.

city. We have climbed the Walkie Talkie building, the Cheese Grater,

:39:29.:39:33.

Heron Tower, there is something really enticing about walking into a

:39:34.:39:37.

building and kind of unravelling its history one thread at a time and

:39:38.:39:40.

trying to piece together the history of that place on your own. Paris,

:39:41.:39:50.

why go potholing on some lonely moor when you could go spelunking through

:39:51.:39:54.

the French sewers instead, like Bradley and friends. For the urban

:39:55.:40:05.

explorer half the fun is posting images like this on-line once you

:40:06.:40:11.

make it back, assuming you do. Injury and worse goes with the

:40:12.:40:20.

unauthorised territory. This is the Forth Bridge as you have never seen

:40:21.:40:24.

it before, filmed from a element-mounted camera as urban

:40:25.:40:29.

explorers shuffle across its mighty arches on their back sides. We did

:40:30.:40:33.

have a bit of a scare about three-quarters of the way down the

:40:34.:40:37.

bridge when it started raining, we had to move fast to get off the

:40:38.:40:41.

bridge, you don't want to be stuck on a bridge when it is raining.

:40:42.:40:45.

Bradley Garrett can't be prosecuted for trespass as it is not a criminal

:40:46.:40:49.

offence in the UK. Though he and others have appeared in court

:40:50.:40:52.

charged with criminal damage, following an alleged incident on the

:40:53.:40:57.

underground. What would you say to people who say what business is it

:40:58.:41:06.

of yours to enter these premises in this slightly cloak and dagger way?

:41:07.:41:12.

Obviously there are certain lines that you draw. You would never go

:41:13.:41:15.

into someone's house, for instance. But there are certain place,

:41:16.:41:19.

certainly places that were built and maintained with taxpayer money that

:41:20.:41:23.

urban explorers feel they have, you know, they have a certain right to

:41:24.:41:27.

see if they want to see them. What about this place over here then,

:41:28.:41:31.

that wouldn't have been built with tax-payers' money, I'm guessing? No,

:41:32.:41:37.

not at all. But it was empty, it was covered in scaffolding, it wasn't

:41:38.:41:41.

being used for any particular purpose. As long as you don't damage

:41:42.:41:45.

it and nothing gets broken and you know hopefully the police don't get

:41:46.:41:48.

called and you don't waste their time. And nobody gets hurt? And

:41:49.:41:52.

nobody gets hurt. Nothing has been affected. Emerging from the high

:41:53.:42:03.

grass in a corner of Regent's Park, it is Sir Simon Jenkins, chairman of

:42:04.:42:09.

the National Trust, and fully paid up member of the great and good.

:42:10.:42:13.

Naturally he thoroughly disapproves of pesky urban exploresers, ex--

:42:14.:42:19.

explorers, except that he doesn't really. This is where I came as a

:42:20.:42:26.

tiny boy, it was my sort of Loiin, the Witch and the Wardrobe

:42:27.:42:29.

territory. He used to let himself in to the ruins of a great house that

:42:30.:42:36.

once stood here. When I did my urban exploring in my youth we could go

:42:37.:42:41.

around dozens of warehouse, old churches, houses in Spitalfield,

:42:42.:42:48.

wonderful all sea captains' houses in Deptford, the London dock, the

:42:49.:42:53.

top of St Pancras Station. You were chased away by turnkeys and janitors

:42:54.:43:02.

were you? Frequently, all the time. With all of your weight on the

:43:03.:43:10.

National Trust that urban exploring is a good thing? There are

:43:11.:43:13.

circumstances where simply drawing attention to an empty property, that

:43:14.:43:17.

is wrong, can deliver good. It draws attention to it, it says to the

:43:18.:43:21.

people who own it, this is wrong, we have used for these build, come on

:43:22.:43:30.

now let as discuss it. Urban explorers have taken remarkable

:43:31.:43:33.

photographs like these, here and in Europe. They are accidental curators

:43:34.:43:44.

of a portfolio of lost properties. Those pictures were taken by these

:43:45.:43:49.

British urban explorers. There is an element of maybe urban archaeology.

:43:50.:43:55.

It is not like a strict science, but you are going there, having

:43:56.:43:58.

experiences and continuing the life cycle of that building by just being

:43:59.:44:01.

there and interacting with the objects you find, and you do find

:44:02.:44:04.

out little small stories about people, their lives, just from the

:44:05.:44:08.

documentation left behind. It is quite interesting to actually

:44:09.:44:11.

interact with that and be there with it instead of it all falling into

:44:12.:44:21.

nothingness and decay. Back on the Thames embankment, Bradley Garrett

:44:22.:44:25.

is off on his adventures again, in another unseen London, the world of

:44:26.:44:29.

urban exploration and things that go jump in the night! Now tomorrow

:44:30.:44:35.

morning's front pages: That's all from us tonight, I will

:44:36.:45:20.

be back with more tomorrow, I will leave you with London mayor Boris

:45:21.:45:26.

Johnson, stopped in his tracks on a London radio station when he was

:45:27.:45:30.

asked if he knew the cost of a rail fare, it is one way to kill minutes

:45:31.:45:33.

of air time. How much would it cost you to travel one way, angel to

:45:34.:45:39.

London Bridge? On what, on an oyster card? No just a one-off trip, you

:45:40.:45:45.

have forgotten your oyster, angel to London Bridge, how much will that

:45:46.:45:50.

cost you. (Countdown music) Here we go, here is the whole list, OK. Even

:45:51.:45:56.

I knew this. I don't use the things. If you want a one-way, a one-way...

:45:57.:46:11.

It is currently... . In zones 1-7 it is ?6. 70. Single? I don't think

:46:12.:46:19.

that's right either? That is what it says here! It seems unbelievably

:46:20.:46:30.

expensive to me, that is outrageous! Big changes in the weather over the

:46:31.:46:34.

next few days, through the morning we are going to push the band

:46:35.:46:35.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman, looking at: why UK education is stagnating in world league tables; the former head of NY and LA police on the state of the British force; the Guardian's editor faces MPs; drugs in sport; and urban explorers.


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