02/12/2013 Newsnight


02/12/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Protest, punch-ups and now the Government of Ukraine says

:00:09.:00:13.

demonstrators are trying to stage a coup. What has happened to a

:00:14.:00:19.

campaign which began as an attempt to embrace European democracy. I met

:00:20.:00:27.

someone and they make me feel so happy, so safe and everything just

:00:28.:00:36.

feels great. A British sporting hero comes out on YouTube. Why do so many

:00:37.:00:42.

sports stars choose to stay in the closet.

:00:43.:00:46.

Have smartphones turned us all into idiots. We talk to Randi Zuckerberg

:00:47.:00:50.

about the state of being together alone, or alone together.

:00:51.:00:59.

Before all that, yet another problem tonight for the Royal Bank of

:01:00.:01:06.

Scotland. This evening it became the bank that likes to say... Sorry we

:01:07.:01:10.

cannot process your transaction. As if it wasn't enough to have played

:01:11.:01:14.

such a role in bankrupting the country and just a week or so to

:01:15.:01:17.

have been accused of running businesses into the ground. Tonight,

:01:18.:01:22.

part of its IT system went into meltdown on what is said to be the

:01:23.:01:26.

busiest internet shopping day of the year, great numbers of customers

:01:27.:01:31.

were unable to use their cards. Our own Andrew Verity is here, along

:01:32.:01:39.

with Paul Lewis, presenter of Radio 4's MoneyBox. What happened? Around

:01:40.:01:43.

of 6. 30 you had reports of transactions being declined. Just at

:01:44.:01:47.

the time when people are looking to buy groceries after work. Then you

:01:48.:01:50.

had a report of a supermarket in Kent where NatWest cards had been

:01:51.:01:55.

declined en masse. Was it an isolated example, have a look at

:01:56.:01:58.

Twitter it turned out not. There were hundreds and hundreds of

:01:59.:02:01.

examples coming in from Twitter of people who had transactions

:02:02.:02:05.

declined. To give you a flavour of those, "there goes my plan to get

:02:06.:02:11.

Christmas shopping bargains tonight, daughter stuck in Leeds with no

:02:12.:02:14.

money for the bus, thanks NatWest your system failure means I can't

:02:15.:02:21.

pay for it". To avoid confusion, NatWest belongs to Lloyd's? We

:02:22.:02:25.

bailed them both out after the crisis yes. The customers of NatWest

:02:26.:02:29.

reporting great difficulties all over. This happened between 6. 30

:02:30.:02:35.

and 9. 30 and 10.00. It was affecting on-line banking and debit

:02:36.:02:40.

transactions, on-line banking came up about 10.00, and it looked like

:02:41.:02:45.

debit card transactions are back. The chaoses causing, one tweet today

:02:46.:02:50.

my colleague Paul. My autistic son is stressed as card not working in

:02:51.:02:55.

shops or machines, doing my best to help him by phones. You are the

:02:56.:03:01.

Messiah in these circumstances if people start tweeting your account

:03:02.:03:09.

for grumbles. How bad is this? In 18 months in June last year they had a

:03:10.:03:13.

real problem where systems went out for a week in the case of RBS

:03:14.:03:17.

customer, slightly for more NatWest. For Ulster Bank, part of the same

:03:18.:03:21.

group, they were without any access to their bank accounts for a month.

:03:22.:03:25.

And that often meant that their employer couldn't pay them because

:03:26.:03:28.

they couldn't get the money into the bank. It was an absolutely major

:03:29.:03:34.

catastrophe then. What I have been told by RBS tonight is they will

:03:35.:03:38.

compensate people for any losses, if your car is stuck at the carriage

:03:39.:03:43.

full of petrol and you can't pay for it. I have had several tweets along

:03:44.:03:48.

those lines, how do you get home, taxi and hope somebody at home has

:03:49.:03:53.

the money. They will reimburse the expenses. Even last time with the

:03:54.:03:57.

really big problems they had, they didn't pay compensation. There was

:03:58.:04:01.

another minor event that lasted a few hours in March this year. People

:04:02.:04:04.

with that banking group have really suffered from these IT problems.

:04:05.:04:08.

This is not banking group that is in robust good health, is it? Well, no,

:04:09.:04:13.

in many ways it is not. Though I did notice the other day they were

:04:14.:04:20.

discussing making ?500 million worth of bonus payments, whether that will

:04:21.:04:23.

happen we will have to see. Last year Ulster Bank directors didn't

:04:24.:04:27.

take their bonus, I don't know if you recall that. We spent a lot of

:04:28.:04:31.

money bailing Ulster Bank out too. It is part of the same group, they

:04:32.:04:36.

didn't take their bonuses but RBS and NatWest did. There are all sorts

:04:37.:04:39.

of allegations about small businesses and how one bit of the

:04:40.:04:42.

bank has tried to put them out of business so the other bank bit could

:04:43.:04:45.

take their property over. Completely denied, of course. And of course the

:04:46.:04:50.

mis-selling of payment protection insurance, not unique to RBS but

:04:51.:04:54.

affecting a lot of people too. It is the human side too, people

:04:55.:05:00.

humiliated at restaurants and turned down for their cards. A lot of

:05:01.:05:06.

embarrassing dates and early nights! There was an almost plainive tone to

:05:07.:05:12.

the President of Ukraine today as he appealed to citizens to calm down

:05:13.:05:17.

and not protesting about his Government. The fact that much of

:05:18.:05:20.

his Government couldn't function because of the protest had something

:05:21.:05:23.

to do it. The anger is triggered because he seemed to have decided

:05:24.:05:26.

that the country lies less in a closer relationship with the

:05:27.:05:30.

European Union, than keeping sweet with President Putin. The Russian's

:05:31.:05:38.

ideal leader is a ventriloquist's dummy of course. There are now calls

:05:39.:05:42.

for a general strike to bring down the Government. In the battle for

:05:43.:05:48.

Ukraine, protest is becoming increasingly violent, and the stakes

:05:49.:05:57.

undoubtedly are being raised. What started with demos about the

:05:58.:06:00.

President's rejection of partnership agreement with the EU is turning

:06:01.:06:05.

into a struggle about power and how it is wielded. The police made a

:06:06.:06:11.

mistake when they dispersed the crowd. Lots of people who previously

:06:12.:06:16.

did not support European integration, or were not ready to go

:06:17.:06:19.

on to the streets to show their views, if they supported the

:06:20.:06:25.

European integration, felt angry on Saturday and on Sunday and today, of

:06:26.:06:30.

course, and more and more people have gone out into the streets and

:06:31.:06:35.

some people are becoming very anxious about it. This has become a

:06:36.:06:39.

conflict about Ukraine's true colours. Most Ukrainians say they

:06:40.:06:47.

feel European, but last month pedestrianian put closer ties to

:06:48.:06:53.

Russia ahead of the EU deal. It is a curious mismatch that when the

:06:54.:06:56.

Ukrainians were prepared for integration the rest of Europe was

:06:57.:07:00.

not, when the rest of Europe is offering that integration, the

:07:01.:07:05.

leadership in the Ukraine is incapable of accepting the offer. It

:07:06.:07:08.

is difficult to know what the population itself thinks. But

:07:09.:07:13.

clearly there is a feeling, certainly among intellectuals and

:07:14.:07:17.

almost any professional person in Ukraine that this is going back in

:07:18.:07:23.

history rather than going forward. Today the President, responding to

:07:24.:07:27.

four days of protest insisted they must be carried on peacefully. Other

:07:28.:07:34.

Government figures accuse ultras, professional agitators of hijacking

:07:35.:07:44.

them and trying to mount a coup. Tran People are told to capture all

:07:45.:07:51.

the administrative buildings. To block the functioning of an

:07:52.:07:58.

administrative institution, to put forward ultimatums and this is the

:07:59.:08:04.

way which will lead them nowhere. Now open revolt is spreading in the

:08:05.:08:10.

west of the country, it is traditionally pro-western half. A

:08:11.:08:14.

fragile economy is tottering. There is no-one size fits all easy win

:08:15.:08:18.

outcome here for either side, because I think the current

:08:19.:08:21.

President doesn't particularly want to give in to becoming a province of

:08:22.:08:26.

Russia. And I think the protesters must know there isn't an easy way to

:08:27.:08:30.

become part of the European Union space. The deal the European Union

:08:31.:08:35.

offered was full of, it was a real package of reforms aimed at helping

:08:36.:08:40.

Ukraine slowly but steadily move away from its current state. And

:08:41.:08:44.

some of those reforms will probably end up being adopted, even by the

:08:45.:08:47.

current Government f it stays in power as part of a deal. With

:08:48.:08:54.

opposition loaders uniting to try a no-confidence motion in parliament,

:08:55.:08:59.

President Putin accused them of turning the EU issue to their

:09:00.:09:02.

advantage, jockeying for a presidential election that is

:09:03.:09:07.

planned for three months time. TRANSLATION: In my opinion, all that

:09:08.:09:11.

is happening has no direct connection with the Ukraine-EU

:09:12.:09:15.

relationship, it is a domestic political process, an attempt by the

:09:16.:09:20.

opposition to shake the acting and legitimate, I would like to stress

:09:21.:09:23.

that, authorities. More than that what is happening now shows it is

:09:24.:09:32.

not at all a revolution but well planned actions. Ukraine opinion

:09:33.:09:37.

itself has been divided on the question of EU partnership, and

:09:38.:09:41.

pedestrianian was elected. But the harsher the measures -- the

:09:42.:09:44.

President was elected, but the harsher the measures taken the more

:09:45.:09:49.

he reminds the country of the old Soviet leaders and thus loses

:09:50.:09:54.

support to the opposition. For the past decade Ukraine has been pushed

:09:55.:09:57.

and pulled between east and west. The battle now taking place on

:09:58.:10:02.

Kiev's streets may decide the fate of Prime Minister and President, but

:10:03.:10:07.

that tension between its own people, as much as outsiders, will take far

:10:08.:10:13.

longer to resolve. Just before we came on air I spoke to the Russian

:10:14.:10:19.

activist and husband of one of the Pussy Riot members, I asked him how

:10:20.:10:24.

long these protests were going to continue. It is really hard to see

:10:25.:10:29.

right now since they have basically started for the first time a week

:10:30.:10:34.

ago, and at this scale they have been going on for the last three

:10:35.:10:39.

days and to the maximum point since Sunday, and I think everything will

:10:40.:10:45.

depend on the results of the negotiations between the opposition

:10:46.:10:47.

parliament members and the Government. Because for example for

:10:48.:10:53.

tomorrow morning it is a very important vote scheduled which will

:10:54.:10:57.

give the answer to the question, will the parliaments be able to make

:10:58.:11:11.

pedestrianian to pedestrianian resign. You know -- President

:11:12.:11:21.

Yanukovych resign. People are talking about this like a coup, is

:11:22.:11:25.

that what it looks like? It is not a coup for the Ukrainian people down

:11:26.:11:31.

here, to them it was simply an act of taking to the streets and trying

:11:32.:11:36.

to defend what they think is their rights to live in a civilised

:11:37.:11:39.

country, to be a part of the European community and this is what

:11:40.:11:44.

is what they do. This is democratically elected Government

:11:45.:11:47.

isn't it? At the same time these people really did not, when they

:11:48.:11:50.

elected President Yanukovych they did not sign to the fact that they

:11:51.:11:55.

will be basically dealing with the situation when President Yanukovych

:11:56.:11:58.

will be coming under the influence of President Putin. And making

:11:59.:12:03.

decisions that most Ukrainians definitely do not agree with. This

:12:04.:12:06.

is why there is so many people on the street. This is why the protests

:12:07.:12:10.

have reached a scale they have reached right now. But the protests

:12:11.:12:16.

seem to an outsider hardly to be politically coherent, there are

:12:17.:12:20.

extreme nationalists among the protesters aren't there? I wouldn't

:12:21.:12:26.

say the extreme nationalists were playing an important political role

:12:27.:12:30.

here. Obviously from a purely political side the protests are

:12:31.:12:37.

headed by three members of the three opposition factions inside the

:12:38.:12:40.

parliament and two of those members are not nationalists at all. You

:12:41.:12:45.

really think that President Yanukovych is going to resign, do

:12:46.:12:49.

you? It is hard to see what the Government will choose as their

:12:50.:12:54.

response to the protests right now. But definitely President Yanukovych

:12:55.:13:01.

and his Government will start making very important negotiation offers to

:13:02.:13:05.

the opposition right now, it is clear these protests

:13:06.:14:45.

a Greg Louganis won a medal in the Olympics and came out publicly in

:14:46.:14:53.

the mid-90s he joins us from San Francisco, what did you make of the

:14:54.:14:56.

announcement today? I think it is wonderful that Tom. I have observed

:14:57.:15:01.

him at various competitions and I had the luxury of seeing him at a

:15:02.:15:05.

lot of the competitions and the thing that impressed me most about

:15:06.:15:10.

Tom Daley, it is not so much how talented he is, he is Anne credibly

:15:11.:15:15.

talented diver, but the way in which he treated his friends and his fans

:15:16.:15:25.

and -- he is an incredibly talented diver, it was the way he treated his

:15:26.:15:29.

friends and fans, he always had a smile on his face. We all want to fe

:15:30.:15:34.

loved and safe, and those were the words in his message, I just really

:15:35.:15:40.

wish the best for him. Were you slightly envious of the times we

:15:41.:15:43.

live in now compared to the times when you came out? It is interesting

:15:44.:15:53.

when I look back at career and a lot of the homophobic comments that were

:15:54.:15:57.

made through my career, you know I have been back to a lot of those

:15:58.:16:01.

people, who have actually become friends. It was more jealousy than

:16:02.:16:10.

it was homophobia. Although there was some homophobia around there. We

:16:11.:16:11.

have come to age What strikes me is the honesty,

:16:12.:16:31.

that these young people feel, in order for them to be all that they

:16:32.:16:35.

can be, they have to be honest with themselves and they need to be

:16:36.:16:41.

honest with the public. It is striking, this is a top-level

:16:42.:16:52.

competitor in team sports it is much more unusual? In team sports it is a

:16:53.:16:56.

little different, because That is why it is a team sport. Unless you

:16:57.:17:03.

are a Michael Jordan, and you carry the team, you know, then it is

:17:04.:17:08.

pretty safe. You need to have the safety and security. That is the

:17:09.:17:14.

thing that Tom said, that he feels safe in a team situation, you have

:17:15.:17:20.

to have that support Of the rest of your team. I think that many players

:17:21.:17:24.

might find it very surprising that they actually might have that

:17:25.:17:29.

support, you know. If they were to Be a little bit more open about who

:17:30.:17:37.

they are. It is hard, it is hard to be the first one to be out there.

:17:38.:17:43.

You know we're inundated with these ideals and what's right and what's

:17:44.:17:49.

wrong and you know, I was born this way. I was born gay, I didn't choose

:17:50.:17:54.

to be gay. It is like me asking somebody who is straight, when did

:17:55.:18:01.

you choose to be straight? You may be a reticent fellow in this sort of

:18:02.:18:07.

matter, do you but have any advice for anyone who is gay and not yet

:18:08.:18:12.

out who is sports man or women? Each individual has their own personal

:18:13.:18:20.

journey, and that journey is you know you first start with people who

:18:21.:18:23.

you feel safe with, and that is actually usually your family and it

:18:24.:18:33.

opens the doors to those that are open and you see the acceptance and

:18:34.:18:39.

the appreciation of your honesty and how well respected that is, then you

:18:40.:18:44.

realise you know it gives you more confidence to come out to other

:18:45.:18:53.

people. Just to share who you are. People on daily basis, they are

:18:54.:18:56.

taking out pictures of their kids and their weddings and all that. You

:18:57.:19:01.

know what, it was just this year that I was able to legally marry my

:19:02.:19:09.

husband. In the state of California, you know. That privilege, that is

:19:10.:19:18.

denied to many people. It is marriage equality, you know, that

:19:19.:19:23.

love is love. It doesn't matter if it is gay or straight, you know. We

:19:24.:19:34.

just want to be loved and love. The Prime Minister and a hoard of 100

:19:35.:19:40.

capitist big wigs are in China tonight, enjoying the kind

:19:41.:19:43.

hospitality of the people's Republic. Arguments about human

:19:44.:19:48.

rights, the situation in Tibet and so on have been laid aside in much

:19:49.:19:53.

talk about jam tomorrow in a new commercial relationship between the

:19:54.:19:57.

two countries. Sasauges, bicycle, architect, museums all harked about

:19:58.:20:12.

in order to encourage trade. Last year Britain sent ?9 billion of

:20:13.:20:17.

goods to China and the Chinese sent ?30 billion to this country. Britain

:20:18.:20:21.

wants China to realise its dream and I believe we can help each other

:20:22.:20:24.

succeed in the global race. Some in Europe and elsewhere see the world

:20:25.:20:29.

changing and want to shut China off behind a bamboo curtain of trade

:20:30.:20:34.

barriers. Britain wants to tear those trade barriers down. This trip

:20:35.:20:39.

has been a while in the planning, after Beijing declared itself hurt

:20:40.:20:43.

that David Cameron had met the Dalai Lama last year. This time any

:20:44.:20:51.

protests were soto V oce. The full range of challenges should be in the

:20:52.:20:56.

full range of discussion, including our differences. We should approach

:20:57.:20:59.

with mutual respect and understanding, as we did today. I

:21:00.:21:02.

welcome the agreement to hold the next human rights dialogue early

:21:03.:21:09.

next year. Increasing exports to China is an important part of the

:21:10.:21:14.

Treasury strategy to high to rebuild the UK economy. The trade-off is

:21:15.:21:19.

between moral self-image and self-interest. This promised new

:21:20.:21:24.

relationship with China is based on an urge to get a share of the

:21:25.:21:28.

action. Humam rights activists worry that greed or ambition is elbowing

:21:29.:21:34.

out humanitarian concerns. But how much is China really changing. Our

:21:35.:21:41.

world affairs correspondent has been pondering the subject in some of his

:21:42.:21:45.

favourite haunts in Beijing. Tiananmen Square, the centre piece

:21:46.:21:51.

of modern Beijing. Old stagers like me can never forget the

:21:52.:21:54.

demonstrations here which ended in the massacre of 1989. But like China

:21:55.:22:00.

itself, the square has changed a lot over the years, it is far more

:22:01.:22:12.

people friendly now than it used to be. Over there are the Great Hall,

:22:13.:22:18.

where David Cameron has been having talks with leaders, the visit has

:22:19.:22:24.

been a great success, and unexpected honours has been showered on him.

:22:25.:22:28.

Why? Because China doesn't trust America to be a reliable partner

:22:29.:22:39.

sheet more in -- is parter in -- partner any more. And the British

:22:40.:22:45.

are more than happy to oblige. On the one hand China is closing labour

:22:46.:22:49.

camps and relaxing the one-child rule, on the other it is silencing

:22:50.:22:53.

and looking up its critics with renewed energy. Why? What's going on

:22:54.:23:02.

here? I have really come to love this area. It is called District

:23:03.:23:10.

798. It used to be an entire suburb composed of weapons factories. Then

:23:11.:23:13.

the Government closed it down and handed it over to, of all things,

:23:14.:23:18.

artists, to use as galleries and workshops. For me it is a parable of

:23:19.:23:23.

the way China could become in the future. When you are here, the old

:23:24.:23:30.

Chinese Marxist, Leninist state just seems to evaporate. Being here

:23:31.:23:35.

reminds me forcibly of the artists I used to hang out with in the old

:23:36.:23:41.

Eastern Bloc countries in the 1980s. Czechoslovakia, Hungary, east German

:23:42.:23:46.

and the Soviet Union. For them, the old communist system started to

:23:47.:23:52.

vanish long before the Berlin wall came down. But is the same process

:23:53.:23:58.

happening here? I'm not really sure yet. This is Lydia Jaing, a woman

:23:59.:24:10.

with a remarkable background. In the 1980s she was a worker in an arments

:24:11.:24:14.

factory. Much like this one was before being turned into an art

:24:15.:24:20.

gallery. Nowadays she's a well known social commentator. I used to think

:24:21.:24:34.

a year or so ago that he was the man who tried to open up the system but

:24:35.:24:39.

he couldn't keep control over it, but he's much tougher than that,

:24:40.:24:44.

isn't he? He's much tougher, I don't think many people will see him as

:24:45.:24:48.

China's Gorbachev. He mentioned Russia, I think he's haunted by the

:24:49.:24:52.

collapse of the Soviet Union. He wants to make sure, going out of his

:24:53.:25:00.

way to make sure it doesn't happen to China. How will it happen? I

:25:01.:25:05.

think the authorities will have to let people, the way people, allow

:25:06.:25:11.

people to express their grievances, to express their views, to have a

:25:12.:25:17.

say in how they are governed. Allow them space to shape the future.

:25:18.:25:23.

Otherwise I don't think possibly we can last with this model. Whenever I

:25:24.:25:30.

come to Beijing I like to visit this traditional street, and sample the

:25:31.:25:41.

street food which is on sale. Locusts, actually rather nice! There

:25:42.:25:52.

you go! I recommend them. So, what's really going on in the China that

:25:53.:25:58.

David Cameron has come to visit. My guess, for what it's worth, is that

:25:59.:26:05.

the leader is an instinctive liberaliser, who understands that

:26:06.:26:08.

you can't really open up business and manufacturing here,

:26:09.:26:12.

satisfactorily without giving people much more personal freedom. But, the

:26:13.:26:18.

Chinese leadership as a whole is still obsessed with what happened

:26:19.:26:22.

back in 1989, both at Tiananmen Square, and with the fall of

:26:23.:26:28.

communism in Eastern Europe. Hence the juggling act. There is more

:26:29.:26:33.

personal freedom here, certainly. But people aren't allowed to go as

:26:34.:26:37.

far as many of them would like, can it work? Certainly, but only for a

:26:38.:26:42.

while. The time will come when the old rules will have to be relaxed,

:26:43.:26:46.

and that will be the point of maximum danger for the old Marxist,

:26:47.:26:56.

Leninist system. Just sending an e-mail there, you surely can't be

:26:57.:27:00.

surprised, because this phenomenon of being physically present and

:27:01.:27:05.

mentally absent of virtual conversations rather than actual

:27:06.:27:08.

ones is all around us. Couples who go out for dinner and spend the meal

:27:09.:27:14.

talking to others. Teenagers at home part there part Facebooking. It is

:27:15.:27:18.

not just the rudeness and superficiality, it is that

:27:19.:27:21.

technology has broken down the distinction between public and

:27:22.:27:25.

private. The personal aside that is retweeted across the land, or the

:27:26.:27:28.

personal photo that some how anyone can see. We report. For millennia

:27:29.:27:37.

people have struggled with the question, what does it mean to be

:27:38.:27:46.

human? For the last few years we have been struggling with a

:27:47.:27:49.

variation on that question, what does it mean to be human with all

:27:50.:27:53.

this technology! It is unhealthy, because we have let boundaries go.

:27:54.:27:58.

We are now creatures of this thing that we have created without much

:27:59.:28:03.

control over it. I really do think it is important that we look at the

:28:04.:28:07.

social effects of technology a lot more, not just the glitz, glamour

:28:08.:28:13.

and bling of a new thing. The scene on any street in the modern world,

:28:14.:28:16.

so familiar as to be mundane, and yet to anyone from two decades ago,

:28:17.:28:22.

this would all seem utterly bizarre. How bizarre, look at these famous

:28:23.:28:26.

paintings, reimagined with modern technology, by the Korean artist,

:28:27.:28:35.

Kim DongYU. We have wandered into this world without any idea of how

:28:36.:28:40.

and when it is appropriate to use the technology. The Americans have a

:28:41.:28:49.

phrase FOMO, "fear of missing out". It is this idea that what I'm doing

:28:50.:28:55.

now is not the best thing I could be doing, maybe someone has messaged or

:28:56.:28:59.

Facebooked me and I need to check it all the time. It is a kind of mild

:29:00.:29:04.

paranoia that leaves us dissatisfied and not present here in the now with

:29:05.:29:08.

somebody talking as we are right now. So what to do about all this?

:29:09.:29:13.

Well you could make a game out of it, phone stacking, if you are out

:29:14.:29:17.

for dinner with a group of friends, everyone stacks their phone face

:29:18.:29:24.

down on the table. Whoever touches their's first gets to pay for

:29:25.:29:27.

everybody. Most people don't realise our brains are wired to want that

:29:28.:29:30.

information, to gain more knowledge and to seek out what is going on in

:29:31.:29:33.

the world. We can't be blamed or feel guilty for wanting to pull our

:29:34.:29:37.

phones out every five or ten minutes. We need to become more

:29:38.:29:40.

aware and gain knowledge about why we are doing that. And in turn

:29:41.:29:44.

create better habits and social norms where we aren't expected to

:29:45.:29:49.

always be available. Various writers and bloggers are attempting to

:29:50.:29:55.

evolve a new tech the the question. Including the -- etiquette.

:29:56.:30:06.

Including the the sister of Mark Zuckerberg. Her blogs are turned

:30:07.:30:14.

into a book. It is about how to turn things all around us rather than

:30:15.:30:19.

getting stuck in a virtual world. Turn off all the beeps that keep us.

:30:20.:30:27.

It is a des to go, turn off cellphones, computers or cameras.

:30:28.:30:31.

Off the grid. You could try digital des to go, like this American

:30:32.:30:34.

retreat that demands phones and computers are handed over. Everyone

:30:35.:30:38.

could benefit from taking, whether a digital des to be retreat, or just a

:30:39.:30:48.

few -- des to go retreat d detox or digital retreat. Some call it a day

:30:49.:30:54.

of digital rest. And I think everyone can benefit from taking,

:30:55.:30:56.

whether it is a few minutes, few hours or days off line. Perhaps

:30:57.:31:00.

though technology will bring us its own solution. The inspiration behind

:31:01.:31:06.

the Google Glass device, currently in development is to get our heads

:31:07.:31:11.

up and hands free, not everyone, it is fair to say that strap ago

:31:12.:31:15.

computer to our head is the answer. One change that may help is the move

:31:16.:31:20.

away from text-based to voice-based computer interaction. In the

:31:21.:31:25.

meantime, are we in danger of becoming robot, the i-diots of this

:31:26.:31:33.

wonderful Spanish animation. Disconnected by the technology we're

:31:34.:31:37.

supposed to have to connect us, always on but never present. Randi

:31:38.:31:44.

Zuckerberg is here, because Facebook has been the subject of a feature

:31:45.:31:49.

film and much hyped public float and endless legal battles it seems. She

:31:50.:31:52.

was responsible for Facebook's public image for six years. She's

:31:53.:31:56.

the sister of the social media site's founder Mark. Now, you seem

:31:57.:32:02.

to be having a bit of a change of mind about whether this is a

:32:03.:32:05.

desirable state of affairs or not. We're all living with it any way? It

:32:06.:32:12.

is definitely a dotcom-plicated world. I think it was having a child

:32:13.:32:17.

of my own that made me revisit my look on technology and become much

:32:18.:32:21.

more aware of just how attached we are to our mobile devices. You have

:32:22.:32:25.

got a sentence in this book about how important it is to acquire a

:32:26.:32:30.

digital identity in the womb! Could you explain that? Well, gosh, our

:32:31.:32:35.

digital identity becomes now even before we're born. I know it sounds

:32:36.:32:42.

crazy but as parents that first time that you post that you are expecting

:32:43.:32:48.

on-line, that first oversharing son know gram photo -- sonogram photo,

:32:49.:32:55.

suddenly you have created a digital footprint for your child on-line. I

:32:56.:32:58.

talked to parents about the really big responsibility we have to our

:32:59.:33:02.

children that way. What is this responsibility. Well you have the

:33:03.:33:05.

responsibility as parents to make sure that if you are sharing

:33:06.:33:09.

information about your children on-line, that you are not doing

:33:10.:33:12.

anything that will damage them in the future. You also have the

:33:13.:33:17.

responsibility, a lot of parents now are turning to Google, to search

:33:18.:33:21.

engines, to make sure that they are carving out the best real estate

:33:22.:33:26.

on-line for their children, they are reserving e-mail address, they are

:33:27.:33:29.

making sure that their child doesn't share a name with someone with very

:33:30.:33:42.

unsavory search results. You are not serious? The first thing anyone will

:33:43.:33:45.

do when they meet your child is search for them on-line. I think it

:33:46.:33:49.

is important for parents to make sure they are putting a child's best

:33:50.:33:54.

foot forward if that is the first thing anyone will do. Do you think

:33:55.:33:57.

there is a distinction any more between private and public? I think

:33:58.:34:01.

it is getting very blurry. Now I think in our real lives we have

:34:02.:34:05.

private, we have public, but most of our lives we live in the personal

:34:06.:34:10.

area inbetween. I share things, I wouldn't really want on the cover of

:34:11.:34:13.

the newspaper, but it wouldn't crush me if it wound up there.

:34:14.:34:19.

Unfortunately on-line don't have that luxury. Everything on-line is

:34:20.:34:21.

very public or private and that's it. Best not to go on-line, wouldn't

:34:22.:34:28.

you say? Well, I would think that a few billion people might disagree

:34:29.:34:32.

with that statement. They choose to do it, they have chosen to succumb

:34:33.:34:39.

to a created need? I think there are amazing benefits to all of these

:34:40.:34:43.

on-line sites, obviously I'm a bit biased I worked for six years on the

:34:44.:34:47.

forefront of one, but I think when you look at a lot of the political

:34:48.:34:51.

events in the world, people now have a voice that used to be voiceless,

:34:52.:34:56.

you look at even the disabled community, people can now

:34:57.:35:01.

communicate in far and away different ways, children now there

:35:02.:35:04.

is so many more tools for education and creativity. Of course you can

:35:05.:35:07.

always look at the dark side of anything. But do you have any sense

:35:08.:35:13.

of a guilty conscience, because you marketed Facebook? No, definitely

:35:14.:35:17.

not. I definitely believe that the glass is very half full when it

:35:18.:35:22.

comes to using Facebook. But what I do think is that especially as a

:35:23.:35:27.

mom, it is easy when you are in Silicon Valley to have your head

:35:28.:35:31.

down and think about what you are innovating right now, it was not

:35:32.:35:35.

until I left and started speaking to other moms, other people around the

:35:36.:35:38.

world that I realised for every opportunity we have created with

:35:39.:35:42.

social media we have also created challenges in people's lives that

:35:43.:35:46.

definitely need to be addressed. Interesting you used the word

:35:47.:35:54.

"challenges" as opposed to problems? Problem infers that there is not an

:35:55.:35:58.

easy solution, I think they are challenges because it is a website.

:35:59.:36:01.

It is a phone, it is just a tool. The website isn't bad, the phone

:36:02.:36:05.

isn't bad it is how we use it. Overall people are niave though?

:36:06.:36:10.

People are, no, I don't think people are niave, in fact young people

:36:11.:36:14.

today when you talk to them they are much more savvy about anything

:36:15.:36:18.

on-line than you would even guess or imagine. They are very savvy about

:36:19.:36:23.

their privacy settings, they are savvy about what they share. I don't

:36:24.:36:26.

think people are niave at all, it is a human desire to connect. I think

:36:27.:36:30.

we have taken it a bit too far. Thank you very much. In case you

:36:31.:36:36.

missed it this weekend saw people from 30 countries gather in Croydon,

:36:37.:36:41.

of all place, to take part in the World Memory Championships, today

:36:42.:36:45.

the winner was crowned. Jonas Von Essen triumphed in a series of

:36:46.:36:50.

tasks, including memorising playing cards and historic dates. Tonight we

:36:51.:36:53.

thought we would give him another challenge. You have seven minutes to

:36:54.:36:59.

commit our end credits to memory, starting now. By the age of 77, most

:37:00.:37:04.

people would expect to be able to put their feet up, but the actor

:37:05.:37:10.

Robert Redford is still at it in JC Khanneder's new movie All Is Lost.

:37:11.:37:18.

He plays a man alone fighting the elements when his boat is struck by

:37:19.:37:23.

a cargo container. He's the ship's only speaking role and not that much

:37:24.:37:29.

at all. He met the film critics while he was here. This is the

:37:30.:37:39.

Virginia Jane, SOS call, over. You are sitting at home and the script

:37:40.:37:44.

comes through the door, it is 31 pages long, your character doesn't

:37:45.:37:47.

get a name and barely any dialogue, why do you take the part? I guess

:37:48.:37:50.

you could say that this was evidence of pure cinema. There are no

:37:51.:37:54.

barriers of dialogue, there are no barriers of too much information. It

:37:55.:38:00.

was pretty much existential in that you just had to be there and it

:38:01.:38:04.

would give the viewer a chance to come closer to you as a character.

:38:05.:38:09.

For all those reasons it could easily have gone so wrong, did you

:38:10.:38:13.

and the director ever look at each other and say what are we doing? I

:38:14.:38:20.

used to say that to him! Yeah, I think probably there is always that,

:38:21.:38:25.

there is always that shadow around the film, what are we doing here?

:38:26.:38:30.

This is the Virginia Jane, an SOS call, over. Did you find it a

:38:31.:38:40.

challenge acting without a costar to act opposite? Well I love co--star,

:38:41.:38:46.

I love the interaction between you and another person, I like the

:38:47.:38:49.

dynamic and exchange. But on the other hand I felt totally

:38:50.:38:55.

comfortable with this character. His co-star was the water and the boat.

:38:56.:39:00.

And I had to be comfortable with that and I was. Until it got really

:39:01.:39:08.

stormy. Is that what reminded you of Jeramiah Johnson, which you have

:39:09.:39:12.

compared it to, he's acting opposite the land, here it is the sea, there

:39:13.:39:15.

the American west? It did. But only after. I was too busy getting

:39:16.:39:23.

through it. I was too occupied with the character and what we were going

:39:24.:39:26.

through because it was so intense. But after the film was over and I

:39:27.:39:29.

could think back on it, I realised it had a common theme in the sense

:39:30.:39:34.

that Jeramiah Johnson, in 1970, that was a man going through incredible

:39:35.:39:39.

obstacles that seemed impossible to overcome, but he just kept going.

:39:40.:39:42.

And that was on land. This same thing happens here. And I realise

:39:43.:39:47.

that there was something thematic about that point when things seemed

:39:48.:39:52.

so impossible when all seems to be lost. You are 77 now and obviously

:39:53.:39:56.

in great shape, were you prepared for all that he put you through in

:39:57.:40:00.

the course of the films? I was offered doubles, when we talked

:40:01.:40:04.

originally I said it is pretty intense stuff here physically. When

:40:05.:40:14.

we get down there I will see I will do what I can and we will see where

:40:15.:40:18.

that goes. And one thing led to another, and as I got more into it I

:40:19.:40:21.

got more into it. Do you still find it uncomfortable

:40:22.:40:40.

seeing yourself on the screen when you watch yourself? Yeah. I can't

:40:41.:40:44.

explain it, I just never really liked it much. I have only seen this

:40:45.:40:48.

film once. I didn't see Dailies, I didn't go to the monitor like

:40:49.:40:55.

happens quite a bit now. I'm not a fan of the monitor either as a

:40:56.:41:01.

director or actor. It has become de rigueur for actors and directors to

:41:02.:41:07.

hover around the monitor. Not for me. When I'm in the role I'm in the

:41:08.:41:12.

role I don't want to be distracted by critically looking at myself.

:41:13.:41:16.

Aside from the fact I have never enjoyed seeing myself. To me it is a

:41:17.:41:20.

distraction. You came into the industry first written about as a

:41:21.:41:23.

sex symbol, that must have been a distracting thing, did you find it

:41:24.:41:27.

difficult to pivot out of that to the more politically engaged films

:41:28.:41:32.

you wanted to make? I did, I was surprised when it came and then I

:41:33.:41:35.

was flattered. I enjoyed it for a while. Then I realised that I

:41:36.:41:39.

couldn't slide out of it, that it was being attached to me in a way

:41:40.:41:43.

that began to feel uncomfortable, because I felt it became a very

:41:44.:41:49.

strikes in terms of the performances I would give it would be how I

:41:50.:41:56.

looked rather than the subtle things within the character. I realised it

:41:57.:42:00.

was a bit of a cage and it was really hard to get out of. You have

:42:01.:42:06.

been very passionately engaged with America throughout your career, one

:42:07.:42:11.

thinks of films from You will The President's Men through to Quiz

:42:12.:42:17.

Show, she's your most constant co-star, how has America changed in

:42:18.:42:22.

your lifetime? Nothing has changed from my interests. I felt early on

:42:23.:42:26.

when I had the chance to tell my story as an acting producer and then

:42:27.:42:30.

director, what fascinated me was my own country, but not the country

:42:31.:42:36.

that was propagandaised. Not the country that was overpromoted like

:42:37.:42:40.

it was at the end of the Second World War when I was a kid growing

:42:41.:42:44.

up. I remember hearing all the slogans about "doing your bit",

:42:45.:42:51.

happiness and doing your best", and "it doesn't matter how you play the

:42:52.:42:55.

game as long as you do your best". I realised that was a lie in my 20s,

:42:56.:43:01.

there was a grey zone inbetween. I got interested in that, that was

:43:02.:43:06.

were things were more complex. I didn't see it as black and white,

:43:07.:43:09.

because of my own live ex-peerences I saw a different America. Still an

:43:10.:43:13.

America I loved. There were stories I wanted to tell about the grey part

:43:14.:43:17.

where things were more complex and not so easily determined. And then

:43:18.:43:21.

so that led me to be more interested in making a film where you end it by

:43:22.:43:26.

asking a question. And let the audience play a role in

:43:27.:43:30.

interpretation. It is one of many films this fall with the theme of

:43:31.:43:34.

survival at the centre. I wondered if this speaks to anything in

:43:35.:43:38.

America at the moment, these films that focus on a sort of life or

:43:39.:43:42.

death existential struggle and all is lost as one of those. Does that

:43:43.:43:48.

connect with anything going on? Since we made this film I didn't

:43:49.:43:52.

think you could draw a parallel with where the country is, and now you

:43:53.:43:58.

can. You can. Is all lost? We certainly need to be and seem to be

:43:59.:44:01.

teetering on the edge. It is embarrassing for me as a person who

:44:02.:44:05.

loves my country to see the leaders of my country behaving so

:44:06.:44:12.

ridiculously. So stupidly. In such a narrow-minded way. And seeing how we

:44:13.:44:17.

must be perceived by other countries like yours. What must you think of

:44:18.:44:23.

us? So we had pretty poor representation right now with the

:44:24.:44:26.

breakdown. Particularly you think the motivation on the one side is

:44:27.:44:30.

just one thing, and that is to go against the President. What a rotten

:44:31.:44:39.

situation. Robert Redford talking to us. Alongside me is the world memory

:44:40.:44:44.

champion, Jonas Von Essen, still putting the final names into his

:44:45.:44:49.

head. He's going to recite them all from memory in a moment or two. In

:44:50.:44:52.

the meantime the front I will take that now, right Jonas,

:44:53.:45:24.

nice trophy. I think you can play us out by telling us what the credits

:45:25.:45:34.

were tonight. Yes, the presenter is of course Jeremy emPaxman. The

:45:35.:45:46.

production team consists of it's, em, in order it is... I will give

:45:47.:46:01.

awe clue clue, the first one is James Fray. Gemma Parks, and then

:46:02.:46:09.

Jake Morris, and then it is let's see now. Max? It is Max... Davidson.

:46:10.:46:22.

And then Hannah Razak, and then we have also Sam Ha CLSHGS k. Correct,

:46:23.:46:26.

do you remember any more after that? I think so. We will be here all

:46:27.:46:39.

night. We also have Lorraine Iganis. And Toby Keely. Shall we cut to the

:46:40.:46:45.

chase the editor, the editor at the end? The editor that is of course as

:46:46.:46:54.

usual Ian Katz.

:46:55.:46:56.

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