05/12/2013 Newsnight


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Nelson Mandela, the father of the South African nation has died. An


hour ago Jacob Zuma, the President of South Africa announced his death.


Our beloved Nelson Mandela, the founding President of our democratic


nation has departed. He passed on peacefully. Nelson Mandela was born


in 1918, almost a century ago. In 1963 he was sentenced for life


imprisonment for political offence, and spent 18 of his 27 years in


prison on Robben Island. There are many people who feel it is useless


and futile for us to continue to talk peace and nonviolence, against


a Government's whose reply is only savage attacks. On an unarmed and


defenceless people. He was released in 1990 and three years laterhand


and President De Klerk were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Manned voted


for the first time in his life and voted the first President of a


democratic South Africa. He was surely the most famous man in the


world, certainly the most respected, he was called the world's elder


statesman. Nelson Mandela, Madiba, his Khan name, has died at the age


of 95, surrounded by his family. Including his former wife and


present wife, and the President, Jacob Zuma, made the announcement


under an hour ago. Fellow South African under an hour ago. Fellow


South Africans our beloved Nelson Mandela, father of our democratic


nation has departed. He passed on peacefully in the company of his


family surround 20. 50, on the 5th of December. He is now resting, he


is now at peace. Our nation has lost its greatest son, our people have


lost a father. Although we knew that this day would come nothing can


diminish our sense of a profound and enduring loss. His tireless struggle


for freedom and him, the respect of the world. Jacob Zuma, we speak to


Johannesburg live now. It must be a profound atmosphere of sadness in


the country? That's right, that statement which you heard which came


just about an hour ago was preceded by a few hours of quite frenetic


activity around Nelson Mandela's home in Johannesburg. We saw cars


arriving, family members, some Government vehicles and about an


hour before the statement police vans, trying to set up a cordon to


keep whatever crowds might gather out. That certainly told people here


that something was up. Even though, of course, this announcement has


been expected for a very, very long time now, but then, of course, when


the announcement came I think none the less for South Africans it will


still be a shock. I think the key words there from Jacob Zuma that you


heard speaking in Pretoria Union Buildings were profound and enduring


sense of loss. He said that the nation had lost its greatest son and


that our people have lost a father, people here call Mr Mandela,


"Madiba" which is his clan name, or "tata" which is father. He was ill


for a very long time and he was 95, he was taken to hospital in June,


which was the third time this year. He spent three months At his trial,


which was the third time this year. Nelson Mandela closed his statement


from Nelson Mandela closed his statement


We have lost one of the only ideal he hoped


We have lost one of the only profoundly good human beings that


any of us will share time with. He not only belongs to us, he belongs


to the ages. Through his fierce dignity and unbending will to


sacrifice his own freedom for the freedom of others, Madiba transform


South Africa and moved all of us. His journey from a prisoner to a


President embodied the promise that human beings in countries can change


for the better. His commitment to transfer power and reconciled with


those who jailed him set an example that all humanity should aspire to.


President Obama. And we will bring you reaction from other worldly


goods as we get it. Let's go back to Gabriel. Although in 1999 he stood


down and handed over to Thabo Mbeki comity was very active in society,


huge force for reconciliation, very much a wise man. And indeed he took


us down on issues like and HIV against Sabo Mbeki. He did. He


remained a huge moral authority even after he left politics. Even after


he almost disappeared from public life altogether. And that is why I


think in part you will see such a huge reaction to his death tonight


and in the coming days. Even though he had not been seen in public for a


very long time, its very existence, the very knowledge of South Africans


that Madiba, as they called him, was still alive exercised power over


them, the vision of a country that could be better than it is. A


country that achieved so much against such terrible odds. Under


Nelson Mandela's leadership, the very fact of his continued existence


I think gay people hope they could still move forward, and further. --


gave people hope. We joined now by a South African journalist who


reported the apartheid struggle and became close to Nelson Mandela. It


is a sad time but thank you for speaking to us tonight. You knew


Nelson Mandela as a young man and in fact you reported on his decision to


take up the armed struggle. I knew him first 35 years ago. I'll began


to see him as a journalist. There was debate about the papers that


black people carried. People had been arrested and there was a trial


in the basement of the courts. The magistrate closed the court. I said


you better not do this. And Nelson never forgot this, in the latest


years when I was in Robben Island and he -- he was in Robben Island


and I would be where I am, he would write to me and addressed to me by


name, he referred to this episode and the letter would be passed


person to person. Do you think when he organised that national workers'


strike, the three-day strike, and then carried on in that vein that he


knew it was very possible he would be in prison for a very long time?


Oh yeah, that was going back to those days, his commitment to


freedom, his self-sacrifice, this was a man, we're talking about the


end of the 1950s, 1960, although he was a leader in the of a anal


Congress, he had a bit of an image as play boy. He was very handsome,


well dressed, he was tall strapping man, he liked the laties and until


he settled down. He was a lawyer, only a handful in Johannesburg at


the time, when I saw him in prison I was the first non-family person to


be allowed to see him as a friend not as a journalist in the early


1980s. I had to give the Government an undertaking not to write it. It


was pretty hard for me as I was deputy editor of the Mail. The the


difference between what he was in 1960, and 1961 and what he was 20


years ago, he was a different person. He matured, he had grown. I


had heard already through the grapevine that he had become the


natural leader on Robben Island, it wasn't just the of a


It wasn't just the African National Congress testifies all people. On


the telephone is the Archbishop of Canterbury. Good evening. Good


evening. Perhaps when people think of Nelson Mandela they think of his


enormous capacity for forgiveness? Yes, it is the most striking and


extraordinary thing, and the footage this evening reminds us of that


incredible gift of generosity and fness of spirit that is so unusual


and unique. Do you think it was an extraordinary spirit of character


that took him through 27 years, it is hard to imagine 27 years, 18 of


them on Robben Island, never faltering once? I think it is... I


think one is lost for words thinking of what the cost of that must have


been personally. And the inner struggle that there must have been


and where it ended with this great opening to accept all South Africans


and set an example of forgiveness which challenges everyone around the


world. There was a line from President Obama there, he was


quoting t he said "I have fought against white domination, I have


fought against black domination". He wanted such an inclusive South


Africa, didn't he? Yes, and the pattern that South Africa has


established and I know very well the present head of the Anglican Church


in South Africa and you see it in him, is of enormous inclusion. A


willingness to accept, if you like, a prejudice towards welcome and


hospitality, rather than shutting out and empty. D -- enmity. Striking


in his latter years that everyone in the world wanted to be photographed


with Nelson Mandela? Yes, it did seem to be the great fashion. But it


is more, it is the sense of the magic rubbing off, it is the inner


character that needs to rub off not the outer sign. So you think, so do


you think it is possible to be innately good, particularly good,


Benjamin was talking earlier about him being a handsome young man and


he loved going out, that it is possible to have an innate sense of


goodness? I think it is possible to deciding to the right way. Clearly


that's what happened with him. It must have been a huge inner struggle


to have got there. But he did so. Innate goodness, I don't know about


innate goodness, I think there is innate decision, clear inward


decisions that certain things are right and certain things are wrong.


Latterly, of course, although he had withdrawn to a certain extent to


public life, his influence in South Africa was still as strong?


Everything, every South African that I have come across in recent years


saw him as the beacon by which one set one's course in life, if you


wanted to do the right thing. Yes, he is one of the great lights of the


world and it has gone out this evening. We can see now Imams of


people in South Africa sitting I think perhaps near Nelson Mandela's


house and the families inside in terms of the people his current wife


and his former wife and surviving children. Nelson Mandela is to be


buried in the little village in the Eastern Cape which he chose as his


final resting place, it is a region that has a special importance in


Mandela's remarkable history. He was born near here, it was here he


learned many of the lessons and skills that would be crucial to him


as a politician. In the first part of a special Newsnight obituary, we


report on his early life and struggle against apartheid. Nelson


Mandela was born on July 18th 1918, out on the hills in a hut that used


to stall here as part of a corral in the village. It is a remote part of


South Africa that he always regarded as his true home. Here, even as a


boy, he showed a singleminded determination and would fight for


what he believed to be right. His father was a local chief and


grandson of the king of the Tembu people, who controlled the area down


to the Bashi River. It is a part of the world where people uphold the


old tradition, these women celebrate the circumcision, these men who have


par taken in the ritual are held in he is collision, as Mandela was when


he took part in this ritual. Outside there is a demonstration of stick


fighting, in which opponents spar and parry with clubs made from hard


thorn wood. A rural sport at which the young Mandela also excelled. His


childhood friend, Maxim Bombatu remembers him as a man who didn't


like to lose. Mandela was brought up here in the


little village of Kunu, where he would herd cattle and sheep. After


his father died he moved to the court of the acting Tembu king, the


regent. A leader, the regent told him, is like a shepherd, he stays


behind the flock, letting the most nimble go on ahead, whereupon the


others follow, not realised all the along they are being dictated to


from behind. It was a lesson he would never forget. In 1941 at the


age of 23, Nelson Mandela moved to Johannesburg to escape from a


marriage arranged by the regent. Here he studied law, became involved


in politics and threw himself into city living. There was no equality


between black and white, but there was a vibrant black cultural and


music scene. And Mandela developed into a confident man about town and


a sharp dresser. The stick fighter became a boxer, learning when to


dodge and when to attack. Skills that would prove crucial for a


political leader. He cared enormously about his appearance,


ands you know he was also a fairly good boxer. So he looked after his


body and the ladies had an eye for hem and he had for them too. In 1944


he married a nurse, Evelyn Masi, there would be little time for


family life. For the same year he joined the Executive Committee of


the new youth league of the ANC, pledged to fight for black rights.


Also on the executive Oliver Tambo, a friend from school days, with whom


Mandela would start a ground-breaking African law firm.


Mandela and Tambu operated from this building, Chancellor House in town


Johannesburg, it was the centre of resistance. They became attorneys


for a host of black clients. Practically everybody wanted to be


defended by him. Because he had so much work and he briefed counsel,


young counsel like me to go and, if I turned up and said I was


instructed by Mr Mandela the clients were ed that he was not there to do


the case himself. He was always a very stylish figure in court? Oh


yeah, absolutely, no doubt about it, he was, he was, he was the centre of


the stage. But life for black South African was getting worse, as the


Africana National Party enforced an ever-more stringent policy of


apartheid, separateness. Today the memory of apartheid is kept alive in


a Johannesburg museum. Everyone was classified by race, with different


races forced to live in different areas. Black South Africans had to


carry pass-books or face arrest. ANC leaders like Mandela who called for


democratic, multiracial South Africa, were harassed, banned from


attending meetings and arrested. He was now on the ANC national


executive, by 1958 he had divorced Evelyn and remarried to Winnie, with


even less time for his family. The recollections of my dad when I was


young of a father who was there but never there. You know he was never


around the home. So how do you balance the politics and the family


life? Did he balance them, I don't know that, I don't know that he was


able to maintain that kind of balance. By 1960 the situation had


become even more critical. An anti-pass law in sharpsville became


a massacre when the police shot many people dead. Manied had -- manied


went underground to think. Many people think it is futile for us to


continue to talk peaceful resistance, against a Government


whose only reply is savage attacks against an unarmed and defenceless


people. An ANC sabotage campaign began with Mandela in charge. As


leader of the underground army, Spear of the Nation, he became the


most wanted man in South Africa. He secretly left for Britain before his


arrest in 1962. He was earlier acquitted for treats son, in


Pretoria he and other senior ANC leaders faced charges that they


plotted and engineered the commission of acts of violence and


destruction throughout the country. Defiant as ever he appeared in court


in tribal dress. He expected to be hanged, as were so many of those who


continued the struggle and from the dock he delivered one of the most


powerful speeches of his life. Mandela was found guilty, but his


life was spared. He and seven other colleagues were sentenced to life


imprisonment and sent to the bleak jail on Robben Island off the coast


of Cape Town. Mandela would remain here for 18 years, held in this cell


in the isolation block, at first with only a straw mat to sleep on.


From the start he acted like a leader, not a prisoner. He put his


hands through the bars and he shook my hand and said he was very pleased


to meet you, and I said I'm pleased to meet you, I said tell me about


the conditions here. The head warder was with us and yet Mandela had no


hesitation in telling me exactly what they were complaining of. He


was brought by no less than eight warders. And said that, George you


know this place has really made me forget my good manners, I must


introduce you to my guard of honour. He proceeded to introduce me to each


one of them by first name and surname. And you know prisoners


generally speak this and don't set the pace at which the group walks,


it is the warders. But here it was quite clear that the pace was almost


a regular gall one, and it was being set by Nelson Mandela. How did the


guards react to that? They were shocked. In January 1965 Nelson


Mandela and the other political prisoners were first brought here


and forced to hack away at the rocks of the Robben Island lime quarry.


Forced labour that would continue for the next 13 years. For the first


three years Mandela was not even allowed to wear dark glass, despite


the blinding glare from the rocks. His eyesight never fully recovered.


Mandela became the prisoners' leader and spokesman. Together they turned


this prison island into a political workshop. He was, at least being


held alongside old friends and ANC colleagues, like Walter Sasulu,


together they discussed strategy for the outside world. Visits from his


wife Winnie were a lifeline for man who put his struggle above his own


life. Even his fellow prisoners found him inscrutable. He doesn't


easily show emotion. When his mother died when we were in jail, And his


son was killed while we were in there in an accident, he never


showed emotion. His closest friend Walter was there and he could see


this man has taken it badly and went to console him. But as far as the


rest of us were concerned, he never, ever allowed his personal concerns


to override what he considered to be his duty towards us, the fellow


prisoners. Eventually change would come. In 1982 Mandela was


transferred to the prison on the mainland. He was offered his freedom


provided he gave up violence unconditionally. He refused. Instead


he started solo negotiations with the apartheid Government, deciding


there are times when a leader must move ahead of the flock. Six years


later he was moved again, now to a house of his own, though still


within a prison complex. He had garden, a pool and even a cook to


make him fish cakes for breakfast. Here for 14 months he conducted


crucial negotiations with the Governments of first PW both that


and FW de Klerk, to the concern of some colleagues. The rumours spread


in the country and reached our people outside, and the rumour is


Mandela is selling out. He's talking to the chaps for his own benefit,


he's selling out the struggle. But Mandela was aware that the apartheid


Government was under increasing pressure. free There was an upsurge


in the ANC's own armed struggle while pressure from outside included


sanctions by a mass campaign to free prisoners. There was a mass pop


concert against apartheid, the aim to ensure his global image was now


that of a global leader now in prison. The message reached a quite


extraordinary television audience, estimated at 500 million people in


67 countries, far more than Live Aid, and reinforced by songs


including an international hit anthem.


# Free Nelson Mandela # Free Nelson Mandela ??FORCEDWHI


Music can put across the emotional side of the message, you know.


Politicians can talk forever and the sadness of the whole situation,


that's what I tried to put into the song. Less than two years larks on


February 11th 1990, Nelson Mandela, now the world's best known political


prisoner was freed on his own terms. He walked out of the prison, hand in


hand with his wife Winnie in one of the great theatrical, emotional


moments of contemporary history. The Prime Minister, David Cameron,


has just spoken in Downing Street. Tonight, one of the brightest lights


of our world has gone out. Nelson Mandela was not just a hero of our


time, but a hero of all time. The first President of a free South


Africa, a man who suffered so much for freedom and justice, and a man


who threw his dignity -- through his dignity and triumph inspired


millions. Joining from down the line in Birmingham and England the


Reverend Jesse Jackson, and the South Africa editor of the Economist


and now the director of the Royal African Society. First of all, Mr


Jackson, he had been ill for a very long time, but the passing of Nelson


Mandela still comes as a shock? It is still traumatising, his release


took us to unbelievable heights of joy and the release of his spirit


takes to deep depths of pain and sorrow as we think about him being a


suffering servant who used the power of his presence and persona to bring


down the very violent walls of apartheid. The most critical moment


he chose reconciliation over retribution. That may be the pivitol


point. He could have with one wave of his finger sent South Africa into


a bitter, bloody devisive fight. He chose to get ahead rather than to


get even. Do you remember as a young man, was he an inspiring figure to


you? He was that. Because in the, not the king and Nelson Mandela, in


1963, Dr King references his speech and realised how difficult that


battle would be. We kept on pulling and people like Randall Robinson and


Mary Berry and others, we were arrested every day for a year in


front of the South African embassy, with heightened American and western


consciousness to a new level. And finally the US Government chose to


engage in sanctions against South Africa. We could not get Britain and


Mrs Thatcher to take that position, in the end it was clear that the


side of history was tilting towards Mr Mandela and he would be released


and let out of jail. When he was let out of jail he had the good judgment


to engage in a new process politically rather than an old


process militarily that would have been so bloody. Going back, because


you followed Nelson Mandela and you followed that struggle, and Walter


Sazulu was mentioned earlier, that group around Nelson Mandela was so


important to him? With Walter and Ahmed and Kathrada, this small group


that had all gone in at the same time and thought they would never


come out. They realised, one of the things they realised was they had


time. There Mandela really changes when he's in jail with these other


people. But although they were still a very strong group, he then went


off on his own and began to talk to the Government. That's the


extraordinary thing, because that was the thing that would never, they


would never agree to. And he did it without their permission. Your own


experience of Nelson Mandela, Mr Jackson, when did you meet him? In


190, I was one of the -- I was one of the first people to meet him out


of prison. I remember him coming to New York on his first tour and he


was in an interview and they said you are visiting nation that is are


anathema to America, he said you can't choose my friends they helped


me get free. He never stopped reaching out to the third world


outcast nations to bring them to untent. And many of the politicians


today still have those same nations as outcast, he never gave up on


trying to create one big world. You heard one of his older daughters


saying his old life was a struggle and that he didn't have, obviously


he was away for so long, he didn't have much of a family life. But when


he came out there was a rejuvenation in that, and the wonderful marriage


he had to his wife? 27 years of that kind of family separation, weighed


heavily. I shall never forget one of my last conversations with him a


couple of years ago, when they arrested him at the farm, they were


planning that week to bomb, they had been bombing installations, they


were going to bomb a hospital and a school perhaps the next week, they


thought all efforts were futile. He said he actually was glad that they


caught him and jailed him rather than allow him to in fact kill


innocent people. He did not want the bloodshed on his hands. He chose in


the end, he looked inside and had suffered for 27 years years and


killed innocent people. After the office as President, he was a huge


force for reconciliation for South Africa, and also a firm voice when


he didn't like the things happening in South Africa? He made it very


clear not just for South Africa but for all of Africa about DMOKising


those developments democratising Governments. He could have been the


President until tonight, after two terms he left and engaged in a


political process, and succeeded Mbeki and Zuma, and also that is an


example of having an ordinary organised effort of transition. I


cannot help that had been a divided country based on bloodshed, it would


have been a weak country, the strongest country in Africa and


South Africa in no small measure it is stronger because of his legacy.


You also saw him use his lawyerly skills when it came to the


elections? I saw him at a Qazulu at the start of the election. The chief


said he would not take part which meant the whole nation would not


vote. He went into the heartland and if he was going to get assassinated


it would happen there. He made the extraordinary speech saying the king


of the Zulus was his father. Because he was a chief, but he also was his


son because he was adviser to his father, so he played this game and


he said, he was basically saying come in and vote on this election.


And I remember this because he came up, it was in a soccer field and


there was a sort of wooden podium and by chance, I got caught at the


top of the steps and Mandela came up and I was standing there at the top


of the steps and he came up and I was obviously in the wrong place at


the wrong time he put out his hand and said good afternoon, my name is


Nelson Mandela, about to make the most dangerous speech of that whole


election campaign. Mr Jackson? We must not forget that the men of the


cape of South Africa part of the broader coalition did not vote for


him in that first election. They feared they could not reconcile with


blacks in Soweto, and yet he was able to reconcile those forces to


ensure them that it would be a commitment not to tribalism but


mutual security and wholesome democracy. Just finally, one


imagines that his funeral and we were saying this a little while ago,


his funeral will be one of the very big events of this period of the


21st century. Well the lease of his body was the big -- the release of


his body was the one of the biggest events the world has ever known and


the release of his spirit may be the same. This was truly a force for


good and the world has embraced him now even as it did in life. Thank


you very much indeed. 27 years in jail would destroy many men but for


Mandela, as we have been hearing, the years of suffering pray


preparation, for once he left prison a free man at last he would be asked


to play a crucial role in surely the most dangerous and critical period


of his country's history. Once Nelson Mandela was free,


celebrations rapidly gave way to hard politics. Those who expected


him to be bitter were quickly disabused. He managed to disarm his


old enemies, the Africanas of the National Party, with his rare blend


of toughest and understanding. I will never forget the first meeting


with the ANC, and he was given the first opportunity to speak by Mr De


Klerk. He obviously made a very, very study of the Africans history,


our history, I'm an Africana, he knew it better than most of us, he


came forward with his thesis, saying that what he could not understand


was that here was a people who suffered at the hands of the


British, and what he could not understand is why we could not see


the same misery and order of things amongst the blacks. But when


negotiation began in ernest, and De Klerk attacked Mandela for not


disbanding his guerrilla fighters, he furiously hit back. What


political organisation could hand over its weapons to the same men --


man regarded as killing innocent people. He had proved to black South


Africans that he had not sold out. That one speech wiped the record


clear. In the country people were driving around, there were people


stopping and flashing their lights. In Soweto they were in the streets


shouting and hailing what had happened. That was the turning point


for the black institutes. These were dangerous days for South Africa,


NENTs of majority -- opponents of majority rule or ANC rule


threatening to make the country unglovable. There were violent


clashes between ANC supporters and the Zulu chief Freedom Party. And


even fears of Civil War when white extremists threatened to fight for


their own state. Mandela's greatest challenge as a peace maker came in


April 1983. Chris Harney, communist leader, and arguably the country's


second-most popular black politician was murdered by a white extremist.


Black South Africa erupted in fury. It seemed the country to be torn


apart by race riots, but Mandela diffused the situation by explaining


how the assassin had been caught, thanks to the actions of a white


woman, an Africana. We have never been closer to catastrophe, and the


bloodbath that people had been predicting was going to be our lot,


that we were going to have been overwhelmed, we would have been


overwhelmed. It was Mandela personally who averted that


catastrophe? His contribution was critical. Nelson Mandela prevailed,


on April 27th 1994, South African held its first truly democratic


election In May he was sworn in as the country's first black President.


I, Nelson Mandela do here by pledge to be faithful to the Republic of


South Africa. His new Government of National Unity had a former white


South African politician. We made a terrible mistake, I blame myself and


our colleagues, and I blame our security personnel. We had such a


phobia or mania about communism. And a threat of communism. It was real


at the time, it was real at the time, even the Americans thought the


same. That some how we would just be blind. As President, Mandela's


public image was that of a cheerleader for the new rainbow


nation. He amazed and delighted Afrikaneres by wearing a new


springbok rugby shirt. Businessmen too fell under his spell as he


persuaded them he was certainly no communist and they should invest in


the new South Africa. And Cape Town tourists travelled to Robben Island


through the Nelson Mandela Gateway, one of thousands of buildings and


roads named after him in South Africa and across the world. At the


bookshop one of his former prison guards sold Mandela momentos. He was


that rarity of statesman who seemed to connect with everyone, from


politicians to models. But his daughter saw a different side. For


the 27 years for him to survive he had to actually blanche his feelings


and emotion and become very intellectual and rational person. So


he doesn't, and I say this, he doesn't easily connect you know. He


will say to me, he goes out there and has this connection with the


people and he holds the babies. That is one person, but when he comes to


very close and very intimate there is always the distance. There is


always the distance. For Nelson Mandela public triumph was matched


by private tragedy. His second wife Winnie had campaigned tirelessly for


his release and harassed by the authorities. She became increasingly


militant and was seen first as beyond ANC control and then as a


liability after being convicted of kidnapping, the marriage collapsed.


He really loved her. You know, he was almost like have you seen a


puppy when it follows with its eyes the master or mistress it loves. He


was something like that. I mean you saw the adoration. It is one of the


most traumatic things ever to have happened to him. On his 80th


birthday Nelson Mandela married for the third time, to the widow of the


former President of Mozambique. Leadership is a lonely journey, very


rarely do we have people who are really true loyal people around you,


people tell you things you want to hear most of the time. I think that


he needed a companion. I think he found one in Grace, and she has been


really very instrumental in, and I give him a lot of credit for


bringing this divided family together. Mandela stepped down as


President in 1999 to make way for Thabo Mbeki, he remained an astute


politician. Charming a British television audience with his dancing


in 2001. He also attended a concert in his honour in London's Trafalgar


Square. He was accompanied by Tony Blair, whom he would later furiously


criticise over the Iraq War. He became involved in education


projects, conflict mediation and a campaign to fight HIV AIDS. It is


the chosen final resting place for an extraordinary politician who was


admired. Against all odds it is a man who tried to make life better


for you and me and for humanity. He will live not only in South Africa,


and Africa, but the world at large, and one can say how and when can we


find the man like him. A man who held a nation together and made it


proud. Made them believe, hey, it is possible for enemies to become


friends. Nelson Mandela will be remembered as one of the great


fighters idealists and statesmen of Africa and of the world. We can go


now to pictures from where Nelson Mandela used to live, people dancing


and standing near his house, and we also know, of course, that there are


a number of people gathered at his home in Johannesburg where the


surviving children and indeed his wife and former wife are earlier


this evening and I believe still to be there. Those are the pictures


from Houghton in South Africa, we can go and speak to the Vice


Chancellor of the Rand University. Good evening. Tell me, what


difference do you think there will be in South Africa now that Nelson


Mandela is not there in a way as a guiding force? I think it is worth


bearing in mind that Nelson Mandela, this is a very poignant and sad


moment, but I also think that Nelson Mandela's passing is the passing of


the last of a generation of ANC leaders unsullied by the trappings


of power. He was, if you like, a unifying figure, and in the days


that move on I suspect that for the short-term he will unify South


Africa like no-one else has. If you think of the World Cup, think about


it a thousand-times more where South Africans of all types, classes and


races will unite in his memory. In the long-term, I think, he is no


longer the asset that the ANC would have had. He was a unifying figure.


, he could rally support for the ANC like no-one could, that is no longer


going to be available to the ANC. Do you think that actually will have a


detrimental impact on the country? I think in the long-term it will, in


the short-term it will galvanise support for the ANC, in the


long-term I think it is worth bearing in mind that he will no


longer be available as an asset for the ANC. For those in worried about


South Africa fracturing, that is far from happening. South Africa for all


of its weaknesses and changes around inequality and poverty it is a very


stable, politically stable society. It does have fissures and fractures,


it is worth bearing in mind that Nelson Mandela established a very,


very sound foundation, a foundation that is institutionally structured.


They have a judicial system, parliament and courts. While there


are challenges like many other places, it will continue as a stable


society. He hasn't been politically active for at least four or five


years. He was, as you said, a guiding hand, probably his memory


will continue to do that. He will be what Lincoln was to the United


States, what many other, what Gandhi is to India, Nelson Mandela will be


that and more to South Africa. As an educationalist, one of the things he


was so keen to do was transform education in South Africa, just


explain to us how that happened. How different it looks now in terms of


education? He was probably the most prominent iluminist. President, he


spent a number of years there, a number of his fellow comrates and


colleagues are -- comrades and colleagues were there. Else always


committed to this. We have done fairly well with the access to


schools. We have 96-94% access to school. It is the quality of


schooling when they get there is not that great. We lose 50% of the


people in the next ten years, and only 250,000 people will come out of


1. 2 million people who enter the system in grade 1. That is an


enormous wastage of human talent. At the high education level South


Africa the numbers have completely doubled. Its higher education system


is completely deracialised. It is a mixed record, there is a partial


success but there are significant weaknesses that needs to be


transcended. Thank you very much for joining u with the He willeders are


an -- Elder are a group of officials to work on human rights. It is


chaired by Kofi Annan And many others are part of it. Sir Richard


Branson is part of it. How did Nelson Mandela play his part in your


group? He was critical, he and his wife were the founding elders, he


felt he wanted his legacy to live on through 12 wonderful men and women


who have high moral authority and who could speak out on issues in the


world, and also get out in the world and try to resolve conflicts. In the


early days he was very involved but not so much in the later days. His


wonderful wife, the other founding member, will now get very much


involved more with the elders and make sure it will carry on in his


name. Enyou encountered him and had conversations with him, I imagine he


actually had quite a wicked sense of humour? A wonderful sense of humour,


and you know he was always dancing, he would sing, he would pull in the


cleaning lady and you know. And that was despite the fact that his knees


were wrecked from 27 years of breaking stones in a jail. So you


know, so, yeah, a wonderful sense of humour. But also when he was


actually President he would do some extraordinary things. I once got a


call when I was in the bath in England and was told that Mandela


was on the phone. He said that a chain of health clubs had gone


bankrupt, and would I get on the next plane to come and rescue the


5,000 employees. Did you? I did, and we have now got the biggest health


club chain in South Africa and employing 20,000 people, Virgin


Active in South Africa. So all the time he was trying to see how he


could help others in some way or another. That must have been a


wonderful knack, because presumably nobody could refuse him anything?


Yes, I mean having lunch with him once and I thought I had got away


with it, because any lunch you had with Nelson Mandela was expensive,


because he was always having a charity there to try to raise money


for. And I got right through to the last course and then he turned to me


and said, last week I had lunch with Bill Gates he gave me $50 million,


and I knew I was in trouble. Thank you very much, delighted now to be


joined by the MP David Lamie and the chaplain to the House of Commons and


the first black woman to hold the post. First of all both of you


growing up knowing about Nelson Mandela, how important was it to


black people to have somebody like Mandela, David? In the context of


this country black people are arriving from the Caribbean, Africa,


south Asia, they have been emancipated if you like. Escaped


their colonial master, but there are issues in the inner city in Britain,


certainly through the 70s and 80s, we are getting riots and a lot of


depression in black communities, so the fact of Mandela being in prison,


and of course we can't see him, you don't see him for 27 years an


intense emotion in the black community. And when he comes out in


1990 for so many of us, I grew up without a father and I remember his


poster on my bedroom wall. Him and Bill Cosby, my proxy father figure!


Just the tears and the emotion that something different might be


possible. Relative to your life in a very isolated community for me in


Tottenham. Relative to your parents' lives and what they have seen in


relation to Guyana or Nigeria, but this moment when the world finally


turns its back on this terrible apartheid system that of course


Martin Luthur king had gotten rid in in America. What did you think? The


first thing I want to say is the world has lost a true son in Nelson


Mandela's passing. Growing up in Jamaica and in the education system


there we are taught about our national heros. In a sense they have


done marvellous things but they were in books. They weren't sort of real,


they were real but not real. Nelson Mandela was real and so there was a


sense of hope that here was someone who today, not hundreds of years or


so many years back and on a poster, but here was someone who was real,


who was fighting the dehumanisation of a people and not just any people


but a people who looked like me. That was amazing. And the fact that


he was just such a huge inspiration, a huge incompetence pier racial to


us growing up. And even now on his release from prison, that day when


he was released I was rotted in that -- rooted in that lounge, nothing


was going to move me from there. I don't know all the words but I sang


the South African anthem. I cried, I prayed, I sang. I danced, it was


real. What about him as a model though. We talked. Much earlier


about the enormous capacity for forgiveness? He obviously stands


with Gandhi, Martin Luthur king, before them Abraham Lincoln, the


difference is they were killed. He lives, he is that great hope that


lives, and he governed his country and does it with peace and


reconciliation. He demonstrates you can get justice but justice through


peace. He stands then as the biggest figure of the 21st century. If you


like Adolf Hitler was the worst figure of the 21st century, Mandela


is the absolute contrast. This is a huge moment, a huge moment at the


turn of the 21st century. His passing will not just be felt in


South Africa, I'm getting emotional thinking about it too. It will be


felt here greatly. I just hope and pray that the generosity of spirit


that we saw in him, the spirit of justice and fairness and honesty,


and all those things, that we will see that in all our leaders around


the world. When did you see him? I think I first saw him in Parliament


Square as a young MP, when he came to, we opened the statue for him in


Parliament Square. And then a bit later there was a concert in Hyde


Park and I saw him again. Don't ask me what I said because I could


barely speak, he was this magnificent big figure, even as an


elder man. He met Mrs Thatcher and did lots of things. There wasn't


anybody he wouldn't meet. That was what people were saying earlier.


Actually don't you choose my friends for me said Jesse Jackson, he said


he would speak to whatever he wished after going to jail? I want to say


as a Labour politician people like Frank Dobson and Dick Hayburn caught


up in the antiapartheid movement, were real foot soldiers for Oliver


Tambo, there were a Kenship for a whole generation of Labour


politicians and the union movement, in huge solidarity with South Africa


when others didn't want to even join the cause. I think it is important


to remember that tonight a real struggle breaking out in society


with songs and albums and a youth movement. But if we think back to


the 1980s at moments in Britain when we felt divided, there were many


foot olders campaigning and raising money in the Labour Party, and also


in wider society, the churches, who tonight will feel close to Mandela


because of the struggle. I called him a giant of a man, a peaceful and


loving gianted. There are so many towns all over Britain who have


Mandela Square or buildings, it is somebody that you come across,


children know about him. Oh yes, we do. And not only did we sing the


songs # Free Nelson Mandela


We actually lived with the sense of hope, almost like a Messiah figure,


in a sense, but not a distant one, one that was present and one that


was real. I think for me, as a Christian, this sense of


forgiveness, which is at the heart. I visited Robben Island back in


2002, I think it was, I went to Robben Island and actually went


inside the cell. The whole time I was there, for me it was a spiritual


experience, and I remember there were tourists there taking


photographs and I was feeling quite cross saying, you know the story of


Moses by the burning bush, where he is told to stake his shoes off


because he as standing on holy ground. I felt myself thinking stop


taking the photographs, you are on holy ground, you know. I just hope


that the world will look at Nelson Mandela's life and will pattern


those qualities that he exhibited. That sense of dignity, of quiet


dignity, not many people have that. No, and in that sense he was a


humble, but regal figure in a sense. All generations have these figures.


But I think Nelson Mandela crossed so many generations from lawyer to


freedom fighter, imprisoned, we don't see him for 27 years, we just


have that poster of him and he comes out as a much older man, that moved


lots of people. And then when you talk about buildings named after him


often that was an act of rebellion in Britain in the 1970s to do that.


Then this universal statesman-like figure that has emerged in the last


20 years or so. That is a huge span of change over that lifetime,


dignity throughout, but a rage and anger for freedom, for justice and


for peace, I think is essential to the man's personality. That whole


idea that he made such a massive sacrifice, and his family made a


sacrifice? A huge sack fireworks I listened earlier to his --


sacrifice, I listened earlier to his daughter speaking and the sense of


distance she was talking about. I thought what do you expect, you have


locked this man away, emotions, all these things. The sacrifice he has


made, the sacrifice of his family, for the world. He comes out of


prison and straight into the world? Where does he get the time to love.


I just hope not only South Africa but the world will see his sense of


justice, his sense of compassion, and clearly even for a very long


time when he is not the leader of South Africa, he's still concerned


about the well being of people. As we have said earlier, and is


prepared to stand up and discuss things that he absolutely disagrees


with in South Africa. Challenges the status quo, whether Thabo Mbeki or


the problems in the ANC? On HIV, domestically on the ANC, on the Iraq


War, on a whole range of things he took very different views to other


leaders both in his country and throughout. I think lining up behind


what he saw as social justice wherever he found it. And this idea


that he would be remembered, there would be this enormous outpouring


from all over the world, and then South Africa needs to move on again.


Yes, and South Africa is at a critical junction, because I was


there about a year ago and the ANC has to make this transition from the


party that fought, if you like for freedom to a governing force that


can be seen to be there for everyone and not just for a single group of


people. There are elements particularly youth and younger


elements I think within South Africa and within the ANC that are


frustrated with the lack of progress. And also in a sense moving


from being a one-party state to a multiparty democracy, that is very


fragile. This may in a sense, because it rekick-starting this idea


of goodness coming out of this in South Africa? I hope it will, I hope


it will, and the potential is there for life to grow from this death as


it were. I hope that we will see the beginnings of other Mandelas. I was


going to say because actually what he has is he's almost delivered a


blueprint for modern leadership? It is quite a lot to live up to. I


think leadership, yes, but 27 years in prison, denied that life is an


extraordinary sacrifice to have made as an individual. No-one can relief


that, and we don't want anyone to relief that, so in a sense -- relive


that, and in a sense that is part of the 21 century for freedom. It is


for women, people of colour, more latterly for gay men and women to


self-lateralise to be who you want to be, and he's one of the big


fathers of that fight. We take it for granted now, but for most of the


century it was denied us. It must be also for white people, it must be a


huge burden to walk around thinking you are the only thing that matters!


You know. So, yes. Will you be doing special service tomorrow, presumably


parishioners will come and talk to you? I hope that we will not just


tomorrow, but for some time, you know, helping people to reflect on


this loss in a way that is going to be constructive and creative. Again,


an extraordinary funeral, he wants and will be buried in a small


village. It is impossible to imagine not to have some massive memorial


service for him? Absolutely, you would expect a freedom and justice


Nelson Mandela was not just a hero of our time but a hero of all time.


The first President of a free South Africa. My thoughts and prayers are


with him and his family at this time, an extraordinary man. I'm one


of the countless millions who drew inspiration from Nelson Mandela's


life. My very first political action, the first thing I ever did


that involved an issue or policy or politics was a protest against


apartheid. I would study his words and his writings, the day he was


released from prison he gave me a sense of what human beings can do


when guided by their hopes and not their fears. Like so many around the


globe I cannot fully imagine my own life without the example that Nelson


Mandela set. I'm joined now by the founder of the Specials, and the


BBC's Creative Director. First of all, it was Jew song, the song that


we all know now? Free Nelson Mandela. It was, yeah, it had an


effect, I wrote it when I went to his 65th anniversary party at the


Alexandra Palace, a lot of people singing about him, and I was already


working on a song, I had a bit of instrumental music and I put the


lyrics to that, which was probably the key to it being so happy.


Otherwise I would have probably written a dour ballad or something.


Alan, those son sets, there was 19 -- consorts, it was 1988 and 1990


when he came? The concert the catalyst was the song. And the


promoter came to me and brought some, a senior, an ex-BBC person to


add gravitas to the person and really said will you do this. We had


to depoliticise it because it was the BC, remember the Thatcher --


BBC, remember the Thatcher Government was still in power, and


there was still a sense that South Africa, that movement, the ANC


movement and the antiapartheid Government couldn't be supported in


quite that way. But there was Trevor Huddleston. Let me bring you in, you


met Nelson Mandela? Not in the same space, he was frail at the time and


the unveiling of the statue in Parliament Square. We heard David


Lammy saying he couldn't say anything because he was overcome,


culturally what has been the importance of Nelson Mandela? Well,


it is, that is a very big question, he's been the great poetic figure of


our time. In terms of represented freedom, integrity, his beauty of


spirit, his love of dance, his sense of humour and his dress style. He


championed an of a an aesthetic. I see him as being not only an African


statesman but the commensurate statesman of our time of. The reason


I say this is because he demonstrated more than anybody else


in our times how you transfigure the great burden of suffering and


expectation into forgiveness, grace and dignity. He held the hand of


South Africa through its most difficult time and calmed the nerves


of those who were afraid of what might befall it during that


transition. He helped the nation become itself. And he taught all of


us around the world how to bear difficulty with dignity. And to work


with De Klerk and Botha to work with these people? To work with difficult


and tricky people. One of his greatest legacies, actually, is


time. I always say he taught us the wise use of time. He, for many other


people 27 years would have been a great reservoir of bitterness and


anger and rage, actually the 27 years was converted very quietly


into political power and great respect and a kind of iconic


authority. He turned time into something else. You have to go back


to the great duddist amongst to see anything like that and its effect on


world politics. As you were growing up, did he have a big influence on


you, his incarceration? The first time I heard about him was his 65th


birthday. Someone did a survey and they couldn't find Nelson Mandela's


name in the Houses of Parliament but his name was starting to come out.


If you think about the global audience. That was 600 million. We


say now Geldof, all the things that have gone after, that was the


revolutionary, to bring the world together on television to support


him? We live in the world of the internet now and it is not so


surprising that people can conGLE gate in that way -- congregate in


that way. But to bring together 600 people, and the amazing thing about


it is it grew, it started, someone would say yes and someone else


would. Even for the BBC it was apolitical. Do you remember that


day, the 1988 concert? Yes I do, I do, I watched it on TV, I couldn't


afford to be there. For me it was a moment of great unity. One just felt


even in your little room you felt you were connecting with a great


movement all over the world. A great groundswell of desire to bring about


this change and to free Nelson Mandela. It was one of those moments


branded in one's memory in one's time here on the planet. You were up


dancing with everyone? I was dancing in my little bedsit, yes. Thank you


all very much indeed. That's all from this extended programme. We


leave you with footage from the film about Nelson Mandela, starring Idris


Elba, which had the UK premier scheduled tonight. I have cherished


the idea of a free democratic society where all persons live


together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which


I hope to live for and achieve. But, if needs be it is


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